Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 26: We Upgraded!

The Pinball Network·video·1h 14m·analyzed·Nov 17, 2022

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Triple Drain Ep26: Carl D'Angelo guests as Carl discusses tournaments, game mechanics, Pro/Premium comparisons.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 26 features hosts Joel and Tom welcoming Carl D'Angelo as a guest to replace the absent Travis Murie. The trio discusses recent tournament performances, compares Pro vs. Premium versions of modern Stern games (particularly Godzilla, Iron Maiden, and Rush), explores the balance between theme and mechanics in game design, and share experiences playing games at a local arcade bar. Key topics include tournament competitiveness, flipper skills vs. rule knowledge, and the importance of recovery shots in professional play.

Key Claims

Carl D'Angelo had a strong October with good tournament placements and won the King of the Hill overall at Super Series
high confidence · Joel acknowledges Carl's tournament success, Carl confirms 'I had a good October I at Super serious I didn't win any of the tournaments specifically but yeah King the overall was fantastic'
Recovery skills and adjustment ability are more important than raw rule knowledge in competitive tournament play
high confidence · Carl states 'rule knowledge will get you the points faster but if you don't have the flipper skills or the recovery skills you could know the rules... but you don't last as long'
Godzilla (Stern) is the current #1 ranked game on Pinside
high confidence · Joel asks 'do you feel it deserves the number one spot on pinside' and Carl responds 'I think it does deserve the number one spot'
Keith Elwin (designer) has indicated there is more content coming to Godzilla in future code updates
high confidence · Tom states 'Keith has alluded to unlocking or there's more coming to the game which is absolutely insane'
Theme is more important than mechanics for initial game sales, but mechanics are critical for long-term sales
high confidence · Carl explains 'for initial sales theme is more important yes by far... but for the long-term sales it needs the Max'
Elwin's Bond is designed as a single-level game with early code and an odd job hat dropping mechanism
medium confidence · Joel references 'elwyn's bond has been said that it's a single level game... the odd job hat is what they announced'
Rush (Stern) Premium version has additional mechs (ramp and dead end shot) that improve gameplay over the Pro version
medium confidence · Joel notes 'when I watched The Rush reveal I thought Pro those Pros the way to go... but now that I've played both um I definitely feel the added mechs really make that game better'
Toy Story has a super loops shot requirement that forces players to either hit three in a row or hit it 14 times to reach wizard mode

Notable Quotes

“recovery skills are almost more important than rule knowledge rule knowledge will get you the points faster but if you don't have the flipper skills or the recovery skills you could know the rules you know where to get the points but you don't last as long”
Carl D'Angelo@ 5:27 — Core insight into competitive pinball skill hierarchy; emphasizes practical execution over theoretical knowledge
“for initial sales theme is more important yes by far... but for the long-term sales it needs the Max and you know it needs those unique moments in pinball”
Carl D'Angelo@ 15:03 — Clarifies the mechanics vs. theme debate; theme drives initial purchase but mechanics drive long-term satisfaction and retention
“what caught me off guard on Godzilla was the bridge I really didn't think you know when we saw the announcement I didn't think much of the bridge... but the way it's integrated and the way you know when you destroy the bridge... it makes that makes so worth it”
Carl D'Angelo@ 15:10 — Demonstrates how execution and integration of mechanics matters more than the mechanic itself; even simple features can be transformative
“I think it does deserve the number one spot it's it's an incredible game... it strikes that perfect balance of being good for casual players good for basically any skill level there's enough to do on the surface but there's a massive amount just beneath that”
Carl D'Angelo@ 12:54 — Validates Godzilla's top Pinside ranking and identifies why it appeals to both casual and expert players
“when you shoot a ramp and you're expecting the ball to come back and it doesn't because it diverted some diverted to somewhere else that's pretty sick the ramp lifting up it's just those those when the game changes when the geometry of the game changes for a particular shot”

Entities

Travis MuriepersonTom GraffpersonJoelpersonCarl D'Angeloperson Keith ElwinpersonAbraham ToprakpersonSteve BowdenpersonEric Stoneperson

Signals

?
competitive_signal: Discussion of how tournament competitiveness has shifted from pure rule knowledge to emphasizing recovery and adjustment skills; suggests players are now more evenly matched in fundamentals
high · Carl D'Angelo's assertion that 'recovery skills are almost more important than rule knowledge' and discussion of how top players have similar physical abilities but differ in adaptability
?
design_philosophy: Keith Elwin's approach to integrating multiple mechs seamlessly; emphasis on quality execution over quantity; mechanic animations and context-appropriate use valued highly
high · Discussion of Godzilla's bridge mechanic having minimal visual impact until integration with collapse animation; Big Lebowski's extensive mech package praised for seamless integration
?
product_strategy: Clear market segmentation: Pro versions provide strong casual appeal and competitive viability; Premium versions add mechs that enhance long-term engagement and tournament preference
high · Multiple games discussed (Godzilla, Iron Maiden, Rush, Jurassic Park, Avengers) where Premium versions preferred in tournament but Pro versions fully functional; pricing reflects this differentiation
~
sentiment_shift: Pushback against recent podcast discussion (presumably Travis) downplaying mech importance; community sentiment shifting back toward valuing integrated, quality mechanics highly
medium · Joel states 'I actually had a few people reach out to me and email us kind of complaining about that that they're like they don't want to under value mechs' and confirms agreement after Godzilla ownership
?

Topics

Tournament competitiveness and skill developmentprimaryRecovery skills vs. rule knowledge in competitive playprimaryPro vs. Premium game versions and mechanic importanceprimaryGodzilla (Stern) design and rankingprimaryTheme vs. mechanics in game design and salesprimaryKeith Elwin's game design philosophysecondaryCode updates and game stabilitysecondaryCasual vs. expert player engagementsecondary

Sentiment

positive(0.78)— Hosts are enthusiastic about game designs, particularly Godzilla and Keith Elwin's work. Friendly banter about Carl replacing Travis. Some frustration noted with Toy Story super loops difficulty and Big Lebowski crashes, but overall tone is celebratory of strong game design and community engagement.

