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The Pinball Show Ep 148: Numbers Don't Why

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 58m·analyzed·Feb 27, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Stern Jaws production updates, The Princess Bride pricing, Haggis slowdown, Jaws first impressions.

Summary

The The The Pinball Show discusses aging and life experiences, updates on JAWS (Pro) production schedule (including parts delays and code updates), The Princess Bride P3 announcement with significant price increases, Haggis Pinball production slowdown announcement, and first impressions of Jaws gameplay including its strong theme integration and Keith Elwin distinctive design style.

Key Claims

  • JAWS (Premium/LE) production experienced a parts delay (LE-specific part, possibly foil decals) that halted production for about a week before resuming

    high confidence · Zach Minney discussing Stern production updates; confirmed by email from Stern Pinball to distributors

  • Stern is releasing Star Wars (Pro) and Premium in March 2024, the first run since August 2022, with no more planned in 2024

    high confidence · Zach Minney, Stern production schedule

  • The Princess Bride P3 module pricing is $3,750 (standard) and $5,000 (limited edition, 750 units)

    high confidence · Craig Bobby, news segment

  • The Princess Bride full P3 machine pricing ranges from $11,500 (standard) to $13,750 (collector's edition, 500 units)

    high confidence · Craig Bobby, news segment

  • Haggis Pinball announced they are slowing production to adjust manufacturing methodology and move away from tight supply chain dependency

    high confidence · Craig Bobby, quoting letter from Haggis founder Damien to owners

  • Jaws code update version .850 includes Bounty Hunt Multiball with stages, Celebration Multiball, and gear collection mechanics

    high confidence · Zach Minney discussing code update details

  • Keith Elwin playfield layout feels distinctly different from traditional Stern designs despite using familiar mechanics

    medium confidence · Dennis Creasel opinion on Jaws design philosophy

  • JAWS (Pro) machines are experiencing airballs from the chum line acrylic inset near the fin target, addressable via flipper power adjustment or screw tweaking

    medium confidence · Zach and Dennis discussing Jaws technical issues and fixes from Pinside reports

Notable Quotes

  • “Every time we do an episode, I feel like I'm aging... I go into this, like, existential, almost like I'm stoned without being stoned. I'm going to die. What's my purpose?”

    Zach Minney @ Early episode — Sets existential tone for opening segment on aging and mortality; personal but relatable to audience

  • “The numbers don't mean anything. It's all, who knows what it means. It might mean something, but maybe only they internally understand.”

    Zach Minney @ Discussing Jaws code version .850 — Humorous but genuine observation about code version numbering in pinball industry; becomes a running joke

  • “This is like the Turducken of Multiballs, because the Celebration Multiball is inside of the Bounty Hunt Multiball.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Discussing Jaws code features — Vivid analogy for nested multiball structure in new Jaws update

  • “The shots on this, I can't downplay them. The shots are fucking great. I love shooting this game.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Jaws first impressions discussion — Strong endorsement of Keith Elwin's shot design on Jaws

  • “I don't need a freaking give me ramp. I don't have to have that. No gimme ramps required.”

    Dennis Creasel @ Discussing Jaws left wave ramp on Pro model — Opinion on shot difficulty preference, contrasts with modern accessibility trends

  • “Inconceivable!”

    Craig Bobby @ Multiple points during Princess Bride segment — Running Princess Bride reference throughout news segment; thematic consistency

  • “It includes Celebration Multiball, which is essentially a victory mode for Bounty Hunt Multiball.”

    Zach Minney @ Jaws code update discussion — Explanation of nested multiball reward structure in new code

Entities

Zach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonCraig BobbypersonStern PinballcompanyMultimorphiccompanyHaggis PinballcompanyKeith ElwinpersonJawsgame

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Stern Jaws LE production halted for approximately one week due to LE-specific parts shortage, possibly foil decals; delayed remainder of 1,000 unit LE production run

    high · Zach reported email from Stern indicating parts delay, temporary shift to Premium production, then resumption of LE line; observed on Pinside by community members

  • ?

    code_update: Jaws version .850 code update adds Bounty Hunt Multiball with stages, Celebration Multiball victory mode, gear collection mechanics, and numerous sound/lighting/rule additions

    high · Zach provided detailed breakdown of update features; described as 'healthy dose of update' for newest cornerstone title

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Keith Elwin's Jaws layout exhibits distinctive design approach different from traditional Stern, including strong theme integration via sound/lighting, moving fin flipper mechanic, motorized chum line target, and strong shot design

    high · Dennis and Zach praised integration, layout distinctiveness, and shot quality; Keith-isms noted while feeling fresh compared to standard Stern approach

  • ?

    product_concern: Some Jaws machines experiencing airball issues from chum line acrylic inset near fin target; addressable via flipper power reduction or screw adjustment

    medium · Zach reported airball occurrences on his machine; Dennis has also experienced airballs; Pinside users documented adjustment methods with 4-5 screws

  • $

    market_signal: Multimorphic Princess Bride P3 pricing shows significant increases: module $3,750-$5,000 (vs. historical P3 pricing around $2-3K); full P3 machine $11,500-$13,750

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.356

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching the Pinball Show. This week on the Pinball Show, Dennis and I talk about evidence of growing old. We provide updates to Stern's pinball production schedule, and we discuss Jaws first impressions, the new mod where Shark eats balls, new titles starting this year, the Princess Bride game launch, and our thoughts regarding this new P3 offering, pinball market train. And for our club members, we provide exclusive discussion surrounding the recent update from Damien at Haggis Pinball, what we think it means, how we think it may pan out in the future, as well as my take on the messaging from the distribution side of things. We'll get a lot of content and info this week, but we just call it another golden episode of the Pinball Show.
1:03
Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. It's time for the Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality. If you can call what we got last night sleep. Oh, we got a few hours. Blurred lines, fighting like hell Try to keep my eyes wide open Always running from, running to Running late, oh running out of It's the return that keeps us going Hey everybody, what's going on? This is the Pinball Show. This is Zach Minney and this is Dennis Creasel and this is everything you've been wanting the last couple of weeks.
1:49
Yay. People are excited, Dennis. They are. I bet they're so excited they're just standing there, standing room only, packed in like sardines. Oh, you know where we're going with this. I do, but the listener does not. Every time we do an episode, I feel like I'm aging. And I am showing my age more and more, and it's depressing. Because then I go into this, like, existential, almost like I'm stoned without being stoned. I'm going to die. What's my purpose? So it's a constant reminder. Do you think that's supposed to happen as you get older? Like your fear increases of your existence and how long you're going to be here and what little time you have? I think it's fairly common. I think the expression that you're familiar with or should be familiar with is midlife crisis. Okay, so that's what that is. I think so. Okay. Nicole and I have been trying to take time and experience things, whether it's this last week we went to an Indiana Pacers game. It's at Courtside. Oh, Courtside. So much spending there above ground pool money. Well, it's like the checklist thing. I feel like I'm going to die, so I'm trying to checklist stuff. I want to sit Courtside at the NBA game. Not that I would do that again, but I want to do that kind of thing. I still have the checkbox of, like, sitting first class in a plane. Yeah, I've never sat first class. Oh, really? Yeah, never, never. Generally not on planes the size that even have a first class. So I've not done that. Maybe I'll try to tackle that soon before going broke, apparently. So we're trying to check off these things. Listen, I don't know if you're like that as well. Email us at pinballshow at gmail.com. Tell us if you have those. There's some called a bucket list. I'm not keen on buckets in and of itself. I'm not a bucket guy. I don't know. I'm more of a list kind of fellow. Lists feel like they can be as long as you want them. Buckets are pretty, I mean, you make a bucket too big, you can't lift it. Isn't that the whole, God, can God make a boulder big enough that he can't?
The Princess Bride
game
Flip N Out Pinballcompany
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
Colin MacAlpineperson
Josh Kuglerperson
Matt Andrewsperson
Damienperson
Jack Dangerperson
Pinsideorganization
Cary Elwesperson
Mandy Patinkinperson
Andre the Giantperson

high · Craig Bobby detailed all pricing tiers; attributed to 'pinflation' and licensing costs; compared to American Pinball's description of licensing as 'dead money'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Multimorphic implementing strong limited edition strategy with Princess Bride: 750-unit LE limit at $5,000 module price and 500-unit Collector's Edition at $13,750 full P3 with replica swords, custom glass, signed certificates

    high · Craig Bobby detailed all edition tiers and collector's edition inclusions

  • ?

    business_signal: Haggis Pinball announcing significant production slowdown to restructure supply chain dependencies and manufacturing methodology; causes concern among backorder customers

    high · Craig Bobby quoted official letter from Haggis founder Damien; noted customer concerns about refunds; compared to Dutch Pinball precedent of prolonged delays

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Stern pivoting Star Wars, Godzilla, and Jurassic Park to once-yearly production cycles with no additional runs planned in 2024; suggests capacity constraints and strategic release timing

    high · Zach stated multiple times 'no more planned in 2024' for Star Wars Pro/Premium, Godzilla Pro, and Jurassic Park Premium; explicitly anticipates ongoing trend

  • ?

    announcement: Multimorphic officially announced Princess Bride P3 game ahead of Texas Pinball Festival late March; dynamic gameplay trailer released showing features from film including Cliffs of Insanity ramp mechanic

    high · Craig Bobby's news segment; described as second manufacturer announcement before TPF after Stern's Jaws

  • ?

    product_launch: Stern shipping Jaws Premium machines as of recording date (Monday of episode); LE remainder in production with expected completion by end of month; Star Wars Pro/Premium, Godzilla Pro, and Jurassic Park Premium scheduled for March

    high · Zach reported receiving Flippin' Out Pinball's premium units on Monday; observed LE resumption on Pinside; referenced production schedule

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin's design philosophy emphasizes strong shot flow and distinctive layouts; avoids 'gimme ramps'; implements moving mechanical elements like fin flipper and motorized targets; players cite superior shot quality

    medium · Dennis praised shot design, noted Keith-isms while feeling fresh; rejected gimme ramps philosophy; community appears to buy Keith Elwin games more than other designers per discussion

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community consensus that Jaws desperately needed code updates at launch; .850 update widely praised as substantial and addressing critical gaps in game depth

    medium · Zach: 'a lot of people that I've spoken with who have played Jaws have said it is in desperate need of code updates'; update described as 'healthy dose' with 'lot of room' remaining for development

