Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Ep 82: Consolation Round Pinball Podcast

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 19m·analyzed·Oct 22, 2024
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Consolation Round covers Haggis fallout and Pinball Expo machine impressions.

Summary

Jeff Teolis and Ryan C record "Consolation Round," a standalone podcast episode in place of the usual Final Round due to Marty Robbins' absence following the Haggis Pinball collapse. The hosts discuss the Haggis situation at length, defending Marty against blame and reflecting on the broader impact of the company's failure on the pinball industry. They then pivot to covering machines they played at Pinball Expo, including detailed impressions of Metallica Remastered, Alice in Wonderland (Dutch Pinball), Space Hunt (Hexa), and ABBA.

Key Claims

  • Marty Robbins lost money from Haggis and neither host nor community blames him for the company's failure

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis and Ryan C discuss Marty's situation extensively, with Jeff stating he lost more than most people and defending him against online criticism

  • Metallica Remastered includes 22 songs, live footage, new rules including '72 Seasons' mode, ball save on both sides, and fixes to the 'Borg'd' issue from the original

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis played Metallica Remastered at Stern factory and described the changes in detail

  • Only 25 Metallica Remastered Limited Editions are allocated to Australia

    high confidence · Ryan C mentions this number after his distributor told him he couldn't get on the LE list

  • Alice in Wonderland (Dutch Pinball) is based on a John Papadiuk layout with modifications by an Amsterdam-based designer

    high confidence · Jeff states he interviewed the designer on Pinball Profile and notes Papadiuk's influence on the layout

  • Alice in Wonderland costs approximately 23,000 Australian dollars through Australian distributors

    medium confidence · Ryan C mentions the pricing in Australian dollars and notes it doesn't directly translate from USD

  • Haggis liquidation documents cited negative media commentary about the company as one factor in its failure

    medium confidence · Jeff Teolis received a letter from liquidation company listing reasons for problems, with 'negative commentary by pinball media' mentioned as a factor

  • Ryan C owns a Haggis Fathom order and eventually refunded money to a buyer after Haggis collapsed

    high confidence · Ryan describes his decision to refund roughly $1,000 to someone who purchased his order spot but never received the machine

  • Space Hunt is a Hexa Pinball (French company) machine priced at 8,900 euro for Classic and 11,000 euro for LE

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis provides exact pricing after playing the game at Pinsound booth at Expo

Notable Quotes

  • “if you still think Marty had anything to do with this, you're probably not a very intelligent person and maybe even a fuckhead”

    Jeff Teolis @ early episode — Strong defense of Marty Robbins against online blame for Haggis collapse; sets tone for episode's Haggis discussion

  • “I remember when it happened... I ended up maybe five minutes after the documents got published played a game of... pinball with someone who lost approximately twenty thousand dollars and he was in a state of shock”

    Ryan C @ Haggis discussion section — Personal testimony to the real human impact of Haggis failure; humanizes the financial losses

  • “The game shoots amazing... They fixed that on Metallica. You don't get Borg'd. How did they do it? Just a slight changing of where the posts are and stuff.”

    Jeff Teolis @ Metallica Remastered section — Specific technical improvement in Metallica Remastered that addresses a known issue in the original

  • “don't even send a really easy email to your distributor to say hey i'm a big Metallica fan and i've got an LE and i'd like to be considered”

    Ryan C @ Metallica section — Self-deprecating humor about trying to secure a Metallica Remastered LE; reveals scarcity and collector FOMO

  • “It's bizarre that this game in some form has survived... That was 10 years ago, I think. And here we go. We have it ready to purchase.”

    Ryan C @ Alice in Wonderland section — Reflects on Alice in Wonderland's long development history (originally seen on Pinside 10 years ago) and its eventual release

  • “I am a John Papadiuk pinball machine fanboy. I love his games with the exception of Star Wars Episode I.”

    Jeff Teolis @ Alice in Wonderland section — States Jeff's design preferences and credibility as a game analyst; relevant context for Alice evaluation

  • “I'd made money off somebody who never got their product... I refunded it.”

    Ryan C @ Haggis/distributor discussion — Demonstrates ethical response to profiting from Haggis situation; illustrates secondary market complications

Entities

Marty RobbinspersonJeff TeolispersonRyan CpersonHaggis PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyDutch Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong pushback against online blame directed at Marty Robbins for Haggis collapse; both hosts defend him and critique 'keyboard warriors' on Pinside for unfair scapegoating

    high · Jeff's explicit defense: 'if you still think Marty had anything to do with this, you're probably not a very intelligent person and maybe even a fuckhead.' Ryan echoes support and sympathy for Marty's situation.

  • ?

    business_signal: Market has become more cautious toward new pinball manufacturer startups following Haggis and prior failures (Deep Root, Highway); Australian startup Ballerama Pinball unable to secure funding

    high · Ryan: 'It should be hard. So that Australian company, they're not going to go forward? I mean, I don't believe they have enough money to do it themselves, and they want people to... people are more cautious now than they were before it will be harder for a pinball company to start up but that's okay.'

  • ?

    product_launch: Metallica Remastered officially on display and playable at Pinball Expo with production underway; limited allocation (25 LEs for Australia confirmed)

    high · Jeff played Metallica Remastered at Stern factory Thursday; Ryan confirmed only 25 LEs coming to Australia; Jeff noted 'subtle changes' and 'big rules and code changes' including '72 Seasons' mode

  • ?

    collector_signal: Severe scarcity driving secondary market activity and FOMO; Metallica Remastered LE demand exceeds supply significantly (Ryan unable to secure pre-order despite trying); users buying originals in anticipation of remaster to flip

    high · Ryan: 'I know four people in my vicinity, my area, that over the last nine months sold their Metallica with the speculation that, oh, this might be coming.' Ryan also describes being unable to get on LE list despite connections.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.237

0:00
What? A podcast? What's going on? Well, don't get your hopes up, okay? This is not Final Round. We're releasing it on Final Round, only because it's a place to distribute this podcast. But our good friend Marty Robbins isn't here on this episode. He will be on the future. So we're calling this Consolation Round. And to prove this is an inferior podcast, yes, you've got myself, Jeff Teels, but it is not Final Round. We're calling it Consolation Round. But it's not just me. We've got one of the hosts of Australia's biggest podcast show ever. You know him. You love him from Jesse Jay's Pinball Adventure. Let's say hi to Ryan C. There he is. Hey, Ryan. How are you? I knew there was a stitch-up coming, Jeff. Jesus Christ.
0:53
Yeah. Hey, Jesse Jay just moved back to Melbourne. so maybe there is a revival there happening. Maybe we can start the podcast again. Yeah, yeah. I'm going to hold my breath for that.
1:07
We'll have to see what happens. You know what's really funny? The last episode we recorded, we had an audio clip of Raymond Davison singing The Barenaked Lady's Story. I can't remember which one it's called. And he sent us a recording, and it's a three-minute-long recording of him singing Chickadee China, the Chinese chicken, and we never played it. and they're like, don't worry, next episode we won't play it. Well, that's funny you should talk about that because Marty and I may have recorded an episode of Final Round and obviously that didn't happen because when we recorded it shortly afterwards, the guffawful with Haggis happened and I'm not going to not avoid that, but here's a couple of things. One, I talk to Marty every single week. so that if you're wondering how that's going great he's doing fine obviously there were some tough times there when this first happened but i'm not going to speak on behalf of marty marty will do that on this podcast on final round not consolation round till he'll do that on final round the other thing too is final round is not a haggis podcast it never has been so it just happened to be that he worked there so don't expect us to be all haggis because we're not this is a podcast about movie reviews and killing people. We mentioned pinball once in a while. That's it. But Marty will, I'll let Marty speak on behalf of himself. The movie review episode was your finest episode, Jeff, just letting you know. Can I tell you, I've had a lot of people say we want more of that. So I'm hoping Marty has used this time to see a lot of movies because we've got to talk. Anyway, expect Marty in the near future. But again, not putting any words in his mouth. I know that if I went through what Marty did, if it was me and I was working at a dream job, working for a pinball company, and all of a sudden, through no fault of my own or Marty's, the company obviously folds and people are owed money and all that kind of stuff, I'd feel pretty shitty too. I would be. I would be like, oh, maybe I feel like I could have done more, but it wasn't my company to do anything. I wasn't the one taking the money. and that being said, I think of Damien who I've met a bunch of times. I always liked Damien. I was last saw him at TPF in 2023. I saw Fathom, I saw Keltz and it was a good booth there with Aaron from Fast and a few months later, like in June, I put down a deposit for Centaur. I'm not alone. There were others too. There were distributors that did that. So, you know, again, And I want you to remember this when Marty comes back on final round. Remember, both hosts have lost money from Haggis. And you know who I kind of blame? I blame myself. No one held a gun to my head. Not even Marty. No one held a gun to my head and said, you have to buy this. It was something I wanted. And I took the risk. I knew there might be some risk, but I just saw Kelts. And I've been to the factory, and I saw and played Fathom and loved it. And, you know, I wanted them to succeed. So, okay, if this helps, if this deposit helps, get to the next one. And then, of course, you know, we get the message in February that they're repurposing stuff. And you're like, uh-oh, I hope it works. But, you know, my whatever percentage I thought this was going to happen obviously went down, and it went to zero. And I'm sure you hear this too, Ryan. And I hear very, very, very, very, very few people say, Marty should have known better. Marty is partly to blame. And I just went, well, one, he didn't own the company. He didn't have shares. He wasn't that kind of decision maker.