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast all right here we go again Tom are you ready yep good Travis Travis you ready I gotta get my beer ready all right I'm ready all right thank God here we go wonderful wonderful Tom you look great man thanks you look better now you look glowing I know last time recorded with your haircut oh yeah if only the V oh if only the listeners could see what I get to see you know and I know last time we recorded we had you had just come off of Expo and I know you're pretty drained from streaming that before that you had Super Series so I just feel like maybe you finally had some time to be a little more rejuvenated and and just alive and you look great thanks I'm I'm a little more alert yeah Travis just he just seems kind of not I'm surprised he hasn't interrupted us yet I mean what's going on man I wasn't listening I was getting my beer ready okay so of course yeah focusing on on the beer consumption yeah I mean do you wanna you wanna like participate sometime today that's true that's true drinking my beer I was like you talk okay well you just focus on that then and we'll just try to do what we do best you know Tom so I I don't know what there's not a ton of news there's not a ton of stuff to get into but um I mean let's start well okay so one thing I I want to discuss actually is um I actually had a chance to play a few games that I haven't played recently there's a there's a bar there's Rec bar it's a it's an arcade bar and I'm Travis are you are you fine if we talk about this okay yeah let's let's just settle let me get another beer Joel go ahead another beer okay we're we're two minutes into this podcast and you're already on your second beer all right we're letting cat out of the back Travis isn't here Travis isn't here today but all the listeners for the last two minutes I think probably believed it I think I think it's very clear Tom you let us know you do you agree with me that Travis is I mean he really he needs a little liquid courage to get through these podcasts recently he actually just passed out oh okay we need to do the podcast without him well the weird thing is I we've tried to record triple dream before with just two people and there was one time Tom that you had to sit out and it just didn't feel right and so triple drain needs three people so when we learned that Travis couldn't record tonight the reason Travis couldn't record tonight is because one of his 18 kids is having a birthday and then and then he has free play Florida coming up and Thanksgiving next week and we didn't want to put this off for like three four weeks we're like let's just go and record a podcast so Tom and I put our heads together and we're like if we have a chance to I don't know if the word replaces the right word but I think upgrade if we have a chance to upgrade definitely an upgrade definitely an upgrade so what does Travis bring to the table it's not much but what he does bring to the table he's I mean he's a solid content Creator and he's a solid tournament player so the goal was let's find a better content creator and a better tournament player and I don't know about you but Carl D'Python Anghelo was first guy I thought of so Carl Carl thank you very much for being on here tonight thanks Joel thanks Tom thanks thanks for the intro that was great yep I will tell you your name has come up multiple times in the last few episodes because um you keep winning everything so or doing very well you've placed very well your tournament play in the last few weeks has been outstanding so well done thank you yeah I had a good October I at Super serious I didn't win any of the tournaments specifically but yeah King the overall was fantastic overall was great and and over the course of October Tom how many times have you retired from pinball like 10 10 okay so maybe maybe Carl you're you're sucking some of the Mojo from you know I Know Travis I don't know how please Travis he said he was he played well enough that Monica I think was proud of him I think I don't know so but well done Carl I will I will say somebody I mean I'm not there with you I'm not there watching you um in person play these tournaments but but I will say I was checking in on you know I like checking out on people that I know and obviously I know you are also like seeing you over the course of Super Series it's like dang Carl is he's got this consistency thing figured out um so gotta try and take the kids down I don't know what else to say yeah last episode we brought that up that Travis is basically saying that that um I don't how do you how do you compete like what is your I don't know when you go into um Travis was basically saying something along the lines of like flipper skills are somewhat even at this point like like I don't know a lot of these top high-end players they all have the same physical abilities or similar physical abilities but it really comes down to like rule knowledge and knowledge of the game I mean what do you feel do you agree with that statement or what are your thoughts on the the current younger group of tournament Players doing so well some of that some of that um but at the same time a lot of it does have the does come down to flipper skills and Recovery skills especially I think recovery skills are almost more important than rule knowledge rule knowledge will get you the points faster but if you don't have the flipper skills or the recovery skills you could you know you could know the rules you know where to get the points but you don't last as long as someone that can that does have those skills yeah that makes sense so you're okay so it may not be so important that you hit the shot the first time you take it it's more important that you can recover if you miss the shot I think yeah yeah I think it's a lot of that it's a weird analogy but I I remember um a co-worker of mine's really good at bowling and he said the key to bowling is not getting the strike it's always picking up the spare so if you don't if you don't hit it perfect on the first shot being able to collect yourself and then hit it the second time or recover you know and and then pick up the spare so interesting I don't I mean Tom being that you're you know you've come out of retirement again for pinball um what do you have any anything learn not to watch you Jules that is that is the key um Carl I'm assuming you've you've seen the Abe flip video I saw the eight flip video yeah of course yeah so I I don't really know what to say other than thank you Abraham for doing that he um he sent that to me privately and he just said hey I've been watching your streams he's over I think in like Germany and so he watches them after the fact and he he's like hey I saw you were draining in a very consistent manner last stream and I just wanted to show you this and here's some suggestions on things you could do differently I thought it was funny I thought it was a funny video I sent it to Tom and Travis Travis ate it up and and so and I was like all right Tom Tom does all of her social media and I was like go ahead and post it you know people get a kick out of that uh then our good friend Steven Bowden put you know reposted on fun with bonus which I think every pinball Enthusiast is is a fan of and then Abe made it public on his thing and I think last time I checked like 600 something people have watched it and I don't know are enjoying the misery of me draining over and over again but but it's not the misery though it's it's a it's a learning experience right it was it absolutely was and I will tell you everything is have you learned anything from it I have what I did learn is the very first game I played of Deadpool again I drained in the exact same way and it's like wow that is clearly a habit like it is clearly a habit that if I'm not thinking if I'm not if I'm not aware that oh I just hit the Wolverine shot that's coming around the left side like I need to actually try to do something different and that's where I was actually trying to do like a live catch or depend depending on the speed try to let it dead bounce over to see what that does just trying different things trying to find what works um and things got better things got better once I once I start to adjust but that's something I mean as you guys are both tournament Players I feel like Carl you were kind of hinting at that like it's the adjustments and learning from your mistakes I feel like that is what at least in the tiny bit of tournament play I have I feel like that's really what sets some of you guys apart because it doesn't matter how good you are at the game at your house or at the bar you play the game's gonna play totally different at whatever tournament you're playing at so learning that game learning how to adjust to its uniqueness I don't know I mean exactly you'll you'll hear a lot of players say they play worse on a game that they own in a tournament because they you know they're used to their game they're used to their shots and when they they have a hard time adjusting and that's where those recovery skills are you know being able to adjust quickly makes a huge difference so how do you feel about you know our good friend Tom over here who has a home field advantage at District 82 you know that lives and breathes these machines you know he's got all this time to learn all the ins and outs and then Mr IE pinball play in California and picks it up no problem I mean it's those get shuffled around like I watched a video of Eric you know moving things around for the tournaments this this uh with the winter tournaments coming out so so the games change over time nothing's the same you know month after month okay well very cool we're very cool well um tournament stuff I know um well Expo you did well in Expo as well Carl so well done there and then free play Florida's coming up I Know Travis is going to that Tom are you going to that yes yep and then Carl are you making that Trek I am not I had it planned but I canceled it after going to Chicago gotcha so Travis you have a chance you have a chance to do better this this weekend is what it sounds like so thank you sounds like it's going to be a bloodbath if we play Florida there are a lot of good people gonna be showing up there I'm assuming Eric will play Eric Stone oh yeah yes yes yeah yeah that'll be good is Ray day going yep yeah nice and I'm assuming Neil you take a Neil with you Tom yeah Neil's getting a break from school there we go November may be your month Tom this may be you know you may become you may come back stronger than ever you never know you never know well okay so go ahead I was gonna say at least you get the focus just on the tournament this time and I have to stream streaming that's true so that's another thing I mean we'll probably