And in Kitchener, Waterloo, this was a show they had like kickboxing, beer, and there was a pinball tournament. and I went there and it was two single day events, kind of a pump and dump thing organized by the Tri-City Pinball League and I was nearly in the money, but this kind of oldish redheaded guy on his last game of Indiana Jones put up the top score and just bumped me out of the money. I framed that check, by the way. I just want you to know if you ever want to have a look at what you could have had. Yeah, that was funny. I remember they had Back to the Future, that game. And I think there was a no good gopher. Not no good gophers. It was teed off. Teed off. And there was one other game. I can't remember. But it was kind of an, okay, that kind of got me into the tournament. So I was like, okay, this is interesting. But it was after that you did get into the Tri-City Pinball League, where you and I are both not only in the league now, we actually are part of the executive that run the league. And it's a fun league. So many great players. But leagues are, I think, really important to get that kind of passion for pinball. Yeah, Tri-City Pinball League. My first experience there, we went to a collector in Brampton, and that first league night, I think we played Stargazer. We played some older dot-league. I think we played Baywatch, Judge Dredd. And I was just like, you know, I put up the top game on Stargazer. I'm like, hey, this Stargazer game is pretty cool, not knowing that it's one of the rarest, most sought-after pinball machines that people have. And coming out of that league night, I was like, you know, you got to remember, I just spent like a year and a half playing Stern Spider-Man and nothing else. And at this point, I'd bought my Wizard of Oz. But then I'm like, huh, there's these older classics games as well. And they feel very different. I need to go buy a Gottlieb. And then like a week later I went and bought the first Gottlieb I found which was a System 1 Close Encounters of the Third Kind just so I could get the feel for those flippers And you know the collection starts to grow and grow from there You have a great collection now with a good mix of old and new and different companies, too. I know you're a big supporter of a lot of the different companies, so I like seeing that. That TCPL League you help run. You're also part of the London Ontario Pinball League, but there are a couple of other ones, too, that you run single-handedly. pin-up arcade bar which we've talked about here on this program in waterloo ontario at che kernu's place you run that league and you also run one called city pinball in guelph at another one of che's locations again certainly more casual but one of my favorite things you do at those leagues you certainly follow ifpa rules but you make one exception as you are allowed to do in leagues you allow coaching and i like that because i think it really benefits the newer players gets them more excited and, oh, I can do that. That helps my score. I think that's a really good thing you've done. Yeah, we, for a long time, I sort of said, ah, no coaching. When I looked at it, you know, people like you and I in those leagues, we don't need anyone to coach. We don't need someone to tell us what to do. I don't need someone explaining to me while I'm at the game what the rules are. Speak for yourself. I'll take it. But my, you know, you'd watch newer players who don't even know they have multiball lit. They don't even know that they have an opportunity to do something great. And a lot of them, they're used to hanging out with their friends and having their friends tell them what to do. And I didn't really feel like it mattered at the end of the day. You know, it's not going to make a big difference. People still have to execute. So I enjoyed actually opening it up and allowing for coaching in that league. And I'd recommend everyone who runs bar leagues considering modifying that rule for their own location, because at the end of the day, it's probably not going to compromise the integrity of who wins. It's going to come down of flipper skills. It's not like you have a sharp standing beside you explaining the rules to you at a high-end event people are concerned about. And I'll help anyone who's even my opponent in these games, because if they can execute better than me, then they deserve to win. I think whenever I play you in any league, it's always flip a coin. Never know who's going to win. I think we're very equal in so many different ways. We have a lot of similarities and a lot of polar opposite opinions. It doesn't matter. We're still friends, but I think of the similarities We both like to play in a lot of tournaments. We both like to travel. We both have the same concerns about lighting. And I'm going to post this great picture of us wearing these shades because when things get dark, it's impossible for me to play or conversely with crazy LED lighting. And you and I have worn special glasses to prevent those kind of LED lights. Yeah, it's been a struggle for me. I don't know when it started. it's obviously something to it comes with age i'm just having a lot harder time picking things up in the dark i play at home with a lot of lights and now that i stream all the time i have external lights like lighting up my play field entirely so i'm very used to that experience and a lot of the tournaments a lot of people's homes it's just really really tough and i think that there's something for the advantages of youth in this hobby but i'm all for trying to level things out and make sure that people can see. Even on my Iron Maiden, I switched out the red GI that they use when you go into Fear of the Dark and other modes to just some warm whites because dropping to the red, I just couldn't see anymore. We're the same that way, but as I mentioned, we have a few differences too. It's so funny when we talk about the games that we like, and I'm not going to get into any specific games because I certainly want to promote