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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 43: Our Top 5 Games & Expo Prep!

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 11m·held·Oct 12, 2023
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Triple Drain debates Venom's complexity vs. accessibility and Pro/Premium differences.

Summary

Triple Drain hosts discuss Venom's game design, reception, and accessibility. They address criticism about rule complexity, examining the difference between Pro/Premium versions and arguing that players are overcomplicating the game. The hosts emphasize that Venom's core mechanic (color-coded combo shots) is simple and that criticism often stems from not reading the rule card or watching blinky lights.

Key Claims

  • Venom's rule set is fundamentally based on color-coordinated mini-combos, similar to the game Simon, requiring players to hit two shots of the same color in sequence.

    high confidence · Joel explains the core mechanic while reading the rule card directly; Travis emphasizes it's 'literally that' in reference to Simon.

  • Cary Hardy made a critical video about Venom without reading the rule card and admitted to putting forth zero effort before playing the machine.

    high confidence · Joel states 'he admitted to not reading the rule card' and Travis quotes Hardy saying 'I am admitting that I put forth zero effort.'

  • The Venom rule guide PDF is marketed as 32 pages but contains significant padding (large fonts, margins, full-page DJ Mixer section) with actual content being much shorter.

    medium confidence · Joel contends 'it's 32 pages' and argues the formatting is intentionally padded; they joke it's closer to 31 pages after removing the cover photo.

  • Venom (Premium/LE) has more internal mechanics (ramps, diverters, up-down posts) that change shot behavior based on character selection, while Pro is more 'wide open' and consistent.

    high confidence · Joel describes Premium mechanics; Tom prefers Pro for shot clarity; Travis explains how Gwynn character behaves differently due to up-down post diverters.

  • Many players can complete a full mini-mode combo in as few as five shots if starting from skill shot, or six shots from scratch, yet some players report confusion after multiple plays.

    high confidence · Joel states 'five shots' with skill shot; 'six shots' without; discusses confusion persisting after 8-10 plays.

  • Venom's rule set intentionally differs from typical Stern games (which often use 'ramp, ramp' mode start patterns) and is sometimes compared to Attack from Mars mechanics.

    high confidence · Joel explains Venom doesn't follow 'ramp, ramp' pattern; Travis compares it to Attack from Mars for filling areas/shots.

  • Dwight wrote the Venom rule guide and also designed Munsters, which was criticized for having a shallow rule set despite being intentionally simple.

Notable Quotes

  • “I just kept picking Spidey because I couldn't tell what any differences were between the characters...The LCD screen says it very clearly.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ N/A — Highlights player complaints that character selection mechanics aren't intuitive despite clear on-screen messaging.

  • “People have convinced themselves they have to know all these different combos and memorize it...The combo stays lit forever. It gives you plenty of time. The whole game is designed for you to get through it.”

    Tom @ N/A — Core argument that Venom is deliberately designed for accessibility and players are self-defeating by overcomplicating it.

  • “I am admitting that I put forth zero effort before stepping in front of that game to try to learn how to play the game.”

    Cary Hardy @ N/A — Admission that a notable reviewer didn't read the rule card before critiquing the game, undermining the credibility of his negative review.

  • “Battle modes, complete color coded mini combos to collect lights in the grid, complete three lights and be at level 10 to qualify battles with riot, phage, agony, and lasher to police station ramp to start battle...”

    [name withheld pending review] @ N/A — Demonstrates that Venom's core mechanic is explicitly stated on the physical rule card in accessible language.

  • “It's a hot take. I've put more time on the Pro. The Pro is easier...the shots don't change. Once you figured it out, you figured it out.”

    Travis @ N/A — Contrary to marketing positioning, the Pro tier may actually be easier than Premium for competitive play due to consistency.

  • “Venom is not that. Venom is not that. They're trying something new...it literally is just one shot...You shot one shot, and then you follow it, and you hit it for a second shot.”