plug it a little a little later but Carl you do in disk and you do it incredibly well um you typically don't play though in in disc right I mean you focus entirely on streaming right typically I'm gonna try and play in one or two of the events this year just okay just because the the new WAP rules are just so insane I can't even remember what indisk is going to be but it's going to be in the stratosphere and basically if I don't play in that I may not have a chance in States that's how many points that's going to be worth tgp yeah yeah I have no idea to be honest yeah I just I I sent it over to Josh and he goes you know he tells me what it's worth yeah okay yeah well I hope you can because at least from afar watching it it seems like one of the best if not maybe one of the like the best tournament that I've seen so I feel bad if you can't participate in it that's one thing I mean props to Tom for always participating in the Super Series stuff but I mean I know it wears them out between the streaming and the TV and the playing but yeah you know I hope you get an opportunity to play as well Carl crossing my fingers this time yeah all right well um yes stuff I did want to talk about so um thing number one Godzilla I finally got it my Godzilla premium is here and I will tell you I know the two of you guys both have one um it is insane it is so freaking good um so question number one Carl what is it like every time you reset Godzilla and hear the machine call your name I I love it but it's embarrassing at the same time right it is it's a you know keeps making fun of me Keith and all the team uh for every reset I do absolutely but but it's fantastic it really is I the first time I heard that it was that was awesome that's that's a that's a game designer using their power to the greater good you know I just think it's it's hilarious to hear but I know both of you I mean Carl you've blown it up I I think I think there was a time that I was borrowing um from flipping out I was borrowing a pro and um at the same time you had either an Ellie or premium I don't remember and it's like there were people watching you stream it and blowing it up for whatever 10 plus billion and then rolling over to mine I'm cracking you know 500 million and feeling good about it but um I don't any thoughts on that like overall thoughts on Godzilla I mean what comes to mind when the two of you guys play this game do you feel it's Keith's best do you feel I don't know do you feel it deserves the number one spot on pinside I I think it does deserve the number one spot it's it's it it strikes that perfect balance of being good for casual players good for good for basically any skill level there's enough to do on the surface but there's a massive amount just beneath that for for the players like myself that you know really want to dive in to the deeper strategies yeah and you're talking City combos you're talking about the Imposter shot you're talking about the secret combos the stack like I don't know it's there's what I thought I knew Godzilla and now that I have it I'm realizing like holy crap there is so much more here that I need to learn exactly you can keep going in that list it just keeps on rolling over and over Tom how are you feeling about it you've had it a while now it's awesome yeah it's it's an incredible game for sure I'm very excited to have it I'm I'm very excited to dive in and I know there's more coming that's what's crazy is Keith has alluded to unlocking or there's more coming to the game which is absolutely insane um so overall anybody that's listening to this what I what I think is cool is this is the first game that I've borrowed the pro and to be honest I completely fell in love with it I loved the pro and it had no Max it had no Max but the game still shot so well the code just kept drawing me back the audio package visual everything and so I felt it was worth owning the game again but not only that upgrading and and the upgrade was for all the mechs and I know last last episode we kind of talked about this and Carl I'm curious about your opinion because Travis was really harping on the fact that he feels that mechs aren't what cell games it's theme that sells games and I actually had a few people reach out to me and email us kind of complaining about that that they're like they don't want to under value mechs like mechs are still really important and I will say now that I have Godzilla and I feel like this premium just added three insane Max between the building the bridge and the rotating Mechagodzilla I'm really feeling that like the like I agree that I think the mechs are super important I don't know I mean Carl do you heard that discussion were you agreeing were you disagreeing I mean what are your thoughts on kind of the importance of mechs in modern pins I mean I think for initial sales theme is more important yes by far you know initial sales that first month the game can get by completely on theme but for the long-term sales it needs the Max and you know it needs those unique moments in pinball what caught me off guard on Godzilla was the bridge I really didn't think you know when we saw the announcement I didn't think much of the bridge you know it's just this you know a little thing that you know drops the ball but the way it's integrated and the way it you know when you destroy the bridge and it's it there's a whole um you know multi-second animation where it slowly collapses just it makes that makes so worth it yeah whereas I thought it was just going to be a throwaway Mech to be honest which is hilarious that a game could have a throwaway Mech I mean I think there are certain games some Modern games these days only have one Mech and to have the the Magna grab shot which is such a unique shot and then the building is insane but then I it's like each I feel like the building that could have been it and people would have been happy I think the Mecca Godzilla rotisserie thing could have been it and that could people could have been happy so how Keith found a way with the bomb the bill of materials that he had that he could build in all these mechs and still produce an incredible game that doesn't seem over cluttered I don't I don't I don't know I mean um I don't know I mean Tom do you like you've played you played the pro Godzilla Latin tournament and then you compare that to your Ellie at home like do you have a preference do you feel that one does it better better than other I mean what's your uh I I actually think the Le's a little easier to play um but uh just just the size of the spinner on the right hand side uh for Mecca Godzilla but um I I like both versions of the game like if I if I just had a pro I'd be extremely happy with just having a pro yeah yeah well we brought up this conversation or the idea of Max because the rumored next Pulp Fiction is supposed to be a single lover level game obviously elwyn's bond has been said that it's a single level game um TNA just came out at almost a ten thousand dollar price point single level single level game do you feel like Carl as a as a pinball buyer and player does that when you hear at single level does that slow you down at all disappoint you at all or I mean I don't know what are you because you assume it's has less right it has less than a than another game well it has less vertical happening you know less less verticality or whatever you want to call that um it's just missing a couple ramps right I mean it's just plastic ramps or middle rants two different shots it's it's not that big a deal to me it really comes down to layout shots and rules for for single level games okay and you can still have toys in them yeah you know like we heard uh elwin's is supposed to have a spinning disc in there right uh the odd job hat is what they announced but and a lot of drop targets everywhere yep I don't know much else besides that yep I'm I'm with you I think it's just um I don't know I maybe it's Bond I don't Carl you you had a chance to play bonded Expo I assume yeah yeah and we talked about it last episode Travis's summary was basically the left side was the right side was pretty cool I mean he was I don't know Tom did I summarize that well is that similar to how you felt I don't um yeah pretty well for me yes yeah yeah Carl what did you take a bonds layout yeah yeah I wouldn't agree mostly with the assessment uh you know that's a game again that the code is so early that you really have to you have to judge that game right now on the shots alone you know nothing else um I I look back to stranger things and when stranger things came out the code was just so Bare Bones it just wasn't fun to play yeah and I think bond is actually a little bit ahead of that but it you can still tell it's it's lagging stuff but I it has potential well I remember we talked about Bond last episode and that kind of started the conversation of Mech so the importance of mix because Travis was basically saying after playing the premium bond in the Pro Bond he was he was all he thought the pro Bond was better he's like the bond on a wand didn't really see the appeal to it the diverter or that lock the rocket lock he's like didn't really see in the underwater so it's like to him that was an instance where throwing in additional mechs didn't really necessarily make a better game that was his thought while something like Godzilla seems totally different the additional mechs take a great game and make it even better and um I think there's a lot when you look at a bunch of the the James Rees even like rush you know I will say when I watched The Rush reveal I thought Pro those Pros the way to go those that ramp and that that the the dead end shot like I didn't see those as very important but now that I've played both um I definitely feel the added mechs really make that game better I don't I I know Tom I mean Tom's all the time I'm like lays on his Le almost every night and yeah and wax it I don't know Carl do you have a preference on Rush I would love I would love to hear you say you hate it just to see I just bought one it's sitting I haven't even turn it on yet it's sitting downstairs I need to it's it's on the list to play um so no I don't have a preference between the pro or the premium I haven't played enough of the game yet okay so to get a good sense of it um I think you will like it is my that's my guess based off of the the logic that Ray and Timmy built into that game I think you're gonna eat it up especially Carl if you need it there's a ray day did a uh babies first babies I watched it I like that it did it it was good it was a good it was a good primer I got a primer on the game before going to Expo because I I knew it was going to be in the certain pro circuit and an expo and I wanted to make sure that I knew at least a