hey what's going on pinball and welcome it's a special edition of the flipping out pinball podcast with us today greg we've got some very special guests some very special guests and they're from barrels of fun we've got david david's here David Van Es carl d'Python Anghelo uh we're going to share something a little bit special with you today. We're going to be speaking about the Winchester Mystery House Pinball Machine, brand new pinball machine from Barrels of Fun. David David Van Es is the CEO of Barrels of Fun. Carl D'Python Anghelo, you know him from pinball fame, big time pinball ambassador, extremely world renowned competitive pinball player, and also the lead designer on the Winchester Mystery House Pinball Machine. Gentlemen, welcome to the show and thanks for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Honestly, you know, this is the celebrity right here this is this is the rock star so i got a feeling it was a team effort oh it is definitely a team effort always yeah but uh it's one of those things of when you see talent out there you gotta go and get it one of the bigger questions that'll be on everybody's mind right now is winchester mystery house explain to us how that popped into your head how you thought that that would be the theme that would be the next big hit for Barrels of Fun? So what everyone kind of needs to understand is, I guess, the history of our relationship with the Winchester Mystery House. Before Barrels of Fun became a public company to everyone, we were gathering up, talking to different licenses about what we could do on a timeline for barrels of fun and i've had a lot of meetings with a lot of different studios and licensors and so forth like that and a meeting i took was one company that actually handled the winchester mystery house and we're talking about different ips and they were like i wasn't even looking at winchester as an ip and they said well what about winchester and i'm like i'm i'm a i'm a horror kid I like supernatural stuff. I like spooky stuff. And as a pinball collector and someone who's into that genre, a haunted house pinball machine has always been on my list to do someday. And it instantly piqued my interest because if you know the lore of Winchester Mystery House, it is very deep. um just a little brief history of the winchester mystery house sarah winchester um is the widow of the um fortune of the winchester uh gun company and she lost her daughter and her husband very quick secession in the 1800s and she at that time spiritualism was really really big and she went to see a spiritualist and that person basically told her to move out west because every person that was killed by a winchester firearm was basically coming after her she the winchester family was cursed so she took all her fortune moved out west and as she kept having more communications with the spiritualist it was like you need to build a house you need to keep building a house to confuse the angry spirits that are coming for you. And that was where the law started. That's basically, you know, there's stories of she built a, you know, she would stay in a different room every night so the spirits would not find her. She would have seances every night from 12 to 2 a.m. So, you know, and then when you start looking at pictures of this magnificent Victorian house, you know, it started out as a little farmhouse in the middle of San Jose and like stairwells going up into ceilings, doors that fall to nowhere. It's just, it is really insane. It's just whatever they could do, she just kept building. And even to this day, when we're touring it, they will still find, well, they don't find new rooms, but they find new maps and drawings of different things that they were doing. Or if they take off something from the wall, it'll be different wallpaper. her it's it is a it's an experience to go there and just see what she did in her life so hearing all that knowing all these stories it instantly sparked an interest in me as a creative storyteller and so it was always in the back of my mind of that'll be really cool to do as a game um and then So as Barrels of Fun started to become more of what we wanted to do down the road, we always thought about multiple different titles we could do as a company. We kind of have three categories. We have Tier A, Category A, which would be a game that we are pretty confident is going to blow everyone away. Tier B is an IP that we know it would do okay. It could be an A, but it's a little bit more risky. but we think it's a very compelling story to do in a pinball format. And then we have category C. That game should not exist. That game, we believe we can tell a very unique story and a pinball experience in that world. And that's where kind of Winchester fell into. It's an IP that we felt would make a very interesting story, a very compelling gameplay. But where did that fit into our category? Because if you know Winchester, you know it really well. If you don't know Winchester, you have no idea what it is. So it's always been in my back pocket because they kept hitting me up like, David, you need to do Winchester. I was like, look, you know, I'm starting a company. I need to make sure I've got IPs that I know will keep feeding the company. I mean, we're 30 people now. I've got to make sure I keep the factory running. And they kept badgering me and badgering me. Well, not really badgering, but kept knocking on my door. So that led to us going to a hack. to the house, doing a tour, seeing all this wonderful stuff. And I got wind of Carl was doing a Whitewood game, just a pinball machine. And I had multiple people. One was Shane from Ace Goge. I'll call him out because I need to give him some credit. And then I also saw him on the Fast Slack, shout out to Fast Pinball, is he was working on a Whitewood. So I was like, two rumblings, he's actively making something. and I've always been a big fan of Carl and i.e. Pimble. I mean, when you want to know how to play a game, if you want a tutorial, you go to Carl's streams. So in my head, I'm like, if he's that passionate about it, I want to know what he's doing because Barrels of Fun exists because we have amazing people working for us. They are extremely talented and I want to give them the power to do the best they can do. so with the team that i already have what if i can talk to carl find out what he's doing and give him the resources of the company to build a game that he wants with all his experience of playing and rules and knowledge what could he do if i gave him the keys to the barrels of fun so and i really apply this i make such long stories out of short ones we'll slip that and And when we met with him, so we went to Winchester, we came down to Los Angeles, and he brought a video. He showed us his whitewood and everything he was doing and the IP he was doing it towards. Let me ask you this, David. How does that conversation go? Does Carl know at this point that you might be kind of coming after him for a potential opportunity, or you guys are just hooking up because you just want to see what he's working on? No, it was just explore and see if I wanted any involvement in the company and see, you know, what role I would want to take, really. So there was nothing when I first met you, there was nothing really, you know, you're going to be working on this or, you know, going to do rules or design or there was no idea. It was just we were going to just kind of see how I fit in and how things worked out, basically see what role fit me best. Did you have aspirations to do that, you know, prior to David? I mean, look, you've been involved in the industry and in the hobby and the competitive scene and the streaming scene for so many years. You have almost your own personal brand going at that point. Is working with a major pinball manufacturer something that that you were pursuing or was on your radar? And if was there any hesitancy and kind of crossing over into that into that realm? It was it was on the long term radar. So I was working on the my with thinking that it could be a potential retirement plan. I still have a day job, so this isn't even a full-time job for me. This is my side gig. So the idea was build the whitewood, get a game ready, and then when I'm ready to retire, I could show that game off to manufacturers and see what would happen with that. It just all came up a little faster than what you thought it