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Bowen Kerins - Episode 43

JBS Show·podcast_episode·1h 18m·analyzed·Oct 4, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Bowen Kerins shares competitive pinball journey, tutorial legacy, and game design work.

Summary

Bowen Kerins, a legendary pinball player (ranked 13th globally) and renowned tutorial video creator, discusses his origin story in competitive pinball, his breakthrough win at the 1994 PAPA World Championship at age 18, the creation and impact of his Papa Tutorial video series on YouTube, his consulting work on rule sets for Spooky Pinball and Barrels of Fun games (Alice Cooper, Rick and Morty, Labyrinth, Toy Story 5), and insights into competitive pinball preparation and tournament formats.

Key Claims

  • Bowen won the PAPA World Championship at age 18 in his third tournament ever (1994), initially unaware he had qualified for the semifinals

    high confidence · Bowen describes detailed memory of the tournament qualification rules and being told 'the semifinals is starting. You made it.'

  • The first Papa Tutorial video was Family Guy, filmed in Pittsburgh using a new camera rig system developed for Papa 13 finals

    high confidence · Bowen describes the origin of tutorial videos and references the camera rig created by Keith and Randy Elwin called Tourney Cam

  • Bowen has made approximately 100+ Papa Tutorial videos on YouTube over many years

    medium confidence · Bowen estimates 'I don't know how many videos there are, 100?' when asked about video count

  • Barrels of Fun's first game rollout (Labyrinth) has the best build quality of any first game from a new company in 20 years

    medium confidence · Bowen states 'Our first game rollout is the best first game rollout In 20 years' when discussing Labyrinth's build quality

  • Bowen has won 4 out of 6 24-hour battle tournaments he has attended, with every finish in the top 4

    high confidence · Jamie provides context: 'he's won 4 out of the 6 24 battles since Yes And every finish being in the top 4'

Notable Quotes

  • “I won the world championship as a freaking 18 year old in my third ever tournament”

    Bowen Kerins @ Early in interview — Describes breakthrough competitive moment that established his elite player status

  • “The video has to be entertaining from go. It's not entertaining the first two minutes on YouTube. You're out of there.”

    Bowen Kerins @ Tutorial video discussion — Explains philosophy behind Papa Tutorial success and content strategy

  • “I'd like to see a better played Labyrinth than this one right here because the minute a code comes they update it they do everything. It's just gorgeous.”

    Bowen Kerins @ Labyrinth discussion — Praises Barrels of Fun's post-release support and game quality

  • “Your energy is your currency in a 24-hour battle, and you're not going to get more energy.”

    Bowen Kerins @ 24-hour battle preparation discussion — Key strategy advice for endurance tournament play

  • “The people who deserve the biggest credit for Labyrinth are the people building the machines because this game could be great in every other way, but if the build quality doesn't hold up, there's no way that Labyrinth sells what it does.”

    Bowen Kerins @ Labyrinth discussion — Emphasizes manufacturing quality as critical to game success

Entities

Bowen KerinspersonJamie BurchillpersonDonovan WadepersonBarrels of FuncompanySpooky PinballcompanyDavid Van NesspersonLabyrinthgameToy Story 5game

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Bowen indicates Spooky Pinball limited his consulting role to local-only after initial work on Alice Cooper and Rick and Morty, suggesting potential cost constraints or operational focus change

    medium · Bowen: 'they just kind of said Well we're only going with locals So unless you're going to move to Wisconsin Then We're all set'

  • ?

    community_signal: Papa Tutorial video series credited as foundational educational content that taught new players game strategies for 10+ years; estimated 100+ videos with lasting impact on player skill development

    high · Bowen describes players referencing strategies learned from videos years later; acknowledged by hosts as critical to pinball education ecosystem

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Tournament format evolution from qualifying elimination format to inclusive match-play formats has significantly increased player participation and retention, making competitive pinball more accessible

    high · Bowen credits Pidberg format (15 years ago) for moving away from elimination-style events; now sees widespread adoption of inclusive tournament structures

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Bowen's tutorial video strategy deliberately prioritizes entertainment value and accessibility for first-time viewers over comprehensive coverage; intentionally varies strategies for fun/showmanship rather than pure optimization

    high · Bowen explains first 2 minutes are critical for retention; describes playing Theater of Magic with Mr. Bill doll for entertainment value rather than optimal tournament strategy

  • ?

    personnel_signal: David Van Ness's animation and choreography work on Spooky and Barrels games demonstrates specialized expertise in making subtle visual details that enhance gameplay feel without being consciously noticed by players

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.236

0:00
Hello, my name is Jamie Burchill, and you are listening to and or watching our podcast called Wormhole Pinball Presents.
0:10
Today, I'm very, very excited to be joined by two great individuals. Today, I'm really excited to be joined by a very special guest. And today, I'm very excited to be joined by two awesome guests all the way from Ireland. Hello and welcome to the Wormhole and our podcast we call Wormhole Pinball Presents. An interview series we started to highlight those in pinball and arcades. And for podcast number 43, I'm bringing out another OG in pinball. And when I bring out a big gun, I have to bring out my buddy. That's right. Donovan Wade, Twitch co-host. Donovan, today we are joined by YouTube star of Papa Fame Tutorial. And currently 13th ranked player in the world Mr. Bowen Cairns Welcome back to the Wormhole Bowen Hey it's nice to talk to you again I gotta come back down I know That was a fun day The first time I met him I'd met him before but the first time I really met him Was here at the Wormhole We did the Labyrinth tutorial video And I've never been more nervous in my life For my technology not to F up It turned out great It turned out great. Yeah, it really did. It was a great video. It turned out good. And you know what? We've got to do another one. We've got to do a pop tutorial video at some point. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. That would be awesome. Well, I've told this story before, but I knew nothing about Labyrinth when it came out. Like, there was just a few, you know, select people who knew. Yeah, you weren't NDA worthy. I wasn't NDA worthy. But I knew something was going on. And the day that everything dropped that morning, that Friday, I was just kind of scrolling through our Facebook. And I saw Steve Bowden shared like a recent stream we'd done. I think it was Dungeon Door Defender. And Bowen commented. He was like, hey, this place looks great. So I took a screenshot immediately. I sent it to Jamie. I was like, what do we have to do to get Bowen down here? And he said, five minutes later, he sends me a picture of all you guys. I'm like, what is going on? My wife says hello. We had lunch with Bowen. And Bowen talked math with us, and it was a fascinating conversation, actually. And Janine wanted to say hello to you. I mean, we need to talk math for however long this is, and people will be pissed off. No, it was good. We were talking, what's it called? Common core. That's what we were talking about. And it was actually a really good conversation. Not the common core. No, we're not going to go into that. All right. We're going to jump around a little bit. I like to start with origin stories, Bowen, right? It's just kind of, as a recruiter, that's how I am. So you grew up in Massachusetts, and I'm sorry I'm wearing this hat.
Alice Cooper
game
Rick and Mortygame
Lyman Sheetsperson
Papaorganization
Brian Savageperson
Eric Kripkeperson
Final Resistancegame
TNA (Total Nonstop Action Wrestling)game
PAPA World Championship 1994event

high · Bowen describes Van Ness's work on Alice, Morty, and TNA animations, noting 'things go right in a game you don't really notice them. It just feels the way it ought to feel'

  • ?

    product_concern: Barrels of Fun's first game (Labyrinth) explicitly praised as having exceptional build quality that exceeds first releases from other new manufacturers in past 20 years

    high · Bowen: 'Our first game rollout is the best first game rollout In 20 years' with specific credit to manufacturing team and quality control people like Jessica