you know had a base level of knowledge and you got to the wizard mode the first time and I did get to the whiskey yeah for the first game my host scanned in so you got all the achievements she was happy I was happy that was a good time well done awesome um speaking of getting to the wizard mode so we're gonna hit we're gonna hit on well we'll just go into it so um I I was serious I actually my wife and I we kind of had a vacation away from the kids over the weekend and she she was we did a whole bunch of different activities went to Mammoth Cave which is insane if anybody's in Kentucky that cave is Mammoth it's huge it's insane it's so cool we did a bunch of cool stuff but Sunday night we had nothing to do and there's a bar I think it's called wreck bar um and it's and they had like 70 or 80 pins it was awesome and went in there and spent some time um my wife had a few drinks so she was actually interested in playing pinball and um it was cool we walked into the pinball room and the game she walked right up to the very first game she walked up to was Toy Story she saw Toy Story she's like oh Toy Story we go up we put in two players hit start and she goes did you ever have this one I was like yes this was in our basement for over a month you know like That's how little she cares about pinball um here at home but um I know when Zach and I streamed it he literally got to the wizard mode the night we streamed it now to be fair he had already had it for like a week or two it took me the whole time that probably three weeks I had it to finally get to the wizard mode Carl I know it was a struggle but I know you finally got to the wizard mode it's the super Loops that's what you know it's just a super Loop so we talked about this and this is what I will tell you so super Loops it's one of the seven things you have to qualify to get to a wizard mode you either hit three in a row or you have to hit it what it's like 14 times after you qualify super Lubes yeah right yeah yeah so it's it is a huge pain in the butt and on the one I had I could not do three in a row Carl the one you owned could you do three in a row I could not no sir everybody listening right that Ray day Mr rayday listening Carl D'Python Anghelo on his could not do three in a row because that's what everybody in TP is giving me a hard time just hit three in a row peace what I will say is I went right up to the one in Rec bar that was my only goal I was like I want to see if I can get three in a row the very first ball three in a row boom boom boom so it's possible I think it's it's possible but I don't know Carl you're one to Tinker with your games I have no idea why the geometry on one would make it so much easier than another if I had it longer I would have thrown apart the ramp you know in the back because you know that that back shock is kind of shared yeah so the the loop has a little jump on it I assume it was just something there right around the jump area I don't know but it boy did it piss me off it really did but we had a good time on that I mean my wife I it's a great theme She was drawn to a good light show but did she asked when you're buying it then or no no sorry not like Travis and Monica who still owned one but all I had to do was show her the Duke Kaboom ramp and that was what she was going for that was the toy that that Drew her in and we played one or two games until she finally hit it um but what was cool is when she went to I forget she went to like buy another drink right next to it was an Iron Man premium and this is what kind of sparked my thought of this this idea of a game with or without Max I've played Iron Man or sorry not Iron Man Iron Maiden I've played Iron Man Iron Maiden Pro many times and had a good time like it's a good shooter feels good I'd never had a chance to play the premium and now that I have I really like the premium like that sarcophagus lock I I don't know maybe I'm just a sucker for diverters you know when you shoot a ramp and you're expecting the ball to come back and it doesn't because it diverted some diverted to somewhere else that's pretty sick the ramp lifting up it's just those those when the game changes when the geometry of the game changes for a particular shot I don't know it just it stood out to me where I was like okay well done Keith like I I don't do you guys have a preference when it comes to Iron Maiden Pro vs premium not really I I mean I own the pro so I'm completely fine with playing a pro yeah I had the pro for a while I'm trying to get a premium so there you go I'll take the premium uh it I find the premium a little more difficult right because the like the two rewards you know are on the left ramp instead of the the right orbit yeah yeah and it makes me wonder so that's that's a Keith game that the print I mean I'm liking the premium of Godzilla I think I'm preferring the premium on Iron Maiden um I like the premium um on Jurassic Park just because I'm a sucker for that T-Rex but I do know some people complain about that that they feel like the mouth kind of rejects um but and then the Raptor pits kind of take it or leave it I don't know if you guys have a preference when it comes to that or other I'd rather I'd rather Player Premium in a uh in a tournament why just because you can lock the ball easier in the Raptor pit in the Raptor pit oh you can like backhand it into it yeah okay yeah and then you get the additional 2x also it's easier to see that you've got the 2x during that Raptor multiball when you lock the ball behind there the pro just you can still get it but it it doesn't hold the ball right it's like like the Metallica snake you know it holds down there right and I know but Avengers Avengers is a game that I borrowed for from flipping out and had a pro and I had a great time on it but that's another one where I think the premium because of the the lock the disc that raises up instead of having to fit hit the what is it like The Fat Boy ramp in the back to start the mode you just have to kind of drop it in so I like that because I could be a little more strategic on when I want to hit the ramp while I think the spinning disc sometimes you the ball just falls into it I mean it's big gaping hole in the middle of the Playfield so sometimes you might start a gym before you want to do you feel like like that's a game another L1 game where the mechs help or hurt it with the pro vs premium on Avengers you still have yours Tom right I can see in the background I have my le yup yup I don't know you I mean pin Slash did you feel that there was an advantage with the pro vs premium on that Carl makes you turn off that stuff exactly yeah okay I had I had to make them you know as close as possible so yeah okay all right well no I I don't know I still don't know I I think the more that I've talked about the thought I'm still team Mech give me the mechs um I want the mechs everybody wants if they're gonna pay the money they want to have Max that ooh and all them but at the same time yeah we we all do agree it's not the max to sell the game it's the theme and then yeah but what's holding on Godzilla was not the theme it was the max in the code and the shots and all the other stuff so well cool um other games that I played my wife was really drawn to Big Lebowski she's not a Big Lebowski fan I think she's seen it one time in her life but the world under glass that Big Lebowski has to offer is insane I mean there's so many mechs in that game it took me multiple games to show her all the mechs in the game between the bowling alley down below watching the rug move back getting the car to swing out on the upper Playfield to bash that I there's a lot in that game have either of you spent any considerable time on Big Lebowski like no two or two or three games yeah yeah that shows I I would love to see more because apparently they just released a bigger code update unfortunately though my Big Lebowski experience my wife was like this game's awesome like she's like look at these things and look at this like she was just blown away with with the max she was born in the theme integration of the game unfortunately we played probably three games on it and two of those it crashed like straight up two player games put two dollars in two player games middle of the ball game like there was one point where I drained it didn't know I drained I I'm like I'm seeing it in the trough I shook it to see if it wasn't settled correctly tilted out and then it was stuck and just tilt and a tilt animation we got the tech and the guy comes over and and I was like yeah I explained he goes nah this is just some stupid Dutch people that don't know how to make a good game that was the text response literally turned off the game turned it back on opened the coin door and gave us two credits and walked away I was like wow okay tell me how you really feel kind of thing and then we start our next game and it was a similar thing where we're up top and my flippers just died like this flippers just died you sure you weren't playing Halloween okay Carl's I don't know me all right no but there was no Halloween day I watched the stone videos okay yeah oh I know Eric's response to Halloween I I wish there would have been a Halloween there I'm still I I still get people telling me how great Halloween is I know Tim Lee with poor man reached out to me and he said Halloween is probably his most played game in his house right now obviously he threw a big Halloween party but he's like to novice players it's an incredible theme the atmosphere is really cool there's great mechs in it like they were just drawn to it Tim also told me like GNR gets a ton of plays at his house and stranger things so those are the games that really draw him in but it goes back to theme doesn't it it's all themed but he said halloweeny's like the butt pretzel if you can if you can get up there like he feels the butt press was incredible so Carl you you I'm shaking my head yeah I know I completely disagree with that the geometry on the shot is just not right to me in my opinion I think Tim said something that he said some of the poor men are giving a hard time because he thinks it's one of the best shots in pinball is the butt pretzel you know um Weird Al has a very similar shot and Weird Al visited a lot better in my opinion yeah I really liked that game yeah it's a fun game it really is now you have do you still have the P3 or you were no no I I I yeah I I had it because I was fixing it for for Shane over at acekogi okay got it working and send it back over to him so I had it for a good two months I think played a good deal Weird Al what were your thoughts in like overall of I don't know like mechanically how are you enjoying the P3 or I mean there's a all the shots are in the back third does that wear on