    • 3:58
    Back to the story. So this last, two weeks ago, right before we did the podcast, right after, I don't know who gives a shit, But we went to this concert. Nicole's friend said, hey, you guys want to go to a concert with us? And we're like, you know, we're like Jim Carrey in that failed film, Yes Man. Yeah, we'll go. And it was the Red Clay Strays. I'm not a big music person, but a rockabilly, folksy, bluesy kind of music. Phenomenal music. But we go up to Bloomington, Indiana. I forgot what the damn, the Blackbird, the Bluebird. It's a bird of some sort. It's this club that all these famous musicians go through and play. So they invite us up. We go up there, and we know we're getting old because we didn't realize what we're getting ourselves into. Dennis, when's the last time you've been to a small gig kind of venue where you listen to a popular band? I don't do that. I don't either. And there's a reason. We learned really quick. Like, fast forward to about an hour left, our friends looked around, and they didn't see Nicole and I because we had, you know, we're old. We wanted to take a break. We wanted to sit down. So what this was, they shove you in here like sardines. We thought we were going to, like, a lounge. We get a table and chairs. You sit and you listen to the band play, right? And you have a waitress maybe that comes every now and then, but it's a concert arena. But, no, they shove you in like sardines. I sure do not. I was touching four people at any given moment throughout the entirety of the four to five hour show. And it was just uncomfortable and people sweat and they're gross. And everybody had to have COVID at that point at the end of that show. Had to. There's no way. I was more personal with the guy next to me than I was with my wife. What a horrible experience. Who likes that? Who enjoys that? Everybody else seemed to be enjoying themselves. I did not. So we had about an hour left, and Nicole and I were like, yeah, standing on concrete this long is not working for our old and frail bodies. So we went next door to the Mexican cantina and got some chips and queso. Mm, and that sounds tasty. Right? Now, that is more enjoyable. You should have brought those pin mats. Oh, yeah. To stand on. The stern pinball anti-fixing player mats. We totally should have done that. But I thought to myself, like, is this normal? Do people do this? Young people. People that aren't near death. I mean, I was pretty inebriated. And I thought that would get me through it. It didn't matter. It didn't take away the pains in your, the pins in your feet. It really didn't. I went to the bathroom. Not that I want to yelp it, but not more than two stars that bathroom. It just wasn't, wasn't feeling it. The concert was phenomenal, though. The band of Red Clay Strays, if anybody's heard them, absolutely phenomenal. Wonderful, wonderful band. band, but no, I don't want to do that again. I'm not a concert person in general. I don't see the point in going to a concert, and I know we're going to get some flack for this, Dennis, but I don't get what I'm supposed to do at a concert. I need something, like if I'm watching a show off-Broadway or something, I've got a story, we've got a plot, we've got some nice acting, right? I get some different scenes. I understand that. If I go see a magician, they're showing me tricks, They're illusions, Michael.
    7:27
    That kind of stuff. But a concert, I listen to music when I'm tinkering on a pinball machine. When I'm running, I don't run. When I'm working out, I don't do that either. When I'm driving in a car, that's when I listen to music. Are you supposed to stay? It's almost like Ron Burgundy, where do I put my hands? What am I supposed to do? Am I supposed to dance? Am I not? Am I supposed to sing? When's the last time you've been to a concert, Dennis? maybe 20 years. Oh, wow. Did sticks come into Kansas City or something?
    8:01
    It was Crosby, Stills, and Nash opening for Chicago. Oh, you know what? That's nice. I always wanted to go to Bonnaroo, but I think that's just more, again, quote, unquote, the experience of checking that box. You know. Well, this was at an outdoor amphitheater, so I was able to sit. But let's just say in one court time, and I was done by the time Chicago had been in for a little bit. I was just like, this is – and this was back when people could still smoke around. So it was just – I still remember this woman in front of me. She was smoking two cigarettes. She had one in each hand. Rock on, sister. Smoke them if you got them. She was probably a professional concert goer. But I was not. I was a mere amateur. And I was just like, this is too much. Were you snow angling the mud? You were like, yeah, man. No, it was dry, isn't it? Oh, and it was like July, so it was super hot. Yeah. Super hot. Sultry.
    8:58
    So, yeah, I don't see a reason to go back to a venue that doesn't have seating. Yeah. But that was what it was like at, because I went to KU for my undergrad. Sure. And I went to, KU's real big into basketball, real big. Sure, yeah. So I went, because students get discounted tickets. Well, for the student section, which are benches, but the student section doesn't sit. They're standing on their feet the entire time. And I just didn't expect that. That's rough. So I only did it once because I was like, nope, I don't want to stand the whole time. So, yeah, we have things planned throughout the year here, but they're more off-Broadway. They're comedians, that kind of stuff. Yeah. You know, I don't get it. Well, you've checked it off your list, and that's the important thing. It's checked off the list, and I wonder what the last concert Craig Bobby's been to. What do you think, Dan? Well, hopefully he'll tell us here. It's probably some electronic bullshit. He's probably some, like, syrup and stuff. Yes. Like the last time Tim Hortons performed.
    10:06
    Tim Hortons. Live at the Tim Hortons. Eh? Hello and welcome back to another edition of the Pinball Show's Top Stories. I'm Craig Bobby. Well, hot off the pinball presses, it looks like the boutique pinball manufacturer Multimorphic is the second pinball manufacturer of 2024, after Stern did so with Jaws, to announce their new title in advance of the Texas Pinball Festival in late March with the release of the Princess Bride Pinball. Say what? Yes, based on this theme of the 90s comedy hits starring Cary Elwes as Wesley, Mandy Patakian as Intego Montoya, Robin Wright as the Princess Bride, Chris Sarandon as Pris Humperdinck, and Christopher Guest as Count Rugen, and of course, who could forget the unforgettable Andre the Giant, who plays Fezzik. As an aside, looking at the cast, I think the most startling of all is remembering that Manny Patakian plays the charismatic and dynamic Intego Montoya, who I mistakenly swore was played by Kevin Kline and not Patakian, who has become best known for his serious secret government agency role in the decade-long running Homeland series. Inconceivable! But anyway, I digress. Speaking of dynamic, the P3 game was revealed using a very dynamic edited gameplay trailer taking a page out of Stern and J.J.P.'s playbook, showing a young woman having fun playing the prince's bride machine while the video shows the game's features using clips and soundbites from the movie, including Humperdinck's castle, Miracle Max's hut, and the infamous Cliffs of Insanity, where the pinball ingeniously climbs up the molded plastic cliff on the playfield.
    12:04
    The game's art was created by Matt Andrews, the rules by Colin McAlpine and the former American pinball programmer Josh Kugler on software. Now on the pricing side, it appears that pinflation, and as American pinball's David Fix would describe it as, dead money spent on licensing, has come home to roost at Multimorphic now as well, with this release as the P3 module alone will now retail for $3,750 US for the standard edition and $5,000 U.S. for the limited edition, limited to 750 units. At the high end, their collector's edition, which also is limited to 500 units, is not available as a module only. For a full P3 machine and the module, the cost will be $11,500 U.S. for the standard edition, $12,750 for the limited edition, and $13,750 for the collectors. Inconceivable! The highest trim level in the collector's edition of the game, of course limited to 500 units, includes the replica Intego Montoya swords mounted to the cabinet, bronze powder-coated hardware, and a custom backbox LCD framing glass, a numbered plaque, a signed certificate of authenticity, and more. The question at the end of the day with any new release is, will it actually sell? There's no doubt that The Princess Bride, though a Main Street hit back in the day, has faded into more of a cute comedy cult classic these days, so will enough people want to put that machine in their home, a machine which, by its own right, has its own cult following? Much like their most recent Weird Al Yankovic machine, which was a great seller for Multimorphic, I believe the Princess Bride license is strong enough to pull in some additional buyers who have yet to take the plunge into the world of Multimorphic P3. Quickly flipping over to our other top story, we go to the land down under in Hengist Pinball, the Australian manufacturer of Fathom Revisited, TELTS, and hopefully the recently announced Centaur Revisited. Taking a quote from a recent letter sent to Haggis owners by the company's founder, Damien, we have made the decision to adjust our manufacturing methodology to move away from a tight dependency on the supply chain to support our forecasted throughput better. To support this change, we will need to further slow down production activities, recapitalize and refocus our procurement strategies and partner offerings. And while the emails certainly sent a chill down the spines of buyers that are now waiting on their Fathom or Centaur revisited machines from Haggis, and I'm sure prompted more than one customer to call their distributor or credit card company to ask for a refund, Haggis reiterated in their note that they are not in fact stopping operations. However, they will, quote, refocus to improve their ability to build the highest quality games in the world. Now, will Haggis take a page out of Dutch Pinball and slow production down so much that it will literally take years for them to produce all the Fathom and Centaur games currently on backorder? Or is this simply another production blip in a long line of production blips with the boutique manufacturer Haggis in their short time in the pinball hobby? Well, you know what I say, we shall have to wait and see. Okay, Zach and Dennis, that about wraps it up this week for me. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you flip side.
    15:31
    Thank you, Craig, for the hit update to all those news. Unfortunately, we didn't find out about his concerts, Zach. Yeah, maybe next episode. But maybe we can find out about some Stern Pinball production updates from you. Yeah, you're damn right. We're about to. This past week, they were building some Jaws LEs. You got mine? Yeah, I heard. Remember, did you hear about the slight delay? And now it sounds like the slight delay is solved. It's lifted. So they did start, as we announced a couple weeks ago, they were going to start on the LEs. They did do that. They were rocking them out of the factory there at Stern Pinball up in Elk Grove. Are they in Elk Grove Village anymore? You know, I thought they still were, but I'm not positive of that. That's a new place. So they were flying out the doors, and then to a screeching halt, though, all of a sudden, we get an email from Stern Pinball that said, hey, we're going to have some delays on the remainder of the LEs. We weren't able to build them all, all 1,000. Because I think it was a parts delay. I don't know in particular what parts. There was rumors like the foil decals or the, I don't know. We know it was an LE-specific part, however. Sure. Yeah, because they said, we're going to move on to the premium for the time being until we get the part, and then we'll throw that back on the line as well. All will be good. So they even had, let's see, I guess as of this recording, they did ship some premium, or they're starting to ship some premiums. We get some of ours today, Monday.
    16:55
    And then they, I don't know if they're done with the LEs yet. I know that they did start production again after that considerable pause for maybe a week or so. But they have started again because I heard the people that were saying, damn it, I didn't get mine. Because we were fortunate enough to get all of ours, and we didn't get any of the pulls and any of the halt. But the people had to wait. I did see them on Pennside, I think, yesterday or the day before, say, hey, mine's supposed to come this week. So it looks like they're running the remainder of the Jaws LEs, and they're running Jaws Premium probably until the end of the month, I would guess. Yeah, that makes sense, because they've got the Star Wars plans in March. Oh, yeah.
    17:42
    Yeah, that is coming in March, Star Wars Pro and Premium. Remember, this is the first run they've had of Star Wars Pro and Premium since August of 2022. And there are no more planned in 2024. So get your Star Wars if you want it now. Still a very hot title regardless of what people say about that Hyperloop feature.
    18:03
    Also in March is Godzilla Pro. No more planned in 2024. So get that one as well. Late March is still Jurassic Park Premium. No more planned in 2024. Again, as Denison and I have said At Nauseam We're looking at Stern doing Some of these titles and levels Just once a year kind of thing And I anticipate seeing more and more of that And then we've given you the rundown in the past Of what's coming in April, May, June Q3, Q4, etc The only thing we don't know for certain Is when that next cornerstone is going to be We are guessing, I'm guessing May Maybe an announcement late April But May That's what I'm guessing Stern Pimble accessories This is interesting So we didn't get all of the UV lighting accessories Not as many emails As I feared So thanks for that But they were able to get parts And for the most part those are shipping now So no more Worries about delayed Stranger Things accessories If you want the UV kits They're in stock, the armor's in stock The art blades, the shooter knob, it's all in stock, ready to go at your distributor, orsterandpinball.com, or throw a bone to me at flippingoutpinball.com. They still plan on doing Iron Maiden Topper. Now they're saying, we might not have February, maybe March. So we'll see there. Iron Maiden Topper coming any time between now and March. We get a code update for Jaws.
    19:39
    Yay. Version .850. Kind of low, honestly. .85 leaves a lot of room. I know it's all relative. The numbers don't mean anything. It's all, who knows what it means. It might mean something, but maybe only they internally understand. I will say, though, a lot of people that I've spoken with who have played Jaws have said it is in desperate need of code updates. It was desperate need. Yes. It needs air, oxygen.
    20:15