  • ?

    product_strategy: Barrels of Fun has confirmed Toy Story 5 as their second commercial release, continuing partnership with Bowen on rule set design

    high · Bowen confirms ongoing work: 'I'm absolutely working with them On Toy Story 5 which is our second game'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Evolution of Papa Tutorial video capture from single top-down camera to multi-camera setup with scoreboard visibility and playfield zoom capability enabled more sophisticated content production

    high · Bowen describes progression from vertical/horizontal phone-optimized playfield-only footage to multi-cam production over several years

    • 2:49
    Go ahead. I don't play for the Red Sox. You don't root for the Red Sox? I don't play for the Red Sox. Oh, all right. It's like, oh, my God, I hate these fans. Guess what? People are fans of teams. Are you on that team? I mean, the people who are on the Red Sox like the people who are on the Yankees. So shut it. That's true. The fans, not so much. You're ruining this for me, though, because I wore this for another Bostonian, Colin Alshimer, when he was on the podcast. So it's not on purpose. I just always wear a Yankee hat. You always wear the Yankee hat. Yeah, the Yankees are terrible. It's clear it's October.
    3:26
    The Red Sox are still playing, and the Yankees are not playing anymore. It's, like, obvious the Red Sox are better. We have a bye. Maybe they'll meet up in the Bermuda. Maybe. All right, so you grew up in Massachusetts but went to college. You did not grow up in Massachusetts? May as well be the same thing. I grew up in Rhode Island. It's only an hour or two tiny south of there. You know how in Texas you could drive from Houston to Dallas? Yeah. That's more than twice as far as it is from Massachusetts to Rhode Island. Yeah. And there's no Buc-ee's in between. No.
    4:01
    So did you start playing up in New England, or did you start playing when you went to college in California? It was actually neither of those. My family moved to Miami for three years when I was five, and I remember playing some four-player Gottlieb EM that I don't remember what it was at a rec center down there. The game I first remember playing was in a dank basement of a Miami hotel, and it was Sharpshooter. And I only know it was Sharpshooter because I remember it being the game with the crazy light in the corner that if you hit it, it would go off and make a siren and you'd get all shitload of points.
    4:42
    And one time I remember hitting it up and it went through the light and then back through the light again and it was the greatest thing that ever happened to me.
    4:51
    I had no idea what game that was. It wasn't until 20 years later at Pinball Expo in Chicago that I saw that game and then I look up at the back glass and it's Roger Sharp, a person who I had met before. And I'm like, what is happening? That's not right.
    5:10
    And I suddenly realized that when I started playing pinball, Roger Sharp is staring at me when I'm six years old. And here I am at least 10 years later still playing pinball. So we all kind of start out as beginners. And then, you know, as we get more practice, we're kind of like, okay, I'm pretty good at this. Let me do some tournaments. You know, I might win a tournament here or there. Some of us. When did you kind of realize though that I'm not just good at this I might be world class good at this So you're going to like this When I went to college There really weren't any tournaments There were a few tournaments but it's nowhere near What it is now with people having weeklies And local events There are hundreds of events now Back when I first went to college There were basically three events The Pinball Expo in Chicago Papa in New York City and the IFPA tournament which was also in Chicago and the first tournament I remember going to was in Chicago at the Pinball Expo and you won't even consider this to be a tournament now but it just had 20 mystery castles from the Alvin G company lined up we had a mystery castle the entire tournament I'm not kidding is $5 a game to play a mystery castle record your score top eight scores play off uh and the winner gets a mystery castle there's no other prize there's no other qualifying uh and that's did you leave or did you just well i played i'm just first time i've ever been to an event like that so i enjoyed the event i tried the tournament i didn't qualify um then a few months later papa in new york city is coming up i'm going a college in California. They have a qualifying tournament in San Francisco where the winner gets a free trip all the way to New York to be put up and flown over and then play in the tournament.
    7:12
    I actually did amazingly well considering what I was expecting to do when I got third. It was very close.
    7:21
    I won $75. Hey now. Most I've ever won as a college student, $75, no joke. and I decided I was going to go to the tournament anyway so that I could learn and meet. I had never met some of the greatest players in the world like Lyman, and the guy who had just beat me had offered to be a doubles partner. There was a doubles tournament as well as a singles tournament. So I was like, okay, I'll fly to New York. Maybe I'll make a little money in the doubles tournament, but I'll at least see my family because they're on the East Coast, and we'll see how it goes. And I qualified I played a lights out game Of Street Fighter 2 There you go And a couple other good games But in that tournament You played 8 games And they totaled up your scores across all 8 games To see whether you would qualify or not Which is also very strange now They just never do that now That's grueling Yeah well there are tournaments you have to play 8 games But don't just add up your scores It makes some games worth A ton Like near nothing So I make it to the first round of the quarterfinals And I don't do very well It's three games I take first on Star Trek Next Generation But I get Third and fourth on the other two games Which were Judge Dredd And Tommy And so I'm out in the first round of the finals. I go up to the hotel room. I change into nice clothes because there's a party going on at the same time. I'm like, all right, I'm going to come back down, clean clothes on, watch the finals, see if Lyman wins this thing in defense or whoever, whatever. I come down, and they're like, where are you? The semifinals is starting. You made it. That's not true. How is this possible? It turned out I was in a five-way tie for the last qualifying spots, and they totaled up the scores like they did in the qualifying. And because I had won on Next Gen, I qualified. I played terrible in the other two games, but because I played great on Next Gen, I was in. And so here I am, a college kid, 18 years old, in the semifinals of the World Championship, now dressed in the nines. I qualified. And basically at that point, I'm like, ah-ha-ha-ha.
    9:50
    It's all found money. And it's all, you know how it is when your pressure is off. My pressure was gone because I was already out.
    10:00
    And so I make it to the wizard mode on Tommy in the semifinals. I crush next gen again. I go straight to the final four as number one seed. In the final, I get $750 million on Tommy again. I win again on next gen. And I won the world championship As a freaking 18 year old In my third ever tournament Wow So that was the first tournament I ever won Holy You know So that's what told me that I was going to be okay At this Yeah I think you're going to be alright That can be rough I won my very first tournament too And sometimes you can only go down Yeah but you didn't win a major If the first tournament you ever win Involves being interviewed on Japanese radio And being offered a spot On the Tonight Show There really is only one way From there and it's down Did you go to the Tonight Show?
    11:04
    Like an idiot I did not go to the Tonight Show I go to the Tonight Show I'm going to fail this class in college And clearly in retrospect The right choice is to just fail the class Go on the Tonight Show And deal with it What was it Jay Leno Or was it Conan It was like the first year with Jay Leno Okay Back in this was 1994 So Right when Jay Leno Yeah right when Jay Leno took over And It was before the Conan thing happened Way before that 1994 Maybe you should do that Like Lime and Cheese was on the Today Show Rick Steader who won Papa 2 was on Dave Letterman It was like Not unusual it was just very strange to me But I had a great old time I should have gone Ah no worries you went to Stanford I mean you know You would have failed it If you had gone to Florida College in Lakeland Florida you would have skipped it But you went to Stanford I'm a moccasin in years Easy flight though Should have just gone down and gone back one day That's true Do you remember Your first Pop-up tutorial video You did on YouTube Do you remember how that came about I think we looked back at one point It was a family guy Was the first video That was released May not have been the first one we filmed But it was kind of a lark I was working in Pittsburgh like you said I live in Massachusetts in Salem where we kill people for tourism yeah so I was working in Pittsburgh every couple months with the school system there they were using some of the books I write and the day would end and we're like what are we going to do now let's all hang out and play pinball at the Papa facility and they had just bought this new camera system The camera rigs have just kind of come into favor Keith and Randy Elwin Created a camera rig called Tourney Cam For Cal Extreme and some other events In the West Coast And basically it helped the Papa Crew Build the same kind of rig For Showing the finals And so they did that for the first time At Papa 13 It was a riot, I was in that final It was crazy because You never do things on a pinball machine a pop of 11, sorry. You never do things on a pinball machine and get reactions.