    Joel @ N/A — Distills Venom's rule complexity to its simplest form, emphasizing the game breaks traditional Stern mode-start patterns.

  • “It's literally that! That's what this game is! People have convinced themselves they have to know all these different combos...”

Entities

Triple Drain Pinball PodcastorganizationTravis MosemanpersonJoelpersonTompersonVenomgameCary HardypersonSterncompanyDwightperson

Signals

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Significant community confusion about Venom's rule set despite its intentionally simple color-coded combo mechanics. Players report difficulty understanding mode starts and character selection despite clear LCD messaging and rule card guidance.

    high · Multiple players criticized for not reading rule card or following blinky lights; Kerry Hardy admitted zero effort before playing; some players confused after 8-10 plays.

  • ?

    product_concern: Gap between designer intent (simple, accessible combo system) and player perception (overly complex). Players claim rule set is unclear when it mirrors elementary game mechanics (Simon).

    high · Tom: 'People have convinced themselves they have to know all these different combos'; Joel: 'I don't know how more dumbed down that this can get.'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Venom Pro and Premium tiers have fundamentally different play experiences. Pro offers more consistent, reliable shots; Premium adds mechanical complexity that some players find clunkier (e.g., up-down posts affecting Gwynn character).

    high · Travis explains Premium mechanics alter shot behavior; Tom prefers Pro for clarity; Travis notes Pro may be easier despite Premium's marketing positioning as premium.

  • ?

    community_signal: Kerry Hardy (YouTube reviewer) made critical video about Venom without reading rule card, later admitted to zero effort before playing. Suggests some content creators prioritize fast feedback over thorough learning.

    high · Joel and Travis discuss Kerry's admission; used clips from Joel's streams and others to support his critique despite not reading rules.

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.393

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. Holy crap. Travis's camera just went out and just came back on. That tells you. So any listener or anybody who's watching this on YouTube, Travis's camera, 30 minutes. That's what it's got. It's got 30 minutes before it shuts off. So that's how long we've been talking since before we just hit this button. So I think we actually had an official, like, meeting before we recorded, is what it seems like.
0:38
Are we already sick of each other after 30 minutes? Tom, are you sick of us yet? Yes. Okay. Travis, are you sick of us?
0:47
What? Is that English? Are you sick of us yet? No, I love Tom. Tom's an effing beauty. You, though, you suck. Oh, perfect. All right. Hit the button. We're three guys who like to talk and ball. So we came up with a plan for our day. We're going driving down the donkey hall. And we call ourselves Triple Train. We're Triple, Triple Train. Best song ever. It is a great song. Shout out to Jason for giving us that. Jason, Pinball Party. Pinball Party has officially left TPN. No bad blood, no problem at all. But he left, so definitely check. Make sure, because he's still making episodes, make sure you subscribe to him on his own channel. Travis is holding his hand up. What do you want? He told me no doom and gloom, and I felt bad for telling you you sucked. But then, as I raised my hand, you went straight to something else's doom and gloom. That's not doom and gloom. I don't know what to think right now. Jason's still doing his thing. He just left. He's doing it on his own. You just announced it. He's doing his own thing. This is not new news. He's doing his own thing. Just make sure if you guys have enjoyed the pinball party, he has his own separate channel. So shout out, Jason. Appreciate it. Travis, what do you want?
2:11

medium confidence · Joel mentions Dwight designed both; Tom notes Munsters was 'supposed to be an easy to understand rule set' but players 'laid into him for it.'

  • Venom (Pro) version is easier than Premium because shots don't change; consistent, reliable safe shots like the Horseshoe create more predictable play.

    high confidence · Travis argues 'The Pro is easier' and explains how the Horseshoe remains constant, unlike Premium where ramps and diverters alter shot behavior.

    • [name withheld pending review] @ N/A — Analogizes Venom's core mechanic to a ubiquitous childhood game, suggesting the complexity complaints are unfounded.

