says, "Best hold screen of any podcast." What's going on everybody? I'm going to bang my mic. It's Jeff uh Dirty Pool podcast. Here we are. Today is a special day, as every day is for the Pinball Podcast. Uh it is the 11th episode and I am so pleased to be joined by an international uh pinball lover this time. I'm going to try to say your name correctly even though we did talk about it. I had it. Well, you said I what? 98% correct last time. 98.6. Let's see if I can bump it up one. It's Gom F. Brilliant. You got 100%. Brilliant, man. Well done, Joe. It is Paris Pinball Addict known uh more I would say commonly in the States. Uh thank you for joining me. What time is it there? It's actually 900 p.m. in France and Paris. Yeah, it's uh it's not night time, you know. We're very hot today. I you your lighting has got me all tricked. It looks like it's like noon over there at 9 p.m. Amazing. Uh so you and I have talked more before the actual broadcast went live probably more than any other guest and uh I think that that's kind of a interesting two-parter uh because what I would love to dive into today, we talked about a few topics and I kind of want to set the stage here with everybody that's joined us. The first one is of course you your journey as a kind of like pin influencer which I [ __ ] hate that name pinball ambassador uh and what it's like to become someone like that and what you would kind of talk about with people that are interested in going down that road. The second thing that we talked about and I think is is extremely important. you work in marketing and we talked about what can the pinball manufacturers do to make for a better state of release in terms of how to communicate new games and how to get the excitement and the news about game releases from the company to the consumer. Right. Brilliant. Very interesting topics. Let's second one. Yeah. You know, we'll get there. Let's start with you. When did you get into pinball? All right. Well, first of all, Jeff, thanks for having me on your podcast. really appreciate the opportunity. Love talking pinball and uh big fan of your of all the content you've put over these last few months and I think you're just uh you're it's amazing what you've done. Uh, so I I've been into pinball pretty much as a fan since as long as I can I can remember, probably my teenage years. And as you and I have discussed, we've we've we've had some years where we left that on the side of bed because of, you know, school studies and stuff. And in my early 30s, got back into pinball, got the opportunity to buy a house, a bit of more space. I'm like, well, how about I fill it with a pinball machine? And you got one, got two, you know how it works. And then you're like, because I'm a marketer, because I like coms, because I like visuals and sounds, I'm like, how about I do some content about this? But I appreciate what you said earlier. You made me feel like Keith Hwin for a second. But you know, I'm just a random guy from France trying to make uh fun with pinball. And as we discussed, it's not always easy from afar because obviously being across the pond, you you're not in direct contact with the the actuality. So you need to have some relays there. And fair enough, I've got a lot of good friends in the US. But um it it's been a fun ride since uh probably 2018, I think, for for the content creator on Instagram. Oh, so I think that I'm going to I'm going to say something that I think is fairly controversial, but I think pinball needs pin influencers and pinball ambassadors. And the reason I say that is because unlike a product or or someone who's just doing lifestyle posts on Instagram, pinball's not easily accessible to the general population. It's an unknown thing. It's a niche hobby. It needs people to have a voice in order to share and spread that info to people. And I think that creates an environment where there's a responsibility for the people that talk about pinball to kind of represent it in the best format. And uh yeah, what are your thoughts on that? I'm also going to go turn off the dryer cuz it won't shut up right now and it's my podcast. Shut up dryer. Come on. Right. So, you know what? I I think it's uh it's interesting what you said because we we need those people I believe like you said to be um to have the the word of mouth and to be your your uh your player on the street and be like I did play this game or come in with me try we need those ambassadors so to speak and I believe the brands being in marketing I believe brands need ambassadors but what I try and bring to the table because of my my profession is being more of an analyst I don't try necessarily to chill for chill when I'm super excited trust me I'm super excited and I'm the first one to chill But I like the the whole market analysis. I like to put things in perspective a little bit. See how brands differ from one another. Uh see um how they do things, how they how they could improve things. I try and bring the level of analysis that I do for my clients in PR to my favorite hobby, which is pinball. And I think that's at least in France. I think that's pretty unique. But to to your point, I think, yeah, um it we need people to talk about pinball cuz it's it's an old hobby, right? We can go back to the uh the early 1930s even even to the bagetel from the days of Louis the 15th and Louis the 16th in France because I'm sure you're aware of that pinball used to be yeah it used to be bagel he was founded in France back in the 17th century and it transported to America and Americans being American they decided to improve the game and put flippers so that's why it's called pinball. So the original wood rails were a French invention. Yeah. So you it's called pinball because it was like like a wood platform with pins and the ball was just the pins and like that and the Americans brought the flippers. They're like, "How about we send the ball back up? That's that should be fun." So the flippers come from America, but the actual woodwork and the pins come from France. So that's a funny thing. Uh I lost track of my story. I don't even know what I got there for. We're talking about the the importance of the of the pinball influencers to communicating the pinball. That's right. And it's it's an old game. It's a game that's very physical, tangible. It's it's a hobby that's expensive that it eats up a lot of space in the room. So, we need people to realize in this day and age where everything is digital, everything's untangible, we need to realize that it's fun to put your freaking hands on something physical and to actually make sure that no two games is alike. And I think this is the critical point with pinball is that you play video games, it's zeros and ones in the code, obviously. So, you get to the end of that say video game, it's over. you can have fun again, but you you've seen the end of it. A pinball machine, even if you have one pinball machine in your room, you won't have two games alike. And that is mindboggling when you come to think of it. So, this is why there should be some people say, "Come on, wake up, play this amazing game." This unlike any other game. Uh, Fartex is asking, so this is a good this is a good setup. So, Fartex is asking, uh, what is your job? and we talked a little bit about work and how we can speak pretty independently without any fear because our income isn't from pinball. And I think some of the stuff that we're going to say about how pinball should change in terms of its uh marketing process is going to be pretty blunt in the next hour or so. Um so why don't you yeah tell Fartex let's talk about a little bit of your background. and I'll talk about a little bit of mine and then we'll dive into what we think could be improved in the pinball industry. Sure. So, um, so I'm a PR person and I've been working in PR for more than 25 years now. I work in tech PR. So, I represent brands, big brands like Dolby, like Polaroid, Nvidia, uh, Huawei, the telephones, big big international brands. So, I do PR programs for them, marketing programs, digital marketing as well. So, this is my I I I have my own company. I have an agency with about 30 people in there since more than 20 years. So this is how I get my income. Uh so pinball really is a hobby. Uh I do all those travels for pinball expo, pinball festival in Texas on my own expenses. Uh I've I've always made sure that it it's a hobby and I want it to stay a hobby. So this is what you know we discussed together uh before is I think it gives us some freedom of speech that we can say the things the way we we want. We don't feel obliged to have to chill anybody. Uh, so I think that's a strength that we have because we can speak genuinely. And I think at least in France when I talk to people on those live shows that I do in France with my team. I'm like, you know, like it's genuine because I'm not trying to be uh sneaky or mean, not at all. I just say the things the way I see them. When I love something, I say it. I don't have any allegiance to any brand in particular. I just love pinball. I recognize that we need Stern. And granted, we got Sterns. There wouldn't be pinball otherwise. That doesn't mean I have to chill everything that Stern says. I'm big friends with the European director of Stern. uh he knows how I feel about