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The Pinball Show Ep 58: Keyboard Commando - Round One, Fight!!

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·2h 51m·analyzed·May 3, 2021
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TL;DR

Zach Minney confronts forum critic Delt31 over accusations of editorial bias and network power consolidation.

Summary

In this contentious episode, Zach Minney (host of The Pinball Show) brings on Delt31, a prolific pinball forum critic and "keyboard commando," for a new series called "Keyboard Commandos." The episode is dominated by a detailed, heated discussion of their historical interactions spanning 2017–2020, focusing on accusations that Zach has compromised editorial integrity through relationships with Penn Stadiums, used The Pinball Network to consolidate power and promote Flippin' Out Pinball, and mishandled the transition from This Week in Pinball to TPN. Delt31 argues Zach's content is biased and strategically positioned, while Zach defends The Pinball Network as a collaborative effort with multiple hosts and no editorial censorship of other shows.

Key Claims

  • Delt31 was a supporter of Straight Down the Middle starting in October 2017 and gave them money because he liked their honesty and lack of bias.

    high confidence · Delt31 states he was a fanboy starting in October 2017 and says 'You and I feel like we got into this hobby around the same time. I started in 2015... I loved what you guys were bringing to the table.'

  • Delt31 accused Zach of compromising reviews of Penn Stadiums due to a relationship/partnership with Scott (Penn Stadiums owner), citing that Zach does voiceover work for the product.

    high confidence · Delt31: 'Do I think for a second that the Love Fest with Penn Stadium use is not related to their friendship to Scott? Of course it does. Zach does a voiceover for the damn product.'

  • Delt31 claims Zach created The Pinball Network as a power consolidation play to promote Flippin' Out Pinball and counter Kaneda's popularity.

    medium confidence · Delt31: 'Your agenda has gone from an innocent hobbyist-driven YouTube channel to a distributor who has saturated the market with buy, buy, buy from Flippin' Out... Besides the obvious distributor exposure, the only other benefit I can see is to address that nagging pain in the ass called Kaneda.'

  • The Pinball Network does not censor or edit shows submitted by other podcasters on the platform.

    high confidence · Zach: 'I can state that we do not, as a pinball network committee, filter, censor anyone... There have been plenty of things that I have tried to add to this network that get voted against.'

  • The Pinball Network operates as a committee with six voting members; Zach is 'merely one vote' and does not unilaterally control content or direction.

    high confidence · Zach: 'I am merely one vote listener. There have been plenty of things that I have tried to add to this network that get voted against... Right now we've got one, two, three, four, five, I believe six committee members.'

  • Delt31 criticized the transition from This Week in Pinball (TWIP) to The Pinball Network in January 2020 as abrupt and poorly executed, suggesting it was driven by Flippin' Out agenda.

    high confidence · Delt31 quotes his own forum post: 'It's been a 101 course on how to fail at marketing... Your agenda has gone from an innocent hobbyist-driven YouTube channel to a distributor...'

Notable Quotes

  • “We are here to entertain in this dumb hobby of ours called pinball.”

    Delt31 @ early in episode — Sets the tone for the conversation; acknowledges pinball as entertainment/community-driven rather than serious industry.

  • “I don't know if you like I'm going to be fair, I don't think I like you. But I may, I just don't know.”

    Zach Minney @ opening — Establishes the confrontational, honest dynamic that frames the entire episode.

  • “Your agenda has gone from an innocent hobbyist-driven YouTube channel to a distributor who has saturated the market with buy, buy, buy from Flippin' Out.”

    Delt31 (forum quote from 2020) @ mid-episode — Core accusation: Zach's TPN consolidation was commercial power play, not community benefit.

  • “I am merely one vote listener... There have been plenty of things that I have tried to add to this network that get voted against.”

    Zach Minney @ late episode — Direct rebuttal to Delt31's allegation of unilateral control; claims democratic governance of TPN.

  • “The way you did it was just, I mean, quite frankly, disrespectful to Jeff.”

    Delt31 @ mid-episode — Refers to Jeff Patterson (TWIP creator) and the optics of TPN transition; key community sentiment criticism.

  • “You want to have this control of having this entire network that's under you and that you have in these shows.”

    Delt31 @ late episode — Central claim: TPN structure is about Zach's control and power consolidation, not collaboration.

  • “Transparent. I thought it's more ignorant to me, but I guess we can go with transparent.”

    Delt31 @ early episode — Sets dismissive tone toward Zach's self-characterization; questions credibility of framing.

  • “If you don't understand that pinball network is tied to flipping out, I mean, Zach, stop it.”

    Delt31 — Final assertion: public perception ties TPN brand to Flippin' Out regardless of Zach's denials.

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDelt31personThe Pinball ShowmediaStraight Down The Middle (SDTM)mediaThe Pinball Network (TPN)organizationFlippin' Out PinballcompanyPenn StadiumsproductThis Week in Pinball (TWIP)media

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: The Pinball Network operates with 6-member committee structure and claims no editorial censorship of constituent shows; Zach presents this as evidence against accusations of unilateral control.

    high · Zach: 'I am merely one vote listener... Right now we've got one, two, three, four, five, I believe six committee members.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Sustained interpersonal conflict between Zach Minney (Flippin' Out/TPN founder) and Delt31 (forum critic) over editorial bias, commercial influence, and power consolidation spanning 2017–present; public airing of historical grievances and forum posts.

    high · Entire episode content; detailed timeline of accusations with dated forum quotes; both parties acknowledge multi-year contentious relationship.

  • ?

    community_signal: Delt31 maintains active participation in Pinside forums and pinball community discourse despite contentious relationship with Zach; willing to engage in long-form podcast dialogue to air grievances publicly.

    high · Entire episode format; Delt31 agreed to appear and brought detailed historical timeline of forum posts to substantiate accusations.

  • ?

    community_signal: The Pinball Show is launching 'Keyboard Commandos' series to directly engage with and/or confront prominent forum critics in long-form podcast format; Delt31 is first guest.

    high · Zach: 'We are kicking off the first in a new series that we are calling here at the Pinball Show, Keyboard Commandos... our co-host today is one of the most prolific pinball trolls on the internet.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Public perception associates The Pinball Network brand closely with Flippin' Out Pinball despite Zach's assertion that only his solo show mentions it; Delt31 claims brand conflation is inevitable regardless of editorial independence.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.516

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. This week on The Pinball Show, I introduce a new series and a new co-host. We also talk about an interview with Stearns, Director of Mechanical Engineering. Keeping the magic alive in pinball. The freedom of plastic. Lost pinball mechanisms and ideas. A coming soon mind blower. The king of flow visiting the loser kids. Haggis revisited 2.0 rules. Pin clashing. Post clashing. Made in Taiwan. And pinball market trends. All of this and more on this very messy episode 58.
0:53
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality.
1:07
Hey, how's it going everybody? This week we are kicking off the first in a new series that we are calling here at the Pinball Show, Keyboard Commandos. That's right, our co-host today is one of the most prolific pinball trolls on the internet. He throws stones with the best of them, but now he's here in this glass house of weaved gold and goat turds. When he's not busy stroking the ego of Kaneda, he can be found lurking around the alien thread on Pennside or any thread that harbors toxicity and hate. As a disclaimer, I do not like this person, but I am here to chat with the master of accusation himself, ladies and gentlemen, Delt31.
1:49
Hey, Zach, what an intro. That was a really well put together script. I feel like you really worked hard on that one. Well, you know, we barely get third place in the Twippies for something, right? Not even close. It was an absolute disaster. But it was a wash. It was embarrassing. I was actually embarrassed for you. I can't believe you let me on here. I do appreciate it, though. In all reality here, it's looking like a fun time.

  • Delt31 argued that Zach's Straight Down the Middle had superior chemistry and honesty compared to other shows, but that chemistry was lost when commercial interests took over.

    medium confidence · Delt31: 'You guys still have the best chemistry out there... I loved the honesty. I loved the unbiased that was built in day one. And then it's like this brick wall.'

  • Delt31 accused Zach of bias against Munsters, praising its art package by Franchi while dismissing the game's code as a 'mess,' whereas Wizard of Oz was elevated despite weaker aesthetics.

    medium confidence · Delt31: 'You listed Wizard of Oz art package better than Munsters... when I think about other pieces of artwork, I personally think that there's other better examples.'

    • @ late episode

  • “Wizard of Oz is the staple transition to a new and exciting and innovative pinball machine. Everything about Wizard of Oz is exactly what this hobby needs more of.”

    Delt31 @ mid-episode — Illustrates Delt31's aesthetic/design philosophy preferences in pinball; used as foil to critique Munsters.

  • “How can a network be saturated with Flippin' Out Pinball when we have over 20 streamers and we have over 10 podcasters?”

    Zach Minney @ late episode — Logistical rebuttal: scale of TPN contradicts saturation claim; only one show (his own) mentions Flippin' Out.

    • Jeff Patterson
    person
    Scottperson
    Kanedaperson
    Franchiperson
    Gregperson
    Dennisperson
    Munstersgame
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Houdinigame
    Guns N' Roses LEgame
    Willy Wonkagame
    Beetlejuice transliteproduct
    Pinsideplatform
    Martin Robbinsperson
    Jeff Teolisperson
    Mr. Scootperson

    medium · Delt31: 'If you ask someone on the street or you ask someone in this hobby who runs Pinball Network, they would say it's flipping out.'; Zach: 'How can a network be saturated with Flippin' Out Pinball when we have over 20 streamers and we have over 10 podcasters?'

  • ?

    community_signal: Kaneda positioned as #1 ranked pinball content creator; Delt31 alleges Zach created TPN partly to counter Kaneda's dominance and regain influence/control in pinball media ecosystem.

    medium · Delt31: 'the only other benefit I can see is to address that nagging pain in the ass called Kaneda, who continues to have the most popular pinball content, which I know drives you crazy.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Disagreement over pinball game aesthetic standards: Delt31 defends Munsters artwork (Franchi) despite gameplay flaws; Zach emphasizes holistic game package with Wizard of Oz as exemplar of innovation.

    medium · Extended debate on Munsters art vs. Wizard of Oz; Delt31: 'Munsters is five times better, the art package, than Wizard of Oz'; Zach emphasizes Wizard's comprehensive design innovation.

  • $

    market_signal: Straight Down The Middle won 'third place' in Twippy awards (implied recent past); both speakers reference award show involvement and perceive it as part of TPN's rollout strategy.

    medium · Zach: 'Well, you know, we barely get third place in the Twippies for something, right? Not even close.'; Delt31 criticizes 'the award show' rollout as disaster.

  • ?

    community_signal: Zach Minney operates as both content creator (SDTM, The Pinball Show), distributor/retailer (Flippin' Out Pinball), and network operator (TPN); role consolidation fuels accusations of power/commercial bias.

    high · Multiple hats acknowledged by both parties; Delt31's core criticism centers on inability to separate these roles.

  • ?

    community_signal: Zach Minney consolidated media properties: ended TWIP (Jeff Patterson's show), launched TPN, and positioned Flippin' Out Pinball as operational hub; optics perceived as abrupt power consolidation rather than collaborative transition.

    high · Delt31 forum quote Jan 2020: 'all of a sudden we flip the switch and we have this new agenda'; claims transition was 'abrupt,' 'poorly executed,' and 'disrespectful to Jeff.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Delt31's perception of Zach shifted from supportive (Oct 2017–early 2018) to critical (July 2018 onward) coinciding with SDTM's adoption of Penn Stadiums partnership and perceived editorial bias.

    high · Delt31 timeline: positive posts 2017–early 2018, then 'brick wall' and skepticism starting July 2018 with Penn Stadiums coverage.

