Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 43 - Our Top 5 Games and Expo Prep!

The Pinball Network·video·2h 11m·analyzed·Oct 11, 2023

Analysis

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TL;DR

Triple Drain discusses Venom ruleset complexity and design philosophy balancing casual vs competitive appeal.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast 43 features hosts Joel, Travis, and Tom discussing their top 5 games and expo preparation. The episode centers on an extended debate about Venom's ruleset complexity, accessibility, and the challenge of designing pinball games that satisfy both casual players and competitive enthusiasts. The hosts critique players and reviewers (notably Cary Hardy) for not reading rulecards or putting in effort to understand the game before forming negative opinions.

Key Claims

Venom's ruleset is actually simple and comparable to Attack from Mars, requiring only color-matching and following lit shots
high confidence · Travis and Tom argue this point extensively; Travis states 'it's literally just one shot like you're getting so many people are just getting in their own way instead of hitting a shot three times on a ramp you're hitting the lit lights two two two two shot one shot'
Venom (Pro) 32-page ruleset PDF is padded with unnecessary spacing and only contains a fraction of actual content
high confidence · Tom argues the document is 'triple spaced' and 'whoever wrote that I assume Dwight did it it's almost like the way I would write my papers in high school to try to get away with making the font as big as possible'
Cary Hardy admitted to not reading Venom (Pro) rulecard before reviewing the game
high confidence · Joel states: 'I do like at the end of K Hardy's video he admitted to not reading the rule card' and Travis confirms 'I do appreciate that that he admitted about that'
Venom (Pro) is easier and smoother to play than Premium due to simpler, more consistent shot mechanics
high confidence · Travis explains: 'I've i've put more time on the pro the pro is easier... the shots don't change once you figured it out you figured it out' and notes that Premium's up-down posts and diverters make shots 'clunkier'
Modern pinball game design faces an impossible task trying to please both casual players and competitive/expert players simultaneously
medium confidence · Joel states: 'I think it's an impossible task to write a code set that pleases the Karl DeAngelo of the world that can that want super crazy mult all that craziness and a complete novice'

Notable Quotes

“Travis's camera just went out and just came back on... Travis's camera 30 minutes that's what it's got It's got 30 minutes before it shuts off so that's how long we've been talking”
Joel@ 0:26 — Humorous technical difficulty establishing the casual, unscripted nature of the podcast
“I will say I do like at the end of K Hardy's video he admitted to not reading the rule card I agree I do I do appreciate that that he admitted about that and I was just like bro no I couldn't believe when somebody told me that”
Joel@ 19:46 — Key moment calling out Carrie Hardy for not preparing before his Venom review
“Venom is not that they're trying something new so I could understand how people that are not stuck but set in their ways of what they think most games how you attack them Venom is different than that”
Travis@ 17:19 — Explains Venom's departure from traditional Stern game structure
“I think it is um you know theoretically you could knock out your mini modes your combos your three combos very quickly you could do it in six shots or if you do the skill shot you can do it even less”
Tom@ 24:22 — Demonstrates the actual simplicity of Venom's core mechanic
“I think Stern can do that technically now if they wanted to because Carl has all those little mini screens that goes up for him right... I'm saying like an actual person like have Jack danger like hey this Jack danger I'm going to show you how to play this”
Tom@ 27:32 — Suggests using LCD tutorial features with celebrity endorsement to teach casual players

Entities

Triple Drain Pinball PodcastorganizationJoelpersonTravis MosemanpersonTomperson Venomgame Cary HardypersonStern PinballcompanyDwight Sullivanperson

Signals

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gameplay_signal: Extended debate about Venom ruleset complexity and whether it's actually simple or confusing to casual/new players. Hosts argue the game mechanics are fundamentally straightforward (color-matching, following lit shots) but players psychologically overcome it.
high · Multiple segments discussing how simple the game is versus player perception; comparison to Simon Says and Attack from Mars; discussion of actual game flow taking only 6-10 shots for basic objectives
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gameplay_signal: Hosts identify mechanical differences between Venom Pro and Premium that affect playfield flow. Premium's up-down posts and diverters create less consistent shots; Pro is smoother and easier.
high · Travis detailed analysis: 'up down post hurts it doesn't help it' on Premium Gwyn; comparison to Avengers and Godzilla Pro vs Premium preferences
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community_signal: Hosts criticize Carrie Hardy for publishing negative Venom review without reading the rulecard, representing broader pattern of content creators not preparing adequately before offering opinions.
high · Joel: 'I do like at the end of K Hardy's video he admitted to not reading the rule card' and extended discussion about effort required to fairly review modern games
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design_philosophy: Hosts discuss fundamental tension in pinball design: competing demands to make games accessible to casual players while providing depth for competitive/expert players. Argues this is nearly impossible to balance.
high · Joel: 'I think it's an impossible task to write a code set that pleases the Carl D'Angelos of the world... and a complete novice'; discussion of Monsters receiving criticism despite being intentionally simple
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Transcript

