Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 43 - Our Top 5 Games and Expo Prep!

The Pinball Network·video·2h 11m·analyzed·Oct 11, 2023

Analysis

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TL;DR

Triple Drain debates Venom's rule complexity and accessibility in pinball game design.

Summary

Triple Drain Podcast hosts Joel, Travis, and Tom discuss their top 5 pinball games and expo preparation, with substantial focus on Venom (Stern, 2023). They debate the game's rule set complexity, accessibility for casual vs. competitive players, and the distinction between Pro and Premium versions. A key tension emerges around whether Venom's design is overly complicated or whether players are psyching themselves out by not reading the rule card or engaging with the game intentionally.

Key Claims

Venom's rule card is 32 pages long but most of the content is padding (large font, wide margins, full pages of filler); the actual playable content is much less.
medium confidence · Joel, Travis, and Tom discussing rule card length; Tom suggests the 32-page claim is exaggerated by formatting tricks.
The core mechanic of Venom is simple: hit two lit shots (same color-coded lights), which is fundamentally similar to the game Simon or color-matching puzzles.
high confidence · Multiple speakers (Joel, Travis, Tom) emphasize the color-matching core mechanic; direct comparison to Simon made by one speaker.
The Venom Pro is easier and smoother to play than the Premium because the Premium's additional mechs (up-down posts, diverters) change shot paths unpredictably and can interrupt timing.
high confidence · Travis directly states he prefers the Pro; explains mechanical changes on Premium (Gwyn ramp, Doppelgänger behavior) that add complexity.
Carrie Hardy (pinball YouTuber) made a critical video about Venom without reading the rule card, which the hosts found problematic.
high confidence · Joel mentions Carrie Hardy admitted at the end of his video that he put 'zero effort' into learning the game before playing; hosts cite this as an example of unfair criticism.
Venom's design allows new/casual players to stumble into multiball by simply hitting two green lights, requiring zero prior knowledge.
high confidence · Tom and Joel explain that a complete novice could hit two green arrows and trigger multiball without understanding the system.
The Stern Pro Circuit Championship is coming up, and Travis plans to prepare by playing Venom Premium intensively.
high confidence · Travis states: 'I'll play it next week when I get back from Super Series I'll play it to get prepared for the stern pro circuit Championship I'm going to pick it the whole entire time.'
Some players prefer the Venom Pro because shots are more 'wide open' and visible, while the Premium's mechanical changes make shots less consistent and harder to read.
high confidence · Travis: 'I kind of like the pro better' because 'you can see the shots better'; discusses consistency issues with Premium's diverters.

Notable Quotes

“I think most people that when they walk up to a pinball machine they want to know two things they want to know how do I start a mode how do I start a multiball”
Joel@ 13:57 — Frames the accessibility debate: casual players vs. tournament players have fundamentally different needs from a rule set.
“it's literally that that's what this game is and people have convinced themselves it's they have to know like all these different Combos and memorize it”
Tom@ 21:17 — Captures the core frustration: players are psyching themselves out rather than engaging simply with color-matching.
“you don't have to know an entire rule set the first picture is just a big picture of Venom... there's only... less than 1% of players in the world that even need to know that”
Joel@ 11:38 — Defends the rule card's usability; argues most players will never need deep knowledge.
“I am admitting that I put forth zero effort before stepping in front of that game to to try to learn how to play the game”
Carrie Hardy (cited)@ 20:04 — Hosts cite this as proof that negative reviews sometimes stem from lack of engagement, not game design flaws.
“it's just pinball just have fun like attach it to something else that's the big thing have fun”
Travis@ 29:36 — Expresses the broader philosophy: players should enjoy pinball on their own terms rather than feel obligated to master every rule.
“Venom is kind of attack from Mars of light if you really look at just going to say it's kind slightly like that”

Entities

VenomgameJoelpersonTravis MuriepersonTompersonCarrie HardypersonJasonperson Zackperson

Signals

?
gameplay_signal: Substantial debate over whether Venom's rule set is actually complex or if players are self-sabotaging through assumptions and refusal to engage with materials. Hosts argue the core mechanic (color-matching combos) is simple and comparable to Simon; complexity is self-imposed.
high · Joel: 'people are just completely losing their minds by psyching themselves out'; Tom: 'people have convinced themselves it's [complicated]... it's literally that... color coordinate lights we've all played Simon'; Travis emphasizes rule card is mostly padding.
?
product_concern: Premium version of Venom may have reliability/consistency issues due to added mechs (up-down posts, diverters) that disrupt shot timing and alter ball flow unpredictably compared to Pro.
medium · Travis: 'the up down post hurts it... the diverter makes that shot a little clunkier'; notes Gwyn ramp changes between versions; mentions similar pattern with Godzilla and Avengers where Pro preferred over Premium.
~
sentiment_shift: Shift in community trust of negative Venom reviews after Carrie Hardy's video, where he admitted to reviewing without reading the rule card. Hosts frame this as delegitimizing negative criticism.
high · Joel: 'I do appreciate that [Carrie] admitted to not reading the rule card'; 'he's like I am admitting that I put forth zero effort'; hosts discuss this as key context for dismissing his negative assessment.
?
community_signal: Jason from Pinball Party departed The Pinball Network to launch independent content. Announced with explicit 'no bad blood' messaging; hosts encourage audience to follow him independently.
high · Joel: 'Jason pinball party uh has officially left uh tpn um no bad blood no problem at all but he left'; 'make sure you subscribe to him on his own channel.'

Topics

Venom rule set complexity and accessibilityprimaryPro vs. Premium mechanical differences and playabilityprimaryPlayer psychology and self-imposed barriers to enjoymentprimaryBalancing casual vs. competitive rule designprimaryPinball tutorial and onboarding best practicessecondaryContent creator responsibility and game review standardssecondaryCompetitive pinball tournament preparationsecondaryPinball game design philosophy and historysecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.55)— Hosts express frustration with player complaints about Venom's complexity, viewing them as unfounded and self-inflicted. However, they acknowledge legitimate design tensions between casual and competitive audiences. Overall tone is defensive of Venom's design but recognizes broader industry design challenges. Positive sentiment toward Jason's departure (no drama) and enthusiasm for upcoming competitive events.

