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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 35: Spicy Tom

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 22m·analyzed·Apr 21, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Triple Drain covers PinWoofer audio, Bond 60th review, and Foo Fighters exploit analysis.

Summary

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Episode 35 features Joel, Travis, and Tom discussing technical audio upgrades (PinWoofer CDU), James Bond 60th Anniversary pinball impressions, and recent Stern code updates. The hosts dive deep into Foo Fighters exploit mechanics and geometry-based strategies, particularly the band mod paddle target technique for leveling up power-ups safely. Discussion spans audio personalization tiers, game difficulty, and competitive meta implications.

Key Claims

  • All 500 James Bond 60th Anniversary units shipped without shaker motors installed at factory; they are being installed afterwards

    high confidence · Joel: 'All 500 of them were made with no shaker motor. So now they're being made afterwards.'

  • Keith Elwin (designer of Bond 60th) has only reached wizard mode twice despite designing the game to be nearly unbeatable

    high confidence · Tom: 'He said this whole time that he's played the game, he's only got to the wizard mode twice. And this is Keith Elwin.'

  • As of April 20, every Stern LCD game received a code update with enhanced Insider Connected features

    high confidence · Tom: 'As of 4-20, every Stern LCD game... has a code update... they updated the overall, like, Stern operating system so that there's more to do with Insider Connected'

  • Foo Fighters recent code update nerfed the last shot formula, reducing its points value

    medium confidence · Travis: 'They slightly nerfed something a little bit just based on, I think it was the formula that they changed... the formula for the last shot changed a little bit to where it's not going to be worth as much.'

  • PinWoofer CDU unit costs $150 and includes headphone jack, sub controls, and external coin door button functionality

    high confidence · Joel: 'So what I will say is it's $150... you got your normal knob for your volume. You have a headphone jack for headphones... two knobs for a sub out... four buttons on the bottom...correlate to your buttons on the inside of the coin door'

  • The band mod paddle target exploit in Foo Fighters remains unpatchable due to playfield geometry constraints

    high confidence · Travis: 'I don't see this getting patched necessarily because you still have to do a little bit of work... that's the one thing that they can't change after the fact'

  • James Bond 60th topper is supposedly designed to work on the Cornerstone game but integration is uncertain

    medium confidence · Joel: 'That same topper is apparently supposed to work on the Cornerstone game. And I i doubt it's been integrated yet because they haven't sold it'

Notable Quotes

  • “I will absolutely plug my stream, the Flippin' Out stream on YouTube, because I did a topper cam. That is something that they have not shown well... the topper and how well it's integrated into the game is actually super impressive.”

    Joel @ mid-episode (Bond 60th discussion) — Highlights missed marketing opportunity by Stern in showcasing Bond 60th topper integration quality

  • “If you get to the wizard mode, pat yourself on the back, because that is impressive. It's a cool game.”

    Tom @ Bond discussion — Emphasizes game difficulty and Keith Elwin's design intent for Bond 60th as nearly unbeatable

  • “What I focus on is getting all the targets down because then that exposes the paddle. So every single time you hit that paddle, whatever insert that you're on... you can hit the paddle, ricochet it around, hold your upper right foot.”

    Travis @ Foo Fighters exploit discussion — Core explanation of repeatable, safe exploit strategy using band mod geometry

  • “I've only made fun of you for, like, I don't know, 10 minutes this morning? Are you still hurt over that?”

    Tom @ Opening segment — Reveals ongoing banter dynamic in show; meta-commentary on group chemistry

  • “It's not going anywhere. Nobody's going to buy it anyways... Well, it is surprising. There are distributors that still have them, but then there are already people selling them.”

    Tom/Joel @ Bond 60th discussion — Reflects premium collector pricing and market accessibility concerns for Bond 60th

  • “I'm excited to watch some tournaments in this where it's like, okay, what's he going to do? He needs to g...”

    Travis @ End of episode (cut off) — Anticipation of competitive meta evolution around Foo Fighters exploit strategies

Entities

JoelpersonTravispersonTompersonPinWoofercompanyDanpersonKeith ElwinpersonJames Bond 60th AnniversarygameFoo Fightersgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: James Bond 60th positioned as collector's premium with limited availability and high price point; uncertain mass-market appeal

    medium · Tom: 'It is surprising. There are distributors that still have them, but then there are already people selling them.' Secondary market activity suggests limited volume and collector exclusivity.

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts receiving hardware samples (PinWoofer CDU, Bond 60th) from manufacturers/operators for testing and streaming content

    high · Joel received CDU sample from Dan at PinWoofer; Travis received matching sample. Zach at Flippin' Out lent Bond 60th. Indicates manufacturer outreach to content creators.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Foo Fighters band mod paddle target exploit creates new viable early-game strategy for leveling power-ups safely and efficiently

    high · Travis documents repeatable, geometry-based exploit: 'you hit the paddle, ricochet it around, hold your upper flipper up, and the ball will hit off there back to the paddle target again, and then it's actually pretty safe.' Works across multiple code versions.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin intentionally designed Bond 60th wizard mode to be nearly unbeatable; designer himself has reached it only twice

    high · Tom quotes Elwin: 'he wanted to make an unbeatable game or an almost unbeatable game because the game is hard.' Reflects conscious design decision toward difficulty.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: James Bond topper design compatibility claimed for unreleased Cornerstone game; integration status uncertain pending release

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.428

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. All right. I know Travis is getting antsy. So this new thing with Zencaster, we're just hitting buttons, and we're trying to do all the audio in one take. And so because of that, Travis can't talk. And we are doing our – you can talk now if you want to cut me off. I can tell your auntie to do it. But we can during our pre recording meeting, we just were like, we just need to get into it. Like, screw this. Why? Why? Why plan? Why get a plan here? So we're diving right in. Tom, are you you good to go? You feeling good? Better believe your ass. I'm ready. Travis, how are you feeling? You good? Let's go. Let's do it. Here we go. Here we go. Start the song, Joel. I got to be quiet. You got to be quiet during the song. OK, I'm ready. We're three guys who like to talk and ball. So we came up with a class our day. We're a joy drive down the fucking hall. And we call on ourselves. Triple three. We're triple.
1:21
Triple three. Okay, we did it. We got everything out of the way now. So, Travis, you can do whatever you need to do. I feel like you've been holding it apart and you just got to let it rip. I'm so hyped from just sitting here and not being able to say anything or do anything. It's the intro, man. Thanks, Mom. We've got to get through it.
1:40
Well, here's the thing, Joel. Like, intros are important. You have to hook the people, Joel. Oh. It's fucking Tom playing in the middle of this. Tom has built his room so much that the hallway between his games now has a game. I'm practicing for Worlds. Go ahead.
2:05
I used to edit out all the stuff in the background noise. And believe it or not, most of the time the background noise was Tom, you know, just chugging a beer or just now it's all background noise. It was me? No, it was mostly Travis, actually. We're getting up, getting down, ripping them, cracking his eighth ear. Why is this me? I don't understand. What have I done to you all day? I've only made fun of you for, like, I don't know, 10 minutes this morning? Are you still hurt over that? I'm not hurt over that. Your joke didn't hit this morning. It hit just fine. It hit just fine, yes. Carl didn't laugh at it. I do think it is funny. Oh, he laughed. Carl laughed. He almost had to go home from work. He was laughing so hard. I could tell. No, he specifically said he had to see what I said. Oh, right, right, right. Got it, got it, got it. Okay.

  • Foo Fighters rule card lists 'bomb, speakers, engine' as the three drop target power-up icons, with speakers displayed as a shield image

    high confidence · Tom: 'It says bomb speakers engine, but the icon of speakers is a shield.'

    • Godzilla
    game
    Zach (Flippin' Out)person
    Cornerstone Bondgame
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Tanya (code designer)person
    Ray Dayperson
    Raymondperson
    Neil McCraeperson
    Deadpoolgame

    medium · Joel: 'That same topper is apparently supposed to work on the Cornerstone game. And I doubt it's been integrated yet because they haven't sold it.' Speculative compatibility claim.

  • $

    market_signal: Stern's marketing/reveal content has not adequately showcased Bond 60th topper integration and visual impact; third-party streamer highlighting superior demonstration

    high · Joel: 'Stern has not shown this topper in action, in my opinion, very well... I hope I portray how well that topper's actually integrated into the game.' Implies missed marketing opportunity.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Recent Foo Fighters code update included formula adjustment to last shot mechanics, reducing point value

    medium · Travis: 'the formula for the last shot changed a little bit to where it's not going to be worth as much.' Specific mechanic tuning based on play-testing feedback.

  • ?

    product_concern: All 500 James Bond 60th Anniversary units shipped without shaker motor installed; corrections being made post-factory

    high · Joel explicitly states 'All 500 of them were made with no shaker motor. So now they're being made afterwards.' Indicates systematic production oversight.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern implementing enhanced Insider Connected features across all LCD games with April 20 code update

    high · Tom: 'they updated the overall, like, Stern operating system so that there's more to do with Insider Connected' alongside game-specific updates to Foo Fighters and Godzilla.

  • ?

    technology_signal: PinWoofer CDU represents modular audio upgrade ecosystem with tiered customization from basic sub to full amplification replacement

    high · Joel details pricing tiers: $30 basic sub vs $150 CDU with controls vs full amp system. Demonstrates aftermarket audio accessory market maturity.