    13:41
    And there's a video on YouTube if you want to look at this. I made an outlay and save on Adam's family in that final that was, well, very lucky, but it looked cool. It looks real cool. And then you get this crowd of 150 people behind you just cheering and shouting while you're still on the machine. It's very strange. And that was new Like now that's not that unusual To have people reacting To something that happens because of The streaming So they got these cameras And I'm like what else can we do with these cameras Like why don't you just Why don't you just play a game hook me up with a mic And I'll just talk my way through the game And Whatever a few people will watch it And if it works We'll just keep making them We only had the one top-down camera. So all you can see is the play field. We used to publish them in two ways, vertical and horizontal, so people watching on the phone could just watch it directly.
    14:47
    And it was like that for several years until we got the multi-cam. That now allows us to show the scoreboard or zoom in. So for some years also we played with, like, a little camera right in front of the lockdown bar. And so I have to, like, finagle my way around that while playing and try to make sure that nobody notices things like that. That first video was a family guy, and I think I got to the TV wizard and did well. And then we just kind of went from there.
    15:19
    I don't know how many videos there are, 100? Yeah. People say you made a video. There was a game someone earlier this year started telling me, Talking to me about strategy on a game That I didn't remember And then they complained to me They were like well you taught me this strategy I don't know this stuff It's right there Okay yeah and that was 10 years ago I mean they've been so important Yeah absolutely For the growth of pinball I mean how many people watch these machines Before they play them You know they go to a tournament and they haven't played a family guy, how many people go and look at that? It's just unbelievable. Yeah. I mean, that was my routine. You know, when I first started playing, you know, I had to learn how to play. But then when I started getting good, it was like, all right, I need to figure out how to play jackpot or, you know, world poker tour or something. And I just go to Bowen's video. It's like 15, 20 minutes. Give me the good stuff.
    16:22
    One of the ones I really like was, and I always remember this one, Iron Maiden. I remember you were telling us, you know, don't hit the loops. The loops are dangerous. And two seconds later, you hit a loop and it goes. You hit a loop and you drain, right? You know, bad ex. So I always remember. So as a I used to be a high school math teacher. You have to that that was that that happened on purpose.
    16:46
    My plan that game was to lose a ball by shooting a loop after talking about it because look at that. And then it becomes more memorable.
    16:58
    And people the more the dumbest thing you can say about something and the more someone can remember it by the action that's how you want it to be. Also, and I think this is something I don't know why I'm good at this because I shouldn't be. The video has to be entertaining from go. It's not entertaining the first two minutes on YouTube. You're out of there. Yeah. And some people are coming to this for the very first time, and they don't like pinball. They don't know pinball. They're like, what is this thing? And they watch the first two minutes of the video, and hopefully something funny happens, or they're not coming back. And so compared to some of the other videos that are very thorough, they can be much longer than my video. They're like, here is everything you need to know about Avatar. Like, I don't want that. I don't want that video. I want a video that if I watch just the first five minutes, I get a very good idea of what to do. And if I watch the first ten minutes, I get a little better idea of what to do. And so one thing that I do before playing a game is I think through, this is the order in which I want things to go. I'm going to do this first, and I'm going to do this second, and I'm going to do this third. And those are probably not the most efficient ways to play the game if I were to play the same game in competition, Especially games that are boring and one dimensional Nobody wants to see me Shoot the same shot over and over again It's just not fun And other people can do it better than I can At this point So if that's what you're into You can just watch those kids In every tournament do this over and over again They can do it We'll get to that But if you want A more fun game at Theatre of Magic Yeah Then you want a Mr. Bill doll On the lockdown bar so that if something goes wrong I can just slam it and have it say Oh no And I can vary up the strategy And play for modes And play for The third multi-ball Do the things that are interesting but wouldn't be part of A normal tournament strategy Well you did great jobs With them and we love that you're bringing them back That's awesome I've been back, I've been continuing to make the videos Ty Ueda is the partner right now He takes care of all the camera stuff And all the Editing we just finished And are ready to release a Godzilla video Awesome It is 80 minutes long And it is one game It is one game Continuous And Involves probably the best Flasher joke I ever make All right I can wait to see it We have to watch 75 minutes before it comes
    19:50
    I reached out to our Discord channel and asked for some help and some questions for you. And my good friend Austin wants to know, when you were on stage at TPF and defeated all nine reactors on TNA live and in person, how did that feel? Because the crowd went absolutely nuts. That was one of the greatest live experiences I can remember.
    20:12
    And just to be in front of a crowd of that size and that much alcohol is a treat. And we did make some changes to the game. Like we set the game for five balls. Okay. People didn't know that. So when I started playing, I was like, all right, maybe we'll get as far as we can in five balls. And it started going real well.
    20:37
    And when we got to Reactor 8 and beginning of Reactor 9, it's like, okay, let's mess around with this a little bit.
    20:44
    It's unbelievable. You get the crowd on the toes and you're like, here we are in Reactor 9. All we got to do is do this, but I'm not going to do that. We're going to go for multi-ball. We're going to do all this other stuff and just mess with people and then drain.
    20:58
    And people think, oh, you didn't get it. And then, boom, there's another ball. But it's Showmanship in a way And then Immediately after that The Spooky Crew Stepped up and then they announced That I was being brought on To consult for them as a Rules designer On Alice Cooper And then Rick and Morty And then they just kind of said Well we're only going with locals So unless you're going to move to Wisconsin Then We're all set And yeah That's how it rolls It was a treat to work for them Just to be able to work in pinball At all And I've had the honor Of being able to work on Final Resistance For Multimorphic and now Labyrinth And Labyrinth's so good It is so good I just played it Before we were on I got 40 million Not terrible But this one is set really hard Because this is number 24 And Because there's so many barrels Employees that come and play here They make sure this thing sings And I'd like to see a better played Labyrinth than this one right here Because the minute a code comes They update it They do everything. It's just gorgeous. Yeah, speak to the labyrinth, you know. Yeah, like you've done three titles with David Van Ness, right?
    22:37
    Yeah, David, a lot of people don't remember that Van Ness was working at Spooky as well, and he did a lot of work on Rob Zombie, and then he did all the animations on Alice Cooper. He did the animations on TNA, and you don't think there are animations on TNA because it feels like an 80s game, but there are all these backgrounds and 3D passes and all sorts of stuff that's in there to make it feel like a VHS version of Pinball. And that takes work. Like, the right work of that nature of animation, choreography, sound, the right work in that doesn't get noticed. Like, you just know, you just feel right. When something's wrong, you're like, oh, what's that? Why are they using the same font they used in Ninja Turtles? But like Things go wrong and you notice them But if things are going right in a game You don't really notice them It just feels the way it ought to feel To you And Van Ness is magic at that His work On Morty And Alice as well We've seen the Alice animations of like the Frankenstein The Marionette style They use the artwork That had been provided by the artist and then just kind of creates pivot points and animates them literally on the field. And that was great. I haven't really seen other games do that.