  • “It should be hard... for a pinball company to start up”

    Ryan C @ Haggis/startup discussion — Commentary on industry gatekeeping and market discipline following repeated startup failures

    • Hexa Pinball
    company
    Metallica Remasteredgame
    Alice in Wonderlandgame
    Space Huntgame
    Zach Minneyperson
    Damienperson
    Raymond Davisonperson
    Jerry Thompsonperson
    Lyman Sheetsperson
    John Papadiukperson
    Pinball Expoevent
    Jesse Jay's Pinball Adventuregame|media
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern positioning Metallica Remastered as premium product with meaningful improvements (new art, mechanical features, code enhancements) justifying replacement purchase even for owners of original

    high · Jeff emphasizes improvements (electric chair motion, UV lighting, rule changes, ball save, Borg fix) and encourages original owners to appreciate their machines while praising remaster. Ryan conflicted about downgrading from LE to Premium despite admitting original is now 'very inferior.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Metallica Remastered fixes the 'Borg'd' issue (ball bouncing left out lane via middle post) through subtle post repositioning, indicating iterative design improvement

    high · Jeff: 'When the ball bounces in the left out lane and it's not really saveable because it goes dunk on the middle and jumps out left out lane. They fixed that on Metallica. You don't get Borg'd. How did they do that? Just a slight changing of where the posts are and stuff.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Metallica Remastered adds significant rule depth including new '72 Seasons' mode, opto spinners integrated into existing modes (Crank It Up), and ball save mechanics affecting strategy

    high · Jeff notes '72 Seasons thing being one of the big ones' and 'some balancing still has to happen.' Ryan discusses opto spinner impact on Crank It Up: 'does it spin enough for you to get three [shots]... if you really hit that spinner well'

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Smaller manufacturers (Dutch Pinball, Hexa, European makers) face extended wait times; Alice in Wonderland expected to take significant time; buyers advised to be patient (reference to 2-year Pulp Fiction waits)

    high · Ryan: 'I don't know how long it's going to take to come out. I think that's the part where people are going to have to be really, really patient. Hey, man, I know guys that are waiting two years for their Pulp Fiction.' Advises buying secondhand to avoid risk.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Alice in Wonderland priced differently across regions; Australian pricing (~23,000 AUD) does not directly translate from USD, suggesting regional licensing/distribution markup

    medium · Ryan: 'It's quite expensive in Australia. It doesn't directly translate the USD to Australian dollars like some certain titles do. So it's, I think, 23,000 roughly Australian dollars.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinball Expo featured multiple new releases and limited quantities; Dutch Pinball Alice in Wonderland had longest lines despite only 3 machines present; Stern showcased Metallica Remastered at factory

    high · Jeff: 'Saw a lot of machines, Ryan.' Multiple games discussed as being at Expo. Ryan: 'There were three and they were set up to two balls' for Alice in Wonderland.

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: Haggis Pinball liquidation documents cited 'negative commentary by pinball media' as a factor in company failure, raising questions about media responsibility and influence on vulnerable startups

    medium · Jeff: 'I got a letter the other day from the liquidation company, and it listed the reasons why there were problems... And the last one said something to the effect of negative commentary about the company, which I can only assume was, quote unquote, pinball media.'

  • ?

    community_signal: Secondary market complications highlighted; Ryan's experience refunding a buyer who never received their Fathom machine illustrates moral complexity of flipping orders during company collapse

    high · Ryan describes selling his order spot for ~$1,000 profit, then refunding buyer after Haggis collapsed and buyer never received machine: 'I'd made money off somebody who never got their product. So you refunded it... Yes. I refunded that money.'