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0:05

[Music] the pinball network is online launching triple drain pinball

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podcast holy crap Travis's camera just went out and just came back on that tells you so any any listener or anybody that's watching this on YouTube Travis's camera 30 minutes that's what it's got It's got 30 minutes before it shuts off so that's how long we've been talking since before we just hit this button so we that I think we actually had an official like meeting before we recorded is what it seems like are you are we already sick of each other after 30 minutes is that Tom are you sick sick of us yet yes yes okay Travis are you sick of us are you what is that English are you sick of us yet are you sick no I love Tom Tom's fing Beauty you though you suck oh perfect all right hitting the

1:01

button we're three guys who like to talk so we came up with a CL our name we're Jo and TR talk in all and we call ourselves triple dra triple dra triple dra Tri trip best song ever it is a great song it is a great song shout out to Jason for giving us that Jason pinball party pinball party uh has officially left uh tpn um no bad blood no problem at all but he left so definitely check make sure CU he's still making episodes make sure you subscribe to him on his own channel Travis is holding his hand up what do you want you told me no Doom and Gloom and I felt bad for telling you you sucked but then as I raised my hand you went straight to something else that's Doom and Gloom that's a doom and gloom I don't know what to think right now Jason's still doing his thing he's just doing it on his own you just announced it he's doing his it's not this is not new news he's doing his own thing just make sure if you guys enjoyed pinball party he has his own it's his own separate channel so shout out Jason appreciate God Travis what do you want I extended my apology to you you just went right over it you're like my wife I say I'm sorry you're just you just go off and do something else you want I forgive you is that are those the words you're looking for no I I just want to be heard that's all I hear you and I see you I don't think the bouncing hand will carry through to the final video but I wish it did cuz it's it's great it's the only way I can get your attention oh boy all right what was it uh Tom has like an air horn sound but didn't you do that once used your soundboard to like that's how you got yeah but I don't I don't have it here anymore you know I just noticed guys we messed up we talked for 30 minutes and we forgot to type out I got it I got the road map I got it God help us what would we do without Joel you would probably be more successful I bet you could do it you could do it for sure this is the Travis podcast hey remember remember originally it was going to be a Tom gra solo podcast it was and then it a Tom and Travis podcast and I somehow inserted myself into the mix so you know the wh ifs this could be this could what what could have been we felt bad for the straight what imagine me imagine me talking for like 30 minutes I know 30 minutes exactly there wouldn't be a twoh hour long podcast that's for sure there's zero chance at that um but all right well uh topic number one topic number one on our list was Venom there have been more and more people have played Venom and it has been entertaining watching the uh people's thoughts it has been entertaining watching People's thoughts on their first initial experience I've seen some that are really good you know there's a lot of Le buyers out there that are like this game's awesome they love the way it shoots somebody I think somebody said like this they feel this is like one of the best fan layouts ever uh I know hottie Frisco pinball just got his he's raving loving it um but then there's other people whether it's on pinside or you know huge shout out to the one the only Carrie Hardy Carrie Hardy made a video on his initial impression on on um Venom Carrie actually used uh a clip from my streams he also used a clip from the pinball company Travis's video on on um supporting his views how did that compare yeah I'm curious yes um notice he didn't use any of my Clips yeah he should have just got all go through of them in there but um Carrie had the view of he he did not he has not enjoyed Venom and um I am shocked Carri talking bad about a pinball game on his YouTube channel no yeah yeah doesn't happen so I know I get it I get that the initial imp the initial reaction when Venom was revealed was that it was wide open or there there wasn't much there and I will say Zack at fliping out just recently swapped out the Venom Pro that I had for a Venom premium and now that I have one here in the house and actually looking at what's going on in the background there there's a lot of mechs actually there for for the up down ramps and the diverters that are needed for the game to change the way does there's a lot of mechs back there that you don't even realize are there until you play the game so is are there obvious mechs stuff popping out of the Playfield and whatnot it's not as obvious as some other games out there on the market but once you actually play the game and realize how different it shoots depending on your character I don't know I at now see the value or see what is what is added with the premium in Le Travis I know you have a premium at the pinball company do you agree with with that I mean and I know Tom you've played the premium but I don't think you've played a pro right no I've played Pros you've played both do you see or do you feel that there's a big difference between the premium and pro I mean it there's there's a significant difference um yeah I mean because you have like just like you said you have all the mechs in there that that change your your paths and shots and everything so but but uh I kind of like the pro better oh okay and why is that yeah just a little more wide open you can see the shots better that's main main reason I wish they did the doppelganger in the Pro yeah yeah that is a fun Mech doppelganger in the Pro is a wide open shot it's one shot