you after a while or I don't know uh the shots in the back there didn't wear on me that much and that surprised me it's something I didn't really think of um the game is fun I do enjoy the game I like the rules the animations I and is it a little too easy it's it's a little uneasy side but at the same time it's not so much like I I put it definitely more difficult than Toy Story oh yeah playing them around the same time so that's why I guess I I have that comparison in my head um I I'm I'm still I I hate saying it but I'm still not a fan of The Flipper Max on the P3 yeah and I don't like the button arrangement I um like I I want to be able to Stage I know I understand why they put the flippers on separate buttons to make it easier for new people to control them individually right when I was at Expo uh the gentleman who was there actually this was in the morning before it opened um he was there and I was talking to him and he asked me he goes do you want it the standard way or do you want it where just one button controls your your flippers and I said I'll take the one button you know so he went in there and changed it um so I don't know that might make it more enjoyable to you did that feel more natural right and you can do that but you can't still can't stage them then okay because there's not a double Leaf switch in there and so I I actually when I had the game here I took off the button boxes and I tried to add a double Leaf switch into it there's not enough physical space in there so you'd have to print up you know the 3D print a larger button box which puts it even further outside of the cabinet I don't know how natural that would feel yeah and I do remember that because I think it's five flippers like one of the flippers you had to flip but I that yeah yeah it's yeah what I found interesting is when I played one um recently at um what is it North End pub up in Lafayette that the the upper flippers I mean it amazes me with novice how upper flippers are invisible they have no concept that there's an upper Flipper on a game right but the P3 ones are even more hidden and if it's on a separate button there's no way like I don't know I just I don't know if that has to be a common problem for a novice to step up and literally have no idea that there's upper Footers unless it screams it at you somehow I I don't I don't know um did you was that ever something because visually people have complained about that like Carl you know the plastic kind of hides the upper flippers yeah that's just a feel thing that you learn after a while because there's no visual cue you can see where that flipper is uh look at the flipper rubber that's your visual cue you can kind of see that under the plastic but yeah totally they are hidden by the plastic so what was your thought then of the germs mode because that's something that I do think is really cool it's very unique obviously to the P3 to have the Wall come up and then you're hitting moving um Graphics you're not they're not physical things you're interacting with I mean is that was that a mode that you thought like this is cool like this is really neat or just kind of like I want to go back to physical pain I I enjoyed it it's a fun mode it's it's it's nice being able to hit things just in the middle of the Playfield yes absolutely at the same time blocking off the rest of the Playfield makes it I always wanted to just hurry up and get out of that mode oh okay it is definitely more deadly because it's yeah the ball's hitting a wall and coming right back at you yeah and after I figured out you know okay shoot from the right shoot to the left and just don't use the upper flipper let it come back down it's generally pretty safe at that point so once I figured out that trick it wasn't that big a deal to get through it so would you put a P3 game in in disk one of the main reasons I'm gonna say no is because you can trap a ball beneath the upper flipper okay and just hold it there and never let it go so during multiball you can skillfully get a ball behind either of those two uppers and never let them out so you would have to if you put that in a tournament you would probably print some part or something to put behind the flipper to keep you from being able to do that you'd have to do something yeah interesting I know the game can also detect that the ball is there so I don't know why they haven't programmed it to raise the flipper if a ball is trapped behind there the real question is would they put a Halloween well that's you know don't ask me that Jim loves Halloween okay okay so he's got one in his house I played it at his Halloween party because I want to see because he was he's talking all about it and I want to see okay maybe his place better than mine now sure same thing um but he loves it so I I so could it could at some point Jim loves his spooky games I mean you know like Halloween style spooky games I do remember uh Alice Cooper bayonet and right so yeah and that held up the whole time yeah pretty much yeah played well well pin Slash is your is your child uh Carl so you have control over the game so I'm assuming Toy Story is going to be yeah yeah Toy Story heads up Toy Story it's either Toy Story Halloween you gotta pick one yeah oh cool um other games that we played one thing I thought was funny um was well alien she saw alien she's like that looks awesome let's play that alien she was bored of it almost immediately um and it's just because you can tell that that game is super atmospheric like the lighting is really good but when you're in a bar you can't hear it and that that's a game that I I mean I walked away from that going I I would love to spend more time in this game but not in a bar like I feel like you gotta have that at home have either of you played Halloween at all to any extent I played it when it first came out um there was one in Madison and of course you know stuff wasn't working on it that was the highway version and then uh the last time I played I played a couple of games at Expo just kind of feeling it out I I thought it was okay you know I I'm it's not something I'd add to my collection yeah um I don't particularly like many wide body games I like a few of them but I think that's one thing that like hurts that game it's just oh yeah Carl have you spent time with alien at all I've spent a little bit of time on it uh more the highway version than the pinball Brothers version um I did stream the bit of the pinball Brothers but uh we kept having issues with the game it was right when that was released like one of the first ones to come out um but the game yeah like you said it's very atmospheric and you need to you know have the sound cranked up lights turned down even if it makes it a little hard to see things yeah um but the rules are great I think uh Joe Schober did a great job on the rules the layout has a couple issues to me like the upper right flipper I could never get the ball to feed to that flipper reliably you know because it comes off of the pop bumpers and it can go either to the right or the left yep all the copies I've played always go to the left they never feed to the right and that shot is so tight that I could never shoot the ramp to get the hyperspace multiple I think it's hyperspace right yeah I think so or hyper sleep yeah I I know what you're saying I don't think I I think I hit that shot maybe one time and um one thing that did feel weird the flippers felt odd my wife even she's like these flippers are super sensitive dude is it I mean The Flipper mix themselves is it different is it like opto versus Leaf switcher like something felt like you barely had to touch those flipper buttons and things were flipping was do you know Carl you probably know um I don't know what they use on the cabinet but inside the game they use micro switches for all the targets instead of using Leaf switches so they may have Micro switches on the cabinet buttons as well I'm not certain of that though yeah it felt weird but I don't know but overall I mean those were all games that I I mean I came away it was a great night but all all you know somewhat newer games that I had a chance to put more time on and um I definitely enjoyed it the last thing was Batman she saw Batman in The Dark Knight she was like well this looks pretty cool I was like well here just a sec and I I walked her over one more row and then showed her Batman 66 so I was like this is the upgrade and she goes really like she almost she preferred the look of the regular Dark Knight and I was like why she goes well it had like the Joker on it I was like so a Joker action figure that's all you need and she's like well when I think of Batman I think of the Joker and this one there isn't enough Joker I was like okay I mean that's just that was her opinion um which I thought was funny and then I also experienced um there was another place we're at earlier in the day and there was there was three pinball machines there was this kind of flea market and one of them was a Deadpool Le they had a Deadpool Le sitting there Deadpool Le Big Buck Hunter I thought of you Carl I always do when I see Big Buck Hunter I think of you and Nick Lane because I know look Lane with Buffalo loves loves that a Star Trek and that was it those are the three that that were there and what was funny to me was Deadpool somebody was playing it the entire time and it was normally like um I don't know somebody like kids like Deadpool they I get it I think Deadpool on location must Crush but um I went to I went to play and a dad walks up with his daughter and he's trying to explain to her pinball you know he doesn't know the turn you know the flappers and this and this he puts money in and he starts pounding this was the Star Trek starts slapping the action button he's like what's going on and I was like the start button's down here and I reach down and hit the start button for him and they drain one ball and he's like well that was fun I was like you have two more balls he's like oh okay and comes back up and and then one ball drained quick and he's like oh that was a fast one he starts to walk away I was like no ball state was on you know it's like the simple things that that we all take for granted like I don't know I almost feel bad for stern or jjp or any of these like how do you teach somebody where the start button is but I mean they already make it blink brightly you know but it's still I don't know I don't know how they do that so those were my overall pinball experiences over the weekend I do did you guys play happen to play anything recently that really stood out obviously these are all games that I've suggested no no nothing no nothing new all right well um we weren't gonna We the goal was like I said there wasn't a ton of news so there we decided I think