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The Pinball Show Ep 181 BONUS: Top 5 Greatest Gottlieb Premier Pinball Machines Of All Time

Pinball Show Patreon Feed·podcast_episode·31m 0s·analyzed·Sep 11, 2025
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Top 5 Gottlieb Premier games ranked with designer history and system analysis.

Summary

A detailed discussion ranking the top 5 Gottlieb Premier pinball machines of all time (1990+), featuring hosts Zach and Dennis debating selections from Teed Off through Stargate and Freddy. The episode reveals industry lore about designer Claude Fernandez and the Aftor machine, includes insights into Gottlieb system reliability and rule design philosophy, and highlights Ray Tanzer's underappreciated design contributions.

Key Claims

  • Gottlieb games until System 3 had significant grounding issues and required modifications

    high confidence · Zach speaking from personal experience with Buck Rogers restoration

  • Teed Off and Class of 1812 (1812) were both speakers' #5 pick for Gottlieb Premier games

    high confidence · Both hosts independently selected these games for the same slot

  • Brooks and Dunn is a prototype that never went into production

    high confidence · Dennis stated it never went into production and was shown at Expo repeatedly

  • Cueball Wizard was originally designed as a street-level game by John Norris, who later added ramp and cue ball toy

    high confidence · Zach citing design history conversion from street level to full-featured machine

  • Hoops was produced with 879 units, making it the last street-level Gottlieb game

    high confidence · Zach providing production numbers and historical context

  • Ray Tanzer designed or co-designed Hoops, Class of 1812, Stargate, and Freddy for Gottlieb

    high confidence · Both hosts attributing designs to Ray Tanzer across multiple games

  • Stargate sold over 3,600 units, making it the highest-produced game in their top 5 list

    high confidence · Zach providing production numbers

  • Claude Fernandez designed Aftor for WICO in 1984, not a previously credited designer

    high confidence · Joe Balzer responded directly via text confirming Fernandez as designer

  • Freddy (A Nightmare on Elm Street) rules were problematic, with attempts at a 'dream world' mode improvement

    medium confidence · Dennis mentioning rule issues and John Norris working on rules for later Gottlieb games

  • Ray Tanzer is currently employed at Stern as an engineer and oversaw their first factory move

Notable Quotes

  • “I have a hard time finding five that I've played enough of that I really enjoy. But Brooks and Dunn speaks to me in terms of theme. It's the goofiest, hokiest most 90s theme ever.”

    Dennis@ 6:54 — Reveals the tension between personal taste and playability in evaluating games; Brooks and Dunn's theme appeal despite questionable production status

  • “The rules are actually very, very well balanced... You can light and rip the spinner and go for those points... It will release the balls if you don't do it fast enough.”

    Zach@ 14:07 — Detailed explanation of why Hoops stands out mechanically among Gottlieb games; emphasizes rule balance as rarity

  • “I enjoy the pen more than I do the film... on Stargate.”

    Dennis@ 19:59 — Unusual statement that the pinball adaptation surpasses the source film, contradicting typical IP hierarchies

  • “Ray Tanzer... He's a mechanical engineer, and then Gottlieb started to use him... I've wanted to interview Ray Tanzer. I really have.”

    Zach@ 18:54 — Expresses desire to document Ray Tanzer's design philosophy before it's lost; signals concern about historical documentation of solid-state era

  • “All this history is being lost. We've already lost a lot of it... we're starting to lose a lot of the solid state era now too.”

    Zach@ 25:17 — Meta-commentary on industry archival challenges and urgency to preserve design history

  • “He said, I was at WECO when the game was built. No design work from me, as it was done by Claude Fernandez.”

    Joe Balzer (via text)@ 27:32 — Direct revelation of previously undocumented designer attribution; resolves 40-year mystery about Aftor's authorship

  • “The thing about – I didn't know that Balser was at WICO... he would probably have done it. But no.”