was. A lot faster, yeah, a lot faster. Well, when I get passionate about something, I kind of don't let go. I'm going to pursue it the best I can. So it was like, so he came over to our little Airbnb we had and showed us his Whitewood and told me the IP. And I was like, okay. So I, cause again, I would, we, I would like to get the IP for him, but it's one of those IPs that is potentially very difficult to get ahold of. Um, I was impressed with what he had done. And like you said, it was like, well, if you were thinking about doing this, cause you obviously have a day job, like where would you want to fit in? And that's when we were just talking about stuff. And then it came down to, well, what licenses do you, like this is the license pool that we have. And again, this is all prior to everything before we even become public. At this time, we were public, but the licenses we had secured were all prior to us coming out on Friday the 13th to 2023. And it was Dune and Winchester and a couple others I can't talk about. um and as soon as i said winchester he was like oh winchester mystery house and i was like you like haunted house stuff and he's like yeah because he's a big thing park guy um i'm a big thing park guy and it actually turns out we were in the same forums in the late 90s early 2000s in like westpark.net and um theme park review you know i didn't see him personally but yeah he was actively in that community of theme park enthusiasts and and haunts and stuff like that so um yeah it was kind of interesting on that aspect so so carl for you with this kind of being thrown on you was there any hesitation or anything moving forward were there any you know pitfalls was as expected was it rougher easier than what you thought it was going to be nothing's ever as easy as nothing's easy in pinball let's just get that you know that's a common phrase everyone says uh it was me learning a whole new set of skills really i had never dealt with solid work so at that very first meeting i remember paul uh actually mentioned oh you should learn solid works and figure that out and so right after that i began starting an online course and teaching myself how to use solid works had an educational version that uh just to start learning the trade basically was there anything from your your original whitewood was there anything that you were kind of working on any ideas that you'd already had you know kind of conceived of that that made its way over into winchester this is a completely different game than what my other whitewood was nice so no ideas really transferred over with all the games that you've played over time i would imagine that you've realized that there's some pinch points within pinball design maybe ways that you thought could be approached a little bit differently um or maybe improved upon or maybe just engineering something completely different. Do you have a design core or design philosophy that is kind of within you that you instilled in this game, or is that something that you feel as a designer you'll start finding your way as you go from game to game, assuming that you're looking to do another game? Yeah, I am. I think we'll be maybe doing stuff. um it's i'd say overall what i design philosophy i have is like if you have an upper flipper shot i always want multiple ways to feed that flipper and so that that kind of you know thinking of the geometry of a game i don't want anyone to be locked out on a certain area of the game this game has four flippers in it so i want to make sure that the upper two flippers you had different ways to feed the ball to it um just to give the variety and give the often so you're not stuck on just a single shot and make it accessible to all players, hopefully. That's always the goal. At least my goal was to make the game accessible so that anyone could step up and understand it and be able to flip it and find all the shots. David, when you were considering Winchester, what was going through your mind? Were you looking to make something that was more horror-based and more sinister? Were you looking for something that was a little more family-friendly? It seems like from what we're seeing right now, there's a delicate balance there that offers a little bit of both. How do you How do you approach that? And what was your creative vision going into it? And how do you think the end project, you know, matched up with what you originally had in your head going into it? Well, the first thing is making sure what Kyle's vision is, is what we we go with. And then it's my job to make sure that, again, like barrels, we want to do IPs that can obviously very much appeal to the pinball community, but also potentially reach outside of that. so like with the winchester brand it's like so visually it's very i wouldn't say family friendly but it's eerie it's something that a kid i don't think is going to be scared of and they can walk up to it but we're definitely going to take them up to pg-13 like oh this is going to get intense and they may get scared so it's that we're trying to create a world where it feels safe it's approachable but you're still going to get the you know the jump at you you know like it's a fine balance of how do we get it appealing to a mass audience and then suck them into that story and then they deep dive into the rules that he basically is set for it which is honestly a very smart move i mean you guys you've probably heard and seen people you know there's some people that won't even put you know particular games in their house because they're a little too eerie or spooky for people and stuff, you know, a little too mature for them. So, you know, I think that, you know, like you said, walking that fine line, that delicate balance so that you can find, you know, that it can go into everyone's home, but still kind of retain that nice, creepy, spooky, fun, you know, initial haunt aspect that you guys wanted. I think it's awesome, man. I think that that's a good direction. Greg, you want to hear something creepy? Yeah, always. so uh first of all when we were working on it the uh the winchester mystery house folks like do you want to put a piece of the house in every game oh and like i'm well thank you appreciated david we're out of here thanks for joining us i'm out that's like i already see the aura and the haunt behind there might be a figure behind them all right i know something's going on but like like like instantly i think we're both thinking like man we need to get like that'll give us the wallpaper yeah like to put into the game and we're like this is this would be as a collector and if someone likes this stuff like dude this is like marketing like this is awesome and then they started telling us the stories of people that have stole stuff from the house from the filmmakers that made the winchester movie like they gave pieces of the house to the producers and the directors and the actors all that stuff came back within six months and none of these people really do believe in horror so it's like the collector of me is like we got to do this the manufacturer side of me is like i don want any of these games like like i can afford to have every game sent back to me So yeah it like I don necessarily believe in the supernatural I mean, yeah, it's just there's a creepy story for you, Greg. So if you want a piece of the house, let me know. I will send it over to you. It's one of those better safe than sorry aspects. So but it's that fine line, right? And that's what we want to do with this game. We want people to feel a little bit uneasy. The music is very soft. It fits the era and you're playing it and you've got this nice tour guide. And I'll let you tell the story. But the whole point is like, let them go and explore. The Winchester Mystery House as it stands today and how it stood after she died and sold the house on to another family was to allow people to hear the story and explore this unique house and all like the architecture in this house is amazing. But it's haunted. I mean, this house is the inspiration for so many other haunted houses around the world. Even attractions like Haunted Mansion all take inspiration from this one house. This house, when you talk about haunted houses, this is probably the top five in the world. So that leads me into my next question. And as the player, Carl, when I go up and I hit the start button, what is my role in the game? Right. You're