it's time to do what some people feel is our best segment we rarely do it I think it's Travis's favorite segment so you'll probably be a little annoyed that that we're uh that were that were doing it but hey Travis do you wanna do you want to do this with us okay yeah let's let's just settle let me get another beer Joel go ahead okay okay we'll wait for you wait for you to get your beard we're gonna do um yeah we're gonna do a triple combo so uh here we go [Applause] I think I'll have the purple yeah [Music] all right well shout out to Jason and his wife once again for recording that for us but yes so triple combo it's um it's it's where we break down a game three ways so essentially a novice perspective or a novice way to play the game how to like complete the game kind of like a wizard mode and then how to address the game in a tournament and I know Tom you still own do you still own GNR I think it's the red game behind you right is that what I'm seeing all the way in the back no it's in the other room Jill no what's the red game way in the back that's X-Men it's red oh you have the Magneto one yeah oh okay all right uh Carl I'm not lying to you Joe I trust you Carl's background is like a forest scene so I mean that's really it's really nice Carl yeah um we are uh we break down the game three ways so I know Tom still owns the game and then Carl I know you stream the heck out of GNR I know you were testing pin monk had a bunch of flipper fans you were testing different stuff diverter fans all that thing so I know you've spent a ton of time on GNR so so I actually thought jnr would be a fun game to talk through um we've done a bunch of Sterns so time to give JJ Pizza love should be a good time so we're going to kind of tag team this um I'll go ahead and do the novice part so novice part would be just your average Joe stepping up to GNR what is it that they need to do to experience something fun in the game and in my opinion the goal is to get them into a song as quickly as possible um I will say though there are seven things they have to do to get into a song jjp was smart though because if you every time you drain a ball they give you it's like two or three of those things automatically if you haven't gotten to a song yet so the seven things are you have to collect the Seven band members the two keyboard shots are just right there kind of in the front front of the scoop Duff which is the base is up you got to go up the upper left and then kick a ball up up onto the base ramp Axel deals with the um the rollover Lanes in the back slash is the spinner with the top hat you have to do that a certain number of spins um Frank Frankie I think is the drummer that's all about pop bumper hits or you can hit the right ramp which is the drumstick ramp and then I forget the Rhythm guitarist's name but that's the kind of the middle spinner shot which to be honest was like one of my favorite shots I really enjoyed how that shot kind of squiggled back but if you hit those seven shots and and I will say they do a really good job communicating if you're in a track mode it actually flashes kind of the seven different zones so if you walk somebody up to it you can kind of let a track mode kind of tell you how to do that but that's how you collect all seven band members if you want to just show them because it's a fun shot and feels good you can show them how to hit the left ramp and then lock a ball into the guitar neck I mean that is oh it's kind of a satisfying cool shot but once you do that if you can help somebody through to get all seven band members then all they have to do is hit the center scoop once they're in the center scoop they can pick whatever song they want and just be ready to enjoy the light show because the song I mean they really do an exceptional job of the experience the Concert Experience um so if you can help somebody get into a song mode or coach them through that's how a novice player in my mind is going to enjoy that game now once I come out of this song um and it'll be a multiball when they get into the song so it'll it's that should be fun for them but it is it's not super approachable in my mind you know there there are plenty of other games that have very accessible cool features that are not far from the start button for novice to experience GNR there's a little bit of depth that you have to do to get to that song but I don't know do you guys agree with that do you do do you agree with from a novel am I missing something that a novice could could enjoy no no no you're right about there I'd say there are a few multiballs so I've explained this before that GNR it's kind of a two-stage thing you're either preparing for the song or you're in a song that's it preparing for a song or in a song so when you're preparing for a song There are four multi-balls that you can do that will help you build the value of your song so there's a chance that a novice May step up and just kind of mistakenly fall into a multiball that's very easy to do depending on what you hit in the game [Music] um but otherwise yeah that's the main goal just how do we collect all seven guys as quickly or members as quickly as possible get them into a song and then just have a great time so I think that's kind of it for the novice standpoint so let's dive into let's let's approach the actual game like if you want to see as much of the game as possible um I don't know maybe Tom do you want to start us with that like if you if your idea is like I want to see I want to see all the stuff that jjp's put in this game how how do you approach seeing the the breadth of the game if that makes sense uh well I mean you pretty much explained everything I was gonna explain Joel so okay so collect Seven band members got it right and I I think I think really important from like a tournament standpoint would be going for those four multi-balls uh before you go into a song and really really building those up not only that but collecting the uh the patches by spelling uh GNR um so the patches are on the back of the back um the uh the backboard uh on the LCD display and those patches can do a lot to give you certain Awards or uh uh like bonuses to yeah to build up so you know I I think that is uh a good strategy to do and then to um uh Carl could probably explain a lot better than I can yeah so Carl when you were like trying to see because there's what there's there's what is it four different albums so each album depending on what you do there's a mini wizard mode and then if you do all of them isn't there and there is there is an end wizard mode right it wasn't that was a goal of yours right yeah not in this lifetime that's right so when you were trying to do that what was your thought process because patches there are people that say ignore patches because grinding for patches is something that really started to wear me out on the game yeah because to collect the patches you have to spell GNR which is on the inlanes so the easiest way to do that is backhand the left ramp and then basically let it drain from the upper Playfield and just keeps moving around the letters and just keep doing that I don't know how what was your how did you attack patches or what patches were you focusing in on I mean it depends on again tournament or Wizard play so if we're talking tournaments still it's gonna be I want to know if I can backhand that ramp to get those patches all day and if I can I'm gonna go for the ones that give me the unlimited boosters you know the um the horn the amp the lights and the firecracker yeah those four let you play the booster multiballs as much as you want between songs so normally you can only play them once once you drain out you can't play it until you play a song and go on those four unlimited so at that point if I'm in a tournament I want those four patches and then I'll just be shooting the um get two lights you know two lanes lit GNR or or am and then get the last letter for amp and I'm into multiball again there's an alley pass over to amp and then you're 92 ball you're saying tournament Strat is don't even go into a song I because the songs aren't guaranteed points oh yeah because if you drain out it's all gone exactly exactly if you don't cash out or yeah exactly or or you miss the Applause jackpot you know those those precious 15 seconds or so to hit the scoop at the end you missed that you've lost your entire jackpot and you've gotten a couple hundred thousand probably so to explain people that don't know GNR so yes if you collect all seven band members she hit the center scoop boom you're in a song the whole the whole point of once you're in a song is different albums display have different colors on what shots you're supposed to hit and and once again the little Monitor and the back of the Playfield does a really good job telling you what to hit but once you're in the song you just have to hit those shots and it's a time it's not a number of shots thing it's a timed mode you are trying to get through the song and once you get towards the end of the song If you hit enough shots you'll get an encore otherwise you have an Applause jackpot which is like one last shot and boom you hit that and then you have an option you either keep playing or you cash well throughout the song there are times where you have to hit the scoop and you get the option you keep playing or you cash out I typically Cash Out Carl I don't know how I don't think Carl knows how to cash out on the game he will always push it but that's the whole point of the game is that risk reward constantly Do you want to build or go away and I would I just assumed in a tournament strategy that is even more worrisome because you're not getting anything you get no points if you drain before you cash out but you're saying the Strat is almost don't even go into a song just focus on the the build stage before exactly I would focus on the boosters and stand there I mean you'll get more points out of the songs but you won't have the guaranteed points that the boosters give you you can't go into the song and not necessarily finish it and just like you were saying Joel just cash out you know I'm at 10 million I could possibly get 40 million but depending on where all the other players are you might want to say well I'm going to cash out and go back into doing those booster multi balls yeah yeah and the key is amp never gets harder it's only three letters every time the other boosters take more shots to start but amp is always just the three letters so amp are those are the in-lane letters and you can move those with the flipper so that's where you're saying you back in the left ramp you literally let the ball drain off the left ramp and that that will give you a letter and you're just so you just do that or train or there's