doppelganger in the premium is three in small targets and it makes it a challenge like actually hitting the right target is a challenge while the dppa ganger on the pro was like boom you just hit a hit the wide open shot very easy Travis you've you've played both you you've had more time no no you haven't played a premium Pro we have a premium but I just stare at it and walk by it and go to the pro I will say I just haven't had time to play it yet I'll play it next week when I get back from Super Series I'll play it to get prepared for the stern pro circuit Championship I'm going to pick it the whole entire time yes there's I will say hot take I've i' I've put more time on the pro the pro is easier I I AB I actually think the pro is easier and it's because the shots don't change once you figured it out you figured it out it's not like it's ever going to change the Horseshoe was a relatively safe shot uh in my opinion both sides of it so there were in my opinion multiple consistent reliable safe shots in that game in the Pro that now all of a sudden with the premium are not as consistent or reliable um for example the Gwyn Gwyn on the pro it's just a horseshoe but on a premium that's when the middle 180 ramp is actually all the way up and acts like the Horseshoe so you wouldd think Gwyn when you pick gendam it would be almost the exact same as what you get with the pro but it's not when you go through the right side of the Horseshoe there's an up down post that will actually come up and slow down the ball or stop the ball and I found that actually can cause the ball to like now go a little bit to the left towards the middle of the game like middle of the flippers or that little bit of hold up throws off your timing like it actually in my opinion the up down post hurts it it doesn't help it doesn't it's not a safety measure um or because there's a diverter back there that can change it like that diverter makes that shot a little clunkier than on the pro because it's just a stagnant horseshoe so it's like little stuff like that that I do personally like the premium more because I love how the game is changing based on your character but if you're if you want to focus solely on shots the pro is probably the the way to go in that sense because it is a smoother way but that's that's not unheard of I mean there are people that argue Godzilla Pro is better than premium because of that people argue um Avengers Pro is better than the premium because of that like just you know you start removing next out you get more smooth consistent reliable shots am I now here's the real question did you read the rule card so so this is not a dig at anybody in particular but but hypothetically if you were going toally hpthe yes this is all hypothetical everybody like potentially this is hypothetical if you're if you're potentially going to put your op do with this statement if you're going to put your opinion out to the pinball masses you know on on what your views are your initial Impressions on the code and how easy it is to understand the code you would thinke hypthetically think we think you think you might you might maybe read the rules you might now I understand the rule card which is on every pinball machine ever lower left right there boom rule card that's a lot to ask that's a lot to that's like 10 sentences way more to ask is a 32 page PDF that Dwight wrote that's on the stern website I get that I get that and I get 32p page PDF maybe too much okay wait wait wait I've heard people talking about this and I don't I don't know where this is coming from yes I will contend it's 32 pages but if you've actually gone to read it it is literally like whoever wrote that I assume Dwight did it it's almost like the way I would write my papers in high school to try to get away with making the font as big as possible the margins as big as possible because I want to lengthen out my paper as much as I can there's just no comparison I think there's 32 Pages triple spaced there's not 32 pages of content on there they have a full page of DJ mixer stuff on there I mean why do some I mean it's fine what I'm saying is is yes it is thorough for what it is but people are just completely losing their minds by psyching themselves out that they have to know 32 Pages worth of content like I'm here to tell you there's only there's less than 1% of players in the world that even need to know that because they're even capable of doing that I mean that's the thing it's like you don't have to know an entire rule set the the first picture is just a big picture of Venom too the first page really only 3 go so what's the second page we probably T content no we got plenty of time let's look through it real quick all right page two how to and roll guide like that's all it it just tells you an overview real quick an overview if you if the argument is if the argument is it's not 32 Pages it's only 30 I still that's a I I think the argument I understood when I got into the pinball there would be no reading whatsoever what do people what do people to tell me what to do what do people really want out of modern pinb do we want em rule set Joel is that what we want do we want just like a little drop Target I I we want just I I really think that every game should have the exact same rules exact same score there you go just change the layout change the theme I have even a better idea we should come up with a rule set to where we don't even have modes in the game we just do Combos and guess what we just have three colors for those combos but how would you tell somebody they're doing a combo how would you show them that yeah I would I would just point and I would say you hit this shot uhuh and then you hit this shot with the wait wait wait if the shots the shots aren't lit oh light hit it no light you you don't touch it you don't deal with it you just you just hit that's what I would do we should do a r setus yeah we should do R set with three colors and then you know what we should we should do a roll set too with like a green triangle type light that represents a lock does it say lock I think it says lock and then you just you hit it and then eventually the