a tourist and you have a tour guide right away. And he tells you, he asks you, what room do you want to explore? So you are choosing your path through the house and choosing which rooms to visit. And each room has a spirit or something in it. So the story arch, what is the overall story arch, not the rules? Yeah, the overall story is you walk in the house. You're locked in the house, and there's a spirit, Henry, in the house that's controlling all the spirits. So you want to free the spirits and then evade Henry, get away from him, and try to escape the house. So it's like your modern day you're there. It's not that you were living in the time of Sarah Winchester. It's a modern day pinball machine. You're there in the modern times, correct? Right. However, we do have aspects that we've pulled in from the past. Like in 1906, the San Francisco earthquake hit and destroyed a lot of that house, including a tower that they had on site that was seven stories tall. The tower fell partially and then they dismantled it after the earthquake. But we put it in the game. You can see in the back glass, actually, on the on the right side of the house, you can see this ghostly figure of a tower. And then inside the game, we have the tower in it. So we will have a mode where there's an earthquake and the tower will fall. Yeah. so again it's almost like like how we had brad Brad Albright approach the art the whole point is you know people are attracted there to the story of the seances and and the spiritual side of it so like when you look down the playfield you know having the uh the crystal ball in front of you and the spirits coming out from that it's like you're exploring the history the stories like the wheelbarrow ghost in the basement you know that's a that was a real person that lived with sarah like she had i think like 20 plus families i don't know the exact number but she paid for families like the work is there they she paid for those families to be there and to basically you know obviously work for her but like there's so many people and characters attached to this this legacy and it's like we wanted to honor that and their little stories inside of that and obviously there's we make up a lot right we did make up a lot of the stories of course yes well it seems like the main feature obviously is the house, the Winchester house. And in the back of that pinball machine, you've got a massive sculpt and you have something that's extremely impressive that's embedded and integrated within that sculpt, which is kind of that that Pepper's Ghost holographic looking display. Could you talk a little bit about what the idea was for the concept of that and why you thought that was important to put there? Well, we wanted to have the ghosts on the game physically somewhere. So we worked through several different iterations and landed on this once we got the right size screen and just fit right in the back so the ball can still pass underneath the images in the Pepper's Ghost box, but we could still surround it with the Winchester and make it look like the Winchester's alive, basically. It seems like lately pinball enthusiasts, pinball buyers, they're looking for something new, something fresh. There's like a wish list that people have to see modern day pinball integrate into the games. And that Pepper's Ghost effect, where I've seen it done before, I've never seen it done like that in this machine. I mean, it's massive. It's substantial. Are there any other ideas that were implemented in this game where you might have considered some community feedback and the community wish list and what they're looking for in a new pinball machine? I mean, it wasn't, I wouldn't say I went over a wish list when I was designing it, But it's all stuff that I've always wanted in games and just, you know, the multiple paths, just diverters on most shots. You know, the ball paths should always change and be fresh. Again, our philosophy is always how can we take this IP and make the best pinball weld? It's like going back to Labyrinth. No one was asking for Labyrinth and pinball. But when you look at the story and the overall of how it's approached, it makes the perfect pinball weld. So when you talk about Winchester, I mean, even if we just was doing a haunted house, I mean, this has labyrinths of corridors and rooms that you can explore, which perfectly translates into pinball. And then like with the Pepper Ghost, it was like everyone goes, well, you got to have the LCD on the play field. Like that's your signature move. It's like it's not a signature move. it is like if the game needs a lcd on there to tell a story to have it interact and make it a personal experience that's why we use it so like again yes we have an lcd on the playfield but it's not there because it's our signature anything it's there how can we have the player experience something new and different so like again when we take an ip on it's like we don't i mean obviously there's little things that we've experienced in our past of game toys and features that how can we use that in a new fresh way but story and gameplay is always first like how can we tell the story that we want to tell and make it a community experience how can we get people excited about playing the game again you may not know what winchester is but when you see the game and the features in it you want to experience that story no matter what it is and that is the foundation of what's important to us well and honestly to me what you guys are are known for the best is just the the integration of the theme everything you guys have done like you said with labyrinth labyrinth if you guys wouldn't have created the world that you did i don't think would have nearly been the success that it was and the same thing with dune i mean there's very little that i think that could ever rival what you guys were able to do with that game and how you integrated the clips and integrated you know the certain scenes and aspects of that film all cohesively into a pinball machine with lighting toys mechs the lcd and so you know it very much seems like that that's what you guys did with this but had even more free reign to do what you wanted i mean it's scary what the the license holders allowing us to do i mean this will literally be So just so for this game alone, we have growing, growing our team by at least four people. So we have multiple animators. Now we have multiple engineers. We hired Luke Underwood, who is the, uh, the guy that made the Pokemon pinball machine, uh, the homebrew piece. He'll be taking that game to actually Chicago this year. Cause he's been working on that. Like we have grown in this. You got to remember all, everything you've seen right now, including this game was what we consider phase one of barrels of fun. This was setting the foundation to allow us to tell very unique stories in the pinball platform. And you talk about how we want to tell stories. All these games have led up to other licenses seeing what we're doing. Like, I can't wait for you guys. I'm not trying to oversell, but you have no idea how excited we are with now that the studios trust us and to see the level of detail that we're doing in our games, the roster that we have coming up, like I know we'll get criticized for like, this is essentially an original IP, but you wait to see what else we've got down the road. Like, again, this is all about how I can empower some of the most creative people I know in different areas of expertise to create a unique pinball experience. With the Winchester game, You've limited this to 525 games. I find that interesting. Is there anything in particular that was behind the decision to make it so limited and in today's pinball climate, very collectible? So why do we choose 525? I can't remember. It's the street. The house is literally 525 Winchester Boulevard. I mean, there are other numbers that we're thinking about going to, and I had some very good marketing friends say, do not put that number on that game because it will freak people out and they won't like it. So, and honestly, that number that has nothing to do with the brand itself. So 525 was a really, and we couldn't make 13 because Sarah's favorite number was 13. And we wouldn't be able to sustain a 13 game run unless it was insanely expensive. So 525 is related to obviously the IP. So it actually means something to the fans of Winchester, but it's also