Entities

Ray TanzerpersonJohn NorrispersonClaude FernandezpersonJoe BalzerpersonZach SharpepersonDennispersonSteve RitchiepersonBill Parkerperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Ray Tanzer's design approach prioritizes innovative mechanical layouts and balance over thematic literalism (e.g., Hoops basketball gameplay vs. court appearance, Stargate multi-layered toy design)

    high · Both hosts repeatedly praise Tanzer's design decisions; Zach explicitly contrasts Hoops' gameplay-focused approach to 'make you feel like you're on the court' competitors

  • ?

    historical_signal: Claude Fernandez confirmed as Aftor designer after 40 years through Joe Balzer contact; reveals systemic gaps in industry documentation and crediting practices

    high · Joe Balzer's direct text message confirming Fernandez as designer; IPDB lacked this attribution; hosts discuss urgency of archival before key figures pass

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts express concern about losing solid-state era design history and emphasize importance of documenting designers before they pass; suggests emerging community focus on archival

    high · Zach: 'All this history is being lost... we're starting to lose a lot of the solid state era now too'; repeated mentions of wanting to interview Ray Tanzer and other designers

  • ?

    personality_signal: Joe Balzer characterized as enthusiastic and prone to over-sharing information; needs 'handler' to prevent disclosure; beloved by community figures

    medium · Hosts affectionately discuss Balzer's tendency to 'give too much info'; reference having 'a big spot in our hearts for Joe Balzer'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Hoops demonstrates rare balance in Gottlieb Premier lineup with well-designed hurry-up mechanics, multiball lock system, and stall ball compatibility; became tournament standard

Topics

Gottlieb Premier game rankings and evaluationprimaryDesign philosophy and mechanical innovationprimaryPinball industry history and designer documentationprimaryRay Tanzer's design contributions and legacyprimaryGottlieb system reliability and grounding issuessecondaryProduction numbers and rarity of gamessecondaryTournament viability and rule balancesecondaryArchival and historical preservation challengessecondary

Sentiment

positive(0.78)— Hosts display genuine enthusiasm for Gottlieb games despite acknowledging design flaws; affectionate tone toward designers and machines; excitement about historical discovery of Claude Fernandez's Aftor credit; some mild criticism of art/rules balanced by appreciation of mechanical creativity

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.093

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised. Thanks again for the ongoing support as a Pinball Show Club member. Enjoy this exclusive TPS content and make sure to visit the Pinball Show Club Discord to chat about the bonus material. Let's jump into the top five Gottlieb Premier Games. And you're known in the industry as, you know, not disliking Gottliebs. You don't there are some that you think are really good games and you don't ignore like some other media people might.
0:35
Yeah, it's you've mentioned it before that they're you know, you haven't played them all. They're hard to the the the modern era, like the solid state era there. They're hard to find. People don't. And when you find them, they're usually in decent condition. A lot of people would joke that's because they were broken down so much that nowhere was put on many of them. I don't like working on them. And, well, they were until System 3. I think System 3 is a pretty good system. But up until System 3, there was a lot of squirreliness that existed because they had Rockwell doing the designs.
1:11
And there were some aspects that just like there were grounding issues. There's a lot of modification. The grounding issues. Yeah. I remember doing the grounding on my, I think it was on my Buck Rogers. I actually own three Gottliebs still in my current collection. But I've owned a number of them. Yeah. there's a paint like the even the dmd games like i've had a freddy a couple times and it's just i'm not used to the system there's fucking fuses everywhere into the play field there's it's just it's totally different and i hate hated going through their damn ui system to do tests and
1:48
oh so i actually this will this might surprise you you i don't think you know this about me Zach. I've never owned a Gottlieb DMD or a WMS DMD. Oh, that does surprise me. Really? Never? All my DMDs are Sterns. Yeah, I didn't even think about that. Nope. I've never. Never. Well, let's change that. Let's see what

medium confidence · Hosts discussing his current role but acknowledging uncertainty about ongoing activity

Zach@ 30:18 — Shows investigative methodology and surprise at discovering Joe Balzer's connection to WICO

  • “It's a wide body. I shouldn't even want to talk about it.”