    • 2:15
    Are we? Buckle in. This is what we're here to do, Zach. We're here to entertain in this dumb hobby of ours called pinball. We're here to entertain, have some fun So all of you be in good spirit I love that you're on Because You know what Brian, I don't know you Can I call you Brian? No of course I don't know you I feel like I've known you throughout the last Four or five years Us both being in pinball I don't know if I like I'm going to be fair, I don't think I like you But I may, I just don't know You know me I'm honesty is everything, right? So, and the listeners here know that too. Yeah. And I truly respect that. I think folks that know me understand I come from the same or come from the same cloth. I'm a very direct person that is going to give you a very transparent view, a very truthful view on what's going on. So here's the way I see it. Transparent. I thought it's more ignorant to me, but I guess we can go with transparent. Well, I make sure it's very clear, right? So that it is. I don't know if you consider it being clear, Inder, and that might be a question on you. But I would say that at this point, you and I are built on a similar foundation, right? That's how we're built. Now, we go in different directions. I think you've gone into the – well, we'll talk a little more about that, like the fun directions you've gone into. But at the end of the day, I do think there's a good foundation that we'll kind of find here during the call, and we'll have a good time. I think that's sweet. I think we've got plenty of pinball news, listener. This may not be the episode for you, but we got plenty of news. Hang tight. But before we do that, I've got some stuff to get off my chest. And the best way for me to do that, to really process all of this trauma that I've experienced over the last four fucking years, is to go through a little timeline. Would you do that with me, Brian? I will. Hopefully, you're going to put some nice music into that, too, so we can hear. Yeah, make it good for the people. If we hop into the Wayback Machine and go all the way back to 2017, that is where Delt 31 and Z-Mini first met. We interacted as pinball media celebrity, and Delt was just a fanboy for Straight Down the Middle, starting in October 2017. It all started so nice. You said, quote, the most thorough review out there in December 2017. You were really a big fan of Greg and I. I was. No, in fact, I actually gave you guys some money. I really like the platform, right, because to me, you didn't take things too, too seriously. It was folks just getting into the hobby like myself. You and I feel like we got into this hobby around the same time. I started in 2015, so I'm not like an old-school person who does tournaments and, you know, has been doing this for some time. I just want to have fun. So you too. I like the chemistry. You guys still have the best chemistry out there. We'll go into that a little bit later. But I love the platform. I loved it. I loved what you guys were bringing to the table. I loved the honesty. I loved the unbiased that was built in day one. And then it's like this brick wall.
    5:25
    Well, we'll talk about that a little bit later. But, yes, I was a big supporter. And, you know, again, I still do view and listen to your content here and there. Right? Because I do appreciate, again, and I mentioned this to you, I appreciate some of the stuff you bring to the hobby, which is really good. You guys are definitely talented.
    5:47
    But, yeah, you're right. Look, I'm going to keep my guard up, Brian, because I'm not going to let you Charlie Brown my ass. You can keep building me up. I'm looking behind me right now. Listener, pay attention to the juxtaposition here. This wonderful, sweet Brian up north, he's so kind, right? He can't possibly be the same person that said some of the following stuff. Now, I do wonder if it's a coincidence, listener. The Delt 31 actually on the SDTM thread on Pennside, he had post number 666 February 2018. I don't know if that's just a rather coincidence, or I tend to call that fate. But as we're looking, it was nothing but roses all the way up until July 2018.
    6:33
    That's when it starts taking a little bit of a turn. We become spokespeople and ambassadors for Penn Stadium. You didn't feel like we were being honest there. You said, do I think for a second that the Love Fest with Penn Stadium use is not related to their friendship to Scott? Of course it does. Zach does a voiceover for the damn product. Do I think the full tour and in-depth interview for Houdini didn't just have a little influence in Zach's review? Of course I did. I even mentioned the same when he posted the insane score. Yeah, that's right, that score. So Penn Stadiums, I can only like Penn Stadiums and Houdini because I helped work with them on promotional material. Where's the evidence there? Yeah, so it's the jump the shark type of thing, right? And even before I go into that, I do, you probably, maybe you pulled this one. Hopefully you did, but I. I likely did. Yeah, I mentioned to you that the only people you have on your show kiss your ass.
    7:31
    Yeah, I got that quote in here. yeah and I actually went back online once you reached out to me and said hey Brian you know I'd like for you to jump up jump on in I said you know what the fact you reached out and we're having this conversation I respect you for that so that piece I've already told you I mean I you won't hear that from me because again it's all about it's all about calling out what's going on that's the way I run right so if I call out what's going on which is direct and and and uh exactly to the point and someone recognizes it and then changes it or does something to address it That's all respect, right? That's what we're here to do. That's what's so funny about this hobby is that we should be here to critique and to make things better, right? Not to slander. We're not looking to do that. Well, I think the interpretation, how you take it, I think some people are softer.
    8:18
    Right? And you're definitely a softie, right? Well, yeah, you told me in this quote, that wasn't very nice, Snowflake. So, yeah, I think I'm soft based on your snowflake standards. Yeah, I mean, yeah, but, you know, at the end of the day, though, I do give credit when people address it. So, like I said, I think it's great we're having a discussion. I think we're going to have fun, and we are having fun. But, yeah, I mean, you know, that's, like I said, it's a calm out.
    8:47
    But back to your initial question about the Penn Stadiums, well, there's no question about it that you have a strong relation with Scott. Now, Scott knows, and I'm looking around my – I'm in the basement here, Zach, looking at all my pinball machines, and I'm thinking, let's see, one, two, I have, I think, four – no, I have five machines with pin stadiums. So I have no problem with the product, but the way it was delivered – and this is really, you know, the main issue with, you know, why you kind of run into some issues with your approach. is you take this tact of like delivering something that you want to come across as genuine, and then you kind of like ignore the fact that there's this on top stuff or there's relationships with companies, whether it's a partnership with somebody else. And you're like, oh, my God. Like, no, of course not. Like I would never be influenced. Meanwhile, it's all about just making sure the product stands on its own. Okay, so pink stadiums to me, yeah, they're very, you know, priced high, but geez, what's not priced high in this hobby? But, man, they deliver for certain situations. like the Guns N' Roses behind me, my LE, you've got to be out of your mind. Out of your mind to put Penn Stadiums on that machine. In fact, Guns N' Roses, the new code should actually lock the system if it detects Penn Stadiums in that machine, okay? Because that just helps. It's protecting the actual pinball enthusiast from a bad mistake. But Willy Wonka, look at my Willy Wonka right now, right? What I've seen you doing there, Brian, is you're starting to lay the foundation of bias here in 2018. But you balance it with positive feedback, as you're doing right now, calling SDT and the best, but also saying, hey, I don't really believe them because they are biased. You're implying that my love fest for Penn Stadium is because I have a friendship. I don't agree with that, but I don't see any evidence against either. Now, as we roll into February 2019, you start shitting on me for saying the Munsters is beautiful. I don't know what you were smoking with that argument because the Munsters is beautiful, and it is one of the most beautiful pinball machines ever made. You listed things like Serge's Voltaire. Okay, because I said, well, what are more beautiful? Then you said, this is the one I love that makes you just look so wrong. Wizard of Oz art package better than Munsters. Ladies and gentlemen, this is what happens when we have revisionist history. Wizard of Oz. Would you really say Wizard of Oz art package is better than the Munsters? So the Munsters, and I think if you go into my full reaction to the Munsters, because day one you could check it out, hopefully you have. My first reaction to Monsters was what a boring, complete, just toss-in-the-garbage design of a game that just replicated and copied and had no soul, right? So, in fact, the only thing good about Monsters is probably the point you're making here, which is it does have, as far as aesthetics, the, you know, I think it's Franchi, right? Franchi did the artwork. I'm not a huge, I think Franchi's super talented. Like, there was that Beeljuice Translite that's on sale right now. That thing is gorgeous, right? So I think Franchi is very talented. I personally don't think Munster's artwork is the best artwork out there, but you've got to wrap the entire package up with just the soulless, dead-on-arrival, and the code still is a mess. I mean, it's essentially, I guess, the topper now, because toppers are insane. It's the only reason why you might be able to save some money in that game. But it's a mess, and when I think about other pieces of artwork, I personally think that there's other better examples. Now, Wizard of Oz to me, Zach, Wizard of Oz is the staple transition to a new and exciting and innovative pinball machine. I wouldn't disagree. When I look at Wizard of Oz, everything, not just the art, but thank you for reminding the group it's the art as well. Everything about Wizard of Oz is exactly what this hobby needs more of. Everything. Okay, so it set the bar. Now, you could say it shoots clunky and I don't know, it's the rams. As soon as it's done. But ultimately, the package, that Wizard of Oz package, I mean, when I have people here, and again, I don't have a lot of people that play pinball. In fact, what's funny about the hobby is that, you know, people think that everyone plays pinball or it's super. This thing is like you and I and the rest of the Pinside crew, we're like less than like .005% of the population. People think we're crazy. But when people come here and see Wizard, they have no idea about pinball. They're like, what is this machine? That's what got me back into pinball. Yeah. So, you know, yeah, I do think Wizard of Oz's art package is really nice. I think Munsters is an absolute slap in the face to folks who actually like that theme because what a waste that game was. The code's a joke. So we can go all day on Munsters. I'm going to give myself a point there because when we were referring to artwork and it comes down to brass tacks, the Munsters is five times better, the art package, than Wizard of Oz. You also listed Hobbit. But you also listed Theater of Magic, which I'm still going to give that to Munsters and so on and so forth.
    14:08
    You're talking about art. So, I mean, if we're going to talk about who gets points on art, Zach, I think you're smart enough that you understand that art is the eye of the beholder, right? So I don't know. I mean, but I would take Wizard of Oz, our package over Munsters. I love that. I love that position. All right, we're going to fast forward because you and I got into it back and forth about play field issues. but I want to roll into January 2020 when TPN, the pinball network, enters into the industry. Now, you said, and I quote the following. Oh, this is ugly. So you said, quote, it's been a 101 course on how to fail at marketing, but more importantly, I echo others in asking why this needs to be all under one group. Besides trying to build a flipping out pinball monopoly, what is the benefit? You don't need a network to be heard. Kaneda's URL purchase was hilarious, by the way. Now, that's funny. Regardless, good content will be delivered, no doubt. Just hope it's not saturated with buy, buy, buy from Zach at Flippin' Out. You later go on to say, quote, Your agenda has gone from an innocent hobbyist-driven YouTube channel to a distributor who has saturated the market with buy, buy, buy from Flippin' Out. Playfield issues be damned. Hey, what's the big deal, guys? As a fan of SDT and this sucks, let me repeat, It's not a content concern. I'm questioning why it's necessary for all these talented folks to be under your network. Besides the obvious distributor exposure, the only other benefit I can see is to address that nagging pain in the ass called Kaneda, who continues to have the most popular pinball content, which I know drives you crazy. Do you think the network is going to take viewership away? Honestly, I would have thought you would have seen how that strategy makes no sense. But after watching this train wreck of an introduction, all bets are off. I just hope these folks who have signed up are not taking a step backwards because they're talented by themselves. I also hope it's not just a big infomercial where flipping out pinballs plugged all day long. I'm going to throw up if I see or hear another reminder. Now, listener, I'll remind you that as sweet as this Mr. Bryan is, this is just the tip of the iceberg to what is the train wreck of his responses regarding TVN. Yeah, so I'm actually, when I listen back to that, I'm actually impressed on how well that was stated on a forum. That's just my ability to read well, I think. I don't know if it's your words. Thank you for presenting it so just, that was a great presentation. No, I mean, that is 100% exactly the point. Inaccurate, yeah, I agree. It really is. I mean, what an absolute train wreck. How so? Train wreck. Like this team. Having fun and playing pinball with friends and creating? Horrible. Yeah. And this is back to my earlier point about where you stumble the most. And, again, I provide this to you, and I think you're getting the point now. I think you're starting to realize how this works. It's all about feedback to help, right? It's all about, yeah, what I wrote there is exactly true. And if you look and you actually detail what I'm saying and you pull it back and think about how you can actually incorporate the enhancements there. you'll reach a better product. And your ambition to set this up, I believe, was for the good. In that, you know, you're saying, look. Well, I didn't read that. I didn't read any of that. Well, no, what I'm saying is, well, your delivery on it was an absolute disaster. And I think that you're laying on top, you know, in my opinion, again, this is my view, as you just repeated. when you're on there you're essentially you're delivering that message you're saying look we're the pinball network we want to do good, we want to do this, we want to do that but underneath it's a clear and this is the part that's funny I don't think you fool too many people and you can tell from that just adverse reaction that you receive and that's putting it lightly on what you guys did and how you rolled it out and when I say you guys I'm going to talk to you because you're exactly, you're the ringleader You're the one that will run this and call the shots. Do you have evidence of that? Well, just listen to yourself and even others. I mean, I know when you and Greg talk about it, it's always like, okay, well, Zach was thinking about this, and then we got together. You're always kind of spearheading it. Even Dennis, sweet, sweet Dennis, by the way. I love Dennis, right?
    18:29
    Dennis does a great job. Dennis, great job with Zach. Again, I don't catch the show every week, but I try to catch up, and he does a great job.
    18:38
    But, yeah, no, there's no question. I think if you're doubting that you're the ringleader on network, I think you're just kidding yourself. But back to actuality, what happens is you kind of – you have this idea that I think you want to, you know, benefit the hobby, right? But then it's wrapped. It's wrapped again under this distribution and this flipping out, and everything is just saturated with flipping out. Evidence? Evidence is just you talking. I mean, I don't know. If you only pull voice clips of you saying, like – And guys, remember, if you want this, go here. How can a network be saturated with Flippin' Out Pinball when we have over 20 streamers and we have over 10 podcasters? And of all of those content areas, only one place, one, talks about Flippin' Out, and that is only for me on my own show. That's evidence. I mean, again, if you want me to pull voice clips and I listen to you talk, I mean, it's almost like a question about how do you know I'm the ringleader of the pinball network? I mean, Zach, please, don't waste my time. what's funny is when you rolled it out though how you did it it was so like just just so wrong right so because i used to listen to what was it this week in pinball podcast right you guys pulled the soul like oh you know we're not going to do this anymore um and it was a very abrupt ending okay kind of weird yeah i think the next night or the next week and again i don't have this in the back of my head 100 so this part i'll tell you i don't know they're being and it happened this way but The way it felt like, Zach, was that all of a sudden we flip the switch and we have this new agenda. It's called the Pinball Network. And we're going to take everything out of Twippy. I think, you know, whoever runs Twippy, is it?
    20:19
    Jeff Patterson. I'm sorry? Jeff Patterson. Yeah, Jeff. That's right, Jeff. You know, Jeff was like, you know, I don't even know what's going on. And kind of there's also the same type of thing was done with the awards show as well, which is another disaster. But it's the tact in which you do this. It's like, okay, all of a sudden you turn it off, and then you turn something back on. It's led by you. It's under the flipping out kind of agenda. Again, no evidence. Yeah, well, I'm only going to pull in. I know when you say no evidence, again, I don't. I've got, but I've got evidence to provide that you're wrong. You have zero to provide that you're right. That's all. Saying that everything I've listened to, I don't know, can you be in my head and listen to your own voice? I think maybe you should then press play on these shows back and just listen there and put some nice music, get like a nice cocktail, right, and listen to yourself speak. I think that's your best evidence. So I'm just telling you what I'm hearing. And then it was – that's how it was laid out. Now, there was a lot of other stuff I'll be very frank about. You'll notice I never talked about it where I do think that there were some things that were said about this layout and who you picked. I didn't get involved with that. I thought that was – I didn't think that was a fair view. but you know there was a lot of stuff that just kind of got into this whole thing now i my only view on this was that the way it was done the attack and and uh and the intent and how it was done i was it just was a i was like wow bad look zach really bad look um the url of canada i think is hilarious i just think that or i'm not even sure if he did it but someone took the url to force this it just seemed like it was such a poorly executed which is exactly what i said in that thread, a poorly executed plan.
    22:01
    Who did it hurt? And you were like, I can't believe people have this reaction. I just can't believe it. Who was it hurting? I'm sorry? Who was it hurting? Who are you hurting? I mean, it just was, the way you did it was just, I mean, quite frankly, disrespectful to Jeff. Well, I just felt like it was, and even including with the award show going forward, it just seemed like there was nothing.
    22:26
    It was just like he walked away. And then he was like, what's going on? It's just the optics of it. Again, it's somebody that's. Optics.
    22:35
    Optics, yes. So optics isn't always truth, right? Well, how it happened. I mean, I know that Jeff was. I mean, did you pull the text from Jeff in the threads where he says, like, yeah, like, no idea or like even the award show, no idea. So when I say optics, I'll even go one step further and just clarify that Jeff has, you know, actually gone on the record. And you know this, Zach, so come on. I mean, you know that that's what happened. No, hold up, hold up. What do you mean? I know what happened. I do know what happened. I was there. And optics does play a large role in a lot of things. Jeff did know. Jeff would talk to you. He did know that Dennis and I were ending the TWIP podcast.
    23:17
    That was no surprise. Well, it just seemed like the rollout and his reaction and just how it was done. I just think even the user, right? So just even someone like me, I'll just speak for myself because I'll be very frank with you. I have not talked to Jeff directly. I've only seen what he's wrote on the thread. So I'm just reacting to his own words. But I'll tell you from my perspective and kind of listening on how it was done, I was just like, what the hell is going on? And this whole thing being fueled by flipping out. Again, if you don't see that connection, I don't know what to tell you, man. I mean, you've got to step back and kind of smell the roses a little bit.
    23:56