    That's a lot of room. It does kind of, that number does say something. Yes. I think it does say something. I agree. We don't believe it's devoid of all meaning, not here on the Pinball Show. That's right. We love to talk about code updates. Within this code update includes things such as Bounty Hunt Multiball, where you end up battling the shark. It includes Celebration Multiball, which is essentially a victory mode for Bounty Hunt Multiball. I do like that Bounty Hunt Multiball has stages throughout. I think that's the one. I think it's interesting. This is like the Turducken of Multiballs, though, because the Celebration Multiball is inside of the Bounty Hunt Multiball. Right. It's almost like Dwight Sullivan is coding this thing. Victory Multiball. Added gear features. A lot of people were waiting for this. and I think it gets some adjustments throughout the next couple of months. But you collect different gears now, and they all have their own little perks, which is interesting, whether it's points or two wrecks or blah, blah, blah. And then you collect all six of them, listener, and then Quint is going to make you a cash offer. It's points, but going to make you a cash offer to purchase all of them from you. And then there's many other additions and rules, modifications, additions, sound effects, shaker effects, call-outs, lighting, etc. It's a pretty healthy dose of update for Joel's pinball. Stern Pinball's newest cornerstone release, designed by Keith Allen. All right. And I think I messed up poor Elizabeth's name. It's Gieski.
    21:50
    Gieski. I was thinking, I was thinking Gieski. Yes. Now I remember it. I remember it now with the little John, y'all Gieski. Y'all Gieski. That's how I remember it. Sorry.
    22:06
    Rules aside, updates aside, have you played Jaws yet? Yes. The pro model, though. Only the pro. Oh. Which isn't too surprising given probably not a lot of LEs on location. No, I don't think so. There might be some premiums in the future. Some locations do premiums, but not many LEs.
    22:26
    All right. So why don't we should just talk about maybe not a whole full-blown things. We like things we don't. But if you've played this thing, maybe we talk about it. Because I've played the Pro very little. Very little Pro. I've played the LE. I haven't had much time to play mine. But, I mean, enough to see what they're doing and to get a feel for the shots and whatnot. How much time have you had on Jaws? Only a couple of games. Okay. It's a basic feel of the shot.
    22:59
    You know, I've gotten into some modes and stuff. What was your first thought looking at the game? Did anything stand out in a good, bad way?
    23:11
    Overall, I liked it. Actually, one of the things that I think I lost sight of, because I looked at so many photos, is how well the sound callout integration, the whole theme integration, it's really strong on it. I should have just known that, but I didn't think about it. And then when I started to hear it on location, I thought, wow, I can actually hear it, which I wasn't expecting. And then I was like, you know what? No, this actually integrates really well. I mean, in terms of the game and the play of it, it was the whole chum bucket and that whole thing about it and the lighting as it gets more red as you chum up the water. I really did like that part of it. Yeah. Even like spinner sounds, the buoy bells, like it all, I'm with you. It's integrated very well with the sounds of the game, and they're only going to get better. But I'm with you on that, to go off what you said. To me, like the ambience of the game, the lighting and the sounds, it feels like you get the sights, you get the sounds. It almost feels to me, listening, like at some point you're going to get the smell of the sea air, especially like the LE when I see the interior art blades are kind of part of the water and the dock and stuff too and the Orca. It feels like it's very much world under glassy, more so because of the integration that they did that Dennis was talking about with the sound and lighting. That's pretty phenomenal. And then what did you think about the layout? Did you like that Keith Owen layout? Does it feel like a Keith Owen?
    24:46
    Yeah, yeah, I did like it. And I'd say, yes, it does. Again, it feels different, but it's got some of those Keith-isms in it. Yeah. So in that regard, yeah, he's still, and he's done enough games now, I feel like I maybe shouldn't give credit here anymore, but it just still feels different. Like he does, he looks at it in a way different than how Stern, what we associate with a traditional Stern. But I thought it shot really well. Sure. And so in terms of, now I didn't have the upper play field, But in terms of the ramp shots and stuff, one of my favorite things, though, was, because you know he likes, he always does more than two flippers. But that flip lock, the little flip lock. Yeah. That trademarked Stern flip lock. They did trademark that, yeah. Yeah, they did, yes. So, anyway, that was fun.
    25:33
    I like that. I think it's clever, too. Yes. Especially you press the, I'm not good at that, but you press the, in multiball, you press the action button. and it can physically hold it instead of having to, like, stage the thing. I had one of our stronger tournament players was there, and he kind of walked me through all the rules as they stood at the time and explained that aspect of it. I was like, I didn't do it right. But I also like, this is a, you know, maybe some smart missile vibes or if you want to go way back in the 90s, some multi-ball vibes. But trying to snipe that moving fin flipper, that's hard. Yeah. I did get it. But it's cool, though, because that left end lane is so fast. When you come through that, almost the left side of the game is like a left alley, and it travels all along that wood rail and then goes to the end lane with really no stopping point. And then, yeah, if that thing's up, then you've got to hit it. Or if it stages it with a post and it's like, get it, get it, now. Now, mine, I heard reports of people airballing off that. Mine did not. Yeah, so I've had some airballs on my game. That was one of the downsides for me thus far. I'm going to have to make some adjustments. But also, like, the chum line acrylic inset, where there's that gap for the stand-up. Oh, okay. So it's not actually the fin target that's airballing. Correct. No. When the fin is down, I guess that, to me, it looks like the acrylic, let's call it a kidney bean, The front part of the crescent moon there, almost as if the acrylic is going down just ever so slightly, and then it hits the lip of the other side of the lip there, and it goes air. But that's what I'm seeing. But I'm going to start adjusting mine. I've read on Pinside you can adjust it with the four or five screws holding that inset, you know, kind of AC, DC kind of thing, window. or lowering the flipper because, jeez, the flippers on these new sterns now are crazy. Like on the recent Stranger Things, a lot of people have to turn down the coil power on the flippers because, wow. Yeah, I turned down Godzilla's flipper power. You put an eye out. So I'm going to try to do that as well because I've been getting some air balls, and there's nothing more frustrating than that. But the chum line is very cool. I love that target that does come up. It's not a drop target. It's almost like a motorized. It's coil-driven, but then it's motorized left to right. I do like that. And so layout-wise, you've pretty much got all the shots, though, as the premium LA because that left wave ramp, it's like a big 180 that would go to the upper play field. You still get the, I think, the difficulty of that shot with the pro. It just doesn't go to an upper play field. It goes to the wire form. Yes, that's true. People were complaining about that I have absolute zero complaints About that I like that you've got to hit it Like the left Orbit ramp on Godzilla If you don't hit it enough It's not going to go up there I tend to like that I don't need a freaking give me Ramp I don't have to have that No gimme ramps required Don't need that And you were talking about the albinisms and just it feeling different. And I completely agree. And I think that's, again, why people tend to buy Keith Ellin games more so than any other designer in the entire industry. Yeah, I mean, I would say because Foo Fighters is pretty different. People might be looking slash hoping that we continue to see that out of Jack Danger. Yes. But again, both are newer designers to the field, so it kind of makes sense. Yeah, and we'll talk about a newly released game later on where that was kind of the downside was that we getting accustomed like Keith out in different fields of things and that what Keith does best I do really like that I love that right orbit It like an orbit ramp that goes through Quint shack there It just feels really, really good. The shots on this, I can't downplay them. The shots are fucking great. I love shooting this game.
    29:58
    I could do without captive ball stuff. I know Keith loves those, but we've got the chum bucket and the boat. Okay Give or take I'm fine with it I don't need so many captive ball things Alright What about the video clips? I love that it has All these freaking assets I love it Yes, and here's the thing Where, you know, bubbly bobos aside One of the things that I always thought That worked for me Fine with, like The Guardians and such is taking clips and having these really short segments and just sort of tossing them in at proper opportune times and then tying it into the integration. That's something I think I'm going to explore a little bit later when we get to some other discussion about the use of it because I like there being a lot of variety, but I also like the implementation of them to be limited every time it's used. Does that make sense? Yeah, yeah. So, yeah, it worked for me with JAWS, but I felt like Stern's been doing pretty well with that In a lot of games, but of course it comes down to whether or not they've got the movie clips, because a lot of times they don't, and then we don't have that. But I thought it worked really well here, and again, as was sort of noted by people once we were getting information on the game, even though we don't see Roy all over the play field, you do have plenty of clips that employ him and his voice. Oh, he's very much in there with call-outs and video assets and everything. Even Dreyfus, everybody's kind of poo-pooing his custom speech and stuff. I catch none of that being negative in the game itself. He seems amped up, and it sounds cool to me. Yeah, I didn't notice an issue with it. But, you know, we've seen a lot of instances where people have, especially when they're not playing it. I still remember, like, the pushback on Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle, and Alice Cooper is not excited enough. And it's like, well, you're in his house, and he's just kind of like, why are you in here? That was the plan of it. What are you doing? And when I played it, I didn't notice it as being annoying or anything. Yeah. I think it's going to be another smash hit. It's got the theme. It's got Keith Allen. It's got everything. The one thing that I'm still wondering about are the rules.
    32:16
    Number one, I don't have enough time. And this is not, and I could be wrong. Help me out, Ray Day. Or y'all geeski. It's not It feels again like It feels Jurassic Parky Where it's not like Here's eight modes Hit enough white shots in Iron Maiden And you start one of these modes Do well enough on a mode and you get a shard It doesn't feel like that It feels like you gotta set traps in the paddock And then you gotta capture the dinosaur And then you gotta It's all these like set Set this, then do that, then get the hook And then pull the barrel in So I'm going to admit I'm still confused I don't know what I'm doing At all I think you hit the bucket enough And you start a mode And you hit the shark enough and start a multiball I think, I don't Again, not a ton of time on it yet But damn, am I confused By rules nowadays I'm getting old, Dennis I don't know what I'm doing I'm still trying to figure out the rules. Once they click, hell, I'm still a little foggy on Jurassic Park rules at times. What the hell is going on here? What am I doing? I do like the airport modes. That's much appreciated. You can start the different, the bounties. You're going for a minnow and it says, here's the Iron Maiden. How many spinners you need? How many ramps you need? How many? I love that. I really love that. But I'm going to have to water down the rules in my own mind and stay away from stuff that I just don't care about, if that makes sense.
    33:55
    Yeah, well, there is a lot to do on it. There's a lot. But I'd say, to me, it felt like a mix, a mix of Jurassic Park and a little bit of the sort of more Godzilla vibe, where there are a few things that are pretty close to the start button that aren't as deep, that don't require three phases. Again, maybe comparing it to Godzilla is a good example where, all right, things like tank multiball and bridge multiball, those are all pretty straightforward. You have to do a certain number of things, one thing a certain number of times, I should say. Whereas then you had other things where you have like three stages to Monster Zero or whatever. And it obviously got a lot more complicated, though. They tended to do an okay job explaining it on the display. But some of the stuff here in terms of the setup and things, plus there's probably some balancing as well. I want to think when I was getting the rules explained, I did not get to this part, but it sounded like I think doing rescues was very disproportionate in terms of point value. Not that you would care about that, but it sounded like that was a good way to exploit the game, is really trying to focus in on that. If you could make the shots and do the rescues and there are just certain, you know, there's often those Keith incentives where, you know, if you do this and then you can lock in your score and then your jackpots or whatever you've earned in the mode and things like that. So there's a lot of opportunity for exploitation of scoring. Yeah, and that's what takes time to balance all of that because there are so many options. Like there's a thing with beach goers and get beach goers and get enough of them and then you've got to close the beach down. That's the kind of stuff I don't understand quite yet. And then even like the gear stuff, like the incentives for the gear stuff are things for me that I'm like, I don't give a shit. I still can't ever remember what the three things like the food and medicine and walking dead does. Exactly. They each give you something, and I never could keep it straight in my head like what medicine gives you versus what weapons give you. All I know is like blood path is over there, so go after it. Because it's like, well, if you get the hook, you get two times bonus multiplier. I'm like, I'm never going to remember it. Yeah, I'm never going to remember it. Or like Elizabeth Gieske was kind enough to go on the flipping out pinball stream with Joel. Thank you again, Elizabeth, for that. That was phenomenal, and the numbers were huge on that. But she was explaining everything. It was like, okay, I'm going to start this mode, and then I'm going to start with multi-ball. I get that. But then she was like, no, Joel, before you do that, hit the chum a couple times or hit the shark a couple times. I forget what it was. And that's going to kind of boost your mode before you start it. I'm like, oh, God. And that's when it starts going.