things and it's always been very nice and I want it to be to be kept as a hobby. That's true. Uh so let's do we get into do we get into the do we dive straight into Yeah, let's go. Pinball marketing to the consumer. Should we do that? All right. Yeah, let's go. So there have been a number of launches of pinball machines over the last I mean decades but for this year has been a bumper crop and every single company has kind of taken a slightly different approach to how they are trying to advertise their games to get people excited about it and you and I talked about how each of these had slightly different approaches and that not all of them have really landed and so to help with pinball all people if there are people marketing people that are watching this or listening let's talk about our experience and just a little bit of transparency as well because you talked about being a shill I'm recently I'm working with barrels of fun so I just want to be transparent about that I know that David has been very concerned about people marketing me as a shill as well I'm happy to be very very uh clear about my opinions on both the companies I'm working with and the companies that I'm not on top of that similar to you said with your marketing I work at a post-production company and we do marketing for Amazon and we work huge brands helping taking their assets and making advertising campaigns for them. So the point of that is that you and I know what we're talking about when it comes to marketing. Let's talk about a company that's done a good launch. What do you think of the past? Let's use we'll talk about what Evil Dead, Dune, Pinball Brothers with uh Predator, and of course Harry Potter. Let's let's talk about the good and bad elements of those launches and what would be the gold standard for how a company should present a game when they have a launch release from from from uh the rumor mill to release day. Which one do you want to start with? Well, I mean I would say let's pick one you think that's done the most right and let's let's go there first. I would say the one that's probably been the most interesting case study over the last three years. Now you'll see why I say three years is JJP uh Jersey Jack Pinball because to me it all starts with their big bang launch of Gundon Roses which I feel was an amazing marketing launch by Ken Cromwell uh who was working there as a PR marketing person. I think that was the first time that we had a proper showcase of a video something that looked like a bang. Obviously it's Guns and Roses but remember that video you had the lady playing and everything. It felt like oh my god um when pinball meets Hollywood a little bit. Obviously, I'm just farfetching it a little bit, but it it it it felt really different. And then you had a another launch. You had Godfather, which felt like a step back, and then they came back with the bank with Harry Potter. So, I could I think that could be an interesting to talk about JJP and that sort of wire form that that happened over those last three launches. What do you think? Absolutely. Sure. Let's do that. Also, of course, I can't believe I forgot King Kong. I own King Kong, by the way, so I'm surprised, which is to me, it's pretty interesting that I feel like Owen's latest game is kind of like off the radar in a little bit, which is which is wild because I think Kong is is an awesome game. And uh and I think Stern's event was a good way of bringing the kind of marketing aspect to it. So that they didn't have to do the leg work because they knew that the people they were bringing would do it for them. All right. So, you know what? Let's start with Kong because you're on it and and it's that's actually a amazing case study as well. You know the thing with Kong that's that's my perception of it. There's been a lot of rumor you're talking about the rumor mill. There was a lot of rumors over the last few months when will the next uh Spike 2 Spike 3 sorry Spike 3 come out and people thought you know Keith Alwin game spike 3 makes a lot of sense who better than Keith Alwin's game for Spike 3 to launch it. So obviously Stern knew that was not going to happen and it was a bit of a low-key launch but I feel it was totally assumed by them in the sense that they know what they have. They have the king Elwin. He's probably making the best layouts of all pinball right now. He's the pat loader of the 21st century. Um, so they know what they have. They have Zombie Yeti. They got a great combo together. They know how to work. The product is good. And they also have something else. They've invested in the Stern army over the years um with um with Michael um name will come back. Sorry. Uh so they they they have him who's in charge of the Stern army at Stern and they've built that sort of momentum where they have those Stern launchers all across the all all around the US and this is how by the inside like like like a Georgian horse they go into the clubs the barge where people meet and they bring the game and they have that launch party and I feel like they felt for a Keith Alen game combined with uh with Zombie Yeti going through the Stern Army was probably a good way to uh a good way to launch probably very efficient in terms of uh money cost, not too expensive. And because they knew the game was good, it would be a good word of mouth and has a snowball effect. Time after time after weeks after weeks, they'll be like, "My gosh, it's a future classic." I think they knew what they had. I agree. It's just it isn't immediately there because of kind of the dizzying array of machines that are out right now. I I want to roll it back quickly to Spike 3, though, because I think there's two really important questions about Spike 3. one, there's no communication on what the deficiencies are of Spike 2 for anybody to give a [ __ ] about Spike 3. Like, what is better about Spike 3 that the current engine can't do? Is it that there's not enough processing power for animations? Like, I've been very critical about Stern's animation and their process for disconnecting of an art package on the screen versus the playfield. is there maybe an issue where like the way the animation assets are handled in Spike 2 is problematic and that's why they're changing it for Spike 3. We don't know. So, for there to be like, oh, we got like I don't care if a game is going to be on Spike 2 or Spike 3 because I don't know what the problem with Spike 2 is currently. True. I I've heard those things that they maybe they feel they can do they could go further with the animations thanks to Spike 3 and they could also animate more stuff on the play field all together and do more crazy things. But as you know this is marketing 101. You don't know what you don't have. And what they'll know is when they launch Spike 3, they will make sure you crave for it and you absolutely want to have Spike 3. I actually got one of my friends in France who's one on my podcast and stuff. He's a big chill for Spike 2 and whenever Spike 2 came out, he he he traded all his Spike ones because he just wanted to have the new things. Some people are just genuinely interested in only the new stuff. Why? I know that because it's the shiny new stuff. For them in their mind, it has to be the best of the best because it's the latest thing that came out. So, [ __ ] SP. Sorry for my my wedding. You can swear all you want. I just want to have Spike 2. And I know for a fact that he will do exactly the same thing same thing for Spike 3 when it comes out. And Stern will make sure to make us feel like, dude, if you don't have Spike 3, wow, you're outdated. you're outdated because Spike 3 can make so much more. So, don't you think it's strange that like with Insider Connect, they were starting to like build the hype for it kind of before it was released, but there's like no information about Spike 3 now? I don't This is a different conversation like are we does the consumer owed anything to be told about the potential development of a new engine inside of their pinball machine? Like Stern has no obligation to be like, "Hey, Spike 3 is coming out and here's the new features of it and whatnot." It would be nice, but like is does the company owe anything to the consumer for that? No, not at all. Like let's go back to Sony back in the 80s with the Walkman. Did they owe the audience? Do you know what they put in a Walkman? No. But they released the Walkman and they make you feel like you need a Walkman. Now there's a fine line between not telling what's what's in your kitchen and also creating some buzz, some attractivity. This is where the whole teasing campaign come from. So, and this is what those brands, to get back to the topic, have been very good at lately is starting to tease a bit more because you go back five years ago, you you barely had any teasers for for upcoming games. You had maybe a trailer the day before and then you had the the the reveal. Now, they they did teasing like weeks and weeks, even months before. So, I feel they're getting the sense, they're getting the marketing 101 lessons that you need to build up the uh the future FOMO as we talked about. You need to you need to build up something out of nothing. Oo, though you said such a terrible word and I think it's so much what Stern bases its its model around, but