    • 2:59
    A few things. So first off. Hey, Tom, what game are you playing back there, by the way? That is High Hand.
    3:06
    Oh. Joel, do you know what High Hand is? Yeah, it's an old EM, clearly. All right, good talk. Let's just go on to the podcast. Okay. So what do we got? A few things. First off, this is the second week using Zencastr to record video. While we record, the video looks like potato cam. It looks terrible. But, hey, it actually came out looking pretty good, so I was pretty happy with that. Hopefully the people watching YouTube are enjoying that. If you are, thanks for watching it. Travis looks terrible right now. Travis looks probably better. I like how we don't – you know what? I'm going to ignore your barb, and I'm just going to say I love how we established that we don't have a pre-production meeting about this. But then you proceed to have the production meeting within the first two minutes of the podcast. We have stuff we've got to get out of the way. Why do the people need to know about how we do Zencaster? I don't understand. Do you want to tell them what toilet paper you're ordering for your bathroom? Quality content. Okay.
    4:07
    So, anyways, I'm pissed that I didn't get a mod like you guys did. Let me tell you. That was a good segue there. Let me tell you. We'll just go into it. Hang on. No, no, no. We've got to talk about Zencastr more. For the guy who's buying all these pinball machines in here. Yeah. What I was saying about Zencastr. Let's talk about Zencastr some more. Yeah. That was just a pinball. Let's just wrap it up.
    4:29
    For everybody there that wants their pinball content, we're going to tell you about Zencastr right now. We're still talking about it. And you're going to play my game. You're going to hear it. You're going to be done with it. All I'm saying is we have to pay for it. I'm going to go play. You do Zencastr for a few. Do your skill. By the way, we're not getting paid by Zencaster. We're paying Zencaster. That's what I'm trying to get to. What I'm saying is now that we've paid, the dog is playing pinball right now. What I'm saying is now that we've paid for Zencaster, I appreciate the Patreon members that we recently got. We recently got four new members. Thank you for those people that are supporting this channel. Travis is gone. Tom has checked out. Now I know why short people are so good at pinball. The whole reason I brought up Zencaster was to thank the new people that are supporting this podcast. Why they're supporting this, I don't know. So they can hear you talk about Zencaster and how we spend their money. That's it. That's what they want. That's it. Thank you, guys. This is not going well.
    5:34
    Okay, so we can check that box. So, Tom, why are you pissed? You're pissed because Travis and I got a mod and you didn't. Is that right? Yeah. Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's pretty par for the course. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
    5:47
    Maybe people just have sympathy for Travis. I think I ask kindly, and then they just feel bad for Travis. I think that's why he gets random things. Yeah. I appreciate everything I get, Joel. I do. I appreciate it all. I'm with you. I appreciate that you're with me, that I appreciate whatever I get. Thank you. What we want to talk about, this is going to be a battle. Tonight is just going to be a struggle to get through any of this, isn't it? Tom and I are all hocked up on caffeine. That's true. Right, right, right. I have Diet Dr. Pepper. Tom, what are you drinking tonight? I'm all out, baby.
    6:27
    So we have like 10 more minutes of this, and then he's just going to quickly decline. You got about 40 minutes of that goes on off. I'm all out, baby. okay what we want to talk about is uh we talked about this a while ago pinwoofer pinwoofer i have a full pinwoofer kit i have it in godzilla the thing is awesome but when i originally reached out to the pinwoofer guy what i was asking about was whether or not he had some sort of headphone adapter kit because i use those in all my games started a really interesting conversation turns out he had one in development and he finally got it made and what's cool about his headphone adapter kit, if you go to PenWolfer.com, it's called the CDU, the Coindor unit, is it's more than just a headphone adapter kit. It also has all of the sub functionality in it. So he had this separate unit, this like base booster unit. He built that into the CDU and Travis had voiced that he doesn't do anything to his games besides add a sub. So Dan, the guy at PenWolfer is like, I want Travis to try this. If he's tried a bunch of subs, let's have him try this. So that's why he sent Travis one as well. So what is cool is on this unit, you got your normal knob for your volume. You have a headphone jack for headphones. But then you also have two knobs for a sub out. You have a crossover and a volume knob for the sub.
    7:49
    And they're making fun of me because I'm using my hands. And the last thing that they added, which is really neat, is there are four buttons on the bottom. And those four buttons correlate to your buttons on the inside of the coin door. So you can actually mess with the menu and any of that stuff from the outside without having to open your door. And if you don't like that, there's a switch on the back so you can disable those buttons. If you have children, yes. Travis is directing a plane to come land. This is how it used to be before we did video. Yeah, just a lot of making fun of me while I talked. Yep. Right. I'm not making fun of you. I'm for the people that aren't actually listening because they tuned out during Zencaster, but they're still looking. They're still here. Yep. Yeah, they can see me, like, signing what you're saying. It makes sense. We'll turn this into the serious, very serious pinball. Yeah. So what I will say is I've been testing the CDU, the Coindor unit. Oh, Travis's camera's gone. It would have been so good if it would have gone out while he was doing his stupid hand signals. But instead, anyways, so the Coindor unit, it's actually awesome. It works really, really well. It does everything I'd want a headphone adapter kit to do. Now, what I will say is it's $150. So if your goal is just to add a sub to the game, there's another company that makes like a $30 part, and you can add a sub. The problem with that is you have no control on the input feed to that, so it could be coming in too hot. You have no crossover. You've got nothing like that. So if your sub, if you want to make your sub sound as good as possible, that's where the bass boost unit comes in, or in this case, the CDU unit would make your sub sound as good as possible. Then if you want to replace your back box speakers, which Travis also did, he replaced his back box speakers with the full amp. Yeah, did you do it, Monica?
    9:32
    No comment. So you can replace just the speakers, and then the next step up would be you get the full-blown system with the amp and everything and replace the cabinet speaker, the back box speakers, and all that. So there's a lot of different options. It just really depends on how far you want to take the audio. And, Travis, what are your initial thoughts? If this was your first time experiencing a Penwoofer or anything, what are your thoughts of the kit, the CDU with the replaced back box speakers? It's fantastic, believe it or not. I'm not saying that just because I got a kit, but, no, it's actually awesome. Whenever you're hearing the bass and just the sounds, the sounds are really rich. and I wasn't sure how it would sound like if I could actually tell a difference between just having the regular sub with, I guess, I think it's like the Penovators. Exactly. In that episode, yeah. And that still sounds great. Like I'm not saying that sounds bad. That sounds great. It's just it almost feels like you're taking this like a step up or even two. It is crazy fantastic. And I've had it put on Godzilla and now just hearing that song go during a multiball, when it works, when the multi-ball actually starts, by the way, Tom, you remember that? So when that actually happens, it's just like, yeah, you can hear the richness of the sound. And there's really no other way to describe it other than that. If you're, I guess, what's the word for it? Audiophile, if you're like really into that type of stuff, you're going to love something like this. And, you know, for a home environment, it's just, it's excellent. And right now, now I'm trying to figure out ways that I can get something like that for all my modern games that I have, especially if I want to listen to the music during it. Like, it's just, yeah, it's a great product. I'm thoroughly impressed by it. And the speakers that he replaced in the back box were made, were designed by Dan with Penwoofer specifically for this application. So, I mean, there's so many tiers you can do with replacing audio. I mean, there's people that replace the back box speakers with the Kenwood speakers that are in the LEs. There are people that use other, they make their own amps. They do a whole bunch of stuff. And I will say, this is the second thing of his I've installed. The instructions are incredibly well done. It comes with everything you'd possibly need, even the quality of, like, wire that's supplied. It's not this dinky little thin gauge. Like, it's legit. He really takes pride in his product. So I would just say if you're looking at improving the audio quality of any of your games, definitely check out Penwoofer.
    12:16
    Tell them Joel and Travis gave them whatever. We have no affiliation to it. We're just saying I just think it was cool that however many months back I reached out to them asking for a very specific thing. Turns out it was in development, and here I am now with that, and it works fantastic. Yeah, I think if you get this, you will not be disappointed. I agree. I'd be very surprised if somebody got this and was just like, yeah, this isn't any better than what I had before. It's noticeably better. Yeah, which is pretty cool. And I haven't, to be honest, I have not hooked up a sub, so I haven't been able to test the sub part of that. But I tested the rest of the system, cabinet, back box, full amp, and now the headphone, and it all works exactly how I'd like it to. It's awesome. It's a fantastic system for sure. I will say right now, if I ever sell my Godzilla and I happen to have another Stern, I will be taking that out of Godzilla before I sell it to move it to another game.
    13:11
    Sorry, but it's not going to go with the system. Yeah, that was that. See, this is why we have a production meeting, so we know what to go to. But I just looked at my camera, and what we're going to go to is Bond 60th. Check this out. Did you want to go to something else? No, no. Do you want me to play mine while you're talking about it?
    13:29
    No. I'm right here, but we were going to talk about Zencastr some more. Oh, it's a fantastic program. Did you know we pay for it now? But we don't personally. It's not like coming out of your piggy bank. It's the great people at Patreon that are helping support us. It is, actually. Yes, it's coming off of my credit card. Anyways, Bond 60th. You can see it right here in the background.
    13:49
    Zach with Flippin' Out has let me borrow one. I now have played it. I've streamed it. Tom, you've had it a few weeks now. Travis, I'm assuming you've still just stared at a box. Is that right? Keith won't bring me the game. I don't know what's going on. I'm caressing mine right now.
    14:05
    So I streamed it, and I actually sent a link to Keith. Keith actually watched the stream, found a bug. Apparently I was robbed out of a hold bonus or something. He's like, you were robbed of 1,000 points, which I needed, those 1,000 points. Did yours come with a shaker motor installed? No, mine does not have a shaker motor installed. I need to install one, but I will.
    14:26
    They forgot to do it in the factory. That's the story. All 500 of them were made with no shaker motor. So now they're being made afterwards. Why would you put a shaker motor? Because it was, you know, anyways. At least they didn't forget the topper. Good. That's true. That topper would have pissed off a lot of people. I will absolutely plug my stream, the Flippin' Out stream on YouTube, because I did a topper cam. That is something that they have not shown well, like in all the footage and all the everything. the topper and how well it's integrated into the game is actually super impressive. Wait, who are you doing that for? What? Who's the company? Oh, flipping out. Yeah, every time I say it, I know Travis, you know, feels like, because he works for They? What are you talking about? They. Stern. Stern has not shown this topper in action, in my opinion, very well. Like, adding that to the stream, I hope I portray how well that topper's actually integrated into the game. I'm actually staring at it now, and it's doing more stuff than what I thought it did. It's genuinely impressive. So a question that's come to my mind is that same topper is apparently supposed to work on the Cornerstone game. Just move over just a little bit. And I hope you want me off camera. Got it. No, I'm not saying that. I'm saying just a little bit more. You can clearly see it in the video. Your hat is in the way from my angle.
    15:49
    Your hand's in the way, too. Anyways. Go ahead. perfect now talk about it that topper is supposed to be on the cornerstone game and i i doubt it's been integrated yet because they haven't sold it but i hope they integrate it to the same level as this game because it's it's truly the light shows that come off of that topper are really impressive um besides that though the game kicks me in the butt every single time i play it Which are high. It's a high. I don't know. By myself, I'd have to check. Not co-op crap. I think I'd buy my 10,000. 10,000? I am so much worse than you, Tom. Why is this a surprise? You just asked him if he's the... And I'm worse than hundreds of other players. I've never heard anybody give that answer back to what is your GC on the game. Because the game has co-op, and it's awesome. But that's where your mind went to immediately. Yeah. How do I want to play it? How do I want to play that game? Do I want to play it by myself or do I want to play it with somebody else? I want to play co-op because co-op on that game is a blast. You should do a stream with Neil doing co-op. Yeah. And you can be a couple others. You're playing four players. No. No, no, no. We know. We've seen you do it before. I did that on Turtles. What are you talking about? I did that on Turtles and I did that on TNA, but I've not done it on this.
    17:08
    You were implying that I did it on this. I did not do it on this. Anyway. I said Joel will stream himself as four players. Okay, no. And then you give me two examples. I jump to conclusions. The game is great. The reels in person actually are really slick, are really slick. That's another thing that does not communicate well over video. And I actually genuinely like the screen in the middle of the play field. It's super convenient to see what to hit. I will tell you what's displayed on that screen is very basic. but the game is fast and there's very little that like stops the ball. So you really don't have much time to look at anything besides the ball. So being able to just look at the screen really quickly and immediately know what's going on is very helpful. The audio in the game is actually really well done. Like as you do different modes or whatever, and maybe it's just, this is, I'm not, this isn't a jab at the cornerstone bond, but when I had the cornerstone bond, the audio at the time was not good. and this is so much better integrated. Now, I know Bond is getting better, so it'll get there. This is a complete game, but I've had a blast with it. My overall stance, though, is, is this a game for everybody? No, this is a collector's item, but if you can afford it and you are a collector, I think you will genuinely enjoy this game because of everything that's in it. It's a super fun game to play with other people, whether it's co-op or against them, just because the ball times are so short and it's a more challenging game. But the shots are super satisfying.
    18:43
    Tom's playing the game. He loves it. No, I was trying to update to the new code. Yeah, we all are. That's a good transition, which we're about to use. But I'm going to put a pin in that transition. It's a great transition. But I like the game. I have reached out to Keith. I've talked to him about the game. And he did say, he goes, I truly – like he said, he's like, I wanted to make an unbeatable game or an almost unbeatable game because the game is hard. to get through all the villains, it's not start the villain modes. You've got to beat all the villain modes. Like, you've got to collect all the bonds. There's a lot you have to do to get the wizard mode. He said this whole time that he's played the game, he's only got to the wizard mode twice. And this is Keith Elwin. So, Tom, if you get to the wizard mode, pat yourself on the back, because that is impressive.
    19:25
    It's a cool game. I don't know. Has your opinion changed at all on it, Tom, recently? No, I still love it.
    19:33
    Great answer. It's not going anywhere. Nobody's going to buy it anyways. Well, it is surprising. There are distributors that still have them, but then there are already people selling them. But that's every new game, right? It's an expensive game. It is. But it is, I don't know, it's just a fun game. I had a very different, in two weeks I streamed Foo Fighters one week, and then the very next week streaming Bond 60th, just completely different experiences. but they were both very, very fun. Very, very fun.
    20:08
    Insert Tom's transition. Oh, updating games. Great, great transition, Tom. You're updating your games. Yes, today, as of 4-20, every Stern LCD game. Actually, I couldn't because my Wi-Fi isn't. Oh, it's poo-poo? Yeah.
    20:25
    Every single Stern LCD game has a code update. So they updated the overall, like, Stern operating system so that there's, I don't know, there's more to do with Insider Connected, but some of the games actually got actual code updates.
    20:41
    Foo Fighters just got an update. I know I was reading through that. There's a bunch of stuff they did there. And Godzilla, they added some new stuff in Godzilla, which is pretty cool.
    20:50