    36:42
    And then I'm gone. So it's going to be another one I can dig in over time. And it stays in my collection forever, just like Keith's other game, Godzilla Jurassic Park. So I'm grateful for it. but the learning curve for me is going to take quite a bit more time than recent other games, like an Elton John or a Labyrinth or anything. Now, I did want to ask, this is an important aside, in my opinion. Was Elizabeth's Flippin' Out stream more popular than the game stream where I beat Joel?
    37:16
    It was. It was. I think that actually makes sense because I think people are tired of seeing me win. You did win yet again in that game. Poor John. I thought I would fare pretty well in that game. Listener, it was a game. Name that pinball tune, essentially, that Mike from Pinballers set up. And they played audio, and it was really fun. I enjoyed that quite a bit.
    37:43
    But, man, some of the ones that you guys missed, I'm, like, screaming at the top of my lungs. Don't scream. Be calm. It's Roadshow. Or, come on, it's Corvette. But the Corvette I knew would kind of. Well, those were all Sean's, and Joel, like, rigged it. So Sean was going to have the worst sound package. No, to be fair, though, Sean really biffed Demolition Man, though. I'm like, come on. I actually would have messed that one up, too. Really? Yeah, I just couldn't tell. I just couldn't. That was a fun game. But, yeah, you won yet again. Joel gets so competitive in those situations. He wants to beat you in something so bad, but he fails so miserably all the time.
    38:22
    I lost the game once, though. Did you? Well, to Mike, not to Joel. Not to Joel. I think Mike won that time. Yeah. I mean, Joel might have been ahead of me, too. I don't remember. Yeah, he's so close. I purged the ones I don't win from a river. It didn't seem like there was much effort on this part to win, so nicely done. I'm trying to think if there's anything else about the game. Oh, Sharkton Eat Ball. That's a down. No one cares. I do. No, you do. I do. Are you a child? Do you really have to care about that? This is a toy. And I want to see the shark eat the fucking ball. Okay. On my own, I even put the ball in the shark's mouth. I did. Because I'm thinking to myself, what if you time it just right and you dislodge that ball? Sure, it's going to mess up the system and stuff, but that's a moment for me. It's a one-time kind of thing. Where you knock the token ball that they gave with a little jokey instruction so you can have your own sharky ball. I want to hit the ball through the windmill and I'm putt-putting. I want to hit it in the clown's mouth. Okay That's me Shark doesn't eat ball That's kind of a downside It's whatever you Whatever people want to care about Is fine The other thing for me That was kind of downside I'm not going to lie Like there was this mode Called night swim I'm looking for like In this It's .85 So there's more to come But I'm looking for more flair Some more coding effects Lighting Choreography You don't want them to turn off the GI Do you? Yes Like whenever No Players hate that I know Players hate that When Night Swim starts, they give you that. Where there's like, it all goes down. You have to set the mood. Yes. That's on the on. Keep it that way. No. People who play with the lights off are going to be all like, no. I didn't see the ball. I think it was last week. They're out. I was streaming it, and she was in chat. And she said, yeah, as a factoid, Night Swim originally was coded in such a way, but she indicated that it was too dark when playing. And I thought, you know what, Elizabeth and team, Zach here, how many modes do you have in this game? One, two, three. You've got a lot of modes, right? Okay, so the player can't see for one mode for the sake of the fucking pinball moment?
    40:35
    Elizabeth, come on. Give the people what they want. Give them one mode that they can't see. You are the only one who wants this. No. It's like when Dwight Sullivan is blinding you. Get over it, people. It's not an F and Mo. It's a moment. They are here to play pinball and take names, not lose because of gimmicks. No. Stern teeth. This is an operator error. Your operator error is over. Home players don't want to be cheated. They're behind the eight ball a bit because of the lack of RGB lighting. No, if there was an eight ball, they wouldn't even let it eat the ball. They're not behind anything. So when you're behind the eight ball on the RGB lighting, that's how you kind of tell a story choreography-wise with your lights, right? So if you don't have as much of that, lean into things that you can do, like Night Swim. It's right there for you. It's screaming night. Put the lights out or dim them. I think they even dimmed them. They even dimmed them. It's fine.
    41:31
    Missed opportunity. No, I think it was. They clearly evaluated this opportunity, and they chose the right path here. We'll talk about a game later on that did this very well, where modes are almost to the point of being gimmicky. But I need a little more of that. That's all. Just a little more of that.
    41:50
    And then one of the things I do love, you said you haven't seen the LE yet, but frickin' LE is a looker, like especially that mirrored backlash. Now, you did see the Translight on the Pro. Does that not work perfectly?
    42:05
    Yes. That's why the Premium is my least favorite, even though it was probably the most effort by the artist who went into it, Simply because it's so different from, I mean, they have such an iconic poster. Oh, so much so. It's really unusual to run into that instance. It'd be like Rocky Horror Picture Show. You could get away with just the lips and the teeth sort of thing. Most things you can't, and it makes sense to have the artist really try and do something. And they were very creative on the premium, but the bottom line is I just prefer the poster. Well, and I see them selling a lot of pro-translates because of it. I really do. But the LE is a looker, especially with that mirrored back glass. The white armor works. Maybe I wish it had some metallic in it, but whatever. White armor works. The expression speaker lighting was really cool because, like, on the Chum line, when it's just red in a portion, that's what it relays on the circle speaker light. Like a quarter of it's red. So it's almost informational, too. Foil cabinet decals, it's damn nice. How many do you own? I've got it sitting next to a fathom because it's kind of like, you know, the mermaids. And it's the, you know, 20,000 weeks on this day. It's the water. It's, you know, water-based. And they're beautiful. And sitting beside each other, I'm like, this is Pendle. But we'll get to Haggis later on. They might add some metallic flakes when they come out with the Blood Red Bite Edition. The what? Blood Red Bite Edition. I don't get it.
    43:34
    Blood Red Kiss Edition. Oh, the Blood Red. Jesus. Sorry. God, you are old. I'd say I'm getting old. Okay. Blood Red Bite Edition. Don't worry, it's a premium, so it's okay.
    43:51
    We're only making $500, but we don't have a placard, so we're all right. So funny. I like it. Okay, Shark Doesn't Eat Ball. What else have we got?
    44:03
    Yeah, so it's a winner of a game. It's selling crazy. It's another terrific Stern game. Do you think that Stern, do you think they planned for their follow-up Cornerstone games to Keith Elwin based on the popularity that they do have with Keith Elwin? And then another question as a follow-up, Dennis, more broad. Do you think that they changed the order of releases based on the popularity, positive or negative, of the previous released product?
    44:41
    Yes, I do. All right. Well, I'm not entirely sure what you meant by the first question involving Keith specifically. Do they throw in a game that they think may be less popular following a Keith Elwin game because of the balance that it could bring? You don't want it to overshadow. So you've got a keep game that's going to keep selling the entire year. It's going to be the hot and heaviest at the beginning of its release cycle. But as it comes down, that wave comes down, it slowly gets smaller. So you want to hit them maybe the next with a less popular game. I lean towards no. Okay. Unless, like, they're struggling with the line to keep up with it, in which case maybe that is like, okay, hypothetically, We're building Jaws where, gosh, the line's going full bore. We've obviously got all these other games that we need to start getting out there because we have licensing agreements. Let's go ahead and move up a less popular one because we're struggling. Like, we're at 80% capacity still on Jaws. So let's do something that way. Maybe then. So you're thinking capacity of production would do it. Yes. I don't think it has. A more functional explanation. Because I think they're probably more pressured by the release. Obviously, we know multiple times they've noted in interviews that they've moved games around. I think it tends to have to do more with what's going on with their license arrangements, because they don't get to hold these in perpetuity. The games do have to come out. I agree. And so I think that's usually the main driving factor. Because until a game comes out, they probably get a vague sense based off of theme. Probably that's the best sense that they get. A secondary sense, at least in some instances, based off designer, namely Keith. But other than that, do you really know? I don't think they went in doing Venom thinking that Venom wasn't going to sell great. I think they were just like, well, it's a Marvel character, and it's well-known, and we hope it does gangbusters like some of our other Marvel stuff has.
    46:46
    And then when it doesn't, maybe they change the schedule around because of that. I think it actually happens more on the back end. If a game doesn't do well, do they just move up what they were planning, or do they try and factor in, okay, what three games do we have ready? What's the most attractive theme? Yeah, that's true. And they do seem to keep a cycle with designers pretty consistently. Yeah, so that's why I don't think that's really a main. I don't really think it comes up. I just always wonder. Maybe. I just don't. I struggle to imagine it's a primary factor. Who would be due up next if we were going in and saying, would it be Borg?
    47:24
    What was his last game? All right. So we had Eddie did Venom, and then obviously Ellen has done Jaws, and then before that was Jack with Foo. It would be. Yeah, it would be Borg. So it would be Borg, yeah. And then that would be like Jack in the summer, and then Eddie in the winter.
    47:44
    Hmm. We'll see. We shall see. Did you see the shark eating bowl aftermarket mod that this guy's doing? Yeah, I watched part of his install video. So that's been like a discussion point over the last couple weeks since we recorded last. There's a guy that is selling a mod now that enables the shark on the pro. As of right now, he's making one for the premium LE. I don't know how that's going to work. But for the pro, he replaces that boat, that captive ball boat, with an actual shark head that you hit it into the shark's mouth. The shark then kind of goes left to right. and then it's a quick buck system that kicks the ball up to the right habit trail to come back to the right flipper mixed reviews we've seen some people herald this thing as thank God it was like worth 500 bucks thank God there's an option for this now so much better and then some people are like it's a fucking joke what is this crap no this is bad I think that you guys talked about it a little bit on the flipping out stream, Joel did not seem like a fan. No, he wasn't. Well, we have to hedge a little bit, because when you say you guys spoke about it on the flipping out stream, I didn't say a single thing, because I think Joel spoke for about 15 minutes, and I was just like, I'm just going to sit here.
    49:14
    I'm just a guest. I'm just going to sit here. I don't know if he was like, he was mixed on it, but he just... I think it's necessary. And I hate, well, I agree it's completely unnecessary.
    49:27
    And if people want to do, and he was, you know, he agreed with what I would say, which is, you know, it's your game. If you want to modify your game, you can modify your game. I think for Joel, his big issue, and I hate putting words in people's mouth, but this is my takeaway after listening to 15 minutes of it, was that I think he finds the notion somewhat insulting to Elwynn. That's perfectly correct. Particularly for people that are insisting on this without having played the game yet. That they go in and they say, this has to happen. And it's like you're talking about the greatest pinball designer who ever lived. And you're kind of crapping all over his work. I think that's kind of the vibe he feels when he sees people ordering this before they've even played Jaws.
    50:12
    Whereas my take would be, mechanically, incredibly clever. And there was a lot of praise. And Mike from the Pinballers gave a lot of praise for the design aspect in particular. Very clever. This guy's Canadian, though, right? Right, right. Well, sure, sure. But from a problem-solving engineering standpoint, I think it was really interesting and quite a clever solution. I would never embrace this mod because it dramatically changes gameplay.
    50:41
    That's true. And this modder has done other mods, like he had a Rick and Morty mod that dramatically changed gameplay. I didn't do that one. And I'm not comfortable with mods that do that. I liked how difficult that shot was from Scott. And that's my concern with his solution. Well, as elegant as it is, because honestly, it's very well, like he chose the ideal spot, I think, to do this in a way that feels substantive. I agree. But you've taken a captive ball chaotic shot and turned it into a feed the right flipper shot. And for that reason alone, in the words of, pun intended, Shark Tank, I'm out.
    51:18
    I can do the best in the business for a reason. I can't say much more to that except for my conclusion would be somewhat different. I agree with the whole gel stance. It is a bit insulting. It's a bit.
    51:36
    But then again, my argument would be, you know, even Keith Elwin, the wonderful genius that he is, I would argue that there's a good chance that he's not given a full endless bill of material.
    51:51