  • “I don't know how more dumbed down that this can get for people to understand. I really don't. And I think people are just getting in their own way with it.”

    Joel @ N/A — Expresses frustration that content consumers (podcast listeners, video watchers, show attendees) still struggle with Venom's basics.

    • Zach Sharpeperson
    Jasonperson
    The Pinball Network (TPN)organization
    Frisco Pinballperson
    The Pinball Companycompany
    Karl DeAngeloperson
    Jack Dangerperson
    Attack from Marsgame
    Munstersgame
    Super Seriesevent
    Stern Pro Circuit Championshipevent
    James Bondgame

    content_signal: Jason (Pinball Party) left The Pinball Network to create content independently. No negative blood but signals possible tension or better opportunities elsewhere.

    medium · Joel: 'Jason, Pinball Party has officially left TPN. No bad blood, no problem at all. But he left...he's still making episodes, make sure you subscribe to him on his own channel.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Venom intentionally designed with simplified, entry-level rule set for casual players while maintaining depth for competitive play. Core mechanic is color-matching combos, a stark departure from typical Stern mode-start patterns (ramp, ramp).

    high · Joel explains core mechanic as 'two shots'; design explicitly differs from James Bond, Russian, Avengers patterns; hosts argue game is 'designed for you to win.'

  • $

    market_signal: Premium tier's additional mechanics may not provide expected value for all players. Some prefer Pro's simplicity, challenging the marketing narrative that Premium = better.

    medium · Travis: 'I now see the value' but also 'I do personally like the Premium more' and Tom: 'I kind of like the pro better' due to shot clarity.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Tension between designing for casual players and competitive depth. Dwight faced criticism for Munsters' simplicity; Venom's radical rule departure attempts different balance but generates confusion.

    high · Joel: 'It is an impossible task to write a code set that pleases the Carl DeAngelos...and a complete novice'; Tom notes Munsters was criticized despite intentional simplicity.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Mayhem Multiball fast-lock system confuses new players. Holding button required to cancel multiball start is not intuitive; players expect traditional lock-and-release mechanic.

    high · Tom: 'That would be confusing to people...oh, shit, what the hell just happened? How do you get six balls and I only got two?'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Despite LCD messaging stating 'choose your host, change the game' with clear character advantages, many players don't correlate character selection to playfield changes.

    medium · Someone kept picking Spidey without noticing character differences; LCD 'says it very clearly'; rule card states 'choose a host. Each host has a special advantage.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Triple Drain hosts engage in friendly banter and self-deprecation while discussing serious topics. Joel acts as moderator/fact-checker; Travis is competitive player perspective; Tom provides operator/venue insights.

    high · Opening segment shows 30 minutes of pre-recording chat; playful insults; Joel reads rule card to verify claims; Tom defers on some details ('It's been a while').