a there's a safer way right to get the ball back to your flipper well there's there's the you know the left and right ramp feed the the left and right end Lanes but the amp is the far left in Lane yeah so you can go up to the base ramp you can do that or you can alley pass it oh wow I hadn't even thought about that so that's is that a so that strategy is that well first off have either of you guys played GNR in a tournament I actually have did you see that strategy being utilized focusing in on the the little mini multi walls are actually they were going into songs no well I mean there was some focus on it but you know by the time Ball 3 came around uh it was it was time to go into a song but I will say on that particular copy um the flippers were really weak so it was hard making shots on the ramps so that played a key factor and the the strategy of the game as well interesting okay so if that's the if that's the tournament Strat which that's really interesting I that I guarantee some listener that I never even thought about that but so just figure out which patch it is to specifically amp amp is the main multiple because you you just say you played over and over again once you have the patch yeah four patches yeah you have to get all four to get the unlimited yeah so you can't just get one patch four amp multiball and play that one unlimited right all right you need all you need that entire set oh wow so it is a grind it is a grind to get all four yeah and if you can't backhand that left ramp to you know just do the I call it Patch factory okay if you can't do that then yeah you're going to be playing for songs you're going to be you want to lock the balls and get your biggest ball saver for for your song so that you can play as much as you can while in safety of ball saver and then cash out at the earliest possible interesting because I found myself um definitely trying to get there was one I think it was drumsticks or something that basically it doubled the value of the pops and then so there's certain there were certain songs that were switch hits so the goal is to just get it back in the pops anyway so I was trying to stack some of those patches and then I know if you got all four of the different sponsors that's a mult that's an extra ball so that was something I was always aware of and then I know pin monk was big on getting I think it was I tried to remember it was like t-shirt and poster which help you with the the song Length or something or the length of your ball say I mean there's a lot of strategy there if you really want to pursue it well that's maybe okay so tournament Strat you focus on the multi balls before the song but Carl if you're trying to go for longevity and playing the game as as much as you can what how would you attack that right so if I'm going if I'm Point pushing I'm gonna do all the similar things I'm gonna go for those four sponsors to get the extra ball I especially want Fender as my first one okay because Fender is the one that whenever you spot a band member it gives you another band member and that's what pimmonk was probably telling you about yeah it's my guess because I'll get you to ban frenzy quicker in the songs and frenzy increases the scoring yep now there's a lot of magic Mojo whatever you want to call it with the scoring I still don't understand exactly what increases the song values or you know when you go into a song you have a value of it's between 10 and 200 200 it says Max um and that determines the value of the points in a song you increase that value by doing well in the booster multiballs um getting certain patches and and so on so as the game gets deeper and deeper the songs become more valuable if you get to an encore it makes the next song even more valuable so that the value it just keeps compounding on it but again all the math is in the background so you don't see exactly what the scoring will be wow okay and at the same time if you drain it's all gone it's all that's that's the thing that I found when I streamed it is I would get you know two or three patches the patches that I wanted to get I get it you know I think I got everything built up I'm like this is the song I want to pick it's a switch hit mode I'm going to focus on this I'm going in with four multi four balls I had lock three here we go let's go and then boom like triple drain down to one ball flub that and it's all gone and it's like well ball two so I get to start all that over again you know and it just I will say there are some of the lowest lows I've ever had in pinball were on that game but then there was a time that I cashed out for me it was a big I don't even remember what it was but it was big it was a big jackpot for me and like actually hitting the shot and getting that was quite a feeling so I don't know I mean Carl you don't own you were just borrowing it or you own it so I owned it I I still have it right now I'm putting it up on the on the Block pretty soon though and so why is it leaving the collection it's time it's a it's become a grind to me I actually haven't enjoyed playing it as much lately I mean it's a great game for any prospective buyer please buy my game yeah um no no I really that that first year of ownership I thoroughly enjoyed the game just because of the because it's the risk reward I just love tacking on as much risk as I could you know and I'd have those moments where I missed the Applause jackpot in the end with a 100 million point jackpot list and it's gone there's nothing it's just gone I move on to the next song and it's like you're dejected at that point it's it's you'll know if you even want to play that next song yeah yeah um yeah because that's where all the points were it was in in you know if you could get to the third song in a set you know two encores in a row that third song would just it could just blow up the game yeah you know two or three hundred million if like especially if you got to it's strange that was always why I was hoping it would push me into because the strange I was found was easy to keep going because the shots are on the targets a lot of them so you can constantly get out of balls and even though it's a really long song you keep getting out of balls over and over and by the end the jackpots are just insane yeah I'm gonna act like I know that feeling but I I think I I don't know I think I had a jack I I think I I got Encore a handful of times you know to get even to a second song so I don't have to do the grind of collecting the players again I was like yes here we go let's get another song going and and just when I felt like I had the the when you have that feeling of like this is huge this is huge just I have like three more shots I have to hit before I have a chance to cash out like come on do it hit the shot you know it just I don't know it makes you it's it's exhilarating and that's I know people that watch me streaming they saw that they saw that that roller coaster of a ride and I still feel like GNR for uh for a bigger collection makes sense I I it's such a unique experience um I mean Tom it's still in yours what what's drawn you and I mean why is it still I know I haven't turned it on in a while but you still have it you haven't sold it yeah Neil Neil wants to keep it oh okay uh no I like it I Like Guns and Roses music I think I think the theme is definitely well integrated in the yeah in the game they did an amazing job with it um yeah I I still like it I I wish it was a little less multiball intensive but it is what it is yeah I get it and I before I had GNR I felt like Metallica had done the risk reward thing extremely well like I really thought that would they had kind of set the bar and then I got GNR and I was like okay this game is nothing but risk reward I really enjoy that and then that that's actually something that I'm finding myself really enjoying in in Godzilla and I know that's something that Keith has built into that the risk War same thing it's like what do you want to do do you want to experience more cities and try to get deeper into different modes or do you just want to push your luck and just stay here in this city and try to build and build and build so that you can cash out and um yeah I definitely think it's nothing about that yeah Carl is the king of that and that's something Carl I think with rush I think you're you're going to get you're gonna get in trouble because yeah yeah I've I've yeah I've seen I've seen the potential in certain spots yeah we're going back to Godzilla the reason that doesn't get tiring to me or grindy is because like the Carnage bonuses you're always trying to build that but it's that same ball once you drain it's gone you move around the next city you're advancing through the rest of the game right yeah on Guns and Roses it's basically you're playing one way or the other you're either playing for the wizard modes or you're playing for points you're not gonna do both and unfortunately the points in the Wizard modes are determined by how many points you earn in the songs so it but they never work together so like you need to play a good 10 to 12 minutes in each album you know songs from each album to have a decent value in your wizard modes yeah so you have to have at least an hour long game to be able to have any sort of value in the final wizard mode and Sympathy for the Devil otherwise you're not going to get anything so I mean the way you get to that wizard mode is you play the you play three minutes minimum in each album okay so appetite illusion one and two and Chinese Democracy okay you play Slash solo which is just spin the disc a bunch right yep and everyone times that slash solo because it's not worth much although I I do hear they're working on code and they're going to be updating that okay and then you also play tour multiball which is shooting orbits until you finally like that so however many orbits after all that you get to um and you play the four wizard modes for the albums and then finally not in this lifetime or the Mode's called Sympathy for the Devil will be lit now I went through this I've been to it I think three times I I did the grind to get there and the first time it's a weird it's actually a different style but kind of like rush I mean this is before rush but you know the um what's the planet on rush anyways it's it's the one with the wacky flipper stuff so it's very similar where you've got the reverse flippers you've got the center button to activate pop bumpers or activate flippers stuff like that spoilers by the way sorry yeah that's how that works the spoiler tag you throw it in the middle of the spoiler um but but anyways the scoring for that mode is based on the previous wizard modes and so if you don't have any points in that you have I walked out of that wizard mode