    24:09
    So working with him on Labyrinth, he has a terrific eye for those details and to notice when a choreography isn't quite right or when something is out of sync or the ways something could be improved. he's amazing at that I think I'm very good at that as well I have an eye for those kind of details but he's just about the best at it also at Barrels is Brian Savage and his work on sculpts and his work with Hasbro in the past he has the eye for detail as well but they're all different details they're a whole different set of details and what David is really good at poking at. So those two together as the creators of the company, they really are symbiotic. And he's done a great job of bringing in people like Phil Grimaldi.
    25:11
    And he did a bad job bringing me in. He doesn't need me. I could just run with Phil. But what's been great is being able to come down, see the game, play the game, work with Eric, the programmer, Eric Kripke, and improve things over time. When we're right next to each other, I could say, oh yeah, this thing is off by this many seconds, or this slideshow needs to go right at this moment instead of that moment. And then Eric will just type away, and five minutes later, the game does it. And it's like, good lord. So he's amazing. Everyone on the whole team is amazing. The people who deserve the biggest credit for Labyrinth are the people building the machines. because this game could be great in every other way, but if the build quality doesn't hold up, there's no way that Labyrinth sells what it does or succeeds the way it has. It has to have this perfect build quality and the support that if something does go wrong on someone's home machine, you got it fixed. You got any replacement parts, you got whatever you need.
    26:18
    For the first game of a new company, The build quality of this game Is as good as anything I've ever seen People say What about Wizard of Oz Okay well Wizard of Oz was good But that was 12 years ago They had these node boards that kept failing Over and over again So in some ways Our first game rollout is the best first game rollout In 20 years I'm not going to argue with you I know almost everyone on that line I played Bimba And they're the best We know the quality control people And I know that person I know Jessica very well So without Giving anything away when you say Our company does this mean This is going to be a continuing relationship Here? Why would you not do that?
    27:09
    I'm absolutely working with them On Toy Story 5 which is our second game Yeah great It's going to be great I think the most important thing to me For the next game is that we eat the ball As many times as possible And there should be guns Somewhere You're going to need those As long as we get those two things I heard it was Matrix 4 We appease the audiences And then we're all set Everything else is great Keeping your finger on the pulse Pinball news Yeah he is Please don't record this No not at all So have you ever considered you know Designing your own machine I know you're Kind of in the rule set area I mean Have you thought You know because we know Scott he's Kind of homebrewed his own thing and you know I know your math and engineering Are kind of you know A little hand in hand there but It's interesting like I've never had The vision for a full layout. I've had visions for little bits and pieces, and one thing I'm pretty good at doing is taking someone else's layout and saying, oh, if this were here instead of here, that would open up this path a little better, and then we could even put a second shot in there. We could take away this shot and make this post go that way. So those kind of tweaks I think I would be very good at. I am very good at.
    28:41
    And I had a hand in the design of the layout for Rick and Morty and I've had a hand in the design and layout for Labyrinth. And I've had a hand in the design and layout for Toy Story 5.
    28:55
    But if you handed me the reins and said, go make your own game, I really don't know. I've never had that visual. Maybe it's just the type of person I am. Doesn't mean I wouldn't do it someday. But I think it might be There are probably other people with other better ideas than me Who deserve to be the lead designer But I guess you never know It depends on whether we can get the license for Toy Story 6 There you go Fascinated with Tom Hanks Let's pivot to competitive pinball My friend Wesley on Discord asks Since the 24-hour final battle of Sanctum is coming up in November What do you do to prepare? Some context for the audience The first 24 hour battle Bowen attended was in 2016 And he's won 4 out of the 6 24 battles since Yes And every finish being in the top 4 Yes So what do you do to prepare for this craziness Because we want to do one here but I am Not excited So My answer is going to be very weird Yeah cool Alright the first piece of preparation is do not under any circumstances pull an all-nighter the day before for your job. Okay.
    30:18
    That's the year I got fourth. But the other preparation is there isn't any. I actually don't prepare. I don't have any preparation for any of the tournaments I attend except possibly for looking through lists of games and learning a little more about a few of them.
    30:41
    But there are two very important pieces of success at 24-hour battles. Number one, sit. Yeah. That's it.
    30:53
    Don't go up there between rounds playing extra games on the machines you like. Right. Do it. You don't do that. You've got 22 more hours. Stop. Don't do that. Sit down.
    31:03
    Is it your turn? It's not your turn? Sit. Okay. Why are you standing on a concrete floor when you could be sitting and preserving your energy? Your energy is your currency in a 24-hour battle, and you're not going to get more energy. You can temporarily get more energy, but it's bad news also. So the second piece of advice is no caffeine for 16 hours.
    31:28
    No way. For the first 16 hours. Oh, okay. Wow. So you want caffeine? Go for it. What happens? You go up on your caffeine, and then some hours later, you're done. You're spiking down, and you're going to spike down below where your baseline was. Or if you just keep drinking it. Oh, you get more caffeine. I don't know. I'm just saying more. Maybe some people can do that. I drink like eight to ten Diet Cokes a day. Oh, boy. So I think I'll be all right. You're going to have a hard time with that extra place. I'll go 15. So I just I water I water I water some more Then I like Maybe go on to some lemonades Or whatever and then when it hits 16 hours I start thinking about it And I'm like okay I might need some now And I'll take like A couple sips of a coke But it's just All you're really doing is Trying to conserve your energy And Then you need the extra two hours to drive home So That's why he's ranked 13th Yeah that's why And I'm in 29th I'd be ranked higher if those tournaments Were actually worth anything They destroyed the value of the 24 hour battle Because there's no final And it's like come on man The whole tournament is a final You're playing match play the whole time 24 hours running out you go like alright you won Come on But that's not the way That the rules of the ranking system Work so so what Is it kind of going into that what do you think About the current state of competitive Pinball whether it's you know Format changes or As you mentioned earlier you know a lot of young Guns out there that are just crushing Do you Think it's competitive now than it was say In the past or maybe equally as competitive There are way more Great events now than there were 10 years ago than there were 20 And then there were more then than there were 20 years ago and more than there were 30 years ago and that is great I think that there have been there's been an increase in the number of formats that are match play formats instead of just qualifying formats and an increase in formats that don't eliminate players so the people who come and it's their first tournament they don't like an old qualifying style or that expo that I play at you show up you pay five bucks you play the game and then basically someone tells you you lose. And then you want to pay another five bucks? Not really.
    34:03
    Okay, I guess. And then, oh, you lost again. Sorry. And that's the entire experience for most players in older tournaments. So when we put together Pidberg,
    34:16
    it's almost 15 years ago now, it was like, all right, we want the same experience for every player. If you're terrible, you should have just as many games to play as the expert.
    34:31
    And I think those tournaments did a really good job of that, and now we see a lot more tournaments using that style and format. And what it ends up doing is bringing more people in and making people want to come back and making people want to join leagues and make people want to make more tournaments like that.
    34:49