    I think it's easy to say. I think it's the low-hanging fruit, but it's hard to actually back up. That's the only thing. So, yeah, I mean, I could say all kinds of outlandish shit and be like, well, I mean, it's pretty apparent to me. And then if somebody was like, yeah, but do you have any evidence that I do this? And I'd be like, well, no, but it's just a feel thing. And come on, a feel thing is strong. No. If every show was talking about flipping out, sure. If every stream was talking about flipping out, sure. Unfortunately, it's just not the case. What that is is that's just building a narrative for your own sake. And I think that's what you've done pretty successfully over the last couple of years. I want to go into – Actually, Zach, there's one because I don't like, and you feel free to edit this, too, but I'll tell you right now, I don't like you said like, just to be clear, when you say that I said that I don't have any evidence and it's a feeling, I didn't say that at all. In fact, I told you the evidence is your own speak. I don't sit here, I don't have time to dedicate to pull But Brian, I'm not on 10 different podcasts. That's what TPN is comprised of, 10 different podcasts. So if the majority is fueled from flipping out pinball, wouldn't evidence suggest that all 10 podcasts do nothing but promote and shill for flipping out pinball? Simple question. No, no, not at all. There's a power trip here, too. No, no, not at all, because that would be just too on the nose, Zach. I mean, look, just from this conversation, I can tell that some things do pass over your head, and you'll go back and you'll revisit it and you'll realize it. But then on the flip side, there's some stuff that you know you're smart enough not to be so on the nose that every single show is going to promote flipping out, because that's ridiculous. Okay, but the whole thing... Do we edit shows that are pulled into TPN? That would be a way that I could manipulate and control. I said, do we edit here at TPN? Do we edit the shows that come in and filter them and censor them and make them? Because that would be an easy way for me to manipulate flipping out being in there. We, I can state that we do not, as a pinball network committee, filter, censor anyone. So that's number one. Number two is when I go to want something changed or want to add something to this network, I am merely one vote Brian. I'm merely one vote listener. There have been plenty of things that I have tried to add to this network that get voted against. So, again, I'm providing actual evidence that I am not this evil lord overseeing all of this stuff. I am but one vote among. Right now we've got one, two, three, four, five, I believe six committee members. Sure, but my whole point was, and maybe you didn't hear it correctly, my whole point was you don't edit other shows because that's too on the nose. That would be ridiculous. Then what do I do? Let's hear what I do. But there's a power play here, right? And this goes back to your other comment about how you're just so burned up regarding how Canada is number one. You want to have that control. When did I get burned up about that? Again, request for more evidence. No, I just said, I thought you mentioned earlier that you were burned out about it, but the point about how you have other shows on this network, you like controlling it, right? You like to control the fact that... I love control of anything I work on, sure. I know you do. No, of course. And that's why, that's the other incentive for you. You would never, I mean, I don't think you would, maybe, I don't think you would, I'm not saying you would, that you would edit something, But there's no question that you have this network that's set up to promote your business, and you have the control that you have. That's a false statement. The one thing, well, I don't know. I just explained why. No, you didn't. You said that I had this network set up to create a business proposition for Flippin' Out. If I did that, why would I have a network? I would just have a fucking podcast. Why have a whole network? Because it's a power trip. It's a power play because eventually, again, you want to have – That's really, you made the comment in the beginning about how I did enjoy the straight down the middle setup, which again, I definitely did. But now you've taken it now for this control play, which I don't like. I don't like the control play. You want to have this control of having this entire network that's under you and that you have in these shows. You obviously are using it for your own specific show. And I know you haven't edited, but your own specific show you've called out for flipping out. And you just know that the brand itself under the network is tied to it. If you ask someone on the street or you ask someone in this hobby who runs Pinball Network, they would say it's flipping out. I mean, come on, Zach, you know that. So that's not – I think we're spinning wheels. If you can't admit that, then sorry, we just have to move on because that's embarrassing. But that's just the fact of the matter. You know it. So it's a power trip and it's a promotion play. I would say the first thing when you – Clear. Do you want me to make it? No, I think it's crystal clear to the listeners because if you say final round pinball podcast with Martin Robbins and Jeff Teellis, what's the first thing you think about? I'm pretty sure they're not going to say flipping out pinball. When you say don't panic flip or when you say Mr. Scoot on streaming, what's the first thing you think about? They're not going to say flipping out pinball. They probably won't say TPN either. I'm not even sure they'd say what is that, to be honest. But I don't know. I mean, I'm just telling you that it's very clear. If you don't understand that pinball never tied to flipping out, I mean, Zach, stop it. I feel like you're just wasting time. You're just wasting time. You're actually, worse off than I thought, if you can't make that connection yourself. I mean, because obviously it's clear everybody else. I mean... Logic works better for me. That's why I stumble. Logic works better for me. Well, I just laid out logically, but if you want to ignore the logic, I don't know what to tell you. But I think we're... I don't know what else to say to you on that. I mean, you're just ignoring the clear logical steps. You also make suggestions that I am really frustrated and hurt on a daily basis that Kaneda has a podcast. He said in January 2020, my guess is that you're so frustrated with Kaneda winning again, Zach likely has the numbers from being on the Twippy panel, that they've decided to stop doing everything separate and just join forces to have one big podcast, which hopefully bumps up the total views. He went on to say in February 2020, people like Greg Bone and Jason Fowler now unfortunately get shrapnel from it all as well. Yeah, I do feel bad for Greg. I do feel bad. I felt bad for Jason. I mean, again, I don't know him very well, of course. I listened to his podcast and had it. I thought he was in this game or he was doing this thing. Just love the game.
    30:42
    And I do feel like he, just based on what I heard from him directly, It seemed like he really took a lot of crap for the Pinball Network disaster, because, I mean, there's no question it was an absolute disaster. What was the disaster again? Remind me. Oh, Zach, the rollout of the Pinball Network, like I said to you, I just articulated it so well. I almost just want you to just, like I said, maybe read it again on your own and just smile at the just amazing layout of how I described it. I was just, wow. I can't believe I'm on a pinball form and I was able to articulate that well. But just the layout and the execution and just misguided, it just was a mess. And I feel like, you know, the clearest example, too, of that is that to your colleagues, I mean, you had Jason and Greg just get so frustrated from all the visceral reaction because, of course, it was such a bad rollout. And I felt bad for them. They took it, you know, they took it. It was shrapnel. I felt bad for them.
    31:41
    And I like Greg. I think Greg does a great job. He does a great job on your show when you guys do the videos together. So it was sad to see those two walk away because I think I could be wrong here, but I thought Greg maybe left for about like four or five or six months. Like he didn't do videos.
    31:59
    And that was a shame because I like Greg. I think what the listener is picking up on again here I want to note is a continued narrative based on complete false statements and interpretations. Brian, you said that basically Greg Bone and Jason Fowler Bailed because of the shit show that was the rollout of TPN Now Hold on a second So the first thing we just made again I don't Here's what I don't appreciate I don't like when you kind of ignore all the Like just direct facts and explanations And say like Oh well, it's based on nothing Because you obviously There's a ton of stuff in there But you're ignoring it But that's your prerogative but that's what's happening. You said, quote, they unfortunately get shrapnel from it as well. I'm reading your quotes. Yeah, no, no, no, that's true, but you just made a comment, and maybe I misheard you, but I thought you just made a comment saying that everything I mentioned, either in the forums or what I'm talking about now, is based on fake news or false stuff, and that's not true. I just outlined, like, verbatim, like, six or seven things. You also mentioned that they failed. Greg and Jason didn't fail. I didn't say they failed. You said the big, the crap rollout of TPN is why they bailed. Oh, bailed. Okay, because I was like, I didn't say they failed. You said in February 2020 that you tuned in and found out the other two folks I really liked and gave me hope with the direct criticism in the past are no longer in the network, Jason and the Bone. Big surprise. Yeah. Why is it a big surprise, sarcastically? Why were you not surprised? That they weren't part of the network? That they exited. Because they have publicly said exactly why they exited. That is what I consider, listener, fact. So when I wrote that, it was based on speculation as far as what was going on. And I said, look, it seemed like they were frustrated from it. In fact, they were frustrated. So I don't know what you're – I'm sorry, I missed it. They were frustrated from the feedback that they were getting because of slanderous statements that were incorrect. That's why they were frustrated. That's why they ultimately left, because people were railing on them about accusations of shit that just wasn't true. It wasn't about a rollout of TPN. That was their idea as well. We were part of a group, but they were having fun in all of that. That's fact. Okay. I'm not, again, maybe I need to repeat the question, but you're saying, why did I write that Bone and Jason left not surprised? I wasn't surprised that they were frustrated and they left the network. Okay. So is that your point? I mean, that's what I mentioned. I mean, how much clearer do you want me to make it to you? I don't know if you want me to spoon-feed it anymore. You were accusing, no, you were, basically, you were trying to make the story in the statement that they're getting shrapnel because of somebody else's problem, somebody else's mistake. Yeah, well, I also, the network and the rollout of the network, right, the rollout of the network and how this thing was done resulted in frustration that Greg and Jason ended up having to endure as well. And in my opinion, there's no question, and I don't mean to say opinion, I hate to say fact on this because I haven't talked to you directly, I just listen to you when you talk, that your idea, and I think even Dennis mentioned it, your idea, yeah, I think you did, you walked up or you asked Dennis or you asked folks, we should do this. Was TPN not your idea? Let's start there and make it real clear for you because you're someone that needs to be spoon-fed. TPN was a group idea Whose idea was TPN to actually start? Don't tell me you guys sat down in a room And all of a sudden you all thought at the same time Because that's bullshit No, it was something that we've all had conversations about So it was myself, Greg Bone, Ken Cromwell Even to some extent We talked with Jeff Patterson at some point So all of us really great friends would always talk about, man, it would be fun to work together somehow. So, yeah, that's how it started. The actual root of how TPN started, the actual idea saying we should bring on to one network. In fact, I think, again, I wish I had the… I think that was a Ken Cromwell and myself. So you and Ken were sitting somewhere or you're on, I don't know, Skype or on the phone, and at the same time you both said, let's have a network? No. I mean, come on, Zach. I think I even heard you or someone, there was an idea. I thought you were walking, I think even Dennis mentioned someone that you actually walked up and said, we want to do this, you want to join us. The idea of the network itself having it under one umbrella, was that not your idea? It was you and Ken miraculously at the same time looked into each other's eyes and said, network. And it happened? Is that what you're telling me? Because that's a great story. Absolutely. But you also cannot tell me that Ken didn't come up to me and say, hey, we should do this. Again, it's an argument. Hold on, hold on, hold on. It's a problem. You have zero knowledge of any of it, but you're presenting as if you do. That's where harm comes from. I'm asking now. And you're either dodging the question or you're getting a return. Absolutely. Ken Cromwell and I had the idea to do this. We've also discussed this idea with Greg Bone in the past, with Jason Fowler in the past. Everybody, yeah, we're friends. We talk about all kinds of shit. I didn't ask you about discussing. I didn't ask who discussed it. I said who thought of it. And you're telling me it's the final answer because I think it's funny. This is actually good. This is not a novel idea. This is something that all different media entities have. This whole network thing, turn on the fucking TV. You'll see HBO. You'll see Netflix. You'll see, this isn't new. This isn't groundbreaking. Yeah, but my question was the Pinball Network. Whose idea was it? And I think your final answer, which I think is really funny, I'll give you a chance to maybe rethink this. Is your final answer that you and Ken thought about exactly at the same time? Or I think you revised it. Was it Ken's? Is your answer that it was Ken's idea? So Ken was the one with the idea and came to you? No, the actual factual answer is Ken and I thought this would be fun. We've discussed this with friends before, all working together to some capacity. Then when we presented it to other people, that's when actual ideas and teamwork started happening. Everything you mentioned was a pivot. We're looking a year and a half after it. The only thing comical is your lack of anything evidential. That's what's comical here. Your emotion to drive a story. I'm glad you pointed that out. So a year and a half later, is TPN horrible? Are we this big mean beast that's harming people? No, and like I said to you earlier in this call, I think that my feedback to you is calling it out like it is. And I think sometimes you're in like a fairyland. But you're calling it out like it's not.
    39:04
    I just asked you. You obviously couldn't give the right answer, which is you. You know that for sure. And you're going to actually say that you and Ken talked about it at the same exact time. You know that doesn't work. I mean, that's not even a reality. And I think everyone knows and sees it. And that's exactly my point about you. Just be straight and just say, hey, it was my idea. I talked to Ken real quick. He said, Ken, that's a great idea. And then we talked to the rest of the folks. You discussed it? Yeah, of course you discussed it. Who doesn't discuss it with other people? It wasn't my question. It was a clear pivot, and that's fine. But just be more direct and just say, yeah, it was my idea. And I would say, okay, fine. It was your idea. Okay, cool. So TPN crawled under your panties enough. But then, in December 2020, we get the Crystals announcement. Your response to the Crystals announcement. And, listener, this is public. He is publicly putting this out here. He said, quote, this is just so dumb. It seems like a play to just get more control back now that the Twippies is not part of the network. Why not just admit that? Fuck this entire thing. So stupid. but I can't wait to hear about how their feelings were hurt after just trying to do a good thing for the industry. Always the victim. I will not support this garbage, and I'll encourage others who see what's really going on here, oh, this fucking conspiracy, to do the same. Twit does a great job, works hard, but fuck them. Let's start our own show to compete directly under the network. Wow, dick move. Why not just partner together? And then you go on this tirade about why Kanae is better, why he's more popular, why people are drinking the distributor Kool-Aid, you said. But this is all off the cuff, off the hip. You're just trying to help me, and I'm the irrational one. Yeah, I actually wrote out. So Greg reached out to me privately, and I talked to Greg about it too and gave some additional feedback because here's the thing with this. And this really, and I'm not even someone that does a lot of cursing at all, and you can tell. I was blown away by the complete arrogance of you to come in and say that. Of me. Nobody else, just me. Well, because you, Zach, who opened the thread up? Who was the thread opener?
    41:19
    Whose thread is that? Just read the username. I believe that out of our committee members, I'm the only one that utilizes Pinside, so likely me. Zach, Zach, again, another pivot. Here's your MO. I love it. You won't answer the question directly when you know you're wrong. I opened the thread. That's a fact, yeah. Zach, Zach, Zach. Let me help you out here. What's wrong with opening a thread? You've opened up fucking 800. You've already gone to the next question because you're defensive. Let me help you. Let me help you here. The answer is, what was my question, Zach? Who opened the thread? Here's the answer. The answer is Z-Many, right? But you don't do that. You know why? Because you're anticipating the next question because you know you're wrong. So, oh, man, just answer the question. I'm just trying to rush through this narrative. Well, I would want to rush through this with you, too, but let's just slowly talk through this, right? So, there's a narrative, yeah. Here's the thing. The fact that you guys, and I'll say when you open this thread and you're saying that you need to have a separate award show for what we have right now, which is the smallest. And again, I mentioned this earlier, a lot of people think that it's very popular. It's not popular. Pinball is so small, okay? And you're telling me that you now need to create another award show. Need is a strong word. Well, why'd you do it? You obviously created it. We need it. Want? well you want it because you want the power that's fine but the community as they responded didn't think they want they thought you needed it because you obviously thought that another war show was necessary so you actually create not one for the people to vote on this is the real that's already been done yeah already helped create that which again we go back I think well I say this afterwards but you actually designed this again back to the power play trip that you have to drive and to dictate who wins the awards I know, no, I'm talking about you, right, which is obviously associated with flipping out, so you make the connection there. Right? So you're going to take the people out of it, and you're going to point yourself as, and I know you're going to say, well, it's a group thing. Okay, great.
    43:28
    I'm the only one that votes now. You ask for voting, and you're going to decide who wins. This was unbelievable to me. This was the ultimate power trip for Zach Many. I just was like, you've got to be kidding me. Yeah, and listener, real quick, as he's putting this false narrative out there, The evidence, if we're talking again, evidence, because it's so funny now, today's age, that fact, for some reason, is fucking hilarious. But actual fact shows that I didn't even vote in the things. How does that help your narrative, though? Shit, that doesn't help, does it? I didn't vote. So how could I be arrogant to pick the winner if I didn't vote? Zach, number one, I don't know who's going on that because you guys control it. So how do you know that's even true besides you just taking your word for it? But number two, you actually set this whole thing up. You set the whole thing up to then have this private voting considerations for games. What are we doing?
    44:30
    It's the whole spirit of what's going on. It's like you add all this stuff together. You have TPN trying to control the narrative and trying to control podcasts. you have this second award show, which nobody, nobody besides you and maybe whoever else in TPN wanted. Okay, no one said, oh, man, you know what we need? Let me ask you a question. So I only create when I know that people need something. Hold on a second, Zach. Tell me the last time you heard on Pinside that we needed a second award show.
    44:59
    Have you ever heard that before from the people? Because I know you're such a people person. You do it for the people. Tell me when you heard that or when you read that on Pinside. I'm curious. I didn't do my research on that, but I have probably a handful of circumstances where people said, it'd be interesting to have an actual like a Critics' Choice Award because every other industry has that. Yeah, I've read that many times. What's your point? Oh, my God. Yeah, you read that people want to have an Oscar-like award show on top of the first award show. But your first answer was about you said you didn't do the research on it. I like that. No, I didn't do the research on the question you were asking because you're just now asking it. But you've done research on everything else. Yeah, as I've documented direct quotes this entire time, yes, I do. No, that's my point. My point is that you don't have that information readily available. Because I'll tell you I don't have it available because no one's asked for it. No one said I want to have a second award show. My question is... And it wasn't. Even if they didn't, who cares? Who gives a shit what we create? Why does anybody care? Let me remind you, because you said so articulately, you said people wanted it. Yeah, you asked that question. I can show you evidence of that. And even if they didn't want it, let's say that nobody asked for it. My point is, to go further, even if they didn't ask for it, Brian, why does it matter? Who are we hurting? We're just having fun. Why does it matter?
    46:24
    Celebrating pinball is a bad thing? I'll explain to you that, but I want to go back to the other question about when you mentioned wanting, and you know nobody wanted it, so that's clear. But as far as who you're hurting, it's a reaction. You don't know that nobody didn't want that. I just asked you. It's like saying, I know that lady over there doesn't want a cheeseburger. Now, how the fuck do you know that? Well, she didn't scream it to me. Well, she doesn't have to fucking tell you if she wants a cheeseburger. Maybe she wants a cheeseburger. She's just not telling you she wants a cheeseburger. That is, again, logic 101 there. That is a narrative push. That's all that is. And do you know why I asked the question? Do you know why I just asked the question about have you ever read anyone wanting a second award show? That's exactly why I asked that question because I know you would say, well, gee, how do I know? I just asked you. And you're in Penn State. You're on there all day long. You've never seen anyone ask that I want another pinball award show. You know that. So you can pivot, and that's great. No, they have. That is a fact as well. And another one to my side. But anyway, as far as why are you hurting people, you know, again, hopefully you pulled Jeff's response to this thing in that thread. But, you know, he was completely blindsided. Like, what the hell? Was he? Do you have evidence that he was completely blindsided? He wrote it in that thread. Oh, just because he writes something, it's correct. But if I write something, there's an agenda attached. I think that's a fair statement. Everything that you write down, that's my whole point. I'm repeating, you asked for evidence. I'm saying it's what you write, Zach. It's what you say. And you go, oh, oh, oh, okay. Yeah, and just I'm being consistent. And just what Jeff said, he actually said he was blindsided. So I thought that was a D move. That's why I reacted to it. I'm actually reading from his own words. So that's another. How is he supposed to explain to me the process as to why Jeff Patterson has to. what does Jeff Patterson have to do with industry awards at the Crystals? You asked me, you said you're not hurting anybody. This is again, and this is why I mentioned that thread. I said, I'm waiting for you to say that you're the victim again because you love the dudes. You go, I'm just trying to help the house. When somebody puts me out as a guilty party and I am merely not, it's hard not to. Meanwhile, Jeff is like, these guys completely blindsided me. And you're like, I'm such a good person. We're just trying to help everybody. I'm always the victim, guys. Bye, bye, bye.
    48:49
    How did I blindside him? How did we blindside him? Oh, my God. I'm going to read Jeff's text. I'm going to take a second to read his message, and then you get back. So the pinball network needs to run everything by Jeff Patterson or Gary Stern. Like, do we have to run everything by everybody before? Zach, Zach, Zach, you got to watch. You might want to edit that part out because you got to watch what you say about Stern, right? Why is that? Come on. because I don't know if you can get as many toppers as you want to sell. I don't know. You've got to watch your tongue there. They limit me on toppers, unfortunately. That's a shame. You asked me what's the harm, and I just explained to you very, very articulately what happened there. I know you're going to say, oh. That it hurt Jeff Patterson's feelings. No, I'm just saying that you make it seem like you're always the victim, and you're doing it now, which is perfect. Thank you for doing that. I mean. Thank you for continuing to show lack of tact or any evidence and to everybody listening. I can do that too. Well, I'll let the listener, this has been an absolute disaster for you, this part, I mean, well, actually.
    49:53