I think you what you said is really important that I think the pinball companies are currently learning how to market to the new generation of pinball purchasers. You have to understand that the pinball people that bought machines in the 70s and 80s, etc., were operators. They were arcades. They were not individuals. So there was really not a whole need, you know, they'd put out a flyer and a pamphlet, you know, and you can see a lot of this material available on the internet, which is awesome. Some of the art and, you know, literature involved in these advertisements to try to sell it to operators is really interesting historically. But now 70% or so of the of the pinball market are home oper or home players. Like now they need to tell the general consumer that to get them hyped to buy it. It it's not about an operator anymore. Yeah. Yeah. And there's also the social networks that didn't exist back in the days. So now people are expecting to get content flutter to their to their face all the time. So if you're a company, not even a pimple company, any random company, and you don't put content online on on social networks, people feel like you're you're gone or something's wrong with you or maybe you're going under. So pinball companies just like any company has figured out that they need to use social networks. And what how does that mean? That means they need to put content on. So they put trailers, they put teasers, they put little uh little uh uh contests, whatever. They need to occupy the space otherwise people tend to forget about them. So now there's been let's let's go back to the different companies because every single one of these companies has kind of approached the hype and the teaser concept a little differently. Yeah. Um, I mean we could use the most recent and I mean most recent recent being Predator did 10 or so AI generated hype trailers to try to build like hype for the game and I feel that generating hype is a necessary part of marketing but you you tell me because that's that's more your side of it. Yeah. So, you know, you have to you have to go back to the roots of each and every company we're talking about. So, we're talking about Pinball Brothers. First of all, they're in Europe. They're not on the main pinball territory. So, that's that's not a forte. Obviously, that's a weakness, so to speak, in terms of marketing. So, they have to overcome this first. First of all, so not being an American company means they need to build up the trust. And their last pins, whether it's been ABBA, whether it been Queen, uh, Alien, we know it's it's a redo of highway pinball. Uh the last two pinball machines have not been absolutely amazing. So if you're an American customer, are you really going to buy a a pinball machine from coming from from Europe? You don't even know where it is and stuff like that. So what they did is they're pretty they're brilliant. They're like, "All right, we figured it is not working. Queen was like so so alien is alien. Oh, alien kind of work because it's alien. So we need a dream thing. Predator is a is a dream thing." So first things first, they had to put all their marketing and salespeople to secure the license, the IP. That was probably the the hard same which is the same IP uh team as Alien. I had Daniel on the podcast podcast and he talked it's the same connections and he also sneaked out that the future pins that they're producing are also additional 80s kind of action themed pins. So they've they've dialed into their market and I think that that's smart but we're talking like how do you get people hyped on it now? Like okay Predators Predators and a pretty strong IP in my opinion. Some people don't give a [ __ ] and that's fine. I mean it's pinball themes are subjective. They're they're a skin but continue. Yeah. I mean, you know, for me it's not a dream theme, but it's definitely a thing you need to acknowledge. It needs to be reckoned with because it's it's a marquee action movie with TRI of the 80s. So, it is what it is. So, I think they they had the first step, right? And now they're like, how can we get that FOMO that that how can we build up the the trust for people overseas to buy our games from Europe? This is how they got into that crazy trailer campaign. And, you know, they they applied the basics. They're like, "All right, we got maybe 6 months to launch. Let's have a a new trailer every month or every 3 weeks or so." And they went through their through through their sheet, you know, it was it was it's very basic. The problem was that the other companies like Stern and JJP had some home runs in King Kong and and Harry Potter and and things. So, they had they have to battle this out. And this is the one thing that I don't get because yes, there are a lot of pinball companies. We we talked about it, but in the grand scheme of things, we're just still talking about only 12 to 15 companies in the whole world. I mean, they know each other. Can't they just, you know, when are you launching your next game? You know, okay, how about you doing April? All right, so I'm not going to launch mine until September. I understand there's jobs at stake and stuff, but why mess up your launch when you're in the middle of freaking King Kong versus Harry Potter? This is This is wild. This is in between companies is not beneficial for the hobby at all. Uh, I noticed that Spooky moved their normal broadcast date of Thursday onto Friday at the exact same time that Barrels was doing Carl's Dune pinball play launch and then offered a free game to get people to watch on it. Why? Like are you you're trying to lower the viewership on another company's game that so that people don't buy it? Like that this is not the move. Yeah, but Jeeoff, absolutely. And and especially if you're in Spooky's shoes, you see this new company Battles come in with with two really good games in Labyrinth and Dune like like for a new company to have these kind of games. I'll tell you what, Spooky Pinball 10 years ago, they weren't making those kind of games. So obviously if you're Spooky, you're like, well, they're they're definitely a direct competitor. They're taking our spot as the new challenger to the Sterns and and JJPs of the world. So So you're concerned. So if there's a stream with KL, who's one of the best players in the world, you're like, [ __ ] we don't want people to get excited about doing too much. How can we make All right, let let's just give out a free game that that will make sure we got people around. So, yeah, it's a tactic. Of course, that's that's target target the bigger companies. Do do people really just want two big pinball companies? Like, there's there needs to be more than just Jersey Jack and Stern Pinball in the pinball landscape. And to your point about how, you know, Pinball Brothers first couple of games, we're talking about Queen and Abba, not being amazing hits in terms of of players liking them to be straightforward and also for them to have kind of some manufacturing issues. Like I know a lot of operators had issues keeping those games up and running. So you're talking about building both brand like confidence and also to make sure that new people are not afraid to buy from smaller companies. If nobody's buying pinball machines from these small companies, they're going to go away. And you're not going to get Predator. You're not going to get Dune because JJP and Stern are not going to take those IPs on. These other companies are in a position to take on the different types of IPs that the major companies or major pinball manufacturers uh won't do. So like, you know, for people that want to [ __ ] on all these other companies and all these games that they're oh, I didn't want Predator, like ask yourself like, well, would you rather have no Predator? Like yeah, but do do you remember there was this Joe Camco post like a couple years ago because Stern was trying to get a Harry Potter and they you know it was and Joe Kamo had that post like oh the [ __ ] it JJP got it good luck to you and stuff like but to me it was still a surprise that a company like Pimple Brothers had Predator. I didn't expect them to do that. I thought it was a good lesson learned like okay we need to have a dream thing so to speak if you want to make sales we're not going to sell with Abas Abbas and and Queens. So they got that right, but still obviously there was those leaks on the day of the launch. So there was not even some gameplay videos. Why why can't they just bring a call or a Jack Danger or someone like that over it's just a plane ticket to fly to Europe and have the guy in the factory with a nice background and show in the best way of the world how you play a freaking good game. This is how you get people excited. Imagine Carlo or Jack playing like, "Oh my gosh, it's so good. I can do this and that." People be like, "If Jaco Car is having fun, I won that game." This is what you guys have been doing with barrels in June. Dude, Canada, which I'm gonna say that word here on the podcast. Canada himself said the exact same thing. They said he could have just bought a ticket for me to go over there to Pinball Brothers in Sweden and play the game. And there you have at least somebody that has some sort of polar or followership that can play pinball to a better level than