Transcript

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[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball podcast holy crap Travis's camera just went out and just came back on that tells you so any any listener or anybody that's watching this on YouTube Travis's camera 30 minutes that's what it's got It's got 30 minutes before it shuts off so that's how long we've been talking since before we just hit this button so we that I think we actually had an official like meeting before we recorded is what it seems like are you are we already sick of each other after 30 minutes is that Tom are you sick sick of us yet yes yes okay Travis are you sick of us are you what is that English are you sick of us yet are you sick no I love Tom Tom's fing Beauty you though you suck oh perfect all right hitting the button we're three guys who like to talk so we came up with a CL our name we're Jo and TR talk in all and we call ourselves triple dra triple dra triple dra Tri trip best song ever it is a great song it is a great song shout out to Jason for giving us that Jason pinball party pinball party uh has officially left uh tpn um no bad blood no problem at all but he left so definitely check make sure CU he's still making episodes make sure you subscribe to him on his own channel Travis is holding his hand up what do you want you told me no Doom and Gloom and I felt bad for telling you you sucked but then as I raised my hand you went straight to something else that's Doom and Gloom that's a doom and gloom I don't know what to think right now Jason's still doing his thing he's just doing it on his own you just announced it he's doing his it's not this is not new news he's doing his own thing just make sure if you guys enjoyed pinball party he has his own it's his own separate channel so shout out Jason appreciate God Travis what do you want I extended my apology to you you just went right over it you're like my wife I say I'm sorry you're just you just go off and do something else you want I forgive you is that are those the words you're looking for no I I just want to be heard that's all I hear you and I see you I don't think the bouncing hand will carry through to the final video but I wish it did cuz it's it's great it's the only way I can get your attention oh boy all right what was it uh Tom has like an air horn sound but didn't you do that once used your soundboard to like that's how you got yeah but I don't I don't have it here anymore you know I just noticed guys we messed up we talked for 30 minutes and we forgot to type out I got it I got the road map I got it God help us what would we do without Joel you would probably be more successful I bet you could do it you could do it for sure this is the Travis podcast hey remember remember originally it was going to be a Tom gra solo podcast it was and then it a Tom and Travis podcast and I somehow inserted myself into the mix so you know the wh ifs this could be this could what what could have been we felt bad for the straight what imagine me imagine me talking for like 30 minutes I know 30 minutes exactly there wouldn't be a twoh hour long podcast that's for sure there's zero chance at that um but all right well uh topic number one topic number one on our list was Venom there have been more and more people have played Venom and it has been entertaining watching the uh people's thoughts it has been entertaining watching People's thoughts on their first initial experience I've seen some that are really good you know there's a lot of Le buyers out there that are like this game's awesome they love the way it shoots somebody I think somebody said like this they feel this is like one of the best fan layouts ever uh I know hottie Frisco pinball just got his he's raving loving it um but then there's other people whether it's on pinside or you know huge shout out to the one the only Carrie Hardy Carrie Hardy made a video on his initial impression on on um Venom Carrie actually used uh a clip from my streams he also used a clip from the pinball company Travis's video on on um supporting his views how did that compare yeah I'm curious yes um notice he didn't use any of my Clips yeah he should have just got all go through of them in there but um Carrie had the view of he he did not he has not enjoyed Venom and um I am shocked Carri talking bad about a pinball game on his YouTube channel no yeah yeah doesn't happen so I know I get it I get that the initial imp the initial reaction when Venom was revealed was that it was wide open or there there wasn't much there and I will say Zack at fliping out just recently swapped out the Venom Pro that I had for a Venom premium and now that I have one here in the house and actually looking at what's going on in the background there there's a lot of mechs actually there for for the up down ramps and the diverters that are needed for the game to change the way does there's a lot of mechs back there that you don't even realize are there until you play the game so is are there obvious mechs stuff popping out of the Playfield and whatnot it's not as obvious as some other games out there on the market but once you actually play the game and realize how different it shoots depending on your character I don't know I at now see the value or see what is what is added with the premium in Le Travis I know you have a premium at the pinball company do you agree with with that I mean and I know Tom you've played the premium but I don't think you've played a pro right no I've played Pros you've played both do you see or do you feel that there's a big difference between the premium and pro I mean it there's there's a significant difference um yeah I mean because you have like just like you said you have all the mechs in there that that change your your paths and shots and everything so but but uh I kind of like the pro better oh okay and why is that yeah just a little more wide open you can see the shots better that's main main reason I wish they did the doppelganger in the Pro yeah yeah that is a fun Mech doppelganger in the Pro is a wide open shot it's one shot doppelganger in the premium is three in small targets and it makes it a challenge like actually hitting the right target is a challenge while the dppa ganger on the pro was like boom you just hit a hit the wide open shot very easy Travis you've you've played both you you've had more time no no you haven't played a premium Pro we have a premium but I just stare at it and walk by it and go to the pro I will say I just haven't had time to play it yet I'll play it next week when I get back from Super Series I'll play it to get prepared for the stern pro circuit Championship I'm going to pick it the whole entire time yes there's I will say hot take I've i' I've put more time on the pro the pro is easier I I AB I actually think the pro is easier and it's because the shots don't change once you figured it out you figured it out it's not like it's ever going to change the Horseshoe was a relatively safe shot uh in my opinion both sides of it so there were in my opinion multiple consistent reliable safe shots in that game in the Pro that now all of a sudden with the premium are not as consistent or reliable um for example the Gwyn Gwyn on the pro it's just a horseshoe but on a premium that's when the middle 180 ramp is actually all the way up and acts like the Horseshoe so you wouldd think Gwyn when you pick gendam it would be almost the exact same as what you get with the pro but it's not when you go through the right side of the Horseshoe there's an up down post that will actually come up and slow down the ball or stop the ball and I found that actually can cause the ball to like now go a little bit to the left towards the middle of the game like middle of the flippers or that little bit of hold up throws off your timing like it actually in my opinion the up down post hurts it it doesn't help it doesn't it's not a safety measure um or because there's a diverter back there that can change it like that diverter makes that shot a little clunkier than on the pro because it's just a stagnant horseshoe so it's like little stuff like that that I do personally like the premium more because I love how the game is changing based on your character but if you're if you want to focus solely on shots the pro is probably the the way to go in that sense because it is a smoother way but that's that's not unheard of I mean there are people that argue Godzilla Pro is better than premium because of that people argue um Avengers Pro is better than the premium because of that like just you know you start removing next out you get more smooth consistent reliable shots am I now here's the real question did you read the rule card so so this is not a dig at anybody in particular but but hypothetically if you were going toally hpthe yes this is all hypothetical everybody like potentially this is hypothetical if you're if you're potentially going to put your op do with this statement if you're going to put your opinion out to the pinball masses you know on on what your views are your initial Impressions on the code and how easy it is to understand the code you would thinke hypthetically think we think you think you might you might maybe read the rules you might now I understand the rule card which is on every pinball machine ever lower left right there boom rule card that's a lot to ask that's a lot to that's like 10 sentences way more to ask is a 32 page PDF that Dwight wrote that's on the stern website I get that I get that and I get 32p page PDF maybe too much okay wait wait wait I've heard people talking about this and I don't I don't know where this is coming from yes I will contend it's 32 pages but if you've actually gone to read it it is literally like whoever wrote that I assume Dwight did it it's almost like the way I would write my papers in high school to try to get away with making the font as big as possible the margins as big as possible because I want to lengthen out my paper as much as I can there's just no comparison I think there's 32 Pages triple spaced there's not 32 pages of content on there they have a full page of DJ mixer stuff on there I mean why do some I mean it's fine what I'm saying is is yes it is thorough for what it is but people are just completely losing their minds by psyching themselves out that they have to know 32 Pages worth of content like I'm here to tell you there's only there's less than 1% of players in the world that even need to know that because they're even capable of doing that I mean that's the thing it's like you don't have to know an entire rule set the the first picture is just a big picture of Venom too the first page really only 3 go so what's the second page we probably T content no we got plenty of time let's look through it real quick all right page two how to and roll guide like that's all it it just tells you an overview real quick an overview if you if the argument is if the argument is it's not 32 Pages it's only 30 I still that's a I I think the argument I understood when I got into the pinball there would be no reading whatsoever what do people what do people to tell me what to do what do people really want out of modern pinb do we want em rule set Joel is that what we want do we want just like a little drop Target I I we want just I I really think that every game should have the exact same rules exact same score there you go just change the layout change the theme I have even a better idea we should come up with a rule set to where we don't even have modes in the game we just do Combos and guess what we just have three colors for those combos but how would you tell somebody they're doing a combo how would you show them that yeah I would I would just point and I would say you hit this shot uhuh and then you hit this shot with the wait wait wait if the shots the shots aren't lit oh light hit it no light you you don't touch it you don't deal with it you just you just hit that's what I would do we should do a r setus yeah we should do R set with three colors and then you know what we should we should do a roll set too with like a green triangle type light that represents a lock does it say lock I think it says lock and then you just you hit it and then eventually the machine will spit out more balls that you can keep above the flippers so that's okay so one of the things I said in our chat earlier was I think most people that when they walk up to a pinball machine they want to know two things they want to know how do I start a mode how do I start a multiball if you're a tournament player then you go like how do I get a play field X how do I get out ball there's a little completely that's completely different though I mean a tournament player here's the thing Joel here's the thing and and people have to get this out of their heads yeah if you're a casual right or you just play and you don't play in tournaments then yeah you yeah you don't need to know how to maximize your points you're playing the game for an entirely different reason right mhm and that's perfectly cool like good on you so that means you can explore the Playfield a little bit more you can find out what's going on because that's part of the fun now if you're not going to have fun by doing that what's your other choice you have to learn the rules yeah how do you learn the rules if you're not going to shoot around and figure it out well you got to read you got to read the rule card we can go we can go a few different ways here so we're going to go all the ways Joel okay so the two things that come to mind right okay you have you have stuff like you have something like a video game now some people hate how certain modern games have like a tutorial thing they're like I just want to play the video game the tutorial but you look at other games they talk about like how Super Mario Brothers you know level one one is a perfect intro because it puts obstacles in your way you only have two buttons and you got to figure out oh I have to jump or I have to this some people want that they say don't don't spoon feed me how to play the game but make it something that you can figure out as you go pinball games aren't linear like the how do we do that for pinball do we say when like do I treat it like I do with my twin daughters when the ball gets close to your flipper you flip you flip y yeah is that the tutorial if we're going to go back to people want modes and people want multiball they're maybe they're looking at the Playfield going where where is there a physical ball lock okay obviously right there so I'm going to keep shooting in that direction to see if it locks a ball maybe that's how they think they get to multiball otherwise they might they might read the rule card to so you know learn how to get to the multiball maybe maybe maybe they do maybe maybe maybe maybe but a mode I would say modern pinball most people are how do I get into a mode how do I get into something and usually the safe bet with a Stern game is ramp ramp you hit both ramps and then you find whatever shot starts the mode like that's pretty safe unless it's rush and you got to you know light a record and all that right I mean that's or Walking Dead Or Avengers but now James Bond code latest James Bond code you don't even have to do ramp ramp it's just one ramp one ramp starts a villain mode it's like a bozo villain mode now straighten the villain mod time you're in I'm in it and but then there's others some of the classic older games it's you hit whatever shot you hit you just hit it three times and you're watching the inserts light up so I get that there's those are certain like Staples that it's like well maybe it's this maybe it's that well guess what Venom is not that Venom is not that they're trying something new so I could understand how people that are not stuck but set in their ways of what they think most games how you attack them Venom is different than that but it still doesn't make any sense though because I've heard some people comparing it to attack from Mars in a way that they're like I wish that the rule set was like attack from Mars to where you just fill up a certain area and stuff like that and it's like Venom is kind of attack from Mars of light if you really look at just going to say it's kind slightly like that yeah yes exactly that's why when people are talking about I wish it was like aack from Mars I'm like bro it's literally is just one shot like you're getting so many people are just getting in their own way instead of hitting a shot three times on a ramp you're hitting the lit lights two two two two shot one shot and then you follow it you hit it for a second shot that's it but that's all you need and you said you threaten to read the do you have the card you don't have the card I have it front of me I didn't just threaten it it's a promise Joel so what is the wording on the Venom card that explains the mini modes cuz that's literally the base of the game and people can't get they can't wrap their head around it it literally says battle modes complete colorcoded mini combos to collect life in the grid complete three lights and be at level 10 to qualify battles with Riot fagee Agony and Lasher shoot police station ramp to start battle in battle shoot red and blue lights quickly to defeat foe increase your level for