pinball, but we have some big differences, And I can't figure out when I say I like or dislike a game whether you will like it or not. But if I have to bet, it's always the opposite. Yeah, I think that there's a lot. I have very different opinions than many people. I am definitely a Stern-biased player. Because I started playing with modern Sterns, with Spider-Man, I don't have nostalgia for the 90s games. I don't look at Bally Williams as the pinnacle of what pinball can be. I look at it as, wow, these flippers aren't as snappy. I don't really like the way this works. And the rules all seem really shallow. And so I have a very different perspective on games from that. But even on modern games, we have a lot of different opinions and feel about what games are great and what games are tolerable. But, you know, I think that's what makes pinball fun. Everyone has a different opinion. I'll say this. As we mentioned Carl and Big Buck Hunter, I think one of the biggest reasons I stopped playing at one of the leagues is because I had to play Big Buck Hunter every other week. I was like, I'm done. I can't do it anymore. And I see Carl again going nuts trying to get open season. And it's not that I can't play well on it. I mean, we're talking match play or best score. I can put up good scores. I just don't have fun playing that game. I love Big Buck Hunter. I think that what's holding Big Buck Hunter back is actually just its code. It's got some issues with the mechanics, which you can fix, and you can make the game much more bulletproof. So getting the elk to work consistently, getting the buck to work consistently, getting the bird to not drain down the middle. But once you've taken care of those things, I actually think it's a great layout. Where the game struggles, and this is what Carl's running into, is open season is possibly the hardest wizard mode to get to in all of pinball. And yes, including things like Valinor and Super Duper Awesome Simpsons, whatever mode. You know, I think that just the sheer number of things you have to do in Buck and how boring they are to get some of those later ones, that's got to be the hardest wizard mode. World Poker Tour has a pretty tough one, too. Oh, yeah. Kiefer's done a lot of really interesting deep modes. But again, I think that, you know, you look at something like Simpsons, there's a lot you have to do to get there. But some of the really tedious things are left off. Like, I don't think you need Pretzel to get there. So Buck, you need to get through all of those bonus rounds and all of those birds. And that's just really hard. A lot of survival and a lot of hoping that the buck works since Carl has found some interesting things. I know you're a big lover of the monsters. I love the way the game shoots. I actually don't mind playing the game. I just, it's not for me. Ghostbusters, which you own, I curse every single time I have to play that game. But what am I missing? About Ghostbusters. About both of them. So monsters is an interesting game for me because I don't love playing monsters. like just for fun but i love it in competition it's a game i will pick first opportunity in our league finals and that just because i feel so comfortable in geometry there's some real nuances to the rules on monsters well there's one nuance to the rule which is how you stack spot and grandpa which a lot of people don't know about but that gives you a huge advantage if you can execute on that and it basically will guarantee that you'll get to monster madness so i like that game for some of the subtlety and some of the decision making about like how to use jackpots, how to use your multipliers. And so I think it's a good competition game, even though I don't really enjoy just stepping up and playing it. Ghostbusters, on the other hand, is just hard and fun. And it's a theme immersion that just gets me like I love it. And so I really enjoy the game. I bought it, you know, day one, and I still enjoy playing it today. It's a hugely popular game, especially on location to a great theme, beautiful to look at, just get frustrated by it. But the code certainly has gotten a lot better. That I appreciate. Yeah, I like that, you know, Stern has allowed their coders to revisit things I think that making the code a little easier on Ghostbusters has kind of balanced out the difficulty of the geometry with the gameplay to make it a little more possible to get deep into the game now. So that's another game that I have now mostly, I'll say, mostly made it to the Wizard mode on. I was actually like, I cheated. I didn't quite get through We're Ready to Believe You, but I've done it using the menu option now. The other big difference, too, is that I would say you are more brave than I am. And what we're talking about is you will take a cause, an opinion, and put it out there in the forefront. Whereas I know that if I offer an opinion on something, you're going to have people on both sides. Call me a chicken? Sure, whatever you want. Doesn't mean I don't have an opinion. It just means I'm not as public or as vocal about that. You once told me, I thought this was a great line, you studied pinball drama at the school of juilliard you've taken some heat in the past and you stand by your convictions and your opinions and offer you know a good point of view has that been difficult for you we see bow and karen's take up causes and i know he's taken some heat for it but he's quite proud that he has a voice that can be heard for those that maybe can't be heard and you're similar in that way yeah it's very much something that you know from various experiences I've had in my life, various trainings I've had, my experiences talking to my wife and that. I am very privileged. I am a white male. I'm quite well off. It's very easy for me to get by in life. When I look at the struggles that some people go through, I know that it's good for me to be able to use my privilege to help amplify their voices. I'm not trying to really pass judgment or any of that