machine will spit out more balls that you can keep above the flippers so that's okay so one of the things I said in our chat earlier was I think most people that when they walk up to a pinball machine they want to know two things they want to know how do I start a mode how do I start a multiball if you're a tournament player then you go like how do I get a play field X how do I get out ball there's a little completely that's completely different though I mean a tournament player here's the thing Joel here's the thing and and people have to get this out of their heads yeah if you're a casual right or you just play and you don't play in tournaments then yeah you yeah you don't need to know how to maximize your points you're playing the game for an entirely different reason right mhm and that's perfectly cool like good on you so that means you can explore the Playfield a little bit more you can find out what's going on because that's part of the fun now if you're not going to have fun by doing that what's your other choice you have to learn the rules yeah how do you learn the rules if you're not going to shoot around and figure it out well you got to read you got to read the rule card we can go we can go a few different ways here so we're going to go all the ways Joel okay so the two things that come to mind right okay you have you have stuff like you have something like a video game now some people hate how certain modern games have like a tutorial thing they're like I just want to play the video game the tutorial but you look at other games they talk about like how Super Mario Brothers you know level one one is a perfect intro because it puts obstacles in your way you only have two buttons and you got to figure out oh I have to jump or I have to this some people want that they say don't don't spoon feed me how to play the game but make it something that you can figure out as you go pinball games aren't linear like the how do we do that for pinball do we say when like do I treat it like I do with my twin daughters when the ball gets close to your flipper you flip you flip y yeah is that the tutorial if we're going to go back to people want modes and people want multiball they're maybe they're looking at the Playfield going where where is there a physical ball lock okay obviously right there so I'm going to keep shooting in that direction to see if it locks a ball maybe that's how they think they get to multiball otherwise they might they might read the rule card to so you know learn how to get to the multiball maybe maybe maybe they do maybe maybe maybe maybe but a mode I would say modern pinball most people are how do I get into a mode how do I get into something and usually the safe bet with a Stern game is ramp ramp you hit both ramps and then you find whatever shot starts the mode like that's pretty safe unless it's rush and you got to you know light a record and all that right I mean that's or Walking Dead Or Avengers but now James Bond code latest James Bond code you don't even have to do ramp ramp it's just one ramp one ramp starts a villain mode it's like a bozo villain mode now straighten the villain mod time you're in I'm in it and but then there's others some of the classic older games it's you hit whatever shot you hit you just hit it three times and you're watching the inserts light up so I get that there's those are certain like Staples that it's like well maybe it's this maybe it's that well guess what Venom is not that Venom is not that they're trying something new so I could understand how people that are not stuck but set in their ways of what they think most games how you attack them Venom is different than that but it still doesn't make any sense though because I've heard some people comparing it to attack from Mars in a way that they're like I wish that the rule set was like attack from Mars to where you just fill up a certain area and stuff like that and it's like Venom is kind of attack from Mars of light if you really look at just going to say it's kind slightly like that yeah yes exactly that's why when people are talking about I wish it was like aack from Mars I'm like bro it's literally is just one shot like you're getting so many people are just getting in their own way instead of hitting a shot three times on a ramp you're hitting the lit lights two two two two shot one shot and then you follow it you hit it for a second shot that's it but that's all you need and you said you threaten to read the do you have the card you don't have the card I have it front of me I didn't just threaten it it's a promise Joel so what is the wording on the Venom card that explains the mini modes cuz that's literally the base of the game and people can't get they can't wrap their head around it it literally says battle modes complete colorcoded mini combos to collect life in the grid complete three lights and be at level 10 to qualify battles with Riot fagee Agony and Lasher shoot police station ramp to start battle in battle shoot red and blue lights quickly to defeat foe increase your level for more power in battles I like unless somebody literally does not know what a combo is or doesn't know what a grid is I don't know how else Stern can explain this any easier for people to understand and I know one of the reviews comprehend that somebody's like I just kept picking Spidey because I couldn't tell what what any differences were between the characters it's like the LCD screen says it on the LCD say very clearly when choose your host over on the right it says very clearly what what the advantages are of the character so their whole stick about selling this game on all the promos is choose your host changes the game you look at any promo you see it it even says it on the car choose a host each host has a special advantage in physical layout and Playfield changes like it tells you I get it I mean and and like we weren't we weren we weren't singling anybody out we weren't we weren't singling anybody out but I will say I do like at the end of K Hardy's video he admitted to not reading the rule card I agree I do I do appreciate that that he ad about that and I was just like bro no I couldn't