more power in battles I like unless somebody literally does not know what a combo is or doesn't know what a grid is I don't know how else Stern can explain this any easier for people to understand and I know one of the reviews comprehend that somebody's like I just kept picking Spidey because I couldn't tell what what any differences were between the characters it's like the LCD screen says it on the LCD say very clearly when choose your host over on the right it says very clearly what what the advantages are of the character so their whole stick about selling this game on all the promos is choose your host changes the game you look at any promo you see it it even says it on the car choose a host each host has a special advantage in physical layout and Playfield changes like it tells you I get it I mean and and like we weren't we weren we weren't singling anybody out we weren't we weren't singling anybody out but I will say I do like at the end of K Hardy's video he admitted to not reading the rule card I agree I do I do appreciate that that he ad about that and I was just like bro no I couldn't believe when somebody told me that but that's what he's saying is he's like I am admitting that I put forth zero effort before stepping in front of that game to to try to learn how to play the game so why is it then okay let's just let's take a step back here maybe maybe Tom can help us because I'm sure he he deals with some unique people Tomas wise in his line of work yeah so what like how would somebody play Venom and not be able to tell that and again this isn't about anybody I'm just talking like in general cuz obviously there's multiple people that are having this issue for some reason how would somebody not be able to tell if they hit one shot that's a certain color that it moves to another part of the Playfield and how would they also not be able to look at the grid that's prominently on the middle of the Playfield and tell that it has the same colored lights like how are how are people not corresponding that that's the thing like I I think with this game it can't get any simpler than what it is so if you can't play this game like anybody should know how to color coordinate lights we've all played Simon right a freaking game where you just go yeah it's literally that that's what this game is and people people people have convinced themselves it's they have to know like all these different Combos and memorize it hell the combo stays lit for what 10 seconds it stays lit forever it gives you plenty of time it wants you the whole game is designed for you to get through it it's completely designed for you to win and it's like if you can't understand it from the very base it's I don't I don't know because compared to anything else Stern has put out I don't think it's that complicated All Things Considered because yes I will I will go ahead and say that some games I could see how it'd be extremely confusing or a casual to come up and I think even Venom would it would be the same thing for somebody that's a complete casual that doesn't know how to log in that just wants to throw in a couple of quarters B around the ball yeah but we're talking about people that consume pinball content that listen to podcasts that watch videos that are go to shows like I don't I don't know how more dumbed down that this can get for people to understand I really don't and I think people are just getting in their own way with it that they've they've convinced themselves that pinball is just so complicated that they don't get it and they they're not for whatever reason they're not taking a rule set right because like we talked about earlier we're talking about 31 pages right you don't have to know the whole thing you can segment it out all you have to know is how do I start a mode that's all you have to know well Tom's got the answer he's ready like that's that's all you have to know then how do you start a multiple you know you can't start a mode in in venom Travis but that's the thing it's and that's the whole point there's not even a mode there so it should be so much easier to understand because it tells you on the rule card you know where people where people should get confused which is perfectly fine is if you do start a mode in any other game you may not know how to play it properly you may not understand the sequences the scoring what doubles it yeah that that I get but we're talking about just simply just hitting basic shots at this point with Venom yeah sorry Tom go ahead you're Beauty I don't know what I was gonna say well Tom you played it you were actually the first of the three of us that played it and I and you happen to have your streaming I was like I don't know what I'm doing but scoring a lot of points this is but that's that's a question maybe that's a question though I mean you are very good at pinball and have played a lot of pinball but you're saying in that initial first game of playing pinball you scored a lot of points I'm assuming because you're following the blinky light but you said I had no idea what I was doing so whatever you were do it wasn't it wasn't obvious what you were doing knew some things but not did you follow the Blinky lights I did I did there you go you that's literally 80% of the game I hit a blue shot and so now I should hit the other flashing blue shot did you did you correlate those or you just saw more pretty sure I it's been a while since I first played it but there's video evidence yes we go back could we could well I will say I mean I think it is um you know theoretically you could knock out your mini modes your combos your three combos very quickly you could do it in six shots or if you do the skill shot you can do it even less but shots that's it if you're yeah if you're starting from scratch if you're starting for level one I could understand the confusion of okay I did that but I now I mean you can't do the battle yet CU you don't I can understand Theus at that point if it's your first game yeah but we're talking about people that played it like eight or 10 or a dozen times yeah they're still confused that part I don't understand I don't know what's going on I think when I played it at first the most confusing thing was like okay I I got I I got my locks you know and now like how do I how do I get another lock I want to lock the ball again you know for Mayhem multiple right right yeah but you know it wasn't drawn out to me like that I you know usually it's like you got to do this to get your lock you know yeah you hit two standup targets that say light lock you know exactly something like that yeah or you hit the lock shot you know but there was there was nothing lit the other thing is I think might be confusing to people is the whole Mayhem multiball where you have to hold the that button right away to cancel out the multiball from starting now I could see a lot of people walking up to a game like oh [ __ ] what the hell just happened how did he get six balls and I only got two you know that's thing but those but that all takes effort in learning the game right of course because that part takes effort in just reading the rule card cuz it's right there too nobody reads that rule card if a complete novice stepped up to the game they could hit two green lights and they'd be in a multiball that's all they're doing is two shot like they play Pinball or they're just anybody that walks up there anybody that walks up the street I mean they could see oh I see two green arrows mistakenly hit them both and they're in a multiball which is good in a way cuz they're pum a multiball but if you get somebody off the street they have no idea yeah they have no idea they will be so confused over the fast lock system they don't even know there's a ball in the shooter L they'll be confused on how pick a character you know oh they oh you'll see it they'll just flip around and then they'll look down there's no ball going they'll look up they'll look here they'll look back down they'll flip around some more they push the start button a few more times what what happens every single time what if they did this okay they have an LCD what if they had you know Joel or Travis on there and say hey this is you know I'm yada y person this is how you play Venom and then like they take you through the game on the freaking LCD and explain things a quick tutorial a quick tutorial on the game yeah I think Stern can do that technically now if they wanted to because Carl has all those little mini screens that goes up for him right yeah and play like really quick but I'm saying like an actual person like have Jack danger like hey this Jack danger I'm going to show you how to play this blah blah blah the problem is is How could somebody hear that one location you know what I mean like think headphone kit for a 100 bucks I think it would be cool if they would actually put the tutorials at the the uh double flip buttons or whatever instead of going through the menu and playing like choose a tutorial that way you can go through it maybe it could be voice narrated something like that I think that that is sorely needed especially for home users because yeah there is some things that that people don't understand but again that goes back to you run up to your bartender and you go turn that [ __ ] music down I got to hear that [ __ ] I gota learn how to play this pinball game this ping pong game Pinball R sets are just a weird thing though because yeah people want deeper games there's one section that wants deeper games and they should be deeper because of the price of them you don't want something super shallow who wants to pay 10 grand for something and you're done within 2 days then you got another group of people that they're not going to buy the game to in box but they want the game to be super easy to understand and they're just going to go play it on location like that's what they like some games are like that some games aren't but to me it's just like people just have to understand that when you play Pinball you don't necessarily have to know everything yeah you don't I mean no you definitely don't no well look at it this way like how many people are getting to a wizard mode during a game I mean everybody right not too many so people won't experience that and that's the whole reason why a rule set like Venom exists that's the whole reason why we put a rule set at the very beginning of a game for somebody to actually see so it's not like there's a bunch of people out there studying how to beat a wizard mode like it's just not realistic you know I I just I just think people people just need to enjoy pinball the way that they want to enjoy it and just stop psyching themselves out like it's just pinball just have fun like attach it to something else that's the big thing have fun yeah it's just weird they're like I can't have fun because I don't know what I'm doing and I've and I've I've interviewed a handful of pinball designers and the thing that always that I always ask him is like how do you like how do you do like I think it's an impossible task to write a code set that pleases the Carl D'Angelos of the world that can that want super crazy mult all that craziness and a complete novice that they can step up and have a good time like it is how do you how do you find that balance and I think Dwight himself Travis is gone Dwight himself hi Tom had freaking Beauty thank you so Dwight did Monsters Dwight did monsters and monsters was specifically it was supposed to be a a an easy to understand like rule set and they got they people laid into them for it so a Venom is the exact opposite of like let's try something that's very different than all other pinball games out there like you can't you can't please everybody right here's the here's the funny part about monsters though I guarantee you during that time frame if you ask somebody if somebody said oh this R set's super shallow and they're bagging on it and everything yeah if you ask them like okay well tell me what each mode does or tell me how to actually get through this game they wouldn't be able to tell you it's just a lot of people just get in their heads at something's a certain way now that's not to say that monsters isn't a shallow rule set compared to everything else yeah but that's the way it was meant to be so with this I I just think the other thing to consider is that if your skill set only takes you so far you're not going to be able to enjoy a rule set to its fullest sure just not you're going to be fighting against the pen the entire time yeah and that's I think a lot of people experience that they don't want to admit it that they're having that rough of a time so it just becomes well I just don't understand the rule set it's like no Larry maybe your live catches are just off you know Larry yeah but there's just there's nothing wrong with setting your game up in a home environment so that you can play the game easier too oh yeah no that's what people should do EX for you and me Travis but that's exactly yeah definitely never done that I've never made a game easier for myself well honestly shame I would tell people that are complete that are novices are new to pinball and we talked about this before there's nothing wrong with setting your game to five to 10 balls make the game something you it's your game make sure you're having fun with it I did it on Rush abely made I made Rush easier in the code because I think at some point they did a code change that made it harder and I remember making a comment and Ry was like Joel just set it to home mode or easy mode nobody's winning a world championship in their basement like you're not playing game n OFA against johanes just s the damn game to 10 balls set everything to easy and Joel out that's all you got to do so I will say I mean I had Godfather here and Godfather the code in that is so much more complex than hypthetically hypothe no I'm just saying it is I'm talking to Tom we're talking about something else but no yes Godfather yes if you want to talk about complex code yes let's talk something and I've experienced that with a lot of the jjp games where I think the games really are designed for people that are ready to really learn their home use environment ready to learn and people dogged on on Toy Story 4 because they thought it was too shallow but Toy Story 4 had a much more approachable code or rule set than Guns and Roses or Godfather and it's just you can't you can't have it all but I'm I will say after spending a lot of time on Venom I'm really enjoying Venom like I like it a lot and there's something about that XP system uh between 09 one and 0.92 uh they made grindle and null harder I had already beat null three times IID beat him it would take me it was under an hour and 30 minutes and it was like in the 40ish level range is all I needed to that's but people that listen to this or see my stream they know my skill set but I think I've only beaten all once Joel well Travis did it in two times in one game show um I didn't say that no you a video of it you post think I I think your skill set at pinball has improved dramatically over the past two years and you I wish and I'll say this so you know don't don't let this go to your head because I don't like saying nice [ __ ] about you ever but I think if people watch like what excites me about your pinball play is that people can actually watch it over a long period of time and see the Improvement and your proof of what happen if you play a game consistently and you ask the right questions y that's what happens now it doesn't mean like all of a sudden we're going to get you out there and take 88 at C or anything like that let me let me find that Abe Clips uh YouTube that's the best video no it there is there is genuine truth to that though of like every every game that I stream or borrow from Zach it's there there is improve like things improve over time and normally my plan with streaming a game is first stream I just want to do it on my own I want to see how much of the game I can disc like find on my own and I want to try to find the shots like you guys have the ability to find the shots on almost any pin within like four flips of a flipper I don't know how you do it but I can't find shots that fast so called having no life Joel ah got right so but then stream two I am fortunate yes that to have a designer like an Eric Minor or Dwight Sullivan to be on there and explain the game you know I've played the game enough now that I actually feel like I have good questions on can you clarify this can you explain that that is super helpful and I'm glad that I am in a position where I can have those conversations and share those conversations to hopefully educate anybody watching me I love it even more that Travis had to watch that video of me streaming to learn how to play game God bless Dwight Sullivan for just sting through that and trying to coach you through bricking all those posts no I loved it God's work over there at Stern um I I won't forget yeah there was one point where I was I went to ask a question he goes hey Joel just just focus for a second try to beat grle like you wanted me to stop talking just to try to anyways I love you know you're talking a lot when Dwight's like yeah Dwight is telling BR settle down buddy bro take a breath right yeah yeah so it was great