    But Travis, one of the, we had posted that we were going to record, and somebody actually said, has Travis or somebody found any exploits in Foo Fighters? And so, Travis, have you read through the new code release and any of the exploits that you found? Have they patched them, worked them out, or made them worse? I don't know. Thoughts on that? So they slightly nerfed something a little bit just based on, I think it was the formula that they changed. I haven't looked at the readme of it. I was actually trying to pull that up right now. But I heard that, I guess, the formula for the last shot changed a little bit to where it's not going to be worth as much. But I forget what the formula is exactly. It had something to do with, I guess, time remaining and something else. But we're kind of getting in the weeds on that. Basically, the one thing that I kind of figured out in the game that there's really – I don't see this getting patched necessarily because you still have to do a little bit of work. But one of the things that I really enjoy about pinball is that you try to break down the geometry of it, right? And that's the one thing that they can't change after the fact. So you try to find something that's a safe shot or a repeatable shot, or you try to correspond that with what the rule set is. So you could find something that's worth the most amount of points, and then you're very efficient with your shots. And one of the things that caught my eye when I was watching the reveal stream was that Raymond, at one point had hit the targets, and when he hit the stand-up targets, it ricocheted back to, I guess that's the 180, or what do we, what's that called? Which targets? The stand-up, or the drop targets, sorry. The drop targets. The drop targets, yeah. Right, right, yeah. And so, and then it goes to that little 180, right? Yep, around the right ramp. Right, and then it goes back to the upper flipper. So, one of the things on it, and I will tell everybody this, do not sleep on the band mods. Yes. And what happens is, is those targets, when you drop them down, it leaves that paddle exposed. And this is when you drop all three down. So the nuances, and you guys can correct me if I get this wrong, but I believe the nuances, if there's still one up, then that's kind of like what your bonus X would be. If you hit that paddle while, while another target is still up, I think. I thought it was, if you hit the paddle when they're not all down, doesn't it? Right, that's what I'm saying. That's what I'm saying. When there's still one up or maybe two, I don't know. I think if it's just like the paddle's exposed and there happens to be a drop target still up and you hit it, that helps with your bonus X, I think. So it's a good thing? Yeah, yeah. Oh, okay. But I don't really focus on that. What I focus on is getting all the targets down because then that exposes the paddle. So every single time you hit that paddle, whatever insert that you're on, whether it's like, I think it's what, engine, speakers, and something else. It has to be. Is it shield? Is that what it's called? Well, it's a bomb. There's a bomb. Right. The bomb. Yeah. An engine and speakers. Yes. Okay. There it is. Yeah. A bomb, speakers, engine. Yep. That's it. So basically when you hit the paddle, it'll level up whatever insert. It's not speakers. It's a shield. It's a picture of a shield. I thought it was speakers. No, I'm looking at it right now. Engine, there's a shield, and there's a bomb. Okay, actually, here, let's just settle this right now. I know for a fact this is on the rule cards. So if somebody has a Foo Fighters that happens to be, like, five feet away from them, if they could look at the rule card real quick. You want me to get out of my chair? Is that what you're asking?
    24:27
    It's a squeaky chair. Pretty please with sugar on top. Can you go look real quick? So anyhow, I know that this is there. So you hit the paddle, and that will level up whatever you have going on. and basically you can hit the paddle, ricochet it around, hold your upper right foot. Okay, this is dumb. It says bomb speakers engine, but the icon of speakers is a shield. So apparently you read and I look at pictures. That's what I'm saying. I'm saying we're both right. I what? You read. You can read, actually. I know. Oh, okay. Thank you. Okay. So anyhow, so you hit the paddle target. It goes up through that little 180. You hold the upper flipper up, and the ball will hit off there back to the paddle target again, and then it's actually pretty safe coming back to the flipper. The reason why – To hit the paddle target after it goes around that ramp, though, are you holding up the flipper? Just hold it up. And it just trickles over and hits it again. Yep. And I tested this out on – now I think it's been four different versions of this game, and it's held true on all four versions. So different setups, different locations, everything.
    25:36
    And essentially what happens is you're able to level up whatever you have lit a lot easier, fairly safe, and it's part of the geometry of the game. The reason why this is important, once you do start your modes, you can have higher scoring, less shots, more time, and all that really just adds up to just more value overall. So I had basically, I think I played, it was either New Orleans or it might have been Roswell. But either way, I ended up having like a UFO stacked with it, which is your spot a shot. And I basically sped run through the whole mode in less than 10 seconds. Sorry, speed run. Thank you. Through the whole thing. I can read a little bit. Anyways, I did a speed run through it. And I mean, it was worth a lot of points. I forget how much it was. I was shocked at how quickly. the score just like went brr, like the points just taint. Yeah. And, yeah, you have to set it up a little bit. But now that I've done that, I'm kind of like, well, ball one, if I had the ball save, at first I was going for overlord, but now I'm not so sure. And you can plunge straight into the targets. You can. So I've gotten to where I tried it for a few games to where I was just trying to level up, you know, the paddle and level up everything else that's there. And, yeah, I saw my scores just go up a lot more than what I was expecting. So it almost feels like that the way that the game is set up now, it's worth, like, really focusing on targets early on. Because you already know that you've got to hit three white shots. Right. And you already know that you have to hit three white shots anyways, right? So it's bound to happen. So how many times do you have to hit it to maximize it? It was six. and now I think the levels go up to seven. So just to communicate that to people who are checking out, but what's going on is when all the drops are up, it's a scrolling light. So it's going between each one. So as soon as you hit one drop, it'll lock in whatever that is. So if it was on speaker, it'll stay on speaker. Then you're trying to hit the other two drops down. Once all three are down, it's actually a timed thing before they pop back up. So what you have to do is you have to – you've dropped them down, So I think you've got level one or do you have to hit it? You have to hit the paddle once or it's just once you drop them down, you actually get a level. I think with the once you drop them down, then you got to start hitting it. But I think what happened now is that you can actually I think you get like double value or something like that with whenever you hit it the first time. I'm not sure what it is. I know they made an adjustment with the new code, but I do know the way that the feed is. if you're quick with it and your aim is true, you can fully level up pretty quickly. I mean, with what you're saying, you know, you hit it, it goes through. And then on the way down, it's hitting it again. But that's in the time where I think before the drops comes back up, resets every time you hit the paddle. But I think you there's a short amount of time where if you that paddle is exposed, you can like level up your thing. So the best way that I can compare this to is remember, this is Tanya's code, Tanya and Ray Day. Tanya did Deadpool. So Deadpool, if you're going to go into a battle, the team-ups are huge. Whether or not you get Domino or Dazzler or Wolverine is huge. But once you've qualified Wolverine, that's it. You just qualified him. There's no, like, leveling system to Wolverine. This is that same concept of more points, more time, or less shots, but you can just astronomically, like, increase the power-up, which happens to be your van power-up. So it is, to be honest, it's something you could completely ignore if you wanted to. You could absolutely ignore this entire system in the game and just focus on starting cities and working your way towards wizard mode or whatnot. But it is a really cool, like this is definitely going to be, I'm excited to watch some tournaments in this where it's like, okay, what's he going to do? He needs to get this amount of points. Okay, he's getting this thing leveled up. But is it, I forget, but it's once you get it, like let's say I level up the speakers to three, but I haven't started a city and I drain on the next ball, are my speakers still leveled up? Or is it gone when you drain? Or you don't drain, so you don't really know.
    29:54
    That's a good question. Now I'm trying to figure that out. I think I'm pretty sure. Don't walk over your game.
    30:02
    Don't play a game real quick. I don't have my Foo Fighters yet. Your L.E. is on its way, though, right? Yeah, supposedly. yeah it's um i don't know i will just say this is uh this is it's an excellent game this is it's a lot of fun genuine you guys know how much i love in the street guys you guys genuinely know how much i love deadpool and what i will tell you is that shit's leaving foo fighters are staying there's some truth to that so what i'm deadpool is actually leaving deadpool is actually i was just kidding are you serious no deadpool is actually leaving Why? For two reasons. Where are you going? Two reasons. Reason number one, my collection, I can have four pins, and having a game like Cactus Canyon in the house, I realized how much I enjoyed having that type of game, a more simple, more approachable game. I know this is – I know your feelings. So for me to get a game like Cactus Canyon or another CGC-type game, I have to sell a game, so it's between Deadpool and Godzilla. What I will say is when I had that other game in the house, when I had, like I found Deadpool was the game I played the least. Also, when I streamed the game, it is a very linear playing game. So it's like you're playing the same three battles. Even when you get through the next guy, you have to play the same three battles again. They're more complicated. But what did I like about Deadpool or what do I genuinely like about Deadpool? I do like the modes or the battles, and I do like the shot geometry. The katana ramp shot, the way that that squiggles through the play field is awesome. and I love the left orbit to the katana ramp I love that on a premium so in my mind foo fighters when it comes to shot geometry has has like taken that thought of having the ball whiz around and squiggle all over the play field like I I feel like the thing that I liked about Deadpool it went up a notch you know some of the shots and foo fighters and the way that it goes around the play field is super like the kinetic the kinetic satisfaction is huge I really like I almost feel like it's more than Deadpool. And then on top of that, the code feels like they took all the great things on Deadpool and just went further with it. So instead of having three battles, you now have six cities. The team up is now the van power up, but it's even bigger. There's more you can do there. And they're continuing to add things. The bot frenzy mode is awesome. They just added in the new code. It's some sort of radio mode. I don't know. I haven't had a chance to do it. So I just feel it's like Tanya's first effort was Deadpool, and he killed it. But now that he's had an amazing game, I think it's just experience, and he's built upon that and taken it one step further. So I'm not saying, I mean, like, is Foo Fighters better than Deadpool? I don't know if I can commit to that. But some of the things that I really love about Deadpool, I feel like Foo Fighters is doing just as well, if not better. So Deadpool is out, not for Foo Fighters. It is on the way out. The other side of that is they're doing another run with Deadpool, so I know this right now is the time to sell because there's about to be a whole bunch more on the market. So, yes, unfortunately, Deadpool is leaving next week. So this video right here will probably be the last time you see Deadpool. What do you mean it's leaving next week? Like the guy's coming to pick it up next week. Oh, you already have a buyer? I already have a buyer. Ready to go. Tiny tear. Wow. I'm going to miss it. There's no way I'm not going to miss it. I genuinely love the game. But when you have a four-pin collection, unfortunately, I can't do what Tom does and just shove another pin between my games. Tom's shoving a pin behind him. He's like, yeah.
    33:42
    It's unbelievable. So, yeah, I had to make a tough choice. And if it came between Deadpool and Godzilla, I'm sorry. I'm going to keep Godzilla. That's why I couldn't help but giggle. I wasn't laughing at what you were saying, but I was kind of laughing at what you were saying. You were talking about how you were kind of running out of room, and I'm just looking at Tom just sitting there like this. He has a pin directly behind him. He literally could turn. He already has. He literally turned around and started playing. But from your seat, without getting out of your seat, how many pins can you touch? Because you have Rick and Morty outside of frame. Honestly, Joel, I think we had a pinball. We had a pinball podcast first. This isn't normally here, by the way. I know, I know. Where a host in the middle of the podcast just turns around and just starts playing. Yeah. That's ballsy. That doesn't even get on the beat. That doesn't even get on the beat right there. Huh.
    34:40
    Nobody will ever doubt whether or not we actually play pinball. Thanks to Tom. That's true. You don't get this on any of the other Twippy nominees. Geez. So, yeah, so a game is leaving my collection.
    34:53
    Travis, you have – there's two games, right, that just left your collection? Well, no, the Beatles left a long time ago. A long time ago. For the rush. Just tell me real quick, what was the game that you took that left your house today? What was that game? A game that was called Toy Story 4. Oh, boy, oh, boy. It happened, everybody. Boy, are you going to miss that one. Man, my twins were pissed. He has two little girls, and he broke their hearts today. Oh, yeah. Yeah, JJP is clearly – they've cornered the market for the six-year-old female demographic. This is a serious question. Did either of your daughters play the game with you standing behind them, and then they happened to hit a shot and you do a fist pump? Did that happen Yes It did happen Okay So the marketing material was spot on That what I hearing It was they knew exactly how owners would play this game Well, I just, did Monica give you the look of death when it left?
    35:53
    Does Monica know? Is Monica in town? Yeah, she helped me pack it up. She packed the whole thing up. Let's be real, Tom. She packed the whole thing up. She trucked it out of the house. I hauled it out of the house. So Darren pointed. Yeah, that thing is heavy. I hauled it out.
    36:10
    You probably want to do that. Monica, you're doing great. I would wrap it. If it was me, I'd wrap it again. I mean, you're doing a great job. Yeah. I legitimately, I didn't even think of my daughters, like, getting mad about this because they play it every now and again, but not enough to be like, here's the deal. My girls, they don't work. They're six years old. they can't afford a $12,000 pinball machine, so they're, you know, they were just enjoying life. They should be working. Yeah, they clearly need to be. But, you know, I was just sitting here in my office minding my own business, trying to get some work done, and all of a sudden I just heard like a blood-curly scream. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. And I thought somebody was hurt, so I go around the corner. Like, what happened?
    36:58
    Well, she literally, she looked at me, and then she looked back at the empty space, looked back at me, and I could just see tears start welling up. And then she looked back, and I was like, oh, no.
    37:12
    Yeah, I didn't even get to say goodbye. Oh, no. So I realized what she did. She's like, where did Toy Story go? And then she pulled out the daddy. She was like, daddy, where'd it go? And I'm like, oh, fudge. And so I told her, I said, hey, let's play Godzilla instead.
    37:32
    Look here. Yeah, how'd that go? She yelled out, no, I don't want to play that crappy game. Here's what she said.
    37:40
    No, I don't. I'm like, who am I raising right here? I was like, one. I was like, okay, you love Toy Story. You love the theme. But it's like, how dare you call Godzilla a crappy game? It turned from me being like, yeah, I was just like, go to your room and think about what you've just done. go print off I know she can barely read but print off print off inside and say what's that number one game read that out loud well okay so but yeah when she said that I was just like okay I was like I'm sorry and she's asking well are we going to get it back so I had to basically you're screwed man I was just so here's what made it worse guys I was standing there trying to figure out what to say, and she was still crying. So it was, like, one of those things where she was, like, halfway in between, like, yelling and just kind of sniffling. And you know, like, when you get really upset and you see somebody crying and they're, like, shaking their head, like, yes, but you haven't asked them a question because they're trying to, like, keep themselves together? Well, she's doing that. And meanwhile, I hear my other twin's voice from atop the stairwell yelling out, Maddie, why are you crying? And then she comes down. Oh, no. She comes down, and then she sees Toy Story's gone.
    39:04
    I'm like, shit. And it just happened again. There it goes. There goes his camera. Yeah, I wish my camera would have went out while I was trying to deal with this. So she ends up looking at it, and she looks at me, and she's upset too. But see, she's the youngest one, so she doesn't cry. She gets pissed. So she's looking. She looks at me. She's like, where's Toy Story?
    39:29
    I'm just like, you've got five seconds to answer this question. Be very careful what you say. I was just like, and then my other twin, she stopped crying. She was like this, and she stops, and she looks at her, and she's like, dad, sold it.
    39:52
    You were just legitimately scared of two six-year-old girls today. After she said that, I legitimately, I just got out of there. I just went back upstairs. You bolted?
    40:04
    We'll just let nature take its course. Have you talked to them? Have they talked to you since? I mean, it's been a little sketchy. Feelings are still hurt. It's still raw right now. Oh, man. I'm sure it'll take a few days. That's awesome. Take them to Target. Get them a $10 plastic toy. They'll smooth things over. Dad of the year then. Hey, Tom, have you ever sold a game that made Neil cry? Has that happened? No. No? Okay. Just checking.
    40:33