finishing it one time and it was 300 000 I think oh wow which is nothing on that game I mean there's no I would hope that there would at least be a base value of some sort to make it feel like it was worthwhile after after you know working on the game for how you know playing the game for a half hour to get there yeah just do something yeah like like for instance Rush the the mode you were talking about which is the sickness X1 book two hemispheres um it's all about your super jackpots and your and your in your modes or your multiballs so you know yeah so it does build but at the same time I I mean I think when I played that came out around 500 million I mean I feel like that game you know the the goals to score in that wizard mode you're gonna naturally get right and you're not having to extend specifically you know I don't I don't have to make sure that I play this album songs in this album for 15 minutes right to make sure that I have some sort of value there correct yeah and that's what I ran into well I'm not anywhere near that like wizard mode but just even when I was playing if it was the idea was was like I just wanted to see as much song as I could my goal is always Encore my goal like that was my goal because I could usually get far enough in a song to qualify the wizard mode but then P like what bummed me out was I don't know of any other game that I've borrowed or owned that I avoided a wizard mode I mean that was there they'd be like no hold the button in you don't want to do the wizard mode like there's no points because I didn't I had no points in my song so there's no point in the Wizard mode or I like qualified slash solo and they're like cradle up just wait it out I'm like these are modes that somebody spent time coding a unique experience and I'm being old the smart thing here is don't do it like don't even don't do it there's no reason to do it um the tour multiball I actually did do that was just one of those like I want to see if I can do it and I grind it away and hit all the shots I needed to do it to achieve it and that was kind of fun but I don't know how that unless you have this marathon of a game like you're talking about car I don't know how you get to that mode um unless it's just a long game so that's an interesting thing I mean I know you do have to have a similar mentality though when you play Godzilla though because I know when Keith put in what is it there's Planet X and then there's there's the stage after Planet X like I know when you are trying to get to that which is what king of the monsters yeah when you're trying to get that you're dropping all thought of like building in each City you're just trying to get it's kind of a race for you to get to there right I mean for the streams yes for the streams I will if I'm if I have a goal of king of the monsters I'll skip some multi balls I won't play tank in every city you know yeah when I play by myself I I try to complete everything you can't you can't yeah I can't stop it it's that risk reward I I have to you know I want that 5x Carnage bonus once I do drain out of a city yeah then I go okay okay it's time to change okay Coral yeah it pains you it pains you but well cool well is there anything I mean GNR I I still enjoy the game I would love to play it it's definitely a game if you've only played it at a bar you're just you're missing out it's a game you you really have to explain play in a in a home environment uh the music and light show is just insane and if you if you like that type of game where you're just it's it's risk reward like if that's really what draws you back in um that's awesome and Carl I mean people look to you guys you you high-end players and they're like if the high-end players own these games there's got to be something here there's got to be something in that game to draw them back in over and over and over again so the fact is still in Tom's collection Carl the fact that lasted in your collection for over a year I mean you're that that says something about the game for sure I don't know well good luck selling it it's a great yeah going to miss it dearly that's what I'm hearing you can barely he what is all the things you read up inside like I don't want to sell it but I have to at the same time they've made so many of them that it won't be hard to pick up again if I do miss it and that's one of the factors to selling it yeah it is unique it is definitely one of the games that I was able to borrow from Zach that there are that I do miss like it is a and I miss that feeling that roller coaster I don't miss the the punch in the gut that I got every time but it's but the high the high the Cashing Out is is something that I'm that I do miss ultra high and ultra low that's what that game does yeah all right anything else or do we miss anything else with triple combo on GNR just uh do all that I mean yeah real the tournament Strat don't play a song tournament Strat don't play a song just focus on the the mini modes or the mini multiballs and The Wizard mode just try to get the bare minimum right the bare minimum that you need to to get to the album wizard mode you do that for all four albums you gotta crush a bunch of Loops to to get tour you have to hit the spinner a whole bunch of times to get slash and then and then is it just qualified or is there something and then you're there and hit your scoop and you start it and then you have fun with the crazy flipper action and love all the points you didn't earn because you you did it too fast and hope you finish it too because it's not the easiest thing to finish all right well let's wrap that up then hello [Music] there we go yeah well that feels good feels good I think uh you know when Travis is here I feel like triple combo is typically what like three times longer than that that's why Dennis Crystal shout out to dinner he hates it he hates triple combo he's like you guys talk about the same game for way too long like we're trying this was the baby's first edition babies first baby's first yeah well cool um yeah is there anything else anything Carl is there anything you want to talk about here you know it's yeah Travis usually at this point is you know heckled me and and hurt my feelings was I supposed to take that place you don't have to no I did not he's been thank you yes well cool uh What uh just uh you know end is coming up let's see oh yeah you know January shoot I should know the dates off the top of my head and I don't he's gonna he's gonna research it I know you had that all in package I got my tickets bought my plane ticket bed and breakfast or Airbnb um awesome awesome no I'm excited to watch it I will I would love to as a I don't know I did I would love to do at least one of these bigger tournaments just to even be there I mean just to watch it from afar is great but to see it in person I even this the little bit that I saw at Cleveland I really enjoyed um I should probably participate but like super series or something I want to make my way up to one of those sometime yeah um and uh yeah should be a good time but well Carl is that it is there anything else you could play I mean I.E pinball obviously if you want to see some high quality streaming Carl does it really well not only technically but also skill wise so IU pinball check them out yeah starting a new Wizard mode Challenge on Stearns Indiana Jones where I'm gonna kill myself I think because I've seen what it involves now after saying I'm gonna do it I I now need to actually do it which is it's going to be the grindiest thing ever this is worse than 24. E I think so I think this is the bad Indiana Jones this is yes exactly and I know when you were streaming Big Buck Hunter you had a hunting hat that you wore a lot do you did somebody get you an Indiana Jones Fedora I mean are you dressing up for this no Fedora yet and that hat was given to me like a week into that you know when I started going crazy yeah so it's just a matter of time is what I mean yeah yeah it won't be daily like Big Buck Hunter that's what was nice with Big Buck Hunter was it that's you know it was what at the beginning of the pandemic I was getting off work at three so I could jump right on and you know stream for two hours right I loved it man I loved watching you slowly head into Insanity it was great and then the to actually see you though complete it was great so that's I'm excited to see that come back I.E pinball and twitch IE pinball on YouTube you can see all of your your wizard mode challenges they are fantastic extremely entertaining so Carl thank you not only for being on the show but thanks for just all that content I mean it's very entertaining thank you for all your content oh well I do what I can but it's it's uh I find we stream Carl and I stream at very similar times and I think it's a great uh yin and yang of uh we both do our best to stay engaged with chat and um uh you know Carl's over there like a like a great Formula One driver you know just nailing every turn and I I'm like a demolition derby so I'm just crashing and burning but hey we're having a good time um yeah real good time um and yeah Tom like always thanks for being here plug away man thanks for thanks for coming out of retirement and you know still giving your gift too again after free play Florida but uh um I have uh or District 82 has uh Black Friday uh tournament coming up so I'm going to be streaming that nice so after you have turkey and you're all full and you do all your shopping and you're really tired just sit down and watch some pinball action I'm gonna wake you right up yeah so like you're very competitive pinball that's where it's yes and I'd say Travis can plug something but he he literally has nothing to plug he plugs this he plugs triple drain so oh thanks to all of our patreon members thank you for everybody that supports us there and then triple drain merch silver ball swag thank you once again for Jackson for making an amazing yeah what do you think feels good it's nice Yeah Carl we need ideas I bought a shirt and a hoodie they're just they're they're in the other room yeah yeah oh thank you I was gonna say we need to get you one thanks for being on here I I uh what's funny to me is you as a listener have already contributed more money to this podcast than Travis has because he is he has not bought any of our merch he literally got a hoodie finally after a little bit of that's not even a joke Tom that's just Travis being terrible so well thank you for the support that was just saving money for that camera okay no I don't know what he's doing I don't know but um well yeah uh thank you Carl thank you Tom uh check me out every Wednesday on the pinball Network and then every other Thursday I'm flipping out and um like always Tom you get the last words later everybody