it was great and I'm glad I could have that and I know Carrie called me out on that on the video you know it's not like all of us can have the the designer of the game coach us through and I get that I understand but there's a YouTube video out there there's plenty of information out there and you can either take that information and do what you want with it or you don't do it at all and then you just live with the repercussions of that or the consequences or just the reality that you create around you I mean it's like anything else we do anything else in life we don't put any effort towards learning it we just want to know it yeah how's that going to work like it's it's like my kids whenever they come back home and they're just like I don't understand this in class all right Carter have you read your textbook no dad I haven't H like okay Well's start you maybe you want yeah let's start there and then we can go but that you know that's cool if you don't want to read then don't read just play the game and then I guarantee after 15 20 games you're going to start figuring out what's going on yeah like that's pinball that's what you do the the only time that that's really frustrating though is if the layout of the game is super hard because then you're playing the game 15 20 times you feel like you barely did anything because you just keep training I don't think Venom is that case Venom the layout is relatively forgiving and the ball yeah yeah so it's wants the ball to go to your flipper you should be able to discover this game easier than others but I just we one of the questions we're going to address later on is what are our favorite games and I think that's that's going to tell a lot about us because that's that's one thing I love about pinball is there are there's such a variety of games out there that it's some people are very attracted to very easy to understand rule sets and they may be you know that's where a game like a Medieval Madness or something that really screams to them oh my gosh now I see why Dwight said what he said I can't hold that pose anymore we should do that right now we go right into it hell yeah I mean I don't see it on the production notes or anything Ain number four in my head but it wasn't number two uh your mom okay wowd got him got him got him and my mom likes you too I knew her judge a character of [ __ ] man how is it taking nice that Jo boy how was it taking Tris is leaving 43 episodes for the first your M joke I don't I don't know that so long oh boy all right damn it walked right into that [ __ ] let's just edit that part out yeah yeah I'll let it got a reputation upold get on Tom we got to go with top five games we ever heard from you okay yes so the the preface here is K conis I actually had this idea believe it or not I'm giving myself a little credit oh here we go humble brags again my God this was my um I I'm you guys we do this like 20 p IO no I don't we or something yeah I think we did I don't think we did maybe it's top three rule set I think it was it was so how are we going to do this are we doing from 5 to one like how are we doing this Tom I think we need like I mean VH1 [ __ ] what I I like that call back I know I think a lot of people my guesses aren't going to be crazy but you guys have played so much pinball that I'm CU like I I've always been genly curious what you consider your top five favorite games so I was like I'm gonna ask these guys but I realized what if we got more people to do this all at once so I reached out to conis because Colin is really nice guy and he's really doing a great job with reaching out to Media creators so he pushed it out to everybody I love it loser kids already done it I've already listened to um uh slap saave has done theirs um there's more silver ball Chronicles like there there are people doing this so I'm excited to see the compiled answers so yes the question is what are your top five favorite pinball machines I don't really care what order we go in do you guys oh slam tilt not slap safe slam tilt I was gonna say it's slap safe still around I ABS care what order we go in okay Travis what order do you want to go in I don't know from first Toth you want start start with honorable mentions well it doesn't make any sense to say our number one because then what you just start from the top and you're done right we got to go five and doubt five okay I'll tell you five is the hard why don't we start with five and then each of us say just copy them how' they do so five they didn't I don't feel like they actually did their top five I think they did five but they kind of split it up between designers and then that's how silver ball Chronicles did it they've they've had stories about five designers so they did their favorite pen of five designers and then slam tilt said their five least favorite pinball machines so I actually haven't heard anybody do an authentic top five pinball Machin is nobody idea PR okay so we'll start at number five and we're gonna go number five per perfect Tom what is your fifth top favorite pitball machine number three will shock you uh Harlem Globe TRS oh I bet you weren't expected was not expecting that my my prediction with this was number one Rush Le number two Rush premium number three Rush Pro number four Rush new in box number five Rush on location that was my top five for Tom all right so here's my number five you ready yeah Harlem globeo number five okay yes look I'll take a picture of it right now I believe you to prove you no I'm not sending you Joel only talk to Tom okay Tom I don't care what Travis likes it why do you like it yes uh I just I like older belly games but that one I really enjoy because it has the three flippers and it has the inline drops for your multiplier and then it lights the drop targets like your spinner so like you just have like a spinner drop Target Fest get your bonus up uh it's just a it's just a very fun game to me so do you own it I do okay he has one of the nicest Globe Trotters in the entire world yep I uh it is super nice I uh when I bought it the gentleman I bought it from uh had a uh gave me a Playfield with it to from CPR so I uh I took it home and I I restored it nice Travis why it why do you like the I love it because just it's a different layout with the split flipper I love the Spinners on it just the sounds too like it reminds me a lot my Early Childhood playing Harlem Globe Trotters on the uh Nintendo and then seeing the commercials or the newspaper clippings for that they're coming to town cuz back then we didn't quite have the internet in the early 90s so that's what you had to rely on but yeah I mean that's the stuff I like and plus the color scheme of it too I think it looks pretty cool nice Joel what's your number five uh Harlem Globe no um my number five this was played one before or you say you're number five no I don't think if I have I've maybe played one game on it okay it was probably at Wizard World or it may have been at one of the shows could have been okay that makes sense I would like to play more the idea of a scissor flipper like I like that we'll find one at Expo we'll just scissor me timbers all night long J can't wait all right uh this was the hardest one for me um genuinely and um I think my number five is actually I'm going to sound like a shill but it's stranger things premium or Le stranger things premium or Le that makes sense yes that is that is my number five has nothing to do I sell right now at all St Distributors you can buy your game I there is to me I want pinball to feel unique and I mean you're were saying Travis you really like the unique layout like this you know of of har Globe trouts like that stands out and I think what is going on with the projection mapping the UV like kit just the overall immersive experience that you get with stranger things and then on top of that I do like the theme I like the Cleveland mod that adds a bunch of sound to it and then watching my friends and family play that game the the amount of Joy they had just trying to bash that demogorgan in the face is awesome like it's just a super fun game and if you can go premium or Le it really is unlike any other pinball machine out there so what I would be curious is if projection mapping is part of another game down the road whether or not like I would prefer that maybe that would be a theme I'd like more I don't know but for right now there is no other game like like like a stranger things premium REI it's just it's such a unique thing that this was my hardest one I got a lot of honorable mentions that we're all fighting for that fifth spot but that's my number five stranger things premium what's your two honorable mentions um how how much did you get paid for that Joel zero uh Metallica Metallica was one of them Metallica is a game I've had it I loved it um I love all the X in it I really enjoyed Metallica a lot I love the theme that was an honorable mention uh turtles is obviously an honorable mention I love Turtles but the challenge that I constantly have with turtles is is it because it's the theme it was my dream theme and that that I I feel like it's hard for me to have a true um unbiased opinion of the game because of how much I love the theme and then Hobbit believe it or not was my fifth if Hobbit shot better if Hobbit shot better that game would be beloved I love the code in that is so good in the sound and the light show and they got so many assets if it just shot a little better that game would be beloved in my opinion wasn't enough to overcome the layout all that wasn't enough to overcome the layout for you it wasn't the one thing that the one the one turnoff from Hobbit is when I had it none of my friends and family played it cuz they couldn't understand it they couldn't understand it it was too much and wa you're you're judging the game bad for your own top five because your friends and family don't play it it takes it is a factor it is a fact going on right now no it's a factor because my wife doesn't play any of my games well but there's nothing like Hobbit really it's we talked just you know few minutes ago jjp games really are hard to dive into too and that that was something that they're like I don't know what's going on but everything's going on all at the same time and but I really enjoyed Hobbit um well Joel don't let other people get you down you like what you like Joel I I was gonna say I I was honestly uh earlier on I was really affected by like what my friends and other people said about games and now I'm like f you I just like what I like and if you don't like it effing bad yeah that's why Travis sold Toy Story and his kids hate him for it so it's fine oh that's the way pinball should be you know like what you like even if even if you're screaming at your phone or at your headphones listening to us like like what you like don't you know you don't have to like something just because we like it I get it unless Tom likes it then you guys better like it then well what are what are both of your number four clearly clearly you're in sync here this weird make make Travis to his for first all right my number four is jumping jack 1973 that is definitely not my my fourth what is this game you don't even know it do you no I don't want people to hear clicking of a keyboard Jo's like they made pinball machines back in the pinball why why is this game any good I didn't say it's good said it's my number four why why is it why is it make your top five list because it has such a weird layout that is so simplistic that obviously somebody could come up with it within like a day but it has four flippers they're just like wild it has the two pops close so you always have chaos down below and then you have just a line of drop targets and you know what Joel sometimes I just want to take out my nightly rage on a bunch of drop Targets in front of me with soggy ass flippers that's what I want to do that's my idea fun hey like what you what you just said like just like what you like now you see why I did that speech nobody can judge so you own this you own this game hell yeah I own it it's a fun machine I would never sell it so you got you have to do a skill shot into one of the saucers up above if you do the proper skill shot then you make your targets worth a whole lot more so it's just yeah it to me it's a fun machine I enjoy EMS I don't need a complicated rule set to have fun do your do your twins play this or Toy Story 4 more just well obviously this cuz Toy Story 4 hit the bricks oh okay hey you this is your list this is your list you know number four jumping you be you yep Tom Tom is your number four jumping jack it is not an em I have no EMS on my list otherwise I would have put high card on it or like doodle bug or something jump sky freef fall I don't know okay I wonder why is everybody looking at me you think Joel supposed to be tell Joel ever played an em yes I've played an em Joel just now discovered what an em was just like five minutes ago oh boy Joel okay can you name three em all the ones he just did I knew doodle this Grand PR before we've mentioned or R okay Grand Prix Grand prixes that uh what is it Cent grade okay Center Grade 37 I don't know I people love they or 38 Joel 38 why not let's go with that I just said and I knew Doodle Bug because I remember that's like got a lot of love I already said that though I know but I actually knew that one I actually knew that one oh okay Bronco bronos one okay yeah how' you know that I own a Bronco too I don't care I don't we would have we would have given you high props if you would have said volley but you did not volley I do know volley yeah I watched that at uh Expo down at um for finals that was awesome [ __ ] kidding me right now what Vol was the was the was the final game of Texas pinball is over it's awesome that is true Joel but is it behind him no Joel what $5 volley he he doesn't know he doesn't worldwide I know it now I'm telling you I'm going knows it I'm going from my personal experience of sitting in the room watching the final game of Texas pinball Expo on pinball shelter my God number four number four Tom all right here we go St man oh yeah we used to be my favorite but it's now fallen to Fourth Dro down to Fourth how long ago was it your fav because everything just you know there you asked me next week there could be five different games okay why do you like Spider-Man uh I just I like the layout I love the flow of it um I like playing multiball over and over again I like the Simplicity of it I I just really like it I just like I I like that Steve Ritchie flow kind of stuff that's a solid pick that's a game I wish I had I want to get one of those in the future it is a it is a very fun game I enjoyed streaming it my brother enjoyed streaming it which version though do you guys like version or see I like I like the original but I mean I like the comic too but I like I like the original better Toby mire fan that's kind of yeah I went to liking the comic book but now that Toby Maguire's officially MCU I'm back on board with the original back on board all right I'm sure he cares um my number four is Medieval Madness Medieval Madness is the only game on my list I haven't owned and I know the two of you guys Tom has it's gone and I know Travis doesn't care it's not a tournament it's not beloved in the tournament world I mean it it is for local events and stuff like that it just it's just two samies for me but it's a you know I think it's a cool machine overall cool theme cool toys exactly that game it's a game that I've had fun every time I've played it and it's also the game that my friends and family have had the most fun that's the one they remember that's the one they ask about that's the one they want me to own that is I think there's a reason it's in the pinside top five like we need to get your wife here and she can do the rest of your list uh the the castle toy is probably one of the coolest toys in pinball yeah pretty cool yeah I like the lock mechanism with it more than anything like it's cool that they have a lock Mech along with the castle like that part's cool we don't see that too often anymore to where it's just one Mech all together like that yes you know it just it doesn't often I mean it still happens kind of but yeah so I'm not going for the humble brag but I did interview Brian Eddy earlier this week and we did we talked about knew this mediev we talked about Medieval Madness and what I what I realized how great the castle is is because initially the door is up and you hit it and then it comes down and then you're bashing a gate and then the gate goes up and then now I mean it's like it's a bash toy that is that has different states and it's obvious you know what you're doing there's you don't have to tell anybody what to do in mediable Madness like you just you see Castle you hit it with the ball and then you notice the castle moved so you want to do it more and if you mistakenly hit it to the left of the bridge or the gate now you've locked the ball oh apparently that's what I have to do for multiball now on top of that there's some really cool ramps it's just fun like I and then the troll like nobody sees that coming boom trolls pop up oh what am I going to do with those I'm going to bash those like it's just I really enjoy it I reallyy did you talk about Shadow