    Oh, that's unfortunate, man. I know I get heckled because I take my friends and family thoughts into consideration with games that I've had. Not me, evidently. Well, yeah. But when Toy Story did leave because Zach had let me borrow one of those, that was one that both of my kids realized. They were like, there was a game they genuinely liked. they genuinely now you know they're they're almost five and three how much they just they like toy story they weren't actually playing the game by themselves but that was a game they wanted to watch me play um so i don't know i i i see i see why there are families that probably absolutely love that game oh my god and i do know i had there was i used to have a main cabinet that i had built um myself and and it had a trackball in it and one of the games that was on it was simpsons bowling and that was one of the only games one of my nieces played. And when I ended up selling that main cabinet, she came to visit once and she's like, where's Simpsons Bowling? Like she was legitimately upset that I had sold it. So how dare we, you know, sell our things. You got to be careful. But, yeah, I probably just officially removed two souls from the pinball buying community in the future. They could have got into this hobby, but now they don't want to get attached to anything because daddy's just going to sell it. We were talking about free stuff earlier. If anybody wants to send a Toy Story 4, back to me. I will gladly accept it. I mean, people are sending stuff to you guys. Yeah, I think Tom's due. I think Tom's due for somebody to send us stuff.
    42:04
    What a beauty that Tom Graff is. Well, Tom, just to review. No more shirts for anybody. I was going to say, the stuff that's been sent to Travis has all been genuinely to make fun of him in some capacity. So, you know, you can just continue to be a true professional like you are, Tom, or just mess up, you know, on a major stage in front of thousands of people, and maybe you'll get stuff for it. So you choose you. You choose what you do, whatever. Take whatever path you want to take, Tom. I was just helping Escher, Jason, and Keith, okay?
    42:36
    I decided to only play two balls, Joel. That's fair. That's fair, yeah. And then you helped Bowen, Carl, and Donovan, too. He's a giver. He gets in that final situation and he thinks, how can I help these other guys? You know? Yeah. I've been focusing on me, this whole tournament, but you know what? Let's see what I can do for these other guys.
    42:57
    That's fair. Is there anything in the code update to help with? To help Travis? To help with Godzilla? He's helpless. Somebody did write in and said there is some sort of opto on the vertical. Like, there is a part there that should have detected that. and they explained it in some capacity, but at this point it doesn't matter. Didn't they change the code to that a little bit to where you can get to Planet X now without – Yeah, that is new. Or something like that? Yeah. Somebody texted me about that, but I haven't read through it. So for me at my skill level, I'm pretty excited to do that. Because as of right now, what? As of right now, the only way to get to Planet X, which is the final – well, there's a final, final wizard mode, which is if you beat everything. Is that King of Monsters? I thought you could play like King of Monsters now as one of your choices, but then you can't play the other wizard modes? Oh, I don't. That's what I read in the read me. Planet X, as of right now, there's only four cities you can go to. This is me. I don't know. I'm not this busy. I don't know. I don't have an answer for you. I mean, you can read it right. You can pull it up. I don't know. I fucking won't.
    44:02
    Planet X, the only way to get to Planet X originally was you had to get through all the cities, But to get through all the cities, you actually had to get through all three tier two modes. So it's a lot. It's a lot you had to do to get to Planet X. But apparently there's a setting where I think once you've played, like, one of all the things, like you only have to do one city but one tank mode, one bridge mode, one blah, blah, blah, blah, there's an option then where you can then choose Planet X. Instead of going to another city, you could go to Planet X if you want to experience that. So you can skip cities now. You can skip things. Is what it is. Okay. So is that city still lit or do you lose the city completely? I think it's, I think, I think it's, yeah, it's basically whatever. I don't know. I skimmed it. I'm going to misquote it. You should read it. But what is cool is for somebody like myself that may never see Planet X on my own, there's another option that I could do to try to do that. And they've adjusted scoring too, where if you actually go that way, things are worth different points and blah, blah, blah. So let's look. I have it right here. Okay. Go ahead. Who's a better reader? I think, let's let Tom read. No, no. Oh, do you have it in front of you, Tom? I'm going to watch this paint track. Go ahead.
    45:17
    I just defended you earlier, Tom. No, it's all right. Go ahead. Hey, I vote Tom. I vote Tom, too. I vote Tom. No, I'm watching the paint track. Okay. Let's not interrupt him, then. Let's let him watch that paint.
    45:32
    Yeah, so listeners can just look it up themselves, too. Oh, nobody's going to read it. Perfect. But it does say play any, like, tank, any bridge, Tesla, Kaiju. Leave Tokyo, select, was it city, or light, select city again. Any battles or cities that are bypassed when selecting Planet X early are no longer available for the rest of the game. So there you go. So it's really, if you go to Planet X. Godzilla, power up. If you go to Planet X, though, you've committed, because is Planet X, once you're done with Planet X, doesn't it stop it? doesn't it stop the isn't the game over I mean yeah but I mean if you're at ball 2 and you finish planet X I think the game's over I think if you go to planet X you're done no would that really happen I think right now the code's always been that way if you finish it the game's over can you imagine somebody doing that in a tournament they're like I bypass They go to Planet X and they're like, okay, game's over. No ball three for you. I don't know. Tom is saying check out the power-ups. What happened to the power-ups? So with the power-ups, when the Planet X unlock adjustment is set to easy, completing the first hurry-up in Planet X will unlock a second choice for Godzilla power-up level eight. The first choice is always lighting the mini wizard mode you didn't pick from level four. the second choice if available will be light king of monsters oh and then any wizard mini wizard mode skip by choosing light king of monsters is no longer available for the rest of the game but that's only if you have it set to early so you could go to planet x and then choose to go to king of monsters and i'm pretty sure at the end of king of monsters the game's over like it stops the ball's over but this is you have to set your game to easy that's not going to happen in competition. This isn't going to be a thing you can do in competition. Don't they have a Carl?
    47:35
    Carl setting? Isn't there like a Carl difficulty? Probably. So what do you think they should rename early? Or was it early? Are you implying they should name normal early? I'm not just implying. I'm saying that they should.
    47:52
    I mean, part of me would be, you know, part of me should feel offended, but hey, if Keith wants to He can name whatever he wants in a pinball machine, Joel, and I will take it with a smile on my face. Joel mode. But I'm telling you, whoever's going to set their game to easy, I don't want them to be confused. I see Joel, medium, hard, and Carl. Which one do I pick? The default King of Monsters initial should be Joel. Wow. Hey, you know, Keith, you do you, man. We're not here to tell you how to do your code. But I don't know. I don't know how I'd – how do I have that conversation with my dad? Hey, Dad, guess what?
    48:32
    They've named a difficulty setting in a pinball machine after me. Oh, really? Yeah. It's the easiest one. It's the one that they have simplified it as simple as possible and removed all difficulty. That is now Joel. Carl, normal, and Joel. Hey, I'm fine. I'm fine with that. You're awesome, Tom. If somebody put an Easter egg in a game in which you select, like, somebody actually picks the Joel mode, right? And then when they close the coin door, the damn game just shuts itself off. No.
    49:08
    Well, in Scooby-Doo, if you try to pick adult mode, there's an adult setting, and it won't let you. It picks it, and then there's a call-out, like, ha-ha, fun try, but not this game. That's actually pretty funny. Yeah, you pick Joel mode, and it would be like, no. You're more. Or what is it? It's like, think better of yourself or something. It'll say, we're all out of rubber bands.
    49:33
    You're better than this. That's what it says. You pick it. You can believe in yourself. You're better than this. That'd be sweet. Like the pinball machine just gives you positive affirmations.
    49:45
    But to get it, you have to pick draw mode. That's what you're saying. Oh, boy. It just has a sit-down talk with you. I'm better than this. A little pep talk.
    49:56
    Oh, man. That is pretty sweet, though, that they figured out a way to pull in wizard modes earlier in the game to where it's not necessarily, like, I guess making the modes up front easier, so the modes are still the same default settings as themselves. So that's pretty sweet. What I think is interesting is in Keith's other games, he's added the ability to just hold down the flippers before you start, and that's how you get to, what is it, Battle Royale in Avengers, and then in Jurassic Park you can go straight to whatever, Escape New Block. So is that available yet? Well, no. On Godzilla? Unless I misread. You guys both have it up. But unless I misread, I still haven't seen the ability to skip directly to something. So that means we're – I bet there will be something, but that's cool that they've obviously put in all this time and energy into some of these crazy wizard modes and now to bring them into the game, but not just handed to you, but, but now in the game and in kind of a more accessible way for a player like myself, that's pretty slick. I think that's really creative to Keith and what's his coder's name? I feel bad.
    51:12
    Crap. Rick, Rick Nagel, right? Yeah. Props to them for thinking that through. I should have said Bill.
    51:19
    Yeah, Bill, Bill, yeah. Billy boy, that code is so good. So I guess then since they updated everything, that means maybe some of the games got, well, I assume since they update everything, everything basically just got like a firmware update. But then some of the games did get code updates. So Foo Fighters has more code. Bond 60th has more code. More than Bond. Or they've done some tweaks. Bond itself. Bond is, no, Bond is now .90. Okay, so they did add stuff. I checked Turtles. Turtles was nothing new. And then Deadpool was nothing new that I checked. But 19 games. There's 19 games. So, I mean, Tom has all of them. So, I don't know.
    52:01
    Speaking of that, Tom, you have another new game. Godfather, man. Godfather is in the house. You have it. Some more.
    52:12
    Thoughts. Thoughts on Godfather. You've had it. You've played it. It's yours. I like it. Yeah? That's why I bought it. So comparing it to, I mean, I was standing right next to you when you were playing it in TPF. Yeah. What's the home experience?
    52:27
    Yeah, now you can really dive in. I'm actually starting to learn how to play the game, like the rules. Okay. Where at TPF, I had no idea what I was doing. I'm like, oh, I'm shooting this, and it's starting. It's like, no, that's not actually what it is. Yeah. and is there, like I know Carl is already just tearing it apart yeah I can't, I'm not doing that stuff yet but that's just the way it works so he's going and finding, well let me do this plus this plus this and do it in this order and boom boom boom boom bang and then boom 32 billion bullets I have not crashed the game yet Has Neil crashed the game yet? No, he hasn't. Neil nearly, like, beat the game, didn't he, at TPF? He almost got through the whole window on the bottom. I think we alluded to this on the last podcast, but the lady behind us was legitimately fast. She was not happy. She was like, get off the game, kid.
    53:35
    I think she had, like, a broken arm at the time, and she, you know, thank God because she probably would have started swinging. Maybe there's a reason for that. Did she have a little shopping bag with her? Did she have the sling? Did she have a dog with her? No, she didn't have a dog.
    53:50
    Did she even know she was at a pinball convention? Yeah, but I understand why she would say it. I was actually listening to another podcast, and that's what the guy said. You know, like, hey, if you're at a show, good on you to be able to blow up the game. But if there's people waiting behind you, maybe you only play ball. I mean, Neal did say. No. He did say. To the losers, go the spoils. No. You paid your entry fee. You got just as much right to stay in the game for as long as you want. Now starting like a two, three, four-player game and being a single player, that person deserves a kick in the nuts. I'm sorry. I'll give you that. Or if you restart a game, like after, and you start playing another. If nobody's behind you, feel free. But if people are waiting, don't do that crap. But to Neil's defense I told him no I was like he's about it What did you gotta do Neil? Crash the game He had two more windows to go And I was like I want to see this wizard mode I want to see what's coming up Because even he was like should I end And we're like no So it's our fault You take her soul right now Or it's another opening You just keep going I'm like go over there I want to play this one It's her own fault. I don't know why she didn't know that was the Neil Graff. I don't even queue up behind Neil in an actual tournament. So, yeah, shame on that lady. She should have known. It was – well, cool. So you have it, though, and now that you're actually starting – what would you say? I mean, you have GNR, I think, still. No, no, GNR I actually traded towards. got a lot of... Well, code-wise, I mean, GNR, once you really start to wrap your mind around all the different patches and different things you can do, it actually can be a pretty complex game. Do you feel like this game is, I don't know, deep? I think it's deep, but it's not super deep. Okay. Like, I think stuff is achievable in the game, I just haven't done it yet.
    55:56
    But I don't think it's, like, the deepest Jersey Jack game, But saying that, I really like the rules.
    56:07
    I like it better in Guns and Roses. It is like a mishmash of some of the rules from other games a little bit, like the cash outs on Guns and Roses.
    56:23
    There is a lot of multi-ball, but, I mean, that can be picked. Yeah, I mean, that doesn't really bother me.
    56:35
    I mean, I could certainly try to turn off all the ball save, and it would be a hard game. It seems fast. But now I know at TPF, a lot of people, myself included, our complaints were because there's so many diverters, you really don't know where the ball is going to go a lot. But now that you've played it, I'm assuming you're starting to understand what's going on. And, you know, honestly, that's how Twilight Zone was the first time I ever played it. You know, when I walked up to Twilight Zone the first time, I was like, I don't know what the hell's going on here. The ball's shooting out over there and over there, and there's Magnet grabbing it now, and what the hell's going on? And you loved it. No, I didn't love it at first. But I did love it a couple months later.
    57:23
    Well, good. Before I owned one. Props to JJP for announcing a game, having a bunch built. they were very they're very they've done that they did it with toy story as well like immediately shipping games and um yeah i mean for you that's my food fighters because you didn't place you didn't place your order where's my food fighters for it's coming it's coming you did not place your order for uh godfather until after tpf so i mean it's you got it really pretty quick and i think there's some distributors that have them like in stock already ready to go so that's pretty cool. That's really, really cool.
    58:00
    I don't know, Travis, if you haven't played any more, you have? Oh, he's shaking his head. Do you want to talk about it? It's a fun game. It's on location here in the St. Louis area. I mean, the only downfall of it is it's $2 coin drop. Oh, no.
    58:20
    It's weird, though. Obviously, the percentage of that compared to how much the game's actually worth, it's really low. But yeah, that's kind of like a mental hurdle too because you're like, oh, there goes eight quarters. Okay. You think $2 is a lot? Zach McCarthy told me that there's a bond 60th for $4 a play. Yeah, but that's in Colorado. Everything's like $1,000 more. That gets hard. You're going to blow through $4. It's hilarious though. It's kind of like I was having this discussion with somebody and it's kind of getting off, but I won't go too deep in the weeds here, but it's just like at what point is coin drop too much? Like, you know what I mean? Four bucks a game is a little Yeah, four is insane. A dollar, that feels right. I feel okay, but putting a dollar into a game with no chance of replays, I feel just fine about that, because it is what it is. I might get $10, $20 worth of excitement for the whole family and everything. It just is what it is. But the $2, I don't know. They just felt a little bit. Yeah, two for three is awesome. That's really good. I like that one. I like doing the two for three playing, and then if there's any replays, just leave them and just tell somebody, hey, do you want to play this? If it's a $2 play, would you feel better if it was five for three, like five bucks for three plays? I would do that. I would do that because then math checks out. I'm saving a dollar, Joel, and then I'll go to 7-Eleven, and I'll get a big gold. And then I'll just keep getting matches and play all night. Well, yeah. There you go. I remember the days when I played Godfather at the bar and paid $2 and just used my replays the whole time just to keep going. People thought you were so cool. You got home and your daughters were waiting for you. I couldn't believe it. Your daughters were waiting for you at the foot of the stairs. Where's Toy Story?
    60:19
    But anyhow, the game's fun, though. It's shining. Go sit on the couch, Dad. So here's the weird part, though. Like, I even – so Monica played it a couple times, too, and she's just like, yeah, I can't – I don't want to pay $2 anymore. So it was one of those weird things that I was almost like, is it worth just buying the game and holding onto it for two months and just playing the hell out of it and then reselling it? And we probably come out on top, technically, because we'll play, like, a lot more than what, you know, $2 per. Like, I was trying to do the math in my head. We would love it. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, it's definitely for six-year-olds. But that's really weird when you start doing the math and you're just like, yeah, I need to buy this $12,000 toy to save two dollars.
    61:05