    • I extended my apologies to you. You just went right over it. You're like my wife. I say I'm sorry. You just go off and do something else. You want I forgive you? Are those the words you want? No, no, no. I just want to be heard. That's all. I forgive you? Okay. And I see you. I don't think the bouncing hand will carry through to the final video, but I wish it did because it's great. It's the only way I can get your attention. Oh, boy. All right. What was it? Tom has like an air horn sound. Didn't you do that once? You used your sound board to like, er, er, er. Yeah, but I don't have it here anymore.
    2:46
    You know what I just noticed, guys? We messed up. We talked for 30 minutes and we forgot to type out. I got it. I got the roadmap. map. I got it right here. What would we do without Joel? You would probably be more successful. You could do it. You could do it for sure. This is the Travis podcast. Remember originally it was going to be a Tom and Travis solo podcast. Then it became a Tom and Travis podcast and I somehow inserted myself into the mix.
    3:21
    The what ifs, this could be this could what what could have been we felt bad for the screen imagine me imagine me talking for like 30 minutes i don't 30 minutes exactly there wouldn't be a two hour long podcast that's for sure there's a chance at that but all right well uh topic number one topic number one on our list was venom there have been more and more people have played venom and it has been entertaining watching the uh people's thoughts it has been entertaining watching people's thoughts on their first initial experience. I've seen some that are really good. You know, there's a lot of LE buyers out there that are like, this game is awesome. They love the way it shoots. Somebody, I think somebody said like this, they feel this is like one of the best fan layouts ever. I know Hottie Frisco Pinball just got his. He's raving, loving it. But then there's other people, whether it's on Pinside or, you know, huge shout out to the one, the only Kerry Hardy. Kerry Hardy made a video on his initial impression on Venom. Kerry actually used a clip from my streams. He also used a clip from the pinball company, Travis's video, on supporting his views. How did that compare? Yeah. I'm curious. Yes.
    4:39
    Notice he didn't use any of my clips. Yeah. He should have just got all three of them in there. But Kerry had the view of he did not. He has not enjoyed Venom. I am shocked.
    4:54
    Kerry talking bad about a pinball game on his YouTube channel? No. That doesn't happen. So I get it. I get that the initial reaction when Venom was revealed was that it was wide open or there wasn't much there. And I will say Zach at Flippin' Out just recently swapped out the Venom Pro that I had for a Venom Premium. And now that I have one here in the house and actually looking at what's going on in the background there, there's a lot of mechs actually there. For the up-down ramps and the diverters that are needed for the game to change the way it does, there's a lot of mechs back there that you don't even realize are there until you play the game. So are there obvious mechs, stuff popping out of the play field and whatnot? It's not as obvious as some other games out there on the market. But once you actually play the game and realize how different it shoots depending on your character, I don't know. I now see the value or see what is added with the premium in LE. Travis, I know you have a premium at the pinball company. Do you agree with that? And I know, Tom, you've played the premium, but I don't think you've played a pro, right? No, I've played pros. You've played both? Mm-hmm. Do you see or do you feel that there's a big difference between the premium and pro? I mean, there's a significant difference.
    6:18
    Yeah, I mean, because you have, just like you said, you have all the mechs in there that change your paths and shots and everything.
    6:28
    But I kind of like the pro better. Okay. And why is that? just a little more wide open you can see the shots better that's the main main reason i wish they did the doppelganger and the pro yeah yeah that is a fun mech doppelganger and the pro is a wide open shot it's one shot doppelganger and the premium is three small targets and it makes it a challenge like actually hitting the right target is a challenge while the doppelganger on the pro is Boom. You just hit the wide open shot. Very easy. Travis, you've played both. You've had more time. No. No, you haven't played a premium game. Just the pro. We have a premium, but I just stare at it and walk by it and go to the pro. I will say... I just haven't had time to play it yet. I'll play it next week when I get back from Super Series. I'll play it to get prepared for the Stern Pro Circuit Championship. I'm going to pick it the whole entire time. Yes. I will say... It's a hot take. I've put more time on the Pro. The Pro is easier. I actually think the Pro is easier, and it's because the shots don't change. Once you figured it out, you figured it out. It's not like it's ever going to change. The Horseshoe was a relatively safe shot, in my opinion, both sides of it. So there were, in my opinion, multiple