    There's more money right now, it seems like. There's a lot of tournaments with bigger and bigger prize pools, but also bigger entry fees.
    34:59
    I don't know whether that's good or bad. I know that we're picking a lot of money from some people who are just learning how to play just to try.
    35:08
    Some of the entry fees are going to the venues and that's fine. We just paid $150 to Interium for four days at Papa 21 and that tournament was wonderful. They shut down the whole place for us four days in a row including a weekend so that we could all celebrate and play pinball together. And, yeah, I think at that point it's well worth $150 for every head to be there. And, of course, these kids won, or Raymond, the old man won. Raymond at age 31 now, I guess, is the second generation of a kid player. I was the youngest winner of Papa when I won, and I was 18. So there's that, and then Raymond's generation, and now this new generation of players who are really good. And they're learning from each other, and they're getting better. They're learning from their experience at events. They're not unbeatable. I've beaten them. I've beaten every single one of them. But they've also kicked my ass plenty of times.
    36:14
    Escher Lefkoff's knocked me out of the last two PAPA tournaments now. I don't know if you got to see this game, But I got 3.6 billion on World Cup soccer In the semifinals at Papa No I watched it I love World Cup so much And I watched what he did And it was just He went 6.8 No extra balls 6.8 to 3.6 It's a beautiful game So if I got to lose to something like that I'm going to lose to something like that all day And that is absolutely fine Anytime So when I see those players gunning and kicking ass It is awesome And some of the things they're doing Like with stage flips They're doing things that I don't know That I can physically ever do And that's great Good for them Doesn't mean they're unbeatable You just gotta bear down and play against the score I think that also is a piece of advice I would give to any tournament player Stop playing their opponent Yeah You really should be rooting for them Because they're playing against the machine It's like a golf course Don't root against them What good does that do So don't whisper Put you in a bad mindset And if you don't want to watch the other person play Fine go somewhere else Come back 10 minutes and look at the score And go alright 170 million on Labyrinth Okay fine let's go At that point it's a replay score But if you're like oh no I'm going to play Escher You've already lost And now I benefit from this because I'm the weird guy on YouTube who taught people how to play, and someone's like, I've got to play you now. How am I going to beat you? I'm like, that's fine. You go ahead. You just keep thinking that, and I'll move on to the next round.
    38:00
    But it also leads to some weirdnesses, like people who are like, oh, you're going to beat me. I'll never be able to beat you. Why are we even playing against each other? And you just kind of poison the well on the match altogether. Like, I don't want to play you anymore. So when you're playing Do you not look at your opponent's score Or I don't even look at my own score What good does it do I guess some people would argue Do I need to play more aggressive Or can I play this a little safer There are times When it is useful Like if you're last player last ball You do want to look at your scores You want to know like do I have only a little chase Do I have a long way to go You can kind of get a general sense of it without having that. I wear glasses. So what I do when I'm walking up to the machine in any final is I take off my glasses, I walk up, I kind of make sure that the player is flashing so that I know it's me, and then I look down and put the glasses on and I go.
    39:06
    But especially on EMs, it does me no good to know where my opponent is. I'm going to play the same strategy. I might as well just go In fact I also think player choice Is weird that way too You might as well play first And put the pressure on your opponent If they feel like oh no I got this much to go then they might not play as well
    39:31
    I don't think a lot of people do that, but I do think a lot of people can psych themselves out with thinking they're way too far behind or that they have a particular thing they've got to do.
    39:43
    Your mindset is important in pinball. The less that's on your mind, the better off you're going to be.
    39:50
    And, you know, whether that's... I actually have talked about this in the frame of my game show experience, which I don't know if you were going to ask about anyway. Oh, we're going to get there. Alright. We're almost there. But not having a lot on your mind mattered very, very much there.
    40:11
    Recognize, like, what am I actually doing? What am I able to control? And it's make your shot. It's not even make your shots.
    40:21
    Just make your shot. Get the ball. A good ball of pinball is 100 individual decisions all made well. And sometimes the game doesn't give you a chance. That's fine. You drain. You step back. You're like, alright, what just happened?
    40:38
    What did I have control over? Why did I lose the ball? Usually there's an answer to that. And the answer could be as simple as I plunged into the A lane when I knew that was a dangerous lane to put the ball down. The F lane on Future Spa at Papa 21 was a good example. You go through F and you're going through the middle.
    40:59
    And that happened to me on one of my balls. And I was like, I knew that. Why did I let that even go there? And then on my next plunge, I was like, I'm going to go make sure it goes completely the other side. And at least we'll start from there. But I shouldn't have made the mistake I made before But another player would just say Ah, it's fucking games Yeah, that's me Right down the middle of you No, have some analysis Of what actually happened And then when you're done with your analysis Just stop There's no reason to beat yourself up for it You just go back and relax Maybe you need more water Maybe you need some food Maybe you just need to sit down So those are the things you can easily control And it takes away A bunch of things One of the other things I tried doing This past pop-up that I think was very successful Is I never looked at the standings In the rounds either So I didn't know Going into a game Whether I needed first or second or third Or whatever to advance I was just trying to play my best game And only when it got to any situation where it actually mattered, would I go and look?
    42:15
    Oh, I actually only need to get third here. That's fine. I'm in a pretty good position. Or I need to win this game outright. Okay. Great.
    42:25
    It's so crazy. We have two friends that play here. I'm going to play a lot. One's a pilot for American Airlines, and one is a firefighter. they have both come up to me separately and the firefighter mike says you know i go into burning buildings a living but if you give me ball three and i need to hit this shot right and then craig who flies massive planes goes you know i could land a 737 in a 40 knot wind but you need me to hit that shot on whatever. I can't hit it. And I get nervous and I'm shaking. I can't control my emotions. Anyone that doesn't think that this is a sport is out of their mind. It's just unbelievable what you guys can do. Have you had a chance to interview Todd McCulloch? No. Okay, so Todd McCulloch has played in the NBA Finals. Twice And he gets more nervous Playing pinball Than he ever did on any Basketball court in his entire career Unbelievable And he has an explanation for it He's like well I was just doing my job And I was also supporting my teammates I knew I needed to do a good job for them as well And so we just all did our jobs And If you can take that approach To some of your pinball play and say, all right, my job right now is to go make that shot or my job right now is to regain control of the ball and keep it simple, your job is never to win a world championship.
    44:10
    The result of winning or losing a world championship is not actually under your control at all. I could have got the same score as I got in Papa 4 in New York City and lost because Dave Stewart or Lyman or Hal Erickson and the other finalists could have come along and played blisteringly hot on those same three games, and then they would be the champion.
    44:32
    So where am I? I'm reliant on outside results to determine my worth. I want to just play good pinball. And then if it happens that I win, great. If it happens that I lose, like that loss to Escher. That loss to Escher was a great game. The previous loss to Escher when we played skateball at Papa 20, that was a bad game. I played like butt.
    45:01