the than Daniel. Sorry, Daniel, if you're watching this. He said himself in the in the gameplay video. He's like, "I'm not a very good pinball player." And as much as I appreciate that kind of honesty, you and I both agreed you have one chance to show off the game that you're going to present. So Jeff, funny story. Last week in Paris, there was the Paris International Air Show where we have like the equivalent of your all those we had actually an F-35 Lightning stuff. My dad My dad was an A-10 pilot, so I'm I'm familiar. Wow. All right. We'll have to chat about this later. So we had the Paris International Show and all those war planes were were flying over. Imagine you you have like your rubbish pilots like, "Sorry guys, I'm on the plane. I can't do much with the plane, but I'm still going to try and show you what the F-35 can do." Oh, I can't do much cuz I can't I can't So, I'm sorry. I'm going to lie. This is how this is actually the same. You need to put You put the best pilots in the best planes to show what to showcase what they can do. You need to put some great entertaining players. So, that's why I wouldn't put Canada. He might be polarizing and entertaining. He's not a great player. You want a guy like Carl or Jack who can be who can talk and can actually play well and make sure you see the everything about the game and makes you want to get that. I don't get why company like EPC, European European people company, you own Spinball Brothers are like we just buy back a plane ticket and it will make our game shine the best of light. This is easy. Yeah. You're looking at maybe $1,000 plus housing, $2,000 worth of an investment to sell many units of the game. Like this is like mindblowing that this cost seems insurmountable from a small pinball company when the reality is that that the pinball people that are pinball influencers, it's a it's a collaborative experience, right? Like they want to play the latest game. They want people to watch their stream because they have it on there. And the companies that are making this game want that to happen because it's advertisement for their game. What are they doing? [Music] Why? Why is this why is this not happening every release? You know, Jay, I have no idea. And year after year after year, you see the same mistakes being made or the same things not being made and you you don't understand why. So, something interesting switching to Stern. You've seen Stern over the last couple years flying some um American influencers from where they are in the US to the Stern to the Stern offices in Chicago to uh to see the new game. So, they haven't extended that to international. So, have I've been officially invited by by Zack Sharp, but they didn't not to the point where they would pay me a ticket. But I I appreciate the fact that now they they send emails to people who have like a bit of a fellowship and be like, do you want to come and see our launch in the first things first so you can tell your your your followers what you've seen. So, that's a nice step, but you're like, gosh, that's 2025, man. We've been doing that with brands for decades. And it's like pinball is just coming out of the ice in like, oh, oh yeah, we can do that. we can use those people. Still, they're not using us enough. I feel I feel we could do a lot more for those brands visibilities. I mean, I agree. I mostly just cuz I would love to play new games. But I think that companies like Stern and Jersey Jack are kind of like locked in their old habits of how they handle the release of pinball machines. And new companies are just like falling into those habits instead of taking the opportunity to look at the landscape. You said a really important word when we were talking earlier about getting market research. Like, yeah. How hard is it to go and get a nice snapshot of what pinball people want and then translate that into an effective marketing campaign? It's not expensive. It doesn't take a lot. There's plenty of people to be able to You can hire someone to do this job for you. If you can hire someone to work on your pinball machines, you can hire someone to do marketing for them. You've probably you've probably seen the series Madman. You know this comes agency in the 1950s in the US. This this is the whole focus group things, market research, going on the street and just ask people plainly what do you want? Has been done since the inception of times. They were doing that obviously in marketing in the 1950s. They couldn't even use interns to go out there in Chicago be like all right so we're a pinball manufacturer manufacturing company. You know pinball? Yeah. Right. Oh you've played medieval manage. Okay. That's a long time ago. What would be your top 10 things? What do you want? Oh, you want a karate kid or you want a Harry Potter or you want this or that? All right. All right. And and then you bring you go to your boss and like, you know what? 70% of people said they want karate kid. Imagine, oh wow, I didn't know that. Well, yeah, let's make a game because people buy themes. You can have the greatest pinball machine ever built. If the theme doesn't appeal to you anymore, in 2025, you're not going to sell. This is not the 80s and the '90s anymore when a no theme could sell. You can't you can't reproduce Fun House. You can't you can't have Attack from Mars again. I mean, you you can have it once, but that would be the exception. 99% of the time, if you don't have a theme, you're not going to sell in this day and age. So, why don't you go on the street and get the dream theme that people want and make those games? So, this is where you and I kind of differ a little bit here. And we talked about the difference between like tournament players versus, which I'm not a tournament player. I realize that I literally played in the tournament yesterday, but that's not like my thing. Uh, I I think that the theme is important as a skin to the game, but that the rules and how the shots like feel on the game is is more important, but to you that that experience of being drawn into that world under glass is more of of importance to you. Let me rephrase then. Um, let me rephrase. Um, yes, I don't think you're wrong. No, the the whole world in the glass thing for me is the most important, but I agree with you. We need to have the whole combo. We need the rules. We need the audio. We need the callouts. We need the the animation. Everything into a and it's as complex as it's ever been. So, for a game to be a great game in this day and age, it's very hard. It's really hard. Talk about Godzilla. They were able to get the rules, the code, the animations, the the world in the glass, everything. But it doesn't happen so often. I like what they've done with Dune. I like it. I like what they've done with Dune. I know the code is improving. I think the world in the glass is there. The theme is there. But where where I said I wanted to rephrase is we're talking about focus groups on the streets. Those guys, they don't know nothing about rules and stuff. They just want to be attracted to a machine and they will only be attracted to a theme they know. Why did Terminator 2 work in the first place? Because they so Schwrazzy on the translated to play this game. They didn't even know what the rules were. They probably didn't know how to play it, but they came to this because it was Shwuzzy. They got to Fun House because they saw Rudy was like, "What is that freaky little puppet?" So for for guys like you and I who play pinball a lot, we need those rules. We need the whole thing because I would say we're in the upper echelon in the sense that we know pinball, but any random people in the street, which is 99% of the population who doesn't care about pinball, what they will what will have them attracted to a machine is something they can recognize, acknowledge, something they know. So it's a theme. All right. So we're looking at multiple stages of of attractiveness of being sucked into a game, right? So you've got your top layer of like is the IP interesting? Is the art package drawing you in to actually walk up to the game? And then is the game going to keep you interested by having rules and shots that have a feel and and a flow that make you want to continue to play it? Whether that be for a short time in an arcade or a long time in a permanent home game. Uh I think that's like that that and the game being fun. I know Keith Owen's on record of of saying that like fun is every design decision that he makes is based around is it fun? Is the game fun? like he got rid of cycling inlanes uh mini games, you know, for like in lane bonus because it's it's too uh confusing for new players. They don't know to move it and it's too easy for advanced players. So, it doesn't fit either niches. So, none of his games have it. And I think that's a really interesting approach to that. Uh to reel it back though to marketing, right? Since you work in marketing, a pinball company has come to you and is like, "Hey, we have a new IP. We're going to make, I don't know, uh, Poooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo Banana Butt the pinball machine, and we need you to help us launch Poo Banana Butt. Where do you what does the campaign look like to you? How do you build the initial hype for it? How do you give a honest