    I'll let the listener and hear exactly what you said and your pivoting answers and the threads and the text and everything else that's in there and they'll make their decision. But I mean, there's no question if you want to ignore what I've been saying to you and you want to ignore the facts which are actually documented, that's fine. But Jack, that's your call, buddy. That's all. So the pinball industry awards were a bad thing, hurt the industry overall? Is that right? What I think – Thrown together haphazardly? No, what needs to happen, because again, some of all parts here as far as talent, and I told you this in the beginning and I'll tell you again, that I think that you and Greg,
    50:32
    which is why I continue to watch videos straight down the middle from time to time, because I do like the chemistry between the two of you, and I do think that, you know, I kind of step back and just kind of just look at it as is as far as a review for a two-moment machine, which is hard to do these days. But there is talent there, Zach, and I told you this, and I'll tell you again, that why are we not combining all the talent we have in this small molecule of a hobby that we have, which is so tiny, it's ridiculous. Why are we competing against each other? Why are we not working together? If you want to help this hobby and you want to be the best person, why don't we combine and help each other? Why are we separating? That would be my question to you. Okay. My response would be, why do you assume that I'm not making every attempt to do that? Why are you assuming that it is me because there's no working together? Have you asked other parties involved? Sure, because I'll answer that. Because you created a second show now. And the person that has the original show. Okay. Who created the original show? You didn't pull this one. Who created the original show? It's under the Twip name. So obviously Jeff, it's Jeff's show. Now you'll say, well... Oh, that's right. Only one person rules if it's under the... That's right. You'll say that Greg and you designed a show under Twip. And look, that's... I'm not saying that I'm not discrediting that. In fact, I'm sure that you guys brought a lot of horsepower to that show, no question about it. But at the end of the day, that's a twit show. And you're saying now that, how do I know that you're the reason? Well, Zach, you're the one, I'm sorry, who created a competing show to this. So I'm saying to you now, directly, why don't you work together? Why don't you? Because I think it could be a great show combined for this dumb little hobby that we have where, like, it's a great hobby, but it's so small. And I say dumb because people take this hobby so serious. and you're like, hold on a second, we have two award show guys. We're not even big enough. Let's have one great award show versus two award show that are so poor. Why are we not doing that? Why don't we work together more? So that's my question. So what is the answer besides have another question? I think you already know the answer without having any basis for that. Okay, again, another – Why don't you answer questions? If you know when you ask me questions, I know the listeners will agree. I've answered questions directly with a real Because why answer questions to Someone who already has a preconceived Idea as to what they want to Spin it as What I'm hearing here is that you thought When we talk here there will be some clear solution On your side you're getting buried on this call And now you're just going to Put your hands down and quit Buried I'm asking you a real question And I'm wondering why you're not giving any answers You're going to say well the person I'm speaking to has already these conclusions stopped. Don't quit, Zach. I don't like quitting. Ask her a question. I'll be fair. Ask her a question. I was hoping that you would answer the question. It's a very simple question. I don't like quitters. I know you're better than that. So the question is this. When have I quit anything? I don't want you to quit. I'm a fighter, baby. Yeah, let's keep it going here. So why don't you guys work together and why don't you bring the best award show for this little hobby of ours.
    53:59
    Why don't you do that? So you're thinking, just before I answer incorrectly, you're thinking create an award show that incorporates critics and... I'm sorry, I'm trying to ask questions. No, just be decent and bear with me then if I have a follow-up. That's all. Okay, so you're asking why I don't want to work together to create an award show that is voted on by people in pinball as well as critics?
    54:25
    No, no, no, no. I'm saying one combined show, whether you want to say it has to be people. Listen, I'd be very disappointed if the one award show we have is critic-driven. That's crazy. Oh, yeah, Paul's right there then. So you're saying, Zach, you helped create a Critics' Choice Award. Why wouldn't you just bail on that entirely and go back to the People's Choice? That's my question. In fact, the question I asked you, which you've pivoted and ignored. Why don't you work together? That's what you asked. I've been out four times, and I think I'm speaking English. Last time I checked, I was. My point is they're different. How are you going to work together on something that's different? That doesn't make sense to me. But you created, to your earlier point, you're saying you and Greg essentially created Twippies, right? And Jeff. And now you're going to bail it because you think it's a bad platform? Is that what you're saying now? I fully support the Twippies. I love the Twippies. Watch the Twippies. Absolutely not. I've done nothing but praise the Twippies. I'm hearing two answers, yeah. Well, you're just saying that. I clearly support the Twippies. I still consider Twippies like my baby. It's part of my family. This is different. And to answer your question that you have zero knowledge of, the reason we don't work together, I don't know. We have all talked about ways to work together, so I don't know. I don't know the answer.
    55:57
    Don't know the answer. I think it's disappointing to hear that because, you know, as... What's 2,000 times 14 million? I don't know. Well, how dare you not know? I don't know, dude. I don't know why he doesn't want to work with me. I don't know. Your question was a ridiculous math equation. Mine was a simple, why wouldn't we have one pinball show and a very small hobby? And you designed in your mind the pinball show to begin with, and you're going to tell me you don't know. That never crossed your mind? That never crossed your mind to have one pinball show and work together? Absolutely. That's why I've made attempts.
    56:32
    I don't know why. Does it take two people to dance? Yes. I don't know why. I don't know the other side. I don't know what to tell you. I don't know why you're making me pull it out of you. But if I have to then, if I can just kind of listen to your sixth answer to the same question, it sounds like two people to dance. Now you're kind of pivoting towards maybe it's Jeff's problem. Are you saying that Jeff is the reason why you guys don't have a combined show? Because now it's getting somewhat interesting, Jack. So tell me, what do you think? No, I talked to Jeff, and there is interest his way to go one direction, interest my way to go another direction, thus two different award shows. If we could work together, that would be great. I've reached out to Jeff not too long ago to see if there's still any way to be part of the Twippies and stuff. So at this time, there's not interest in that on his part, and I respect that. I don't know what else to say. Like, you want it to be a me thing, but it's a nobody thing. It's just it is what it is. It's a question. It's a question I asked, and I feel like now we're getting more of an answer. The last one you gave me was, you don't know. It never crossed your mind or something. That's what I'm saying. I don't know why we're not working together. Okay, well, my suggestion to you is, and I think the hobbyists here would agree, because we're looking for, because, again, I will say this. You bring talent, and Greg brings talent. There's talent there to be had. And folks like myself, other people that love this hobby, let's have one pitbull show. I mean, it's just such a clear solution. And if you're spending all this time, look at the views you have on your pinball show. I mean, the views, it's a joke. Okay, so like. Well, hold up. What's a joke? Well, let's have one show. Let's have one show instead. I'd like to address what the joke of my views is regarding what entity again? I'm saying your pinball, that award show. My point is you could have much more if you have one combined show. I think that is, I don't think, I know it's the ideal solution. So that's my. I just want to know what the joke was. The numbers were a joke. What do you remember? The numbers, I mean, my point is if you look at the numbers on that, and even Twippy's is kind of low, but if you look at the numbers on your show, which is the awards show, were you happy, Zach, with those numbers? A first-year show? Absolutely. We had great exposure. We had great feedback. It was bigger than the first year we did Twippy's. So, yeah, like there's no standards to really measure it by, no comps, if you will. But given what loose comps we did have, it surpassed even that. Absolutely, we were happy with that. It was a clean program. It was awesome. The quality was high. We had a shitload of people participate, even kind of outside of pinball-ish. Yeah, I don't know what was so funny about the numbers. The question was the numbers. And that was it. You like to add in things that, like, no one even, I didn't ask about that. Well, then prove it to me, Brian. What numbers were a joke? Why were they a joke? I'm looking at the numbers as far as how many views you got on that show Compared to what? Were you happy with that? You called them a joke compared to what? Were you happy with that? You called them a joke And why are they a joke? What basis do you have for them being a joke? I don't know Just look at the rest of the viewership on other I don't know Videos that are out there Potentially exposure And I'm wondering Did having a second award show cause it to be lower? Do you think the numbers of the Twippies were a joke? I think the numbers of the Twippies were low as well But I also So I try to counteract like... But they weren't jokey? Not too jokey on those numbers? I can tell. And this is what's great about you, Zach. I can tell because you're soft. There's a sensitivity you really... So hopefully. I can tell it really got to you. Your numbers are low and you know it. My point is... You have no fucking evidence. Here's what I get soft about. I get soft about bullshit fucking people who state shit that's not facts. It's not facts. Two plus two is four, Brian. I get salty if people say two plus three is four. I'm sorry. Yeah, that's a trigger for me. Go to YouTube and check out the hits. It's a fact. I don't want to tell you. What is it? Give me some basis, dude. You are looking ridiculous. Just give me what your basis is on all of these statements. I don't. And I'm animated, baby. I'm always going to be animated. Oh, no, no, no. This one. It's ludicrous to me. This one. I'll never understand it. I want you to breathe in, and I want you to breathe out, and then I want you to take your finger. Oh, fuck this guy.
    61:05
    And I want you to go to your show. This guy's fucking ridiculous. Yep. Okay, and then I want you to answer the question. Look at the numbers. Have you seen the Canadian numbers? They wiped the floor. Oh, that was Zach. Zach, you've got to tell me. Like, that has to be just eye-opening. The slaughter, the slaughter of podcast numbers comparison. I'm surprised we haven't released it. It was embarrassing. But, I mean. You are the fucking scripted. You should see it. I'm embarrassed. You should see it, how much they wiped in that. Oh, my God. I feel like I'm talking to a former president. You love to go, oh, fake news. Look at the facts. Those are the numbers. I mean, those are the numbers. I've been, you haven't reported one fucking fact. What? 5,000 views?
    61:53
    What's wrong with that? Oh, boy. Please explain to me. Zach, Zach, I have a video. 51.78 by now. Zach, hold on for a second. Let me just tell you some more facts. Breathe in because you're losing it a little bit. I'm waiting for one, Brian. I have a video where I show folks how to essentially construct an arcade machine.
    62:14
    That's got over like 75,000 before I pulled it because it was getting ridiculous. So my point is this. Before I told him, it's getting ridiculous. So popular.
    62:25
    Oh, Zach, let's stay on track, buddy. I know you're getting really lost here. What if 5,178 views have to do with anything in your dick measuring contest? Who cares how many views I've got? 5,000 views is good. What's wrong with my 5,000 views? I'm happy that you're happy with 5,000 views. My point is let's make it a bigger show. Let's have one show we can actually have a great show with even, you know, instead of splitting it. So, I don't know. But let's also know. I'm going to the Twippies right now. They're at 4.5 thousand views.
    62:58
    Not as bad. Technically and fact-based, not as much. But I'm not going to shit on those numbers. Do you think there would be more exposure with one show, Zach? Do you think there would be more, I guess, higher viewership if there was one combined show? Just curious. Without you going and pivoting. I'd shift because the facts aren't right either. Yes, of course, yes. I think so. Facts aren't exact. I'm glad you read the facts. They're 5,000. I mean, if you're happy with 5,000, then, I mean, I just told you, I had an arcade machine I put together for 75,000 people, and that's a joke. So my- I could fart in a trumpet and get half a million. What's your fucking point? My point is this. One show would be beneficial for what you, because I know you always want to play the good guy, and, you know, you're trying to help everybody else out. It's clear, you know, what's going on. But one show. That's what I'm saying. Like a fucking- muddy window here's a statement you made you said let's see this was in March 2021 you said quote I think you're referencing the were the Twippies I don't know if the Twippies happened yet you said quote I almost want to read it as did you see the numbers that was the best part Kaneda wiped the floor with them the most embarrassing is the pinball show on the Network so much effort put in, and they were almost fourth place. Canada smoked Super Pinball Podcast, and quite honestly, Pinball Network is not even in the same league numbers-wise. That has to sing if you're Zach. Ouch.
    64:30
    What an asshole, smart-ass fucking thing to put in there. Again, no basis. He has no facts to support any of these claims. I'm sorry. Hold on a second. Hold on. What are our listener numbers for the pinball show then? Answer. What are they? Answer. They're on the, what's it called? I mean, the numbers I have right in front of me. They're on the website. You know that they release the numbers. No, I'm talking about the numbers, the listens to our The Pinball Show. Yeah, I'm talking about the numbers that they release as far as votes. Oh, as far as votes. Yeah. Oh. What are you talking about? You're talking about viewership. You're talking about, did you see the numbers? Zach, who, Zach. Okay. This is, it's amazing how much spoofy you need to be done with here. Who watches? It's easy to make statements like that to belittle me, but I assure you I am a competent, smart individual, and I don't need to have you try to make me look like I'm an idiot. The only thing we have thus far is I have been supporting all of my claims based on facts and based on quotes. You have nothing but slander thus far, so I'm asking you, and even you brought up the stupid fucking award show numbers, and I hosed you on that shit too. so you can continue to act like I'm a baby, but I assure you I know what the fuck I'm talking about. Go on. Continue ignoring. You want to continue ignoring what I've been saying, and you want to continue pivoting. That's fine. I went over the numbers with you. A statement like that. With YouTube. I asked you to. Well, because if you don't understand that viewership equals votes, that's embarrassing. If you're going to tell me that the people that voted for Canada's show don't listen to Canada's show, that's embarrassing. Who said that? Who? No, who said that? Who said that? I just told you. I said I'm talking about votes. You said, well, I was talking about viewership. Zach, the two, in case you don't know, they are connected. Do you see it? They're connected. Again, with the baby talk. Listen, dipshit. I know correlations. I know all of this stuff. Hey. That's a correlation is what you're referring to. Yes, I understand it. Just for the record, just for the record, I'm not, I'll be very upfront with you about this. I don't, I'm not calling you anything. I don't appreciate you saying that. So heads up. My apologies for calling you that. You called me a snowflake. You've made several suggestions throughout this discussion that I'm ignorant and that I'm pompous and I don't know what I'm talking about. So you can cry all you want about me calling you an idiot, but based on what you're presenting today, it's false narrative bullshit. Sorry. It's very clear what I've been saying, and I don't know, like, it's very clear. You were getting very defensive. I'm not getting defensive like that. I'm explaining to you. I get defensive when people say shit that's not true. Yes, always. And this is why I tell you that you're soft, because you need to learn to be able to respond without being like that. Because it's embarrassing, right? Thanks, Dad. I appreciate you letting me know what I need to respond. I'm trying to keep the conversation to its productive, and I'm saying to you is that viewership, because you seem like you didn't understand that. You said, I'm talking about viewership. And I said to you, okay, the votes, Zach, Yes. equivalent to viewership. Now, would you not agree with that? Typically, yes. Well, typically, was you going to caveat it? I can. Caveat it? Yes, I have to because, factually, I cannot say that they one-in-one are related to listenership as related to votes. No. Okay. How? Voters for Canada don't actually listen at all to Canada. What's their agenda? Nobody leaped there. Dude, nobody leaped there. I'm saying if you take the top 10 results You are not necessarily going to go down And have the most listened to show be one The second most two The third most three That's the statement you're making And I cannot agree with that Because that is not true Do you not understand? This is where the blood pressure comes down, Zach Because if you can hear me on this talking Just like I've been talking the entire time My point is that If you're saying that people that voted for Canada Don't listen to the show Who said that? Nobody said that shit nobody said that. I would venture to say that Kaneda gets the most listens in pinball podcasting. I would guess. I don't know that for sure, nor am I going to put it out there like I do know that for sure. I do not. But I would guess so. Okay, you're going to guess so. That's good that you're guessing that. That's all I can fucking do, dude. What else can I do besides guess, Brian? Because it's called logic, and when you look at those numbers, It's called logic When you look at those numbers And you have someone that has that many votes And then you have the pinball show Which was like I don't even It was like We were proud of being in the top three Which is fine Which is Hey listen I'm proud of our show I listen to your show And this is my whole point You try to make a big thing I listen to your show But at the end of the day Facts are facts Buffalo Pinball Which by the way They do a great podcast as well Buffalo Pinball Yeah I listen as well I love those guys I love Nick And you know But you're shitting on me Yeah, I love those guys. But at the end of the day, I'm talking facts based on numbers, and that's what it is. It is what it is, Zach. There's nothing to argue here. I don't know what the point is. Like, you got smashed by Canada. Simple as that. I don't know what they're telling you. I mean, like, it's like, you know, you ask me, I'm looking outside, sunny. And I go, Zach, it's sunny. You go, oh, my God, I can't believe you said it was sunny. Pinball Network is not even in the same league numbers-wise. Well, Zach, would you not agree? Would you not agree? You have the numbers. I don't know what that means. I don't know what that statement means. You don't know what that statement means? Okay. No, I don't. Based on votes, Twippy votes, is that the basis for success?
    70:19
    Is the basis of success Twippy votes? I mean, Jack, the whole. I don't think so. Oh, I don't know what to tell you. I think people like you stumble on worrying about awards so much, though, that you're worried about how many votes people get, who's winning. And it doesn't ultimately matter. It's about celebrating pinball, which is a big reason why we created the industry awards. It's further celebration of pinball. But you're trying to make it into this grand scheme of things.
    70:48
    Answer me this. The last thing. Answer me to this. Please answer me this. I've answered everybody. I'd like for you to do the same.
    70:56
    Is there any way, any way, just be neutral here, Brian. Is there any way that I enjoy pinball, that I am not trying to hose people or manipulate people, and that I'm a decent human being that doesn't, at the end of the day, really care as much about numbers and awards as I do the friendships and the relationships I have in pinball? Is there any way that that is possible? I'm answering the question. I'm not doing what you do and you don't answer the question directly. I'm actually answering the question. Clearly. I've always done throughout the call.
    71:32
    Yeah, there's a part of you, like I said to you even before this call began, we were doing the prep. There's a part of you, no question, that, and I said the foundation. I think it was even the beginning of this call, actually, the foundation.
    71:44
    We have a similar foundation of a love for pinball. Okay, there's no question that I don't doubt the fact that you are in this hobby just 100%, just, okay. There is that part, and that was what I called OG straight down the middle. That was Zach, you know, that foundation, right? It's now been just layered upon layered upon layered with this agenda. But there is a part, which is why I even talk to you. Why would I even waste my time here?
    72:14
    That's why I even talk because there is a part that I relate to. And that's why I still listen to your show sometimes. Do you know what I'm saying? You're trying to paint this picture like I would be rude to you and I'm definitely not. I only read half the statements here that I have noted, and they are pretty egregious publicly. They're pretty nasty. They are slanderous, and they're complete bullshits. Oh.
    72:38
    So, yeah, so it's hard for me not to feel like this is just kumbaya fucking, yeah. I'm sorry. Well, because there's definitely, again, there is feedback. There's no question about direct feedback that you write. Trying to make me better. Trying to make you better. I am. I mean, but see, it's your own inability and sensitivity that you have to actually, because you can tell. I am sensitive. I'll give you that. I am a sensitive person, yes. I'm with you. I know that. I mean, it's no question. But I'm saying just if you listen, and that's why I'm talking to you about this right now directly. I'm not, this beginning about keyboard BS, I'm talking to you right now. Like, that was kind of dumb. I'm right here. I'm talking. I thought it was a good idea, keyboard commandos. but it's not because I'm talking to you and I have no problem nor would I have a problem if you were here I would stop by keyboard commando I mean what do you want no I'm just saying I'll give you a trophy you'll get the votes the most votes no there's a set up of like I'm going to be behind the screen no no I would talk to you about this in person I don't do a lot of shows but I mean I would tell you this in person it's all to say look what are we doing we can do this we can do that and it's because you have some talent there's no question I've always said this like hosting the next awards show. It would be fantastic. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    74:04