    And that happened because they made an adjustment to the side flipper before we started the game. And I didn't make the proper adjustments to how to handle the kick out from that upper right side. And I played a strategy that was not smart based on what I knew and didn't know about how to flip that game. And Asher played very good strategy And executed And so he won I think these are These are all good things You control what you can control The other things that are out of your control There's no use worrying about them And I'm kind of like you If I'm playing somebody And I lose because I had a bad game I'm going to be upset But I'm upset at myself because I did something wrong But if I have a great game And somebody has an even better game You know What am I going to do I did my best I'm happy with what I did I'm all pumped up right now I want to play in a tournament Let's play today That's why I don't care Whether you're a Yankees fan I don't play for the Red Sox So what control do I have I'll watch them and I'll be happy when they win But like I don't understand fandom I think people who are in those kind of fandoms It can be that the fact that I have this outlet where I can control and play and win things, maybe that's what keeps me from winning. I just have a problem. I have the same perspective on winning. I just have a problem.
    46:35
    I love them. All right. Well, you brought it up. All right. Yeah. We got to ask you about who wants to be a millionaire, okay? Yeah. In 2004, you were on Who Wants to Be a Millionaire with the late and great Regis Philbin. I watched the segment. It's on YouTube. and it was a great watch for anyone uh that's watching this on youtube by editor ryan do me a favor put the link up for that uh youtube segment but i i was sad that you didn't have cable that was the one that got me oh my yeah because like in 1984 i was like 11 12 no whatever I was. And Courtney Cox is like the hottest thing on the planet. And I was like, oh, my God. So fun fact about that music video, though, that I looked up. Sorry, I'm not teasing you. I'm just saying that music video cost me thirty two thousand dollars. I know it did because you used your phone friend and your buddy was good. He was like, B, it's Bruce. But famous movie director Brian De Palma directed that movie. Did you know that? I'm sure you know everything about it. Oh, now.
    47:57
    There's another fun one about this. So this is 2015, I want to say. I took a trip to Hawaii as a vacation.
    48:07
    And one of the other questions that I didn't know was this question about James Mishner in the 50s and 60s. Which one of these is not the title of a James Mishner novel? I kind of reasoned out what someone would write a novel about and picked Hawaii. But Hawaii is kind of, I guess, his most famous book.
    48:28
    So I'm on a tour driving up to a volcano and it's like an hour and a half drive, so the guy's just got to fill the time.
    48:39
    Yeah, and there's all this geography here in the volcanoes. This is just as it was described in that famous book, Hawaii, by James Mishner.
    48:48
    Fucking dumb! Anybody didn't know that. Nobody knew that. That's an old book, man. It's from 19... If I had a different reasoning, I could have gotten that question right.
    49:03
    You got the math question right. I didn't think about the time period, because he's writing these novels in the 50s and 60s, and I knew that. But Hawaii and Alaska became states in 1959 So they would have been perfect Subjects for his books Because they were especially relevant in the 50s and 60s And then if I had gotten That Cleared out I would have got it But anyway it didn't matter It was just something I didn't know Yeah so this was Early 2000 And it was the first season Of the show So you know how it was It was the non-stop craziest Most popular thing on TV I have a 30 million people Watch that So that 30 million people Watched my ugly mug Without the beard It didn't look as good And it's just It's unfathomable I've been waiting for the proper perspective On this and it's never going to come 25 years later I'm like What do you mean that 30 million people watched you on TV?
    50:12
    Or that you blew $32,000 because you didn't know what Courtney Cox was doing in 1984? That's okay. You didn't have cable. You're a lot smarter than I am, right? I went to Florida Southern. It wasn't my choice to not have cable.
    50:32
    Trust me. It was bad, dude. All I did was watch MTV and play video games. I used to watch a UHF station that would show videos. It was V66. It was all the way in the back, and it would show heavy metal music videos. It wasn't on cable. It was on broadcast.
    50:50
    But they never showed it. Or maybe that station didn't exist until, like, 86 or something. Anyway, it was nuts. And it still feels like something that didn't happen. Do you know I tried out for Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? You did? I did. I'm very good at trivia but I know my lane I'm good with geography, history I can do some arts and literature We got in there and they were doing A special edition on Movies You know I know nothing about movies Why would you do that? Why would you sign up for this movie special edition? I got in there and they were like Hey this is going to be a special movie I was like oh no That's the only thing I would have nailed it I would have been like yes And I got on, there wasn't an application. It was an 800 number. You'd call the number and you'd have to put questions in the right order.
    51:43
    If you got them all correct, they would put your name in a list and call back 200 people from that day. Those 200 people would be in round two and they would ask you more questions to put in the right order. If you were one of the 10 best people out of that 200, you were on the show. There was no check at all Whether you were Pretty whether you were Male or Female or other There was just nothing You were just on the show based entirely On your merit of answering questions And the luck of being drawn For the second round It was kind of crazy I don't think they knew It was going to be so That's exactly the way that the British show chooses its contestants. The show is very popular. So they basically said, we're going to do exactly what the British show does and follow that along. But here is the craziest part. The second round, when I typed in the things and I got a call back from the show, maybe two hours after that round, telling me that I was on. That was Monday.
    52:55
    I flew to New York on Wednesday. It taped on Thursday. It aired on Sunday. Wow. The whole thing took less than a week. Wow. When did you get your check?
    53:09
    Less than a week after that, I think. That's pretty good. I have the blue check. It's right over there. The fake check.
    53:18
    The one that they're like, here it is. Look at this blue check. But then I also have a copy of the real check. You've also been involved with Deal or No Deal, correct?
    53:31
    No. Deal on No Deal Island. Okay. So Deal on No Deal Island, I've been working now on the second season. It's been renewed.
    53:43
    They've actually, I think, I don't know if they've filmed or completed filming or they're about to film season two. That's not my job. My job is to basically help build all the structure of how the game will play from the suitcase and the decision-making that the players make and then come up with the proper estimates of how much is going to be paid out, both from a perspective of the TV show, they don't want to give up very little money, and from the perspective of insurance, where if somebody is going to win, potentially last season it was $13 million as the top prize. If someone has a chance to win $13 million, the insurance company wants to know how likely is this and is it actually ever going to get paid out?
    54:33
    And so I answer all those questions for the show along with offering my perspective on different decisions that can be made, different ways the game could be made a little better, and even completely alternate ways we could run the game.
    54:48
    It's great. The producer I work with is the banker. Sounds like you're the banker. I'm the banker's helper. I'm the teller, the assistant.
    55:02
    And basically I give the banker all of the spreadsheet and other information that they need to run the game. And then they run the game. They have lots of experience. They do a really good job of running the game and making the deals interesting and fair.
    55:20
    And then if something weird happens, they'll let me know. It didn't really happen The first season went about as we expected I don't see Anything weird expected in the second season But there's always a chance There's always a chance that someone could win the 13 million dollars And then it's a variable number too So the amount that can be won Is actually determined by all the other episodes Put together So I have to help them configure All the other episodes so they can figure out what the Tackpot should be in the final episode And make that and give them a range for that. It would probably be about $12 million, but it could be as high as $15 million or as low as $8 million, depending on these other factors. So do you create a model for that, or is that just taken after individual events happen?
    56:11
