Oh, cut deep. Don't you be talking about our kangaroos like that. I love them. So March Madness, a lot of people, I would say, especially this side of the border and maybe outside the world, maybe don't really watch as much college basketball. Certainly someone like Todd has a vested interest in that and some great history as well. But when it comes time to this bracket thing that you're talking about, Martin, yeah, it's a lot of fun. It's time to bet. You know, you don't have to know anything. You just look at the numbers. You can check on all websites and see, oh, this team's good on defense or good on three-point shooting, blah, blah. You can kind of try to figure it out yourself. Who cares? You pick a team. You make a bracket. It's fun. You follow along. It makes the games a little more interesting and a lot of office pools and things like that. But we didn't actually have a March Madness last year because of COVID, so I think this year is going to be a little more special. I don't know how you feel about it, Todd. Yeah, I would say it was really, really weird and strange to not have it. I mean, the tournament's been going on for so long. And when I was at the University of Washington, our whole goal was to get to the NCAA tournament. And it's what we fought hard. It's what we went to practice for every day. And we ended up getting there. And it was just sort of the culmination of everything that we put into. And to not have it last year, you know, as someone who's played in the tournament, I personally, I think it's the best sporting event in the world. And I'm a little bit biased because of the exposure I've had to college basketball and the experiences I've had. But I'm obviously not the only one that enjoys it. And I think you can pick the best mascot that would win in a fight. You can pick from the school colors. You can pick from the states you like. So you can do just well in those pools. I've played in the NCAA tournament twice, and I'm always last in every pool I always play in. So it's never a formula for success. But it's just such a special thing. It's one and done, and you can just get hot. And to not have it last year was very strange. and one more indicator that the world was just not right. So I'm glad that we're going to be back, and I really think it's anybody's year. I mean, if there's ever a year for somebody to sneak up and win it, this is going to be the one. So I can't wait to watch it this year. I think there'll be a lot of interest. Outside of March Madness, does the college basketball sort of scene get as much airplay as the NBA throughout the year, or is it really only March Madness? College basketball is big. It's probably not as big as the NBA, with that being such a major sport. But there's 82 games in a regular season of the NBA, and there's maybe a maximum of 30 in a collegiate season. So there's less games, so it's probably on TV less. But you've got certain universities and conferences that draw very well. And I think the ratings for college basketball in some conferences is quite high. So there is a lot of interest. And there's some people that just prefer college athletics to the pros. And because there's only 30 games, every one of them counts. And so there's a lot of interest in college basketball. And it's been pretty fun. But I tend to wait until the tournament to – that's when it really, really matters, when you lose once and it's time to go home. And there's only one winner at the end of it. It's very – it's special. We made it to the Sweet 16 in 1998. And our university was going crazy. And people to this day still come up to me and tell me how special that team was. and everybody remembers, I mean, we had just the buzzer beaters are what make it so special, and you, of course, want to end up on the winning side of that. Our first game, we won by a point, and it could have gone either way, and we were on the right side of it. And then the second game, we ended up doing quite a bit better. And then the third game, we had only one lead in the game with 20 seconds left. We took our first lead, and it looked like we were going to upset, as an 11-seed, a number two-seeded team. and they got about four shots at the end of the basketball game. It's pretty exciting. And if you're lucky, you might get one or two chances to tie it up or win. And there was a mad scramble and they took about four shots in the last few seconds and I could not get a rebound. And they made it. And it was a heartbreaker for us. And there's still fans in this region that still remember just how tough it was to lose like that. But when you take a step back, it was a great success for our team and the season was a big success. but it's hard to separate that in the moment. And then every year they keep showing all of these highlights that happened about some of the best buzzer beaters, and it's always in there. Was that Rip Hamilton? That was Rip Hamilton, and no surprise that he hit a clutch shot. He went on to an incredible NBA career and a great guy, so no surprise that he was able to make a fall-away jump shot at the free throw line. But there was a lot of pressure in that situation, and he stepped up big time, and they would not quit until the buzzer went off. And I couldn't believe the buzzer hadn't gone off. You see teams get a chance or two, and they were really scrambling, and they got it to go. I don't know if this makes up for that loss, but playing poker at a casino in Motor City, I took $500 off Rip Hamilton. Is it even? Does that help, Todd? Every little bit helps, so thank you. I appreciate you doing that. That's wonderful. Thank you. But to what Marty was saying about the popularity of the sport, too, it really depends on where you are. And we're going to get into