a really good number for the pinball community that it's going to be rare that's not factoring 100 plus games going overseas you know so that means that the american market is getting even smaller but the reason we're doing this as a small run is it also allows us so the expansion of our company we've moved into 13 000 square feet behind us is we want to be able to have a main lane where we're doing kind of our bigger ips but again my creative itch and my creative itch of all my uh employees is i want to give them outlets to do dream stuff as well that may not be realistic in a manufacturing world so with the expansion and the vertical integration of all of what we're doing regarding parts and prototyping is winchester is the perfect game to basically allow us to expand and experiment to see if this is a viable solution. So again, I hope people are super excited about, you know, a passion project that is damn fun to play. It's hard, don't get me wrong. So Carl is a really good player. And I will tell you, this is not, you know, this ain't going to be baby's first pinball. It's fine, it's fine. The skill level needs some work, okay? Perhaps you don't let them stream it and blow up the game originally, because I've seen that happen in the past. You know, kudos to you on that, Carl. Now, when you're talking about working with the licensor or the IP holder for Winchester, was there a back and forth with design elements, play field elements, animations? It seems like you said you've got almost free reign, which can be good and which can be bad. But I'm just curious, was there any pushback or anything that you had to deal with on this one? We had very little notes really coming back. Two red lines? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Which was spelling mistakes. Right, a lot of it was spelling mistakes, just stuff like that that came through. a couple uh modifications like nothing nothing demonic no you know stuff like that but it was very very free range and so this actually this is going to be a game where if actually the owners come up with new ideas we will actually be able to do it like we've created over 13 rooms all in 3d so we've created whole rooms whole hallways like if you guys come up with an idea and it's a good idea, the license is going to allow us to do it. And then, I mean, seriously, whatever you guys come up with and we think it's good enough, we can actually execute it without any fear of the licensor won't do that, which is, I think, kind of actually a first, if you think about it. It just seems like a huge undertaking, at least when you're dealing with something that, with a license holder that has assets, right? I mean, you can rely on those assets. You can rely on the story. And I would say, especially when you're dealing with animations, that tends to be very demanding, just like your artwork, your storyline, everything that you have here. There's nothing other than the idea of that Winchester Mystery House. There's nothing really that you had core elements to plug and play into the game. We do. The logo. The logo. Clyde was also the famous wheelbarrow ghost that they have assets for, and so we put Clyde in the game, made sure he was a big part of it. I mean, we design, I mean, we have handmade pretty much everything in this game, which is, you know, people weigh up, like you said, like you get a license, you get this, you know, treasure trove of all the stuff about put into the game. And obviously we have a ton of photo references. We have video and stuff like that. But again, none of that's going to be interactive on the play field. So everything you see, I mean, this is what I call a real craftsmanship because everything is, you know, hand-drawn, everything is animated. I do realize I put a lot of – this was a huge undertaking, and everyone that came on at first, oh, yeah, yeah, this won't be a problem, and then I was just like, what did I sign up for? I said, hey, I was very honest, like, this ain't going to be easy. Well, as Ken said, sometimes having, you know, that free reign, that's a good thing, but there, you know, can be a downside. was it was it difficult to rein in your your ideas and narrow them down to things that you could actually put into the game because i mean your minds had to been all over the place and i had to be having that free reign there had to have been millions of ideas floating around i don't think we really reined anything in we revised things what did we cut from the story and stuff i don't think anything was cut from the story no no mech wise we did we cut any mech wise we just revised things over time, but nothing was actually cut from it. It got bigger, actually. It probably did, if you want to say that. Carl, would you like to take a minute, and as long as you'd like, actually, and just kind of talk a little bit more about the team involved here? It seems like the main focus, rightfully so, is usually on how a game shoots, which would, you know, the designer with the layout and the flow. But, I mean, we've got animations, we've got artwork, we've got audio, which was really refreshing to me to hear some of that audio package that we were kind of privy to with the reveal video. It just seems like everything in this game just feels very refreshing. And I was wondering if you could maybe talk a little bit about the team that was involved behind those creative assets. Well, we can start with Brad Brad Albright. He did the art package for the entire game, the play field, the cabinet, the back glass. and I say he was given an impossible task because I had my insert layout all done and we slapped it on him and you've got this giant map in the middle of the play field which I really didn't know how it would translate to an art package and he came up with this wonderful blueprint plan of the house going through all the different rooms and up to the attic, to the witch's cap all the way to the basement it's a fantastic package all together I think and then we had Josh kind of leading right? Yeah, Josh all the animations in 3D well with Julian Exactly. And Trent doing text treatments and the halos around the ghost Right, and they've all kicked it out of the park they've built these 3D landscapes inside the rooms and Josh basically took I gave him a virtual tour of the house and he basically took the house and then modeled it in 3D right so he can move there and he spent this an insane amount of time detailing the organ that's in the grand ballroom which is this detailed piece of work it's just it's a phenomenal thing it'll be featured more in the game later on there's a couple spots in it right now so you're saying the 3d element uh or scan of the rooms like you're going to be able to visually experience that within the lcd screen so this isn like generic graphics this is like kind of you getting that real authentic tour of that home Right So you be walking through the halls It an endless hallway when you traveling But when you start the modes in the rooms there a camera that moves through the room to set where we actually like showing the final scene for the room Seriously, guys, we kind of honestly probably went way above and beyond we should have. But it's too late now. We're down the road. That's what happens. It's a passion. When it's a passion project, that's what happens. Things get out of control very easily. You know, the enthusiasts, they deserve it too, you know. It's just good to see an all-in effort in something like this. What about the audio? The audio was Jeff Dodson. He's been streaming on Dirty Pool Pinball, and he, again, killed it with this. So we did take some risks, and, Ron, he would be the better guy to ask about specifics. He might want to have a conversation. He might want to talk it over. But we were using a Yamaha synthesizer chip for the sound effects, which is very reminiscent of the old Bally Williams games like Dracula of that era to give the game a unique soundscape compared to most modern pinball. And then he composed the music, which has a very ear-catching theme, I think, for the primary theme. And then all the various modes have different energies and excitement based on what you're doing in the mode. Ken and I were talking about that yesterday, about how good the sounds were, how that, you know, that was such a unique and remarkable decision to do just because it did, it lended itself very well to that eeriness of