believe when somebody told me that but that's what he's saying is he's like I am admitting that I put forth zero effort before stepping in front of that game to to try to learn how to play the game so why is it then okay let's just let's take a step back here maybe maybe Tom can help us because I'm sure he he deals with some unique people Tomas wise in his line of work yeah so what like how would somebody play Venom and not be able to tell that and again this isn't about anybody I'm just talking like in general cuz obviously there's multiple people that are having this issue for some reason how would somebody not be able to tell if they hit one shot that's a certain color that it moves to another part of the Playfield and how would they also not be able to look at the grid that's prominently on the middle of the Playfield and tell that it has the same colored lights like how are how are people not corresponding that that's the thing like I I think with this game it can't get any simpler than what it is so if you can't play this game like anybody should know how to color coordinate lights we've all played Simon right a freaking game where you just go yeah it's literally that that's what this game is and people people people have convinced themselves it's they have to know like all these different Combos and memorize it hell the combo stays lit for what 10 seconds it stays lit forever it gives you plenty of time it wants you the whole game is designed for you to get through it it's completely designed for you to win and it's like if you can't understand it from the very base it's I don't I don't know because compared to anything else Stern has put out I don't think it's that complicated All Things Considered because yes I will I will go ahead and say that some games I could see how it'd be extremely confusing or a casual to come up and I think even Venom would it would be the same thing for somebody that's a complete casual that doesn't know how to log in that just wants to throw in a couple of quarters B around the ball yeah but we're talking about people that consume pinball content that listen to podcasts that watch videos that are go to shows like I don't I don't know how more dumbed down that this can get for people to understand I really don't and I think people are just getting in their own way with it that they've they've convinced themselves that pinball is just so complicated that they don't get it and they they're not for whatever reason they're not taking a rule set right because like we talked about earlier we're talking about 31 pages right you don't have to know the whole thing you can segment it out all you have to know is how do I start a mode that's all you have to know well Tom's got the answer he's ready like that's that's all you have to know then how do you start a multiple you know you can't start a mode in in venom Travis but that's the thing it's and that's the whole point there's not even a mode there so it should be so much easier to understand because it tells you on the rule card you know where people where people should get confused which is perfectly fine is if you do start a mode in any other game you may not know how to play it properly you may not understand the sequences the scoring what doubles it yeah that that I get but we're talking about just simply just hitting basic shots at this point with Venom yeah sorry Tom go ahead you're Beauty I don't know what I was gonna say well Tom you played it you were actually the first of the three of us that played it and I and you happen to have your streaming I was like I don't know what I'm doing but scoring a lot of points this is but that's that's a question maybe that's a question though I mean you are very good at pinball and have played a lot of pinball but you're saying in that initial first game of playing pinball you scored a lot of points I'm assuming because you're following the blinky light but you said I had no idea what I was doing so whatever you were do it wasn't it wasn't obvious what you were doing knew some things but not did you follow the Blinky lights I did I did there you go you that's literally 80% of the game I hit a blue shot and so now I should hit the other flashing blue shot did you did you correlate those or you just saw more pretty sure I it's been a while since I first played it but there's video evidence yes we go back could we could well I will say I mean I think it is um you know theoretically you could knock out your mini modes your combos your three combos very quickly you could do it in six shots or if you do the skill shot you can do it even less but shots that's it if you're yeah if you're starting from scratch if you're starting for level one I could understand the confusion of okay I did that but I now I mean you can't do the battle yet CU you don't I can understand Theus at that point if it's your first game yeah but we're talking about people that played it like eight or 10 or a dozen times yeah they're still confused that part I don't understand I don't know what's going on I think when I played it at first the most confusing thing was like okay I I got I I got my locks you know and now like how do I how do I get another lock I want to lock the ball again you know for Mayhem multiple right right yeah but you know it wasn't drawn out to me like that I you know usually it's like you got to do this to get your lock you know yeah you hit two standup targets that say light lock you know exactly something like that yeah or you hit the lock shot you know but there was there was nothing lit the other thing is I think might be confusing to people is the whole Mayhem multiball where you have to hold the that button right away to cancel out the multiball from starting now I could see a lot of people walking up to a game like oh [ __ ] what the hell just happened how did he get six balls and I only got two you know that's thing but those but that all takes effort in learning the game right of course because that part takes effort in just reading the rule card cuz it's right there too nobody reads that rule card if a complete novice stepped up to the game they could hit two green lights