    Hi, this is Ken Rodberg with your Jersey Jack update. There's not a lot of news out of Jersey Jack this week, so I thought I would talk a little bit about a mod that has recently been developed for Guns N' Roses. A FinSec user, CyberVenom, had noticed that balls end up on top of the left plastic quite frequently and then go straight down into the drain. He created a small, clear plastic wall that fit in really nicely to keep this from happening. Lots of users on Pinside were having this problem and swamped CyberVenom with requests for purchasing the mod. Once CyberVenom realized that he or she couldn't keep up with the requests, they contacted another pinball mod maker, the Pinball Monk. Apparently, Pinmonk will soon be making the mod, which just goes to show how quickly these things can be developed when there's a need. And you might remember that I talked about Scorebit integration with Jersey Jack Games a couple of weeks ago. It looks like they've got a new how-to video around how to use Scorebit Vision. The video explains how to set up scoreboards, leaderboards, combo boards, slideshows, and streamboards for those that are interested. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg. Hello and welcome to the pinball show's Stern News Update. I'm Craig Bobby. Well, the Stern Army and the pinball world in general continues to patiently wait for Stern's next announcement for what their next cornerstone title will be. And with Star Wars Fan Day on May the 4th fast approaching, one would think that if the rumored Mandalorian was Stern's next game theme, this would be a marketer's dream day to announce that a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away, was coming to a Stern distributor near you. This is the way. Mmm, patient you must be. Long you must wait and see for prize you do seek. Other than that, the 2021 Pin Clash qualifiers are now complete. This year, Pin Clash is using Stern's Avengers Infinity Quest as their tournament game with our own Dr. John making it in at number 23 of 24 qualifying spots with an impressive 29 flips on the Battle Royale Challenge Mode. So good luck to our fearless Dr. John, as I believe he goes up against the world's number one player in Raymond Davidson as they advance to level two. That's all for this week for the Pinball Show. I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    76:43
    Hey, this is Kaz with a quick American Pinball update. I reached out to a couple team members there. I messaged with Dave Brennan at Tech Support. He's celebrating his one-year anniversary at American Pinball. He said that he's working hard to finalize everything for the next game. He also recently had a customer who had issues with magnetized balls. He said to make sure you're not using the chrome balls, you need to be using the carbon steel balls. I also reached out to programmer Joe Schober. He said that although things have been pretty quiet lately, they've been working really hard on the future titles and hope that we see exciting things very soon. I hope everybody has a great week and has fun playing pinball. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Costner.
    77:29
    Hello, and welcome to this week's SHIT Update with Dr. John on the Pinball Show. This week it's all about Fathom in the world of pinball and in my update. I'm lucky enough to be able to spend some time with Martin Robbins talking about the 2.0 upgraded rule set for the upcoming Fathom release.
    78:00
    Thanks for having me on. My first time on TPS, so that's a big deal for me. and first time really on the other side of the microphone, which is also quite interesting. So, yeah, so look, the 2.0 code, it's pretty exciting for me. First of all, Fathom is one of my all-time favourite games. And I actually like the original rule set as well. I know sort of people say that it's a bit shallow, obviously, of the time, but it's also quite brutal. So with the 2.0 code, What we decided to do was tell a new story. Because we've now got a ball save, obviously, via an auto-plunge, there's a lot more that we can do. So we wanted to tell a story. We set the theme that, you know, you've come back 40 years later. You are the daughter of the original diver that went missing. Obviously killed by mermaids. Let's take a spoiler alert, everyone. Or sirens, as Dennis or Zach said.
    78:57
    They're mermaids. Zach? Mermaids. So there's that. And so the idea is that you're obviously, you've dived, you're trying to work out what's happening. And the first thing that happens is you're faced with mermaids. And how we've done this is effectively mermaid and battles, which you could call them modes effectively. And then we've got mermaid multi-ball and we've got lagoon multi-ball. Think of battles and mermaid, everything green. So that happens in the right scoop. Lagoon and anything associated with the Lagoon is blue and will be the top right scoop via the left orbit. There are four artifacts that you need to obtain to get to the final wizard mode and they are obtained by defeating the Mermaid Queen, by completing Mermaid Multiball, by completing Lagoon Multiball and by completing the Playfield Super Jackpot which is obtained by a series of how many drop targets you... banks you get down, how many lanes you get down, pops and spinners, etc. That will then light the super jackpot for you to be able to obtain. So, I mean, in the original rules, of course, it was all about the holes and the inline drops. So you're going to utilise that left drop bank target and the three in the middle more? That's correct, yeah. So to lightly do multiple effectively, you've got to knock down a series of blue targets, either via the left bank or the top inline drops as well. But those smart drops really come into play during multiballs and mermaid battles.
    80:35
    Intriguing. Wizard mode? Mini wizard mode? So, yes, the mermaid treasure is the wizard mode. We don't want to obviously give too much away. We want people to play the game. But think of it as a lot of these battles and the battles, the mermaid in battles, think of them as a fighting mechanic. You've got health, they've got health, you've got to be able to get them before time runs out. If you do defeat a mermaid, you then have a cave escape hurry up. There are four different ways you've got to escape back to the boat. Because once you've defeated them, they alert the mermaids and they're all coming to get you. So you've got to get back to that boat. So there are four different hurry ups as well. Cool. The trend with Wizard Mode. Do you end the game in the Wizard Mode, or do you restart like Lord of the Rings? What did you decide? Well, I mean, I think if you end the game, that's it, and there's nothing more to do. So it does loop back to the start. Okay. More Lord of the Rings than TNA. Yes, correct. The animations? Yes. Have you seen the animations? I have. They are absolutely still being worked on. The framework for the code is in already. We are doing a lot of game testing at the moment. Balancing is really important. Choreography is really important as well. Stacking rules that we're putting in place as well. But yeah, animations are currently being worked on at the moment. Music is almost all done. We've still got a couple of extra tracks to do. And we've also hired professional voice actors. So people that have actually been on the big screen, and the little screen as well, to do the call-outs. So because it is story-driven and because it's the kind of game where you really just want to be looking at the play field, I want the game to be telling you what to do as you're doing it. I mean, you've also got the two screens in the LCD, which will guide you as well. But I really want the game to be telling you what to do as you're doing it. Aussie twang, neutral accent, US, pirate. What sort of accents have we got? All of that.
    82:44
    They're international murder people. Well, again, because we've actually employed these really, really good voice actors, they are known for doing accents around the world. And the two screens, both involved in displaying animation, one showing score, one showing animation, how's the balance with the two screens? Yeah, so you're right. So the right-hand side really is the general information you need to know about the game. What ball you're on, what player is up, what score you've got, what the value of a jackpot is. On the left screen, that's really telling you the progress of the game, how many Mermaidens you've defeated, what's your progress on the playfield super jackpot, and where you are with the Mermaid and Lagoon multiples. And selection of old rules is at the start via Flipper Press, I assume? Yet to be determined. I mean, that's sort of... Me personally, I would like it to have the option either you can select it via the menu in the game, so it either starts with the old rules or the new, or to have a screen that comes up and says, what would you like to pay? Flip left for original, flip right for 2.0. I'm looking forward to it and the new factory. Yes. I hope Damien continues to work hard in Billiard, but yeah, we'll get some more details as time goes on. And I've been told sales are going very well. That's all I'm privileged to. And he recommends we've got two weeks left to get your orders in for the Mermaid Living Edition. it's the clan members have had their dibs and now it's out to the public but I do recommend if you want it get your order in soon that's all Damien will say did you order one? I may have number one on order exclusive got a match for Kels cool alright Mark thank you for your time no worries thanks everyone thanks for your support so that's it for this week but remember like Sebastian says things are better down there when it's wetter. See you next week. Darling, it's better down where it's wetter. Take it from me.
    84:52
    Always great hearing from those correspondents. We've got some news, enough bickering between you and I. Let's talk some pinball, which we all love, I think, right? Let's do it, yeah. So Stern Pinball's in the news. On the Pinball Show interviews, Matt Morrison talked with John Rarthamill, director of mechanical engineering at CERN, Pim Ball. He's been there for the last 20 years or so. And I don't know if you guys listeners have been able to listen to this episode, but it was super fun because nobody ever talks to John and he's, I mean, he runs the entire mechanical engineering and we know that this hobby is turning so much on the engineering and mech side. So it was fun listening to him. He first started on T3 with Steve Ritchie, which he called a baptism by fire. Working with Steve can be challenging at times, he said, but they've become great friends. You've heard that at times. Richie's a passionate fella. Yeah, Richie's definitely an interesting guy. I kind of just paused for a second though Zach because I think what you mentioned is pretty interesting to begin with which is this industry is turning so much to mechs and then magic And I would almost completely disagree Really? Yeah. Do you think that's really kind of gets your input? Do you think it's really the case you look around at all the new games we have, I feel like this industry is focusing more on lights and the LCD screen. Yeah, you're completely right. So I'm kind of curious to get your thoughts on that. The hobbyists want it to be mechs and magic, but yes, it is turning into themes. Sell, light shows, sell, themes. It's themes. Let's not joke ourselves. It's themes. It's important. There's no question that themes brings it to the table. I'm interested. I'm happy to hear that poor John's getting some spotlight because, in fact, we need that type of infusion into the industry. We need the mechs. We need the more focus on that. I just don't know how interested companies would be to do that considering they're selling like hotcakes. They're giving us less. They're asking for more. And they're still winning. So I'm kind of curious. What do you think the incentive is for companies to incorporate more MechStack? What do you think that incentive is, though? It would be difficult to have a lot of incentive when numbers don't lie. I mean, if we're selling games and they're based on theme alone, and that's kind of the big factor when selling games. And it's hard to wrap all that money and effort into mechs. That's why you see some of these, like American Pinball with their non-licensed titles, you see them pretty heavy with some mechs throwing a ball up the play field, etc. But, yeah, there's no arguing that themes are what sells in 2021. Yeah, I do agree with you there. That definitely is the point. What's interesting is American Pinball, which is struggling so much, I do agree that they have tried to put in some mechs. They just faltered so much with the theme. It's like, why doesn't that company's ad get it at this point?
    87:53
    I mean, you talked to them, I think, last time I... I spoke with them, yeah, at length. Next time you talk to them, have you sat down and said, hey, guys, I love what you're doing. I'm a distributor. I want you to succeed. Here's how you succeed. It's very simple. Let's not overcomplicate it. I would take a look at that whiteboard. I'd erase everything. Erase everything. Yep. We've had that conversation. Good. Yes. I'm so glad to hear that because it's such a simple solution. It is such a simple solution to make money in pinball. But look what happened, though. They went to Hot Wheels, which is a licensed title, but then they pulled all of the mechs and stuff that they typically put into their machines. I would argue, though, Hot Wheels is also somewhat of a lukewarm theme. I agree completely. Yeah, I think if they really were to nail the theme, Rick and Morty, you know, nailed the theme. Wonka, to me, is an amazing theme, but I think you and I are the only crazy people that love Wonka that much. They just don't understand. They don't. They're crazy. Wonka is probably one of the best themes for a pinball, period.
    88:52
    If they just need to nail the theme, just get a licensed theme, preferably from the 80s, and build from there, and they will succeed. Because they manufacture very well. They are on top of it. You get quality. People know their quality. And then I'm hearing from you they're going to have a non-IP or they're going to have a custom theme, whatever the hell it is. Why? Why would they have the next game be another one of these, you know, Cobra Fests? I mean, unless I misheard you. I guess because it was already done. I know, but you know what? You've got to cut your losses. You've got to say, listen, guys, our name is so tarnished right now. We really need some help because the Hot Wheels, that thing didn't sell well. So we need a winner. Let's look at the catalog and let's push forward with the winner. You're preaching to the choir on that one. We do know that they may not understand the whole theme thing yet, but CERN Pinball does. John, I found this interesting, Brian. John talked about we hear all the time everybody wants these metal ramps, metal wire forms. He actually said plastic ramps offer more freedom with trajectories and such, but metal ramps are just simpler to design. They're just flat metal. You're kind of constrained to that flat metal. But they're more difficult to make. But he likes plastic ramps. And for flow and speed's sake, I don't mind a great plastic ramp either. Yeah, I think if you include some plastics in there or go plastic ramps, they could work. There's no question about it. I do prefer a metal ramp just because I feel like it looks nicer and feels. I like that sound. I love that just that feeling you get when you hit it. But the plastic could work. There's no question about that. And he was talking about what it's like to work at Stern Pinball because sometimes, you know, people poo-poo Stern Pinball saying that they're so authoritarian and structured and, you know, you can't get by with much. But he actually said it's a little bit different working in the pinball industry than the highly structured organizations that he was used to working at. Stern, for him, has always been more free-flowing, more free-thinking environment that allows for that creative atmosphere, which from a dealer standpoint, I have learned. But as a hobbyist, I didn't always see it that way. So I was glad that Mr. Rothermal, I don't know, that's a tough one. I'm glad to hear that he was saying what I've been saying as well. Yeah, look, Stern is killing it over there. So, you know, whenever, and I'll be the first to say that sometimes I'll criticize Stern as far as what they're giving to us, but I'll always, I will always caveat with the fact that I wouldn't change a thing if I'm Stern. As a hobbyist, I'm saying, guys, we're getting taken. But man, Zach, do they kill it or what? They get it produced. They get the games out. I know a lot of times people say quality is much better than others, but I also would argue they're doing less with the tables and there's less that goes wrong. but these guys have such a great balance they have it figured out and I'll tell you unless we start you know talking with our wallets a little bit more I don't see any incentive for them to change it and I would love to have more in their games I love the way they feel right but I am happy to hear that the designer there or the mech guy you know he's saying that you know it fosters a creative relationship or a creative atmosphere because that is always helpful it is As a hobbyist, it's tough for me to balance it out. If you have to pick a this or that between things, do you go theme and feel? Because for me, and I've said it publicly, Stern games just feel the best. They're the most fun to shoot. Or do you go more mechs, more magic?
    92:35
    Because apparently we can't have it all. Apparently not. I mean, you can with, hopefully when they come out with that, I'm going to butch their name, but it's Kapow, I think they call it, right? So that's the high end Stern. If they could nail the theme, and this is my personal favorite. I know it's yours as well. We actually share a lot of. Yeah, we do. We do. The themes. Back to the Future to me. I'm looking at, I'm in the basement right now. I have a Back to the Future Part 2 trailer, poster. I love that movie, right? So if they could pal that, okay, so you have a Stern feel, I'll pay a little more money. In fact, that's what this industry, I mean, there's no question our hobby. We have the money to pay for these things. And, you know, we have big collections.
    93:15
    Let's do it, guys, right? Let's do something that's going to bring it all together, because you're right. The feel of Sterns, they feel snappy. But in my opinion, you've got to have, I prefer the Mechs and JJP, so my collection is mostly JJP. But, man, I've got to have a couple of Sterns because you need that feel, right? Jurassic Park, unbelievable game. Best one Sterns ever come out with. Brought it all to the table, that's probably the best answer to your question, Zach, is, you know, that's the one I feel Sterns brought everything together, as much as they can from a mech perspective. That dinosaur, unbelievable. I love it. It's really cool. Which ones do you play more? Do you play your Sterns more or your JJPs more?
    93:55
    Quite frankly, I wish I was playing them more to begin with. My kids started playing pinball now, so they're playing a lot of it.
    94:01
    I probably, it's a good balance because too much Stern, you feel like it's a Stern to Stern. So I do kind of balance it out. I try to play, no time with that answer, but I do kind of balance it with them. I'm looking around. I mean, Turtles is my other third. I think Turtles is just so underrated right now, it's ridiculous.
    94:19
    Yeah. Now, you are a JP fan. You like the Jurassic Park. I didn't know you liked Turtles to that extent, so that's great to hear. What about the other games? Like, what about Stranger Things? Because I get shit on for that one a lot. Maybe even by you, but what's your thought on Stranger Things? No, I haven't. So I did a quick review when I first got Stranger Things. I'm a huge Stranger Things guy, huge fan for me. I bought it day one. Shout out to Cointaker. He was a great distributor. And I know Zach not to say that. I know you do all the rest. Cointaker's damn good. I'm with you. But they're good, right? So, I mean, you have some good folks in this industry. A word from Melissa. It's good stuff. Yeah.
    95:01
    You know, this is why I think, okay, so I have the pro. And I pause because I go back and forth with Stranger Things. I'm definitely not nearly as much a fan as you are. But the review I put on Pinside, because I did a real quick one, I was one of the first people, it wasn't as bad as people thought. To me, it felt very much like an attack from Mars, but with a Stranger Things feel to it. But I felt like it was so underrepresented with the atmosphere and what they could do. The call-outs were horrendous. I'm a big music and sound guy, big, big time. So if a game has great sound, like David, I think his last name's Steel, So his games to me are just unbelievable. So if you put a great layout with that sound, it's like a winner. A theme, of course, as well. I just felt like it really didn't capture me, you know, didn't really impress me, but it wasn't as bad as people are saying. Now I hear that, you know, there's always people like yourself that are saying this thing is so amazing. I actually played at recently Helicon Brewery, which is an unbelievable brewery. Great location. Great guys. Chris and Chris, they're, you know, top tier there. I'd say the premium. I always thought that screen was janky. I don't think it's innovative. I think people are, I know you were a big fan of it. I think it is such a complete waste and such a mess. It doesn't fit the theme. It doesn't work very well.
    96:20
    I wasn't happy with the updated code, but I don't think it's as bad as some people say it is. I think it's average to me, you know, average at best. I just feel like they left so much there that they could have done with it, and that's disappointing. Yeah, I like the projector. Speaking of the projector, when John was talking to Mr. Morrison, he actually said that Stern almost gave up on that projector. It came very close. George Gomez, very concerned about it. They had to sacrifice some things to get it in there, but at the end, it did come out pretty well, he said, and it fits into the apron, which was a major, major challenge. I love projection mapping, and anybody that's brave enough to take that on, especially Stern Pinball I commend them for that and I think it looks pretty awesome in a game room not to mention the UV kit that everybody exploded and got angry about but that's a game changer to me yeah anytime they try to innovate in any capacity even though I don't think it's that innovative I still will I'll be happy to hear that they're trying something new total misfire total waste of resources in my opinion now the UV kit I don't even think we have enough time to talk about that disaster and horrendous move that they put in there but Do you own it, the UV kit? Own it? What do you mean? Do you have a stranger thing? No, no, no, no. I don't have it anymore. Oh, okay. No, I mean, I think the UV kit, what it brings to the table is cool. Probably the coolest thing that they do with that game. But me, I'm a principal guy. I really am. And it drives me insane that these poor people are paying LE prices and sharing is going to them. Again, it's all about how you communicate to your customer. It's just such a poor move on their part, and it just leaves a bad taste in their not so horrendous on their side. But, you know, tech-wise, a step away from how they did it, I think it's probably the coolest thing in Stranger Things. Yeah, so you probably like the gesture they had for Led Zeppelin, where on the premium they give you not only the Art Blades, but the integrated lighting as well. Yeah, I mean, look, at that point, if you're buying a Led Zeppelin, they should be giving you that plus a bag of money, right? Oh, now you're asking for more. Yeah. See what happens? Well, I mean, if you're taking Led Zeppelin as is, especially, and I played them all. So I'll tell you right now, I wouldn't comment on games unless I play them. I think it's really, it's not fair if you don't at least play these games. And I'm just lucky because Helicon is such an amazing place. And I played both the Pro and the LA. And my God, what a complete mess that game is with such an amazing band. And I remember you were talking about it when you first was introduced by Stern, and you were kind of like poo-pooing Alien, you know, at that time, which is ridiculous to me. But yet you were supporting Led Zeppelin saying, yeah, like, it's great. I just, I can't even believe that, Zach. I like Alien. Yeah. No, when you were talking about Alien with Pinball Brothers and, you know, you couldn't, I guess, figure it out to be a distributor with them. I know that you always, you went very negative on it. And I'll tell you, Alien, I am so happy to hear that other people are going to be able to experience this game. Alien, and something that I think Chris on Kaneda is absolutely, he's starting to realize. You can tell he's starting to realize this game is actually going to be pretty good. It is such an amazing total package, theme, music, assets. I don't care about Sigourney Weaver. Honestly, it's great. I'm telling you, I know it sounds crazy, but if you play that game, it's Alien, and Sigourney Weaver is a character. I'm telling you, it all works. It's such a great game, and it works well. And, Zach, the price? Are you kidding me with that price with this market? Oh, my God. What a deal this game's going to be. Is it proven, though? Is that company proven? Well, I'll tell you. I had the Highway Pinball one, which is – you couldn't get more of a mess than Highway Pinball. Why did you sell that one? Oh, because I heard the remake was rumored too much. And for me, I don't like the part component of Alien where you couldn't buy the additional parts. I don't like having to rely upon secondhand market to get bored. Absolutely. It worried me. And as soon as I heard about Remake, you know, and it was you could hear it becoming stronger and stronger. I said, you know what? I'm out of this one. And that one, I'll tell you, worked absolutely fine. I had no issues with my last one. But I didn't want to risk it. I said, you know what? I'll get the new one. I don't blame you. Yeah. This company looks like, from the videos, they've done a horrible job marketing this game.