    Dennis@ 26:19 — Casual dismissal of WICO's single-game output; implies industry norms around production sustainability

    • Gottliebcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    WICOcompany
    Williamscompany
    Ballycompany
    Teed Offgame
    Class of 1812game
    Brooks and Dunngame
    Cueball Wizardgame
    Hoopsgame
    Stargategame
    Freddygame
    Aftorgame
    Monster Bashgame
    Flash Gordongame
    The Pinball Showorganization

    high · Detailed explanation of rule balance, separate score displays for baskets vs. points, kick-out hole mechanics; hosts mention tournament borrowing and player complaints when game wasn't available

  • ?

    product_concern: Gottlieb solid-state machines (pre-System 3) had systemic grounding issues and fuse problems requiring significant modifications; poor UI for diagnostics

    high · Zach personal experience: 'grounding issues... a lot of modification... fuses everywhere on the playfield... I hate working on their damn ui system'; difference noted between System 3 improvements

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: WICO produced only one pinball game (Aftor); design/manufacturing practices kept designer identity secret from most staff; contrasts with successful Premier lines (Hoops 879 units, Cueball 5700 units)

    medium · Dennis: 'WICO only made one game... It's a wide body'; hosts discuss secrecy around Aftor designer; production numbers vary widely among Gottlieb Premier machines

  • ?

    design_innovation: Freddy features complex interactive toys (boiler, diverted plunge, wall of souls, ball-catching claws, side glove diverter) representing high mechanical investment despite weak rules

    high · Dennis detailed description of Freddy toys and mechanisms; contrast between 'toy design sophistication vs. basic rule structure'; acknowledgment of manufacturing cost implications

  • ?

    content_signal: Pinball Show Patreon offers exclusive bonus episodes (this being one) with extended discussion and breaking news updates; Joe Balzer revelation added real-time 'breaking news' segment

    high · Episode framing as exclusive Patreon content; hosts pausing discussion to add live Joe Balzer text response; mention of Patreon drop for follow-up content

  • ?

    collector_signal: Hoops commands premium collector pricing ($untied laces reference) despite poor artwork; extreme rarity (879 units) drives secondary market value; street-level format adds cachet

    medium · Dennis: 'People spend so much money on hoops... the untied laces... the horrible art'; contrast with Cueball Wizard's affordability (5700 units produced)

  • ?

    industry_signal: Industry lacks systematic crediting/archival for designers of 1980s-1990s solid-state machines; IPDB incomplete; information siloing within companies suggests institutional practices prioritized secrecy over attribution

    high · Aftor designer hidden for 40 years; Zach unable to find WICO historical documents; IPDB never updated; hosts acknowledge information loss risk as generation passes