    • 5:01
    And that would be like blaming, and it's been said before in other podcasts because we all agree, that would be like blaming Stephen Bowden for the failure of Deep Root. Well, he was marketing. He was doing code. Well, that was his job. He was supposed to promote Deep Root. Marty was supposed to promote Haggis. They're doing the code for the games. Anyway, it's a shame that it happened, but there's some fucking keyboard warriors out there on Pinside that just probably had nothing invested in it but just want to take the shots. And even after knowing all this, all I can say is if you still think Marty had anything to do with this, you're probably not a very intelligent person and maybe even a fuckhead. That's my thought. Your thought, Ryan? um i remember when it happened it was i think i just had a lot of sadness um when they filed those documents i was up in queensland playing pinball and i ended up maybe five minutes after the documents got published played a game of you know a match play game of pinball with someone who lost approximately twenty thousand dollars and he was in a state of shock not a state of shock like you know i'm on the floor but just in in disbelief about what had happened and to kind of be there in that in that moment and get an insight about how these things affect people um kind of really sat with me for a while because as you know and as everyone always says bit of an echo chamber statement people in pimble are really nice sometimes too nice i think for their own good so for people to kind of give their money and I guess the problem is people thought they got or think they got taken advantage of and there were certain lies that were propagated to get people to pay more and I guess that's the problem that I have with the whole situation and it's still unclear with certain people at work and I'm not talking about money about what was said to get that extra bit of money to keep things going. And the frustrating part is I'm not sure how many months on we are now, many months we're not closer to getting those answers about what actually happened and if they were trading insolvent. And like you said, this happens all the time and we have unprecedented access to the pinball hobby and other hobbies don't, like this would happen in any other industry and it's just like, oh well, this Kickstarter failed and oh well. But because we seemingly know these people, when it happened, people wouldn't blud people, like people have to suffer and how dare this person or any other company and how dare they're not allowed to go on holiday, they must suffer. If you've caused people to lose money, then it's, I think, a very weird thing for someone to see someone enjoying their life. They must suffer for the rest of their life. I'm not saying I agree with that or disagree with that. It's just very interesting to watch that kind of unfold online and see people really upset. When you were with that person, when that happened, hey, man, the pain is real. You're like, oh, that's money I probably won't ever see again. I get it. And there are a lot of people, and it's been published who these people are. And I've lost money. Other friends of ours have lost money. Marty has lost money. Marty's lost way more than most people, actually. And it's not pleasant by any means. So that pain is real. And maybe that's the instant reaction to throw daggers at everybody and that guilty by association thing, which I don't believe. But I think hopefully over time you realize, okay, it's unfortunately, whether it's lies, whether it's bad decision-making, a bit of both. From Damien, I think his heart was in the right intention when he started this. I just think he got way over his head, the delays and everything that happened. I got a letter the other day from the liquidation company, and it listed the reasons why there were problems. And of course, the restrictions that your country had with quarantine were a big factor. Supply issues, also a byproduct of COVID. The war in Russia and Ukraine was a factor. And there were a couple other ones. And the last one said something to the effect of negative commentary about the company, which I can only assume was, quote unquote, pinball media. and I'm not saying that's the reason why it went other, but it does, you know, before any money issues, if there were comments negatively about Kelts or Fathom and this and that, yeah, that's going to affect it. And I'm not saying the complaints weren't valid. You know, we knew people that paid for Fathom and it took a long, long time and hopefully they got the machine, but maybe some people didn't. I know people that paid in full for Centaur and didn't get it. And, you know, I guess I'm lucky I only put down a deposit. But, yeah, the pain is real. But at the end of the day, it really should be geared towards the one person who made those decisions. And people make mistakes. I hope it wasn't done as a cash grab because you know there's no end game to it. You know you're going to get caught. You know the funds are going to run out. And who knows what kind of consequences you have. But anyway, it is a sad story, and it's not only sad for the Haggis employees and the people that were trying to purchase the stuff and all the vendors that were involved and the distributors. It's sad for Pinball. I remember talking to Dave Van S., who does a wonderful job with what he's done with Barrels of Fun, and that company is doing very, very well. But they're a new company, and when anything happens, whether it was Deep Root, whether it was this, whether it was Highway before this, It just makes it tougher for everyone else, especially the non-big guys like Stern and JJP. It makes everyone kind of go, I don't want to put my money down on Pinball Brothers or Dutch or anybody. And you go, it's tough. It's too bad. Yeah, I think there's a lot of commentary around people never learn. This keeps on happening again. and you know there's an australian pinball company that tried to to start up ballerama pinball and people rejected the model that they they put forward you know so that company got stuck and nothing has come of it and i don't think anything will will come of it so you know people are more cautious now than they were before it will be harder for a pinball company to start up but that's okay. It should be hard. So that Australian company, they're not going to go forward?
    12:01
    I mean, I don't believe they have enough money to do it themselves, and they want people to. Because there's a big void in the market right now. There's a need for, say, an Alice in Wonderland machine, because we could use one of those. Good segue, Jeff. Good segue. No, we'll get to that. Anyway, Marty will be back when it is right for him, but again, keep in mind the guy kind of lost his job, lost his dream and stuff. So if he wants to take a little hiatus, we're going to allow that so you get the consolation round in the interim. And we're actually recording this. It's Saturday night, the weekend of Expo, and I was at Expo on Thursday and Friday, Sunday for you. So that's the timeline of this recording. But it should be released soon because I'm doing a little traveling the following week, so I want to get this out while it's fresh and hot. And there's a lot of things at Expo going on. Saw a lot of machines, Ryan. You start final round by hitting the scoop. How do you start consolation round, Jeff?
    13:01
    I don't know, but let me go play a home-pin game and some thought will come to mind. Player one, you're up.
    13:12
    Oh, good callback to head to... Well, you know, I can't do final round without Marty, and I won't do final round. That would be like fucking doing head-to-head without the two of you. Who would think of doing something like that?
    13:27
    I don't know. There was a lot of episodes. That was a good chunk. Anyway, we love you, Joe. But hey, man, it wasn't head-to-head. It was head-near-head? I don't know.
    13:40
    Just the tip. So, a lot of machines. Where do we start? Pick one. There were several.
    13:49
    I want to talk about Metallica. Okay. Metallica Remastered. So I will give you a heads up that I know four people in my vicinity, my area, that over the last nine months sold their Metallica with the speculation that, oh, this might be coming. Kudos to you that did that because you're going to love Metallica Remastered. I played it. I went to Stern on Thursday. I know the factory tour was on Friday, but you know how big I am, right? Yeah, I feel you. Red carpet and stuff like that. And I allowed other people, too. It wasn't just me. But I got to play it and saw Ray Day, saw Seth, and talked to him, to Gomez, to Borg. Jerry Thompson was there. By the way, congratulations, Jerry, on your Pinball Expo Hall of Fame induction. Well deserved. The game shoots amazing. So here are some subtle differences. Obviously, you can see the physical ones, the artwork, the electric chair actually moves, the UV light is wicked. So if you like that in Stranger Things, you're going to love it in Metallica. But subtle changes, there's actually some big rules and code changes, the 72 seasons thing being one of the big ones. And some balancing still has to happen, but there's 22 songs, there's live footage. The gameplay itself, you've heard the term, oh, I got borg'd. Do you know what that means? When the ball bounces in the left out lane and it's not really saveable because it goes dunk on the middle and jumps out left out lane. They fixed that on Metallica. You don't get borg'd. How did they do that? Just a slight changing of where the posts are and stuff. Oh, and if that's not enough, there's ball save on both sides. The gameplay is long, but it's fun. It's so good. I, listen, I don't need to tell you. And, and part of the reason of doing this podcast is it's just a gentle reminder that you're listening right now to Australia's greatest, most efficient player of all time. It's undisputed. It's a fact. Just suck it up. It's me. All right.
    16:01
    And, uh, and you were there to, you were there to witness it. Dick up in hand. Anyway, I played just one ball of it and you think, oh, how do you get a good feel of it? I fucking got to crank it up. All right. You know who I am anyway. And so I got a good feel of it. And the reason I stopped after one is like, okay, there's a lot of people waiting, and I just want to let other people. After a couple hundred million, I was like, all right, someone else can get in there. Just plunge my extra balls, whatever. But the game is so fucking good. The flow is great. I mean, I have always said Metallica to me. Still, if I got to pick one game, it's always been my favorite CERN game, code-wise. We're talking Lyman code. and now you've added two big elements to the code and again the ball save and the slight changes, the features. Opto spinners, Jeff, you miss opto spinners and one of the modes in all of pinball is crank it up, specifically the second one where you're hitting switch hits to get that crank it up bonus and maybe it's like 15 switch hits for each hit and normally you shoot the orbit, I usually shoot the left orbit because I've got that shot dialed in and the ball will divert into the pop bumpers. You get a random amount of hits. And if it really stays in the pop-ups for a long time, you're going to get two shots per flip, you know, two bonuses. But if you manage to start Justice for All, Lady Justice mode, the ball will orbit all the way around without hitting a combo. And it's almost guaranteed you get two cash outs per shot. per shot and if you have double scoring it's almost like four shots but now with the opto spinners i'm thinking does it spin enough for you to get three you know if you really hit that spinner well i slept on this jeff i mean like everyone else you kind of hear rumors and you think it's coming and in my head i guess that that ego that part of me said what could they possibly do to make this game better it's already close to perfect in your brain and they could actually fuck it up by including an lcd screen or changing the artwork like there's there's so many different ways that they could fuck this up so don't sell your um italica in advance don't even get on the list ryan