the pinball machine. And kind of, that's what draws you in and kind of gives you that uncomfortableness with everything is those, those unique throwback sounds. I think it's that retro familiarity that kind of ties it in because a lot of us collectors and enthusiasts, like the eighties and nineties are where we really got into pinball, you know, and pinball is advanced, which is cool. You know, it's great to modern day pinball, but to have like some homage paid you know going back to that day of the mid to early 90s uh that for a lot of people was the heyday of uh of of pinball until you get into the modern day era so it's it was again i keep using the the term refreshing but it was refreshing to hear well it's funny it's like in dune we did a spinner sound that people absolutely hated and one of the thing with people playing this game is like that is the best spinner sound i've heard in a Pinball machine. So maybe we can redeem ourselves, including Outland. But I don't know. There's some Outland. Yeah, we'll see about that one. At least yours are adjustable. Yeah, they are adjustable. Mine weren't. One kicks back. I've got to get a T-shirt with that on. What about sculpts? So who's making all the sculpts? Is that multiple people? Is that one person? Is that a company? So that is one person. His name is Stephen. Stephen, that's it. So Stephen is a good friend of Johnny Neil Fraser. So John and Anne Neil Fraser, who did the sculpts on Labyrinth, he is a friend from, he used to work at Weta Studios and stuff like that. He brought, he wasn't able to work on this project because he had his own project to work on. So he brought Stephen in and he handled all of the sculpts for Dune and also this game. So he is down in New Zealand tweaking away, making his little sculpts and just basically he would have the Solidworks project. He will give us the step file for it. He will then take what our concept stories are and then put that over to where they need to be in the game itself. And that's a lot of like, how does it look? Put it into the 3D world, lay it down and see how it goes. And then, Carl, are you working hand in hand with Brad when it comes to the entire artwork package? For instance, when you take a look at the color scheme, it's something that I actually really like it a lot. it's it's i'm not going to say refreshing because i've said it a bunch of times but it's like it's all those colors that i like in a machine in hindsight or in forethought i don't know that i would think that those colors would correlate to what i would consider like a haunted house pinball machine in this instance it seems like it's spot on i think it's a lot of brad style in in the game and we did go back and forth a lot with colors and how to colorize the the blueprint specifically we had a lot of different shades of and then adding the various ghost trails around the plate field. And we did get brown in the game too. We did. We've got to have brown in the game. It's the signature move there with the brown. I don't think it's your barrel's color. But, yeah, we worked closely with Brad the entire time to figure out exactly what shades of everything should be, the crystal ball at the bottom, making sure that it was clear to see everything and that it meshed well with the map right next to it. Well, and it was really important. he understood pinball so yeah we had talked to other artists um you know we don't we want to keep sure our games look refreshing i mean a shout out to johnny he does an amazing work but we want to make sure we got a stable of people that can work on different projects because hey schedules don't allow for it um but we want to keep the looks refreshing so we actually tried out a few other people before we got to grad and he is just intimate knowledge of pinball and how it plays like most artists can do a cabinet that seems pretty straightforward but as soon as we get onto the play field and they most artists lose their mind because they don't understand well they you got to teach them that's a piece of ui that is how you're instructing the player to how to play the game and that usually breaks their head because they think in a 2d world and you got to think in a 3d world and brad just like hit the ground running i mean he just he again his experience and playing pinball, he understood the assignment. He crushed it. He did. Yeah, you got what was going on. He's got those balls. Yeah, the spear trills going on the ball path is a great touch. The ornamentations on the inserts, he came up with all the ideas for that. So the inserts weren't just, you know, pure arrows for the larger ones. He also came up with the spirit board. We had various, again, various types of spirit boards, and he came up with the apron one. That's an amazing concept. I absolutely love that. that apron, you know, largely has been underutilized space because nowadays everyone's looking to put lights and everything. You got lights and leg bolts these days. It almost seems like. But that spear port, could you go back in and just kind of deep dive that slightly and how that came about, how that was implemented? And I am assuming you're happy with it because I think it's a pretty remarkable part of the game, especially with the player who's always looking in that area between the flippers for the most part. You know, that's a high traffic area. Yeah, exactly. It should be a quick reference for anyone playing the game. We just we have spirit board. We wanted a spirit board in the game somewhere with a planchette. And we had it over the sand stable. We had a smaller one on the apron. And just once Brad came in, he came up with an idea. Just, well, we just use the whole apron. He gave a quick mock up of it. And so that's awesome. And what if we light this up? Can we light up the individual letters instead of another plan that we were we had? Yeah. And it just all came together. It's fascinating that it just worked how we wanted it to work, and it looks so fun. Well, and, you know, the spirit board is what, again, Winchester, that's the core thing. She would, you know, history says that she would call the spirits to have a seance every night from 12 to 2 a.m. So, like, it's natural for it to be a calling card because the spirits use that to communicate with her. So right in front of the player, it absolutely made sense to have that in there. So when you look down there, you're going to see bowl one, player two. You're going to see those numbers down there. We light up yes or no to questions. So it's like the game. This is an opportunity for the game to communicate to the player that you're not alone. It's creepy, but it's creepy cool. I dig it. So, Carl, approaching this game and starting to design it, Can you kind of give us a, you know, kind of a generalized timeline in a sense of like what you started with? What was your initial idea? Was it that turntable with the ballpads? Like what did you guys know that you needed to start with? And then, you know, what kind of progressed and, you know, built from there as ideas started to flow? Right. It wasn't the turntable. That was not the start of the game. It was really getting the falling tower in. We wanted that in there. We wanted a staircase to nowhere. We wanted a door to nowhere. So those were the three main elements. And then the idea started, the turntable evolved from the staircase to nowhere because we wanted to have the player, a diverter basically, that would divert up that one-way ramp and not. So it came with a little tiny mech. And I thought, oh, what if we make this a little bigger and added four ball paths to it? And, oh, this is working. Let's make it even bigger and see if we can squeeze in just an insane number of ball paths. so it all just kind of organically grew from those three elements uh the door the tower the tower was originally meant to have only like fall mid-game and have a completely different ball path it would basically change the geometry of the play field was the original idea we we since backed away from that completely but it does have a different ball path when it falls um and same thing with the door it was just another way i always loved the haunted gotley's haunted house and the the hidden target or the fake targets that's in the middle of that's where you shoot the ball and it goes into the basement so i wanted something similar to that and the door to nowhere was a perfect