35:21too yeah uh so so but at that stage with that announcement it was telegraphed that things were not going right so every decision that still took in after that point is going to be examined under a microscope by the community because it's like okay well you said you needed to recapitalize you said that your Jus in Time Manufacturing wasn't working anymore so how are you getting stuff done and of course they never really said anything after that point I don't think the company said anything publicly after that point period so and and communication with them even as an authorized dealer for him was was it was it was tough uh towards the end here especially in the last year uh and without boring people with the details of of my business aspect as a provider for him I I will say that there was a time that we had a couple of the fathom games that had some Playfield issue stuff and it's been discussed on pinside and on the forums and social media there were some Playfield issue warping kind of stuff and we were attempting to take care of that and we were told one thing from haggas oh popul it's going to be populated Playfield as they should you know and we you know uh Greg who runs our tech department warranty department he worked with them for months after months after months of them saying Oh it's going to happen it's going to H and then finally we just made I made an executive decision and said no I I I don't believe it's going to happen I I don't know if it's going to happen but I'm tired tired of our customers waiting so I'll [ __ ] eat now this is before you know I knew I was lose all this Mone this before you knew you were going to refund everyone including people that had already canel their deposit six months ago after six plus months of waiting for a resolution for something I said no we're not doing it so we issued again money out of my pocket we issued full refunds for some games um and I finally was I was able to and I never got what I was promised but I did find a solution that cost me a little bit more money but good games now but so everybody was made whole on that but then whenever the communication still slipped and then it was hey just want to give you guys a i this was proba spring I want to give you guys a heads up that once centaurs do uh start shipping and stuff we're probably going to do bundles of 10 So Paid in Full of 10 and uh oh wait wow that's interesting so my response to them was strong assertive essentially in a roundabout way but it's still professional because it's business I said um you had a really it's a major issue but minor in the grand scheme of things minor financially uh to fix these fathom issues that we've had with customers and you [ __ ] couldn't figure out how to do that so I had to fix the problem for you and it for you to think I will pay anything for for 10 game like with all due respect uh I I think we're not on the same page here or you're mistaking me for a dumb business person which I am not so I was stirring with them on that or with the idea of restructuring and and finding some seed money or investor money Mone or thinking that I would be open to assisting with finding said that's oh wow I mean I it's just I again I'm not a I'm not a business person but it doesn't seem normal to me to turn to your distributor Network and ask them to help you find investors well if they thought maybe what that you'd invest in it possibly who knows I don't know I don't know but uh present it as part of a team to try to you know uh opportunity did you explore it would you gotten to been in charge I would never explore that and what I explained to them was that poor ship is on a different planet not only has it sailed like there is nothing like if you can't fix a little minor issue then I would never think about assisting with a bigger picture plan uh so that was one the last that was the last communication really that I had with them saying essentially I need I need actions uh and until you have actions like leave me alone I've lost enough money at this point with your company and you know the foreshadowing is I lost a hell of a lot more once they went under so and a lot of those details will be discussed further We There is a new Carrie Hardy series called unboxing the truth I had that's that's a pretty good name because I'm boxing the truth uh because I like car's work and I watched the first episode and it's [ __ ] it's good it's it's really good um even if you're not interested in the ha spinball thing it's just it's interesting content and I I give him a lot of credit for creating good entertaining content um so he talked to two Haus pinball customers about their experiences um and he he very much adds a lot of dramatization a lot of um um reenactments not reenactment re damn it carry had like the DAT line uh walking while filming kind like he just it was it was uh it was very entertaining for me I loved it so I'm looking forward to subsequent episodes and listener you never know maybe one uh with myself on there as well uh coming soon but so a lot of mess over it at haggas pinball I did want to correct some information out there just objectively trying to um to clarify some things that are incorrect there were some reports whenever this liquidation thing came out uh there was um they sent to us creditors people who were owed money um very formal from the Liquidators here's what everybody has owed um here's paperwork you got to fill out to submit if this is incorrect here's you know and it included every every single person that was owed a penny their address all this stuff uh the problem was that and then uh so the threads and the hobbyist forms and stuff they got their hands on this oh yeah and they did good did a good job of De identifying some of the information and bundling together cuz my my document had every single person but when they presented it online it had just like dealers and then a total amount uh but one of the forms said that flipping out pinball was owed $60,000 Australian dollars M that's a lot that's a shitload of money tennis that is a load of money that makes my pee PE soft like that that that hurts that really hurts um sadly I would be happy if that's what it was uh because objectively what I submitted to the liquidation of being owed um and this is just being owed Centaur based stuff was 91,5 00 Australian dollars which comes out to around 60 61,000 USD or US dollars so that's a lot worse that's a really a lot worse there Dennis oh I laughed I got a laugh He Just gota Gotta Laugh um so for somebody like me a small business that is a lot of money um but it is what it is it's [ __ ] life but I just wanted to clarify not for