don't even don't even send a really easy email to your distributor to say hey i'm a big italica fan and i've got an le and and i'd like to be considered and then i woke up the other day and saw Metallica and like everyone else my jaw kind of dropped because I'm like okay they've nailed it they've made this game that everyone loves even better and you need one and I wrote that email and the distributor came back to me and said in very nice terms you're an idiot Ryan there's only 25 coming to Australia that limited editions and you don't have your name on it because there's many people that are in front of the line yeah are you behind jesse jay i was right behind jesse jay i know i can get a premium but i mean it's a bit of a how do you go down from an le to a premium even if the premium is is you know has more features better than le i i can't do it don't be a fucking snob don't be an le guy there's 500 of them great if you get one there's nothing wrong with premiums there's nothing wrong with pros there are no pros for this edition, but in general, like, get the premium. Well... Suck it up. I can play the premium at someone else's house. I can play the alley at somebody else's house. Like if I going to plonk down stupid amounts of money I going to have the best one And Stern knows this Stern knows that there are certain people that have my mindset and it hard to change it So no I will not get the premium and sell my limited edition, even though my limited edition is inferior. It is very inferior. I'm saying that out loud. No, if you have the original, whether it's a pro premium or the master puppets or whatever you've got, it's great artwork. It's a great game. It's still the greatest Stern game to me that's ever been made. and crank it up is probably the big reason. Risk-reward, single-ball wizard mode, it's very unique. So you're going to enjoy the one you've got and had for years. You're going to love the other one too. So there are no losers in any of those games.
    20:27
    There aren't. No, I'm not saying that I don't have a great pinball machine. I'm very aware that I have an amazing pinball machine, and the fact that Lyman Sheets coded in his name with us is not lost on me. And I know that Raymond will modify the new code just enough to add a little sprinkle and some special sauce on there, but leave what made that game as amazing as everyone. You're making it sound like, you know, I want to watch my favorite AFL match on the big screen TV and I'm going to go to my buddy's house and he's got a 100-inch TV, or I can watch it on mine and all I've got is a black and white 12-inch fucking antenna TV. It's not night and day like that. It's just a little polished, a little nice and fun. We'll get back to Metallica in a second. There are other games. So you name a game, I'll name a game because I played that. Marty's going to love this. Guess what game I played at Expo that I didn't even know was going to be there. Predator. Predator was not there, but... Predator was there. I'm looking at a picture right now. Predator was there. I didn't play it. I didn't see it. But I did play, and it was kind of hidden in Pinsound. Think French pinball. Space hunt. What? The Hexa game, Space Hunt. I saw a picture of that, and it didn't click about what it is. Who's Hexa Pinball? I think they're a French company. And the only reason it was at the Pinsound booth, Pinsound was showing off when you put on headphones and get to listen to what they've got. They had Elvis there, and I can't remember the other game, but it obviously sounds wicked. And there weren't headphones on this, and they said, oh, well, they did the sound for it, so I'm playing it. I can't make fun of it. I can't make fun of Space Hunt. I enjoyed playing it. There was only one shot I wasn't a fan of, and everything else, I was like, this is pretty fun. Space Hunt! Is this their first Pimmel Machine? Yes. I don't even know how many they made, but Marty used to sing the space hunt theme all the time. Space, hunt, space. Anyway, so that's my machine. I just want to... Are you going to put a deposit down for it, Jeff? It's only 8,900 euro for the classic and 11,000 euro for the LE. Take my money. No, I'm not doing it. Anyway. It comes with foot rubbers, Jeff. It comes with foot rubbers.
    22:56
    I use pin steps. All right, here we go. I want you to name another game. We'll trade off and I'll tell you what I played. Alice in Wonderland. Okay, this is by Dutch, right? The Dutch one? Yeah, Dual Penetration Extreme. Yes. The longest lineups of Expo. I have a problem with this statement, Jeff. Because there's only three of them? Well, and because it probably plays... Yeah. Can you imagine if Stern bought Metallica and they're like, here's one. Like, oh, we got the longest line because we haven't tweaked the game and it's playing really fucking long. And then everyone is like, You know, that's the thing they say. The longest lines, the longest lines, the longest lines. Like, yeah, that's a shit thing because they didn't bring enough and everyone wants to play it. Everyone wants to play everything else as well. They're just really efficient at doing it. There were three and they were set up to two balls. And, you know, some of the art's obviously making people go, oh, I don't think of naked tits when I think of Alice in Wonderland, but oh, there they are.
    23:58
    That aside, you look at it and you look straight down and you go, that's a Papa Duke layout and stuff. You'll hear on Pinball Profile, I actually interviewed Mr. Williams who put that together. He's from Amsterdam. And he talks about the changes he made to the layout. It's a fucking good shooting game, man. I can't knock it. I can't. I'll admit, when it comes to, again, we're not talking about the person, we're talking about the artist and the designer here. I am a John Papa Duke pinball machine fanboy. I love his games with the exception of Star Wars Episode I. I love playing his games. I wish Raza happened because I enjoyed playing that game, but this was pretty awesome to shoot. Could you hear it, Jeff? No, I couldn't hear it very well, actually. But looking at it and the cab and everything else, holy shit, was it good. It was great. Yeah, it's bizarre that this game in some form has survived. When I first got into pinball, I remember jumping onto Pinsides as one of my activities in the first week of joining pinball and seeing this thread and being like, oh my gosh, they're releasing Alice in Wonderland pinball machine? Get me in on this. and seeing that Zombie Yeti artwork that has eventuated into some modified version.
    25:26
    And that was a long time ago. That was 10 years ago, I think. And here we go. We have it ready to purchase. There's an Australian distributor as well that brought in some big Lebowskis and they're bringing in this. And it's quite expensive in Australia. It doesn't directly translate the USD to Australian dollars like some certain titles do. So it's, I think, 23,000 roughly Australian dollars. So there'll be some people that get it. I don't know how long it's going to take to come out. I think that's the part where people are going to have to be really, really patient. Hey, man, I know guys that are waiting two years for their Pulp Fiction, but I think that's money that's safe and secure. It just shit takes a long time now, especially with the smaller companies. Big Lebowski took a long time, but they got it. So you better have some patience if you're putting the money down and you don't need it right away. Just beware. Maybe it's better, and this doesn't help, obviously, the company, but buying it secondhand and paying a little more, at least you know you're getting it and when you're getting it. But how many of those are going to be available? Or pay through a distributor to provide some layer of protection. You know, we saw that. Okay, that being said, though, again, we're going back to Haggis stuff. I spent some time with Zach Menny, and Zach on this network talked about what they had to do with the people that bought Centaurs. And he wanted to make those people good, and it was out a lot of money in pocket. He was out either way, whether he refunded the money or he took whatever that deposit was and applied it to another game. I said to Zach, I'm surprised you did that, but I guess I'm not in your shoes. and the fallout of that would have been understandably terrible. He goes, yeah, it was a pretty expensive marketing campaign, but it did do goodwill by doing that. And I said, oh, for sure it did. But let me just tell you, and I bought direct through Haggis. Had I purchased through you, and these aren't just words after the fact, I couldn't have brought myself to ask for the deposit back. I'm not faulting anyone who does because that's a lot of money, but I personally having Zach as a friend of mine or if it was RS Pinball and Stefan Riedler or Tommy at Nitro or the distributors, I would not have asked any of them for the money back because I was the one who took the risk and I just would have felt and we heard William M talk on Kerry Hardy saying about yeah he didn't do it and he might have been the only one but I would have joined William there. Why should somebody else pay for my mistake? So anyway, that's just my thought. I, um, so I was in on a, on a haggis fathom and, um, when the orders were taken, it was a, I don't even remember what year it was, but it was so long ago. And, um, and then COVID happened and, you know, the reason why I own pinball machines and, um, you know, I've, I've got a business and I, I rent them out and I have machines on location, everything changed. and I kind of stopped playing a lot of pinball at home. And when they said, your machine is ready, Ryan, do you would like to pay the remainder and come pick up the machine? I kind of sat on it for a while because I thought, well, I don't think I want to play this at home. It's not the kind of machine that you have on location. It's too pretty and the resale value will be, I think, not ruined, but the people who are buying it, it's like a museum piece. It's so gorgeous. and I don't think people are going to want to rent it. So I kind of told them, put me at the end of the list, I'm just going to wait a while. And I waited and I sat on it and then they kind of pushed me to say, okay, well, it's ready. We almost kind of finished the local orders. So do you want it? And I thought, no, I'm going to bow out. And at that time, I had a chat to some people and they're like, don't sell it back to them. And there's even certain distributors overseas who wanted my order. And this is the... You sold your spot. Yeah, this is the going rate. You can make a little bit of money after being on the list for two years. And I don't always make money when I sell Pimmel Machine secondhand. I often lose money. I'm like, okay, this is a way to, yeah, I don't know, just cash out and put the money towards something else. What's the point of your fucking story? Get to it, will you? The point of my story is that... Marty would never fucking dangle like this. He gets right to it. The point of my story is that I had many people that wanted it, and I sold it for... It was a very small amount, maybe $1,000 above my deposit rate. And I asked that person, after all this stuff went down, did they get their machine, and they didn't. And it didn't sit well with me. It didn't sit well, and I'd made money off somebody who never got their product. So you refunded it as a good refund? I refunded it. Yeah. Yes. I refunded that money. But it's a very small amount of money. It's just like, here's some chump change. You've lost $10,000. Here's $950 back, whatever it is. It's tough. But yeah, distributor. I still recommend going through a distributor. You go through distributors because you want some service after the fact. That's the biggest reason. And I've used Flip It Out. We use Zach as an example. I'm looking at my Rush Expression Lights right here, and that's the last thing. And, you know, they do a good job, all distributors, and there are a lot of them. That's the funny thing. Once we get through all these new games at Xbox, we'll talk more about distributors, but let's get back to some of the games here. Well, just before we move on from Alice in Wonderland, so are people, like when people are playing this and they're really enjoying it, is this a tick on the John Papaduke? the leisure of people saying, John Papaduke's back, this is a great game, even though it's quite dependent from his original design. Do they think they're ordering a John Papaduke game? I hope for Dutch Pinball's sake that people don't associate it with John Papaduke, because there is that taste in the mouth, and people have been burned, and they don't want to see him in the hobby anymore, and I get it, but tough to say. If you like the game, and you know you can get the game, do you really care? Maybe. Some do, some don't. I don't know. We'll see how it does. I think they'll sell well. I really do. So you picked that game. I'll pick one. I finally played ABBA. Oh. Since we're speaking of European companies, yeah, I got to play ABBA. And I'm not a huge ABBA music fan. It's the one disco group I just can't do, and we've talked about it before on Final Round, just kind of some post-traumatic stress disorder I have with hearing ABBA music. I wasn't waterboarded to ABBA, if that's what you're wondering.