we did did we did it's a good you should give it a listen give a little listen there Tom you watch my streams I'll watch yours my streams are a little shorter than yours just a tiny bit tiny bit I watch your finals you could at least watch $ five volley oh I get okay okay I got it I get jeez that was my four um I'll go ahead and do three cuz I haven't gone first yet three this isn't going to this is no shocker it's it's Cactus Canyon Cactus Canyon I just bought it I really really love that game um it's another game where it's just easy to understand it's a lot of fun it's a game I've beaten but yet I'm still drawn to it and looking forward to playing it more quick side tangent Josh did say on Josh Sharpe he did say on pinside that they are working they're still working on the Lyman code and if he had to make a guess he's hoping the Lyman code code would be done by summer of next year so we got time we got time but it is interesting owning a game so will the games be up by Yeah well yeah all the Lees but it's it's interesting owning a game knowing that there's there's a chance that there's going to be a huge code change coming down the road in the the say why my pul fiction Al is gonna be there he did not answer that no he didn't he didn't say that but I would I genuinely love the code the way it is and it's just that game is it's beautiful it's a lot of fun and that's a game that was not on my radar whatsoever until I actually borrowed it and played it and now I own it so that is my number three I know for you two that game is way too easy and probably pretty boring but I am a fan hey it has pistols in it good times it's got one of the best Toppers in like all of pinball the Topper's awesome oh topper is pretty cool yeah yeah I can tell your both does it do I don't know what it does does it do I've seen when you hit when you do any of the quick draw when you do when you hit Bart or any of the Quick Draw targets that pop up he actually knocks back so you hear this like knocking sound so it's actually like a you audible and physical interaction when you're shooting the guys which is pretty cool and then his arms move based on draw and whatnot it's it's actually really pretty neat and there's a whole mode there's a whole topper mode but that's my number three uh let's go Travis what's your number three I will say my number three currently is Godzilla Stern Godzilla I can't do a cool Godzilla no oh there what was that was that a cat all right uh Godzilla yeah decent game um y pretty decent game why is it your number three um why did it beat out fre jumping jack so so it's my number three because my number one is a very sentimental pick and my number two I can't say what it is yet but then you'll understand why it's my number two but Godzilla used to be my number two and then it got switched around but it's no it's an awesome game it's fun I enjoy the theme itself because I grew up on Godzilla hell I used to have freaking slummer parties with all my friends watching Godzilla movies we'd have like marathons of just watching it so I was totally obsessed with it and then when they redid it for the US version in 1998 tottally broke my heart when I went to go watch it because I was like what is this piece of [ __ ] you know so I was pretty upset about that so seeing the campy Godzilla in a Stern pen or in in modern pen yeah it's awesome and the fact that it's done so well with the layout on the rule set even better I mean it's it's a type of pen it just won't leave my collection I mean I've thought about it just in case if I want to move down to a pro I've thought about it but I was like I can't yeah that building's too cool everything on it is too cool the mechs and everything you know what's also pretty cool about Godzilla is we're in it you know true you're gonna sell yeah that comfy that comfy is in Godzilla lyer egg yep yep flipper code TDP triple dream podcast check it out yeah that's a good choice just don't look at Joel just look at Tom's the front and center camera just all right Tom uh number three I went with another Steve Ritchie game Star Trek Star Trek hey I guessed it uh what do you own which Star Trek do you own I have the Ali version o with the lasers on the side of the cabinet it it's pretty sweet sweet um that warp ramp huh oh yeah warp ramp the Vengeance the 18 different modes in it it's all good yeah that's a very beloved game I get it it's it's it's and it's also that that is a game that has depth but it also is very accessible and approachable to anybody and the fact that vgin is right there in the middle you really don't have to tell anybody what to do they're going to have a good time that's maybe that's maybe that is a game a good game of like it appeases all skill ranges or skill levels so good good good Star Trek is a great game good choice Tom thank you so that was number three uh R my number three uh who went first uh we'll go Travis you went first I did TR we've been rotating on who does the first okay it's a good rotation okay so my number two now is officially part three three my number three his three was Godzilla yeah and your three was Star Trek oh yeah and Joel's three was Cactus Canyon mhhh Travis is number two Jurassic Jurassic car yep Jurassic okay so you're saying Jurassic Park in Godzilla where you're they were kind of flip flopping back and forth no I legit I had Jurassic Park out of my top five before the new code update yeah I mean it was still way up there but just the only thing that I kind of like step back from is just whenever you got into control room it was just very much you wanted to pick just one particular mode that's it cuz I mean especially in tournaments and stuff like that because it's the only mode that made sense but now that everything's been balanced out it's been switched around just a little bit just enough to make you want to play every single mode nice and I have the Jurassic Park 30th anniversary in my basement now and I find myself oh yeah total humble BR you I've got one I've got but but it playing the control rooms it's I want to play all of them you know I don't think of oh I just need to play this because I need to get this score or something like that I find myself just playing through Jurassic Park because it's just fun to play through without even thinking of this score now you can do stuff that's score based but trying to get the visitor center that's pretty cool trying to get through all the T-Rex events that's pretty cool trying to get through all the control all the control room stuff that's pretty cool trying to do the Raptor with the the Raptor gate that comes up like all that to me is just a lot of fun and you get so many choices to do stuff now that they got the combos wrapped in with the DNA combos the trifecta getting fossils I mean there's just so much to do in that game and the layout to me it's just it's so unique because that oot is just a mother effer like I have such a hard time with it or no the the a sorry the a the the O is fine the right but that one on the right orbit that's the one that I have the most difficult time with out of any any shot on any game ever in pinball that's the one I have the most difficult time with so me just like yesterday I did and I got all my badges in five days did it yep yeah I still have to get the top one which is play it for five days but I got all the other ones all right what about you Joel you get you get your badge nope did not get any of those badges I got my uh two his two-year uh internet or Insider connected badge got that you know you got what if you played if you played uh an Insider connected game on the 6th you got a badge that's that celebrates two years of Center connected I think that was the last badge I got it just happened to how do how do you even look up what badges you have it's under your profile I have a profile badges I have a profile I mean you should just look up tripod Tom you'll see it it's there that's a good point that's a very good pick uh Jurassic Park I I know I streamed it I borrowed it it kicked my butt it's a it's a it's a challenging layout or I found it to be challenging wow look at all look at that look at all those badges wow but that game I get it I totally that's one of those games where I totally understand why it has the love that it has I get I totally get it but all right Tom what's your number two my number two is Iron Maiden whoa that I did not I was not expecting that no nobody was I was not expecting that you haven't had Iron Maiden that long I've had it since it came out yeah only it's only been five years Tom no didn't you I thought you bought that isn't that the game you bought with your uh with your rewards that was you're getting Tom confused somebody else that no I'm sorry that was uh Jurassic Park that's who you bought with your rewards got it got it got it got it I yeah well okay Iron Maiden so why why why IR I'm pretty sure I know you're number one it's a pro I just like all the different modes and multiballs and shot shot layout I love the shot through the pop bumpers and up the ramp and uh I love the shot in the back to start the mode and get your soul Shard I don't know I just so Keith should have just stopped there one and done no no but I out of his four games right now that's one of my favorites so it is really good I also have mine set up really effing hard and uh it's it's fun just to play it and try to get wrecked yeah like do really well on it for it being set up so hard nice that's a good pick that's a solid pick um apparently not no I just wasn't expecting it you you buy so many band pins that I was EXP your list I'm pretty sure I know you're number one but I was expecting that's I'm pretty sure you're number one and I was expecting another one though the one that's right behind him I thought he was going to say that one next Fighters yeah I thought for sure he was going to say that one next no Tom's just full of surprises keep us on our toes thanks for being thanks for providing that for us Tom keep us keep us on our toes um my number two is TNA TNA is my number too I've said it before if I was to get down to two pens that would be one of the two um I just love everything about it love the music love the light show the Simplicity of it co-op mode I just love it love everything about TNA um I did actually get a message from somebody somebody on Facebook that said they just recently bought a TNA from watching my Stream So if my my enjoyment of TNA was carried through the camera enough to convince somebody to buy the game I did it I did I my commission on that is zero but I will I I freaking love that game I love TNA um I know Tom you owned it for a while it's gone I think it's I think it's a great game I just have my time with it and yeah I was ready to move on and to me there's something I know it's not I know you guys are giving me a hard time for em or even some more simple games but I for whatever reason I feel like TNA scratches the itch of having a more single level simple game in my collection even though it's a modern game so big fan I will I will say uh honorable mention for me because you did that yeah I was I was thinking about putting pul fiction on my list but since it's not really out so much that was fair yeah which is because for the same reasons you're saying like it's kind of a older game with a modern take a throwback yeah yeah yeah but yet I mean Beatles is that and Bon 60th is that yeah but it's I get it and I like Bon 60th just didn't make the top five I get it all right final games um I think we should guess them I well [ __ ] Tom I think yours everybody knows is Rush yeah am I right okay you're right so what is it about Rush that you love Thomas first of all it's after the greatest [ __ ] rock band ever made n said n said number one I mean they didn't even have to put anything in the game but the music so okay but they did they put way more in the game than that yeah there is there is a ton to rush and that's one of the reasons I love it the the the the code and the layout I think is great you know I I'll put it against anybody else's games I I know a lot of people hate it but I don't care it's your list it's your list it's my list go after yourself you don't like it too [ __ ] bad all right um just kidding just kidding Tom you want to guess Travis's number one it's sentimental oh man I don't it's not jumping jack he already said it I know he sold his Iron Maiden so it can't be that his rap rap version of Iron Maiden you you still have Star Wars I don't I sold that too yeah so it's not that sold Avengers D I did but I'm getting Avengers Pro oh okay because Avengers was I thought might have made your list but it didn't maybe maybe not I don't know I don't know I can tell you my honorable mentions okay so Avengers Iron Maiden rtier and do I want no I don't think that one's worth it those three those are my honorable mentions parag Paragon was on my honorable mention paragon's fun too Metallica and Iron Man I think those are those are a lot of fun as well well I know the answer the answer is Walking Dead Walking Dead assist it is Walking Dead that almost made my list as well definitely Walking Dead so Walking Dead was the very first pen I ever got my kids and my wife got it for me for Father's Day like way back and I think it was 20 either 2016 or 2017 I think it was 2016 so that was literally my first pinball machine after asking for an ACDC for like 5 years and I finally got this I just knew of the comic books right because I've read them and I knew of the show I watch the show and so Monica was like Hey look at this it matches up with what you like do you want to get it so I was like yeah cool so yeah I do yeah that's what we ended up getting I had no idea about the rules the design I had no idea that this game was supposed to be hard I was just playing it and I was like oh I'm getting over 100 million this is cool what do I do now you know I was very much like I said screw it didn't read the rule card didn't do anything you just figured it out just figured it out I know I know shocker but no it was yeah so it's just as sentimental I mean I do enjoy the game I love the rule set to it you know the layout to me it's it's fun to hit it's a difficult shooter overall but there's plenty of things to hit at but yeah I would say if my kids and my wife didn't buy it for me and it wasn't my first pen it would probably be maybe number three number four so it's still high up there regardless but yeah that's the reason why it's number one that pin will never leave I'll keep it as long as I'm alive and not get rid of it try to keep it running for years and years until Spice Girls comes out then you're it's going G yo yeah you the wannabe Le I'm all in I cannot wait yeah no that's a great choice that's a game I would love to borrow one to stream it because I I just haven't put enough time on Walking Dead to feel like I've I I want to love it as much as everybody else does because the time I've spent on it it just kicks my butt but I I I want to get deeper into that that code set because there's a lot of people that think it's lyman's best and I want to see that I want to experience that um any gues any guesses on my number one any guesses at all was thinking Godzilla oh great guess yep that would be it that was my guess too y i i still if I was to go down to two pins it would be Godzilla and TNA those are the two that I I just think I don't know I think Godzilla's I love the way it shoots I love watching other people play it um I don't get the burnout that you guys get with tournament you know play I Know Travis you had said or sorry Tom you had said that um you that's one of those games that that's almost used too much in a tournament um I don't I don't have that so just for at home play it's an absolute blast um and it's it's funny to me how I can borrow a lot of newer games stream the heck out of them and then I can step over to Godzilla and within 30 seconds of playing that game it's like ah I forgot why I love this game like I forgot and it's just it shoots so well and it's so much fun to shoot camp is all the things that we all described earlier so that is my number one it's such an awesome game though I mean overall when you really look at it compared to anything else that's around it's just yeah it's a lot of fun I mean it's hilarious we had somebody in our showroom a couple of months ago and I told you guys about this that he was walking through looking at all the pins and he stopped at Godzilla and is a Godzilla premium and he pointed at it he's like why does this one look different than all the other ones I'm like that's the thing it draws you in you see it and you're just kind of like okay this is something different you know because everything and we talked about this Joel when it first came out within the first week we were talking about how it was different because everything feels like it's wide open in the middle yet there's still shots to hit at that's close to the flippers with that pop bumper with the merer target with the spinner and the scoop right there and the other spinner I mean it's just it's Unique in that way that there's nothing really just smack dab right in front of you but you got to spray shots yeah find it and just yeah it creates unique Combos and everything it's so well done and