consistent, reliable, safe shots in that game in the Pro that now all of a sudden with the premium are not as consistent or reliable. For example, the Gwynn. Gwynn, on the pro, it's just a horseshoe. But on a premium, that's when the middle 180 ramp is actually all the way up and acts like the horseshoe. So you would think Gwynn, when you pick Gwynn them, it would be almost the exact same as what you get with the pro. But it's not. When you go through the right side of the horseshoe, there's an up-down post that will actually come up and slow down the ball or stop the ball and I found that actually can cause the ball to like now go a little bit to the left towards the middle of the game like middle of the flippers or that little bit of hold up throws off your timing like it actually in my opinion the up-down post hurts it it doesn't help it doesn't it's not a safety measure or because there's a diverter back there that can change it like that diverter makes that shot a little clunkier than on the Pro because it's just a stagnant horseshoe. So it's like little stuff like that that I do personally like the Premium more because I love how the game is changing based on your character. But if you want to focus solely on shots, the Pro is probably the way to go in that sense because it is a smoother way. But that's not unheard of. I mean, there are people that argue Godzilla Pro is better than Premium because of that. People argue Avengers Pro. is better than the premium because of that. Like just, you know, you start removing mechs out, you get more smooth, consistent, reliable shots. Am I crazy there? Now here's the real question.
    9:31
    Did you read the rule card? So this is not a dig at anybody in particular, but hypothetically, if you were going to put out – Hypothetically speaking, yes. This is all hypothetical, everybody. Like, potentially. This is hypothetical. If you're potentially going to put your opinion. I have nothing to do with this statement. If you're going to put your opinion out to the pinball masses, you know, on what your views are, your initial impressions on the code, and how easy it is to understand the code, you would think you might. Hypothetically, we think. You think you might. You might. Maybe. Read the rules. You might. No, I understand the rule card, which is on every pinball machine ever. Lower left. Right there. Boom. Rule card. That's a lot to ask. That's a lot. That's like 10 sentences. What's way more to ask is a 32-page PDF that Dwight wrote that's on the CERN website. I get that. And I get that a 32-page PDF may be too much. Okay. Wait, wait, wait. I've heard people talking about this. I don't know where this is coming from. Yes, I will contend it's 32 pages. But if you've actually gone to read it, it is literally like whoever wrote that. I assume Dwight did it. It's almost like the way I would write my papers in high school to try to get away with making the font as big as possible, the margins as big as possible, because I want to lengthen out my paper as much as I can. There's just no comparison. I don't think there's 32 pages of content there. Is it double or triple spaced? There's not 32 pages of content on there. They have a full page of DJ Mixer stuff on there. I mean, why does some... I mean, it's fine. What I'm saying is, yes, it is thorough for what it is, but people are just completely losing their minds by psyching themselves out that they have to know 32 pages worth of content. Like, I'm here to tell you, There's less than 1% of players in the world that even need to know that because they're even capable of doing that. I mean, that's the thing. It's like you don't have to know an entire rule set to enjoy it. The first picture is just a big picture of Venom, too. Yeah, that's the first picture. It's really only 31. So what's the second page then?
    11:56
    Probably table of contents. No, I'm just kidding. We've got plenty of time. Let's look through it real quick. All right. Page two, how-to and rule guide. It just tells you an overview real quick. It's just an overview. If the argument is it's not 32 pages, it's only 30.
    12:18
    I think the argument here. I understood when I got in the pinball there would be no reading whatsoever.
    12:25
    What do people want out of modern pinball? What do people really want out of modern pinball? Do we want EM rule sets, Joel? No. Is that what we want? No. Do we want just like a little drop target? I have an idea. I really think that every game should have the exact same rules, exact same score. There you go. And just change the layout. Just change the theme. I have even a better idea. We should come up with a rule set to where we don't even have modes in the game. We just do combos. And guess what? We just have three colors for those combos. But how would you tell somebody they're doing a combo? How would you show them that? I would just point and I would say you hit this shot and then you hit this shot with the same color wait wait wait the shots aren't lit oh there's no light you don't touch it you don't deal with it you just hit we should do a rule set with three colors and you know what we should do a rule set too with like a green triangle type light that represents a lock. Does it say lock? I think it says lock. And then you hit it and eventually the machine will spit out more balls that you can keep above the flippers.