    I write programming code in a language called MATLAB, which is a little bit like Python, but it's something I've worked in for 20-plus years. and I run 100,000 simulated seasons every time they ask me alright you want me to run this right push the button go come do something else for a while come back and then see if the results made sense and if they went better or worse than what they already had but that way you give enough data that you account for all of the strangest things that can happen. 100,000, like, I've also worked on slot machines, I've worked on casino games. In slot machines, 100,000 simulations is not enough. It's nowhere near enough. If you spun a slot machine 100,000 times, you would not see everything. You probably wouldn't see the jackpot. If you run 100,000 simulations of coin flipping, you wasted your time. There's only two things that can happen. and you didn't need to run 100,000 simulations. For something like Deal or No Deal, where there's lots of suitcases and lots of possibilities, it's right about the sweet spot to run that many. I could have tried for fewer simulations, but there's no reason.
    57:37
    All right, we've kept you long enough. We're going to play a rapid-fire question game called the Hurry Up. Are you ready for the Hurry Up? Now, last podcast, I had an editor named Ryan, and I asked him to put da-da-da music in, right? And he put a baseball sound. Did you hear it? He doesn't know what baseball sounds. Yeah, he doesn't know. He went da-da-da-da-da-da. I don't want da-da-da-da-da-da. All right, Ryan. Who wants to be a millionaire? Da-da-da-da-da-da. Turn down the lights. Ryan. Da-da-da.
    58:10
    Okay. Both of them come up with it, please. Da-da-da. What? What are we doing now? It's just a hurry up. It's just rapid fire. We're going to give you like seven or eight questions.
    58:21
    Okay, here it goes. I'm going to start you off. What's better, Texas food or New England food? What's better what? Food. Texas food or Boston food?
    58:36
    Oh, boy. I'm going to say Texas food, but I don't know enough Texas food. I just know brisket and Texas barbecue destroys Boston barbecue There's even places in Boston that pretend to be barbecue But they're not, they're terrible I heard some accent there Is this music bad?
    59:00
    Alright, you're up We can get here Why are we leaning in Headphones on that stupid of us Oh that fine It the music from Who Wants to Be a Millionaire Oh okay We put it in post I'll stop. Sorry. So, Boston fans, they kind of like getting wicked drunk sometimes. Who drinks more? Is it the Sox fans or the Pats fans? Hey, there we go. It's Sox fans because You can easily get sauce Before the game, during the game And after the game And Patriots There's nowhere to go Unless you're tailgating There's nowhere around the stadium really And then when you're at the game Don't even bother getting a beer Because you're going to be waiting 40 minutes to get it It's definitely Sox 40 minutes to pay $12 probably It's $12. $12? It's a small. Hardest pinball major to play in, and which one do you feel worst after, even if you won, like the biggest grind? Oh, geez.
    60:06
    Hardest to win. I don't even know what the majors are anymore. I haven't won in-disc yet, so I guess I'd say in-disc.
    60:14
    But in-disc is like the old papa with a card qualifying ticket. so the thing with card qualifying is that you can play really well and then just shoot yourself in the butt uh at the end of your ticket so that's what makes it i think amazing because the psychology and and the mindset really matters much more than it does otherwise um i don't i don't really care for the events that that make you play tons and tons and tons of games for for no particular reason like expo now has qualifying qualifying where you're playing like 24 games 24 different games like oh yeah you have to play one each of the pro and the premium of each of these machines like really why this is not fun um and so i haven't really played in the expo tournament in many years now i you know the people running that tournament they do a great job uh but i don't I don't think that the choices made there,
    61:15
    they make sense from the perspective of trying to maximize the value on another website's leaderboard. And they don't make sense from the perspective of having a fun event.
    61:26
    Yeah. They go along. Those games are long sometimes. So Bowen, let's say you've got one more game to play for a championship and you get to pick what the machine is. Can't pick one that you've worked on. what would you choose?
    61:43
    There are a lot of good choices. I think I might pick the shadow because I've had success on it in events, but it has to be a shadow where like looping and ramp and, and shot making are, are comfortable. I've definitely lost on shadow as final game several times thinking, oh, that's a good pick. And then, and then the game is like kind of not busted, but it's just, everything's a little off. I've been having a lot of success on Iron Maiden Against players because I don't shoot the loop I've been having Generally good success on Games like Godzilla It also often depends on the opponent's strengths and weaknesses Like I got to choose the games of Papa 20 And when it came time to pick the final game in the group I could have picked X-Men And instead I picked Jungle Queen Because I felt like I needed to I had a better chance of winning on Jungle Queen Than of winning on X-Men Having never played X-Men in the qualifying So the decision is often Pretty situational Now we have all these tournaments Where people can only pick games once And then you have to decide Whether you are going to save your best pick for last or whether you're going to just lump it and try. I always pick my best games right away because I think it would stink to be eliminated and then go like, oh, yeah, maybe I should have picked the game I'm really good at.
    63:21
    All right, you are 13th in the world. Any perks I could look forward to when I climb out of the draws of 2,900 to be top 20 in the world? Are there any perks, any groupies? I mean, what am I looking forward to? There's a possible Jay Leno appearance.
    63:42
    I guess there are things I could say, but no. No, it's a stupid question. It's a goof question. Stories for another time. No, no, there really aren't.
    63:54
    The main perk is that people will tell you you're 13th in the world. I actually don't. It's another one of those things I don't look at. Okay. And I mean it's good I played a bunch of tournaments this year And I've generally played very well in them So I'm not surprised that I'm up From wherever I was a year ago I don't know where that was either But like I didn't get invited to the The IFPA championship This year the one that was in Outside LA at Jim Belsitos And that's fine I went to Jamaica instead It was great Take that Jim But the perks, I mean, there are some, like, discounts on sterns that happen or other things that IFPA has put together. And they've done a good job with creating scenarios for the sponsors. And it's good. It's a good system.
    64:54
    I just never really think of it outside the realm of, like, how am I doing in this event? Did I win this event? Did I finish fourth? How many kids did I lose to this time?
    65:07
    Did I win a Mystery Castle this time? Did I win a Mystery Castle? Not even close. The next year I came back and it was 20 Mavericks and I didn't qualify for that either. Then the year after that it was 20 whodunnits. I won. And I won.
    65:31
    I won on the most BS thing I've ever seen. So I'm playing someone who's clearly kicking my butt. His name is Glenn Wilson. He's one of the best players of the 90s and still an outstanding player beyond that.
    65:49
    So he's just beating me down as player one. He's got, I think, $6 billion or so, and I've got under a billion going into my last ball. I was like, I've got to start multi-ball, and I've got to jack up the jackpot as high as I can. I start the multi-ball. I collect my first jackpot. And I hear some commotion behind me that I don't really understand.
    66:14
    I hit another jackpot. I look up, and the jackpot value is $400 million. On whodunit, the jackpot normally starts at $75 million. But Glenn Had kicked butt and had run that jackpot All the way up to 400 million And then I inherited his 400 million jackpot value Thanks Glenn Because The Because the game had decided that all players Share the same jackpot Instead of having individual jackpots Jackpot values And sure enough I hit enough 400 millions that I beat him, but I definitely did not hit enough 75 million as I would have beat him. So he should have won that game. And instead I won and I ended up winning the semifinal against Jim Balcedo the same way. We told Jim before we started, like, this is how it's playing. Do you want to be first or second? He picked to go first, which I didn't really understand. That's okay. You don't have to interview him for that. And then I played John Miller in the final On Waterworld A game that no one ever saw again Yeah A movie no one ever saw again Alright We're going to do I got a jackpot We're going to send you out with two trivia questions For the Stanford grad okay Alright I You sure about these These are real You're right. First question. Which pinball machine is the first to use a digital dot matrix display?
    67:57
    Well, it's usually given a checkpoint. It's a Data East game that came out just a little bit. Digital dot matrix display. Yeah. Checkpoint, Data East.
    68:08
    It says. No, it says. Black Knight, 1980. That's on a digital dot matrix display. Oh, my God. See? I think the Black Knight one would have been the same kind of seven-segment display that we see now.