experience of what the game is like? You know, you talked about involving an influencer or having someone play the game. What What is the release timeline and and package look like for a properly released game? Yeah. So actually another great case study to to answer your question is actually barrels. The the way they promoted secretly their company for about a year or even more than a year before revealing themselves and launching obviously Labyrinth was was to me is a great case study. Do you remember how it was like for about a year and a half they would go on trade shows and they would leave some cards say saying in in the sense of something fun is coming out. So it they would implying that a new pinball company was coming but didn't reveal the name. They didn't say what it was. So I think that was a great way because all of us were kind of intrigued you know like wow something's just brewing in the background but we have no idea what it is. So I think that was a very healthy no cost kind of teasing about about a new company launching something. Then they launched Labyrinth which was very interesting because they put everything all together in the first place. Usually when a a young company starts they go through the growing pains. Uh this will work but this won't work. Everything worked. They had a theme that was something we acknowledged. Um, they had a world in a glass. They had an amazing topper, which that means all the artifacts around the game were already available. The the crazy shooter knob was available. The topper was available. U, they had a great booth at pinball expo. They had all the um all the people from Barrels had the t-shirts. They they were very corporate, very nice and friendly, but very corporate in the sense that they were they they were dressed in in barrels of fun. It looked like a company who belonged. It looked like a company who had been on the on the map for about five or 10 years. So to get back to Spooky, it took Spooky 10 years to get to that level of respectability. Those guys at Barrels of Fun, they got that respectability on that trade show on D-Day, which was amazing. And I remember talking to my guys and and also to guys from Stern and GP, they're like, "So what's that? What's that comedy barrel? Have you seen that brand?" I think, "Oh my gosh, it looks amazing. Oh, I got to go and see it." All the guys from Stern JJP wanted to go and convey to the booth to have a look because they were they were impressed. This was a way to launch a company and a game that was unheard of. We had never seen that before. But to get back to your point of the timeline, the timeline obviously is critical. So I would get back to what I said earlier. I would ring my 12 um co-arketing people in the other 12 companies like guys when are you launching your next game? Don't need to tell me what your next game is. When are you launching it? April, September. You usually launch in September. Are you doing this again? Okay. I would have a fairly correct view of the the panorama for the year ahead and I will try and be in a in a in a in a spot on the agenda where it's empty, where it's actually nobody's talking about pinball. So, step one is communicate with the other pinball manufacturers to try to find a release window that doesn't interfere with anybody else. Of course. Remember two a year and a half ago, it was Texas Pinball Festival. I think 2024, seven games were launched during TPF. Seven. Not helpful. Do you think that those companies are going to communicate that to each other? Well, they should because say you're one should is different than will they? I know. I know. No, but this is just about good sense. I mean, you go to TPF and you've prepared your launch and you see six other companies launching their own game and maybe there's better games than yours and you're stuck and you're like and then you got three months where nothing's happening between April and June because it's what happened. It was completely empty until the summer. So why don't you use that window when you can be the lone rat swimming and every every eyes is on you? As a followup to that, I will say maybe part one a don't be afraid to delay your game. You we see this with the software industry all the time. There game game companies have I mean look at GTA 6 or whatever that's coming out. There's so many game companies that were just like the release date dropped and they were like [ __ ] this like we're pushing our game a month or two because we're not going to try to release this when everybody's gonna want this new thing. So, okay. So, you're saying step one for transparent pinball marketing release is communicate with other sellers and also don't be afraid to delay your game if it steps on another release. But, but look at Stern. What they're doing, they're delaying their codes. That is crazy because Stern decides to have three or four launches per year. No less, no more. And so, they will go through their agenda no matter what. So, you say Stern's delaying their code. Well, you know, they launch games with code in 0.8. 83 84 86. So for sure I think Stern's major thing is to delay the code for as long as possible. Yeah, but that's a problem. That is a problem because if if Stern was a company in the 80s, they existed, but I mean that the Stern that we know now, not the modern version of Stern for sure. They would not release a game until Cody is 1.00. That would not be the case. Back in the days, those Adams family, Twilight Zone, all those games we love, it was almost as ready. the the you can't you can't update you can't update ROMs as easy as you can a software update over Wi-Fi or plop out an SD card and update it. Yeah, but the problem is we consumers and players um we take the grief for that because they can leverage the technology knowing they can upgrade anytime and so they're delaying their upgrades and you buy a game for 14 grand knowing you won't have the full version of code 1.0 until a year. I know guys who've sold their game three times in a year. I know guys who never have a 1.0 zero code from Stern because they they trade their games every 3 months, right? And they're always in code 0. So that that's another problem. So to get back to the to get back to the discussion, let's Yeah. So step two So step one is to try to find a good release time and a window for your game to come out and to to not be afraid to move it to a successful release date. Yeah. Second thing would be once you have your your your IP confirmed license, why don't you communicate about it? Why don't you create some engagement? Say I've got Predator. Okay. Uh I know I've got Predator. It's not a secret. It shouldn't be a secret. I know there's other other companies are going to launch other games. I want to make sure that they feel, oh my gosh, I want I want Predator because that's my dream theme. So, I'm not going to buy Harry Potter and Kong because I'm waiting for Predator. So, why wait to reveal that your game is this one? Because companies never say the game. They they don't even say a new, you know, a new game is going to come, but you only know basically a week or two weeks or 3 weeks before that it's actually going to be Predator. So, all right, that's a fascinating question. Why is this information secret? It's not like they're gonna It's not like they're going to say it and someone's going to be like, "Oh, surprise. I'm gonna buy it." Like those that person's already going to make that decision as soon as they know what the IP is. It's not like springing it on him is going to change their mind. Exactly. But look, Jeff, look at Hollywood. They they teased their their films a year before. You know, a year before that Star Wars coming next summer, you know, next year Jurassic Park is coming. You have a a six-second trailer that Jurassic Park coming next year. So, we're excited. We get excited. So, why don't you say our next game is Predator with a fancy 10-second trailer and then nothing for 6 months. Nothing. You just wait till the day, but people know you're coming with Predator and they get they're excited by your brand. Oh my gosh, this is the company that's got Predator. I can't wait to see it. But then you shut up for 6 months. You don't do a trailer every month because you just start to dilute the interest with every new trailer. You try to add another 10 seconds and people are like uh oh, did you see that? Oh, oh, I'm not sure. Why' you do that? Why do you give people ammo to criticize your game? I love this. All right, so step one, release it. Don't be afraid to move it. Step two, you do not need to hide your IP as if it is some secret code or secret like trademark thing like you can tell people what game you're making and especially if it's, you know, it's your dream theme, leverage it. Be proud of it. Be proud to announce you got better or something else. which every game that people work on, especially now that I'm recently working at barrels, like I I totally care. I want everybody that plays Dune to be like, "This is the coolest thing that I've ever played or they am hearing at least like people that work on the games are proud of them and they really are excited to be working on them. Even if they're themes they don't care about, they still want to make a great game." So, this whole illusion