    • 2:20
    these top five are. Maybe you'll own one of these in the future. If we start out at number five, what is your fifth highest rated Gottlieb premiere game of all time? We're cutting this off at 1990 and above. Yes, because if we go further back, there's actually some really strong contenders too. Genie! Because of when we went through and did our other stuff, like when we did Dad East and stuff, we really focused more on the DMD era and things like that.
    2:50
    Obviously, 1990 isn't just that, but the one I'll start with for my number five would be Teed Off. Wow. I didn't think that would make your list. And the only reason I bring that up, that's my number five as well. Really? Absolutely. Yeah. Why does that make your list? Well, if I had gone back further, it would not have. Same here. It's a quirky little fun game. I actually prefer it to No Good Gophers.
    3:21
    I may too, if the rules were like, and maybe the art was a little. The rules are almost always going to be a problem with almost any of these games. So basic. But it's just, it's got the gopher wheel. It was a little random. The gopher wheel is fun. You got a couple, it's got a couple of bucks on it. You know, there's the, they have the captive ball. And then there's the, what is it? they've got an interesting hole-in-one shot going on.
    3:54
    It's a three-flipper game. That's fun, yeah. And you hit it up. Yeah. The topper with the little gopher. He actually does look like the Caddyshack gopher. I hate that he's in that snow globe thing. I think it makes it look extra cheap. But in and of itself is fun. You're right. The art is total trash. Yeah, that's bad. And the rules, they're not the worst out of Gottlieb. You can get through it very easy. Right.
    4:25
    But it's a fun shooter. I always thought it's a solid shooter. It's fun. And I don't know. It's just a charming little piece. Yes. Yeah. Okay. So I guess that was both our number fives. Okay. Well, that's interesting. What about number four? For me, number four is Class of 1812. Okay. I like that. The Chattering Teeth. Yes. So this one, and maybe it's just because they've got the chickens doing the – yes, yes.
    4:55
    I'm trying to remember the name of that. I don't know what the Overture is. Yeah. Apparently the Overture of 1812 because it's the class of 1812. So anyway, it's not a DMD game. It's too soon for that. But it's a – it's got a couple of multiballs in it. it's a goofy spooky theme the chattering teeth toy is fun with it I mean toy wise granted it's a few years later Monster Bash is a much more interesting toy setup
    5:28
    but this is a very fun sort of take on monsters going about and doing stuff you got drops with the multi balls to try and go for the beating mechanical heart is sort of a standout aspect too because it's pretty notable where you just get the thump thump So, yeah, kind of a cult classic class. Yeah, I I don't again, I don't seem around very much. I see I see that shows a lot more. I think I've only seen 18, 12, maybe twice, but I played it a lot virtually, too.
    6:00
    So that's part of the reason why I kind of know it, because it was in pinball arcade. It's a tough one to find very much so, even though they made quite a few. I think they made over a thousand of the things, which, yeah, sixteen hundred or so. And speaking of making quite a few, my number four, my fourth favorite Gottlieb premiere game is none other than Brooks and Dunn. That's right. It's not cheating, Dennis. You've played it? Well, playing is such a strong word. Remember they had it at Expo like every year? Yeah, forever.
    6:31
    Not when I was there. I've never seen it. It was always at the last location. I think it was Mike Pacex. Oh, I'm sure if anyone had it, it would be him It never went into production It must be a prototype Yeah, it was that one That they made And it's tongue-in-cheek here Because I have a hard time finding five That I've played enough of That I really enjoy But Brooks and Dunn speaks to me in terms of theme It's the goofiest, hokiest
    7:02
    Most 90s Theme ever I mean, come on I'm a hard-working man I just love it. Red dirt road, neon moon. Sign me up. This is a theme I can always get behind because I love country music and there's nothing like interesting tidbit for the Patreon folks here. I was approached. Who's that from?
    7:33
    A couple of years back, years back. I was approached by someone close to I think Brooks and Dunn it may have been maybe it was the wives of Brooks and Dunn And they wanted to get they wanted to have commissioned a pinball machine for I don know a couple pinball machines for themselves to commemorate Brooks and Dunn I was like, it hasn't already been done, but they wanted to utilize me as a conduit of communication between a manufacturer or somebody who would build that for them.
    8:07
    and I told them just I'm probably not the right guy. So I got them in touch with some people who could help. So I don't know if that ever happened. Oh, that's interesting though. Very interesting. I told them that I would happily get full cowboy garb on and deliver it to them and do a video and stuff like that. But, yeah, Brooks and Dunn. I want a Brooks and Dunn pinball machine. Maybe I'll add that to my list right next to the Michael Jordan pinball machine I'd like to have.