    Yeah, it's weird. But I don't know. I mean, I'll play it every now and again, but I think it's tough, too, because the rules, until you actually grasp what's going on, there's just so much going on that I felt like I was just putting $2 in for a slot machine and hoping for the best. But it was fun, though. I'm genuinely interested it shoots great and even though it is multi-ball heavy this layout makes sense at least with multi-ball whereas I felt like GNR it just didn't feel like it meshed but this does like I don't feel like it's overwhelming in that sense and so yeah I had fun with it but it was unique because that at the time and it probably still holds true just right now that Godfather was next to I think it was GTF which was next to Foo Fighters. So I basically saw all three of those. And then they did have a Scooby-Doo at this location also, but the Scooby-Doo was already gone. Really? Yeah, it was not there anymore. Any idea why? Probably it wasn't working.
    62:09
    I'm just speculating. Yeah, I have no idea. I just know it was not there. But that being said, I've known other places that have it, and they said, yeah, it earns really well since it's Scooby-Doo. But at this particular place, it was not there.
    62:25
    Yeah, I haven't – I don't know. Have you played Scooby-Doo since TPF, Tom? I didn't even play the TPF. Oh, that's right, yeah. Yeah, I know there's been a code update for that, but yeah. I don't know. Did you see the scores during a multiplayer game yet? Well, that was the other thing too. I got contacted by somebody who was like, yeah, we had it at our, I guess, launch party. And then when the game finished, we realized we had no idea what everybody took because the scores and I got to see it. The scores don't show at the end. Yeah, well, the scores showed at the end. Okay. And then when it started scrolling, it never came back to them, and they had no way to bring the scores up. You can't use the flippers or do anything to bring it back. It was just gone. They can fix that, but it's unfortunate that it made it. You don't play pinball for scores. I don't.
    63:22
    Obviously. But if I went to a tournament, I would be, yes. I scored 800 points on this Bond 60. I was just ripping it. With my brother. Go off.
    63:36
    But no, so I did play GTS. Good thing Stern put the reels on your Bond 60. Yeah, I don't know. the big deal. Four digits is plenty. I'm good with that.
    63:48
    That's plenty. You were saying GTF. I was saying GTF. Yeah. Go for it. You're getting one, yes? GTF. Wait, what? What was GTF?
    64:06
    You have a sound board. That's him. That's Tom talking. You can change your voice? Yes, sure What? You've had this power the whole time? You interrupted me with an air horn the other day And you could have just come in with this god voice Just True I don't know, he's trying to, yeah We'll save it, that's pretty great Is there another side of that? Is there a high voice?
    64:38
    Uh Trellis Robot, got it You are sexy Yep. Ooh, thank you. Ooh, geez. Okay. You should have been the voice for GTF. Yeah, he's ready.
    64:49
    So, yeah, GTF is still GTF. I don't know what else to say about that. It's just I played a couple games.
    64:58
    Did you have – okay, so the games that we played at TPF, those games were played pretty much nonstop for three days. And what we experienced, I was standing right next to you, you hit those stand-up targets in front of the tank, and the ball jumps over your flippers. Did you experience that again on location? I know what you're setting me up here for, Joel. No, that's a genuine question. Did I experience it again? No. It's like a lie. Okay, good. I did not. Nope, I did not. I had no air balls over my flippers at all. Okay. So do you feel, did you see anything? Were the stand-up targets changed? Because they said there's a fix. They're doing something. Oh, no, they were jacked up. I just never aimed for it the whole game. Oh. You didn't have any air balls because you never hit the target. I never aimed at it. No, so I sent – I think I sent you guys the picture. I don't know. It just – so I wanted to give it a chance because, obviously, we played it at DPF. And I was like, okay, you know, you're playing roulette, whether the games are going to be set up great or not or, you know, dialed in. And I saw that this particular game was advertised as just being set up the day before. So Monica was like, hey, let's go have a date. Let's go, you know, play pinball, go hang out, have a beer, whatever.
    66:15
    Get there, and I'm like, I'm going to play GTF first, and I'm just going to get straight into it. So I played it as soon as it opened up because there was a couple other people, and I decided to inspect the targets, and I wanted to see what it looked like. And legitimately, they were – none of them were aligned. One was, like, already up, like, front, just kind of, like, hanging down. Another one was just kind of split. And so I was just like, man, I just can't aim for it. I just played it, never hit it once, except for maybe like in multi-ball a couple of times. But even then, I just never aimed for it at all. And, I mean, my score still went like over 200 to 50. So, I mean, you can get points without touching that at all. Did you have any flipper weaknesses? Like that's something we – We were – there's one ramp in the game. It's a left ramp, and it got to the point where you couldn't even make the shot. The right flipper was pretty soggy. It was. And I had a few times that the ball just, like, would not get caught by the magnet at the left orbit. Yeah, so it's a different – to get up the buck is a magnet. Yeah. There was a few times, even though the shot wasn't really strong, the ball still just went right past it when it was supposed to catch it. So, you know, I don't know. I was surprised by the experience because I will say I did have a Hot Wheels before at my house, and that thing was built like a tank. Really well, yeah. Like no pun intended. It was built like a tank, and then they built a game that literally tries to look like a tank, and it doesn't look like a tank. So I don't know. You'll have a tank. It either looks like a tank or it's built like a tank. You pick one. Yeah, I was just surprised, and I don't know. I mean, I definitely, I'm still interested in the game itself because I think the theme is so goofy. And I think that's a good thing for pinball. I think you do need lightheartedness. I think you need to have goofy. I don't mind that at all. I just, the design is what it is. I mean, it's like anything else. We all know this. If you put targets that are up close to the flipper, it's going to be dangerous. And if you put it smack dab in the middle of the play field, you're going to have issues. And we all knew that, Joel. As soon as we played our first game on it, we looked right at it and we were just like, this is going to be dangerous. And what happened? No more than like five seconds later, you could hear the ball hitting off the glass. And it's, yeah, it's in the trough. And so I just, you know, that is what it is. And I don't know anything that could possibly prevent that other than putting a deflector up on top of that. And we've talked about that before, but even then, it makes for a difficult game in terms of enjoyment when it comes to that. And the last thing you want is a major part of the play field to where you totally ignore it, especially if it's the middle. You know what I mean? Because it's like the only time you ever hear in Tompkins Bouserist that you hear, hey, don't touch the middle, don't do anything like that, it's in competitive settings, right? Like Attack from Mars, you hear that all the time. Like, why not go for the visor unless you're, you know, doing a skill shot or something like that? And so this right here, it's just like, okay, you have something that's smack dab in the middle of the play field that's close to the flippers, and you hit it. Ignore it. Yeah. Yeah, that's the thing. I just think, to me, it's a design flaw if you have to purposely ignore something completely because of how dangerous the shot is. I mean, it's one thing to ignore something because it's just not valuable at that time, but to ignore something completely, not because of the difficulty, but just because it's just like it's total, utter chaos. Like, I don't know. I totally get you. I mean, I'm not a pinball designer, so I probably shouldn't talk, but I would assume don't make a mech that when you hit almost guarantees a drain, and don't make a mech that you only get to experience way deep in the code. I mean, that's something that, you know, if you have an upper play field, but you have to qualify or do this, this, and the other before you can get up to it, like don't do that because you're going to have a novice step up, and that's all they want to do is experience the upper play field, and they don't know how to get to it. you know don't do same thing with like lower play fields there are any sort of mech you know make sure that you can make that somewhat approachable or accessible for anybody if even if it's just like the Duke Kaboom ramp in in Toy Story the first time you hit the left ramp it's pops up and you have a chance to hit it now once you hit it once then you have to do something to qualify to get to be able to hit it again I love it love that that way anybody can step up to the game and experience that mech but then it's not all in your face over and over again but i don't know i i'm with you uh that i don't like i'm not trying to be mean but i don't know how american pinball can save gtf like they sure when houdini had flipper issues they found out it was like a power supply so what did they do They sent power supplies out to previous owners I mean I do think if they find issues with the flippers or if there going to be some sort of fix so that the targets don bend backwards I do trust that they will provide some sort of solution to keep the ball down. So at least you have a fighting chance to save the ball. I think they already came out and said it's all good. Apparently they have two. Yeah. But they're not out yet. So maybe it will come out. But I still just think it's unfortunate that you have this really cool thing that, honestly, you have to avoid. And then on the other side of it is the stream. The stream that Jack and the American guys did, you have American pinball employees telling the audience, don't hit the tank. And it's like, okay, so this is supposed to be a big selling point of your game. and you're telling people ignore it. Don't do it. Just don't do it. And they're doing it. They're avoiding the whole stream. They're avoiding the tank. And it's just, I don't know. I mean, what you're saying is valid, though. I mean, you don't have to be a designer to know what you like whenever you're playing pinball. I think everybody out there that's listening or anybody that plays pinball, their opinion is just as valid on it because everybody knows what's fun for them as an individual. And different people have different tastes in game. I'm sure that there's tons of people out there that do legitimately enjoy VTF. I'm sure they are out there, but it's just, you know, I don't think you have to be, you know, great at designing games or even know how to design a game to know what you like in a mech and what feels enjoyable, you know? And the last thing you want to do is have something, and we're getting into design theory here, But the last thing you want in a game is to have something that's the easy shot to hit, but yet is the shot that will punish you the most. Because that is a recipe for disaster for new players and for young players. And that could lead to a lot of frustration because pinball already, it's difficult for a lot of people that are brand new to it. And if you have, like, for instance, there's GTF next to Godfather, right? And it looked totally different. Like they looked on two different levels. And yet with Godfather, even if you didn't know what was going on, you still knew that you had to hit the Tommy Gunn guy or whoever that is in the very back. And you could tell, you know, what you were doing hitting that. And the same with Foo Fighters, right? You could see the ramps and everything. You could see the Overlord. You could see what the shots were doing. And so that was the thing. You weren't necessarily getting punished for shots that are fun shots. So that's a big difference. And for a lot of people, when you talk about games and money that they're going to spend to bring a game in, you want a game that's just fun to play over and over and over again. Well, thinking of Center Mix, like I know when I first had Stranger Things, like I knew those drop targets in the Demogorgon were death. Like this is, oh, his game? The duck sound. His game updated. the uh Godzilla Godzilla nice the Demogorgon um was it was death but the more that I think about it when you plunge the ball it's going to pretty much guaranteed hit one of the drop targets down and so as a novice if you're lucky and you happen to get the ball through where the one drop target you already hit down you could you could pop that ball back and that's all you have to do you only have to get past it one time for it to drop that ramp and now a novice gets to experience bashing the demogorgon so it's it's a brutal mech but it's it should be accessible enough for a novice to experience bashing the demogorgon and then they know to avoid it like or hopefully they like that's i don't know just to do whatever they want to with it yeah so i just i we've talked about this that if the if the tank instead of it being stand-ups would have been like two stand-ups on a drop target where you drop it down and then the ball feeds into the tank and either comes in a subway or is delivered back to you in some sort of a safe manner that mech could have been so much more like usable but the fact that it's always stand up targets and that ball's going to come back at you at an accelerated rate i don't know i just don't know i don't know but so tom you're buying a gtf I just thought you just love brutal games and you know, what's one more? Well, Tom can speak to this because I know in your collection, Tom, you have Godzilla. You have Stranger Things still? Yep. You have An Attack from Mars. You still have Medieval Madness? No, I got rid of that. Okay, so at least three of those. And you have Medieval Madness for a while. So you have all the major games that have things up the middle that can be fun. So, I mean, what are your thoughts on that? Because you're, I mean, you have more experience than anybody else on this podcast, obviously, with something up the middle like that compared to GTF. I mean, what's your overall thoughts on something like that? All those games don't have it fixed right in the middle of the freaking play field. I mean, GTF has the tank is right there in the middle.
    76:56
    And, you know, the games you mentioned, like Stranger Things, Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, all in the back.
    77:07
    So, you know, it just kind of, I don't know, to me it's like having a roadblock in the middle of the play field. and I look at a game like Iron Man and the monger pops up and down. So, yeah, that's in the middle, but it's not a constant thing. Same with Led Zeppelin, the premium. You have that spinner thing.
    77:36
    But you can shoot through it. You can shoot through it, that's true, and you can make the ramp. uh but uh yeah i mean i i guess i don't want to say it's a poor design but it's not the best i mean i i don't want to knock the game but it to me like joel was saying they should have did something a little different with it and i just i just think it's you know you're trying to avoid something that's the main centerpiece of the game. That seems odd to me. Extremely strange. I wish they could have did something kind of like mousing around. If they were going to have that there, maybe have some kind of quick turnaround, 180 ramp real quick. I think Joel had a great idea, like having a drop target and then popping the ball through there. I think that's what we all assumed it would be when we all started hearing that there's going to be something in the middle of the play field that's like a tank. I had it in my head, maybe it has something that drops down and feeds into the tank and then it's like a ball lock or something. I'm trying to think of a game that actually has something that's stagnant right in the middle that you've got to go around. Black Knight Sword of Rage. Yes, that's what it is. Black Knight has a shield so the ball is going to come back, but you hit it enough then it can go past it safely. But that game, though, too. That's like part of the lore of Light and Ice. But that's just one little shot. It's not taking up the entire middle of the play field. It's because it's so close. If it was the exact same mech and it was instead of halfway in the play field, it was back another little bit further, it would be better. If it was slightly off to the back right or back left. Yeah. Yeah, it's like if it's smack dab in the middle, it's just in your face all the time. TNA has three stand-up targets dead center of the game, pretty close to the flipper, but they're angled. They're angled, yep. So it helps a little. It still can be brutal, and you have to be smart when you're aiming for it. But that's not – when I step up to TNA, nobody's going like, I can't wait to hit those three targets right there. but you're telling me with GTF you have a robot hidden inside the thing any novice is going to want to see him pop up I don't know I think what's disappointing is there's a lot of potential there is and the last thing you want is to just have a lot of potential you never truly cash it in and I don't know how this game can ever truly cash in it's potential because the art package fantastic like So just kiss. Right. The sounds like it's weird. Like, don't get me wrong. It's weird that the dubstep or whatever it is, this part of just what this is, all things considered. But the sound still, though, I like the idea of that soundtrack. I like the idea of something that's just off the wall. Right. And I genuinely love like we joked about last podcast, but the fact that it's so off the wall with tanks in space. Yeah. You know, it's like it's a B, it reminds me like a B horror movie, you know, where you're just going to like watch something. It's just going to be a grand old time and you're just going to be along for the ride. It's absurd. Yeah. And it's just like I wonder what this game would have been if those middle targets weren't there. If everything else was the same and that just wasn't there. And it's just like some type of return to where maybe it's like a whodunit double return. Like I said, I think it would have been great if it disappeared under the play field somehow and then popped up. Yeah. And then you had to hit the tank and then it went away and then you had other things to do. That would have been a great idea. Yeah, if that mech acted more like the Monger than Iron Man, I think we're all having an entirely different conversation about this game. I agree. I'm trying to think like I'm trying to in my head look at different games like Godzilla like let's say like Mechagodzilla was right in the middle how would you feel about that or like the building was right in the middle or you know I have X-Men way down there what if Wolverine was right in the middle you know it's just all these things it's like it's just really I want to say like it's a flow killer I guess well yeah it stands out so much that it kind of overtakes everything else like it overshadows a lot of stuff so the buck up into the lock that's a pretty cool like mech to see it happen when that magnet does work way back there yeah but I mean it's still cool like to me it's funny as hell but it's goofy we're all in on the joke when you see like the AP people come up and they're the pilots or whatever it is. Like, that's fine. You know, it's just, it makes me wonder if just those targets in the middle to a tank game is just, if it's the killer of the entire game, if it makes it to where, if that wasn't there, maybe this game would be a lot more enjoyable. I think it would be, personally. But even when Joel and I were playing it at TPF, like, the first game we played, I was like intentionally just going for the tank. There's no points.