it's also one of the games that I I'm modding the heck out of like and it's not they're all T tasteful but I love how popular this game is because you have I thought you were G to say tacky they're all tacky they're all a gotti tacky no it's type mods to get you know there's some amazing mod makers out there Diddy mods stumbler being two of them that are like really putting in and putting putting in work and Alexandre Mak making these incredible mods so to have additional light shows and choreography and other stuff that's added into this game and making these sculpts even better is I don't know I love that game it's my number one yeah it would probably be it would be quite a battle what's your GC on it Joel I don't know it's less than a billion it's right behind you I haven't broken a billi like covering it right now come on Joel I don't know is I got to flip through all of them give me give me a second here look Joel's like the champion of everything there yeah it's pin except for see what he got uh 864 you are so close I know I I'll get are we gonna get you past a billion I just need to I I need to focus I need to focus you have extra balls Angel yeah I have all stock it's all stock okay I don't really change the only game I've genuinely changed stranger things when I borrowed it I moved the the the outlane post are all the way up I moved into the middle because that's where Brian Eddy said he wanted them shipped at they weren't shipped that way so I did it and then rush I moved the code back to an the easier setting because that's what it was originally those are the only two games I've I've tweaked are you talking about where the records carry over I don't remember it was something I feel like it was less I don't remember I don't remember what it was but it still didn't help me enough to get to some of the stuff I wanted to get to in the game but all right so that was our top five so real quick refresh um my five in order were Godzilla TNA cactus medieval madish stranger things premium Tom your five in order uh from first to five or five to first okay so Rush Iron Maiden Stern Star Trek Spider-Man and Harlem Globe trouts perfect and Travis I was walking dead Jurassic Park Godzilla jumping jack and Harlem Globe to Jumping Jack what I can't wait is conis I hope Colin like compiles all of these answers and does some sort of graph or something to like show the popularity of certain pins and the fact that Jumping Jack has to be a data point be on there is hilarious yeah but all right well that was 1973 yep that was definitely fun um the last question that Colin wanted was what is something that you currently love about pinball what is something that you currently love about pinball um Tom what is your the people the people um when I threw I threw that out earlier today before I I warned everybody yeah but no the people people's a great answer and I'll I'll piggyback right on it that's the same the same as mine I mean the I've met I've met so many cool people in Pinball it's it's amazing yeah I trying for the specific question but that is I really dove into pinball at the beginning of coid as an Outlook as an outlet to like connect and play and there's something about this game being such a tangible Hands-On game you want to play it with other people and sure I understand video games it's a little easier to play certain video games with people across the nation at any time but there's I don't know I just feel like it's such more personal connection when you're playing there side by side playing the same thing and it's you versus the game um and then through streaming in this podcast you know you guys listeners Please Please be aware how appreciative we are of Facebook messages and emails and coming up to us at shows or tournaments and just saying hi and it's it's awesome it's an awesome way to meet and connect with people um to kind of share this hobby so I'm with you Tom I can't wait for Travis to just say some ridiculously selfish answer but you know our answer is people we like people so the question is what's our favorite thing about pinball or what we currently love about pinball oh what do I currently love about pinball well I love that it a paycheck that's oh it's paycheck my mortgage that's pretty awesome right what do you currently love about Pall I mean if we're being okay well that's that no we're good we could stop there I would say besides getting paid for it which is pretty awesome it it has its has its cool parts has its down Parts like any other job I would say I guess my most favorite thing about pinball right now is seeing my kids discover pinball a little bit more and just watching them play watching them figure it out and it's it's hilarious to me because none of them ask me anything about the pins they don't ask for advice they don't do anything Monica doesn't even do that none of my family does at all Joel you asked me for advice more than my own kids and my my wife appar I don't think anybody asks I think we just get it you know yeah pretty much pretty much but yeah but I just yeah I enjoy watching them play and to me it's interesting seeing them kind of latch on to something that I'm very much involved with so that's pretty cool to share a hobby with friends and family just like you would say yeah yeah my my friends and family haven't really like well my brother has my brother now streams with me like consistently and he I think he actually enjoys it like that's really cool he's the most entertaining one on there too Jared yeah yeah and Tom I know you and Neil traveled the world you know and and we'll continue to do that so it's yeah if obviously I think that's that's the hope for everybody that's into pinball is they can get their family into it as well or their friends you know to to kind of do this journey with us but um even if you can't you know to be able to go to a a bar or or a tournament or somewhere and just just show you know and just kind of share this this passion and hobby with others um I mean people people are cool too that that's part of it too you guys you guys just already answered that well I mean if anybody wants to pay my mortgage for me as well you can become number one on that list as well but but no I I think that that's the cool part too is doing this podcast and doing online content and being a part of different tournament streams and all that it's allowed me to meet a lot of unique personalities and a lot of unique people from across the world that otherwise I would have never even known existed never would have got to met and to me it's actually it's a blessing to get to meet different personalities and get to talk to people from different walks of life you know and that's to me that's what makes life a lot of fun living and yeah pinball allows me to do that so I'm very thankful for that as well it's crazy to me that you traveled across the pond all the way over to Europe to compete in it's a big pond big pond big pond big pond you traveled all the way over there to compete in in um what is it Nationals not National it's like yeah I travel to Europe to compete in National Nationals yes worlds worlds wow wow wow wow got it but you travel all the way over there to compete in Worlds and you happen to play a a young adult that listens to our podcast from New Zealand oh yeah Mr Dipper yeah yeah like complete other side of the world my ass somehow listens to our podcast and then beats you head-to-head on pitball I mean that's crazy destroyed me that all that can happen yeah oh yeah no it's it's fun it's I mean that was the cool part even going to the UK open there was several people over there that told me that they listen to the podcast and they watch Tom streams and everything and you know I mean that's really cool and plus the most fun part of it is apparently a lot of people in Robert Englunds hate Joel's guts and I love it it's I might as well just move there is awesome very much Pro Tom Pro Travis so yeah good crowd over there everybody's Pro Tom but all right well that was thank you uh Colin I that was fun but all right so the last two things on our event are basically What's happen happening in the next two weeks so first we'll focus on you guys there's a lot of tournament a lot of tournament coming up in the next two weeks Super Series being won that's I think both of you guys are like heading out tomorrow for that that starts that's Wednesday to Sunday Super Series that's at District 82 go for it say your say your say your thoughts or peace thought you I thought you were telling us to go for it like you're going to win it all yeah let's [ __ ] go yeah Let's Get Hype us a p like yes coach Jo I would love to see uh Travis vers Tom in the finals and uh I know who I'm rooting for that's for sure yeah it would be nice if we like didn't play each other until the finals for a change I know hey we haven't played against each other in a long time though we've been able to avoid each other for a while so is there anything um I mean is there anything special like super Series this a big deal this a big deal there's a lot of people traveling to this it's it's uh multiple tournaments over multiple days I mean is this essentially the series this is the tournament that you guys look forward to like all year this is the Super Series Joel or one of them super and it's a series okay I don't know who are the favorites to win right now do you think Travis besides me and you I mean obious reason after us it's just yeah I feel I actually I feel bad for everybody that's coming there to play against us to be honest with you I mean i' been good on them for trying but no I would say um gosh it's it's tough I think Dalton he's the young one that's going to be there he's going to be tough y he's going to be tough and of course Nate Grant's been playing phenomenal and District 82 is Classics heavy so you're going to have some people there that can play the hell out of Classics I mean I all Andy Rosa Derek fugatti yep so there's going to be a lot lot of tough players I mean we're missing a lot there's I think there's something like 25 or 30 top 100 players that are going to be there har Wing who women's world champion is going to be there yeah and then then there's the locals like Cassidy and you know thank God Joel's not GNA be there you didn't say like is eer gonna be there Walt woodal wood he so noer he's showing Mercy on all of us yeah he's taking a break there's a so there's another tournament going on at the same time over in New York so it kind of split everybody they're doing the pro circuit over there so it has a couple of the younger players going that way and I am perfectly fine with that I mean all the young players go to New York where's RA have fun riday is going to New York go to New York I'm perfectly fine with that all the good players just go to New York you guys go there let us in our senior division have our time to New York yes please are they going to turn the lights on to for your older eyes you know to be able to oh yeah if there's money on the line lights are on well cool no and uh Fox there's a lot of good players there they're going to be there so oh yeah well I think like what Derek price is going to be there who's been a California state champion um who else is going to be there of course what David Deluga I thought I saw him on the list and he's an excellent player up there lnc always a killer is Carl going Carl was but Carl had to drop well you guys have a chance now Brian Brian O'Neal Trent it'll be fun there's just a lie you could go down you could go down the list and somebody could catch fire like they could catch fire and win Andre massen COV I think just go down the whole list what I mean it's because the stern pro circuit Championship is the following week so you got some players that are going to both nice woo yeah Carlos is going to be there too Ian uh Ian's going to be there cool so that'll be fun that'll be streamed on uh Fox Cities uh are you starting that Wednesday uh I'm gonna start Wednesday I'm not going to do tilt and Tuesdays because it's just okay it's too brutal for me going to work the next day and so we got streaming for Fox City's Wednesday Thursday Thursday Friday Friday Saturday Saturday Sunday 5 days in a row five days of competitive quality pinball streaming make sure to you know get your wallets out to everybody drop some subs takes a year my life every time I do it Tom no that's going to be awesome that'll be awesome to watch um and then the week after that is freaking Expo is Expo and I'll be streaming that tournament too hopefully yeah so Tom or Travis I know he said he's traveling whatever Tuesday he's there Wednesday Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday drives home home Monday and then Tuesday you're turning around to head up to stern pro circuit I'm GNA go Wednesday morning so yeah so Chicago's only about four hours away and they're doing the stern pro circuit Championship which is Wednesday completely different than last year yeah it's it's like top 302 or 38 I forget how many people there's bracket relased yeah yeah and you got a few buys yeah you had a few Head to Head best of five and I think they're going to show that tournament on Stern's YouTube channel don't you hate head tohe head they're gonna do I do I absolutely hate it oh bummer dude I know that's what I said but I have to go cuz it's it's an automatic $600 so I'm just going to drive collect my money and Monica's going to come with me and we're going to go to Expo but I'll only be there for one day so Thursday and then leave Friday so that is Wednesday night at Imperium Emporium interium interium close we're all over good thing Andy bagwell's right now I kick your ass that'll be Wednesday and then Expo starts um Expo is Thursday I will be at Expo Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday Travis is going to be there just Thursday Tom is gonna be there Wednesday THS Friday Saturday Sunday Wednesday night but actually the qualifying for the tournament starts on Wednesday Wednesday and then all day Thursday is qualifying all day Thursday Tom you're gonna be streaming that yes but yeah we we're all G to be at the show on Thursday so if you want to catch the three of us do your best to try to catch us on Thursday otherwise travels th day and then Tom will always be easy to find he'll be Where is Waldo he'll be in the he'll be behind the stream or near the stream um but yeah it's that's going to be fun so that'll be cool um I need to look in because I can technically do that tournament right I can still sign up or is it all sold out no no you can abely do it yeah I think I I think I should you know why you should too why not I might actually stay and watch that yeah try to qualify on Thursday I have and you make it to finals anybody that plays make it to finals so then I would be I would play at some point in time on Friday not true everybody doesn't make it so like if you're in it to be if you're in the no I mean if you're in the top 250 you have to make a oh excuse me sorry Joel if you were in if you were in the if you were theoretically or sorry hypothetically hypothetic if you were in the top 250 yes you would not make it to a if you didn't qualify a oh well I'm not so I'm good right so we don't have to worry about it okay has anybody ever not qualified for a finals at Expo yes has that happened mhm that happened last year by accident I forgot about that mhm oh bless I'm not going to mention names no we won't say names like somebody a somebody accidentally didn't realize the for the funny thing is they were told by one person that they were going to make it at the bottom and then another person said no you are not oh so it was kind of like and they they literally drove like three hours to come back to find out that they weren't playing they weren't there that sucks oh double O so that is for all the tournament listeners out there that means Fox Cities Pinball starting this Wednesday to Sunday you got highquality tournament streaming there's going to be the stern um pro circuit finals wins the following Wednesday night that's GNA be on you said Stern Pinball YouTube on the stern YouTube channel I mark from backhand pinball is going to do it and mark from backhand Pinball's also going to be streaming the New York City pinball Championship during the whole Super Series thing so you can and then during the actual show Fox Cities again we'll be streaming during Expo th during Expo yeah we'll be streaming Thursday Friday Saturday and Sunday as well I mean jesz now here's the question is there gonna be a live Joel and friends on Wednesday um I don't think well okay so there maybe maybe it won't be live at the show I know um Steve always had like a party the Wednesday before Expo and they've usually streamed so Joel and Friends Jo Jo friends you're supposed to come cheer me on I will yes SPC yeah that would be pretty cool but believe it or not I have to drive up a pinball machine for Jeff Tois Jeff Tois actually bought a game at a show like last year Grand Slam I think is what it is it's an older game it's my garage so I have to drive that up because he's getting it driving it home but so that's all the tournament there's a lot of tournament a lot of tournament so even if you're at home you're there's going to be a lot of tournament stream to