that people are trying to make you mad as a pinball person by sabotaging your pinball dreams, by making your favorite theme terrible, is just like, it's got to go. Step three. What is step three? Yes. Step three is is Dday. It's a bang. You need to have the killer video. You need to have the killer marketing materials, the killer flyers. You need to inund the space, all the social networks, the whole planet knowing you got the best game that's ever been made. All right, break down step three a little bit more cuz because marketing materials could mean every I mean you could send out EPK, you could send an electronic press kit to specific streamers. You could build a promo video of a different side. You can do a talking heads thing like Jersey Jack did of this. Not like insanely, but we're trying to I want to make a framework of like I want pinball manufacturers to jump to this part of this podcast and be like, "Hey, you know what? This is a good thing to hear and this could help change how games are mentioned and talked about. I appreciate Jeeoff. So yeah, of course going with the NDA thing and getting your top influencers so to speak to be have those informations ahead of times under NDA so that everything is released on their websites and their their social networks on D-Day men. They're actually doing this now. Stern's doing this. I was contacted by um Pinball Brothers a few weeks before to get the materials like the guys like Nap Arcade. We got that same Google Drive with a bunch of materials in it. Yeah, exactly. But it's still done in a way that's not very exclusive. You don't you don't feel like you have access to amazing outstanding materials. In my work, when I let's I work for Nvidia. When there's a new graphics board, a new uh GTX or whatever, I make sure under NDA to brief completely the journalist. So, he has his article in his review by the new GTX ready for D-Day. And when D-Day comes, he can publish it and it's as detailed as possible except for pinball news uh and and arcade as well. Uh we have access maybe to some interviews and stuff. I don't know. I feel like most people don't. So, it's more like a case of oh, we did it. Yeah, we shipped a few images to to everybody. That's done. So, it's a bit amateur hour a little bit. So that can be done in a much better way to um uh ignite your top 12 15 guys and make sure they they they have the in-depth article ready with the nice HD photos that put your game in the in the best of light. So that's that's something to do. You also want to set up those interviews so that those who are able to to show some video content can ahead of time. We saw that with Harry Potter with Ritual Ralph. He did a very nice feature it but I feel like he was sponsorized a little bit by JJP. I don't know. It felt a bit like that. But the content, we should talk about the JJP1 at the end cuz I think that's a really good use case of of things that were done good and things that were not so great, right? But in terms of the the the the look of it, it looked professional. It looked like it it's it's a great thing for GJ JJP. So, you'd want those content creators to to have access to that. When you see Stern flying people in the US, only in the US to the Stern factory, it looks like like Ben Camp a little bit. They got their backpack. They take some pictures. You got a few factory. It's It's great, but it looks a bit amateur-ish. You can do much better than that. Bit more pro. So, the whole the amount of effort to go from amateur to looking pro in terms of promo material stuff is like not a lot. It is a very small step for a graphics package and you know gameplay footage and stuff like the the kit that needs to be put together to to make a pinball machine look and be amazing for marketing materials is not big. No, no, no, it's not big. And to be to be fair, uh they've stepped up their game over the years. It's not where it should be, I believe, but it's still much better than it was even 5 years ago. So, I think those companies are on the right way. Definitely. And again, to talk you talk about the new companies doing some things. I feel like companies like Barrels with the way they've promoted themselves in the first place have influ the the old-timers like oh wow oh look look look what they do it's a bit different like they you you can go outside of the boundaries you can think outside the box as we say in marketing so also another thing those brands have started to have proper marketing directors whether it's it's Zack Sharp at Stern whether it used to be Ken Croml until recently at JJP this wasn't the case a few years ago they're staffing up They're a company with marketing people a bit more. Those guys know how it works and they're bringing those things. They also have the money to do that. And the margins for pinball machines for smaller companies do not leave that much of a room for that kind of budget, but the people that are running the companies are just having to do the extra leg work for it. But this is like hopefully the information for that. On that note, uh audio and slave says the Predator gameplay video with commentary was horrible. And I'm sure the guy commentating was exciting, but man, it sounded like he was green greening out and not interested. That's Daniel. That's the CEO of Pinball Brothers playing that game. And that's what's crazy is that like not only is like that not either communicated, but also it just shows that like why are you doing this? He self- acknowledged he's not a great pinball player. And as much as I understand culturally that delivery is like a little more mellow, that's more of a a cultural thing as instead of a marketing thing, but that's been criticized by a lot of people that that gameplay video is just like too chill. It's like Netflix and chill of pinball gameplay and it needs to be a little bit like you're selling a product, you know? I don't think it gives justice to uh people company to have the CEO uh play on the game. I know Stern's doing that with uh with Gary, but it's for fun. And we all know Gary is for fun when he puts his hands on the game and they do a couple pictures, but but Gary is not selling the game for you. But when you went Pinball Brothers and you're a young company, you still you're building that trust because you're overseas. It's complicated. And you have your own CEO who is not even a native English people trying to talk in English and he plays at the same time. It it's it's it's more complex. It's um they bring some difficulties to themselves that they didn't need they didn't need to. So step three is to build marketing materials and actually have a good presentation of the product that you are selling. Right. Yes. And and and and also very important that everything is launched on D-Day, not the day before, 3 days before, one day after because you feel like things are leaking. You didn't you don't know if it's leaking from the inside or the outside. But all these companies, there's some leaks right now. It's like it's amazing. Whether it's JJP, Pinball Brothers, everywhere you got a leak. It's like coordinated coordinated launch. Yeah. I mean, I remember visiting Stern and seeing that room and it was like forbidden to go inside. It was the room where they were starting to have the white woods of the new project. So, it's easy to shut a door and not leak it. It's not Keith Al who's going to leak his own game. So, you feel they're coordinating sometimes, not always. Some leaks because they they feel it's going to give them the edge. It's actually the opposite. They're shooting themselves in the foot. So, you don't need to do a factory tour to do uh a launch either. So, if you're worried about leaking material, like do it digitally. you do not have to invite streamers to your, you know, your factory. It's great to have that kind of transparency and give tours and whatnot, but if you're worried about leaking whitewoods of new potential projects or whatever, like don't do that then. Oh, don't do that. No, the the one thing that puzzles me is I feel those companies are struggling to have a proper reveal on each hour of D-Day. You know, it's coming on the 18th of June, but somehow on the 17th at 4 p.m. you have all the the blurry pictures and it's it happens all the time. So, I don't I don't understand that any dude. What about Jack's announcement of Harry Potter at [ __ ] TPF? Like, what the [ __ ] Oh, we all know it's Harry Potter. Yeah. Yeah. But you know what? He he had a pass on that. Not not the way he did it, but everyone wanted Harry Potter. This is the was probably the ultimate dream theme thing that we never thought we'd have because we all know the story with JK Rawlings not wanting to blah blah blah. So even if he were standing up on a on a table and seeing it in the words the most plain voice, it still would sell. People like, "Oh my freaking god, it's actually coming." And from JJP, he had a it was a home run regardless of how you say that. But if you're going to try to do a coordinated launch, like involve that part in it. You can easily say like, "Hey, like yes, everybody knows Harry Potter. We're working on it." And be like, "He did. He was like, "I can't wait to see it." Like save your money or whatever he said. It was just there was something so strange about it that like I