    32:24
    I enjoyed it. It was fun. Good lineups there, and I think they had four or five, and it's been around before. Yeah, it was just nice to finally play it. Have they been shipping? It's such a forgotten pinball machine for me. I mean, there's been a couple of pinball machines, like Princess Bride, where I'm like, oh, yeah, did I dream that? Or did that game actually come out and ship? Which I guess is a sign that pinball's doing really well, that there's so many machines coming out that you can kind of forget about them. The Princess Bride was there. Josh Cougar was there. And I know it was a big thing at the Houston Arcade Expo the week before that. So that game, yeah, that's shipping. It looked awesome. A big lineup for that too. Oh, but they only had one. It doesn't matter. People wanted to play the fucking thing. It was great. And I tell you, I am so close to getting a P3. Like, it's all about how much room I have. and I love playing that game. I love playing Final Resistance. I love playing Heist. I even like playing Lexi Lightspeed. Weird Al? Would you get Weird Al as well? Funny you should say that. Maybe, probably, or I would just be a weasel and trade games with Ian. But I played that at Pintastic in a tournament and I was the bus driver and I chose Weird Al. And I'd never played it before, but I was like, oh, you know, that's the thing about P3. At the bottom, if you're kind of used to the flippers and they're different, that's fine but they're great they're just different that helps you with maybe shooting shots the upper third's going to change a little bit but uh i i just have a good feel for it so what a what a great thing it would be if you had a bunch of friends with p3s you know fast forwards how many years into the future and there's just a plethora of titles to just say hey jeff can i borrow this game i'll swap you for you know what have you got or a new title that says okay i'll get this when you get that one they get you know just yeah yeah and when you bring it of someone's house. There's no hauling up the stairs. It's just like this module you put in. It would just be great. Why not? Think about it. Yeah. Happy birthday, Jeff. Here, I have my weird owl for three weeks. You know, like, yeah, no one's breaking their back over a... Well, the P3 in general, you'll break your back to move that, but not the module. Exactly. Okay, give me another game. I've only got a half an hour left. That's why. So give me another game. There's lots. I'm looking at Pinball News website. I'm looking at the homebrew section. I can't get away from the homebrew section. There's Frozen. There's Greenout. There's a Pokemon pinball machine, and I can't see that there's people hiding in the corner. Yeah, Pokemon was there last year and was good. The three I want to bring up, Steve from Utah through Aaron through Fast brought his Led Zeppelin pinball machine that was being made before Stern made their Led Zeppelin machine. And this had a stairway to heaven multi-ball. It had a moving staircase. you lock balls on the stairs and it shot it up it was fucking awesome it was so good you know what i saw that as well in these pictures and i glossed over it because the artwork is you know on point and quite similar to the uh is it wait is it quite similar or i'm just looking at the led zeppelin logo in general which is like you know it's got a big blimp on the back and the famous led zeppelin font and uh the fonts are going to be all the same right yes of course but still a good shooting game and he asked me some advice. You'll hear it on Pinball Profile, my little wrap-up with Steve. There was that. The one machine I think everyone flocked to look at was Harry Potter. And if I recall, there were five flippers, but there was a... What's the game? Quidditch? Oh, Marty, tell me if I fuck it up. The Golden Finch? He's going to cast a spell on you because you didn't get it right. He's got his wand out right now.
    36:06
    This may be it for this podcaster. Tell my wife and kids I love them. Marty's got me. Anyway, you play, you get the ball in the upper play field, and the upper play field rises.
    36:19
    So you can shoot through. Oh, fuck, is it cool. Leviosa. I think that's what Marty's saying right now. Yeah. Oh, I'm sure he is. Anyway. Avatar. Is this the first time you've played Avatar? One more homebrew before we get to Avatar. It's not the first time. The other game that came back after two years, Daikaiju. Daikaiju was I went on and on about this game it's a surf band and the play field is just wood but it had three spinners and these unique locks and a Spanish eyes pop bumper in the middle it is one of the greatest games I've ever seen in homebrew I think of 8 Ball Beyond I think of my friend Nightmare Before Christmas with Mark and City these are some classic homebrew games Daikaiju if you ever get a chance to see it I think it's out of Wisconsin and holy fuck is it good. Anyway, okay, Avatar. I didn't play it at Expo because I played it two weeks earlier at the UK Open that was there and beautiful game. Holy moly. I'm really happy for Mark and his first game. I don't know, like Marty is a big Avatar guy. I have seen both movies. I also remember in the three-hour movies at one point in both of them I fell asleep for maybe 10 minutes. Not that it's boring, it's just... At the cinema, Jeff, or in the privacy of your own? Oh, gosh. I went and saw Beetlejuice Beetlejuice with Brady, and something happened at the end. I go, how'd that happen? He goes, he said it earlier. I said, well, I might have had a little five-minute siesta there.
    37:53
    Anyway. It blows my mind that people go to a place to do an activity and then fall asleep during the activity. How do you pay so much money and go through the whole experience and be around people and fall asleep. It just blows my mind. You've never nodded off at a massage before your little happy ending? You've never done that? Absolutely.
    38:17
    Exactly. I'm only 39 years old, Jeff. Anyway, one of my best sleeps I've ever had was watching Lord of the Rings.
    38:26
    And the funny thing is, the guy I went with, and now we're talking a three-hour movie, this is the first one. So my buddy, he made fun of me like, dude, you fell asleep, I can hear you snoring. I'm like, oh, sorry, okay, I'm back. He fucking fell asleep right after.
    38:41
    Anyway, Avatar, really good, gorgeous. The reason I'm bringing up that fell asleep thing, I don't actually understand the language and what the names are and the characters. You don't understand the language? I don't think anyone understands the language. That actually was one of the hardest things for me. It said, do this, do this. Don't tell me the name. It means fuck all to me. Tell me where to shoot. And lights do that and stuff. but yes i heard that from um from ron on the slam tilt podcast where he he said they were there was a media day and they were teaching everyone how to play the game and they're like oh so if you want to do the blah blah blah blah blah you know like avatar words you have to shoot this and it's like well that's a different language to me so you're gonna have to dumb it down so jersey jack makes gorgeous games they put so much into it i think jersey jack owners are in love with their games as they should be There a lot of lights And so when you say shoot the blah blah blah and you look at the play field I not finding exactly where this is sometimes I not saying that with Avatar. I'm just saying with some other games, you know, because there's a lot of lights going on. Guns N' Roses was like that, right? A game I love too, by the way. Yeah. Unfortunately, yeah, I'm priced out, I think, of the JGP machines. You know, they've put their foot down. They've said, you know, they're not making the standard edition because nobody bought them. guess what i bought them that was that was for me to put on location you know and and i think the rhetoric what they're saying is games will lose value so you might as well buy the really good version and if it loses a bit of value then it'll lose less the alley will lose less than what the standards will lose but for me i just can't buy a twenty thousand dollar pin machine to put on location location yeah it just doesn't make sense when you can buy a twelve thousand dollar stern which I still have a problem with it being that much in Australia. But what do you do? Let me tell you what I liked about the avatar thing. The two lower playfield things was pretty cool. That was kind of nice. It was actually the screen I liked the most. There was nothing wrong with the playfield. It was good. There's kind of a bug right now where you can, I know they're going to work on it, but there's a multi-ball where you can just add a ball so, so often. It's never-ending. So that'll be worked out. The screen, what I liked when it came to the jackpots, you can see when you're caching in your jackpot how much it's going to be and how much it's increasing by so that was a neat little factor okay now it's time to go for it i i like the information the screen gave me that's still i there's something that annoys me to this day i know everyone loves deadpool and i love deadpool as well is when you hit the boom button on deadpool everything gets wiped off the user interface on the screen and it just says boom and you have no idea. I mean, there's no big like 20 million, 7.5 million, 200,000. You have to kind of look at your score and do the math. Yeah. So many different events happen so shortly, bang, bang, bang, because pinball doesn't stop. And yeah, you miss some of these opportunities. So I miss that information too. I would agree. I would love to get a boom and be like, oh shit, I cashed out at the wrong point. That was only worth 300,000 points versus, you know, like when should I do it? what's the mass behind it. I know they can display it, but... I can't remember what game I was playing. I was playing a game with Ray Day, and I was like, oh, how much is that worth? And the screen changed, and he went, yeah. And he's the guy who does this stuff, by the way. Kudos to him for Metallica. No, but I'm saying he's aware of it, so he knows, yeah, we've got to some way find a way to put that on there. And you see that in different code updates.
    42:12