on the things that I try to get involved with. I just like to point out things that other people are thinking already themselves, are feeling, and I want to acknowledge those thoughts. I want to acknowledge those feelings. If you look at the threads I've most been involved in, there's often people within the community who are thanking for raising attention for what's going on, and there's a lot of toxic negativity in that, But that's part of what being able to use your own privileges. I'd rather people are attacking me and giving voice to people who are possibly uncomfortable sharing that than for them to have to speak out. I think what's important is never are we judging people. We're judging things that were said, but not the intentions of why people said that. It's really just acknowledging that people have feelings. People respond to words. Words are powerful and we should be careful about what we say. You know, I think one of the reasons I look forward to playing with you and talking with you and traveling with you and all these type of things is because I learn a lot from you, Ian. I think you're one of the smartest people I know when it comes to pinball and life in general for that matter. And you've taught me a lot of different things, too, a lot of ways that I've gone about maybe saying things or offering opinions. You know, my big default is I'm always trying to make somebody laugh. But you've got to really stop and think, okay, what's the other side of that laugh? and you've pulled me back a little bit and I appreciate that. And even on this program too, we're now coming into our, it'll be four years in November for Pinball Profile. You were there at the very beginning. And if you ever hear me ever talk about we at Pinball Profile or anything like that, I don't think of it as just me. I think of it as the person I'm talking to on the other end. And I think of people like you that really gave me some good guidance. And I would ask you suggestions about some guests and what are some topics that would be of interest to you that maybe I'm not thinking about. So you've always been a great friend in that way for me, and I appreciate that. But I'm wondering, what is your most proud pinball moment? It can be anything. Really, like, personal accomplishment, coming second at Classics at the New York City Pinball Championships to Bowen, probably is my sort of crowning moment right now. I would have liked to be able to put up a better fight there, but that's a really big accomplishment. that was, you know, it's a coming second to Bowen is, it's not a win, but it's as close as I can get. That's a pretty good feeling. That was a big one, too. And if I recall, there was the music in the background. I don't remember if the storm was singing Sean Grant or the knobs, but it was a different atmosphere that we're used to. And I found it fun. It's not for everyone, but you kind of knew what you were getting into when you went to the NYC PC. And I thought, yeah, you did very, very well there. Coming in second to Bowen, yeah, that's like a first. Yeah, I think that, you know, there's been other things and it's not all just play, you know, like really everyone talks about it. But I know way more people now through pinball. I've made lots of friends. There are people I enjoy talking to. There are people I have no idea who they are because they come into my chat room on my stream and there's some like obscure handle, which is either unpronounceable or some sort of a joke. And I don't even know who the people are on the other side. But at Pimberg, I had someone come up to me who I had never met, and they were like, hey, I watch your stream. And that was a really cool feeling. Nice. Well, Ian, I look forward to seeing you and all of our pinball friends, and we can catch you on GammaGoat on Twitch, and hopefully we get through all this. You know, you talked about NYCPC and your great finish there last year. As this was unfolding, as we're seeing throughout the world, you were the first person I knew that said, this is bigger than maybe we're thinking. You had canceled out NYCPC probably two weeks before and talking about the pressure that it puts on the health care staff and we have to flatten the curve. I mean, you knew this weeks before everyone else. And I thought, well, maybe that's a little chicken little how right you were and how we have all followed suit. So can you look in your crystal ball and tell us what's next? Are we going to get out of this thing? Well, we will get through this. You know, I can't take much. I can't take a lot of credit for my forecasting of what's going to come. You know, this is all coming to me from very, very brilliant operational people at my work who were looking at this much more than I was. you know i looked at my personal life and followed my work guidance and they were right not me unfortunately but i think that the bad thing with this situation is that everywhere was probably a couple weeks late in responding and we could have made things a lot better but it looks like at least in canada the social distancing is looks like it's helping bc is having very promising results right now hospital capacities are at a good place so there's good things coming out of this. The number of people streaming, cool things like Deadflip did that 20 person maiden stream last week. There's a lot of cool stuff going on. People are trying new things. We've got companies like Measel Mods making face shields. So good things will come out of this. We will get through this. We'll get back to pinball. You said it. Ian Harrower, if he says it, it's got to be true. Ian, good to talk to you again, buddy. Hope to see you soon. Yeah, same to you, Jeff. This has been your pinball profile. You can find our group on Facebook, but go to pinballprofile.com. Get all your downloads, all the old shows, everything is right there. You can follow us on Twitter and Instagram at pinballprofile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. I'm Jeff Teolas.