    8:41
    This is good space jam. I've got it. I love it. What's number three on your list? Cubaw Wizard. That's a fun game. Yeah. So Cubaw Wizard, interestingly, was originally meant to be a street level. I didn't know that. Yeah. Yep. John Norris converted it, added the like the ramp and everything to it after Gottlieb Premier made the decision. All right. Street level ain't working. We're going to go back to doing full featured pinball machines.
    9:12
    And so we need to like a toy and stuff. And so that's where he got added in with the ramp and then accommodating the actual like cue ball. Two balls. Yeah. Yeah. To be the the toy in there. I actually don't care for that that that giant cue ball like at all on the day of a captive ball. Right. It's got one ramp. It's like the world's easiest ramp to shoot. Mousing around. Right. Big, wide, assler ramp. But you've got the drops, all those drops in the back, like not 8-ball deluxe, but like 8-ball up off of the side, which is a format that Gottlieb had done in the past, which I really do enjoy.
    9:48
    And the modes are stupid. I like the stupid modes. You got the Clint Eastwood sounding voice Quit talking and start Talking It's in more than one game And so I believe it's in this one as well But of course How for no other reason Than my favorite mode in all of Pinball is in Cueball Wizard Rowdy Ramp Rounds Yeah I got one of those games in Rowdy Ramp Rounds
    10:20
    Rowdy Ramp Rounds It's not a bad game at all. And that's not an overly ugly game. It's kind of cool. No, they have this skull of a... I don't know. I think it's supposed to be a deer or something down below. Again, it's like, what is going on? It's a billiards theme, but it's kind of got some country motifs. There's a wagon wheel, which lights all the modes in the center. It's like billiards meets a chuck wagon. it's a good valued game because whenever they do come up they're usually not blown to hell
    10:55
    and they're usually valued pretty pretty cheap yeah and they uh they it did very well for them it was in fact after that in our era it i believe is the most produced pinball machine from 1990 to 96 with uh yeah they did 5700 units it has a hell of a gimmick i mean yeah that gimmick is just 80s, 90s schlock. It's just perfect for that genre. So they made a lot of them, and that's also part of the reason why they're relatively... I've never owned one, but they're relatively easy to find.
    11:29
    I've seen them at a lot of shows. Here's a game that not everybody's owned. It's also sports themed. My number three Gottlieb premiere is Hoops. The love that you have of Hoops. Mine's number two, so I'll declare that now since it would be my next one to go. So we're rolling to that. But yeah, for me It is like the ultimate cult classic. I think you've helped pave that way especially. But now a tournament darling game. You don't see them hardly ever. People spend so much money on hoops, the untied laces, and the horrible art and everything.
    12:02
    But it's the one street level that people – I think people really would die to have. It's – and I just – it's a creative layout, but it works though. It still works. Yeah, they made less than 900 of them is kind of why it ends up the way it does. And it was the last of the street levels. So that's why it was like 879 because they were just like, I don't know. That was like the cabinets they still had or whatever they did.
    12:34
    Sometimes they worked that way. It's not their least produced street level, though. That would have been Deadly Weapon, which was just over 800. See, I haven't played that. Yeah, I don't think I've played. I've played Title Fight. I've played Silver Slugger. And I think that's it. I haven't played Car Hop. I've played World Challenge Soccer, which is the non-Street Fight version of Car Hop. What about Vegas? I think I have played Vegas. Yeah, I've played Vegas. And, yeah, it is a street level. Why do you love Hoops so much, though?
    13:04
    Well, the layout is creative. And what I like about the Hoops layout, just to kind of give it some kudos, is every other basketball, unless we go way back to like Harlem Globetrotters and stuff, but all the other modern basketball games, like NBA Fast Break, Space Jam, all the rest, like they all try and make you feel like you're on the court. Like here's the basket that you're trying to get the ball at, like the toy will be around, right? They're trying to make it feel like the court. And Hoops instead took all the shots
    13:35
    to try and make it feel like the gameplay. Like here's an alley-oop shot. yep here's a three-pointer right and it's like oh the three-pointer it requires you to make a really far away shot oh the alley-oop actually is going you know doing going around so they tried to kind of capture the spirit of basketball without making it look like a basketball court literally so kind of a you know tip of the hat to ray tanzer for that and then the other thing that i like about it is unlike almost every other gottlieb game that i will have recommended or