    Rush puts the information on the sides now for, here's how many shots to multi-ball, and here's the progress. But yeah, the more you can get, the more, even if it's a small size, just give me something because the animations just keep progressing so fast. You miss stuff in pinball. All right, running out of time, Jeff. Cactus Canyon, is there the version, the extended version with the extra things, was that there at Expo? If it was, I didn't go up to it, so I can't speak on that. I'm not waiting anymore for the Cactus Canyon code updates of the Pulp Fiction machines to come out. I'm not knocking it, but I'm also not holding my breath because I would have passed out a long time ago. It's taking a long time. I got to play Pulp Fiction the other day for the first time. There's someone that I know that got one. And yeah, I can't believe the amount of games that I said one day, like, if they ever make this machine, I'll buy it. I can't believe how many of them have come out and I've resisted buying them because Pulp Fiction is right up there in the top five. possibly my favorite movie of all time. Great movie, incredible call-outs, very thematic with what they've done. I'm not crazy about the five characters that were chosen. I don't think Jimmy needs to be in there. I know it's Tarantino's movie, but is he the 10th biggest character in the movie? Probably not. I'm fine with the wolf being there, of course. You've got to have Jules and Uma, but it's a fun shooting game. I know a few people that have had it and sold it already, so I don't know how much lasting power it has. I'm not saying, you know, maybe these people are just rotating games, but... You know what game does seem to have lasting power, Jeff? Blues Brothers. I was with Dr. John. He's got one. Yeah. People don't hate it, Jeff. I've heard a bunch of reports, first-hand reports of people playing the game, and, well, okay, I shouldn't say they don't hate it. It's the best play field that they've done. They said they finished their ball. They didn't walk away, which is more than they can say about the other two titles they've played from Home Pin. So is it better than Stars? Apparently not, but it's not bad. It's not bad. I want to play all new pinball, but there you go. We'll have to wait and see. It was not there. The other game that was a big, big hit that was there would have been X-Men. And once again, Jack Danger. Holy shit, dude. Have you made a great play field and a fun shooting game?
    44:43
    How's the danger room? How's that little area? Are you talking about in the premium? I don't. I mean, I should know because I have one on order, but I'm not sure how different that little bottom left-hand corner. Oh, that's fine. It's fine. Yeah, it's on the pro and the premium. That's fine. It's easy to get out of there. I never drained once in there. Did you order a pro or a premium? I ordered a pro. Can I just say, to me, you made the best investment. I think the pro, I had more fun on that. And I'll tell you why. I'm not knocking premiums. I was playing with a guy who bought a premium, and I'm like, okay. And as we were playing, I said, the one thing I don't like about the premium, I mean, it's very thematic. It's wonderful. It makes sense with what the Sentinels do. But I hate when I shoot a shot and get punished for shooting the shot I was supposed to do. So you'd shoot the ramp, the Sentinel hand would come down, and would throw the ball out into either the outlander center line. I'm like, I fucking made my shot. That's supposed to be on the flipper. Like, fuck off. So the pro doesn't do that. So I'm much more a fan of the pro. The only thing the pro doesn't do is the head doesn't go up and down. The head just stays up the whole time. Fine. I'm good. Is that something that can be fixed with coders? It's more of a hardware thing, like a hardware setup of the game.
    45:57
    Oh, that's interesting. You know, I look at my Zeppelin and I turned off the electric magic because it annoys me because you can't do combos. I wonder if you could turn off the hands, the Sentinel hands, because, yeah. Hands in pinball, nobody likes them. Groot hands, people removing the Groot hands in Guardians of the Galaxy can't see the shots. You can see the shots, so it's not like the Groot hands. The Groot hands, that was the only thing that just got in the way. You know, the cannon on ACDC sometimes got in the way of the in-lane, out-lane, things like that. So that's not an issue. It's just I don't like hitting a shot and being punished like magnets on beetles or something like that. It kicks it down. Or multi-ball where you'd lock a ball and then it would throw it in the out lane. I mean, I talked to Raymond about Rush on the pro hitting the scoop there and throwing it out the middle. Or Kiss hitting Gene and it throws down the middle. You need a ball save there. so that might be the fix on the premium and that would be great i have a question for you jeff acdc you've owned it for a very long time so have i when the cannon shot is is coming out are you modifying your stance to line yourself up with the cannon or are you just doing it from muscle memory or timing in your head no i don't move to the side and also i am only hitting the side when i'm going for a 2x or 3x jackpot because every other cannon shot i aim at the bell Okay. You've got the Pro or the... I have the Pro. The Pro with the LEDs, the upgraded Canon, all that stuff. God, I love the Pro. Yeah. I actually... There's a game I also would rather have the Pro than the Premium. The only thing I know of the Premium I like are the... I like the drop targets, but the stand-ups make it a faster game. I hate the lower play field. It's not for me. It's boring. Nobody likes the lower play field. I don't like hitting the left ramp and it going down to the Canon. No. Canon, only at certain times. Anyway. X-Men. great game now we're going to get to other games but x-men avatar and now metallica three games i talked to five distributors four of them agreed with my guess at which would sell the most what did i guess metallica i did i did and the only reason the other person said x-men is because metallica doesn't have a pro and there are a lot of metallicas out there i think that you know for the people going, why did Stern release Metallica so closely after X-Men? And, you know, John Wick wasn't that long ago either. Well, if you're Stern and you've got a chance to have two of the three choices people are looking at, it's better than one out of two. So... Okay, Jeff, would you put your name down on an interested list for a possible ACDC remastered? I mean, Metallica had the artwork, it had everything. People, no one's like, Oh my gosh, they need to fix this horrible game. But ACDC, that's the one thing. That is a great question. That's a great question. Imagine ACDC with amazing artwork without Angus's face. I love my ACDC game. I love playing every Metallica game. So I see now your dilemma, like why would I get rid of a perfect game? Yeah, because it's perfect times two. So the answer is I would not. So I'm in your boat, too, because I already have it. But I have never owned a Metallica. So the two games I love playing more than anything else, all three if you include Simpsons, the two I love playing more than anything else are Metallica and Iron Maiden. I just love the flow of those games. Music aside and all that stuff, those are the games I have the most fun with. I've never owned either. And the only reason I've never owned either is because I can play them everywhere. I only have so much room. The reason I have Simpsons is... You could say the same thing about ACDC, though. You can play that everywhere if you want. It was my first new in-box, though. So that was when I had two machines. So then I now started to travel and, oh, okay. But I've never owned a Metallica. I'm like, oh, fuck, I really like this game a lot. A lot. Are you ordering one, Jeff? Thinking about it. See, I was moving a game for Centaur, so now that game is still possibly to be moved. I've had a few offers on one. possibly i mean so you you wouldn't put your name down for a simpsons with an lcd screen all the original call outs they fix that stupid side ramp the geometry of that uh little little changes like that you know but geometry i this kid nails it every time dude it's called being a better player i've seen the way you play and you're fucked by the way you're screwed because whatever whoppers you had in Australia, kiss them goodbye, because guess who's moving to Australia? In three weeks' time. Number one player? Are you moving to Australia, Jeff? Oh, you would be fucking dead. No, not quite as good an efficient player, but pretty good in another way. Escher Lefkoff moves here in three weeks. So, so long. Sorry, Lambo. See you, Richard Rhodes. Whatever you thought you were getting, Dr. Curly Tech. Sorry, dude. It ain't happening. and Escher's getting them all, baby. I love how you mention Lambo, and then Richard Rose. Stacey Ball, where are my whoppers?
    51:25
    Oh, gosh. Yeah, he's moving here. Yeah, he's going to be in, what, Queensland or whatever, Brisbane. I mean, he's here for every Brisbane Masters. He might as well just stay here and take all the Queensland whoppers. Sure. I know, but I asked him, I'm like, what other events are you going to? Like, he'll come back for InDisc. That's a biggie. I asked him, you come back for Pemberg? He's like, hmm, what about Papa? And I think that one he might, too. I don't know. Like, it's not like, you know, he's, what, 21 years old, give or take a year, 21? I have kids that age, too. You know, when you're a parent, it's an exciting time because you're seeing your child grow into a young man. And in one way, you're like, oh, you want to coddle them and, you know, don't go away, but you want to see them flourish. and this is a chance for him to flourish and find a job, find a career. You know, is school going to be that? You know, for a very mature guy, he's got a lot of growing up to do, like most 21-year-olds, right, like my kids, like Escher. So he's got to find himself. And I just wonder, it's different. Like if you go away an hour or two away or an hour or two flight away, that's different. There's always home right there. But he's going across the continent here, and I hope it works out for him. Queensland is a horrible place to find yourself. No, the weather is too good and the beaches are too nice. This is why there's less events going on. It's like California versus New York City. Which one would you rather live in versus which one would you rather go on a holiday in? I think I'm getting this analogy right. You want to go to California to have a good time and relax, but the culture, everything is happening in New York. that's when you're like, well, it's cold and miserable, so I'm going to get a good job. It's never cold or miserable in Queensland. It's too good there. Okay. That being said, now I'm talking to a hiking boy who's also, you know, we got talking about three weeks away from Escher moving there, three weeks away from somebody turning 40 years old. Woo, baby. The midlife crisis has already started, folks. I saw his hair dye job. Holy shit. Can I tell you a story about this, Jeff, really quickly? Go ahead. I'm not sure what it's like in Canada. Sorry. Yes. No, I was just going to say New York to California. To answer your question, I probably would choose New York. And I love California, but you get to see all different four seasons. You don't get that in Australia.
    53:44