    83:16
    Like it's your main toy. I don't get it. And maybe it might come along in code, but yeah. And that's true. They can fix their own story.
    83:29
    But they're going to have to do something to make it worth your while to go after that. Because you want people hitting it. I think of Pulp Fiction or Taxi, very similar. You got those three drops dead center, but they're angled slightly, but it's not. I think Iron Monger is the best example, I think. You're right. Because that's a toy that you obviously want to bash, and you're going to hit it, and it's coming back at you. But it's not always in a way. Like, middle is fine. It can be done. It just needs to be done for the right reasons, and it needs to be done in such a way that's enjoyable. that it's not a hindrance to your overall experience on the game. And I think more times than not, I think most of us know that those targets on GTF feels like a hindrance at this point. So Bond 60th has a spinning head dead center of the game, but it's only one post. And it goes back to a position. It's always where it settles is in a safer spot. Like at least you know where it is. And, you know, if you brick because you hit that post and it comes flying back at you, that's on you. But no bit of me feels like when I play Bond 60th that I'm avoiding the hat. But it's a post, not five turns. And that was purposely designed to be like that, too, as well, right? It's pretty fun. So there you go. I mean, that's the thing. You can still take these mechs and create them in such a way that it's fun, it's satisfying, it's not. Oh, what was that? What game was that? I think it was Godzilla again. it was Godzilla Travis looked like yeah you got a game hidden in your little room I don't know hopefully I want to keep giving this game chances I'm going to keep giving it chances as the code gets updated more and more I want to play a version of this game in which it's fixed in which the targets are fixed I think we're all rooting for it I want it to be a good game we were all we were hyping GTF we didn't know anything about it the concept of it was something to be pumped about why not have a crazy awesome unlicensed game that just I'm all for ridiculous that sounds great but it's unfortunate I just think where we're at right now just trying to be realistic what can they do to make this better I don't know I don't have that answer But I do trust that American Pinball is going to do everything they can to make it as good as possible. It's got to be in the rules and the code at this point. I mean, you're not going to change the play field. Or some sort of ball save, like do some sort of like attack phase where they give you a five-second ball save where it's just like this is the time to hit the tank, you know, something like that. Like you earn or it's a timing thing where it's like, okay, shoot now. Because this is, if you lose the ball, boom, you get that five-second ball save. It's there right smack in the middle of the play field. I want to hit the damn tank. Yeah. I want to see the robot. I want to beat the robot. Yeah, I get you.
    86:50
    It's kind of our nature, isn't it? Like you see something in the middle of the play field, you're like. I want to hit that. Yeah. We're all like freaking monkeys seeing the. Well, even in. Or whatever the thing's called. I was trying to think of, is there a pinball game where you walk up to it and go, I want to avoid that? Like you're almost excited to avoid something? GCF.
    87:12
    That was the first time I ever felt that way whenever I played it. It was so weird, like coining up and being like, looking at the targets.
    87:22
    Yep, we're not aiming for that. Well, what's funny, though, is the game that I just thought of, though, is the P3 module drained because it has a gobble hole dead center of the play field. But, you know, part of me, I see that and I go, I don't want to hit that, but I kind of want to hit that.
    87:38
    You're looking forward because at least that's a satisfying. So to kill the vampires in that game, you have to hit the gobble hole. So it's like it hurts, but yet it's good. That's the only mech that I can think of That I'm excited to avoid Because I don't like don't hit it Don't hit it but what happens Like I don't know it's this is just Don't hit it just don't hit the tank Is it possible fellas that we might Be overreacting to it I mean is that possible can we entertain that No I don't want to hit something Or is it that we are judging this game Against all other games that have come Out at basically the same time because you got Foo Fighters, which is, it's turned out to be really good. Yeah, you got Godfather, which is a great recovery for After Toy Story. It does make it tough. I mean, tougher. Yeah, and that's what I noticed when I saw it next to Godfather and Foo Fighters. I was just like, okay. Yeah. And people are going to walk up and they're going to see that. They're going to make the comparisons, and that's just the way it's going to be. And Pulp Fiction, too. Now, Pulp Fiction has those drop targets in the middle. they're drop targets and there's a scoop behind it that you can put the ball in you technically only have to hit that dangerous shot once to drop it down to the bigger scoop plus the game cusses a lot so that's yeah so that's cool that makes up for it it does yeah it's dropped an f-bomb the other day when you like you start and it's like i started that i was like whoa i gotta make sure i either turn that off when the kids are down here or just pay attention So what about this then? So this is like the big difference. You know, we're talking about GTF, how you don't want to necessarily aim for the middle because it's like just so damn dangerous, right? But then on the other end of that spectrum, you've got Scooby-Doo in which nothing's dangerous, you know? And so it's kind of like one of those things that it's interesting to me to see these different designs that come out and these different philosophies from different companies. that all these games at some point have gone through the Whitewood stage. And I'm genuinely curious to know, like, the decision-making that goes into this and the type of players that they're having test these games as well. Because I have a hard time believing that GTF would be under the Whitewood phase and nobody would catch that. I know for a fact it has to be people realized what was going to happen. so I'm curious how that still went through and got produced like how nothing about that got adjusted I don't know that's like the biggest question mark for me because there's other parts of that game that are fun like the left ramp I think it's a fun left ramp to hit overall it's fun seeing the magnet on the left orbit like catch go up the bus I like locking the balls yeah I mean there's still fun shots in it There are definitely like homebrews that I've played and you realize you start shooting it and then you immediately experience some geometry things like that shot's not the best or I don't know. I see why this is a homebrew. But it's a homebrew and you realize it's like one guy that he's designed what he thinks is good and he knows how to shoot it. But you're like, if you had a team, I don't think, you know, you'd probably like, that's why you have a place like CERN that has so many great designers. You know, they're all sharing input with each other. And I just feel like American football, Dennis Norman has said he had this design for years. It's been around for a while. So I don't think. We're all probably, I mean, I'll just say it. We're all probably experiencing the reason why this game, this certain design had not come out before. Yeah. Like we're all probably in real time experiencing it. And at the end of the day, it is what it is. It's not like it's going to be AP's last game or anything like that. They have other games coming out in the future. So, you know, I mean, live and learn, I guess. Design is not easy. Pinball design is not easy at all. And what I think is interesting, because just the concept of how do you, I mean, if you want to use me as the joke, that's fine. But how do you design a game that keeps me entertained but also the two of you entertained? And that's, I think, you look at Godzilla and you look at Foo Fighters, both of those have very unique layouts that are just fun to shoot. But they're also, like, very approachable. like and but I think where they go the extra mile specifically Godzilla is like I remember when my dad was playing Godzilla he's like I don't know what I'm hitting but every time I'm hitting a shot it's reacting and it's making me feel like I'm doing something great and he is actually progressing a bunch of different stuff all at once and so I go to stream Godzilla with my brother and it's like hey you're like one shot away from tank or you're you're one shot away from bridge like hey just do these things and and so I think the code they made a very approachable accessible layout but yet the other side of that is like Cactus Canyon you guys both feel Cactus Canyon is too easy so is that layout just too simple to keep your enjoyment like even if the code was deeper do you still feel that layout is just too like blah for you well what it is I'm sure Tom can answer is too i mean when you get to a certain point in pinball and you've played enough pinball your accuracy goes up and when you're accurate and layouts you can pretty much just destroy like any top tier player will destroy a fan layout i mean you take for instance our attack from mars final game at uh cleapin i think like three of us had close to 10 billion points on the game and this is a stern pro circuit setup so i mean that's just the reality of it that when you have a fan layout. You just hit the shots and the ball's never out of control. That's the difference on it. So it can still be fun. Something like that's still fun to jam on. But what do you think, Tom? It's the code that has to make that fun. A thousand percent.
    93:47
    I just think, like you were saying, the ramps are just a little too accessible and things like that for me. and you know you got really wide shots that are easy to hit with the exception of maybe the you know the scoop but everything else is really accessible on the game and you know it's just to me it's just for me it's not a good home game but that's just me and I don't blame you because I just think it's funny that Cactus Canyon is a game that every single person that I heard in pinball media was like, it's a simple game. It's a simple game. It's kind of shallow. Like, it's almost people are warning you. Like, you'll get bored. You'll get bored of the game. And I will tell you, though, I didn't get bored of the game. Like, I saw the end, but to me, the difficulty level of that game was I genuinely felt like the wizard mode was attainable for me every single time I played the game. And that's good. It was just a perfect fit for me and my skill level. I mean, there's certain games that probably people don't want to own because they're way too hard. Yeah. You know.
    95:10
    Ninja Turtles. Ninja Turtles is a prime example of this. And I really like Ninja Turtles. Like, I don't think I'm going to sell mine.
    95:19
    Because I like it. Yeah, I had the LE and I miss it. I mean, it's a punishing game, but it's fun. Yeah, when I start blowing it up, I'm like, oh, yeah, this is fun. It's at my parents' house, so I play it every time I go over there. And, I mean, I've played it enough, and I got those precision flippers, baby, that I can typically get to Half-Shell Challenge every single time I play, which is, I mean, that's probably no big deal for you guys. But, like, that was when I first had the game. like I was nowhere near that and just, and now consistently completing modes, getting to half shell challenge, starting to get initially, I always thought Calabunga that, that final final wizard mode was just, there is no way. And even I thought final battle getting through eight modes to get to final battle, I thought would be near impossible for me to get to, but you keep chipping away at that. And I mean, I think I'm one day I may be able to get to final battle. That may actually happen. but that's a game that I the only reason I've gotten to that point is because I've played the heck out of it because it's a theme I love and if you don't love Turtles and you step up to that on an arcade it's going to kick your butt and you're probably not going to want to drop that dollar to play it again you're going to want to go to something else and I don't know it's unfortunate because people are missing a great game that time mode Half Shell Challenge it's a great mode a lot like more games need to have stuff like that i'm sorry i agree that's that sped run yeah challenge yeah i speed run it's so you know it's fun to do sped run i will tell you though genuinely one of the insider achievements for half shell challenge is can you beat it in under 100 seconds and i that was a game oh yeah there are two things that i have to give dwight credit for this because there are two things that I genuinely was like grinding at every time I'd go over to my parents' house. And that was one of them. And I had gotten to under 150. So there's 200, 150, and then 100. And it was just, every time I went over there, it's like, I got to do it. I got to do it. And I finally did it. And like, that's doing that was one of the most satisfying things that were done in pinball. Like that was the equivalent of some of these wizard modes that I've achieved. And I just like, I finally did it getting into that. And then the other thing was upgrading all my turtles to level 4 because that's something that with Insider Connect you carry into. So it's almost like a badge of honor in my mind. I've done it. I've put in the work. I've put in the time that it takes to upgrade all your turtles because level 4, getting them to level 4 is not easy.
    98:02
    The cool part is though, the game totally changes. If you have a level 4 turtle, it's an entirely different experience. And I don't know if this is available, but I wish that there was something in there in the menu in which you could automatically play with fully leveled up turtles. Like, just soup them all up and enjoy it from the start button. Because I think that that would be a total game changer, because it does. It changes. You can do it. Completely. So that's my only complaint right now, is so I have all my turtles leveled up. So every single time I log in and play a game, my turtles start at level four, which is awesome. I love it. But there are certain things like Ray Day has gotten to Final Battle or Cowabunga. And one of the ways you can do that is to get to the Neutrino Pizza Party mode. To get to Neutrino Pizza Party mode, what you have to do is you have to get through one level of training. So that's not bad when you're starting at level one because level one training is not that hard. And then you can get through to Neutrino Pizza Party. And if you do really well in Neutrino Pizza Party, it'll give you one of the requirements you need to get to Cowabunga. So he was getting the April hurry-ups. That's the one that's probably the most of a grindy thing to do. So it was just like the hardest thing was just given to him. But now if I do it, getting through level four is a challenge. And that's just for me to qualify that. So it would be really cool if there was a way as somebody that has qualified them to be able to decide I want to play at level one. the way you do it right now is it's a permanent thing. You tell it, I want to clear my levels, and you go back to level one. You could just put the game to competition mode, and then it'll start at level one. That would work. Or the other thing is I just play without being logged in. The problem is I want those achievements. Yeah. If you put it in competition, you can still use your Insider Connect. Can you get achievements in competition mode? Oh, yeah. Okay. Well, maybe that's the way to do it because it's like if there's ever a chance that I actually get to Final Battle or Cowabunga, I better get that achievement. So it would be cool at this point. I would love it if there was a way to select I want to play level one without permanently losing my levels.
    100:15
    But it's just cool things like that. Props to Dwight for coding that into his game. That carrying over levels I think is really cool. It really does change how the game plays. and then on top of that, that half shell challenge mode is awesome. So more of that stuff. Raymond, I know you're listening.
    100:34
    Raymond, make it happen. And that goes back into it too, that hopefully the listening audience out there realizes how difficult it is to code games as well. And so it's incredible that these options are in the games with co-op, with, you know, getting the wizard modes up early or even getting different types of game modes in. I mean, that's all pretty sweet. It's awesome. Yeah, and all things considered, when people talk about the pricing and everything, it's like, you know, go play a solid-state game and see if you can get the same out of that. I mean, you might. You just enjoy ripping spinners all day long, but, yeah, these games, they have a lot in them, and that does make replaying them over and over and over again a lot more fun. 100%. You don't want this expensive box of lights that we all have be stagnant, you know, of just like, well, I know if I play it, I'm just going to see everything I see in the game. Like, you don't want the code to be so shallow that it's just boring. Or, oh, I beat it again. I'll play it again in two months. And that goes into how the design is, too. You know, I mean, at the same time. So it just depends.
    101:45
    Because think about it. You said the same thing with Cactus Canyon. You feel like you can get to the wizard mode every game. You keep coming back for more. I do. Something in that hits you. Yeah. And so that's, I mean, that's the mark of a good game. If it does that for you, I mean, that's good. And there's no shots in there that you're avoiding. It's because my lock is lit and so am I. That's why I keep, that's why I keep. I love it. I love that game. I really, Cactus Canyon, I'm genuinely looking forward to buying. Like I want to have that. And because there's also the hope of, like, I love it where it's at today, But there is new code coming. And to me, that sounds great. Like, I'm looking forward. Whatever they're adding, sign me up because I already know where the game's at. We got to put you on the spot. Uh-oh. Are you ready, Joel? Yep, I'm ready.