sympathy anything just for clarification like that information was I wish it was right but it was wrong so I can only imagine that other numbers were probably skewed as well uh maybe they'll update those but that's not taking into consideration the the money we lost with some of the fathoms making that right uh so we're had a lot of money with that other thing that I saw reports this was I believe a nap article and this is respectively just correcting some of the information in there it said something to the extent of it was written in a way that said basically it was doing the timeline it said the timeline was um when centur came out then flipping out became the the sole us dealer coin taker uh distribution was the former US dealer but coin taker cut ties with haggus essentially saying that they seen the writing on the wall so they cut ties so then somebody had to sell these products so flipping out stepped in so that is objectively incorrect information um I don't even know where that information come from because prior to Centaur going for sale um there was a handful of us dealers Distributors for haggus products I myself was selling fathoms um we sold quite a few fathoms so I there was a lot of dealers um a lot there was probably five to 10 dealers so a lot of people are selling fathom um so it wasn't it wasn't a sole dealer so coin taker was n the only distributor pre Centaur is what you're saying and the the only evidence and objective knowledge that I have is that whenever centaur was about to come out I had a meeting with a requested meeting from haggus and met with Damian at tpf of 202 three I guess have been 2023 yeah yeah he was there in 2023 so met with him and at the request of him um and at that time they had asked if I would have interest in they were consolidating their distribution channels and they just want to have one US dealer one Canadian dealer one European dealer uh if I would be interested I is in flipping out pimball would be interested in being the sole us dealer whether they were sub dealers and stuff but the the sole us dealer and after discussion we accepted that um so haggas cut ties with whatever dealers they still had um because they were just consolidating so I don't think it was like a it just a business thing uh so I to my knowledge nobody opted out um seen writing on the wall or anything like that so just for clarification sake um so yeah there's that uh oh also update uh for those who care prior to all this liquidation stuff what was about a month ago myself and Nicole flipping out finally said you know what like we're going to offer people refunds even though they haven't called at quits um and we said we'd offer refunds uh you know if if they went under this year we're going to go ahead and offer refunds or short credit or whatever people want to do uh because this doesn't feel good but at the date of this we've already refunded everybody's money that wanted refunds and um for anybody who wants credit either was credited for a different product or has a standing credit with us so um yeah we we've made whole every one of our customers so we can proudly say that with flipping out pinball not one of our customers who ordered a fathom or who ordered a centaur or out any uh any money not a penny so we're proud of that so that tag us that's what happens when people try to make pinball for those newcomers welcome uh let this be an example of one that people still won't learn from and will continue to happen over and over again well you know one of the things that stood out to me which which I should have brought up in the whole you know the early discussion where you were mentioning about what was going on when should they when did they see the writing on the wall I think one of the things that really stood out with the report coming out of the Liquidators wasn't so much the amounts owed to the Distributors and such even though that's obviously a very large and thus impressive number but there was no record of an escrow account yeah they mentioned it too and the escrow right escrow I believe the escrow concept was proposed as a method for people who were going to be like their they had that club membership remember where they people would pay Mone yeah yeah and I think that money was originally advertised as being kept in escro m and and it was weird too because dealers could still do the ticket because we had I think one or two ticket series ticket holders um so refund technically it would have escrow's one those things because people like love the word escro because it sounds they halfly use that word yeah right right because it's supposed to be a third party a third party would hold the money but it should still like be in the asset list I would think but yeah no one can find the like they if you gave the money like one of the places there where I buy and sell wristwatches uses an escrow service so the the site is the escrow I don't send money directly to the dealer and when I sell something they don't send the money directly to me the person has to receive the product first the escro service gets uh confirmation of the delivery and then the escro service releases the funds that's we do it so um yeah I I've noticed that that term gets used a lot in pinball and I think it's used as a as a security blanket when it's untrue it's not really escrow if if uh you're like like when coin taker for Dutch pinball held the funding to give to Dutch that's like an escrow Arrangement because they're the third party were they selling the games up would it have been an escrow well if they were the customer like it would be an escrow if they weren't selling the product well but the the issue was what they what they had indicated was that they would not give the money the final full payment to Dutch until the game was ready so coint taker was functioning as escrow to comfort the customer that their C the customer's money wasn't going to be sent initially to Dutch pinball before the game it's all semantics I guess I could have technically said that too like I offered an escrow because their money technically never went to haggus flipping out's money went to ha you know like it's it's murky yeah no I think in but in your instance this normally involving full payment yes yes yeah but normally the whole escro thing is involving full amounts versus the deposit model so there are a lot of people who paid in full to haggus who bought directly from haggus I will say back in December January we had one series ticket holder that was getting over bivion that haggus requested full payment on Dennis and they submitted it uh yeah never got their game so it wasn't just the deposits that