    Well, yeah. Some people say that the fourth season is missing because we don't really have the snow. Yeah. If you want to work with the kids in Australia, you have to get what's called a working with children check. I'm not sure if you have that there in Canada. How many times have you failed it? Be honest. I've never had to get the check Jeff I've never worked with kids you don't need a check if you want to have a kid yourself you can just go and have sex with someone and have a kid and the government doesn't give a fuck if you want to work with a kid or volunteer you have to go jump through a bunch of hoops to get a working with children check just to make sure that you're a good person what do they do just show you like playgrounds and they make sure you're not popping a boner like what do they do like is it it's just do you have any prior convictions but it's just you know no like seriously i i'm not making fun of that at all that is something that is the worst crime you could possibly do any offense to children's or harm but i am kind of curious i'm not joking what is the test that they do for that okay so this is what i'm about to tell you so i i didn't know and i got told i'm about to volunteer at my um one of my kids schools to go on a um a school excursion oh okay they're like can you please get this test so i i logged in and uh this is after a pinball comp it's like 11 o'clock at night i'm like i gotta hurry up and do this because um i don't know how long the process takes i want to get the ball rolling and they're just getting me to upload lots of forms of id and it's all digital now i don't have to go inside any forms taking photos um so i'm uploading my passport and my driver's license and and proving you know where I've lived and it's taking longer than the recommended time and I gotta take a shit Jeff like I'm like I gotta take a shit I have a shower to go to bed and one of the photos like didn't upload properly I'm like I'm gonna finish this off on the toilet so you took the picture of you wait wait oh wait so I get to the last step and I'm not really reading that you know like now I have to do this I'm just like tell me what document you want me to upload and I get to the last point and it's like well now we need to verify your your face and i thought they just needed to verify my face to match the documents i've been uploading i didn't think that this was going to be the photo so i'm i'm about to have a shower and i i'm taking taking a shit so i'm butt naked and i i just recently dyed my hair blonde which looks it looks what it looks like and I take a photo and the app is like, your eyes are closed. And they're clearly not closed, but I'm like, all right, I'll just take it again and I'll do that thing where, you know, if you're taking a photo against the sun and you're like, three, two, one, open your eyes and you open them more than you need to, you kind of look a bit scary. Anyway, I did it and then the next day I got a message saying, you've been approved, you'll get your ID in three weeks, but you can log into this like Service Vic app now and see a photo. And there I am with the Working With Children check. I don't know. I'm going to start sharing my screen on... Can you see that, Jeff? Can you see me yet? Oh, yeah. Can you see me? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's my Working With Children.
    57:13
    Please send that to me. I can't screenshot this. They won't let me screenshot it. It's a security document, but I am... Do you have an iPad? take a picture of it on your iPad. You've got too many fucking photos of me, Jeff. I'm not taking more, but for everyone else at home, I'm clearly naked. I'm not wearing a top, and I'm opening my eyes. I look like I should not be working with kids, Jeff. That's the thing, and this is my ID for working with kids. I can't believe I took a photo while taking a shit naked.
    57:44
    Again, I'll remind you, this is not final round. This is consolation round. the quality is much better on our show other than uh what you might have heard on old head-to-head or oh my god i didn't need to kill anyone jeff what kind of final round episode is this i uh you know i was trying to think of a joke like how to come on here you know like oh it's our first episode in a long time and obviously the big news out of australia is you know uh what's going to happen to these two two legends in the uh broadcasting industry and uh with with all the big news uh and try to tie it into like uh tenacious d canceling their australian tour little switch i was gonna go to that i was so excited it lined up perfectly with the brisbane masters and then he just had to go and open his mouth and say it one day before yeah you know speaking of australian and music i got to see king gizzard in concert this summer how's that fucking spectacular and this is a guy who knew three songs maybe and i listened to a few i'm like yeah because people said oh you might like it i was like it's okay it's not bad in concert every song was a masterpiece i've watched it on youtube the concert because they film it i've watched it in full three times since because it's just like i can't believe i was there i can't believe i saw this jam now that being said they have other concerts and i've watched other concerts and I'd be like, oh, they're okay. They not bad They not great I just saw a great set and they change it up every time I just I hit the jackpot It was good I tried to get into King Gizzard and the Lizard Wizard and I just Live is the way to see it There's no other way. Why? Because they're all masters of their craft at the music and the crowd is so into it. The crowd just... They're not falling asleep, Jeff? There was no sleeping. I didn't even go for popcorn, which I do at concerts every now and then too. No, it was good. I don't want to miss the end of the games. Ninja Eclipse was there again and this is a game that from Turner Pinball was there two years ago and people were like, what's that? They listened and they made the changes. They changed the cab. They changed a lot of things and it was their last year and people were like, holy shit, most improved game by far. It was there again this year. I think they're going to sell out of their lot. Sell out of their lot? What does that mean? I think they were going to make a hundred. I think they're going to sell them out easily. I really do. It's a good price point. It's a good playing game. This is the guy who bought the assets from Deep Root? Yeah. Does it have the pin bar or there's no pin bar? No. And you know what? Going back to Deep Root, that was the one thing I wish they never did was the pin bar. It was just make a pinball machine first, get that down pat, and then go to that. Pinball machines, when they first came out, they didn't start off with LCD screens. They were electromechanical. Then they went to solid state. There are steps. That's a great innovation, but just not yet. Show everything else works before you go to that. And they might have survived. I doubt it. They're still at a scam money, but whatever. Anyway, speaking of Deep Root, you know, back on this Haggis thing again, you were one of those twats. And there's no other way to put it. Like, dickhead move things. Even on Final Round Podcast, like, Jeff, you knew, you knew. And, like, people were pointing fingers at me. Like, all I did was voicing. I fucking lost money on the thing. You knew what? Sorry, what did I do? What am I getting in trouble from? being a pin-side dickhead.
    61:15
    Listen, most people here listening to this podcast and in general have reached out to Marty. Hey, how you doing? I'm sorry about what happened, blah, blah, blah. Not your fault, blah, blah, blah. And in fact, listen to the end of this program because I talk to Marty every week. I said, you know, I was at this show. I was at the UK Open. I was at Cleapin. Everyone's asking me, how's Marty doing? And he's glad to hear that and stuff. I'm going to do one step further. Listen to the end of the show. You'll see what I mean. It's not just me saying that. It's real people really saying it. Anyway, but there are some dickheads out there, and talk off, don't care, that would say, want to point the fingers at everyone, when really, that's not fair. When you're just an employee, that's all you are. Anyway, you were kind of like that, too. I'm calling you out right now. I love you, Ryan, but when Deep Root went under, you're like, ah, you knew you were promoting. I'm like, well, I'm promoting because I'm voicing the thing, and I want to see it do well. I've got friends that worked there in Barry O at the time, and of course, Stephen Bowden and stuff. and John Norris and I want to see it do well. I want to see everybody do well. And you were like, ah, but you should have known. There's no way I would have known. Did I say that? Oh, you were such a dick. I'm sorry if I did, but I don't remember saying that. Surely I said something else. Like, I can't believe this guy fucking stole $52 million off grandmas. Yeah. And that works for Boeing. I don't think I said you, huh? And that works for Boeing. Yeah, I don't understand that. In these examples, I want to see people, So if there's a crime involved, yeah, you should do the time. 100%. And try to make people right if you can. We'll see. But distributors, I don't want to come back to that. We talked about the different distributors. What's it like in Australia? Because I know in North America here, the number of distributors have popped up everywhere. And I got a feel for them because these people that have been doing it for a long time, that have been putting a lot of money and storing a lot of games, and I've got a list of 10 LEs I could sell. well, you've got to buy this many pros and premiums to get an LE and all that stuff. And they're stuck with his inventory. And so a new game comes out, and they're like, I can only take so many. And maybe the company's like, hey, we want you to take more. Well, I've got 30 of your other ones back in the shop, and it's just... It's not about John Wick. It's about Venom. Well, whatever it is. You know, like there's some... There's nothing wrong with... I love playing John Wick. I love playing Venom. But these are games that were harder to move than, obviously, Jaws and maybe Metallica and X-Men and all these things. It's just going to happen. There's going to be ones that are more popular than the others. But if distributors aren't taking a bigger allotment, what these companies have done are, and Stern has done, is said, okay, who wants a distributorship? And I feel bad for a lot of the longtime people that have been doing the service. I don't think there should be a monopoly either by any means. And some countries have that. But I just feel like, holy shit, it's got to be tough to be a distributor. I really believe that. You're saying that because they can't move the titles, they're announcing more distributors because that's their in. Their in is like, well, he hasn't been watching. It's not selling well. You can start a company on the back of this. Is that what you're saying? I don't know what arrangements were done and agreements. If you're taking on being a distributor, do you have a territory? Sounds like you don't. And maybe they were never promised that. So maybe it's just some false thoughts. Oh, I've got this territory. I'm the only one in this city. And the next thing you know, it's like, oh, there's another one in my city or right nearby. now you're competing and I don't know it's it's just got to be tough and the most important thing for me when it comes to distributors it's the service it's I've got a problem with this game can you help me and and they look after that for you so you're not chasing parts down or this and that and the communication too so it's tough I just want to say it's something I really do feel especially in the last few years in the current culture it's got to be tough to be a distributor Don't you think? I mean, like everything you're saying to me is so foreign because we live in different parts of the world. And in Australia, it's different. We, I guess, maybe crave a bit of competition and wish there were multiple distributors, just two or three for something. It's just one. So when a game gets announced, it's like, well, here's the price. And if you don't like the person distributing it or if you have a bad relationship, which happens all the time, Like these are human beings running these companies. And I'm sure, you know, people butt head on things. People come to disagreements about how something should be serviced or, you know, warranted. And yeah, if you have a tough conversation with your distributor and they're the only people who bring in, say, JGP machines, for example, guess what? You're not getting any more JGP machines. I'm asking. I'm not saying I know. Is this because Gary or Jack have arrangements with these distributors? Like, yeah, you're the only one, you're a buddy, you've been with me forever and ever, and we'll have other distributors. But they actually have to buy from you. I found that out in England that there are other distributors, but they all have to buy from the same guy. For Stern, for example, there's one master distributor, and they've been with Stern for the whole time. They've been around 30 or so years. So they have a great relationship with them, and they're during the tough times. and they've managed to get sub-distributors. So there's other people in other states, a very small amount, but they have to all sell for the same price. They can't undercut each other because essentially they're getting it from the same person. They might get a different shipment directly to them. It's not all like going to double handles, but there essentially is only one distributor in Australia. I think that's why your prices are a little higher, I believe. I mean, you certainly have the shipping in the dollar exchange and stuff like that, but a little more competition might make it better. It is, but I mean, who's going to do that? So I don't think it's going to happen for Stern, even if someone came in and offered stupid amounts of money. But for the other titles, I guess you could put the pinball market into two baskets, like the Stern and there's everything else. Is everything else enough for a company? Sure, it is, but you're going to have to compete against someone who's been in the industry for so long that how many millions of dollars are you going to have to plunk down to say this is a new company and I want to earn a couple of thousand dollars here and there on a pinball machine? It's tough. Do you think it's millions of dollars, really, to open a distributorship? No way. No chance. Yeah. No chance. Millions? Yeah. No way. I'm telling you the distributorships that have opened up in North America here aren't dropping down millions. Yes. Okay. So in North America, you can say, send me two of these machines. When you're getting pinball machines to a different country, you have to fill a whole container. How many is that? 30? It depends on the size of the container. But sure, say 30. 30 times 20,000 is only 600,000. And that's retail. And you're not paying 600,000. You're paying a lot less. I don't think it's a lot less. I don't know. If they're selling them for $20,000, they're not paying $20,000. No, of course not. But it's also, it's just... Oh, I miss Marty. He knew math. Fuck.