    He would probably, if given double the time and double, triple the budget, maybe would have different things in there. So I think it's not much of an insult because he's doing his job and he has limits to what he can do. And if somebody else wants to expand upon that, it's not insulting because it's not like he's saying, this is the best that I've got, this is all I can do. He's saying, I've got a job, I have to complete these tasks in a budget and in a timeline, and this is what you get. And what that gives us generally are the greatest games that are sold en masse in the entire world, in the existence of pinball. So he gives us the greatest. So I don't think it's a slap in the face because people are just expanding because they have time and effort and stuff, too. It does drastically change the game, yes. And it is kind of a repeatable kind of shot, yes. Having said that, if I had to pro, eh, I kind of like it. So this is interesting to me. I mean, I can see why you would like it. I can see why you like the mod. But, you know, one of the things that came up in the chat on the Flippin' Out stream that I was sort of monitoring while we were having the discussion, and again, well, no, while I was staying there keeping my mouth shut and Joel was having the discussion, there were a lot of people that, like, their concerns weren't even, like, the choice of if you put it in or if you don't. They were just really perturbed that you could put it in and then still get insider-connected achievements.
    53:24
    And so, but this reminds me of Zach. That's a good point. I'm going to push because I keep track of these things. I look for hypocrisy in people's statements. And I find it interesting that you are uncomfortable with the idea of activating a mini wizard mode that you didn't earn in the game. But you are willing to consider a mod that will allow you to get further in the game than your skill allows you to normally.
    53:52
    I see the hypocrisy. Of course. Because it's present. I acknowledge it. I smell the aroma of hypocrisy. Now, it's a stretch, though, to start the game off in a wizard mode versus having... No, it's very different, absolutely. But nonetheless, we're talking about the captive ball, because the captive ball is very important once you've chum-bucketed up and all that to get stuff done in the game. And now you're getting free flipper feeds every time you do it. That is a huge... That's Baby's first flipper.
    54:24
    Baby's first right ramp shot. If there was a clear-cut way to balance that out in settings, if you install that, then I'd be good with that. If you could balance that out. Yeah, Stern, can you just go in and modify your settings? I'm talking about, like, the hobbyist community. You know, if you're going to throw that in, you son of a bitch, at least do this in the setting. But I get it. No argument. It can't be balanced. I do like, if that shark didn't wave back and forth kind of after you hit it, I don't know if I, I just think it's clever. It looks good. It is clever. This is in no way a criticism of the mod itself. This is the question of a mod that actually modifies gameplay. We're not just putting in a new pretty noodle sign. I will say that we have, we spoke a bit to this creator. The creator reached out to us a little bit, and then I reached out to the creator a bit, You know, we discussed this mod. Because one of the complaints to Dennis was, there's no jaw. This is a jaw. That was your complaint. No one else cares about that. I've read that a lot of people say that, well, it looks like the shark doesn't have a bottom bite. Because he doesn't. It's like, oh, hello. It's just that that's my audio representation of just teeth on the front. And the modder informed you why that would have been a bad decision. Because I told the modder, didn't I? I said, look. You did. You were half drunk.
    55:53
    I mean, that was some shots in. People who weren't Nordman level didn't get to go in and listen. This was part of our happy hour. Where Zach gave criticism to the mod. Yeah, so someone who was one of our supporters of Patreon was like, Hey, I know this guy. I could see if you're willing to let him come in. Get him on. Sure, let him in. And so we bring him in. And then Zach's like, hey, listen here, buddy. I'm doing my Zach impression. Hi, your mod is pretty fucking cool. But where's the lower jaw? It looks real weird. What's wrong with you? Are you Canadian or what? Yeah. And the guy is like, because the head shakes, the mod shakes, it's going to look like his jaw is dislocated. And every time it goes rattle, rattle. and it's not going to just reset dead center, so it was going to look stupid. Well, it still looks better, Dan. I disagree. Exactly. And then Zach was, you know, five scotches in.
    56:56
    You're wrong. That's right. My way is always the best way. Now buy my ten competitive numbered games. It just, there's a right answer and a wrong answer. For that one, he chose the wrong answer. It's just, people do that. I get it. And if he's going to worry about doing that, or just draw the bottom jaw on the artwork. No. No, it wasn't going to line up with the bottom artwork. That was the problem. But it still would look better. It still would look better than no jaw at all. No, it would all look like some weirdo. Am I saying that the now jar? Everybody keeps it online. He's saying it with an L, jaw. Like, does that not know how to say it? Am I saying it wrong? Jaw? How do you say jaws? I don't know how to say it. Yeah, just jaws. It hasn't sounded weird to me. Okay. Now, your decision to want him to have jowls does. You gotta have Jaws Maybe I do say it with snow Well it's a Midwestern They're very judgmental Of pronunciation I get a lot of those messages That's enough Stern and Jaws talk I did say it with snow Let's go with Haggis Pimple Shit Shark doesn't eat ball At least there's a shark to eat the ball Okay What a story here that is brewing in Australia. Haggis Pinball. We've been wondering if they finished Fathoms. Apparently, they haven't. They thought they were going to at the end of the year. I thought they basically promised they were going to. Yeah. Anytime you put a timeline on something, you're setting yourself up.
    58:36
    And they're close. I mean, they're close. But nonetheless, they're still early achievers. waiting for their big Lebowski's and we bitch about it. So it is what it is.
    58:49
    Objectively, either you have or you haven't, and they haven't. Centaurs, to my knowledge, aren't on the production line, and they were supposed to be in January. Here it is February, almost March. I own a company flipping out pinball, and we're the exclusive U.S. dealer for Haggis Pinball products, and we've had a couple of people reaching out, wondering what the hell's going on. If they can have their non-refundable deposits back. It a whole other story on how non deposits work but I digress And then all of a sudden we hear from Australia in the form of an email to many of those who have, I guess, with Fathom, who have pre-ordered Centaur. I don't know exactly who this went out to, but there was an email from Damien giving an update. and the update didn't instill a lot of hope, a lot of warm and fuzzies with those reading it. Is that fair to say? I mean, it didn't sound good. Well, what I respect about it is it was extremely open with what issues were going on. I felt kind of like the old days of Haggis where they were known for their transparency. A couple of T-words in there have worried people. One in particular. One very much in particular. What would that keyword be? Well, I thought it's only fair to discuss this and especially how you and I as hobbyists feel about it, how myself as a distribution partner with my company, with Haggis Pinball, it's only fair to at least talk about it. It's not like it's news or we need to talk about it. I thought, what better place than in our Pinball Show Club? Yes. That's the best place.
    60:45
    We've got to discuss it there. For those supporters that we have at the Pinball Show Club, you can go become a part of that club. Become a member today to help support the Pinball Show by going to patreon.com slash thepinballshow. At as little as $10 a month, we weave you gold. We give you exclusive content. You get to join our Discord, private Discord, where we're all chatting back and forth about the hottest topics and the weirdest stuff as well.
    61:15
    Or the Nordman Club level at $25 a month. You get those half-drunken happy hour hangouts that are live once a month with Dennis and I and a gaggle full of guys. We don't have any girls yet, I don't think, in there. What the hell? Now, reach out to us, thepinballshowatgmail.com. I don't know if we have any Nordman-level female members. And then that's the $25. You get an official membership decal. You get to pick a topic. The $100 a month Screaming Goat Club members, they get their own nickname. They get to come on the show here in the future. They get one-on-one correspondence with Dennis and I.
    61:56
    That's just, that's all behind the scenes, babe. They get everything there. They get to pay for a polo, all kinds of cool stuff. So $10 a month, $25, $100, whatever you want to pick, you get that exclusive content where Dennis and I dive deep into this email that people received about Haggis Pinball, what we think that means, and maybe what's to come in the future. Patreon.com slash The Pinball Show.
    62:23
    That's going to be some juicy stuff there. Yep. Am I worried, Dennis? You have to tune in and find out. All right, Spooky Pinball Dennis, we've got the Texas Chainsaw Massacre and Looney Tunes actually being shipped. Yes. People have been awaiting us. Very excited. They've done a good job marketing lately on games production, and it's at the location in Madison and all this stuff.
    62:50
    I will, everybody, not much. They have not shipped many because I know that I'm at like, I think I've got number eight coming of Texas Chainsaw Massacre. And I haven't received yet. So, I mean, we're just a couple have gone out. I think Wes over in Alabama, our buddy Wes Bentley, I think he's got both of his. He's been a very early adopter of spooky stuff. So he gets one of the first that come offline. So we're getting closer, but I don't believe 20 have shipped yet. I don't believe maybe 10, like in total, between Looney Tunes and text chains all have shipped. But they're going to start boosting that up. I talked to Spooky Luke this last week, and he said they aim. I don't think that's an off-the-record thing, so let me pull up my, let's see what he said here.
    63:44
    They did do a stream of, while I'm looking this up, they did a stream of Looney Tunes. Bug did this last week, so go check that out. Production going very well.
    63:56
    Starting to settle into a daily schedule. So far, solid builds and ramping up every week. Okay. So that's the information there. I think that once they start hitting dealerships, different locations, we'll get a lot more feedback on the game. But the games thus far, I don't want to call it a game, but the gains thus far overwhelmingly positive. So we will see as they continue to come out. I'm looking forward to getting some time, especially since the codes are different between the two. I think people on the forums, Dennis, have still been saying that Texas Chainsaw Massacre rules seem way more developed at this point than Looney Tunes. But Looney Tunes is still a great pedigree when it comes to the rules and coding, So I'm not worried about that either. But people are loving both games, which is great to hear. Same with Chicago Gaming Company. Pulp. Holy shit. Pulp Fiction's didn't sit down. What? The SEDs are actually shipping. No way. I swear to you. We had a handful ship out. Swear to me. So they shipped out, my friend. They shipped out last week, a handful of them. I think we get a couple this week with the silver coin doors. But boy, they're still slow Don't get your hopes up, people Man, as soon as they said Pulp Fiction Essays are shipping My email box lit up Hey, do you have any updates? The problem is, they don't really update Here is my update as a distributor Hey, Zach, I know that you and other distributors have asked And we finally have an update You're getting X amount They should be going out in the next week Okay, great, next week comes They're delayed another week, and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm so surprised. So they finally get them out, and then I'm not going to hear anything. It's not like they're like, and now, as a follow-up, you're now going to be receiving your next X in four weeks, six weeks. No, I'll hear nothing until I don't know when. No clue. Then they'll say, you have more of your SE order available. They're ready to ship. That's kind of how it works. It's hard to give updates I have no clue So it's not me being incompetent I don't know No clue Now what we try to do Some helpful distributor you are We try to build Some data points so that we can get a cadence That's what I do Yeah you should have to cadence these things That's what I do But Cern Pinball is the one manufacturer That they'll be like In this month you're getting this and the next run you're getting this. Like, that helps. Because then I know, you know, if you order now, you're going to get one then. But now I have no clue. Somebody says, if I were to order Pulp Fiction, because I guess this is probably the most popular question asked the last couple weeks, if I ordered a Pulp Fiction essay today, when would I get it?
    67:00
    And my response... Yeah, when would I get it? Yeah, my response to people is, if anyone tells you they know when, they are fucking lying to you. No clue. I think they would be honest with me and tell me when I'd get it. Gun to my head. Ah, fall? Winter? I don't wait that long. I have no clue. I'm not buying this game. A lot of people don't. And I'd say, you know, I'd rather lose a sale being honest than gain one being dishonest. Aw. Yeah, well. That's like one of those little cross-stitched things you can hang on your wall. What's the creepy-ass one that Nicole's got in one of the bathrooms? It has like something with Jesus in it. It's like just like. Just take my tiny hand. Oh, it's bad. Every time I'm taking a piss in that guest bathroom, it's like something about like Jesus and germs are everywhere. Or I'm like, what? Why are we associating germs with Jesus? I saw just a day or two ago, which said this is not a crack house. This is a crack home. I like that Yeah, it was good I think it's Wash your hands, say your prayers Because Jesus and germs are everywhere Wow I tease her all the time I'm like, that's the creepiest, weirdest ass Little thing to put in the bathroom Please keep it up Alright, Jersey Jack Pinball Speaking of Jesus and germs Where is that Elton John?
    68:33
    Oh, actually they're transitioning into Elton John's CE production. Yeah, so we've seen them on the line. So no more platinum editions available until late spring.
    68:47
    But if I really wanted a platinum. See, there you go. Jersey Jack indicates to us. Now, maybe in my opinion, they might have abruptly switched the line there with a heads up. But, you know, it was a training up. I'd like to have a little bit more notice. But at least they told us, end of spring, if you order now, end of spring is when they're going to be fulfilled. So that's good. And there's still some Elton John CE spots, too, so we're selling those if anybody's interested. What? They haven't sold out? Nope. Nope, they have not sold out. Did you tell them about the tiny dancer on it? Hold me closer.