watch tour in cheer stop listening to this podcast right now turn on Twitch watch us then turn it back on when you see us on the screen perfect um all right so that brings us to actual pinball Expo so pinball Expo is next week what if you're going to pinball Expo for your first time I think we said this before if you're going to pinball Expo for your first time what do you do what do you do and then even if it's yeah what are what are the initial yeah go for it get a hotel [Music] room yeah ask all your lady friends to go with you and you're going to be sleeping by yourself yep um well there's the stern Tour on Wednesday Thursday Thursday Thursday morning there's a Stern factory tour there's a bus they'll pick you up you got to buy a ticket y pick you up show you the tour bring you back okay yeah then expo's over have you had fun uh so there's no yep there's those lot there's a lot of seminars yep lot of seminars uh you have the free play Hall which is the it's a part of the main hall yeah so that's that's open yeah just just look at the pinball Expo and find out what the dates are and St I'm not there's yeah there's a ton of pinball machines that are just sitting there there's there that's in the free play area you can walk up to any of them they're in free play you can just tournament room and start playing a pinball machine yes the tournament room there were four or five security guards that will kick your ass just you see Tom graph in the same room as you don't play the game don't play the games if you see Tom graph by his streaming stuff do not come up and start talking tom don't play game you'll get angry Tom gra don't play game if you don't see that's that's that's the check if you step up to a game you look around if you don't see Tom you can play it if you do see Tom don't play it is that I think it's pretty easy pretty good barometer up um and then there's the vendor area which is the vendor area it's it's only open certain times but there's a ton of different stuff to buy products things accessories but then there's also Distributors there that have brought games or teamed up with certain manufacturers to show off games then certain manufacturers will have their own areas so um go to those I mean there's a chance that some of the pinball designers software people employees of these of these um companies will be there and they're all nice people go talk go talk to them say hi shake their hand you know uh if you want bring stuff to sign I know like Stern has like a signing um like a signing session um if you want to get a translate signed or whatever bring it um it's pretty cool that's what that's one thing I really love about Chicago pinball Expo being that all the the majority of the manufacturers are in Chicago a lot of the employees come to this show um which is really really neat so yeah I'm looking at the list right now and I think I don't know if you guys said this earlier I guess on Thursday night they're showing and um the man who saved the game oh ball for Roger sharp so they're going to show that and Roger's supposed to be there too that's at 9:30 and then one of the things on Friday that's kind of caught my attention the uh mystery pinball company is going to have a pizza party from 9:30 till midnight that night you just really like pizza I do yeah I like pizza and and I like Mysteries you put those together that's a whole another thing there are uh so mystery pinball company has already said said that they are planning on announcing announcing essentially themselves their company their game everything so there's going to be a new company with a new game there hopefully to see play all that stuff um Jersey Jack October 19th they're announcing their next pin so pretty good chance that'll also be at Expo so we'll be able to see that um spoilers pretty confident it's Elton John that's been the rumor that's been floating around for a long time Steve Ritchie's game even the marketing stuff that throwing out there I think they even said like the next pin is set to launch you know rock reference not Elon could be could be this could all be a a joke I don't know I don't know I don't know maybe they're serious I don't know I don't know Stern obviously there's G they're GNA have Venoms there because that's what they're there's there's going to be Venoms there so if you haven't played Venom play it definitely give it a shot if you're wondering how to play the game there is a an instruction card and in the lower left you could read it or just follow you know you hit a yellow shot then hit the Blinky yellow shot you hit a blue shot hit the Blinky blue shot supposed to be two magic girls right two magic girls are supposed to be there somebody's bringing those over supposed to be for sale to I think so yeah that's probably going to be an auction type scenario um there is uh the guy from homein apparently is going to be there apparently he doesn't make pinball machines for pinball people so Joy we'll see about that um let's see then I guess gtf is going to be there 8:00 pm gtf on Friday American Pinball's GNA be there and they're bringing in all the actors all the actors that were in the pin are going to be in person so if you Happ to be a gtf owner bring your translight in get him signed you know might as well um can we nominate Joel for the uh pinball expo hall of fame yeah we probably should why not why not why not yeah um so that'll be that should be fun uh that's American spooky Spooky's wrapping up their their Scooby-Doo so I I highly doubt their yeah I don't even see spook they may not even be there okay spooky I don't think usually comes yeah American pin wall we've talked about Stern will be there St yeah Stern is doing a bunch of stuff from 3 until 6:00 it looks like on Friday yep so it looks like they're doing making a Venom they're doing Foo Fighters and the7 game rules keep die yep and then Jersey Jack is going to have the Godfather design team at 9:00 a.m. Saturday morning so right and early if you want to go look at that um and I guess Saturday I don't even know what's going on Saturday cgc I'm assuming we'll bring some games hopefully pole fiction I'm going to sneeze go for it what why is he looking like that nailed it what kind what kind of sneeze was that like a sneez I was hoping no I sneezed I I have this but I actually use I this is the universal sign to like keep talking you know you can whatever oh oh you know a good podcast at the schedule I wasn't looking at you okay if we just go through manufacturer Scooby or Scooby wow spooky is probably not going to be there American pinball I think is really going to be pushing gtf um Stern thanks for the mute button on that bro as he just there he goes I forgot Stern is probably gonna have Venoms I doubt they're gonna have stranger things maybe um but Stern's gonna be doing their thing Jersey Jack will probably have Godfathers and they're gonna have their next game um who else we I don't know if haggus is planning on being there homein said they hagas dut and zomie Yeti are doing something together they're doing an artist seminar yeah Saturday Dutch pinball maybe there'd be a big Labowski there I don't know pinball Brothers might be there with some Queen and alien um and then yeah if there's any anybody else if there's anybody coming out of the wood you know new companies or something so we'll have to see but there should be good stuff like I know we were spoiled with Texas because there was what was it it was like six games all announced all at once P3 I don't know if P3 P3 was there two years ago when I was there that would be cool if there had a final resistance or um um anything at 645 it says how we design games at multimorphic okay so they should be there speaker Stephen Silver Perfect so hopefully they'll have a game but um yeah if you're new to all this just try to play the games you're not used to um so yeah and then it should be great I if you if you go to Expo play as much pinball as you can but the the reality is what I love about Expo is the people so talk to some of the industry professionals if you can they would love your feedback um talk to other people go to the yeah if you're talking if you're standing in line to play a pinball machine go the person in front of you probably loves pinball as much as you do so talk to him you know meet some people it's gonna be great it's going to be really really great and definitely ask them if you can play in a game with them and then get to wizard mode on ball one yeah yeah do that make them walk away in disgust yeah that'll get you a lot of friends um but yeah I think that's I mean we'll we're definitely going to have to do a pinball Expo recap you know probably on next episode um but I'm pumped I'm pumped I look forward to Expo all year um both of them the two that I go to Texas pinball festival and then Chicago pinball Festival so I I can't wait to go um and by all means if you see any of us at the show please come say hi um yes unless I'm streaming unless unless he's streaming yes then don't but yeah no it's it's going to be great I don't know anything else I miss about Expo no that sounds pretty good right there I mean you pretty much covered everything we don't know until people start announcing stuff and showing off stuff and billing stuff and then I don't know then we could talk about it afterwards there should be more stuff coming on though quick I would think yeah well we're about at that time we had on our Facebook we did our normal post of hey um do you guys have any questions or there's anything you guys want us to talk about um first question I I the fact that Jersey Jack is announcing something I think I had read this somewhere somebody said is there a chance that um they're going to lower the price is there a chance they're going to lower the price and I would I've never expected pinball to to lower in price but I do know what Jurassic Jurassic part well well I do know what jjp the amount of product they have out right now sitting on distributor shelves I think it would be smart if they lower the price but but do we know if they're going to do it or not I do not I don't know that question question if we know they're going to do it or is the question do we think they should do it I know nothing I know nothing well I'm saying what's the question well yeah what is the question do we think do we think they will do they I think the answer is no do I think they should yes yeah I don't think they will but I think it would be a good move to try to figure out how to cut cost or how to kind of pivot a little bit to get a little bit more competitively priced with everybody else because I mean obviously Godfather it looks great G&R look great Toy Story for what it was it look great as well but obviously the prices they're way up there compared to everything else and if you're seeing people get push back to stern over their prices they're certainly going to get push back to prices on any other company as well so that's just something be aware of but who knows yeah I don't know if they can go up or go down uh what do we got Ryan Williams why people care only what Travis thinks and if triple drain is turning into a solo drain podcast I'd like to see a deep thought by Joel Sigman oh I deep think about that all right Joel you got 15 seconds to give us a deep thought I'm not ready for that I'm over here swimming in the just act like you're going to you're going to sneeze and you do your little spin thing again no let me let me ask another I'll think of one I I'll think of a deep thought geez uh Sterling balls of steel uh what did he say he said um Cactus canyo coming out next summer is cgc done with remakes uh they are promising they're going to do another run of Medieval Madness at some point but after that after cgc are they going to dip into another remake I don't know that I want them to I I'm sure a lot of people do I want them too yeah what what game are you looking for Joel um I don't know I mean if he did a POA game that would be pretty cool which game Joel what do you want to see well that's what I love about Cactus Canyon is best spit it out Cactus Canyon's already been made which one I don't know I don't know Deep Thoughts with cus no I would want that like I I think taals are theater of magic would be pretty cool but I would love for them to do what they're doing with Cactus Canyon if they took tales for the Arabian night and then release some additional code to actually bring make modernize the game a little bit it would be sick yeah yeah yeah I'm super impressed with cgc and their build quality in the machines that they make so I'm I like feel I'm annoyed like if if they remade if they did another run of Monster Bash I'd probably get one if they did another run of Medieval Madness I'd probably get one like I really like you don't have enough room I know I know I know uh do we think Stern will increase their prices for 2024 I hope not I hope not I hope I don't think they will I I don't see how they can right now but never say never I hope they don't yeah uh new Pinball Alley sign is it worth it we already paying $2,000 for Toppers that's not place in my place it would it would set up Tom are you tempted at all to get one uh no cuz I really don't have any room for it and it won't fit above my Toppers oh mummer uh Travis might Travis hey take it in everybody everybody watching this right now take in his background it took him this long to to make it look decent this is it this is the last time we're seeing this room because Travis bought a house Travis bought a house so we'll have to see what the what his Studio looks like um we all know Monica's going to paint it it's going to look great and um it's probably going to be a closet or something initially it's GNA be yeah we got to start from the bottom work be pretty sad at the very beginning yeah but your new place you might be able to fit that topper or not topper that that sign oh the pinball yeah I mean we got we got a little room little bit not it's not like tomes with his Toppers right uh Tom what is going too far when modifying a game for a tournament something you've experienced or don't or wouldn't want to play um yeah I mean there's there's definitely going too far um you know making making games so tilty like you breathe on it and it tilts uh um just uh in general there's a lot of things you can do like slight things like just making the slings really sensitive to your games that would do wonders to make a game tougher where you don't have to necessarily you know pull posts out and things like that um but there there is going too far and I've think I think some games have have gotten there in tournaments yeah Y and that's frustrating yeah we've talked about this before that there's been a few tournaments where the feedback is the games are so hard it's just not even fun like it's not even really fun it's just who survives the longest basically on the pin and when you when you when you remove the actual skill aspect of the game and every pin is just luck and chance and hope you know that the ball just stays in bounds a little longer well there's there's making a a pin brutal and then there's making a pin like disgustingly brutal that you don't even want to flip the ball I mean it's yeah there there's got to be like a happy medium yeah uh but I I think that's dependent on the game too because uh you don't necessarily want to make a game like stars super tough because it's already tough you agree Travis no I agree the I guess the one thing I think people go a little bit overboard with is having and I played on a few pins like this before to where the Tilt is so tight that a ball in the pop bumpers is causing dangers yeah not that yeah that that in itself's not fun so if you ever want to put on tight tilt just keep that in mind I I think that the way to go with pinball especially in tournaments of course you don't need games playing forever but you need them playing Fair yeah so it's almost like finding a balance an equilibrium balance that I would rather see the pins be made a little bit more difficult as opposed to making the modes on hard or something like that like just keep the modes and the multiball on default you can go ahead and open up the outlanes if you want but if you're going to do that and you're going to make the pin steeper go ahead and loosen up the tilt a little bit let somebody be able to move the pin yeah because if the outlanes are just super wide open and you can't even move the pin and all the settings are on that's just that's not fun at all I've played in tournaments like that before yeah and it's it's gotten to where a couple times I just said to hell with it just went and got a beer and just stopped carrying because it's just yeah I mean that's why we all play Pinball we want to have fun what about like what about lightning flippers like would you are you okay if they put lightning flippers on every game like I said it depends on the game if you do it on you know again you put lightning flippers on Stars you know I'm going to tell that person to go off themselves you know but uh yeah you know but yeah I mean if a long a long playing Stern game sure put lightning flippers on it it doesn't bother me yeah we had lightning flippers on the Godzilla at free play Florida last year and that was actually really