and they'd be in a multiball that's all they're doing is two shot like they play Pinball or they're just anybody that walks up there anybody that walks up the street I mean they could see oh I see two green arrows mistakenly hit them both and they're in a multiball which is good in a way cuz they're pum a multiball but if you get somebody off the street they have no idea yeah they have no idea they will be so confused over the fast lock system they don't even know there's a ball in the shooter L they'll be confused on how pick a character you know oh they oh you'll see it they'll just flip around and then they'll look down there's no ball going they'll look up they'll look here they'll look back down they'll flip around some more they push the start button a few more times what what happens every single time what if they did this okay they have an LCD what if they had you know Joel or Travis on there and say hey this is you know I'm yada y person this is how you play Venom and then like they take you through the game on the freaking LCD and explain things a quick tutorial a quick tutorial on the game yeah I think Stern can do that technically now if they wanted to because Carl has all those little mini screens that goes up for him right yeah and play like really quick but I'm saying like an actual person like have Jack danger like hey this Jack danger I'm going to show you how to play this blah blah blah the problem is is How could somebody hear that one location you know what I mean like think headphone kit for a 100 bucks I think it would be cool if they would actually put the tutorials at the the uh double flip buttons or whatever instead of going through the menu and playing like choose a tutorial that way you can go through it maybe it could be voice narrated something like that I think that that is sorely needed especially for home users because yeah there is some things that that people don't understand but again that goes back to you run up to your bartender and you go turn that [ __ ] music down I got to hear that [ __ ] I gota learn how to play this pinball game this ping pong game Pinball R sets are just a weird thing though because yeah people want deeper games there's one section that wants deeper games and they should be deeper because of the price of them you don't want something super shallow who wants to pay 10 grand for something and you're done within 2 days then you got another group of people that they're not going to buy the game to in box but they want the game to be super easy to understand and they're just going to go play it on location like that's what they like some games are like that some games aren't but to me it's just like people just have to understand that when you play Pinball you don't necessarily have to know everything yeah you don't I mean no you definitely don't no well look at it this way like how many people are getting to a wizard mode during a game I mean everybody right not too many so people won't experience that and that's the whole reason why a rule set like Venom exists that's the whole reason why we put a rule set at the very beginning of a game for somebody to actually see so it's not like there's a bunch of people out there studying how to beat a wizard mode like it's just not realistic you know I I just I just think people people just need to enjoy pinball the way that they want to enjoy it and just stop psyching themselves out like it's just pinball just have fun like attach it to something else that's the big thing have fun yeah it's just weird they're like I can't have fun because I don't know what I'm doing and I've and I've I've interviewed a handful of pinball designers and the thing that always that I always ask him is like how do you like how do you do like I think it's an impossible task to write a code set that pleases the Carl D'Angelos of the world that can that want super crazy mult all that craziness and a complete novice that they can step up and have a good time like it is how do you how do you find that balance and I think Dwight himself Travis is gone Dwight himself hi Tom had freaking Beauty thank you so Dwight did Monsters Dwight did monsters and monsters was specifically it was supposed to be a a an easy to understand like rule set and they got they people laid into them for it so a Venom is the exact opposite of like let's try something that's very different than all other pinball games out there like you can't you can't please everybody right here's the here's the funny part about monsters though I guarantee you during that time frame if you ask somebody if somebody said oh this R set's super shallow and they're bagging on it and everything yeah if you ask them like okay well tell me what each mode does or tell me how to actually get through this game they wouldn't be able to tell you it's just a lot of people just get in their heads at something's a certain way now that's not to say that monsters isn't a shallow rule set compared to everything else yeah but that's the way it was meant to be so with this I I just think the other thing to consider is that if your skill set only takes you so far you're not going to be able to enjoy a rule set to its fullest sure just not you're going to be fighting against the pen the entire time yeah and that's I think a lot of people experience that they don't want to admit it that they're having that rough of a time so it just becomes well I just don't understand the rule set it's like no Larry maybe your live catches are just off you know Larry yeah but there's just there's nothing wrong with setting your game up in a home environment so that you can play the game easier too oh yeah no that's what people should do EX for you and me Travis but that's exactly yeah definitely never done that I've never made a game easier for myself well honestly shame I would tell people that are complete that are novices are new to pinball and we talked about this before there's nothing wrong with setting your game to five to 10 balls make the game something you it's your game make sure you're having fun with it I did it on Rush abely made I made Rush easier in the code because I think at some point