    100:47
    He had a great user, I forget his name, but out of Denmark, I believe. Oh, on Boxer Retro's Thin Joe, I believe. Yes, thank you. He did a great job. You haven't seen the video. He goes over exactly what any new user wants to see, which are the boards underneath the game. It looks super clean. The game's got an incredible mech, even though people say it's simple. To me, you don't need it to be complex. so people don't understand. Just give me a mech that is well integrated that makes sense. That's a great mech, yeah. Right? So I'm excited. It's a fun shooter. I like Alien. I'll own Alien. Flippin' Out Pinball does sell Aliens. Good. Yeah.
    101:25
    I'm a fan of that game. It's still wide body. It's still not the strongest shooter, in my opinion. I would even venture to say that Led Zeppelin shoots way better than Alien. But is it as fun a shooter? I'd probably say no. I like, Alien's just fun to shoot. Yeah, it's a different game. So, wait, hold on. So, you guys are a distributor now for Pinball Brother Alien as well? We are providing, yeah. Yeah, we are, we're dealing aliens there, yeah. Cointrinker's like the main dealer, and then they are working with a couple different distributors around the country to help. Yeah. Alien's a complex, not complex, it's a wide body, but it's definitely a unique shooter, I should say. But Led Zeppelin is literally open shots all day long, and it's just so boring to me. But I don't know. I mean, again, I know people, you know, there's some people that like it, but, man, what a huge mess. And talk about who even, talk about who even, like, Led Zeppelin, this thing should still be on people's radar. And it's like yesterday's news, which is so disappointing because that band is so good. All right, so what else did they talk about in this? They talked about ramp development. Now they've got 3D printing technology that's helping them test out some of these ramps. They even have a model maker at Stern that was hired a year or so ago creating the wire ramps to test. This has become very much more efficient, and their turnaround time is better now with a new model maker. So they continue to try to get games designed efficiently and quickly for people. he also talked about engineering Game of Thrones with Steve Ritchie and said that Steve Ritchie actually wanted a more complex battering ram in that game but the cost just couldn't allow for Ritchie and we see this as a theme Ritchie same thing he wanted in Star Trek that Vengeance ship listener was going to be quote much much and quote more complex per Ritchie's desire but there's just no way due to the complexity that he was wanting and the cost. He used the example like the air camera in NFL games, that camera that flies around to the action, but it turned out just to be way extremely costly to do that with that vengeance ship. And Steve wanted a wandering ship on that game, which would have been unbelievable. Yeah. You know what's interesting though, Zach, is that I would think, and you let me know if you disagree.
    103:51
    A man with that lineup of proven hits and that respect in this industry has challenges getting next in his game, but a new guy like Keith Ellin, who if rumors are to be believed, and I think you probably have more information on this as well, his next release is going to be ridiculous, apparently, as far as what was able to be put in. Why do you think Steve's struggling but Keith succeeds in that area. Why would that be the case with Keith being the newer guy? Now, I know he's definitely had hits now, but man, we're talking about Steve Ritchie, the original king, or used to be the king, I guess. What do you think's happening there? Do you believe Steve in what he's saying, or do you think he's really... I think at some point the rookie of the year or the sophomore phenom starts playing basketball better than the aged veteran. I think that's where it's at. As to why or the assumption that Keith gets more resource to work with, I don't know there. I have no clue if that's true or not. But I think Keith Elwin is on top of his game right now, and I don't think Steve Ritchie necessarily is. So you see that difference there. Yeah, I get that, but why doesn't he get the resources? That's more just a budget blocking and tackling decision. I just don't know. But I don't know if it's true. because Keith utilizes a lot of pretty common parts. I mean, the T-Rex is probably the most complex that is used, but Iron Maiden doesn't really have mechs, mechs, not much. No, no, Iron Maiden doesn't, but Jurassic Park being the example here, there's no question that was a custom, that was a big deal. Apparently, if it's rumored to be correct, Godzilla's going to have a lot in there. It's just interesting to me because if you believe what Steve's saying, which is what he said, which is I couldn't get it through, So that's interesting that CERN wouldn't put that type of commitment into their big horse, right? I think it was, if anything, a good decision that they didn't because, from a business aspect, Star Trek sold bundles upon bundles. Now, adding, you know, $50 to the bomb of every machine, was that really going to sell that many more machines? I don't know. They were guessing that it wouldn't. There's only so much. But basically, this guy was saying there's only so much money you can put into a pinball machine to financially even be worth it. Yeah. No, and from a business standpoint, as I mentioned earlier, these guys know what they're doing, right? So they are making the right calls. But it's just interesting how one person gets it and the other one doesn't. That just kind of piques my – especially someone like Steve Ritchie, right? They still claim that the bomb is the same for every designer. Interesting. Yeah, take a look at Black Knight and then look at something like Jurassic Park. No IP, right? Yeah, no IP. It's a mech, barely a mech.
    106:45
    It's a pretty cool mech. It is a cool mech, but it's a fast toy. I think the coolest thing is the topper by far on that machine. Yep. Man, so I don't know how they – I wish I was a fly on the wall of the meetings there, but I'm with you. I'm the type of hobbyist that will pay $5,000, $8,000, $15,000 more. Sounds crazy, listeners, but $15,000 more on a game. If you are giving me every damn bell and whistle and technology and innovation, if you're just going full stop filling that dang play field in and it still shoots great, I'll pay the double the cost. I'm with you, bro. Yeah, I agree. And this hopefully could bow with Back to the Future if it happens. I'm waiting for one of these companies, whether it's Thurn or JJP, to just really, really test the market because, in my opinion, they haven't even started. This 12.5 from Collector's Edition, the Elvira, they sell it in seconds. I'm waiting for someone to drop a $20,000, like, ideal machine like you're mentioning back to the future. I think, and I'm curious to hear what you think, 500, whatever you want to call it, 500 Capel back to the future is 20K. They're out the door in two days. What are your thoughts? I think it works. I think it works too. Yeah, I think it works. We're going to see it happen. But the more stuff you put in, the longer it's taking in R&D, development, all of that's going to be longer. Production is going to be longer. And I guess they've got the equation figured out that, you know, not doing that makes more sense to move units. But I'm with you. I'm waiting for that one company, whether it's Stern or somebody else, that just says, look, we will dump everything until we can't fit anymore, and the price is the price. we're going to make the same margin, but if it costs us double, it's going to cost you guys double. I think they sell still. But I don't know if quantity-wise they sell as much as just if they didn't have the mix and they can produce five times as many. It's always a – The volume play is going to be different. And that's why I don't even think J.J.P. should be in this game like they are with the volume. They don't need it. Yeah, and they have had – I mean, the last couple games, they've kind of – I think one could argue that they've reduced the amount of stuff in their games as well. No question about it. I mean, I have Wonka, and I have Pirates, and I have Wizard of Oz. I had a Hobbit. It just sold, and it sold in like two seconds. By the way, we'll talk about that during Market Trends. But Wonka compared to Pirates and Wizard of Oz. They do a good job now covering up. And I have Guns N' Roses, too. I'm sorry. They do a good job with the new JJPs of covering up the lack of mechs.
    109:24
    Because you feel like there's no question. You look at Wonka. there's no question I feel satisfied that it has enough in there to qualify as a JJP but they definitely reduced the expectation or the delivery of like true mechs like they had in Pirates of the Wizard of Oz and for good reason if you're truly in this for the money which they are why are you doing anything more than you need to and I hate saying that as a hobbyist but god this you know our you know the folks that are serious in the pinball are paying for it they are so why would they change it I don't expect J.J.P. to change that business model. I think we're going to have this J.J.P. light that we've been seeing. It still satisfies you, but it's a shame. And it's still a hot commodity, a hot product right now, because what do we see on CEs now, Ryan? These things are selling out before they're even released. They're holding their value. They're exponentially raising in value, one could argue. So do you think they get greedy? I think they definitely are going to test it, and they should. And if I'm them, I don't say they're doing the wrong move. Listen, when they can increase the price of Guns N' Roses by $1,000, which is, I think, almost 10% of the total price, you put a 10% increase on a product that has a cheap price. Mid-run, or not even mid-run. Exactly. And nobody even blinked an eye. They heard nothing. Crickets. So they're saying, wait a minute, we just jumped $1,000. these guys are definitely seeing the writing on the wall they should and i expect them to uh you know the later releases will be probably 10.5 for the le's like when toy story comes out i'm thinking it's going to be no question 10.5 for the le the collector's edition i expect them to bump it up to 15 or close to i could see him doing it yeah i mean this is going to move until we say no right and i have to blame too man i mean geez i don't like toy story that much but would I spend $15,000 on an absolute loaded machine that's a Carters edition?
    111:21
    I mean, geez, I would, but I think JJP is going to do a lighter version. I don't think Toy Store is going to be back to the old ways. I think you're going to have more of the Wonka GNR stuff. Yeah, I think that's Pat Lawler now. Yeah, I agree. I think they sell out within seconds as well, if not already kind of on dealer's list full. We don't know what the dealers, because there was a little bit of a mess with the dealers and the CEs on Guns N' Roses, who knows? Who knows what they're going to do?
    111:48
    So I'm always mixed on whether or not companies and manufacturers sell direct or they sell dealers. This little hybrid sometimes gets messy. I don't know what's going to happen. I have no clue. That's, again, why I can respect Stern from a business aspect so much. They make it very clear for me in business and me as a hobbyist too. We were talking about it earlier About this mind-blowing mechanism That could be coming from Stern And this engineer did say There is a mech that's about to come out Done by one of the younger designers That is, quote, blowing everyone's mind End quote I think he was alluding to Harrison Drake's work On the next Elwynn machine It's pure speculation, pure guess No basis besides just what I'm guessing And that's going to be a big one Yeah, I think it is. I would still suggest to the listeners to keep it real. I mean, you hear that from Stern, you kind of get your hopes up, and we've seen that happen with Wonka, and I would hate for people to be disappointed. But if you look at Jurassic Park and you see the magic that they had there, which I do think was a magical thing, even though it was in the Jurassic Park Data East version in some capacity, I still think it's a magical play for Stern. I just would level set, you know, don't expect this to be super incredible. I mean, we're still talking Stern here. But I'm excited. It gets you. The high train is left for that game, Godzilla, if it is Godzilla. I have no interest in that game at all, unfortunately. Neither do I. Yeah, but it's L1 and L1, man. I mean, I didn't like Iron Maiden. I don't like that music. And I, you know, adjusted the music so that I could enjoy the game. But, man, it doesn't shoot well. And Avengers, even though it is a little bit the code, I 100% agree with you on your explanation of the code. I think you gave it, what, like a C or something on your review. I 100% agree with you there. I think the code really hurts that game. But what a layout that game has. Oh, boy, yeah. Now, speaking of, you were talking about magic and pinball machines. I have attributed you specifically in raising the bar for magic on specific machines, namely the Jurassic Park. For me, a big missing element of the Jurassic Park pinball machine by Stern Pinball was lack of assets from the film, which we all grew up loving, and that was it for me. To me, you fixed that game single-handedly by that personal hobbyist update that you did, integrating some of the film clips and audio into there. How does that feel, creating something that you get that type of feedback on? Yeah, well, look, and to be clear, it definitely was a collaboration with our user, Tim, who did a great job with the audio, and then him and I, I introduced him to, oh, I shared on HeyLook, you know, you can put video in there. And look, from my perspective, that game was such a downer because no assets. And I know people say, oh, I'm so glad they had some storyline. Not me. Not me either. Okay, good. I don't want like this, like, you know, kind of alternative universe nonsense. Like the first thing I did was take that fake Jeep out and put the real Jeep in. And, you know, for games that I care a lot about, if I can somehow incorporate what I think is a game changer, which is having those videos, I'll try and do it. And I was able to successfully do it. I did it, you know, with Turtles to bring in the original theme. And, again, it's a personal use type of thing. And I would never sell it for any reason. That's crazy. But to me, it made a huge difference because, again, I appreciate music and just the whole video package so much in these games. But to me, it really made Jurassic Park go from a good game to, honestly, my favorite game that I've had for now almost two years. And people always joke about how I sell games. That is an eternity for me to have a game that long. Yeah, you move them as much as I do, yeah. Yeah, you used to move a ton of them. Back in the day, you were moving games left and right. So, yeah, I mean, to me it's a big deal. So are you working on another one in the future? No, no, no. This is nothing. Again, it was more personal. And until I see it's Stern or JVP, I think Alien, I'm going to look into it as well. Oh, please.
    116:08
    That I think is a great thing that has either missing assets for some reason. That's the only incentive I have. We need Sigourney. Come on, Del. I'm going to look into it. I mean, I'm going to look into the code and see what they're doing, and if it's able to. I know there was a gentleman out of Germany, I forgot his name, but what a talented guy on the OG side of the house with Alien. And he's done, it's like user Avanti or Avanti or something like that. He actually figured out how to incorporate sound effects and some other things into the OG code. And I know the new code is very similar. They're having the same code or do it out of Florida, I think. So if we could figure it out, Sigourney will be in that game. I like to hear that. I'll leave that nugget out there. I'm going to try. What if I send you an Avengers? Can you dabble with that a little bit? I did. I dabbled in Avengers and I got the movie clips in there. Oh. Yeah. They're all personal things to me. Sure, I know. I get it. Yeah. But I put the music from the movie. I put the clips from the movie. I don't have any more Avengers because I got eight slots in this basement and my wife. It's a great problem to have, by the way. Oh, this is all first world. The fact that we're talking about pinball now, we're so lucky. You and I, another people in this hobby, we're blessed beyond belief. I mean, this is the biggest bunch of nonsense. I always remind people we are easily in the top one percentile of blessed in the entire existence of humankind. It's just, that's a fact. Question. If you have pinball machines in your house and you're doing it responsibly, okay, I'll leave it that way. if you're doing it responsibly, you should look around and say to yourself, I am incredibly blessed, and just be happy about it because, come on now, this is such nonsense we talk about this stuff. I'll have to catch you off air because I just got in for the second time an Avengers LE into my collection. I don't know why I took it in on trade, but, oh, I did. Guilty. Now, to end this conversation about Stern pinball, he's talking about his dream thing being Pink Floyd. I don't think it's a great, great seller, but if it's passionate about it, it is what it is. I appreciated that no one gets to hear about the engineers. I think that Matt Morrison kind of looking and tackling finding these people to interview instead of just the regular lineup of people that we hear on all these podcasts was great. I also liked that Mr. Rotherman was humble, said that no matter what engineers are doing, The focus still should be on the game designer because they are truly the lead for these creations. And I thought very highly of this individual, and I cannot wait to hear more about him and from him. Yeah, that sounds really interesting. I'm going to see if I can check it out because I always love hearing from the creative folks, right? Yeah, the King of Flow talked this week as well to the Ludicrous Pinball Podcast. Steve Ritchie joined.
    118:58
    Not much new information here, but I love this quote from Steve Ritchie talking about working with licensed properties versus doing original IP like, well, I guess original IP like Black Knight, but you know what I mean, listener. He said, quote, I'm going to say this as delicately as possible. I was looking to run away from the misery of dealing with licensors, two of them in a row. They were just frustrating for me. I think he was referring to Game of Thrones and Star Wars. That would be my guess anyway. So that's why he wanted to do Black Knight. He wanted to run, he wanted to flee away from working with Disney or Lucas or HBO or whoever it was. Can you talk about the amount of pressure, Zach, with Star Wars? You mentioned Star Wars with Richie. I mean, to your point, he's probably, he was so excited to run away because that is the biggest IP out there, right? And the amount of pressure he probably felt from that.
    119:54
    I still think it's a, I still love that game. I love that game to pieces. I don't know how you do, but... You've owned one, haven't you? So I haven't owned it. I've played it a number of times. What kills me is the code. I'm not a multiplier. I'm not a score. Oh, I hate that shit, yeah. Yeah. I hate that, but I like the... I like Dwight Sullivan rule sets. The structure he puts on them. The breadth. I always know that I'm going to get fun modes. I know I'm going to get some tough modes. Some moments. He codes moments unlike most any in pinball. But, yeah, multipliers I don't pay attention to. Zach, that's a loaded statement with Dwight. I mean, Ghostbusters, I think he did a terrible job. Oh, so much fun. He's a terrible because the guy put time into it, but in my opinion, that's poor code. And the revision he did like 16 years later actually made it worse. I haven't really played the new code. I like the old one. You don't like those modes? You don't like the ladder progression up the middle like the 2046? Oh, it's so much fun. So the modes themselves on paper I like. It's getting to these modes, the ladder progression, I didn't like it that much.
    121:04
    And Star Wars, I think he did a pretty poor job too. I think Turtles was probably the first code that he's done that I've actually enjoyed. It's not perfect per se. I mean, you know, nobody is perfect, but what a great game Turtles is code-wise. I think Turtles, I don't know why nobody's talking about it. I know. Besides you, I think. Honestly, I think you're like the only person. And I'm a shill.
    121:26
    Well, in this capacity, not so much. But, yeah, in Turtles, I would agree 100%. I like Dwight James. I love or hate Dwight, I think. I think some people, it's this growing groupthink that pinball gets stuck into a lot, where you get one predominant person that just screams from the rooftop something, and then it's kind of the cool thing to do, just lump yourself without doing the work yourself, lumping yourself in, oh, yeah, it's the light show. Oh, yeah, it's the multiplayer.
    121:56
    They don't think originally. They don't just put their own thought into things. It bugs me in pinball sometimes. I also think Stern puts out so many games. You've got to be a real standout in these days. Jurassic Park, huge standout.
    122:13
    Game of Thrones, Zeppelin, a complete mess. Turtles, which was very good. A lot of hype in the beginning. Sold a lot in the beginning. I'm sure it did. I'm sure he did pretty well because that's a great theme.
    122:24
    But it's just, you know, I can see some people saying it's repetitive a little bit here and there. It's tough. That's the other thing, too. I'll tell you right now. Tough games really bury games from getting to the top tier of popularity because people don't like tough games. You're so right. They don't. Especially from a sales perspective. They just, yeah, they don't. Yeah. He was talking about development of a game. He believes that Black Knight Sword of Rage is, quote, the most intense pinball machine ever made. I've played them all. It just is, end quote. And I thought, eh, it's a little bit of a stretch. It is intense. It's brutal. I was playing. I just got in a pro, put that into my collection just to see the topper work.
    123:05