    14:07
    exists in the premier lineup, the rules are actually very, very well balanced. It's not a mode-based game. It's all about hurry-ups. It does have multiball, but you do have a few ways you can play it. You can light and rip the spinner and go for those points. You can try and accumulate a lot of points by going ahead and playing in the multiball games. And during those multiballs, it's lock a ball and then get the other second or third ball, depending if you're in a two or three ball locked their hurry ups as well.
    14:39
    It will release the balls if you, if you don't do it fast enough. And so you also have the basket gimmick, which isn't as much of a, it's fun in a casual setting in terms of like getting your extra ball and stuff is all about accumulating baskets. And there are multipliers to increase the baskets. There's a separate score display to show you baskets. And in fact, if you want one of the things I have done before is a step hit playing for points. we play for baskets and NBA fast break did that too. It originally came out playing for baskets and people hated it and you can
    15:10
    switch it in the software and they switched the default, but with hoops, you have two different score displays. So you're actually able to see alpha numerically what your score is. And then they have numeric scores for the baskets as separate displays. So anyway, this is a few pieces The art is laughably trashy Um that what makes it good That it That what makes it good That it It a really good game And it was a tournament darling before I liked it People realize, and that's why they like it. The rules are actually really good for tournament play.
    15:40
    Also, it's a really good game for stall ball. If you've ever done stall ball, where people will play until a ball is locked, and then you move, because there's so many kick-out holes that will temporarily, yeah, they'll give you a stopping point. Right. And it's just – it's not like a total nuclear annihilation kickout, but it will only briefly be held, and then you can do a rotation. And I've lent it out before for like tournaments in the area. I did that once, and they – I wasn't there the day they did Stalball, but they gave me a photo of all these people playing, and they were like it was – people complained when I didn't let them have it the next year.
    16:14
    I let them have some other Gottlieb games instead, and they were like, why is Hoops not back? I'm surprised that Hoops ends up at number two. I can't wait to see number one. My number two Gottlieb game would be Stargate. I really like Stargate. That's my number one. Okay. All right. So we're in unison a lot of these things. But, yeah, Stargate for me is their most thematic, their most world under glass. I think that the layout is just so much fun. I love the artwork, oddly enough, on this whole game.
    16:46
    I love the color palette they use. I love the toys, as goofy as they may be. I love the molded stuff in the pops that lifts up. Some of it is just over-the-top ridiculous. They shouldn't even have done it. I don't know how they made money. It seems like a high-bomb game. And I don't mind the theme either. I think we don't have that theming enough in pinball. So for me, it's Stargate. And there's plenty of modes. There's plenty of stuff to do. It's not the most difficult game.
    17:16
    It's not the easiest game. But it's just well-rounded. And unlike many Gottliebs, it is well-rounded enough, I would say. That's why I ended up putting it at number one. Yeah, it's got the toys and stuff, so it's more interesting of a machine than hoops is. But the rules here were also balanced well. But you actually have mode-based play. Also, they kind of helped alleviate, I thought, some of the – people get frustrated with this era of Gottlieb because of the pointy flippers that are actually really easy to trap up with.
    17:50
    This game had some pretty steep ramps, which I thought – it's not the easiest one to shoot. So it's not like baby's first pinball. And so with all of that, this is another Ray Tanzer also. Yeah. He works for Stern, for those that don't know. He's an engineer with Stern. He hasn't done design in years, but – I say we haven't heard from – yeah. Do you think he might ever get the – I don't know, the desire to do a design? You know, once upon a time – well, I guess I – I don't know if I've ever expressed this publicly.
    18:24
    I've talked with Tony on Eclectic Gamers about it privately before, but I've wanted to – I don't like doing interviews very much. I've wanted to interview Ray Tanzer. I really have about going – just to go over his design career because at least according to IPDB, he designed as late as 2009 working on – what was it? NBA, I think, for Stern. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah, and I think he was given a design credit. Now, maybe he was just doing some mechanical engineering because that's his background. He's a mechanical engineer, and then Gottlieb started to use him.
    18:58