know I remember coordinated. You know something Jeff? Uh that's that's a question I want to ask you know Ken Cromo left JJP but whenever I see him next probably at expo I want to ask him but I be I will tell him this. Um Ken you were at JJP when Jack did this sort of came out and then say this how did you react as the P person because that was I heard that wasn't planned at all. He just came out of his own way and just said and he said some things like yeah you will see uh it will did you like Wizard of Oz it will be exactly like that as much so we all thought it was going to be a white body because he promised so many things in it and and I mean the game looks amazing don't you know don't get me wrong but he just said so much things I wonder on a PR standpoint how did they do the damage control after this like Jack what happened we told you not to say it and you did and we're not ready I don't think they were worried just based on the acted as Harry Potter. They were just like, "The game's going to have its own it's going to have its own marketing legs based on word of mouth." And at that point, they just don't give a [ __ ] Absolutely. Absolutely. All right. So, what are we stage part four, part five? All right. So, we've got day and we've announced a marketing campaign. What's step five? Yeah. So, so now the game's out. All the marketing materials on the social networks. Everybody knows. And now people are just going to go blah blah blah blah. I love it. I hate it. It's great. It's horrible. Okay. Now, you can't control that. And you have to stick to your guns because you're always gonna have the haters, the naysayers, but you have to trust that you have an amazing product because you've you've worked for this for like a year or two. Okay. So now you have to do it's the post launch. You need to make sure that this game goes in the hands of the people that will give justice to it. So, you want Carl, you want Jack Danger, you want the guys that will make it look or play even better than it actually is because those guys are fun. They're entertaining. We know they play well and they can get the most out of the game. In 30 minutes, it will get you to some levels that average Joe on the street can't even get you to. So, you won't get excited. Make sure this game shines in the bright light. That's audio enslaved also said, you know, he mentioned Joel and Jared from Flipping Out. I think it's also good to give it to streamers that are also distributors. Like, why would you not want someone who's streaming it that you can that can actually sell the game immediately if people are interested in it? True. True. I mean, they're doing a great job. I mean, there Yeah, it's it's good. I mean, not to plug them. I'm just saying like if you were if you want someone to sell your game, it would be convenient if the person that's showing it off could also have the ability to sell it in case people are interested just on on the basis of actually moving units. Um, all right. So, don't don't [ __ ] shy on supporting the game post launch. you need to continue that momentum after you've released an amazing press kit, after you've delivered the game to people that are going to show it off in its best light. Do we talk about do we talk about code updates now? Like what's what's step six? Yeah. So, the code is a problem in itself because as we've talked previously, uh companies, they just throw their games out there and the code is not ready. So, it's deceptive. People are like, uh, wizard mode is not coded. Uh, the audio is not synced up. Uh, so wouldn't step one kind of resolve some of this though? Because if they're not trying to rush if they're not trying to rush their game out and they know that they have a window that other games aren't going to step on, doesn't that give a company the potential to plan to have the code at a certain state for launch date? It it should be, but I I do believe that the whole code issue should actually be addressed. Look at JJP. When the game comes out, it's as close as possible to 1.0. You're usually on 90.93 94. So what you see is not exactly what you're going to get but as close to what you're going to get and that is satisfying and like like we said although it was a time of the epsoms is how the valley Williams games used to be. You you had what you had but Stern has launched that sort of um habit of we're getting the habit of not not having a finished product when the games launch and we all know that it's going to be deceptive. This going to lead to critics. Look at X-Men. X-Men is an amazing layout by Jack Danger. one of the most innovative and creative layouts of the last 10 years, I believe. Jack is an amazing designer. But the game has been killed so far, so far by what the code was. And of course, you saw last week they decided to take it again. It's going to be much better. And I I've heard people who've played the new code. They're like, "Oh my gosh, it's a great improvement." It's But I'm not going to say it's too late. It's never too late. You can have a second or a third career. But why mess up your first launch? We said earlier, you have one chance to make one good first impression. Why don't you do that? Why don't you just kill a great layout with a code that's not ready? I don't get it. They're they're abusing the consumer faith that the game will get there eventually and then pushing their FOMO process where people have to buy the game in their mind because they believe that they'll be missing out on something. Joe brought up a really good point here. Joe the Dragon says that they need to get it out there for more wide testing. I mean like software has the ability of doing a beta launch where they can put out whatever hundred thousands of versions of the software or to give that version of that software to people to find out where the problems are. Pinball Machines is a 400 lb dead piece of weight. It's a little harder to do that. Oh, damn it. There's ads coming. Hold on. Silly alarm sound. We got 2 minutes until there's ads. Ads. Uh, so how do you how do you get the game properly play tested by a wider audience without getting the hate that your game is unfinished or whatever? Yeah. So that that that's a very critical question because back in the days again going back to the 80s and 90s uh in Chicago people like Pat Lauder and and and Joe and Joe Demar and Larry Demar sorry they would put the games in a few arcades and they will see how people react. I know a famous story from Pat Lauder. He said, "We were testing Fun House. We didn't we we think we had a hit, but we were not sure at all because it was very innovative. He had the first animatronics thing. They put it in in one arcade for a Saturday and Larry Demar and and um and um Pat Lauder were just sat in the background and they just saw people, girls and boys coming be like, "Huh, what's that head? Oh, that's spooky. That's freaky." And they would all be attracted to look at it. They wouldn't necessarily put a coin in it, but they will all come across and look at it. And you know what? Pat turned to Larry Dear and said, "Dude, we got a hit." They knew it because they field tested it. That's an amazing story, but you can't do that now. If somebody put a game in an arcade that was like a secret, it would be all over the goddamn internet in like minutes. So, how can someone play test it without like exposing the reality of what the code is in that current state? So, what you want to do is if I were if I were that company because this is why you asked me earlier. I would I would call Carl and I would call Jack. Let's get with these two guys. We know they're great players. I'll be like, "Guys, I'm going to fly you over. You're going to sign an NDA. You can't take any pictures. Uh, you have to leave your phone at the entrance. I want you and I'm going to pay you and I want you to freaking test that game to the end of it and I want you to tell me everything that's that's right or wrong." This is what kind of they do. But the problem is they do it in-house with people who are in the house. Like at Stern, Keith will call Brian who's going to call John Borg be like, and they're all like, "Oh, it's a great game. Oh, maybe I would do that." Which is great. It's fantastic. But how about you got to break you got to get out of the bubble. the the the filter the filter of internal team feedback is not like someone who's outside of that company is not going to be afraid to say something that could be potentially hurtful to someone's feelings or they may just see something that you just aren't aware of because you've been heads down in the development of it. Yeah. And also because eventually it's a product that needs to be sold. So you need to have someone who's an total outsider and see how he reacts to something shiny and new that's presented in front of him. Because if you're John Borg and Brian and you've already been called up on three times or four times the last two weeks to check if the ramp is working, you're like, I know he's working on new Metallica. I know it. But if you're Johnny Good and you're just a random player and and you're like, ta, you send an NDA and you don't have your your camera be ta new game. Oh, or like okay. You can see immediately by the behavior, the non-verbal language if he's attracted