    That's a true story. And I also played this last week at a customer with an LE that I was helping move around, played his as well. I gotta say the premium LE is just not where it's at on Black Knight the pro is actually a really good and fun game the license the theme does zero for me but it's a damn fun game but you can keep that premium LE no thanks, you stay up top of the playfield the whole time I don't like it if I'm a listener right now I'm saying god you guys are talking too much about Black Knight it's such a mess that game whether it's LE, Premium, Pro, whatever version, that game is a mess. But the topper is unbelievable. I've seen it in person. You've seen it, obviously. And why in the world did Stern not just put Shredder's head on a topper and sell it? Zach, I would have given you $2,000. I just give it to you right in your hands. Say, Zach, take my money. Give me a Turtles Black Knight topper. But otherwise, we got this redundant Turtles logo garbage that I was so disappointed with the Turtles topper. and they had the perfect topper ready. I like the eyeball that moves, Technodrome. That's cool. And the redundancy is two nuts to take off. Whoop-de-doo, that's done.
    124:23
    They probably even knew that, so they probably had to, so they put it on there and made it easily removable. I'm a topper guy. Are you a topper guy? I am a topper guy to reason. Hell, yeah. It's got to reject. Like Wonka, I went out and bought the LE. The Wonka Topper from JJP, not even the collector's edition, which I think looks terrible. The LE one, the one they sell in the store. The Waterfall? Yeah. It is gorgeous, and it's thick. It is thick. That's a heavy thing, yeah. You could hurt somebody with that topper. I mean, you know, if you put somebody out, you say, I hit him with the Wonka Topper, you'd understand that that thing is like a bat, but it's really nice. So, Wonka owners, check it out if you haven't already, because it brings such a nice touch to the game. You're going to start seeing the value of Wonka toppers at aftermarket one go up because I believe they're gone everywhere. So once that happens, that's when that price starts. So you guys heard it here. There's a preemptive market trend. That'll be worth some money. I don't know why JJP doesn't do toppers.
    125:22
    JJP loves to leave the money on the table. Honestly, it's like they think about leaving on the table. Guns and Roses. I have an LE. I don't even like the collective edition to me doesn't even look as nice as the LE, and I've seen it in person. What? Oh, my God. That purple and that artwork with the robot. Get out of here.
    125:40
    The art here with the cool-looking real signs from the concerts. That's cool, too, but. Where's my topper, JJP, for this game? Where's my topper for Guns N' Roses? Are you impressed with the CE topper? There's not much to it. I like the soundbar. Yeah, I bought the soundbar for my LE. I need a topper. I mean they just are they going to come out with t-shirts? I want t-shirts, get out of here I want to talk with you get out of here let's see Steve Ritchie also talks about the new Mortal Kombat film since he was associated with the video game just saying it's better than the other ones and he liked it he said at one point Star Trek Next Gen they were thinking about doing an under siege with Steven Seagal, that's hilarious just go listen Go ahead. One sec. Did you see the Mortal Kombat movie? I did. We just seen it last night in full. Yeah, I saw it too. I know that, you know, your recent video about taking this thing past pinball and talking about other things. By the way, I think that could be interesting.
    126:46
    Hopefully less about big arcades and nobody really wants that. But more so, I mean, come on now. Nobody wants those things. But more so like. Nobody wanted pinball back in the day either. Oh, Zach, those things. Here's the thing with those machines. They could be emulated in two seconds. That's the problem. and you can have the same experience emulated. So the guy that likes virtual pinball, it's not the same. Exactly. So virtual pinball is a good segue, but virtual pinball really makes some strides there. The emulation, to your point, on these arcades is literally one for one. I mean, they basically just... One for one? Not to ball physics. Sure. I'm sorry, I missed what you said. I said not to ball physics, though. So you cannot emulate... If your question is, can they emulate it for virtual pinball, the answer is not as one-for-one, because, again, the arcade emulation is literally extracting the ROM out, and you're using the same ROM. So it's the same thing. Virtual pinball can't do that, but I will tell you that the – and I've been doing it for a couple of years now, VPX, and now they have VR. I think it's VRVP. They've really – it tricks you, man. I'll tell you right now, it's not – but it does trick you, and I know people have tried in the past, like a year or two ago, even six months ago, seven months ago, I'm seeing advancement. And if you get a controller like I have with force feedback, that's the game changer, right? So I got a VR headset, which by the way, VR is amazing if you haven't tried it. Not the junk PS VR, I'm talking like, you know, the Index, Valve Index. You put that on, you have 3D, the games look amazing, super high def. You have a force feedback controller that literally makes you feel like, you know, you've got the pops, you've got the slings. It all comes together, Zach. Your brain is tricked. It's an unbelievable experience that people haven't tried yet.
    128:34
    See if you can figure it out. It is a little challenging to get together, but what a great. I have no significant beef because if people like it, they like it. It doesn't bother me any. And it is, believe it or not, virtual pinball is bigger than actual mechanical pinball It just is More people watch it More people view it more people own it It unfortunate Well the entry point is so much easier right I mean as we get higher and higher in prices,
    129:01
    what's funny is people say, how do we build this hobby? We build this hobby from people like me who don't care about tournaments, who don't care about score, but actually just like to have it in the house because it looks really cool and it's fun to play and people come over to my house who are like, you're a pinball machine? That's really, what are you out of your mind and they play it, they go, oh, this is kind of cool. We're the folks that are building it, right? So in virtual pinball, if you have just the exposure because it's generally cheaper, I think it just helps the hobby out because you're going to play a virtual pin and say, you know what? I'd love to see this in real life. Sure. Yeah. Absolutely. That's why I don't shoot on it too much. For the people that say it's the same, that's where I'm like, oh, come on. No, it's not the same. Yeah. Well, I think it's a little aggressive. if you say it's the same, but it's so good that your brain thinks it's almost the same, to be honest, right? And again, it has to be set up right, Zach. So, like, you see a lot of these guys online sell these pre-made games. First thing is, if it has a TV, forget it. Game over. You need a monitor, right? You need a 4K monitor. You need proper force feedback, not the sound nonsense they say. Then you're up to a couple thousand there. Well, so that's the thing. If you buy a pre-manufactured or manufactured by somebody else, they're going to start charging $5,000, $6,000. And, you know, they'll hear, well, you have 60, 70 games. I'm saying VR, right? Get a headset. Use VR headset index. $700 probably, $800 used, right? You already have a PC. You get a nice graphics card. And I'll tell you, graphics cards are now insane because everyone's doing Bitcoin and cryptocurrency. So the graphics card prices are crazy right now. but once they settle down you can get like a good enough graphics card for this thing for maybe $500 now you got $1200 you have the VR you have the graphics card just try it out see how it is and then if you want the force feedback controller that's probably another $1000 or so you're looking at maybe $2000 there's always a place for it man yeah so here's the thing though Brian if I close my eyes and visualize and use my hand It's fine I'm saying That works as well But it's still not the real thing Still not the real thing Yeah but again I don't think anyone who plays virtual pinball Is looking for the real thing What people are playing virtual pinball for Is the multiple games in one And if it gets you close enough That's what you're looking for And we're talking about new pinball Haggis pinball recently announced The Fathom Revisited we talked about last week. This week, Dr. John was nice enough to get Martin Robbins, the rules creator of Revisited 2.0, joined him for the Pinball Show Correspondence, and he discussed the rules in the overview of this game that I thought was kind of interesting. Basically, you're the daughter of the original diver that was pulled down by those mermaids back in, what, 81. The game does have a ball save. It's got an auto-plunge on it, so you can get some more in-depth code here. Your goal is to, because this is the I Am Very Much Like You, Brian, It's not about scoring for me. It's not really about turn them up. I'm into moments. I'm into tasks, et cetera. And that's what Martin has conceptualized here. He said you need to obtain four artifacts to get to that final wizard mode called Mermaid Treasure. You're going to be battling mermaids. Those are kind of your modes. Battle interfaces. Think Deadpool, right? Everybody's got a health bar kind of thing. But the four artifacts, super simple. You defeat the mermaid queen, there's an artifact. You complete mermaid multi-ball, there's an artifact. Complete Lagoon Multi-Mole. There's an artifact. And complete the Playfield Super Jackpot. There's your fourth artifact. There's also four escape hurry-ups in the game. The code framework he updated everybody said, that's complete. Animations still being worked on. Music is nearly done. And Haggis hired professional voice actors to do these call-outs. They help explain what to do in the game. Mr. Robbins said, hey, whenever I'm playing a game, I like when the voice actors are kind of telling you, cuing you on what to do next. Last couple points that he made is the two LCD screens in the apron. The right one is used for general information. The left one is showing game progress. And as to how you select which code to start, the original code or the 2.0, still kind of being determined. But overall, sales going very well over there at Haggis for the Fathom Revisited. What do you think about this release and this game? I think it's very smart. in fact I think it's rather embarrassing that a small company like this steps up during a very slow time to announce something that actually makes sense ideal timing yeah American Pinball is still kind of like lost trying to figure it out and you got Haggis this little small guy out of Australia who's going to take a proven game that I'm not a big you know simple or the older games at all but something that Fathom's always taught caught my attention too just the way it looks and it sounds so So great choice.
    133:59
    The big question for me is, and I haven't heard anyone talk about this yet, I'm kind of curious to get your thoughts. The market they're targeting for people that truly like that game are older people, folks that have been in this industry and hobby for a long time. They're the same people that are very jaded about the pricing, right? So they'll say, oh, when I was, you know, in ball of fishtails, it was like $100 and like, you know, maybe a double cheeseburger or something like that. It'd get ridiculous. So, like, you understand the prices have gone up, but are these folks who are already bitter about the pricing going to respond well and purchase the Mermaid? Because if you're buying this game and you're not buying Mermaid, you've missed the boat, okay? You're not seeing things clearly. The Mermaid is the one you get, okay? But are they going to pony up and pay for it? Now, you're going to have flippers. No question we'll do it because, as I like, Kaneda says, speculate is such an interesting way to say it. But flippers who will just buy it to flip it, and then the true users, the ones that actually want the game, are they going to pony it up, Zach? I'm not sure. I think they will, but what do you think? I think that they are showing that they are, and I think it makes sense because if you're only aiming to do $250, Brian, then, yeah, you can pull off a fathom with that price range on it because you're going to get the diehards that want it. You're also going to get the new pinheads that really like pretty stuff and like new code and new innovation for old kind of things. I think it works, and it's still surprising to me that they haven't sold out of the Mermaid, but they've got to be close, got to be close. I was surprised, too, to see that because, to me, it sounds like a slam dunk. I think it's a very good move, but I'm surprised it's still available. Well, and you've got overseas kind of throws a wrench into it. I think they had a couple things upon announcement that created a barrier to purchase that kind of stumbled a little bit out of the gate, and there's still an old game. you can still spend $9,000 on damn near a brand new Stern LA, any Stern premium you want. So for people with smaller collections, this might be a tough buy. Yeah, I do think the market's older, and that might be a little bit of a harder sell for folks like that. Because, again, they're just bitter that these things are so high to begin with. But what a great move by Hack. I actually hope them the best. I hope that, you know, I hear they have other games that they already have lined up that are probably taking a similar strategy. Four other ballets. Yeah, and that Playfield video, the original sledgehammer, that you had Deep Root talk about it, and these guys out of nowhere did it, and I respect that. And I think that ultimately the reason this works, I still say, is that 2.0 code. You can't remake something this simple, even if it's pretty.
    136:40
    I'm telling you right now, I would have not paid $9,000 unless it had that 2.0 code. I wouldn't have done it. So are you in personally, Zach, on this? Yes, I am in personally for a mermaid edition. Yeah, I think it's a good move. The code is such a sweet addition because you could have saw them just not have done this at all with the code, but what a great addition. So I really hope they invest. Well, and my thought was there's minimal risk here for me. I mean, they're never going to drop below the value that they're selling for, I don't think, especially once all 250 are sold. And I want to selfishly unbox it with Greg some stupid way. And what am I out? So the worst case scenario, I'm out $1,100 if this company just totally tanks. That's the risk that I'm in. Otherwise, I don't think I lose anything. I agree 100%. My rule in pinball, though, is if I'm not interested in the game, I don't buy games just to flip them. And I'm not saying you're doing that either, but the reason why I haven't gone into this game is because I agree with you. There's no loss. In fact, it will probably go up. I just don't have any interest to own a fathom, and therefore it would just be a flip, and I don't do that just to flip. So, again, I think it's going to be a great success, and I think it's a good move on your part. Very cool. Now, I don't know when we'll get that, but it should be coming at some point. This last week, speaking of coming, we're going to have June 12th, PIN Clash. 3 p.m. Eastern Standard Time, PIN Clash is happening because all of the qualifying rounds ended this last weekend. This is Ping Flash 2 on AIQ. Qualifiers ended this past weekend. I want to mention some notable qualifiers. They took the top 24 that are going to go into the actual round of Ping Flash, the tournament. Matthew Richardson, number one spot, only 11 flips to get to that Battle Royale completion. That's insane. I don't even know if that's possible, but he made it happen. and I've got to give a shout out to my team members at TPN here. Number six, Robert Byers, top rope pinball. He gets the bye, so number six, nicely done, Byers and top rope. Number 11, my buddy and only the greatest pinball player in the world, Raymond Davidson, TPN, Ray Day Pinball. Number 14, Neil Graff, TPN, Fox Cities Pinball. Also, Tom Graff, his father, would have been 22nd, but not applicable due to being in the same household. Congratulations, you guys. Dr. John Cost, number 23, squeezing in there, and I believe Carter Castleman, number 25, because of the ineligibility of Tom Graff at 22, of Emily and Dr. John and of pinballers respectively. And a special shout out to other pals of the show, Lindsay Rogers with 35 flips, Brian O'Neill, 47, Nick Brown, 47, Rebecca Solem, 72, Stephanie Traub, 84, Jordan Berger, 109, and Jose Chong is 140. Nice job, everybody. You can go to clingclashtourney.com to find out more, but always love this event, and I'm not much of a competitive pinball follower. Ooh, this next story is for you, my friend. Brian, I'm going to call this story Made in Taiwan. It's Home Pin Visiting the PNMPP. Let's try it.
    140:01
    PNMPP. Pinball News, Pinball Magazine, Pinball Podcast. Home Pin Mike visited them on their podcast to announce that Home Pin moved to Taiwan.
    140:12
    Do you care? I'm actually surprised you even mentioned it. I mean, what a... I'm surprised you even mentioned it. Everyone listening to this is like, okay, I mean, that's good, great. Well, they've got Jill Balser and Jeff Bush now creating their next licensed pin that he said is, quote, very strong in America, end quote, regarding the license and globally recognizable. Yeah, yeah. This is the part I'm going to fall asleep. Hey, Zach, why do you think the Wizard of Oz Yellow Edition, I was curious, you mentioned that. You think that's the best version of the Wizard of Oz? My head almost exploded when I heard you say that. I thought it was a great opportunity for me to talk to you about that because can you help me, maybe the listeners, understand why you think the Yellow Brick Road Edition is the best edition of Wizard of Oz? instead of the home pin story. I love it. Yeah. So in my opinion, the Yellow Brick Road is the best addition because, and this is, I'm not saying objectively it is. I'm saying personally for me it is. Because you get, I like the glitter play field. That adds a nice little piece to the aesthetics. And the big thing for me, honestly, is the cabinet. It's the cabinet. I want to line it up to my other newer Jersey Jacks. otherwise those cabinets man they look funky side by side a hobbit cabinet and a uh a dialed-in cabinet oh it looks funky man and that's a big one for me i'm looking at my wizard of oz ecl next to my pirates next to hobbit and i mean it's not like it's an alien machine with that crazy head i mean i don't see the big difference in fact you're losing you're losing max like this is where i just came you're losing a monkey losing a monkey i mean the monkey is is really cool. When it works.
    141:59
    It's always my, I've had four Wizard of Oz pinball machines and this one here I've never had any issues with that monkey if you take care of it. Look, I thought it was bullshit when they came out and said, oh, it's more, I thought it was bullshit too. So, the monkey's a miss. I agree. Monkey's a miss but wood apron is a hell of a lot nicer. Wood apron looks better. Can't say that that wooden apron doesn't look awesome. The nicest aprons on the ECLE, the wooden one, the green, I don't know if that's, I mean You don't have to break your back working on the boards in the cabinet, back behind with that magnetic display. It's just more accessible.
    142:33
    I like the RadCal. Like, it's just aesthetically more pleasing to me. Oh, boy. Yeah, that yellow is a big mess. They're all beautiful. Oh, I did realize, as I finally fixed my Wonka CE listener, I had to change new trough boards. Out of the damn box had issues. But I changed trough board, and I changed – I had a coil that kept firing on that side Vuck kick and finally fixed all of that. Added Penn Stadiums for all you haters out there. Added all of that. Played it last night for over two hours by myself. I swear to you, Brian, I hate that game more than any game I've ever played. It makes me so incredibly angry. It angers me more than you anger me. That's how bad that game angers me. But just like you, though, I just keep coming back for more. that game is greatness it's a little bit of a it's a little unfair sometimes the pops if you own Wonka you just call Scott up right away and just get Penn Stans the game needs it get the ones that have the diffuser because those stripes kill me yeah and I need to try those because I just always get the standard sets oh Zach don't stripe it up it looks terrible yeah you gotta have the diffusers let me ask you a question for listeners that don't understand the difference between the collectors and the limited edition because I'll tell you I have limited edition and I love it with the blue. Collectors has that red. You think it's worth the upgrade to collectors? Now, take away the market, right, and say, okay, obviously via collectors it's obviously a consideration, but what do you think? I mean, did you have an Ellie initially? Yes, I did. I don't think it's worth it from a financial standpoint. You're not getting that much more, but I prefer the Powderco Slut. Man, the LEs are so pretty, though. You can't go wrong with the LE. You can't go wrong. I like the art package more on the CE, but is that worth that much more? No. I like the sparkle, but is it worth that much more? Eh. I even like the coloring on the CE a lot, and I like the undercab integrated lighting. I like that you get a mirrored back glass that is unobtainium. You can't buy that mirrored back glass, nor can you the topper, no matter what people think it looks like. Like, for me, it makes sense, but because it's one of my favorites ever, and if you find a favorite ever, you might as well go as much in as you can on it. So, yeah. So, yeah, it's not worth it, but I think it is worth it to jump up to the LE, and I've said that as a dealer whenever people called me. I wouldn't even have LEs, and I might have standards, and I'd say, honestly, this is a game I'd go LE on because it's that much more of an impact for that Wonka Vader for me. It adds lighting to it as well. The powder coat is beautiful. I think that's worth a jump. Before prices were crazy, I would have totally disagreed and said definitely get the standard if you don't care because the standard and I had a standard and I have an LE now and there's not a big difference really. Not in play, no. The prices on standards, I mean There's folks asking like $8,000 for a standard. And you're like, are you out of your mind? But I think they're selling, Zach. So, you know, the current pricing, I would agree with you. I would say spend $1,000 or so more and get the LE with the Invisiglass. That powder is the nicest powder JJP's ever put on any machine. It's pretty. The sparkle's gorgeous.
    146:01
    Myself, I'm thinking about do I want the collector's edition or not. That's why I asked the question as well in case everyone's also in a similar position. I would give the nod to the playfield coloring to actually the LE, like the art package. There is a lot of reds and oranges on the CE where I like the coloring on the playfield of the LE. I'll give you that. Yes, that's why I like it, too. I'd be able to stick with this, but it is a good game. The music, the sound effects drive me crazy sometimes. I'm not a big music sound guy, so it's never – I never did anything for me negative. I always liked them. Now, if we're ending out this Made in Taiwan story that Brian tried to divert away from, the license stipulates that the game needs to be out by the end of the year, so we may see it. The game's got a 27-inch monitor and a DMD, which sounds ridiculous and stupid, but Mike said that he couldn't tell us why it had a DMD because it would give away the title, which I don't think it would, but it'll make a lot more sense. He wants to go with light, fun, and happy without a deep code set. This thing's doomed to fail. I just hope it's not a great license because there goes another great license. So, yeah, we'll see what happens. It's almost like this guy just wants to throw money away. I don't understand these decisions, but I'll leave it there. I don't understand a lot of decisions from manual editors. My God, it's such a simple thing. You would think so. You would think so, but it's just clearly not. Yeah. Maybe I need to own my own pinball company. Do you think I would be successful or do you think I'd fail like everybody? No, I think you know how this thing runs. I think you have good insight as far as what makes a pinball successful. I think we talked about it together here. It's a very simple formula. The only thing you don't have, and I wouldn't have either, is the manufacturing component down. That's the hardest part. Exactly. But you do see companies struggle. Forget manufacturing. They struggle with just the design and the game. I mean, look at American Pinball. They have manufacturing down. they don't have the other piece to me which is so simple so evidently companies don't get it even if you can manufacture but no I think you would do well you just need a manufacturing side of the house I just need the majority of it you just need everything else you know what you should honestly talk to American Pinball and say look American Pinball hire me I will make this company successful you manufacture I'll design it I throw you a couple pieces of insight too to really ice the cake But look, I've been very close working for manufacturing on a couple of occasions, but turned them down because ultimately, you've got to move. The cost of living in Chicago is higher.