pinball, but just one last note about this basketball thing. In North Carolina, they have an NBA team, but that doesn't matter. It's all about Duke and UNC. And then you've got places like Kentucky and Kansas where they don't have NBA teams, and it's all about college basketball. So it's a fun time of year for sure. And if you have a chance to do a bracket, even if it's free, even if it's online, do it, because it's a lot of fun, and you will find yourself interested. What I like about college basketball, and I want to talk about this as far as adrenaline and sports and pinball. What I like about college basketball, more so than the pros, is just the eagerness of the kids playing. Like this might be their last game because they won't all go on to be pros. Just the passion of every shot, every play. They're all into it. And it's not always skilled play, but it's just that excitement. And it kind of does remind me of, you know, the first time you're doing pinball competitions, too. You're used to playing at home or in your leagues, a little more casual. You get into pinball, and all of a sudden the adrenaline starts going. and you're like, I can't make this shot. What's going on? Yeah, there's a lot of truth to that. I think that's the great pinball players are able to play like it's in their basement. And I, you know, Bowen Cairns and Keith Elwin, these guys are just cool cats on the big stage when the time comes that I would, you know, when I first got into competitive pinball, I thought that I would have an advantage. I was sort of naive and thinking, you know what, I have a unique sports background. I've played in the NBA finals. I would regularly play in front of 20,000 screaming fans and I can handle the pressure in this little pinball tournament to win, you know, 50 bucks is not going to rattle me. And here I'd be hands sweating, getting all nervous, hearts beating, I'm freaking out and I would drain and it would drive me nuts that the, the mechanisms and the muscle memory and all of the techniques that I developed for basketball went completely out the window for, for pinball tournaments. And I think Bowen and I were, were teammates one time in a doubles tournament. And usually no one can really talk to you while you're playing but in this you know the rules of this where your partner can say anything to you they can coach you and having somebody like Bowen that was a rules expert and just a you know a great motivator and a great teammate I think we were playing Creatures in Black Lagoon and and he was telling me okay Todd shoot the snack bar three times I need you to hit the snack bar three times and so I said okay routinely I've got to hit it three times and I should have known subconsciously that there's you don't need to shoot that three times in a row but I did the first one was just no big deal. And I hit it and it was a super jackpot and we won the match. And I was like, you lied to me. And he's like, if I told you, hey, this is a big shot, hit it. We're going to win or we're going to lose. I'd get all nervous and I'd miss the shot. And he just he tricked my brain and say, hey, we need three sack bars, get the first one. And that was the end of the match. And so I think those great players do that for themselves and they find a way to de-emphasize those moments. And it's the same in basketball. You know, you've had all this time shooting a ball into a room the same size and you've got to keep it in perspective. And while you understand the importance of the moment, you don't let it overwhelm you somehow. And you still play like you're having fun. Good thing we didn't tell Todd before we started. There are 20,000 people listening to this podcast right now. He might get nervous, Marty. Those are impressive numbers. Good job, fellas. They are impressive, fictitious numbers. The hobby is growing, isn't it? So were you always into pinball, like growing up before basketball, or did it happen during or after? I've always been into pinball longer than I was into basketball. I was born in 1976, and as soon as I was old enough to be in an arcade or to go to the roller skating rink or go to the bowling alley, and there was pinball machines, and I had 50 cents in my pocket, I was playing it. And I used to, there's like a church group that I think after church and Bible study, we would go to the bowling alley. And I think there were three kids and one instructor. And when it was my turn to bowl, I would throw, you know, in Canada, I think we had five pin bowling and three balls. And I would throw them all down the lane as quickly as possible, not caring what I hit. And then I would run to the arcade and play pinball. And inevitably, if I was having a good game, it would get around to my turn. And they're like, where is Todd? He's never here. He's always playing pinball. Why do we even bowl with him? And so even as long as I can remember, I would rather play pinball than almost do anything else. And when I signed with the Nets in New Jersey, we bought a house with an empty finished basement, and I found out that you could own pinball machines. And I said, I would like a Whitewater, please, because that's the game I grew up with sort of in my summers. And I would like a Pinbot because that's the game I grew up with. And I would like a Medieval Madness because they were affordable and nobody was really into them back then. And that's the game I played in college. And those got delivered to my house. And it was just my wife and I, no kids at the time. And now I'm not a college student anymore, so I don't have to study. I'm a professional basketball player. And my job on a non-game day is probably between 11 in the afternoon until 2. So I had a lot of downtime. So I came home and just played pinball. And I