fun yeah it wasn't it it played great actually I didn't think it play it was a different Nuance to it and it was just yeah it made the game a lot of fun I mean the game's already fun but yeah I was just after doing that I was like hell I might want to put lighning flippers on mine at my house so I've never had that thought nope never had it um you've had thoughts I need to put on more Precision flippers I think I think Travis and I would agree like you know you just don't want to take skills away you know that that should be there um by making a game that difficult yeah the game needs to stay competitive yeah and it doesn't need to devolve into just who does the best skill shots for all three or all five balls that's not fun that's ridic I've SE I've seen some people and I I won't name the tournaments but I've seen some people just absolutely brutalize even em and it's just like why you know it just because that makes it to where a lot of people just get super frustrated and just overall you take the fun out of it and the last thing any of us want to do is travel somewhere and not have fun you know mind if I lose I don't like to lose but hey it happens we all have to keep doing it eventually yep but I want the game to at least play fair and I want it to at least be fun y yeah um Jeremy here I think tried to call you out here Travis could you talk about how Travis said that no more stranger things are going to be made at the beginning of the year and I stand by that statement because he said uh travish he actually commented on this he said October isn't the beginning of the year that um uh it would be interesting to get Travis takes on what pinball manufacturers he thinks maybe on the ropes and how their next release could impact whether they can stay in business um I'd like all three of your guys takes he said Travis Moore from his perspective of somebody who works for a pinball dealer I would assume because you work for a pinball distributor or dealer you probably have to filter your take oh yeah I can totally just burn every Bri right now in the next 10 seconds I totally could now I I'll just say this I think from a business perspective it does concern me where the pinball industry is headed right now and a large part of that is because there's just where the prices are at right now obviously people are having to make choices over how they want to spend their income with uh mortgage rates just going way up with the cost of living going way up gas groceries everything College college yeah exactly there's so many things going up and so there's only so many people like the pinball industry the pinball buyer base is big but at some point though we're going to find that ceiling and at some point there's going to be more demand or more Supply than demand whereas the other way we saw there's more demand than Supply so obviously Supply is catching back up so the question really becomes then what are people willing to pay and what's their utility for the products coming out which means what are the themes going to be like what are the designs going to be like what are the rules going to be like how are the rule cards going to be designed like all these things reads them who cares right exactly all these things we need to think of and it's just you know I think a lot of people don't realize how difficult it truly is making pinball when you really get down to it from the conception of a design from figuring out a rule set to figuring out sound design to figuring out animations the figuring out the artwork and that's just yeah that's all to come together just to get to the point to even just manufacture it then you're talking about manufacturing at that point then you're talking about getting a game in a box then you got all the shipping Logistics so there's just so much that goes into it and you know I I am a little bit concerned with what's going to happen come 2024 how the industry is going to react to the different pins that are coming out and whether or not certain companies can get pins out in time because obviously if you announce a game and you're not producing it at scale and it's not coming out in volume people aren't responding to it then you know what's happening because you're not bringing in much revenue so that's just yeah all that's concerns for me and I'm sure people can kind of see what companies out there that they could probably draw their own conclusions what they what they think how the industry is going to go but you know I I I think that it's just pinball itself is in a unique spot and I think we're seeing it really happen very quickly where you see third party uh Market going use games going yeah you know we're seeing a lot of stern Pros right now be around 5,000 I've seen a couple at 4,800 and those are prices I have not seen in years and yeah people people might be celebrating it like oh yeah prices are coming down all this and that but that just means that if the prices are going down that much that means those new and box games aren't going to move as quick because other people are going to see that and if they're used to turning through games well what would be the point of them buying a new inbox game why not just wait two months and get a game and there's a lot of people thinking that way so you know that's that's an obvious concern but I think overall as long as good games are produced and as long as manufacturing keeps up a steady Pace you know I I think that overall everything will be just fine longterm but shortterm though I I don't know it's going to be interesting I'm curious to see how this plays out going into uh quarter one quarter 2 and quarter three of next year it's good answer uh Tom you want to just go ahead and burn those bridges do you want to go ahead and call call anybody else no I don't cuz I already have uh couple of Hitman after me for some comments I made so I I better I better take the Fifth Amendment on this one yeah I I'm no I'm no marketing expert I'm no business Expert I'm I don't I I don't know any of that but it's when I look at some of these companies and there's a handful of companies out there that have had you know either one two three or more releases recently that haven't sold particularly well if if that's the case it's it kind of becomes a well how long can you go how long can you go um and then you have other companies that they sell out all their allotment day one but then they take so long to make them that sure they they earned a lot of money when they initially sold sold out but that money can only be stretched so far and it makes you wonder how far can it go um I mean I'm not cgc I I like I said I love cgc I would love to buy more games from them I'm super impressed with them I was a little nervous when I told Zach I wanted to get an se+ like I was really nervous like is cgc gonna be able to get all the Ellie's out yet alone make the SE pluses it wasn't until P fiction came around then then I had a little more reass Insurance of like well at least here's another game with a little more Revenue that can support this but I I want them to be in business for many many many more years um but even even you look at a juggernaut like Stern I mean they just brand new Factory that's a lot of money to CH to move all that over I know Venom hasn't sold exactly the way they wanted it to I don't agree I think it's a great game I want more people to play this game Foo Fighters really was awesome but then Bond didn't do particularly well before that but luckily the next game that's coming is lwin pretty confident that's going to do just fine so I I feel pretty good I feel pretty good about Stern um but yeah there's some other manufacturers out there I don't know there's a lot of big question mark here and it's weird to be in this hobby now and Travis is gone uh cameras cost a lot more to now Joel it's weird to see so many games in stock it is very weird that so many games are in stock well and that's the tough part too is to consider this if you see a ton of games in stock that means that that business or that particular business has cash tied up in that obviously you know I mean we we talked about this in terms of or what was it cash grabs or money grabs whatever people's calling it it's like yeah there's cash grabs everywhere that's why we're all in this business because we have to make a profit we have to make a living so yeah that's I I don't know that's my biggest concern for a lot of people is how is their cash flow going to be because it was super easy to not have to worry about it during 2020 2021 early 2022 when everything's flying but once things stop Flying and cash gets tied up got to manage it a little bit which what are we going to see more or what what are we going to see sooner are we going to see a pinball company fold or are we going to see Distributors fold like which is the red flag are are Distributors going to run first I think you'll see dealers before a manufacturer yeah CU there is a difference between dealers and Distributors Distributors would be the huge huge ones but yeah I think it's it's likely you'll see dealers go out of business like not any of the big ones but got to remember there's just so many of them that somebody could just as easily they're running it as a hobby which I mean that's fine that's their that's their choice and they may just as easily say the hell with it I don't want to mess around with it with doing this I want to go off and do something else so yeah that's just part of business we're never going to run at 100% Capac so yeah at some point somebody's got to fold or at some point somebody's got to sell off that's just that's part of doing business but yeah it's it's not it's not easy this isn't an easy time frame because the easy time frame is when you have a theme that's just going to sell everything you don't have to worry about your allocation you just know that day one you're going to get phone calls off the hook you're going to get all your pre-orders you're going to get everybody saying they they want the L all this and that that didn't happen for a lot of people to ven them and that's that's kind of new for a lot of people that's kind of new that hasn't been happening for a long time for a few years so you know I don't think it's time to sound the alarm completely yet but it's definitely it should be a indicator of what the current pinball buyer is willing to accept and what they're not willing to accept whether that's through theme whether that's through design whether that's through ART whatever like all these are Clues you know and you just got to find a way what what will the masses accept you want to find something that the majority will want and that's how you'll start to move x amount of units again yeah that's always the goal for any any company out there all right last question before we wrap her up um Ash asks types of rubbers used in competition I've been using clear perfect plays as they are much cleaner but they're so bouncy and I'm considering going back to standard rubbers so specifically for competition is go-to like District 82 what is it that Eric just stocks up on um I'm not 100% sure what what he uses I know on some of his games he has uh uh like silicone rubbers like super bands for the flippers on other ones he has the nice bouncy Red Rubber um and other ones he just has a traditional black rub rubber but uh as far as flippers go and and mostly the other rubbers are like your standard white or black kind of rubber rings just traditional rubber yeah okay um I know for me personally like at home I have tried the like the perfect play uh rubbers and I don't necessarily care for them I mean they they play fine they're easy to clean that's the nice thing but I I'm just more of a traditionalist and I like the you know the traditional rubbers I like I like the like black or red flipper rubber on my games um don't really care for super bands super bands are great on location because they just don't wear out um so I I totally understand somebody like operating a game and using them but as far as tournaments go I I really don't like them because they the balls just don't bounce off of them uh after a while you know but uh that's that's my take on it cool I would say uh souo hat red rubbers yeah those are good ones that's why I like yeah I have that on all my penzo so you see that at a lot of highle tournaments like a nationala yeah a little bit they you have to definitely be on your your catches and your drop catches and everything and it kind of adds like a weird spin to the ball a little bit too if you're not quite used to it but honestly if you learn how to play with suzo haps you can pretty much play with any rubber out there it makes everything else just feel super easy so I would always tell everybody if you want to get better at the game get some suzo haps and put it on your favorite machine at home interesting um you know me in my tournament perspective um I no I just leave everything as stock so I like the I used to be all about Titan uh silicon rubbers I think they're awesome I think they look amazing I used to like change all my rubbers and all Joel uh well one borrowing games I'm not going to waste time replacing them and it's just like like on Godzilla I I've been moding the heck out of it but I just don't have any interest in changing the rubbers I'm I'm totally fine with you're modding everything else but the rub the game play yeah it's like the stock I'm totally fine you put the Precision flippers on not put this Precision flippers on Godzilla yet but totally fine with just standard black rubber on the flippers um I'd consider changing maybe the slings to a clear silicone just because it lets more light through but other than that I'm I'm good I'm good with what I got but well thank you thank you for everybody that uh sent in questions I appreciate that um I think we just we are over two hours so I think I think it is isn't that a usual episode yeah usually we shoot for right at about two and we are over it we are over it tonight when have we ever gone below two uh early on early on yeah you guys remember when this podcast started out our plan was 45 minutes and that's it and then we'll be done yep but now now being that we record like every two three 4ish weeks you know we we make the most of it we make the most only we did it weekly week 4our podcast all right well let's plug it up um Tom go for it I uh I do a podcast called triple drain right here MH I also do streaming pinball for Fox Cities Pinball which is what I it's my job I I don't have anything else I don't do anything else nothing else my life yeah please please follow me yes please follow sub give him all the love he's going to be um he's gonna be streaming a lot over the next two weeks so definitely check them out there's actual chains by the rig it's it's pretty uncomfortable yeah it's going to be great well thank you Tom thank you for doing that I look forward to watching um Travis plug away you guys can find me right here on Triple drain and you can find my content over at my job on the pinball company's YouTube channel and we're actually Joel you'll love this we're coming out with a new video tomorrow so I guess by the time this comes out I already be out but I'm going to teach people how to Venom at their launch party not beat the whole game just try to win your launch party so I give my exact Str that I would do well let me try maybe I should try it get you know set some high scores on mine well yeah you could you could do that I broke a billion broke show I didn't show it on this one but honestly if somebody's playing Venom and they just generally don't have a clue and they want the easy way to do it just pick Peter Parker and just play as Peter Parker the whole entire time because you can still get your locks and your Carnage is worth so much more during that time too so that's what I would recommend okay all right so if you're going to a Venom launch party pick Peter bker you're on your own from there but that's what you're saying if you don't know what's going on got it but after you watch the video you'll know exactly what's going on you could decide if you want to use that strategy or not nice well cool um yeah my name is Joel I do this incredible podcast triple train bitball podcast I also do the the fliping out stream every Wednesday night from 10:00 to midnight uh where we rotate doing like a chatting stream with flipping out with friends or an actual gameplay stream uh we're streaming this week I think we're going to play little Rick and Morty before it leaves the house um and then um after Expo we will probably do a flipping out with friends just doing like an expo review which should be a good time um I also did an interview with Brian Eddy that was posted a few days ago it was really fun talking to him so check out that interview um and that was not Joel and friends that was flipping out and friends right do you have a Joel and friends no it's always been flipping out for sure he had a Joel and friend somewhere it's Joel and friends it's always been fliping out with friends Tom didn't he have a joelan friend somewhere we made we made that show you made that up and you've been rolling with it yep damn it all right well um like always uh Tom you get the last words uh have fun at your tournaments and