    He and John Norris both worked on Stargate, but he had a few standalone games like Hoops. He did Class of 1812 as well, so I actually liked his designs quite a bit, And I assume he's just more of an engineer, and so that was the angle he ended up going for. But I'm assuming he's still at Stern. I know he's who oversaw their big move when they did the first move to the big factory. Yeah, I forgot he was at Stern.
    19:30
    Yeah. I think he's still there, but I don't know. I've never heard an interview with him ever. That's the one game that you'll see a lot of collectors own that don't own any other Gottliebs. They'll still own like a Stargate. I see that oftentimes. And it did pretty well too. It was, what was it? It was over 3,000 units, I think. Yeah, 3,600. So they made quite a few. So it's another one that's not hard to find. It's one that, oh man, people are going to really hate me saying this. It's one where I enjoy the pen more than I do the film.
    20:02
    It's usually the other way around. People left Stargate as a film. That's interesting. I thought it was boring. I think a lot of the – I could see that. I've seen the film a few times. It's okay. It's not my favorite Kurt Russell experience by a long shot. But I know a lot of people who are really big into Stargate are more into the show that came out after the movie with MacGyver. Oh, yeah. That's right. I didn't watch the show. My number one Gottlieb. Any guesses as to what is missing here?
    20:33
    Oh, gosh. Well, let's see. Thinking about the era and everything else that's gone into it, I'm going to say Freddy. That's correct. Freddy, A Nightmare on Elm Street. I love the theming. I just love the theme in general. And I still think we could probably have another Freddy pinball machine or A Nightmare on Elm Street pinball machine. I love There's so much I love about this game And rules is not one of them
    21:04
    But a lot of other things I don't believe or not I don't mind The layout I think it's I like the mechanisms I like The boiler I like the Plunge that can be diverted I love the wall of souls that Rubbery drop target Cover I like the main toy And Freddy spitting out the ball I love the Vox I just, the claws that catch the ball and throw them back in, the glove on the side that diverts the ball. I just, there's so much that I really like about this game.
    21:37
    I don't even mind the artwork and the music. I just really, really enjoy. I love the, you know, one, two, Friday's coming. And you get all of that. I wish the rules were a little bit, man, if anybody were to do a 2.0 rule set on this thing. but I think they tried to do something with the rules with like the dream world and stuff I've heard John John John Norris was doing the he ended up having to do the rules for almost all the Gottlieb games after um after a while and so I think I've heard him talk about working the rules
    22:11
    on this but layout wise this is another Ray Tanzer yeah he did it with Bill Parker but it's nothing over the top it's just fresh and different I really just liked it and yeah I love it i yeah ray um ray had a lot of really interesting design philosophy that's why i found it so interesting ray day get ray tanzer we need him we need we need we need more tanzer in our life and yeah chrysal wants to interview him and chrysal doesn't want to interview anybody chrysal doesn't want to interview gary stern he didn't care he just wants tanzer
    22:45
    we should give a shirt that says Tanzermania yeah he was the main one and then well you know I also kind of wanted to though he's done interviews before Balser but my only reason actually I have to hedge because there was a there was a game Wicco did you ever know the part maker Wicco They did like a lot of coils
    23:20
    Yeah, but I don't know any. Right. So they – there is a game that Wicco made called Aftor from 1984. I know what you're talking about. Yeah. Aft-Tor. Yes, Aft-Tor. And it was like – I think it's the first game that was alphanumeric or something. It was a first. But it was never been disclosed who designed it. The designer, like, Wicco kept it a secret, like, according to the artist.
    23:50
    The other people working on the game were not allowed to know who the designer was. That's weird. I actually, through LinkedIn, looked up who else was, like, working at Wicco at the time, who was still, like, working somewhere. And I started reaching out to people who just worked in – like I reached out to some guy. I'm like, hey, I do a pinball thing. You guys did a game called Aftor. I saw on your LinkedIn profile you worked for the company in 1984. I want to know who designed it.
    24:21
    And the guy wrote me back and goes, I have no idea. I was in accounting, and I didn't have anything directly involved to do with the pinball division. But here's another guy who's now retired. Let me give you him. and I reached out to him and he I think I want to think someone I'm super speculative but I want to think that guy did follow up with me and he goes I think you want to talk to Joe Balser and I'm like Joe Balser isn't listed as having anything to do with Wico so I've wanted I don't necessarily an interview
    24:54