way to translate that style of mech or idea into the winchester mystery house can you explain that mech a little more what is the the stairs to nowhere in there how does that physically interact in the game so the staircase there where you can see it uh it's the one ramp that's kind of 90 degrees from the player. It's off of the turntable, and there's a magnet in the middle of that ramp. So the ball shoots up it. The ball is grabbed by the magnet. The turntable then rotates to send the ball into the basement. That's one of the ways you get the wheelbarrow ghost multiball. It's the locks for the wheelbarrow ghost multiball. Dare we say that Clyde is grabbing the ball and throwing it into the basement? You could say that. It's a spirit of some sort grabbing the ball, of course. You guys have any moments where it got a little spooky or eerie late at night, 2 a.m., designing something? It's like, hey, I'm going to throw this spirit board on this play field, light it up, starts talking to you. Anything kind of creepy, any fun stories that maybe, again, with the team that maybe we'd only share over a drink or two over late night at an expo? We'll see you next week. did this i mean this really came together pretty organically wouldn't you say it really did it really it really did um and there weren't too many modifications from the you know the initial design of things it was just tweaking some minor shots here and there yeah well and old pinball machines there's always going to be you know they're all you're always taking the baby away so there's always things that we're going to learn from this and move on to you know maybe do something a little bit different just like i did with labyrinth and dune but i mean honestly there was nothing i didn't think of anything that really stumped us like we have to change this no nothing completely stumped us no so carl with the approach to this code what direction did you guys go in i know that that you know that we are the the player we're kind of going through the the tour of the home and everything but what what kind of encounters and what does that look like for for us as a player right so the game is set up a little differently than most games instead of having like a scoop shot you go into starter mode immediately you pick which mode based on a shot there's color coding between the rooms on the map and the rooms you visit so you shoot the color that matches the room you want to go to and that then you're walking to the room so you don't immediately start it you're walking to it to actually build the value of your mode when you reach that room and you can extend past that room so the idea in this game is you can from the very beginning go all the way to the furthest room if you really wanted to uh to experience that and build value higher and higher and higher um but in the actual rooms like one of the first three rooms you can get is uh the venetian dining room where you're going to have a spirit that's um staring sitting at a table staring at a candle because she can't move away from it um you'll learn about a later in the game about a um a spirit in the house named henry that's that is kind of controlling these spirits. So you have to help her light all the candles on the table in order to free her spirit. Another room in the basement, you encounter some shadow spirits that are trying to push you out of the basement. You walk into the basement, the lights go off, spirit yells at you, and you have to hold down your action button to activate a light to vanquish that spirit. And that continues to happen throughout the whole mode. So you're exploring the basement, trying to get the lights back on, these spirits keep coming at you hold down the button to get rid of the spirit and you can keep moving on otherwise you have to leave the basement immediately uh if the spirit gets you so you mentioned you mentioned those three rooms how linear is is the game when you're first starting off what what are my selections do how many rooms do i have to choose from that i can enter first so you start in the foyer and from there you have three initial rooms and there's a fourth room that's unlocked that you you can use a key for so keys are important in the game you tap the action button that unlocks the door. So right off the bat, you have four different rooms. Once you go to those rooms, you can continue on to any of the other available rooms. So the game is structured to play however you want to play. You visit whichever rooms you choose to visit. There is no linear structure. You don't have to go to this room, then this room, then this room. And beyond that, there's a... Sance multiball is the primary multiball for the game. That's shot where the inline targets are. So you would shoot a target and hit the cap of the ball to call the spirits. You'll hear a call out shooting the shoot behind the secret passage into the sands table that locks your ball. You hear a poetic call out from our wonderful tour guide. And then the other multiball is wheelbarrow ghost. You're going to spell open in the in the lanes and start to hurry up and the shooting the turntable to go that to that staircase to nowhere that we talked about earlier where the magnet grabs it and you're going to go in the basement to help Clyde fend off the spirits as the boiler is trying to explode. well and it sounds like that you've kind of built in some risk and reward in this game by traveling through those rooms like you said i can go all the way to the last room or i can hang out in these rooms and build some value uh i'm i'm sure that seemingly that you've built in a lot of strategy that there's a lot of ways to approach this game strategically to maximize points or just to experience as an adventure right exactly and if someone actually wants to skip all that they can, while they're traveling to the room, say they've got 30 seconds before they actually reach the room. If they want to skip it, they can hold down the action button and go straight to the room. So you don't have to play it that way. If you're not interested in points and you just want to play for the story, hold down the button, go to your room, play the mode. I like the experience. I like the modes. I like the travel. I'm not a big points guy. I can be, but I like that adventure. I selfishly, I'm the same way. I do like the experience of new moments and exploring and seeing what the feedback of the game is going to offer me. And it seems like this game is going to hit on that. So that makes me super excited. Not to say I'm not competitive if I need to be, but, you know, overall, I just like the overall presentation of a game. Well, and speaking of that, you know, do you guys, I mean, just from your other games, I'm sure it's in there, but is there any kind of moments that you guys can explain? I mean, you've got the Pepper's Ghost, you've got the Crystal Ball, you've got the Seance, everything that goes on. Is there anything that stands out in either one of your minds that is just like this moment in the game with the music, the lights, everything like I described from Dune and Labyrinth that you guys have had? Is there anything that stands out to you all that's your favorite without giving too much away, but that's your favorite that just pulls you in and you're kind of like, oh, man, that's good. I mean, to me, it's the basement, though, the whispers in the dark that really does it just because it's so atmospheric. And you've got this heartbeat with the lights flashing, heartbeat for the shots. and then with the ghost coming at you, it's bouncing back and forth between trying to stop that ghost from getting you and then moving to the basement. I think it's fun. For me, I would say it's... Actually, it's two things. Sans multiball, I like that because if you hit your jackpots and you hit the captive ball you get a super jackpot which causes the tower to come over and then you got the super jackpot that goes behind the tower that is a great moment but actually what i really really love is in the out lane so when you go out of the out lane a little girl catches the ball and says some words to you and kicks it back for you oh man yeah that little girl's like you want to play it's like that little girl that's a creepy little voice in the promo video it's creepy like i I like it. I don't want the machine making that noise at like two in the morning when I have