they did a code change that made it harder and I remember making a comment and Ry was like Joel just set it to home mode or easy mode nobody's winning a world championship in their basement like you're not playing game n OFA against johanes just s the damn game to 10 balls set everything to easy and Joel out that's all you got to do so I will say I mean I had Godfather here and Godfather the code in that is so much more complex than hypthetically hypothe no I'm just saying it is I'm talking to Tom we're talking about something else but no yes Godfather yes if you want to talk about complex code yes let's talk something and I've experienced that with a lot of the jjp games where I think the games really are designed for people that are ready to really learn their home use environment ready to learn and people dogged on on Toy Story 4 because they thought it was too shallow but Toy Story 4 had a much more approachable code or rule set than Guns and Roses or Godfather and it's just you can't you can't have it all but I'm I will say after spending a lot of time on Venom I'm really enjoying Venom like I like it a lot and there's something about that XP system uh between 09 one and 0.92 uh they made grindle and null harder I had already beat null three times IID beat him it would take me it was under an hour and 30 minutes and it was like in the 40ish level range is all I needed to that's but people that listen to this or see my stream they know my skill set but I think I've only beaten all once Joel well Travis did it in two times in one game show um I didn't say that no you a video of it you post think I I think your skill set at pinball has improved dramatically over the past two years and you I wish and I'll say this so you know don't don't let this go to your head because I don't like saying nice [ __ ] about you ever but I think if people watch like what excites me about your pinball play is that people can actually watch it over a long period of time and see the Improvement and your proof of what happen if you play a game consistently and you ask the right questions y that's what happens now it doesn't mean like all of a sudden we're going to get you out there and take 88 at C or anything like that let me let me find that Abe Clips uh YouTube that's the best video no it there is there is genuine truth to that though of like every every game that I stream or borrow from Zach it's there there is improve like things improve over time and normally my plan with streaming a game is first stream I just want to do it on my own I want to see how much of the game I can disc like find on my own and I want to try to find the shots like you guys have the ability to find the shots on almost any pin within like four flips of a flipper I don't know how you do it but I can't find shots that fast so called having no life Joel ah got right so but then stream two I am fortunate yes that to have a designer like an Eric Minor or Dwight Sullivan to be on there and explain the game you know I've played the game enough now that I actually feel like I have good questions on can you clarify this can you explain that that is super helpful and I'm glad that I am in a position where I can have those conversations and share those conversations to hopefully educate anybody watching me I love it even more that Travis had to watch that video of me streaming to learn how to play game God bless Dwight Sullivan for just sting through that and trying to coach you through bricking all those posts no I loved it God's work over there at Stern um I I won't forget yeah there was one point where I was I went to ask a question he goes hey Joel just just focus for a second try to beat grle like you wanted me to stop talking just to try to anyways I love you know you're talking a lot when Dwight's like yeah Dwight is telling BR settle down buddy bro take a breath right yeah yeah so it was great it was great and I'm glad I could have that and I know Carrie called me out on that on the video you know it's not like all of us can have the the designer of the game coach us through and I get that I understand but there's a YouTube video out there there's plenty of information out there and you can either take that information and do what you want with it or you don't do it at all and then you just live with the repercussions of that or the consequences or just the reality that you create around you I mean it's like anything else we do anything else in life we don't put any effort towards learning it we just want to know it yeah how's that going to work like it's it's like my kids whenever they come back home and they're just like I don't understand this in class all right Carter have you read your textbook no dad I haven't H like okay Well's start you maybe you want yeah let's start there and then we can go but that you know that's cool if you don't want to read then don't read just play the game and then I guarantee after 15 20 games you're going to start figuring out what's going on yeah like that's pinball that's what you do the the only time that that's really frustrating though is if the layout of the game is super hard because then you're playing the game 15 20 times you feel like you barely did anything because you just keep training I don't think Venom is that case Venom the layout is relatively forgiving and the ball yeah yeah so it's wants the ball to go to your flipper you should be able to discover this game easier than others but I just we one of the questions we're going to address later on is what are our favorite games and I think that's that's going to tell a lot about us because that's that's one thing I love about pinball is there are there's such a variety of games out there that it's some people are very attracted to very easy to understand rule sets and they may be you know that's where a game like a Medieval Madness or something that really screams to them oh my gosh now I see why Dwight said what he said I can't hold that pose anymore we should do that right now we go right into it hell yeah I mean I don't see it on the production notes or anything Ain number four in my head but it wasn't number two uh your mom okay