    68:30
    Black Knight may have been the first game to use a seven-digit display, but I don't think that's true either because Big Game from Stern Electronics was like, this worked out good. Look at me. I've got seven digits. Nobody's ever going to get a million on my game, but I have so many digits now. This one I know is real. Okay. Yeah, I've heard this one before. What is the first pinball machine to feature video mode?
    68:52
    Oh, God. Video mode is terrible. But it's Terminator 2. It says here, Pinball Magic, Capcom, 1995. No, no. Terminator 2 had a video mode. You go around and you shoot the Terminators. They're going back and forth. And then you can get an extra ball, and then it goes, beep, beep, beep, beep, when it's still done. AI, you've got a long way to go. I pay like $50 a month for this shit. Pinball Magic's video mode was bullshit.
    69:23
    All of Pinball Magic's video mode was a door select. Like it's a left or right, and then you could pick. Sometimes it would go up to another level and then you'd pick again. Other times it would like, look, it's a snake. You lose. All right, shut up. I blame Google Gemini. I hate Google Gemini. Do we want other Pinball trivia? No, I'm ending it. It's over. The hurry up is done. Thank you, Bowen.
    69:48
    Couple questions. Will you be in Chicago in a couple weeks? I'm going to be in Chicago at least for the Wednesday because that's the circuit final of the other tournaments, and I'm currently seeded 17th for that. So I'm at least going to get to compete, and we'll see how it goes. Okay. What was the first ever game that has a shot that goes through a spinner And then into a scoop in the far back Far back of the game Didn't that just Avatar does that doesn't it You shoot the ball it goes through a spinner and then eventually into a saucer All the way in the back Wait skateboard. Barracora. No, not Barracora. It's got a thing, right? It's a spinner? No, there's no spinner there. I don't know. There's that boat. It's trucker, baby. Trucker. No way we would get truckers. We've got a trucker. It's right there.
    70:55
    Oh. No. What is that game called? Oh, yeah. Trailer. Remember you came here and played Trailer That's why I asked you that one Oh my god I forgot about Trailer So that's what's so funny Trailer You came here and GC'd it First time you played it Yeah you took down my score Yeah you took down your score So he comes in that day and he's not signed on an NDA And he goes who beat this And I wanted to go Bo and Karen And kick your ass Because you weren't on an NDA Alright, please search for Papa Pinball on YouTube Barrels of Fun just shipped their 500th Labyrinth Machine Congrats to the entire team there, congrats to you as well Anything else you want to plug, sir?
    71:43
    I'm always so impressed by any group of people who organize an event Whether it's a Houston Arcade show coming up or Chicago Expo Or Papa 21 with Penny Epstein and Andy Bagwell And Josh Sharp and that team Like these events Take so much effort to run And they're often Like thankless because everyone who's there Is exhausted or they're out of money Or they're angry they didn't win Or whatever It is really Really tough to organize great events And we see more and more of them So I'm excited to play 24 hour battle this year I don't know what to plug about that Because it's full But like Do they stream it? Yeah, he does stream it. The streaming is just kind of a static cam. That's fine. We'll tune in. That'll be fun. 24 hours of commentaries.
    72:35
    I can do it. You thought 24 hours of pinball. I can do it. Yes, I could. You could do 12. I've done 12 at TPF. You could definitely do it. I've done 12 at TPF, and I bet you I'll do eight or nine at Space City this year. Not me. You just need somebody else. Are you coming to TPF? Are you coming to TPF again in March? In March? It's not up to me, but I can't imagine. Bring him to TPF.
    73:03
    I mean, that's what happened last year. Yeah, you've got to run the second places that you need to beat. You've got two second places at TPF in a row. I've had it. I want you to win it. Who's going to beat you this year? Oh, stop it. It's going to be great. Exactly. Who's going to beat me this year? It could be anyone. It could be you. It won't be me. I'll be on the mic. I get that events like that, they're hard to run and they're hard to run well. It's exhausting. And even when there's issues around a game breaking down or a ruling, it's hard to get it right. But you don't have to get it right for everybody to still be pleased with the way it was run and the fact that people put in so much effort to make something for everyone else to enjoy.
    73:51
    So I appreciate that. Thank you so much for everything that you do, Bowen. Thank you. And I just wanted to do this for a long time. Thanks for saying yes. I appreciate it. Of course. Anytime. All right, brother. We'll talk to you soon, and I'll see you up in Chicago. Nice. Take care. All right. Thanks, Bowen.
    74:08
    Wow. Thank you, Bowen Cairns, for taking an hour to meet with us. Next week, I have another episode of Arcades Across America, this time with Rob Burt from Past Times Arcade and the guys from Free Gold Watch. Nice. That's going to be a good one, right? That'll be a lot of fun, and I'll again be joined by Cole from Quarter Drop Arcade. So we recorded this on Tuesday, October 1st, and usually we release these on Friday. So that'll be Friday, October 4th. And the reason I'm saying this is October 4th starts the Week of Whoppers here in Houston, and it's run by Space City Pinball League, Space City Pinball. The week of Whoppers is full tournaments leading up to the Space City Open. So here's how it starts. Friday night, Eureka Heights, group match play format. The tournament starts at 6.30 p.m. Then on Saturday, here at the Wormhole, will be a 4X tournament. That starts at 1. DJ Chris Lowe will be in the house. Yeah, that's going to be a packed house. Going to be a nice day out, actually. Is it? Well, 89, but that's not too bad. I thought I saw rain. 30%. Okay. DJ Chris Lowe will go through that. Then Einstein's Pub and Arcade on, what is that? Sunday. Boys and Girl on Monday. Home turf. You want to take me down there? What is that, Monday? They might be able to do Monday. Tuesday, I can't do Tuesday. Game Preserve North and South. And then back to OG Einstein's for a max match play. That's really fun on Thursday, which I'm setting up. Yeah, it's almost too many. but uh it's fun and then the warm-up go no go tournament at the houston uh space city open and then the space city open so warm-up pinball is going to be streaming r4x on saturday then the space city open go no go tournament on friday afternoon and then space city finals and then the women's finals the next day so follow us on twitch right click that bell get alerted when we go live. We don't know what time it'll be. It could be two, it could be three, it could be four. It just depends on how things shake out. But I'm going to wire the hell out of that room, dude. Yeah? Yeah. And surprise cam and a potential surprise stream. In the bathroom? No, dude. I'm going to wire the thing for sound. It's going to be unbelievable. Okay. You know what I mean? I want to show... One of the things about the Space City Open is so unbelievably badass is the crowds that sit and watch. And I'm going to have them wired up. Let's talk about that. It's awesome having all those people behind you just going nuts. We do a really good job at Space City Open and TPF.
    76:54
    We'll make sure I can really show that this year. If you're going to the Houston Arcade Expo, please stop by our booth. Say hello. Our booth's got bigger. If you saw our booth at TPF, it's actually going to be bigger. Oh, good. It was pretty cozy last year. We're bringing five machines now. All right.
    77:13
    If you love pinball and but don't play competitively, come by. Stop by our booth, Space City Pinball Booth, right across the way, and we'll show you how great this community is. We got merch. Oh, yeah, we're going to have a lot of merch. Janine will be selling some stuff with my wife, Janine, and Christine Hood. They love the man, the booth there. And we'll have all the chairs out. And it's going to be really good. So I'm really pumped for the Houston Arcade Expo. What do you think? Yes, absolutely. Wang Chung Everybody Wang Chung tonight Is going to be performing They did Dancehall Wasn't that Wang Chung No idea All I know is Wang Chung tonight I didn't know they had a second song That's great You just got to put that on repeat I thought they would just do like what Seal does and he just sings this one hit Like five different times Do it like a couple different ways do like a sure version of it you can do so much all right that's enough you have anything uh no i'm good uh check us out on all the socials tiktok had a good week i'm unbelievable you and aaron and so did instagram so there you go follow us on that ryan if you could put that across the screen yeah and you know our number one rule but you really can't be an a-hole listening to wang chung especially the bluegrass version thank you guys
    78:42
    Thank you for watching!