a sitting idle. That's a little bit concerning, but that's the creep factor on there for sure. Is there anything in the game that's not right in your face? Is there anything that the more you explore that you don't have access to right off the bat that takes a little bit of playing to get to? If I'm getting deeper into the game, I'm in a 15, 20-minute game, Is there things that I'll see that are kind of hidden up front that I'll eventually find and discover? There absolutely will be. There's going to be loads in the game. This game is very deep. It's going to keep everyone that wants to play it for a long time or can't play it for a long time, it'll keep them entertained. This is Cal D'Python Anghelo. You've seen him play pinball? Yeah. At the same time, it's designed to be accessible also. So a lot of the mid wizards or mini wizards are designed to be approachable, be reachable by hopefully most players. Well, and that's the whole point, right? Like you can go anywhere in the house with the tour guide. So, I mean, if you're a really good player, then you're going to do every room. But for someone like me is I want to go to X room and I can go there. It may take me a little bit of time. So it's not like you're forced. Again, this is the non-linear nature that you're talking about, is you can tackle this any which way you want. So, I mean, I won't see the whole game. I know that. This company exists because we truly love what we do. It doesn't, honestly, it sometimes does not make financial sense, the things that we do here. But it really, again, I firmly believe if we make things that we're truly passionate, I empower people, my people, to do the best they can, we won't have to worry about working. Don't get me wrong. It's been hard. like it's it's been hard yeah it's been a long day but what else would you do like seriously no i wouldn't i mean that's why that's why i spend my evenings doing this yeah i work a day job and then i go home and i work more but it doesn't feel like work really i mean it's it is work but it's not work yeah it's just you know if you want to see more stuff like this see us i mean that yeah a lot of media people out there would say this was a huge risk but at the same time we can't create anything new, have new experiences if we don't take some risks. And this is an example of pure passion, you know, because we want to make something different and have something that we can share with the community. And hopefully we get rewarded for that. Hopefully. Hopefully people like it. You're spot on. I mean, that's what the community is looking for. They're looking for something new outside of the box, something that's going to pique their interest from design to approach to rules. Well, I appreciate it. There's no way, like, again, if people want original IPs, this is probably as close. Actually, honestly, if this is a huge success, I'm scared what else we're going to try. Because we do have some really weird stuff out there. But again, it's just like, you guys, if people want to see different things, supporting projects like this, no matter which company it comes from, is what makes it happen. Just make sure they can ship games. I wanted to mention, Carl has hand-signed cards for every game. customer. And don't get me wrong, he's actually customized every freaking letter. They do not read this. It's not like he just sat there and just gone do-do-do-do. He has customized every freaking letter. And my wife comes in and says, do you know what Carl did? I'm like, what do you mean? She goes, look. Look at this. I gotta see that. That's crazy. You gotta collect them all. You gotta buy 525 games and get every version. That's the only way to go. Only way to go about it. Alright, David, so before we let you go, launch date October 13th is happening today, just now. Any reasoning, any strategic reasoning behind October 13th? Well, realistically, this will be the second year that our company has publicly been known about. So we launched Labyrinth on Friday the 13th, 2023, and we were at Chicago the following week. So it feels kind of natural. Again, no one asked for Labyrinth, and Labyrinth was very special to us. and it allowed us to be where we are today. And to be able to launch a game that some people will know about, but it's filled with so much passion, to launch it on the exact same time frame, I mean, honestly, it's giving me goosebumps right now. Like, again, to be able to bring a game that hopefully no one has heard about to Expo that people will get to play, we're going to have four games there, empowering Carl and the team around him to make the best story possible with games shipping during Halloween. I can't. And maybe a special surprise at the end of Halloween that would be really cool to do, but I can't announce that yet, is I can't think of a better way to do this. And I'm just, it's on the record, but Carl, I can't tell you how proud I am of you leading this team. This is why I do what I do. Oh, man. Thank you. for the opportunity david sorry guys no man that's amazing that's what it's amazing that is what it's about yeah yeah congratulations to you both of you guys man the whole team you know everything you guys have put out thus far dune labyrinth has been amazing so i mean truly truly truly truly like i cannot wait to get my hands on this game i honestly think that uh it might rival the other two pretty well. Well, and the way you can get a hold of this game, right? $11,600. You can go to flippingoutpinball.com. You can go ahead and order your game right now, assuming they're still left in stock. You can also email myself, Ken, at flip, the letter N, outpinball.com, or Greg at flippingoutpinball.com. Say, hey, want to get in on this game right now, the new game from Barrels of Fun, and we'll take care of you guys. Again, personally, appreciate the time that you guys took to kind of sit down and talk about the game and and obviously we work for a distributor and and we're pretty enthusiastic about all things pinball but uh especially enthusiastic about what you guys have here today i can't wait to play it and can't wait for people to own it and just congratulations to the both of you guys it looks like a like a job well done are you guys cigar smokers by any chance well you'll be starting on uh thursday night so we'll bring one for each of you it'll be fine but again i I appreciate it, guys. Yeah, right. Thank you very much. Yeah, congratulations again. Thank you, guys. Yeah, congrats, guys. All right, Greg. Well, Carl D'Python Anghelo and David David Van Es from Barrows of Fun shocking the world with just a surprise game coming out of nowhere. Well, that's what I was going to say, Ken. Like, how many surprises do we honestly get in this hobby? We don't get very many, man, because, I mean, there's rumors floating around everywhere. And this is a rumor. I mean, we were slightly privy to it. a little bit. We'd heard a little bit, but not much. But I mean, it wasn't anything that you saw on forums. It wasn't anything that you saw people talking about. So the fact that they were able to keep this thing under wraps and to do what they did to me is just... It's mind-blowing. It really is. Information travels so fast, right, to keep it under wraps. And look, I want to be very direct with anybody that's watching this. And you guys know us from the podcast. You know Greg from straight down the middle and flipping out pinball. Again, integrity is everything to us. We're always going to be very honest with what our feelings are about a game, although we've not played it at this point. Looking forward to playing it at Expo. But I've got to say, it checks a lot of boxes, Greg, of things that I've been looking for in a new game. And the whole Haunted House tie-in to me, man, I've been wanting to do that. I wanted to do an original game myself for the past five or six years that was haunted house themed. And I just I love that genre for there only to be 525 units. It's like I wonder if that will be unfortunate at some point or if it's the right amount. I mean, the buyers will make that decision. Selfishly, I mean, I again, I want to play it, but I would like to own a pin like this in my collection, assuming that it shoots decently. Oh, I will definitely own it. I will definitely. Just because I like what I see. You can tell. I mean, you've got Carl on it. Everything that's come out from them has been