like he like when he was attracted to Fun House. Those guys didn't play Fen House, but Larry Dear and and and Poller knew they had a hit just by the way people's eyes reacted to Rudy like h even what those who were spooked were like we got a hit because the way they reacted. You need outsiders for that. So Joe Joe also says that you know you got to test it with non-pro players as well. I I think that that's less of an issue just because the people that are developing pinball machines, they're not necessarily the best pinball players. I know that you want to believe that every single person that works at a pinball company is like the top 100 IFPA. That ain't the case. Look at Pinball Brothers as a perfect example. Daniel, the CEO, is the one that played the gameplay for Predator. That is an average player. Sorry, Daniel. Uh it's just that's the reality. So, it's easier to have access to players that are average than it is players that are like aliens like Carl. Who's mean to me, by the way. He was mean to me when he came over and played Attack from Mars. He was a big jerk and he's such a sweetheart, but something about being on the stream, he's just a big He just razed me left and right. But it worked. We got to rule the universe four times in one game. So, proofs in the pudding, you know, man is absolute maniac. Yeah. Well, that's uh you know, I think the hobby is glad that we got guys like that who can not only play well but explain well as Yeah, Carl is an incredible resource to every pinball manufacturer and it's a shame that like you said it's people like Carl and it's not just Carl. There's plenty of players that are really good that have good streams that would be excellent like platforms for this opportunity, right? Um, and I think that the way you frame this out is is so clear and obvious that I hope that any pinball manufacturer that is watching this video even takes a small amount of this process to heart and maybe changes how the pinball release process is is done. You know what? It's not complicated and we're not trying to reinvent the wheel. You just have to look at any launch of any product that's mainstream and see how those guys do it and just apply those rules. It's just it's just again it's basic. It's very basic. It's It's like because you work in marketing. Yeah. But it's maybe the fact that our hobby is a niche hobby and they make they make it niche marketing as well. Trying to do things a bit different. But again, it's more like um in French we say do bons. I'm trying to find a translation just uh do the things how it's supposed to be. Like you know, you don't want to uh you don't want to overflood in the days before. You want to make sure there's no leaks. You want to make sure the right people have the the game. You want to make sure your code is ready. just just basic stuff, man. Just don't give ammunition to people to to be like, "Ah, I told you. Ah, and look and this and that." This is what's happening. There's too too many naysayers, but they have the ammunitions to be naysayers because we we feed them the Anyway, no, I mean, it's true, but also like you say like just, you know, do the NDA, don't break, it's easy, blah, blah, blah. But like, you know, that that retailer broke the NDA by releasing that footage of Pinball Brothers uh whatever the of uh Predator without permission. Like what are they going to do? Sue him? Like that doesn't help anybody. And it's not like you want to start that kind of like That's bad. That's bad. Actually, the word I was trying to use is common sense. You you need common sense. Sorry, I was looking for that word. But yeah, I mean, you're talking about you're a distributor, so you're official and you actually baked the game. It's just there should be a penalty for it. You can't just let it go. would not give that distributor access to the game in the future, but then okay, now you're losing whatever potential sales that that distributor would do. That's just I don't I should probably know this, but that distributor if they didn't know that that was okay, like if they thought it was okay for them to release the footage, that's different. But if they released that footage like with the intention of trying to get extra hype for their particular company so that they could sell it, like they've done a disservice to both Pinball Brothers and their own business. Like that's [ __ ] They screwed up huge. Yeah. And now Pinball Brothers has to make excuses for it. Exactly. Plus, what they did was like to release it the day before. So, it's it's irrelevant. It's not like they're going to get all the sales. It's the day before. So, well, it's it's a moot point. Why' you do that? I don't get it. So, this all this tells me one thing. Those companies are progressing. They're on the right path to becoming professional, but it's still a little bit amateur hour in terms of marketing. They can do so many things much better if they had just common sense. Talk to people on the street what they want. Have people test it before. No, no, no. Just just make it work. Make your launch a success. It's not complicated. But then again, you see sometimes a great Harry Potter launch and I think everybody agree that it looks like it looks it's amazing. But one thing about one thing about Harry, let's talk let's talk about Harry Potter. Let's talk about Retro Rouse video and and the launch for Harry Potter. The thing about Harry Potter, and I'll start with that, is the game has been sent to the content creators. So, they're achieving it. We know that they receive the game. So, they're like, of course, they're going to say, "Now the real deal comes from JJP." People like you and I, people who play games are going to get those games and be like, "Okay, this is what I really think about the game." And now we're getting to phase two where the real feedback on JJP is going to come out. Is it really a good game? Is it No, no. Honestly, I got a good feel about that game. Uh, it usually doesn't take me. Have you played it? Have you played it yet? I haven't played it. What What's your What's your take on it? I've played two games on it over 5 minutes at on tilt and uh it's congested in the back. It's pretty minimal layout for a Jersey Jack game, but it flows really well and there's a lot going on with ball paths in a way that make it feel really exciting. I think a lot of people have complaints on the code. I I'm not getting one. So, I'm not going to be able to go deeper into that. Like, if it's in League, I will play it. But I think it's going to be one of their best games. It's fun. It's fun like Elton John was in terms of how like flowy it is. Uh, and it has so much Harry Potter stuff going on that it'll probably appeal to a lot of the people that love Harry Potter. It It's a good game, but when does Jersey Jack put out a game that's just a straightup turd? Like all of their games are like okay to good at worst and okay to good also at best which is my personal criticism with JJP. I've never played a game from them that's just been like holy [ __ ] like this is you know a Godzilla or you know a Jurassic Park like the whole package you mean? Yeah. Right. Uh well you make me happy with what you say because first you said it's packed at the back. I like that. I like when it's packed at the back. I like when it's flowy. So that means the first twothirds of the play field need to be empty to get the flow. I like that. I like that there are a lot of pathways. It's fantastic. There's mechanical issues. The staircase broke within a week at Ace. And also the uh there's a special switch that's kind of like a it's it's not a full gate, but it's like a like a like a spear that detects when the ball comes in from the out lane cuz the like protect target, which is the clear target that pops up from the out lane to allow the ball to go through. It doesn't pop up every time and it's supposed to be as it if it has enough speed in the out lane. It just like jumps over this gap and immediately on the other side of the gap there's this little spear switch that you know lets the game know that the ball has made it across the gap. That mechanism hasn't functioned 100% on location. But is that an problem? Probably not. But that is concerning and this is to my point like now we're going to have the reflection of those issues which we didn't have with the content creators right now because they were all chilling because they had the game for free, right? Nobody's going to say that kind of [ __ ] if they're given the game. Yeah. No, I know. I know. But but that's a shame though because they they're talking to an audience who's going to have to pay 12 or 14 or 16 grand for a game. That's a lot of money. That's a That's a small car money. You owe them the truth. I agree. I think if you were given Sorry, go ahead. I'm just getting hyped up because I totally agree with you and I want to talk about how much I agree with you. I'm not talking about a a $150 product. you talk you people are going to put five freaking figure on something that's a toy they need to to know the truth so if a mechanism is weak it's not doing it justice to the company like oh what an [ __ ] no I mean it has to be reported hence going back to the field test that we talked before because they would know that this is a problem right