“I just think people people just need to enjoy pinball the way that they want to enjoy it and just stop psyching themselves out like it's just pinball just have fun”

Travis@ 29:31 — Core philosophy about player enjoyment vs. competition

“if your skill set only takes you so far you're not going to be able to enjoy a rule set to its fullest sure just not you're going to be fighting against the”

Tom@ 31:17 — Concluding observation about limitations of player skill impacting game enjoyment

Frisco Pinballperson

The Pinball Network (TPN)organization

product_concern: Extended critique of Venom's 32-page ruleset PDF being artificially padded with spacing and formatting, potentially making players avoid reading it despite comprehensive content.

high · Tom: 'it is literally like the way I would write my papers in high school to try to get away with making the font as big as possible'; discussion of 'triple spaced' document with 'full page of DJ mixer stuff'

gameplay_signal: Hosts discuss how complete novices struggle with Venom's fast-lock system and character selection, proposing LCD tutorial solutions with voice narration or celebrity endorsement.

medium · Tom: 'What if they had you know Joel or Travis on there and say hey this is you know I'm yada y person this is how you play Venom' and 'have Jack danger like hey this Jack danger I'm going to show you how to play'

sentiment_shift: Community divided on Venom reception: some LE buyers and enthusiasts (Hottie Frisco) love the game, while content creators with large platforms (Carrie Hardy) publish negative reviews, creating perception of fan disagreement.

high · Joel: 'there have been more and more people have played Venom and it has been entertaining watching People's thoughts'; discussion of split between LE buyers loving it and Carrie Hardy's critical video

product_strategy: Hosts note Stern's Spike 2 platform enables tutorial features and LCD content previously impossible, suggesting untapped potential for teaching new players.

medium · Tom: 'I think Stern can do that technically now if they wanted to because Carl has all those little mini screens that goes up for him right'

content_signal: Jason (Pinball Party) departed The Pinball Network to create independent content. Described as amicable separation with no bad blood.

high · Joel: 'Jason pinball party pinball party uh has officially left uh tpn um no bad blood no problem at all but he left so definitely check make sure CU he's still making episodes'

gameplay_signal: Hosts argue that different player skill levels will experience Venom very differently, and this is acceptable/expected. Not all players need to access all game depth.

high · Travis: 'if you're a casual right or you just play and you don't play in tournaments then yeah you yeah you don't need to know how to maximize your points'; Tom: 'if your skill set only takes you so far you're not going to be able to enjoy a rule set to its fullest'

market_signal: Multiple references to LE buyers being enthusiastic about Venom, suggesting strong secondary market and collector interest despite mixed casual reception.

medium · Joel: 'I've seen some that are really good you know there's a lot of Le buyers out there that are like this game's awesome they love the way it shoots'