    per se I want to ask Joe Balser if he is or he knows that who the designer was on I think we should be – it's been 40 years. I think we can now know. I think the non-disclosures are expired. Let's do it. I just want to know. I've never owned it. I almost bought one once off Craigslist, but I'm like, I just want to know. I'll text Bolzer. All this history is being lost. We've already lost a lot of it. That's where I was glad with things like TopCast and stuff came around when you still had Steve Kordek
    25:28
    and Wayne Nyans and such to answer a lot of the questions from the EM era, but we're starting to lose a lot of the solid state era now too. And it's just like, it'd be nice to know. I've got, I'll text Bolster. What do you want me to ask him? Do you know who designed Aftor for WICO, W-I-C-O, in 1984? You want me to infer and say, did you have anything to do with Aftor? Sure. It's more presumptive closer there
    25:59
    I see, that's very psychology of you I'm adding the dash too Where I'm all like Tell me you designed Rico Rico's after Where are they? Where are they going? Why did they only make one game? It's a wide body I shouldn't even want to talk about it Man, these Patreon people are getting the goods here hopefully this is still his number and patreon people don't write in
    26:33
    telling us that hyperball had alphanumeric before aftor that's not a pinball machine it doesn't count hopefully I haven't messaged Joe since 2022 so hopefully he's like who the fuck is this how'd you get my number that's why if you wanted to ever interview Joe Balzer Joe needs a handler because he always gives too much info. The flip-out handler can help him. He gives too much info. Like, no, Joe, you can't say that. No. I love Joe Pulser.
    27:04
    Me and Greg from Straight Outta the Middle, we just have such a big spot in our hearts for Joe Pulser. Love that guy. Breaking news here at the pinball show. I did get a response back from my buddy Joe Pulser. You did? I did, yeah. That's why we had to go live again here. Oh, okay. Were we discussing that on our Patreon? Okay, so maybe this will be a Patreon drop. He said, hey, Zach, what's going on? How you doing? He said, I was at WECO when the game was built.
    27:35
    No design work from me, as it was done by Claude Fernandez. He says, I helped build and troubleshoot test games in the field. I still have the back glass. It was a pretty interesting back glass. Wow. It was like a Mad Max thing. That's – okay.
    28:06
    Claude Fernandes. Claude Fernandes did some stuff. Yeah, no, that's the thing. I went back to IPDB because I was like – I was wondering if he got credited for anything on Aftor, just not designed, but no. He did. I mean, I think his most famous game for me is Flash Gordon. Flash! Okay, so that's really interesting because he and Steve Ritchie felt like he took a lot of the design ideas
    28:36
    that he saw when he bailed on working for Williams and took it over to Bally. That's why Flash Gordon kind of looks a bit like Black Knight and there was another one that Steve claims Claude kind of, he saw the designs on his table and kind of now, I personally think Flash Gordon is a better game than Black Knight so I think the improvements were made that's a tough call okay Claude, alright, interesting shout out to Joe Balzer we all need some more Balzer in our life
    29:08
    I've always just wondered, it's not really an interview worthy thing, I was just kind of like especially if it's a known And after our game looked like it was done by someone who knew what they were doing. Do you think Joe cares that I gave that information? He might. He might ask if that still needs to remain private. But you can say Dennis says thank you because I just wanted to know personally. Because the thing is, I know, like, in theory, IPDB would love to be updated hypothetically. They never seem to update anything.
    29:39
    But hypothetically, the people would love for it to be updated because, you know, if when Balser dies, who's left who would tell you this? It's not – like I always assumed it was – I actually looked at seeing if I could get access to the historical WICO documents to search it out. Wow. It's who you know. It really is who you know. They just didn't tell – they didn't tell the artists or anyone else who did the layout. And we saw the same with Home Pin when Thunderbirds came out, but nobody gives a shit about that fucking game.
    30:09
    That's true. And how would we have known that Barry Orsler hated Popeye as much as he did without me asking? That's a fair point. Yeah, the thing about – I didn't know that Balser was at WICO. It was another WICO employee who had told me he was there. That's where I was so fuzzy on what he had said was that he thought he would know. And I was like, okay, well, he would probably have done it. But no. That's fascinating. If people are seeing this, then Joe didn't care. And if they're not, Dennis, you know.
    30:42
    Well, thank you for finding – I appreciate that, Zach. I guess that's the discussion. That's the top five Gottlieb premier. That was fun. More fun than I thought it would be. Number four did amaze them. Right. I'm a hardworking man.