    69:25
    I played that game. That's a good game. Damn, it's a good game. I wish one of your locations would get one of those. That's a good one. We might end up with an Elton. Yeah, that's good. Okay. When does Georgia Jack have their next game? I think we discussed that. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know either. I haven't heard any reports like they're going to have something at TPF, but I do think it'll be the first half of this year. You think so? I do. Isn't it time to have Sidon's game come out finally? I would think so.
    69:55
    Unless they throw something else in there. Like the Hogwarts Legacy pin. No, I'm not talking about a new game. I'm talking about something old.
    70:06
    Pirates. I don't think so. Oh, speaking about running something in the summer, Multimorphic announces a new game. Yes. They also announced a new team member, a programmer, a familiar one that we know from American Pinball. His name is Josh Coogler. Yep. He joined the P3 team as a programmer on this upcoming title. They just released, like a week ago or so, The Princess Bride. As you wish. Inconceivable. So you and I have discussed a little bit about the theme, The Princess Bride. We both think it's a very good theme for pinball, right? Yeah. I was thinking this morning, like, do I think Princess Bride would do better or worse than Weird Al, which is also a very strong theme. A lot of people really like Weird Al. And I was, I've waffled so much, because to me the Princess Bride is a lot better theme. I think it's a stronger theme. I think there's more, because of the nostalgia. I don't, Weird Al, because he's still active, I don't think he resonates nostalgia in the same way that Princess Bride does. But I think Princess Bride is more nostalgic than Labyrinth. But I know you disagree with that. No, I could see that argument. I really could. Yeah. I don't think it's necessarily better for pinball than the labyrinth, but I can see how more people have a closer nostalgia or a stronger nostalgia to the Princess Bride.
    71:41
    It's got more of the rememberable call-outs and stuff like that. It's more of a comedy-based thing, so I get that. They announced the Princess Bride, and then they were taking order. The one thing, damn, why do these companies do this? They show you all the goods, and then they say, I know you're ready to spend money. I know you're amped, but why don't you sleep on it?
    72:03
    Like, that is fail, water, run. Oh, yeah, the order's open the next day. That was, I. Why did they do that? I'm not sure what the motivation was on it, but.
    72:14
    I'll never understand it. And, again, it's like that mod thing. Like, there are right decisions and there are wrong decisions. This in no way is an arguable, yeah, but that's just your opinion. No, no, it's just not. You show a product, that's the hype. If you want to make money. Their logic was, well, Stern will do their teaser trailer and sales aren't open when the teaser comes out. Because you never see the goods. You've got to see the goods. Once the goods are shown, Stern Pinball will take your money. They're smart.
    72:47
    All right, that's a whole other thing. So the next day they took sales. Then some people would be, oh, I haven't even seen the game play yet. Oh, whatever. So they said, fine, we've got Buffalo Pinball streaming it this Saturday. They streamed it a couple days ago. Did you get a chance to watch that? I watched some of it live, and I watched some more of the recorded footage this morning, and I think they got on the front page of Twitch because when I went in, there were 9,000 viewers. Yep, I think it hit over 11,000. So that was great exposure. Absolute fantastic exposure to it. But oddly enough, though, I did go to Pinside afterwards. Maybe not a big Pinside crowd thing because after the stream, what are we, not a full 24 hours after the stream? There's been two comments since the stream.
    73:32
    Yeah, I mean, when you're on the front page of Twitter, the nice thing is you get a lot of exposure. To new people, yeah. Yes, but a lot of people, I think, just use that as like, it's like a recommended thing where you just, it's like, hey, look, something I'm not, oh, pinball, that's still a thing. It's just sitting up there. Well, I mean, it's like when, what was it, one of the big pinball tournaments ended up on the front page of Twitch. It's not like all of a sudden we got 1,000 new tournament players. Absolutely.
    74:01
    But it draws people in, and it's great. Exposure is good. One can't argue that is huge. Princess Bride pinball exists that would not have otherwise ever known, most likely. So in that regard, that was nice. But I wouldn't read too much about how many new sales, actual sales, from the stream itself directly gets generated. I think once you see a price, then this isn't a multimorphic thing. It's just a pinball thing in general. You see a Stern Pro price, you ever go to the comment section of IGN or wherever they always have their articles written, and just read those comments. And it's a lot of, that price is absolutely ridiculous. Yeah, what am I buying, a car? Yeah, yeah, things like that. Yeah. It's tough because it's expensive. Pinball's expensive. Production starts in the summer of 2024.
    74:55
    So they are announcing a little bit earlier than their production, but a lot of companies do that. They did that with Final Resistance as well. Yeah. As long as they're taking money, they're fine. They're locking it in to get nonrefundable deposits.
    75:09
    They have three models. People don't know what that means, though, Zach. They don't. They truly do not.
    75:15
    There's three models of the Princess Bride. A standard model, a limited edition model limited to 750 units, and a collector's edition model limited to 500 units. So kind of a hybrid between different manufacturers and their different trim level packages. The standard model is $11,500 if you're buying a brand new P3, almost a console, but a platform with the game built into it, $11,500. The LE would be $12,750. So that's comparable to like a Stern LE price-wise and a Jersey Jack Platinum. And then the CE limited edition or the CE would be $13,750, which is more than most ever game on the market. Except for the CEs of JJP. So it is a hefty. Now, For those adopters of the P3 platform, they can buy just the kit. If they want just the game, that's the selling point that Multimorphic pushes. You can just throw the back third in. It's a brand-new game. Still kind of expensive. I mean, we're still a standard game kit is $3,750.
    76:28
    Much cheaper than any standalone pinball machine. It's cheaper even than the home editions, right, isn't it, from CERN? Yes, but you can argue it's a third of the game, too. There's a reason for it You can't have two P3 games in at the same time It's one platform So $37.50 or $5,000 for the LE game kit Again, those LE game kits are limited to 750 units Alright, so $5,000 So I think like $5,000 That's almost It's a hefty price All these games are hefty prices So I don't See there being an issue in the price Per se, now I think Before we even talk about the game The prices themselves I think even with a strong theme Like the Princess Bride I don't think you sell 1250, that's the limited Sense of the CE and the LE Added together I don't think you sell 1250 units Of this game With this platform Like, I don't see any way. I really don't. I could be wrong. No, I don't. And especially when I find out that the CE, the adopters that own a P3 system and have been supportive, they can't even buy the CE. Yes, they can. Well, they can buy another P3 machine if they want. Absolutely. They can't buy the game. This was inevitable. This was inevitable if the platform had lived as long as it has. Was it not? I mean, you can't make it backwards compatible forever unless you want to bottleneck. There are just features they chose to add that would not be possible. What are they going to do, give instructions for people on how to drill holes in the sides of their cabinet to install the sword hilts? I mean, we've got to go somewhere. Figure it out. No, just, hey, most people don't need the CE. It's fine. I don't like it. I don't care. I think once you build... They can get the LE if they already own the platform. Once you build an owner base that is large enough to do that kind of move, okay. They're just not there yet. How many people do you honestly think you own these things that even change, like, the magnet decals all the time when they put in a new module? I don't... It's just... I think the... It's... I don't know who wants it for the handles, anyway. Me. No. Like, if I'm the buyer of this game, I'm not. But if I were, I would be upset if I had a P3 because I'd want the swords. The swords were cool. You buy the platform and sell your old platform. What's the problem?
    79:12
    Try to sell that platform, and then you tell them, ask me what the problem is. Well, now that there's a Prince of Fry, maybe people will buy the old platform. They want to spend $37.50 for the standard kit.
    79:24
    I don't like that people have this game. You've got to be broader than you are. I just don't like it. I don't like it. Okay, you don't have to like it. I'm just telling you most people aren't going to care because most people are not in for the CE regardless. As we're discussing the features of these different models, not that I'm going to point out what the collector's edition buyers get that the other P3 owners do not get. Collector's edition digital translate, you don't get that. The other buyers are not going to get the bronze powder-coated leg and armor. That's pretty cool. Decorative cabinet-mounted swords, I do like those. Custom LCD framing back class, that's awesome. Custom launch button. Somebody mod that. Not a big deal. Numbered plaque. Certificate of authenticity. Printed LE Translight.
    80:08
    I don't get any of that. Collector's edition people do, though. So, eh. Mode and feature complete this game is. But the code's not complete complete.
    80:21
    But mode and feature is completed per Jerry, who's the owner of Multimorphic. He said that on the stream. What games even come out code complete at this point? Absolutely. I guess HomePen argues theirs do. To my knowledge, P3 has a better release of code closest to complete than most other manufacturers. So they already do a good job of that.
    80:45
    Okay. Let's get some of our impressions of this game, The Princess Bride, based on the promo, which is a nice promo. Picks and the stream.
    80:56
    What stuck out to you? What did you like or questions? Well, they have the footage and they have the call-outs. And Princess Bride, and probably the reason why I say Princess Bride to me is a stronger theme than Labyrinth, is it's a more quotable movie. 100%. And that was really emphasized at one point on the stream that I watched where they spoke about, They felt, and I do believe them on this, that they went through and they feel, well, they don't have the whole movie in there. Every major iconic scene and iconic line is integrated in some way into this game. Because there are a lot. You know, the whole, my name is Emilio Montoya. I know I butchered that. The whole, as you wish, true love, all of that. They got it all in there. So, theme integration, strong. that's my first take clip integration strong IP strong this is what you and I have said they're probably their best move in the company's history thus far I'm going to push back a little bit about the clip integration I think you're going to disagree with me I think it's too heavy handed oh come on that's what they're paying for I get it but you remember hey look Thinking back, Wayne's World style, when I brought the whole thing about Guardians of the Galaxy and stuff. When you go in, one of the modes that got started was the Poison Goblet mode with the inconceivable guy.
    82:30
    And while that mode is going, you are watching the entire scene with audio. And they loop it, yeah. Well, I didn't even get to the part where they loop. It's a long scene. And I'm sitting there, and it's not just on the back box. that video clip is taking up a significant portion of the playfield display. Sure. And to me, it felt too far on the side of I'm watching the movie. Oh, God. Why can we not just have him saying, why not just when you make a shot, you get something like. Like a clip. Yeah.
    83:08
    So for me, it was too heavy handed. because I've noticed almost all of their clip integrations were extremely long takes. So you like the way the Jaws, where it will come up, it will show you a clip every time you hit a correct thing, and then it goes back to the UI? Yes. Okay. Yes. Now, I don't know if that's because I've seen it that limited that I can't handle. Like, I've been ingrained to only get little bits, little tastes, that I'm not used to getting a full-course kneel with it. But it just, anyway, I just, I didn't, I love the audio and the audio integration. Oh, I guess it would be a second point. But the audio integration, like the sync up was really good with the call outs that I heard. So that was great. I just thought they're throwing an awful lot of the footage of the, it reminded me of HomePin and just the random clips of Spinal Tap playing, except these were integrated. But it was just long stretches of clips.
    84:05
    And I'm fine with it. I don't know. I could tell you would be. I just, I don't know. It just, it seemed a bit, maybe if it was only on the back box and not on the play field, I'd have felt a little different. That's a decent argument. Like, put them in one or the other. Actually, I think I would have because I wouldn't see it, and it takes up so much space on the play field. And it's a 9-16 ratio, so you've got it in the correct ratio. That's the one thing that threw me.
    84:28
    I'm going to actually go opposite of you. Like, I love the assets. If I love Princess Bride, that's exactly what I want to see. I want to see it. I want to hear it all the time because I know that that's what you're paying for. I'd almost like when it comes 916 on the main play field LCD, I feel like that's like hampered. Get rid of that. I want you to do like a cut sequence where it fills up the entirety of that LCD screen. If it's the inconceivable whole dialogue, cut to just the framing of him and then cut to just the framing of the other guy. Like you don't need the 916. Fill up that whole damn screen, kind of like you see reels in short form media at this point. Because anytime you're displaying a vertical of a film or something like that, I hate butchering it. But you've got to fill the screen regardless. So, yeah, I'm good with it. Audio, I didn't catch, like, the only thing I caught was that one spinner was really loud. It was cool sound, but that's the only audio sound effect that really stood out to me. I heard the ching, ching, ching, that kind of stuff. I love, so I like the clips. I also like the magnet use. So on that cliff. Oh, for the cliff of insanity? Yes. Yeah, that's cool. I'm a sucker for a magnet. So if you're going to mist multi-ball that bitch vertically up a cliff, up a mountain, yep, I'm going to be a sucker for that. It's going to be cool every single time. I like that. I like how it holds it at the top until you start something else, and then it pulls it down the wire form. That is fantastic. Now, the downside to me of some of these, what Multimorphic or P3 has been good at is like toys, like the heist crane, multifunctional toys, the upper play field and the different mechanisms and hamster wheel and the ramps and stuff on Weird Al. This didn't feel to me like it's got a whole lot of that.