    68:24
    You and your... I don't believe that these people are making that much money off pinball machines. Prove me wrong. Someone messaged me and say, this is the wholesale price of a stern pinball machine. And so this is how much money they make. Someone messaged me. I'm not going to... If there's another person out there who is going on a field trip with children and have taken a photo while you're taking a shit completely buck naked, please contact us here. We're going to use the final round, pinball at gmail.com to shoot us a message about this. Anything else, including any thoughts you have on Marty and how you want him back because I am going to say so long right now.
    69:04
    I've got to say goodbye because I've got things to do. I've got my in-laws over. We're about to have dinner. so anyway uh i wanted to get this out ryan i do appreciate you doing this and i told marty that we're doing this he he got a kick he said that'll be great i think what he's basically saying he wasn't threatened by anything you can do no no one ever is no one is i mean parents who are dropping their kids off on the field trip might be feel a little threatened but other than that who's that guy i've seen him on a few hiking expeditions and uh yeah anyway i'm gonna regret telling you that you're not getting that photo jeff i'm just letting you know you you don't think i didn't take a picture of my screen when you showed it oh are you fucking serious guys ladies and gentlemen jeff has just way too many compromises like if if you want to cancel ryan i don't know how i haven't canceled myself but just got the goods if you want to ever blackmail me just pop a message to jeff he can be bought done and done no you know why i won't because i want to see another Jesse J's Pinball Adventure podcast. I want it to happen.
    70:11
    Anyway. Okay, Ryan. Or maybe you're just like P. Diddy and you've just got lots of baby oil, but also you've got footage of everyone and you just don't fuck with Jeff because here's this picture that he's got of you. By the way, that's a good general rule. Because one, I have the gift of gab. I also have the format to fucking can get the last word in too so you better make it count if you're gonna do it anyway we love you jeff and we you had nothing to do with the demise of date root pinball just let it be known thank you thank you very much oh there was a guy with a home pin thing all right uh it was called what is called a dumpster fire and it's a virtual pinball cab and he's got all these great games unique games like he made his own version of stranger things and other wicked games and then all of a sudden the retro atomic zombie land thing came on and it's me going retro atomic zombie adventure and it came on i'm like hey what the hell and he goes oh i put that on there as a joke i go well that joke's my voice he goes well i guess you're on my machine it's just a trailer that's all you see i thought that was pretty funny retro atomic zombie adventure land aliens I'm fading the earth. Anyway, it was fun as fuck to do. I was with David Thiel. Are you kidding me? It was a blast. Is he working for anyone now? Sorry, I know you have to. The answer is yes. Yes, yes, yes, yes, he is. Who's he working for? Well, you'll have to go back to your pin side and get on a few things. Oh, God. I've got to get going. But as I have said, since we've lost Haggis and stuff and Marty is doing well, that's all I'll say. I'm not going to put words in his mouth. He'll say it when he comes back on final round. Doing well, but you can imagine, like I would, if it happened to me, I'd be like, oh, fuck, I've got to find a job now and stuff like that. So our good friend's working, and I'll let him tell you all the good stuff. But everywhere I go, people are saying, how's Marty, how's Marty? Tell him I'm doing okay. And I do, and it means a lot to him. But I thought, you know what would mean more? Is if he heard it. So here are a bunch of people that I got just this weekend, no loan. I should have been doing it for months from Expo, wishing our good friend Marty well. and we hope he's back here on not consolation round, on fucking final round. Anyway, thanks for listening. See you, Jeff. Hey, Marty, it's Ray Day. Just want to say I miss your presence on final round, and I hope everything's going well, and I can't wait to hear that iconic laugh again. Didn't he kill you once? Yeah, that wasn't as funny, was it? You sure you want him back? I think I could forgive him. G'day, Dr. John here, over at an expo with Jeff for some reason. Just wanted to shout out to Marty and say, hope you're doing well, and we really appreciate all the hard work you did with my Fathom and my Celts. We really love the games, and looking forward to the future with you. See ya. This is Ron Hallett from the Slamtail Podcast. Where the hell is Marty? Marty, come back. Pinball needs you. We need you now.
    73:19
    Hey, Marty. This is Derek Karamanian, now a model maker at Stern Pinball. You know, we met a number of years ago. It's been a long time. You know, last time was in Texas. But I'm really sad to hear what happened to you at Haggis Pinball and the whole situation. But, you know, the whole podcast that you're doing, Final Round Podcast, aside from pinball show and slam tilt, it's the only show every week that makes me laugh. and not hearing you on a weekly basis, it makes me really sad. And I really do care for you. And it wasn't your fault at all about the whole Haggis situation. You're just really a victim of the whole thing. I really, really want to hear your voice again and see you at shows. Please don't think you did anything wrong or anything. And we'd like to see you back, Marty.
    74:12
    Josh Rupp with Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. I almost said my company name there for a second. But I'm from Vernal, Utah. I don't know if you know that's in the armpit of Utah. Do you want me to explain that? I'll do it later, but this is not visual, so I can't do that. But known Jeff for years, man. This podcast is fantastic. But you know what? My favorite guy out of all the whole podcasts is Marty. And I miss him. Marty, you've got to come back, dude, because I love your voice, love your candor. It's great. Yeah, there's no way this is going to air.
    74:41
    Well, if I announce you as the champion of Australia, you'll put it on, right? We're back. Okay. Hey, Marty, it's Rucko from Seattle. Big fan. Bring back the movie reviews for one, but also please come back. We miss you. Now we're just stuck with Jeff.
    75:01
    Marty, it's Josh Sharp. You've got to come back, man. Let's go. Let's do it. All the best, brother. Hey, Marty Robbins, Jerry Thompson from Stern. Just wanted to say I miss you and look forward to having you back. You're better than Jeff anyway. Hey, Marty, it's Joe Cherovino. How you doing, my friend? Miss you. Really miss your laugh and all the crazy dick jokes you and Jeff tell on the podcast. And I hope you're doing OK, man. And we miss you here at Expo. Hopefully see you next time, man. All the best. Take care of my friend. How's it going, everybody? Todd McCulloch here. Just wanted to say hello. And Marty, want to say hello to you. Need you back on the airwaves here. I miss you. And, you know, every time I play my father, I think of you. It's a beautiful game, and I appreciate all the hard work you did. And miss you, love you, and hope to get you back on the airwaves soon. Hope to see you soon. Thanks, Marty. Hey, Marty, this is Christopher Franchi. Where are you, buddy? We need you back. We got this teal-less guy with his stupid hair, and he smells real bad. Please come back. We love you. We miss you. What, a guy can't fart?
    76:07
    Hey, Marty, this is Glenn Wechter, your buddy from Tennessee. And I just want to say the pinball hobby is better with you in it. We miss you, and I can't wait to hear you back on Final Round with Jeff.
    76:19
    Oh, hi. It's Roger Sharp. You probably don't remember me. I've been around pinball for a while. But, Marty, I just wanted to wish you well. Understand, from a sage old person, well past his prime, tomorrow is another day. I mean, wasn't that Tara? And gone with the wind? Tomorrow's another day. Marty, hang in there. Love you. Good Gone with the Wind reference. That really will do well. That's going to work down under. Anybody over the age of 80 loves you. Thanks, Roger. That's right. I think it was still in black and white. No, no, no. I think it was still colored.
    76:57
    This is Nick Bird from Pensami X Pinball, and I just want to give a big shout-out to Marty. Marty, where you at, man? You left me here with Jeff all alone. We miss you, brother. Can't wait to talk to you soon.
    77:09
    Hey, Marty. It's the not-seasoned veteran, Keith Alwood. Hope you're doing all right, man. Jeff, thanks for this. Look, Marty, I've known you since the start of I got into pinball. You're one of the first podcasters I listened to. I was on your other podcast, loved every minute of talking to you guys. and especially you, Marty, because your heart is so much in the middle of pinball. You kind of, no matter what's going on in pinball, you want it to be great, you want it to be amazing, and for me, you're an inspiration in pinball and I really miss seeing you, and, you know, it's been a tough time for you, but we're here, and we love you, and when you're ready, I'm here to shoot some pinball with you, day or night, whenever. Can you do that now in English, Neil?
    78:03
    Hey, this is Travis from Triple Drain. And I just want to say I'm having to stare at Jeff's ugly face right now. It's making me realize how much I miss Marty, that beautiful bastard. I need you to come back. I miss your face. I miss our Merkin talks. And I hope you're doing well. Hope you're doing awesome. And I hope to see you soon, bud. Marty, it's been so long. Travis actually has facial hair. That's how long it's been. It's true. It's three hairs. It's three, but I think it looks good still. Stick to radio. All right, thanks.
    78:38
    Hey, Marty, it's Tom Graff from Fox Cities Pinball and Triple Drain. Hey, we miss you. We know you're hiding in that kangaroo pouch right now, but please just come out of it. I know it's nice and warm in there, but we really miss you, buddy. Hi Marty, it's Emily from Colorado We miss you Please come back, I love you and miss you And I need to hear you say your name a few times And Jeff's a total cunt Especially when you're not around Love you, miss you