thought, there must be something wrong with me because this is all I want to do. And I'm sick and I need help. And then all I did instead of getting help is I found other people that like to do that as well. And I realized there was safety in numbers. And I realized I wasn't the only pinaholic. And that's how it all started for me in terms of collecting. But I've loved the game since I was just a little guy. And obviously, you've excelled in it, too. In fact, you really got into competitive pinball. Martin said that it was 2006. So that's shortly after your NBA career. And I wonder when you play pinball and going from high-level competition in the NBA to whatever high-level competition pinball tournaments are, but still it's competition you mentioned about being nervous. I would assume in college, in the pros, at some point you dealt with sports psychologists and maybe some reading on how to get that edge or be competitive. I'm wondering what some of these great books or techniques are that might carry over to pinball. Yeah, we definitely had. By the way, when you answer this, I'm going to cut this out so no one can hear it so that I can absorb this myself. It'll be just for me and Marty. That's it. No one will get to hear this. So I hope I remember to cut this out. Go ahead. Yeah, we had access to a sports psychologist. And I think it was kind of a growing science. And people were realizing that you could really gain a big advantage. You know, I think they did a big study about someone that actually physically maybe shot 100 free throws a day and somebody that just visualized doing it. And I think they ended up with similar results. And so there was just a lot of people that realized that the visualization and relaxation and goal setting and really thinking about the game from a mental aspect could really help you in your career. And so those are the sorts of things that I thought would help me in pinball tournaments. And they really didn't. So I had to learn a whole new skill set about just trying to have fun and not worry about the results and focus on the process and all the great coaches I've had all along the lines. I mean, there were 82 games in an NBA season. You're going to lose some. You're not going to win them all. And our coach, Larry Brown, who's a Hall of Fame coach, would sometimes we just didn't have it. And he'd come in and say, okay, guys, you know, we're not going to win every game and every season we're going to have a couple stinkers like that. Let's just come back tomorrow and get back to work. And so I think all the great ones focus on the process as opposed to the results. And usually those results take care of themselves. And so I think with pinball, you know, I've always wanted to be good. But I think more importantly, I've just wanted to have fun. And the Sharp brothers, of course, have, you know, grown up to be a couple of the best players in the world. And I think I had asked them, like, how do you guys get better? What do you do? And at some point, I think they said, well, you can take the glass off and you can work on your drop catches and you can do reps. And I said, nope, not interested. If I have to disassemble this game down to its elements, I'm not interested. And so I just want to play a full game in my basement with my friends. And if I get better doing that, great. If I don't, I didn't want to distill the game down to its elements. I wanted to keep it whole and pure. And that's the way I've kept it as a fun activity. That's interesting what you said about Larry Brown, the great coach, who said, you know, after a stinker game, you let it go. We've got 82 in a season. So in pinball, I see a lot of people, I've been guilty myself of having a terrible ball and letting that get at me so that it affects the next two balls. And you talked about some of these cool, calm players that just nothing phases them. That's a real asset to be able to forget the bad ball and even forget the good ball, too, because there's another ball. There's another game. Yeah, I think that's the secret is just really keeping that in perspective and not letting one mistake lead to the next one. Then also, you know, I feel like I've played in some tournaments where I've had a good ball one and maybe taken my foot off the gas a little bit thinking, you know, I've got this in the bag and just to see people storm back. And so I think there's lessons to be learned about leaving something behind. There's, you know, there's really nothing I can do about yesterday and I can't do anything about ball three yet. so I'm on ball too, this is the one I need to focus on. And I'm trying to build up the lead and never really taking your foot on the gas because if your opponent has a ball left, I've seen people just blow up games. And so there's been some times where I think I've let people creep up thinking that I had a safe lead that just did not turn out to be that safe. So that the thing with tournaments is you have your ball and then you got time to think And that thinking time can really help or hinder your game Not only because you're reflecting on what you've just done, whether it's good or bad, you're then watching other people. And let's say you do ball one, you have this fantastic ball and you're on top of the world. The next player comes along and has an even better ball that can then play on your mind as well. So because you've got that time in between balls, there's too much thinking time to start getting in your head. And I know this may surprise you to hear this, that I wasn't an elite athlete. I know. Put your jaws off the ground. I know. It's going to surprise everyone. I'm shocked to hear that. I was told that when you came on this program. This is bullshit. Zach. Zach Manning. New host.