    86:27
    It's got that magnet. maybe I'm just becoming too accustomed to really loaded games because for me this felt flat like flat plastic world under glass I don't know why but well that's sort of fair I mean when you think about it and look at the back of it I mean up past the cliffs of insanity basically they do have a flat plastic kind of serving as a matte painting that takes up probably that whole half, the right half. And then the left half is a, okay, they basically took, yeah, two with a one-piece vertical, one-piece horizontal. So you're not incorrect compared to, like you're going to compare it to Labyrinth, which is a 3D sculpt. That's what I think of, yeah. It feels like, this feels like a 2D world under glass where the Labyrinth, that's a 3D, because they're very similar in nostalgic fantasy-based adventure kind of IP. In that respect, I think it's hard to argue. They're very similar in that. even almost the era in which they were produced. But in the labyrinth, they're a 3D world. You have molds. Not only do you have molds of things, you have interactive toys that push up the molds of a ceiling. You've got creatures. You've got mechanisms. The back panel LCD, in my opinion, works better than the entirety of an LCD play field that hinders all of your design. You've got a topper. Just an example right there, listener. Take the Princess Bride topper in the L.A. in the collector's edition, flat plastic world, and even Weird Al, accordion, flat plastic world, and compare it to three molded heads of goblins that talk to you and turn and interact. Like, that is the epitome of the comparison, in my opinion, between these two. The big difference between these two though games One of them the top level Is 13,750 where the other one Is more than 2,000 less than It just Feels like you get so much more In a different game that now Kind of and we talked about it when it came out Labyrinth selling so well because it's kind of Another little standard setting In this industry And it's hard for me not to just Naturally compare it Subconsciously to that So that's what it's funny you said that because I'm that's where I'm getting stuck on.
    88:52
    Well, yeah, given the given the the theme and the era that both movies are from, it's a it would be a logical comparison at this point Then when you only using that back there damn like you really need to lean into that into that space I just remember when barrels came on the scene that was the thing that before people saw any gameplay, that was the thing that excited everyone was all the 3D sculpting that they went to the trouble of having made. And a lot of places don't. That was a thing that kind of stood out with Elton John, was they had quite a few sculpts. But, you know, when you're at that price point, people are starting to You'd be like, well, of course, it's $12,000 to $15,000. You have to. Well, and nowadays, because plastics are so much cheaper than molding, even Stern's getting really crafty with their plastics. Because think about, like, Joel's. You've got a lot of booty rates or whatever, a lot of plastics, but they're really good now at layering their plastics in a way that makes the Orca really look like a ship, layering different plastics where they have different artwork on them. And I think they tried to do that with the castle here. It just feels a little bit, it's just not there yet. It's very, very flat.
    90:05
    But that's, but it's full. It still looks like a world. But you don't have the art blades like you got on Labyrinth that pull you in a little bit more. So there's still some things. That's just what it felt like to me. If I was a Princess Bride fan, I'd be happy with this. But it just makes me naturally compare it to Labyrinth. I'm like, eh, there's not really. What did you think of the layout? Because this looks to me like it may be the easiest layout they've ever released. This gives me vibes of, like I'm starting to see, I think Steven Silver designed this. I'm starting to feel his design, the pattern of design, because this feels like heist to me. The shot, I guess there's only so much you can do in the back third, but it's starting to feel very samey. Almost Borg-like in some ways. It feels like heist. And a little weird out, but very much like heist. And you're right. Two main ramps, pretty easy to hit.
    91:04
    There's, I don't know, just layout-wise, it's pretty basic. I wondered if it was by design to make it, to be a tie. Because I still remember, like, the first time I played Lexi Lightspeed, it just, actually, every time I think I've played it, it's just kicked my butt. Oh, yeah. And I wondered, one of the criticisms Stern had with Turtles was, why'd you make such a hard game for such a family-friendly theme? It feels like they're going like, this is Princess Bride. So many people are going to be interested in this. Let's let them have fun and access everything, which is not necessarily a bad thing. But, yeah, I'm with you. It does nothing for me. When I watched the two different live and then the prerecorded this morning on the footage of Buffalo both times, and it may have just been sheer luck that I clipped two, they were long balls. Like people were really going at it. But, of course, when you have good players, it's possible there as well. I just noticed, yeah, it looked not – I mean, it's using the upper flippers, I believe, for some of those side shots. So I'm not going to call it a fan layout. There's one loop up there. But it does look fairly kind. It's basic. Yeah, it's basic. Yeah, like that middle ramp looks very wide, the one that goes up to back right and such. And so I figured it was by design. I think so. I wonder if that's an attempt for the theme so that people kind of feel like they're having a good length of time on it. That's what I was talking about earlier, like with what Keith Elwin could do with his designs.
    92:30
    They just feel different. This may play different. This just doesn't look like it feels much different than other modules we've seen on this game. It almost feels like, well, we're going to do some stand-up plastics that make the environment different. but this is the Princess Bride so we're selling you the IP and the rules of this game being different than anything else. That's what it felt like to me. What did you think of the main play field display? I already talked a bit about how I don't really care for the really long clips taking up such a huge chunk of it but I get why they're doing it because it feels like, one of the things I really like about what P3 does with the screen is how they can display the rules of what you need to do there, like down by the slings with a little book thing. I thought that looked good. And I also like the, I'll call them the circular pop-ups where they'd have like a picture of like Farm Boy 1 would pop up and the image would be. I like that. And they sort of show the things that are active in the circles. So when they were doing that, I liked it. But the backdrop is always like this static map. I'm okay with more static art. I am. But I would have, and I don't know if it would, again, I'm just, I'm spitballing here. I liked how Scott Denisey did it with Final Resistance, where it was like a traditional pinball. Yeah, I want more of that. I always want more of that. This, I think they're like, people liked the staticness of it, but they decided to do like this map of the world, which has been a while since I've seen the movie, I think like five or six years. But I don't remember maps ever being like a really big deal in it. So it just kind of feels like it's just sort of there instead of I would have rather than maybe do some princess, static playfield style art with some insert markings and stuff like Scott did. They do it on the module. You see all those arrows and stuff. I love that. I wished it was doing that down lower. A lack of what do we put there. It truly is. And that's why I'm sure they're like, wow, well, we can take up the whole sort of top half almost, I'll say top third-ish with the scenes from the movie to fill up that space because otherwise you're just staring at, like, this river. Yeah, what do we put there? Because in the LCD on the back box, that's where they put, like, the UI. It feels very much like kind of like Jersey Jack. I love it. Yeah, I heard someone make a comparison to that about, like, the animations really reminding them sort of Hobbit. Yeah, and the back box is awesome because it's, like, I guess the kid's room or something. And then that is almost a UI that's built into items in the room that shows you what to do next or what mode. Like, that was cool. I did like the back box display, yes. But then you get down to the main LCD and it's like, shit, when we're not showing a movie, what are we going to show? We've got to show something. And they resort to kind of a map. Yes. Almost like a static computer background or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Wallpaper. Yep. Got to have something on there. Kind of like wallpaper. But it's well done. So while I like the final Resistance look better, This still, I rate quite a bit higher than probably any other multimorphic game that's readily popping in my head. Well, it just doesn't feel like it's making use of our whole screen much more than, like, a highway pinball did with their, you know, little monitor. We've talked about it before. It's tough because, I mean, let's say you're going to do that in a really dynamic way and all the effort, all the programming just for those assets. You can't beat the animation nowadays. You can't. There's no way. You'd have to be a video game company, and at that point you'd be making more money than pinball would make. It's just never going to be there, ever. Unless they just dive into AI and they figure it the fuck out, that's the only hope that I see for that being utilized in a dynamic way that makes more sense than what we currently have that are selling 50 times more in a regular wood offering product. I just don't see it. So it looked all right. I wish it looked a little more pinball-y down there. The other thing that kind of stood out to me, now that I'm playing Jaws a lot, Labyrinth a lot, Elton John, is the more games that are developed for the P3, the more similarities that I'm seeing on features that just can't be changed.
    96:47
    Like the scoop wall? Yeah, and that's a selling feature. So that's okay because you can still many games stem into that stuff. But I'm talking like the lower part. There's a lot you can do with it. Like the outlanes, they're always going to be the same. The swing positioning, the shape, the function. Now, between designers, listeners, even Stern Pinball, within one company, all of that stuff is different. Keith, that one does his slings different. Different size. Hell, I think on Jaws, one of them is a different size sling. Yeah, I think so. You get different angles. You get different inlanes that come sweeping. Like, there's so much more that you can do where it's just more and more on this P3. It's all the same. You can't change it. Side targets are the same. Same spot. That's a sacrifice that had to be made by going with a platform. And in their defense, there are designers like Steve Ritchie who quite publicly has stated he never changes the lower third of his games. He always keeps them exactly the same. And that's fine. That is okay.
    97:42
    But he's not the only designer from Stern Pinball. Well, he's not the designer at all from Stern Pinball. Sure. But when he was making that argument at Stern, he wasn't the only designer. Like, you still get stuff that feels different. I know what you're saying. everyone's locked into this lower third. Yeah, and maybe that's what's making me feel like some of the design elements are the same, too, because it just, stuff starts to feel the same a lot. I would like to see them be able to, because they've brought stuff down on the play field, like Weird Al and stuff like that. I would like to see them take more time in figuring out a way to change up bottom third stuff, especially if you're handicapped with just that back third. Find a way to pull it. Find a way to pull it down. Do some other stuff. I get from the variety standpoint why you would want it, but, I mean, just like any other company, they have to balance that with us. How much is that going to cost? How much more would the module cost to do one lower play field gimmick, for example? Yeah, you're right. You're right. Efficiency-wise and sales-wise, it makes more sense to say, we'll spend a lot of money on the Princess Bride, which they did, and they gave us a nice world, which they did, and they utilized all of the assets, which they did. if I'm using this platform, this is probably what I do too. That probably makes the most sense. I did want to also say that it looked like this was the best animation work they've had so far in the game. Oh, yeah.
    99:03
    So overall, I think this is a win. This is a win. Yeah, this is a win. Definitely a win. I'm not going to pay. I'm not going to buy one. Just, I don't, it's still not my type of game, platform-wise. But the game, I'm looking forward to playing it. And I love that they leaned into whoever's coding some of the modes. They leaned into that. Because I hate the multiple flippers. He might not know that, but many of the listeners here do. I can't stand them. Just ergonomically, they're incorrect. They're a fucking mess, in my opinion. But they leaned into it on one of the modes where it seemed appropriate, where the guy puts his hand behind his back, and you have to use multiple buttons on the side to control both flippers. So I'm like, ah, that's clever in that I hate that flipper thing so much that they're like, you hate it so much, we're going to make you choose multiple buttons in one of our modes. And that, I will say, the modes are cool. They're integrated very, very well. You get like that mode or what was the other mode? The poison one, you have to go make shots to spell Iocane to make yourself immune. If you don't, it resets or fails you depending on if you have made any progress or anything. Some of the modes were gimmicky, and I love that. Like, they feel like more than just shooting a flashing shot. Yeah, I think in the true love mode, they were like you have to go around and collect kisses or something. Yes.
    100:33
    That's pretty amazing. I'm trying to think the clip. The clip was something. Every correct shot, it goes up more and more. I love all of that. So the modes is more my style of the coding. I really like that kind of stuff. It doesn't confuse me. Yeah, that's that world under glass stuff that you love. I do like that. All right, so that's the new P3 game, The Princess Bride.