I had to refund people we had had one paid in full or Oblivion and that oh I didn't I didn't know the Distributors dealt with the season ticket holders they did like later yeah they did and it sucks too in retrospect I was trying to be a good business partner when the customer initially bought a fathom from haggas direct then they wanted the security of flipping out for centaur but they also wanted to do a series ticket uh so haggus allowed them to do a series series ticket for the remaining four through flipping out so uh haggas came to me and said do you know do you want do you want this or do you want us to handle this series ticket and I said it's up to you guys if you guys want me to do it I can uh if you want to stick and they were like that you can just you can keep it and I'm like all right so by me keeping it it was me uh you know having to pay for it whenever it wasn't delivered so you know if I would have just said no you guys can handle it but that's I hope this has taught you an important business lesson to not enter into any new relationships with new pinball that's a lot of people said you know for those that said oh he knew you know that's what he gets for going into relationship with a business Rel and it's not really fair because you know life isn't fair this is business this is business just a business it's calculated risks you win some you lose some you try to win more than you lose um it sucks but would I when people say would you do it over again you know hindsight well I mean why would I lose no but I mean that's [ __ ] would I lose money if I had the nah probably so uh but I could see uh situation like this that I'm more hesitant but I'm still not risk aversive totally in business so yeah [ __ ] like this comes up good opportunities come up you have to weigh the pros versus the cons and you go with it as long as everybody's taken care of at the end of the day that's what matters we'll keep going Chicago gaming company there going to keep going oh boy they're going to keep going so much so that this was a this was a mess of a situation but of course it is a Chicago gaming company well weeks back I started getting messages from customers hey I want one of those new XL color displays that they used to be making for Medieval Madness with the with the speaker lighting and the the big old long extended animated colored freaking awesome accessory um and I said okay well I mean we're taking a list whenever resell them again they're like oh no they're selling them now like no they're not oh yeah pinside said they are [ __ ] pinside so I go on pinside and look and they oh yeah cgc selling them I'm like well first off cgc doesn't even sell direct so that's no they haven't reached out to dealers no not all this is [ __ ] and I even said that online like no you know they haven't reached out to dealers so no this is all just and uh people no no no it's true so I call Chicago gaming hey know um is there some truth to like what's going on they're like yeah yeah we're uh building them again I'm like [ __ ] how you going to sell a product and not tell your dealers number one they don't need to they're selling direct right number two I thought you guys weren't selling direct like what is that surprise surprise surprise you oh my God so I was like oh my God okay so I got some on or and they I was like well okay I'm eating crow there yeah you guys are correct they are selling these XL displays again for uh I thought it was for medieval Madness but I was talking to cgc and they said now this is this is from cgc they said that uh when they came out with these XEL you know what I'm talking to listener Dennis you know what I'm talking about this these XL displays oh yeah yeah know yeah they came out with medieval manness the Royal Edition but they also sold se's and Classics during this uh oh hell this has got to be six years ago or five years ago this was the Super this is before they knew like what what a big hit the XL would be yes so they they sell these accessories to make your original Le or original remake of medieval Manish just like these so you can buy the topper as an accessory an XL display as an accessory even the RGB lighting kit paying the ass to install but you could buy it as a kit all as an accessory uh and they sold very well not initially not so well but then the to topper Market hit and everything hit and everybody wanted these things they have been gone and and unable to purchase for two or three years people have been yearning for them um people have been really wanting them so they're coming out with the XL colge play but cgc told me they didn't Market it they marketed only for MMR when years back they said technically these work for attack for Mars and Monster Bash Too yeah so for individuals with the classic versions that don't come standard with this XL color display you can put it on your classic editions remakes of of Chico gaming company's uh Monster Bash remake and attack from Mars so that's really cool so they're shipping now they're in stock and they plan on producing the king of pain Toppers and RGB kits uh later on here in Q4 which then brings up the wind's MMR coming out is it coming out people I don't know why people are still questioning whether or not they're making medieval mantis remake again we have screamed it we have said it everybody said yes they are making Medieval Madness REM again when they would love to start in December but it's cgc so I think February March if I had to guess I think it'll be q1 of 2025 so they are making again I'm going to pose this question to you Dennis as we're looking at all of the in for the patreon members the club members we've already reviewed all of the stuff coming out uh the schedule game releases that's a there's a lot of new had a lot of big titles MMR another run this is like the third run of medieval manage remake if not more does cgc end up selling more in this run of MMR than the total number of we're gonna go through the list of the next Stern Cornerstone Ellie uh tricky that's probably a thousand right right I'm assuming it'll be a thousand so no yeah I'm gonna I'll say no as well simply because they've already run MMR before this was a first time then I'd say yes easily so that one that one's kind of easy what about the next JJ PC yes oh so we know that typically they like to put a thousand count on that CE correct and they made all of them an El John but so you're banking on it maybe not being a big hit uh not so much that I mean it's it's the price Delta between the MMR and the CE is a big motivator of it too okay yeah maybe even the biggest motiv sure okay so you're going know on that on that I would