    148:47
    And I hate to say it, but being a really reputable and customer-supportive dealer, I think, does better. Yeah, I mean, I'm not nearly as serious in this as you are. So, I mean, you obviously probably done more homework on it. But to me, it's just I cringe. I cringe when I hear the American Pimples going to come out with a unlicensed IP. And I'm like, guys, is anybody awake? Is anybody listening over there? You know what I told him? I'm going to be honest. Here was one of my among, you know, a couple hour discussions with them on numerous occasions. I said, if you're going to go, if there's no mind changer, you're going with a non-licensed thing. Okay. Yeah. If you're doing that, limit it to 100, raise the price, fill that thing out, because the only chance you have to selling an unlicensed pinball machine 2021 is if it has more mesh than anything. Limit it and have them ready to go, and you'll sell out immediately, and then move to the next one quickly. That's my best advice. I would agree. You want to create the promo. Get out the door and just say goodbye, see you later. You've got to have something that sells that pin. Yeah. They're still trying to sell Houdini's and stuff like that. I mean, granted, it sounds crazy. People are still buying them. They really are. Not at a heavy pace to keep you in business, but it's not like they're not still selling. When somebody comes to you, Zach, and says, do you have a new in box Oktoberfest or do you have a new in box Houdini, do you just maybe have them sit down and say, can we talk about what's going on in your life? Because you are missing everything, what's going on right now. I mean, brand new in box, people are buying these games? That's crazy. They're not going to.
    150:33
    And I'm pretty frank and real with people. There are sometimes situations where I like to get what people want and what they're looking for in their pinball machine, whether it's their first one or their tenth one. But once I have all the information, I'm usually pretty good at directing them in the right direction.
    150:51
    And sometimes, believe it or not, there is an algorithm that leads people into an American pinball machine. So, yeah, it makes sense for a lot of people, and they'll be much happier with an Oktoberfest than they would a CERN Pro in certain situations. But for the majority of time, I push towards a CERN or a JJP or even a CGC whenever they have games to sell. But right now, I have no JJPs to sell. I have no CGCs to sell. It's a hot market. That algorithm must be really broken if they're following it. But it's like the girl on the show, I forgot if it was the last show, that got a yellow edition. Oh, Amanda Hamilton, yeah. Yeah, first of all, she was great. I loved hearing her perspective. She was good, yeah. Oh, my God, I felt so bad for her. I said, new in box, Yellow Brick Road. And this girl, she evidently loves Wizard of Oz. I was saying, man, I wish she would have reached out to me. I would have found her a Ruby Red, would have found her an ECLE. Probably would have been priced cheaper. You're going to find her an ECLE with 2.0 boards? Come on, Brian. So 2.0 boards, I actually found it myself, and it was a struggle. So I didn't say 2.0 boards, right? But you could pay someone. You know, there's a guy in Texas. I love that guy. I think his name is Derek. Yeah, disgusting. Love Derek. He'll throw 2.0 boards at people. So my point is this. I just feel like some people sometimes, I just felt bad that she got the yellow, but I'm sure she enjoys it. I'm sure she loves it. But, man, I feel bad she doesn't get the full experience of the monkey and some other things. respect that. And hey, I didn't even sell it to her. Oh yeah, I know. That's right. She said she got from somebody else. I think you were plugging something else. Like, well, what about this or that? And you know, I love Zach. God bless him. Gotta do what you gotta do. Hey, I hear you, man. If you're in the game and you've made the commitment for your family, I've told you this before, you've made the commitment as an distributor for your family, and I respect anyone who's gotta put the food on the table. I hear you. I hear what you're doing. It's the both sides of your mouth thing that drives me crazy. But I hear you as a distributor. You've got to sell, sell, sell, man. I would never – yeah, I wouldn't point somebody to a bad product, period, or something that they didn't want. Those poverty sales? Exactly. Oh, my God. Those are the smartest product in pinball.
    153:05
    It's the safest buy. No, I know they sell well now, but before they were selling for hotcakes, you were selling them as if they were good, and I would cringe watching those videos. I owned them all, even before I was a dealer. Owned them all. Oh, God. Loved them. Look, they've gone up. The market for toppers is just, wow. Anyway, that's a whole other story.
    153:29
    Oh, boy, what a hell of an episode this has been. I feel like anything we try to do in Market Trends is just going to be lackluster after all of this debate. But we're going to try it anyway. You want to give a stab at yelling out Pinball Market Trends, or do you want me to show you how it's done, Brian? Definitely not. You can take care of it. Ladies and gentlemen, your favorite pinball podcast segment. No matter what all the haters say, it is hashtag the truth. Is it? I don't know. The numbers don't lie, or do they? We had an argument about that. Pinball Market Trends. Well done. Troll edition. It's my favorite segment.
    154:06
    Yeah, but is that really saying a whole lot, though? I love Market Trends. Do you? Do you think it's the greatest pinball podcast segment of all time?
    154:17
    Let's not joke each other. It's better than the master that Kaneda did. I think segments are kind of dumb in a single segment. But it's a fun part of the show. So anyone who doesn't like market trends, I don't understand that. Dennis, I love you, but I love market trends. No, I was going to say, you know what it is? It's the tournament players. The true tournament players don't care about market. Oh, nobody cares about tournament pinball. Sorry, guys. Really get me in trouble, Brian. Thanks a lot. Turning up this week is Stern Pinball's next release. Now, look, Dennis will be rolling his eyes right now. And guess what, Den-Den? Rolling back the other way, counterclockwise, baby, because it is what it is. Never once in this entire five, six years that I've been in this industry have I ever felt the hotness of pinball right now, specifically that of Stern's next release. I've never as a dealer. in over two years, two and a half years. Never as a dealer in two and a half years had the desire and the interest list for anything close to what this is. This is turning out to be, it's going to be a mess. So many people want a limited edition of the next Stern. They don't even care what it is. We hear the rumors of Mandalorian. I have over 50 people that I could sell an LE2 in 10 minutes. Over 50. No dealer's getting that allotment, not even close. We may get one of the bigger ones with our friends over at Cointaker, Tilt. What's up, guys? But none of us are getting that much. And what do you do with that? All I try to do is be honest and say, hey, I can tell you right now I'll put you on the list, but you're not getting one. Get on other dealers' lists. You're not getting one. I don't know what to do. How do you make everybody happy? And Kanade has been talking about recently, Brian, as a listener you know,
    156:06
    are dealers going to get to the point where we start, we as the Royal We, start raising the price past MSRP to fit? Because he's saying, why are other people making thousands of dollars? Why aren't the dealers making the money? Yeah, I hate to agree with him, but I think he's right. Number one, I think he should get a cut of the revenue here because there's no question he's been pumping it. And to hear that from you, to say that's the most you've had, and we've had some real good titles come out since you've been selling, you know, Jurassic and Turtles, like just hype games. He should get some. I hope the designers of these games are getting paid well enough. I mean, I don't know what they get paid, but I'm telling you. Yeah, I'm with you. I would be all for one Kaneda making money off the hype train, but I want him to reimburse all the money when he shits all over a pin without playing it. So I think he'd still be in the red. I think he'd be in the red. No, but that's crazy to hear that it's so popular. I'm not a huge Mandalorian guy. I'm not a huge Star Wars guy, but, yeah, that's interesting. It's so hype at this point. I think we all know it's probably Mandalorian, and we'll see what happens. I sure hope so. That's interesting. Man, people are going apeshit for this thing. And it's like a trend. I think it's just the market right now is just so hot in pinball and in other collectible industries as well. But for some reason, we've hit the apex where people are going nuts. And look, other rumored games, Back to the Future is a rumor, Keith Elwin's next game, they're full. These games aren't even coming out forever. They're full already. Like, what do you do? Oh, my gosh. I'm telling you, I don't, if it happens and they actually start adding on and making a little piece from it, would I think that's wrong? God, I don't know. It's a good question. I mean, yeah, because these guys are slipping. I know, but I struggle, man. And I've held a really strong stance on never going over MSRP for new stuff for a long time. I know dealers do, but I just don't like the move. I have a job to sell, and I don't like that move. Yeah. It's an interesting topic, though. To each their own. Trending down this week, is anything besides Stern Pinball or Jersey Jacks next game? This is a blanket statement, but it's simply true. CGC is a fleet behind the wheel. they're in a ditch somewhere. I have no clue. They haven't produced anything in nearly three years by now. And if it is the rumored Cactus Canyon, okay, look, let's play this game. Sure, it's going to sell out like that, if anybody heard my little snappy clicky there. But it'll sell out quick. Guys, what are you going to do then? You're going to take another three years to develop another pinball machine? Now is the time. Either build them and sell them, or step aside. I don't know what to tell these people. American Pinball, we were already talking about that at length. Deep Root, the time has come. The time is gone. Alien Pinball. I hope that Pinball Brothers can produce these things, but I'm at a wait and see on that. They're going to move in. They're going to wait. I mean, they already have seven or eight or nine already packed up and ready to go. I think there's a – because I'm getting one, and there's going to be a – I've got five or ten on order, sure. Yeah. No, but they're coming. They have pictures. People have received a couple. I think you'll be fine. Pinball, Alien Pinball is going to be totally fine. CGC, I totally agree with you. I don't know what's taking them so long. In fact, every manufacturer, like we've said before, besides Haggle, seems to have fallen asleep besides obviously starting making these games. But what about market trend CGC games as far as the value? Because Attack for Mars. They're all on fire right now. They're on fire, Zach. The LEs are going for $10,000. Are you kidding me? They were $8,000 like two weeks ago. They're absolutely on fire. CGC anything, limited edition. Through the roof. On fire. Through the roof. Now, I will say that I don't understand why Medieval Madness is still holding a higher value than Attack from Mars. I think the big title for CGC should still be Attack from Mars LE because you can't doll up that machine to get the topper and to get the other things. You can on Medieval Madness. So when I see Medieval Madness prices, it's a little bit head-scratching to me. But for what it's worth, if I'm investing in one of those, Attack from Mars LE I think has the highest ceiling thus far. you put money in any of those games you're going to win Medieval Madness the reason why in my opinion is that it's always number one right people love the charts people who have no idea about pinball I don't like Medieval Madness nearly as much as Attack from Mars but that game because of it being number one will always carry that stigma yeah so true CGC you're right CGC value wise is up but it's kind of with the times of everything else that's going up too and I think with Haggis coming in. I said it like a broken record before, listener, but if you're doing 2.0 code on Haggis thing,
    160:56
    CGC's well is going to dry up unless they start increasing some of the code aspects on those as well. You have a window of opportunity here for Cactus Canyon. I think they're just going to fill it out rather than really make it expansive, but the writing's on the wall. I heard they were going to really expand that code and that's maybe what's taking so long. I guess we'll see, but... They're going to fill it out. Just fill it out. We'll see. We'll see, but... I think it's going to be right. I think it's going to be on the same level as a Monster Bash or Attack from Mars. I don't think we're going to see anything 2021 dynamic like we do in Stern Games or Jersey Jack games. Guess what? It will sell out. Everything's selling out to the scene right now. It'll sell out. It'll sell out. And save a buck, save a two, save a friendship, or a troll, and deal with the weak. Bye, bye, bye!
    161:41
    You probably don't like the troll designation, do you? I don't know why. Do you not see yourself as a troll? A little troll-y. No, I mean, I think that people that are super sensitive like you that can't really take any kind of feedback, you label it as a troll, but I think you should look at it as a positive. Like I said, it's just giving you an insight into how to enhance things and make it better. But before you go into deals, I've got to tell you, market trends, no question, I'll tell you from experience, the Hobbit. Okay, market trend going up. I just sold this Hobbit, and I'm telling you, I had 10 people, no, not 10, maybe 6 people looking to buy it. I was selling it with the Elite Topper. Now, granted, Elite Topper is hard to find. And, yeah, I only like nice games. So my games are nice and clean. I sold it. I'll tell you what I sold it for. $10,007. Okay.
    162:29
    Which Hobbit used to be $6,000, $7,000. Now it has the Topper. I'll tell you, I had a guy offering me even more. And, you know, the way I play is if I agree to someone, that's it. You know, you get the game. Jack Hobbit is on fire. Okay. So if you have a Hobbit and you don't really care for it anymore, trying to put that thing up, listener, because it's a great market for it. We may hear about The Hobbit in our next section because I agree with you. And I've talked to these listeners about that in the past. J.J.P. title games that they're no longer making anymore, the collectability on those is going to – they're just going to hold value, especially something like The Hobbit and things like that. Deal of the Week this week is a Grand Prix on Pennside. Believe it or not, it's out of Springfield, Missouri, by JDawg2. It's not a looker. You're going to have to tinker on this thing. It's all there. Backglass is fading. Zach, why are you even making this a deal of the week? Because it's $900, and because trying to find anything, a pinball machine, under $1,000 at this point is ridiculous, much less one of the greatest EMs ever made. It's all there. Buy, buy, buy! $900? I spend more on my toppers. Please. I was going to say, you should get a topper.
    163:41
    It's cheaper than a topper, yeah. cheaper than a topper, and it's an actual pinball machine. That, I will say, was inducted into the Pinball Machine Hall of Fame by the Crystals this last year. I knew you'd love that, Brian. Blah, blah, blah. Everyone's like, let me go to sleep. Hold on a second. Guys, wake up. We'll talk more.
    164:00
    And he wanted to talk about the Hobbit. Let's do it right now. And deals of the... You've got to be shitting me.
    164:05
    Deals of the WTF this week is exactly that. It's the Hobbit. I got two indications of what the fuck is going on. One of them was here. Yeah. 10.8 with a sale pending price. What? For a Hobbit? Jack. In three hours. Three going on. It was crazy. I believe it. It's nuts. I believe it. But rewind. Rewind one year ago when they were in the upper sixes. I know. A $4,000 increase in a year?
    164:38
    Wow. It's bonkers. Wow. Right now, there's a Smaug edition online on Pinside by Harry Worm. It always grosses me out, that name, Harry Worm. But Harry Worm's trying to sell one for $11,000. No topper. That, I'm sorry. That's a what the fuck? No, no. Do not spend $11,000 on a Hobbit. No, no. What's great, though, about his ad, because I think I know what you're talking about. In his ad, I think he said something like, hey, guys, I don't really know what the market's like. Yeah. Just let me know. He goes, wow, what a move. You're like, look, this might be really overpriced. So it is. He's letting me know. Yeah, pretty ballsy. I like that.
    165:21
    I think the value of yours selling so high, honestly, was probably because people are spending upwards of a little over $1,000 for that Elite Topper now that they're done making that series. So that helped. That did help. I got one in on trade, and I went to resell the Hobbit. Kept the Elite. topper. I just did because I keep my toppers. I keep them. Oh, ladies and gentlemen, I'm tired. Brian has wore my ass out. I want to be done with this. So that was your pinball. I'm tired trends.
    165:54
    Nobody wears me out like you, man. Nobody wears me out. But Dennis doesn't even wear me out like you. Well, you know, it's, it's, it's good discussion. Um, you know, it's been, it's been a fun time. It's been a fun time. Hopefully, uh, some learning experiences for yourself, but, uh, I still don't think I liked you, but it was fun. It was fun. It was fun, man. Gosh, if I do get over to some of these shows, uh, you know, things coming back to normal, which is, Hey man, great to see you. Hopefully you stayed healthy, uh, and your family as well um but i'm just glad to see things coming coming back to yeah absolutely and i and i want the i want the best for you but i do go back to a quote that i gave you that was so snarky back on pinside in 2020 i said quote what do you get when you mix a broken record a crying baby and a couple canada tears dealt hope you stub your toe today buddy Oh, that's right. You did say that. That was when you called me a snowflake. Yeah, yeah. That was fine, though, Zach. I did want you to stub your toe that day. Not like I didn't want you to really harm yourself, but I wanted you to feel pain. And there's nothing like the pain of a stubbed toe. I remember people were like, wow, Zach, that's really a dick move. I know, after all the shit you said. well because I never I and you'll know this for sure and just a reminder I never wish you like harm I mean I never saw like that I've always yeah so people are like wow uh Jack you're a dick and I was like that was kind of a jerky move but hey man that's uh like I said if I'm if I'm at these shows and we're there I'll definitely uh get you a beer and talk to you in person too but I would love nothing more than that I love arguing with people uh and especially you so this has been fun it's healthy it only betters this industry that's the thing I'm somebody that questions. I will always question. It's always in the spirit to make things better. I don't know why people, you know, like yourself. That's what abusers say. Honey, I'm just trying to make you stronger. The abuse of dad. That is a ridiculous comparison. No, I'm not saying you are. I'm saying that's what they do. That's what they do. Interesting, that's all. Remember we talked about correlations. If you guys want to get a hold of me, it's at the pinballnetwork at gmail.com. If you have any messages for Brian here. You can always message him on Pinside, Delt31.
    168:25
    We always have fun sidebar conversations there. Brian, hang around for five seconds while I do a plug for Flippin' Out Pinball where Brian would love to buy his pinball machines. Buy, buy, buy!
    168:39
    If he's wanting to get a hold of the product showcase, he would be buying these Fern Game Room Fatigue Mat. Do you have those yet? I don't. we actually just got a new carpet in here, so it's been nice on the feet, so I don't use those mats. But I hear they're good, though. Yeah, if you have any of the hardwood floor or anything like that, we just got them in stock. We also have all the other, your main titles are in stock. If not, we'll get you on the list for all those banners, side art. I'm an accessories guy, too. So hit us up for any of that arcade stuff as well. Straight down the middle, video series on YouTube. I think Greg is going to be doing a board game of Monopoly Jurassic Park here soon. Stick around for that. That was a lot of fun. And last week on TPN, we had just another pinball podcast catching up with Joel's review on Led Zeppelin, as well as a pinball show interviewing, as we alerted to before, with the mechanical engineering of John Rothermel for CERN Pinball. This week on TPN, final round pinball podcast. No telling who they're going to have. And a possible TPS midweek show.
    169:41
    Man, I'm going to have to go take a shower after this episode dealing with you. Hey, man, good times. It's been great, buddy. I do respect the hell and appreciate you putting up with me. And I know you feel the same way about me, you, because this isn't a one-sided thing. And I'm hard to deal with, and you're equally as hard to deal with as well. But we both have fun. We both love pinball. And we have more in common when it comes to themes and games that we enjoy than most adversaries out there. So, you know, for that, I appreciate you, and I appreciate the time you took today. Yeah, man, agreed. and hopefully it was entertaining for the listeners because I know someone listens to podcasts, you're outside walking the dog, doing something just monotonous, and it's nice to listen in. So hopefully folks find it entertaining, and I appreciate you all for coming on, and good shot. This episode title needs to be A Show Limits Girl. It's like a marriage, you know. For Jelt 31, I'm Zach Minney. Always practice face pinball. I miss dint in at this point, fuck. So long, everybody.
    170:45
    There's nothing getting in my way And if you knock knock me over I will get back up again So if something's a little wrong Well you can go ahead and bring it on And if you knock knock me over I will get back up again Oh oh oh oh oh oh Get back up again Oh oh oh oh oh oh I'm marching along, I've got to put in I'm cooler than a pack of peppermint And I haven't been this excited since I can't remember when I'm off from this remarkable adventure Just riding on a rainbow What if it's all a big mistake? What if it's more than I can take? No, I can't keep that place I know that I'm really, really, really gonna be okay You knock knock me over, you knock knock me over, I will get back up again!