    101:02
    Are you going to buy one? No. I mean, not currently. I may try it at TPS. I usually try and try all the new stuff. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. But point blank, because I don't own a P3, This is very expensive, and I can't sit in and good conscious complain about $12,000 JJPs when this is only $500 less.
    101:26
    I'm glad. I'll give them credit. They're finally, I think on the LE or something, they're putting art on the front of their cabinet.
    101:36
    And they said that there's like a metal plate that current adopters can put into their cabinet so they can accept, I guess, the magnet artwork for the front of the cab.
    101:46
    That's a big enhancement. Thank God. We've got to thank some people. Do you think any of our screaming goat club members are buying this P3 game, Princess Bride? One might. Okay.
    102:01
    I think any of them are upset that they've had this game and can't buy the seat. No. You are the only person in the entire world that cares about that. No, I am not. Believe me. I am not. I don't believe it. There are many of us. No. Thank you, Rodney, for supporting the pinball show the way that you do.
    102:21
    Thanks, Bobcat. Oh, shoot that fucker. Bumblebee, Steve. Jablonski. Maybe do the Bumblebee. Thanks for the support, Steve. Wob. The pamper.
    102:39
    That was fun. Maybe I will buy the princess prey Thank you, Panther The kineticist Colin I got the Okay, thank you, Flank And the Falcon Dave, thank you, Shako Moto For Wet swimmer Thank you Joe for the Support And Charlie The bell Wing the bell On a wedding day Thank you William What a fucking lawyer man I want Bill Kumsler Man Or Ron Cooby I appreciate it for all the support I'm going to do the rest of our episode like that I can't Thank you I'm going to read Damien's haggis wedding Thank you all for the support And for being part of the Screaming Goat Club We love you all We got to do the one the only People are waiting for it. They want it. One day I'm going to pull all the pinball market trends together into one giant marathon. That's a lot of screaming. People would have to redo their speakers after that. No, that's only if they listen to the latest episode of Summer Ball Card.
    104:23
    Wow, poor Dave did it. We got to jump into it. It's the one, it's the only. It's pinball market twins. I like your style, dude.
    104:44
    Twending up this week. Twending up this week is, honestly, the titles that are now starting to dry up a bit. Listen, be on the lookout. If you're wanting a Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or a Guardians of the Galaxy, I've seen over the last two weeks, at least sales-wise on my end, from my company, an increase in sales from those titles that are starting to dry up. Now, I don't think there's anything special that people are, you know, I think the sales for me are increasing because maybe somebody has a regular distributor that they go see or that they buy games from, and that distributor may now be out of games that we can't reorder, such as discontinued models, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, and the final run of Guardians of the Galaxy. Thus, if their dealer is out, then they start calling around. So those titles are starting to dry up, and as a result, the market reflects that in a training up of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, both pro and premium, LA as well, and Guardians of the Galaxy. Hell, even finding a Guardians premium nowadays, like a unicorn, it really is tough to do. So we've seen increased pricing. We've seen increased, well, probably increased pricing, but we've seen increased sales on those titles that are drying up. Think of, like, how Aerosmith wasn't really that popular, but now the market on them is higher than something really even popular, like a Foo Fighters, because there wasn't as many made or that they're harder to get nowadays. They're not continuing to run those. So, trending up just objectively. Hey, look, it's not always sexy people. It's just hashtag facts. So, TMNT, GOTG, Bobo Lee, Bobo is up. Trending down this week, unfortunately.
    106:27
    Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just here as a conduit of information and this week trending down is Haggis Tendon see I might not like to trend it down because I have an association sales wise business wise with this company but when the pinball market trend fairy whispers in my ear Dennis sometimes it's kinky shit that I'm not opposed to other times it's simply the truth is when Damien came out and said some of the things instead in that email update. It surprised some. It worried others. And objectively, it's a trending down in my books. Just is what it is. Also trending down this week, apparently it's paying for content. Whether it's movies, series, music, videos, hell, you guys all do it. But God forbid if it's in the podcast medium. Dennis. Did you see us being brought up on social media a couple weeks ago with our paywalled episode on me potentially getting sued by American Pinball?
    107:37
    Wow. No, actually, I didn't see that. There was a post that came up, and then everybody was, oh, that's some bullshit. And then other people were like, well, if you're bitching about it, then fucking just go listen to it.
    107:50
    I don't understand that. Yeah, I guess I'm a little surprised. Maybe I shouldn't. I mean, I get it that people don't want to pay for stuff. Sure. I have seen a number of messages like, is there a way to listen to this without paying? No. I know people message us that all the time. Hey, do you think it's just normal? The answer is no. Just don't listen. If you don't want to pay, don't listen.
    108:07
    Here's the thing, and I don't mean this to sound mean. I don't owe any of you anything. Nervous flash.
    108:19
    And that shouldn't come as a surprise to anyone. So, like, Stern's not cutting me subsidy checks to come out and do podcasts. This show will be the title of this episode. I'm just saying, I completely understand there are plenty of shows that I have dropped that wanted to start costing money, or I make the evaluation. I'm like, I'm not going to pay for that additional stuff, even if I think it's interesting. I do that with news sites all the time. Sure. And totally fair. Totally fair. But I'm not obligated to give you anything. I get why it would upset people because if you're enjoying something, you want to hear all of that something. And if that something costs a little bit of money, more than $0, I get some frustration. I even feel for those people because I feel the same way and I'm in the same situation in a lot of ways. You get a streaming platform that has one show that you've been watching, one show, and you're like, damn it. Can I really justify? And I have to make that decision. but I generally am not that person that then goes online and starts going you know what, fuck you for having this content behind a page who are you? I think sometimes people remember before there was the Patreon levels and then after, so if it makes anyone feel any better because I have no idea if it would or wouldn't we would not have covered that topic if there wasn't the Patreon we wouldn't have done it wouldn't have been a segment in the old days It would just not have been done. And, in fact, I've not run the numbers, Zach, but numbers don't lie. And I think it's pretty safe to say, ever since we started up doing the Patreon, we record longer now than we used to. So we've actually added content. It's additional content. We didn't take a portion of the content and move it. There are topics that would have been less covered but then free that are now more covered and are paid, but there's still more overall recording. There's more content. It's not. So you still get the same amount of stuff as in the old days. Not that we're obligated to give you that. And the data that we have back is the listenership is up higher than when we did it. So all of that is supportive. But back to the thing. What I don't understand is making online posting with opinions on the content that you didn't listen to. That's kind of weird. I don't under, like, having an opinion and putting it out there based on what you think may be in that content. That was frustrating. Because I'm like, you didn't fucking listen to it. Like, how do you have a stance if you don't even know what the content was? Like, come on. You feel it in the bones. The bones. Do they lie? Do bones lie? Numbers don't lie. Do bones? It frustrates me when we're used as this little platform to shit on whenever they don't even, come on, man. Leave us alone. All right. Because of that, if you want to deal the week, it's behind the paywall.
    111:21
    I'm joking. There's no deal behind the paywall. But some of you already were like, that son of a bitch. Look, people, as always, I'm just here to report the facts because numbers don't lie, and neither shall I on pinball market twins. Where can people catch you, Dennis? They can email CollectorsGamersPodcast at gmail.com. Don't ask how to spell it. Just figure it out. And if you're wanting to speak with Dennis and I, you can easily do so by joining the Patreon.
    111:53
    The pinball show at that $100 level. Boy, you will have a straight line to Dennis and I. So you can do that now. You can email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com. Or you can speak with us in that club membership in Discord, too. Hell, we're in there, too, having a lot of fun.
    112:11
    Go follow, like, and subscribe to the Pinball Show on Facebook and different social media, same as straight down the middle of a video series that I do with Greg Bone. And the sponsor of this podcast is Flippin' Out Pinball. When I buy my pinballs, then I buy from Flippin' Out. From Toppers, I'm from TV, I've got it figured out. Flippin' Out, figured out. When I take a pinball, I think Flippin' Out. When I fly, fly, fly, I fly from Flippin' Out. Fly, fly, fly. Product showcase this week. It's got to be Star Wars.
    112:47
    It's coming out in March. It hasn't been here for a year and a half. Pre-order yours today. Do it. It's really painless. You just go to FlippinOutPinball.com. Add one to your cart. I myself would recommend the premium. It's got one of the best toys in all of pinball history. And click checkout. See? That was painless. It was simple. Now keep in mind that $500 that you just spent is non-refundable. We have all types of games at Flippin' Out Pinball in stock, including some of the most highly successful, award-winning, high-sales games like Godzilla, Jurassic Park. We've got all of that stuff. I even got an Elvira Blood Red Kiss edition, Blood Red Bite edition. Elton John's CEs are taking pre-orders for those still. We've got James Bond. We've got Avengers, Foo Fighters, Maiden, Jurassic Parks, Hot Wheels. We've got GTFs, Toy Stories. We've got it all, Dennis. And I have a couple more Ripley edition aliens that should be here this week or next. So if you want one of those, those things sell pretty quick. We're still selling the PGA Golden Tees. Those are going, those are, that and Big Buck Hunter. People have been buying those lately, left and right. A lot of accessories people are buying from Flippin' Out Pinball. We would love to earn your business. So if we don't have it yet, reach out to us at Zach, C-A-C-H, at FlippinOutPinball.com. Let us know what you have received in the past from a distributor that really works for you, that you like, or that you would like to see us do more of. And we'll also, if you have any questions as to why we stand out different than any other of the distribution network in this industry, we'll inform you of those differences as well. Just reach out to us, message us. Or you can text me at 812-457-9711. Did you see me sneak peek the new facility, Dennis, the Forking Out facility? I saw there was some sneaking. Little wooden ceilings, some shiplap. Oh, my God. I should have opened up the show with this. we swore not to do metallic epoxy flooring. We swore in this showroom we weren't going to do it. We're just going to clear coat the concrete. But I'll let you know, listener, for those of you know, then you know that we were trying to do that because of a stain or two on the concrete and weren't able to do that. So, yep, it looks like we're doing the metallic epoxy yet again. Oh, no. All over a couple of stupid stations. Just throw a rug over them. I know, but it's got to be nice. Flipping out with friends, Joel Engelberth last week streamed Jaws. Not Jaws. Pro. Stern Pinball. And the week before that, did a chatting stream with Dennis Creasel and others. That was a lot of fun. I don't know what he's doing this week. Maybe another chatting stream. I don't think I'll be able to give him a Pulp Fiction this week. Maybe next week. waiting for that stainless coin door to open one for the showroom. So that's coming, as well as what else was I going to get him? Why don't we get him a Jaws Premium LE to stream and a Texas Chainsaw Massacre.
    116:03
    Getting that or Looney Tunes. That'll be a lot of fun. Dennis, any word on what happened here at TPN last week? Yeah, actually, we had a few episodes come out. We've already talked about the aforementioned audio, now repaired, Silver Ball Chronicles, which is their Token Roger Sharp episode. Before that, we had an episode of Final Round named Rumors with a clever modified Rumors album of Fleetwood Mac for the cover art, which makes me once again lament the one dad rock band we still haven't had that's worth having, Fleetwood Mac. We'll get it. And a non-numbered Triple Drain episode that talked about the return of Papa. I forgot to put that in the notes. We'll talk about that next time. Papa's back in a big way, not just Pinnberg, but the Papa Championship Series is back, too. Very cool. All right, Dennis, teach these people something. Guys and gals, everyone listening, look, I get it. I don't get it, but I kind of get it. You want the shark to eat the ball on Jaws, okay? Why is no one asking why the princess doesn't eat the ball on Princess Pride? Why are we not asking this? Not the clips of insanity. That's from the movie. Just like a shark never ate a ball in the movie, The princess, something, have one of the rats, the giant arrowy rat. I forget the letters, but just like nothing eats the ball. What is with all the lack of eating ball? And always practice safe pinball. And if you're looking for a world under glass, a 3D world under glass, purchase the game that people are raving about. A game that probably still sold more units in the last month than even the newest Princess Bride did on opening sales day. And that is the 3D world under glass of Laughland. Bye-bye, guys.
    118:06
    I did not abandon American Hellboy. Don't listen to those other podcasters. They don't know, but you should be careful, because I am the caped canary in the coal mine. I was going to say, they're going to start calling you Canary Man. Caw-caw. Who knows what evils lurk in the hearts of tortious interference.
    118:27
    No one puts the word man in a bird's eye. Yeah. You threaten the law, I go caw-caw. you