    102:32
    Assuming you're in a reality in which Bond 60th and Cactus Canyon are the same price, what game are you buying? This is not a nice question. The answer is Cactus Canyon. I would buy Cactus Canyon. I would buy it. I would buy Bond 60 straight up. I know you would. And I haven't even played Bond 60. I know you would, but that game, what Bond 60th is, super appeals to you because I understand it's a callback to everything great about older games, retro games. It's a fast game. It's a hard game. So why would you get Cactus Canyon? What does Cactus Canyon have that Bond 60 doesn't? I really. Is it the cowboy? You prefer cowboys than red spies? No. Like the bashing Bart and seeing his hat go up is cool. But to be honest, I love the quick draw. The target's popping up and it's quick. It's just like immediate. I got to hit that thing. And it's satisfying every time I hit it. I like the humor in the game. I genuinely like the humor in the game. Like that's one of the reasons I like Deadpool. That's why I like Godzilla because of how campy it is. And it's just, like it's just fun. Like it's just fun. and I also, it's a game that my friends and family also find fun. And that's something that I know what Bond 60th has is the brutality and the point chasing and that depth, which I can appreciate because I like code, but you put a novice in front of Bond 60th, they don't know that. Yeah. So I got to go the other way with it because I know Tom loves his Bond 60 and he would push Cactus Canyon out in traffic. So Tom.
    104:11
    If they were priced exactly the same, which one would you get and why? Bond 60th because I would push Cactus Canyon into traffic. What a silly question. He paid $20,000 for a game. I did not pay. I know, I know, I know. We gave it to him. He already made that choice. We paid him. Clearly he picked Bond 60th over. What about Bond 60th basically checks all the boxes for you over something like Cactus Canyon?
    104:41
    replayability. It's not hard enough. Yeah, Cactus Canyon isn't hard enough. Okay, then let's pick another game then. Because I'm curious, because this is what fascinates me in conversations with people and figuring out what they like, what they're into.
    104:58
    I like all the drops and the loops and spinners and all that. It's just kinetic flow, I guess. Is it fair to say, like, what about Bond 60 versus Godzilla?
    105:13
    Yeah. Okay, yeah, that's actually a great question. What do you like about Bond 60 better than Godzilla? I mean, you may still like Godzilla better, but what do you like about Bond 60? Wait, do you like Godzilla better? That game's a lot faster when I play it.
    105:28
    Like, if you could buy both, you could buy your Godzilla LE or your Bond 60. Like, if I had to choose between the two, what would I pick? Let's say Bond 60 You could get that for like $3,000 Less than Godzilla LE Okay Which one would you get?
    105:47
    Knowing everything you know now You have plenty of time on both games I mean I'd probably pick Godzilla Just because of the Depth of it And Everything But yeah What about Bond 60th and a Pulp Fiction LE were the same price, which would you pick? Because I think Pulp Fiction has more... That's a good question. I like that one. I think it has more toys. I think it has more depth. I'd probably go Pulp Fiction. Just because I like the theme a little better. So is Pulp Fiction actually a single level game? I think so. I would still say this. Oh, because of the subway? Are you saying the subway? Oh, there you go. It's not a ramp, but it's got the wire form. Yeah.
    106:40
    They snuck something past Quentin Tarantino, didn't they? He didn't lift the plate. No, he gets his game. I think it's interesting, though. Like, the longer I've been in this hobby, I've started to really value the variety in pinball and wanting to have different things Like I don want to have just four modern sterns I want to have variety And that where like that one of the reasons I love TNA because I think TNA feels different But now I feel like there are options like that, like Bond 60th, Pulp Fiction. You get these fast, more simplistic games, but still have a lot to them. Yeah. And I think it's good to have some variety too, you know? Yeah. You know, because some days I just, I want quick games, so I'm going to go play, you know, Flash Gordon and Frontier. And other days I'm like, you know what, I want to grind out Godzilla and see if I can get to Planet X.
    107:40
    So it's just, you know, different strokes for different folks. That's why Kimball's so great. It is cool, too, when you really look at this, guys. There's multiple games now that are modern games that are just single level for the most part. So Joel kind of touched on this, and Tom, maybe you got there quicker since you, you know, your pinball stuff, all your pins expanded rapidly once you started buying pins. But you get to a point, and we've all hit this before, when you buy a couple of pins, modern pins, all of a sudden you start seeing other pins from different eras and everything. But there's something about, like I love the old school stuff, the solid states and all that, but there's something about a modern game that's like that, yet it's modern. So like Beatles and 007 60th and TNA, just games like that. So I'm very curious to see where pinball goes in the next five years. If there's going to be more manufacturers trying to kind of touch on this, because there will be people that want to see that. It's obvious that that's happening because otherwise Pulp Fiction wouldn't do what it's doing. You know, when you mix in the right theme with something like that, I think you have something special with that. This is a good segue for Pony Factory. Oh, no. Here we are. I'm looking at the time. We have like 10 minutes. I was like, we're approaching the two-hour mark. I've got to play my EM, guys.
    109:16
    This is part of my Pony Factory. Well, just one last thought was that's one more reason why I really like the CGC remakes, because it reminds me of an older Bally Williams game, but it actually feels modern because of the light show, because of the expanded DMD. Like, that's, to me, I don't feel like I'm just putting an old game in my lineup. I actually feel like I'm putting a modern game, but it has that simplicity and the approachability of some of those older ones. So, I don't know. I'm all in. But Pony Factory, Pony Factory.
    109:52
    Yeah, yeah, yeah. What did you think of the trailer, Joel? Did you like it? No, I mean, no. Did you like it? We talked about this the other night on Flippin' Out with Friends. It's just one of those things where if the price was three grand or something, then okay. Oh, it's not three grand.
    110:10
    It's potential. But even four grand. It's the same price. It's like under a Stern the pin. It's the same price, though, as a Stern Pro. And it's just hard for me to sit there. And it's like, what are they bragging about? They're bragging about, you know, a full-size back glass. They're bragging about Canadian wood. They're bragging about interior art blades that go all the way down. I mean, is it a brag or a spelling thing? I was watching the trailer and literally getting a migraine because they, like, kept going back and forth and zooming in and out of stuff and I was like I can't even see anything but I'm just saying as somebody if you were new to the hobby or what but you're sitting there and it's like okay I got seven grand to spend on a pin like I just why would you pick and I don't mean this in a mean way but like I just don't know why you would pick honey factory yeah I get over you know any stern providers you can get a used cactus canyon for under seven thousand dollars Like, there are so many other games that, like, well, so what is it? And I don't know, like, I know plenty of people that love dad jokes, myself included. But I've never, like, Pony Factory is not a theme that you can, in my mind, that you would be like, I'm ready to spend $7,000 on that. And it's like, is there something unique? Like, this probably, I probably shouldn't bring it up, like, Deep Root. Deep Root, at least Deep Root's play field, their cabinet looked unique. The pin bar looked unique. They were bringing something unique and original that people are like, well, that seems pretty slick. The funny fact here, I'm looking at that, it's like, what are you bringing to the table that stands out? It doesn't look like a tank, like an electric tank force. It just, what about that game justifies trying it out for $7,000? And it's not, I'm not seeing a revolutionary play field design.
    112:02
    I don't know. I want more pinball, and I want them to be successful. My view, my takeaway from Pony Factory is I hope people – there's an update. I hope people buy it that just have the money to do it just because I don't – I hope this is their worst game. I hope this is enough for them to establish themselves as a manufacturer so that they can continue to improve on what they're doing and make good pinball. Is that going to get you a Pony Factory? No, I don't know. So, no, I just, but to me, this is just, it's, you know, it's not like it's a new company that's coming out with just like, whoa, I'm ready to dive in on, look at the designer they got. Look at the artwork. Look at the, like, this theme or the license. Like, sure, I'll take a chance on that because I love that band or I love this license. Like Big Lebowski, you know, it's like people went all in on that because of what it was. this though it's like i don't it reminds me of mafia team mafia or the that was a game i think it's the same people that are building it there's a lot of stand-up targets there's so many and they brag about it 16 like haggis so haggis made kelts there's very few people that were loving kelts but what did haggis bring they brought that brand new playfield design they brought a screen inside the play field. They brought unique things that people were willing to try and then luckily they had enough success with Kelts that they were able to go and now do what they're doing. That's what I'm hoping Pony Factory is. They have enough success with this game that they can go further. Yeah. The hurdle right now is that if you are coming out with a pinball machine that does not have a licensed theme, you better be prepared to create the atmosphere. around it. So, for instance, like GTF, that's what makes people interested. They create the atmosphere around it. No matter how outlandish it is, they went all in on it, on creating that atmosphere. And so that's what made TNA so great as well. The punishing game, but you know what? The atmosphere of it, the sounds and everything, and how, you know, bass drops and everything. The beats. Yeah, exactly. So, you know, when I saw this trailer, I didn't get the sense of anything to do with atmosphere at all. I was just, I was confused. I didn't know what was happening. I didn't know whether, you know, they needed to recharge their potato that they were filming on. I was very confused. It's just, I don't know why they did that. And the reason why it's so confusing, because I don't doubt that hard work went in to designing and to producing this film. So it was just really confusing that the trailer would come out like that because it's, I can tell you, and I'm sure there's a bunch of other people saying the same thing as somebody that is involved in selling pinball machines for a living. It's very difficult to get somebody to part ways with their money, with thousands of dollars, when that's what you have to show them for it. Whereas like we could turn around and show off, you know, old fiction, look, look at this trailer. Like you put those together with like, you know what I mean? And so that's the biggest thing. If you're going to market something, you have to make it to where it keeps people's attention and it gets them hooked. And if you don't do that, then it's like your product is going to get written off so fast. So this is – and I'm really not trying to be mean, but I just think – You keep saying that, Joel. Go hard in the pain. So here – It's tough love. I'm not in marketing, right? I'm not in marketing. But I watched this video, and, like, how do – the drop targets. The drop targets, in this video, they zoom in on them. Like, one of the stickers was peeling up. Like, and the other one was, like, bent over. And I'm like, don't zoom in on a drop target and show that your decals suck. Like, put new decals on it before you film this. Or the same thing with the back box. They show the board that they're using, and a bunch of wires on the right are – There's electrical tape on them. Like, they just spliced them in. So, clearly, they're still figuring it, like, and to be honest, even Stern isn't perfect at this. Stern has shown games where there's, like, spot welds on ramps, and it's probably a production game. Stern, if you look closely at the Mandalorian, there's an actual bug on the play field during their trailer. Okay. I'm kidding you're not. Or it shows, you know, like dimples, you know, on the, you're zooming in on these, And it's like instead of having this pristine, perfect play field that you're trying to sell, you have a it's like you got to be. These are things that people are seeing or I've seen it even in Stern where it's like or other. I don't know is other ones, but it's like they'll do a slow mo video of watching a ball and you see a plastic like bouncing in the background. And it makes you wonder, is that screwed in all the way or whatnot? So, you know, nobody's exempt to it. These are things that I know we're all seeing. so if you are a manufacturer and you're trying to show them this is what we're doing where we have high quality cabinets, we have this, we have that you can't have that, you can't have a drop target with a decal that's coming off like the GTF trailer, it looked like the rubber that is between the flippers that comes up, it looked like it was a piece of paper that was a label on top of that, that wasn't cut out well like little stuff like that you're you can't i don't know that you're trying to sell a product and if that's the product you're going to ship out okay maybe that is a realistic expectation but if your game has wear on it when you're filming the trailer for it why would we not assume the brand new games are going to get the same amount of wear when we start playing them um i don't know just a thought i'm not marketing i feel bad somebody made that video and was proud of it and sent it to their parents and their parents told them they were proud of them. No, you're trying to take that away from you. But you you are a potential customer. Like, here's the reality of it. Even if none of us buy the pinball machine, we're all in pinball. We are all automatically potential customers. And so, therefore, any video that comes out from a pinball manufacturer deserves to be judged because we are all the potential customers. So everybody is well within their rights to have any critique over something because you either like the marketing or you don't. If you don't like the marketing, guess what? You're probably not going to buy the product, which means whoever made whatever video there is or whatever, they did not do their job. They have to explain what the game is. They have to touch an emotion for why you need to be interested in this. Why does this product stand out above everything else in the industry? That's what has to be done. And it doesn't mean you have to do it to the tune of thousands of games. Sometimes you just have to do it to the tune of 50 to 100. But if you have a hard time even doing that,
    119:07
    that's the thing. You've got to get these things professionally done. You've got to get the lighting. We're in a good time for pinball, but we're also in a weird time for pinball because there's just too many games out right now.
    119:20
    At the same time. It's awesome that there are tools out there that make building your own game easier. I'm not saying it's easy. That's far from that. But there are so many homebrewers out there, which is so great. I love it. I love that there are people that are building their own games. But then you have all these companies. I think, what was it, Tilt Bob? Tilt Bob down in Florida? They're talking about, that's the guy that made Elf. They're saying they're going to start making their own games. I love it. I love it that there's companies that are willing to do this. But you've got to realize, it doesn't matter how small you are, we are going to compare you to Stern and JJP.
    119:58
    JJP's trailers are so good. And then they get straight down the middle to come in and do these featurettes. And they get professional marketing teams to build these ridiculous trailers with fist-pumping dads and little girls that are pumped playing Toy Story. I mean, they're going to have it.
    120:15
    But that's what we have. I'm sorry, but we're going to compare you to that. And the only way we wouldn't compare you to that is if your product is one-eighth of the cost of the big boys. But if you're coming in at the same cost as a Stern Pro, I can't give you a pass on your cross-target label being ripped.
    120:36
    No, you're right. And this goes into, because I'm sure there might be a few people out there that are thinking about manufacturing pinball or they're involved. But, yeah, it's so damn important to make sure that you get your initial launch correct and that you get the attention that you want to get that's correct and it's positive. So if you put a trailer out, right, and one of the first things you do is turn off the comments, it's not a good sign. And I can almost guarantee, I haven't even looked, I can almost guarantee, as a matter of fact, I'll put any amount of money, I can almost guarantee that the Honey Factory comments are turned off. because you don't put a video out like that without it. You would get crushed.
    121:23