solid. So I don't have any hesitation on it from what I've seen and playing it. I mean, there would have to be something catastrophic in there that was just like, oh, this is terrible. Why? You know? But, I mean, I don't run across very many games like that, and I don't at all see that happening with this by any means. I'm ecstatic about this game. Like you said, it's something that we have both looked for. Like you said, you were literally looking at designing your own Haunted House game. And while this is, you know, like they talked, it's kind of an original IP. And we discussed this not too long ago, too. Like, you know, this to me, you've got the freedom of an original IP in a sense, but it's tied to something historical that people can become familiar with if you're not already familiar with it. So it gives some kind of, you know, you already almost feel like that, you know, it without having to create. I don't know what I'm saying. Yeah. I mean, anybody that's in that kind of genre has interest in the paranormal or spooky places or most likely you've crossed paths with the Winchester Mystery House. I don't see how you wouldn't. And that's where I think it's it's cool. Like there's a built in cult following for that sort of paranormal. Anything paranormal and spooky is huge. But even that aside, if I'm brand new and I know nothing about it and I see this game, it gives me something to research and become familiar with. I guess that's what I'm trying to say. For sure. There's a historical record there that you can go back and you can deep dive and go down the rabbit hole because there's a lot of theories on that house. You know, it is something that is polarizing. It's interesting. Exactly. But to your point, even if you don't know what the Winchester Mystery House is, it's still in that spooky haunted house genre. And I love that they're going in there and they're doing 3D scans of the rooms. Oh, you're kind of going through the house for real. Yes. That blew me away, Ken, because I thought it was just going to be just normal 3D modeled. Like, you know, you created your own environment, your own world. Like you're playing Doom or something on a computer, right? There's a creepiness to that in itself. It is cool. It is great. And it's funny, too, because like a lot of where what this is, I'm not going to consider this the 11th episode of our podcast because this is just more of an interview, I think. But if you go back and listen to our previous podcast, there's a lot of interest that leads before we even knew this was happening. A lot of interest that leads up into the spooky and the unexplained phenomena. So this is great. Right. A Halloween time. Yeah, I'm in. I think I think I'm in on this. I'm excited about it. I wish I know. I think I'll order a game from flipping up him. I'll be like, oh, I'm getting an invoice over for myself. What's my employee discount on something like this? I got to I got to ask and see what's happening between you and the boss, man. Yeah, yeah. You know, super nice to meet Carl. I had never really crossed paths with him at all. Seems like just a really nice guy. I'm happy for him. And again, a fresh new blood designer being brought into the industry, I think, speaks volumes for barrels of fun, too. And Ken, something that I found intriguing that kind of took me by surprise was, you know, him working on the Whitewood and him and David, they didn't really discuss what that was or what he was doing. But I find it really nice to know that there's no elements of that game in this game. Because I think sometimes when you take a risk on somebody like Carl or you're looking at somebody like him and they've developed a Whitewood. Well, they may have been developing that one game in their head for eight years, and that's basically all their ideas. You know what I'm saying? It's almost like a one-hit wonder in music. And for Carl to have completely not utilized anything from that and basically, in a sense, scrap that idea for the time and create something completely different, to me, is very refreshing. Because I think that he's going to be around doing this for a very long time. time if he did that so quickly and so easily, because again, this layout is, is very interesting. It's not a very few. I mean, if you think about it, there are fewer pinball designers in the world than there are NFL starting quarterbacks, you know what I mean? And that's just like, it's such a small, isolated elite group of, uh, of athletes. And to have somebody else come in, uh, it's great. It's more impactful from, uh, um, not from like a sports perspective, but from an industry perspective to have another new designer. And Carl definitely has the credentials with what he's done previously in pinball. And again, just not only as somebody that's a world competitive pinball player and a streamer of high caliber, but just somebody that has just always been a very good ambassador for pinball. So exactly. I mean, we'll see where it goes. And, you know, it was just nice. It was so good listening to him dictate and articulate in such a clean way about things that he knows is a good player. Because, I mean, I think you can be a very good player and it's hard to articulate and really depict what makes a good pinball machine. But, I mean, he seemed like he was very in tune with the, this is what doesn't work. This is what works. These are things that I incorporate. You know, just like he was talking about the flipper. He wanted multiple ball pads going to those third or fourth flippers, that that was very important, you know, just from his playing experience. And I think no matter how good of a player, I think there's a lot of players that just can't deduce that and take that back and incorporate that into a design, per se, if that makes sense. No, and I picked up immediately because I'm always kind of curious from the competitor player standpoint. I mean, these guys are just wired differently to be able to break down a rule set and kind of find scoring exploits. and scoring is like such art points. But when we were talking to him throughout the whole process and he did get into some of that and even David David Van Es said one of his favorite parts of the game involves a jackpot and a falling tower and that sort of thing. But he's very passionate about just the design, the flow, the team. And it seems like although I'm sure scoring, obviously, it's pinball is going to be a major part of this whole thing. It's not the thing. It's not just the focus that Carl took on the game. And that's where you can go explore. You can do the adventure, the thing that the other side of pinball players, you know, love. It's that adventure and discovering and exploring. And exactly. It sounds like that he incorporated both in there. Yeah. And so this is what's going to happen. The game is out right now. Right. So you can go to flipping out pinball dot com and you can order the game online. I would even say if you really want to just connect with us specifically, just email us and let us get you taken care of. Let's get the game reserved for you. And, you know, the emails can at flipping out pinball dot com. Greg at flipping out pinball dot com. Just hit us up. We'll get your invoice in. Expo starts here on Thursday. So we'll be on the game Thursday, Friday, Saturday. We'll get away day Sunday. Why don't we reconvene? I think Monday we just need to decompress maybe a little bit because it's going to be a long weekend. Maybe Tuesday, Wednesday. Let's jump back in the booth. let's give some honest feedback on the game and just talk about our experience. And then I'll be curious to see if each one of us still have interest in buying the game. If we haven't already bought, we haven't already reserved the game because my other fear is, and again, this isn't like trying to create a sense of urgency to buy the game, but it's like, there's only 525 units. It's not a lot of units. So I'm just, yeah, I'm very curious to see how quickly these sell out. I don't, I don't know, but, but anyways, you know, hit us up. But Greg, thanks for popping in on this kind of impromptu conversation with barrels of fun. And again, thanks to Carl, Dave and Vaness over there at barrels of fun. And here we go, man, going in expo new game. Yeah, let's go for Greg. Boom. I am Ken Cromwell. Don't forget to take some time out of your day. Play some pinball. So long, everybody.