    There's no doubt about it. And rightfully so. If you're going to come with prices like we talked about that's very similar to competitors, that are excellent at what they do, you are going to be judged by that measuring stick. You're not going to get a pass. Spooky has gone through the same thing to where they've been judged at the very same, and rightfully so because they've earned the right to be judged too. That's what a lot of people forget. It's not just because of their pricing, but they've earned the right to be judged because Spooky's put in the time, and they put out a few good pinball machines. I mean, with Rick and Morty, with TNA, and Alice Cooper had its positives to it. So, I mean, that's the thing. You've got to find a way that if nobody knows about you and you haven't built that loyal fan base, right, You can't get away without any marketing that is just very precise and very geared towards who you want to purchase your product. I totally agree with you. I think the one exception is if you have some crazy license because there are people. Tom admitted if Rush came out with one pop bumper, he would have bought it. There are people that will go all in on it. They don't care who makes it. But here's the difference. Here's the difference, though. License, they cost money. Yeah. And if you're willing to pay that money for a license, you've got to be willing to shell out to let people know, hey, here's why you need to buy this. Yeah. Because here's the problem. You will get the people up front to purchase based off FEMA loan. But after that, like, do you have your longevity? Well, you also, you bring in manufacturing. I mean, you look at Halloween. They sold out day one because of the license and what it was and blah, blah, blah. And then once the game started coming out and people started running into issues, people are flipping spots and selling them for a loss. So there's no guarantee even if you sell all your games. At the same time, though, that means that they did sell all their games. You know what I mean? They did. That's a little bit different situation. But when we're talking about somebody that doesn't have the ability to sell several hundred games, right? They don't have the ability to manufacture several hundred games. It's like, okay, you've got to find a way to get the line going. So I think that you rightfully, if you don't have a licensed theme and your product, your design isn't going to be a S tier level. It's just not going to be. It's very difficult to do. You've got to find a way to get people's attention and to get the right attention.
    123:59
    And I don't, watching this trailer, there's no way that they got the right attention. What I think is interesting is the most unique thing that I saw on this game, Pony Factory, is the speakers. If you look at the back box, it looks like, because it's a full back glass, the speakers actually come out of the edge of the back box. So it looks like they've routed that through, and the speaker's actually mounted to the side. Like, that actually looks unique. They don't mention it once. So to me, it's like, if they're not mentioning it, Is it not an audio improvement? You know, like I know Deep Root once again was like, you know, it's like seven point surround system. Like they had, remember they had speakers in the coin area and they're like, oh, you have crotch level speakers. But at least they're like, okay, this is unique. Maybe this would actually be a unique, but I don't know. I have to look now at this YouTube video. Are the comments turned off?
    124:57
    Okay. So I'm looking at it right now. 1K views. It's pretty sweet. Somehow, something's got to be off because it only has eight likes.
    125:07
    After one kick. I don't know how that's – I don't know what happened. That was me. Comments are turned off. Yeah, the comments are turned off. There you go. So, like, Elements, people have said that. Like, well, Elements sounds a lot more interesting to Pony Factory. And it comes back to my original comment. I'm not trying to just tear down the company. And even the comments we've made about GTF, to be honest, like, we're rooting for you guys. We genuinely want, like, I want GTF to be as great as it possibly can be. And it's doing a lot of things right. It just has some things that hopefully they can get better. Pony Factory, sure, there's a lot that I would like to see better, but I genuinely hope this is the worst game they make, but it's enough that they get the foot in the door and every game after this only improves and gets better.
    125:54
    Because there's stuff like, okay, the whole, like, metal rack system that they have the game. And seeing that the play field had printing on the backside of it to show where to mount things and stuff. Like, they genuinely, they clearly care. They want this to be good. Hopefully this is the start of a great company. It's just, I just don't know how you come out swinging, ready to compete with the big boys and not, I don't know, like you've got to realize you are going to be compared to the big boys. You have to be at that level in quality. Yeah. Well, it's also, too. you've got to figure out a way to get your product priced as such that you at least get entry level into the market. So if you're already priced yourselves out of the market, like you're screwed. You're royally screwed unless you have a ton of money backing you. It's just to launch a product, and that's before I got into pinball, that's kind of my background, launching and investing in different products. It is very difficult to get something off the ground unless you get that right off the bat. It's very hard to pick up that same space afterwards several months down the line because people make their opinions so quick. And once they make up their mind, guess what? The next shiny thing that goes in front of them, that's what gets their attention. I get it. Well, we're over two hours, so we should probably wrap it up. I don't know. Is there anything else we missed? I think Tom is awake. I'm just happy Tom's caffeine, even if it were off. Tom, like, trooper through that. Dude, he played some pinball. He updated some games. He recorded a two-hour podcast, somehow managed to update at least three games that we heard, and played multiple games of pinball.
    127:45
    And it was only one game that updated. That's the sad thing. It's the same thing. All right. Let's plug it up. Travis, plug away. Plug all the way. Yeah. You guys can find me right here on the Triple Drain Pinball Podcast, or if you're into stalking, I'm on Facebook.
    128:04
    You guys can find me there. I'll friend you. It's fine. One last thing. I'm going to let you plug, Tom. Don't worry.
    128:10
    So this is something I'm excited about. I was trying to get creative with merch. initially I threw out this idea of like a small towel and I got I got pooed all over because Travis thought it was the dumbest thing ever but I thought a small towel you know competitive players would maybe carry it around dry their hands off so I thought it would be cool I thought it would be a cool thing to see competitive players like carry around a triple drain towel like a carabiner or something hook it on their belt loop I thought it was a great idea Travis no he does don't so I was like what's a piece of merch that we could do that I think is awesome And believe it or not, I've started the process of getting quotes on lunchboxes because I was so hyped about the GTF lunchbox and it's not here. So why not get a triple drain lunchbox? So I'm looking into it. They would be black. It would have our Hydra logo. It would be real slick.
    129:00
    Would it have a thermos in it? No. I mean, it could, but they're expensive. to all of our married men out there tell your wives get you a triple drain podcast lunchbox what are you going to we have t-shirts check out silver ball swag Fox cities now has silver ball swag check it out silverballswag.com it's awesome we have t-shirts we got hoodies we got hats we got all that but my thing is like is there something else that would be cool in pinball look at all your knick knacks back there Travis imagine instead of your little never mind, we can't see it because this camera's out.
    129:36
    Imagine a lunchbox on the shelf. I think it's cool. You've got your little... Didn't we for the past 20 minutes just talk about how it's difficult to market certain things?
    129:50
    I'm throwing this out there. The other things we could do, we could do posters. There's cool metal posters. You could do coffee mugs. You could do all these things. A Hydra poster? Yes, you could do a poster. See, that would be sweet. Maybe I'd want that. Yeah, I would want that. I mean, something to hang on to my wall. I will take credit for this. I did tell Joel. I was like, hey, why don't we do posters? That's the thing, though. So far, props to Will at that. There are things. There's a website that it all goes through. Posters is an option. Metal, paper. Why not koozies? I don't know. Koozies. I'll look at koozies. Why aren't we starting an OnlyFans page? Yeah. Why not baby onesies, Joel? We can do baby onesies. These are things.
    130:34
    Lunchbox was the only thing. Triple J underwear. I think there's underwear. We could do this. These are things that we could do.
    130:41
    These are things we could do easily because it's all print on demand. But the lunchbox is something we'd actually have to put in an order. What I'm sensing from you guys is you think it's a dumb idea. What I'm asking is. No, we should do a lunchbox. We will sell one of them. We should definitely do a lunch box. Realistically, here's what's happening.
    131:03
    Maybe two. Joel will buy it. The minimum I would order. He will hate to buy it. I guarantee when it doesn't sell for like the first month, all of a sudden we'll sell like 12. The minimum I would have to order is 24.
    131:19
    So that's the thing. 24. Believe it or not, I assumed you knickknacks would want one. So that's three of 24 that I think we could account for.
    131:30
    Let him talk, Travis, when you get the floor. I'm trying to save him, Tom. I think it's cool. Don't do it, Travis. Let him go. You're right. Okay, go ahead. Sell Tom and I on this, since we didn't have a pre-production meeting. I don't have to sell you. If we got him, I would give you one. No, no, no. I'm not saying you actually sell us one. And I'm saying sell us on the idea that this is a good idea. I don't know. All I know is I know how excited I was to get a GTF lunchbox. So if I can't get a GTF lunchbox, why would I not want a Triple Drain lunchbox? That's my thought. I just thought it would be cool. I thought people – I just think it's cool. So my question to the audience, if you think it's cool, please write me an email at tripledrain.gmail.com or send us a Facebook message. if I genuinely get 24 I'm buying them and I'm going to love it and you know what Travis maybe you won't get one but I'm excited about Triple Drain Lunchbox somebody's going to email you telling you this is the greatest idea Joel and you're just going to go buy 24 and then we're going to be stuck with 24 it's a few hundred dollars to buy them exactly that's what I'm telling you to be honest to sell them we're looking at probably like 40 bucks but somebody's excited about it imagine how many hot pockets you could put in our triple trail we need 20-30 people to buy a lunchbox so Joel can get one email or facebook otherwise if I hear nothing what's funny is the distributor is asking me about it he's like hey I sent you that quote do you want to I bet he is He's like, I got somebody. They're going to get lunchboxes. Maybe Zach would sell them at Flippin' Out. No, I just, whatever it is, it's just if the idea of, if somebody heard lunchboxes, they're like, that's pretty cool. I'd buy that. Great. Let me know. Otherwise, we'll find something else. You can put your sandwich in there. You don't have to put anything. You can just put it on the shelf. Okay. Can of Coke. You want to market this as a collectible. Can of corn is what you're saying. I understand most people don't need a lunchbox, but it's a cool thing you could put on the shelf. So what would be on the front of it? Would it be our logo? It would be a black lunchbox with the Hydra logo.
    133:53
    Would it say Triple Dream? Yes, that's part of the logo. It would not have our face unless that's something that people want. But fine. The thing is, I've run out of wall space. I love the idea of posters. I don't know why I don't look at wall space. But if people would prefer a poster, great. We can absolutely do paper, poster, matted, metal, doesn't matter. You got my blessing. Let's do the lunchbox. You sold me on it. I need the blessing of 23 other people driving it. That's the problem.
    134:23
    Everybody's going to be like, yeah, Joel, do it. Because everybody loves Joel, so they'll be like, bring him on. And please realize, if you email us or Facebook us and say, I like the idea. If you email or Facebook and say, I like the idea of a lunchbox, I'm kind of counting on you to actually buy it. And I don't know the final price yet, but it would probably be somewhere in the $40 range because we've got to ship it and whatnot. So I'm not holding you accountable, but don't hold my shirt up here and then not buy it. Please.
    135:01
    All right, that's it. Plug away, Tom. I don't know how I can top that now. I feel like the problem is as soon as I said hey go ahead and plug away Travis people just stop listening because they're like I don't need to hear the plugs I don't even know where I am right now I don't know it's just I really we really are so grateful for the Patreon people but the three of us we don't want to just like go buy ourselves dinner with Patreon we want to do something for the show so that's why I was trying to get creative on cool merch we want to buy lunch boxes a whole freaking palette of the lunchbox. You know what, Joel? I know you like lunchboxes. I'm going to support the lunchbox. Even if they don't, they'd have the towel idea, too. The towel idea. They shouldn't just support that. You thought that was super dumb. Well, you gave the idea, though. We segued that into a poster. I mean, it's just because of the towel. Because the towel would be – I can give one to Adam McKinney. think about this guys think think think do you guys have anything up on your walls like at all any artwork anything yeah yes it's all over do you two as grown men walk around with a towel in your pants I thought maybe I'm just I clearly don't understand let me think about this for a minute I see all these tournament players and they wipe down the game when they're done. And so in my mind, it's like they use their T-shirt. They flip their T-shirt and sit out. Because they don't want to walk around with towels in the play store. If they had an actual small towel, they would use the towel instead of their T-shirt. I applaud you for the thought. I'm just letting you know the reality of it. It's dumb. I get it. I didn't say it's dumb. That's you. It's not dumb. Yeah, it's just you shouldn't spend money on it. No, no, that's the thing. If anybody has a cool idea of something merch-wise, I was just trying to – what's a cool pinball thing that people don't have? Or a lot of people in pinball would use. That was the thought. How about a pinball with the Hydra logo on it?
    137:14
    What? And put that in your game? I don't know. Yeah, throw that in your game. That's a problem. I feel like this is a conversation the three of us should probably have not on podcast. No, this is good stuff because we talk to our viewers. Yeah, they're seeing how the bacon's made right now. Bacon made. Let's get a, you said that weird, but let's do an apron, you know? Why not? While you're making that bacon. What is your fascination with getting stuff that has to do with food or transporting food? You said bacon made. I was just going off of that.
    137:51
    But you can put it in your lunchbox and take it away. Okay, so we got hats. We obviously got sweatshirts. We have all that. I'm hungry all the time. We can do cups. We can do mugs. Why don't we do a coffee mug? Loser Kid did whole shoes. We could do shoes. No. But the problem is they don't make them past size 12. Yeah, we can't. And Tom and I are over here wearing 14 wide. Yeah. Yeah, we can't do shoes. No, no, no. We got to think outside the box, fellas. We're close. Think for us, please. No, it's not going to happen right here. I'm just saying, think for us, please. If any of the listeners can email us and tell us a cool merch idea, that would be really appreciated. That would be great. Yeah. We're going to get, like, 30 messages that are all about the lunchbox. It's going to happen. I would love it. Just do it for Joel. Don't even think about it. They're going to do it. They're going to be, Tom, everybody's going to be listening like, that Travis, Mary, what an asshole to Joel. We're going to tell him to get the lunchboxes. That's a fantastic idea. We're going to get 100 emails.
    138:52
    Yeah. And then I'm going to be free. Then I'm really going to pucker up because if it's like a big order, if it's a big order, and then all of a sudden like, okay, you're telling me I have to order a bunch of lunch boxes and hope that these people are going to – You've got to pre-order. Yeah. All right.
    139:09
    Does all 24, do they have to be the same design? Yes. Or is it just 24 pieces? No, you have to order 24. Can they be numbered like a limited edition lunch box? That's what I'm getting at. I could pull out a silver Sharpie. Hey, baby, that's something we could do. All right. There we go. We could sign them. We could all sign them. But that would involve shipping them to each other. No, we'll just leave that at show. Yeah. Yeah, that's fine. I show up with 24 at Expo. I show up with a crate of 24 lunchboxes. We'd be like, sorry, guys, we're going to go suck. We'd be at the table with, like, 24 lunchboxes, and we'd just look so sad. What's going to suck is like Dr. John in Australia is going to order one, and we're going to have to ship it out to there. It'll be more than the lunchbox. Neil McRae is going to order two, and we're going to find a way to ship it to him. I can't wait. We're going to have these at TPF next year, and that lady that waited behind Neil at Godfather is going to walk by and just scoff at us. Okay, enough of that. Let's do it. Let's do it, Joel. No, we talked 20 minutes. We talked 20 minutes about this. I'm on record. Yep. I am all for the lunchboxes. I know. You heard it from me. I've been here. It's a good spot. I'm not going back. That's the record. Oh, thank you. Tom, are you giving thumbs up for the lunchbox? Yeah. I mean, if people want it. Yeah. Joel wants it. It's a great idea. Joel is all in on the lunchbox. Joel's like, swing.
    140:44
    Lunchbox, swing. Let's do it. Joel would not drive us off the cliff. No. I'm just going to be stuck with 20 lunchboxes. That's what's going to happen.
    140:55
    Yeah, my five-year-old daughter has a unicorn lunchbox, and I'm going to say, nah, you're using this one from now on. I'll tell you what, if the lunchbox thing happens, I will buy one and give it to somebody. Ah, we'll give one away. We're going to end up giving them all away. We're going to give a lot away. Here we go.
    141:17
    We're just going to sit. Here's the five lunch boxes. There you go. Man. All right, so plugs. Plugs, yes. Tom, can you plug in that voice changer, though? Can you use that, please? Sure.
    141:33
    Hi, everybody. This is Tom. I'm Fox City's Tim Wall. That's all. Fox City Pinball that's the quality content why do people listen to this show why do people do this I'm the only one who does the flip it out stream no idea man I do the flip it out stream every Wednesday night from 10 to midnight feel free to join us live for that or check out the streams afterwards on YouTube yeah if you happen to be watching this on YouTube subscribe, like, leave a comment all those things you can comment here too I want to buy a lunchbox God, this show sucks Alright So good Alright, Tom gets the last words And remember Travis, I have to play the little sound bite So don't talk Bye
    142:44
    you