    13:47
    One of the things I said in our chat earlier was I think most people that when they walk up to a pinball machine, they want to know two things. They want to know, how do I start a mode? How do I start a multi-ball? If you're a tournament player, then you go like, how do I get a play field X? How do I get a ball? Like there's a little more there. That's completely different though. I mean, a tournament player, here's the thing, Joel. And people have to get this out of their heads. Yeah. If you're a casual, right, or you just play and you don't play in tournaments, then yeah, you don't need to know how to maximize your points. You're playing the game for an entirely different reason, right? And that's perfectly cool. Like good on you. So that means you can explore the play field a little bit more. You can find out what's going on because that's part of the fun. Now, if you're not going to have fun by doing that, what's your other choice? You have to learn the rules. Yeah. How do you learn the rules? If you're not going to shoot around and figure it out, you've got to read the rule card. We can go a few different ways here.
    14:52
    We're going to go all the way. Okay. So the two things that come to mind, right? Okay. You have stuff like a video game, right? You have something like a video game. Now, some people hate how certain modern games have, like, a tutorial thing. They're like, I just want to play the video game. Yeah, skip over the tutorial. But you look at other games, they talk about, like, how Super Mario Brothers, you know, level 1-1 is a perfect intro because it puts obstacles in your way. You only have two buttons, and you've got to figure out, oh, I have to jump, or I have to this. Some people want that. They say, don't spoon-feed me how to play the game, but make it something that you can figure out as you go. But most pinball games aren't linear. How do we do that for pinball? Do we say, do I treat it like I do with my twin daughters? When the ball gets close to your flipper, you flip. You flip, yep. Is that the tutorial? If we're going to go back to people want modes and people want multiball, maybe they're looking at the play field going, where is there a physical ball lock? Okay, obviously right there, so I'm going to keep shooting in that direction to see if it locks the ball. Maybe that's how they think they get to multi-ball. Otherwise, they might read the rule card so you don't learn how to get to the multi-ball. Maybe. But a mode, I would say modern pinball, most people are, how do I get into a mode? How do I get into something? And usually the safe bet with a stern game is ramp, ramp. You hit both ramps. And then you find whatever shot starts the mode. Like, that's pretty safe. unless it's Russian, you've got to light a record and all that, right? Or Walking Dead. Or Avengers. But now, James Bond code, latest James Bond code, you don't even have to do ramp, ramp. It's just one ramp. One ramp starts a villain mode. It's like a bozo villain mode now. Straight into villain mode. One ramp. I'm in it. But then there's others, some of the classic older games. You hit whatever shot you hit, you just hit it three times, and you're watching the inserts light up. So I get that those are certain, like, staples, that it's like, well, maybe it's this, maybe it's that. Well, guess what? Venom is not that. They're trying something new. So I could understand how people that are not stuck but set in their ways of what they think most games, how you attack them, Venom is different than that. But it still doesn't make any sense, though, because I've heard some people comparing it to Attack from Mars in a way that they're like, I wish that the rule set was like Attack from Mars to where you just fill up a certain area and stuff like that. And it's like Venom is kind of Attack from Mars to life if you really look at it. I was just going to say, I just kind of slightly like that, yeah. Yes, exactly. That's what when people are talking about, I wish it was like Attack from Mars, I'm like, bro, it literally is just one shot. So many people are just getting in their own way and cycling themselves out. Instead of hitting a shot three times on a ramp, you're hitting the lit light. Two. You shot one shot, and then you follow it, and you hit it for a second shot. Yes. That's it. That's all you need.
    18:07
    You said you threatened to read the – do you have the card? You don't have the card. I have it right in front of me. I didn't just threaten it. It's a promise, Joel. So what is the wording on the Venom card that explains the mini-modes? because that's literally the base of the game and people can't get, they can't wrap their head around it. It literally says battle modes, complete color coded mini combos to collect lights in the grid, complete three lights and be at level 10 to qualify battles with riot, phage, agony, and lasher to police station ramp to start battle and battle shoot red and blue lights quickly to defeat foe. Increase your level for more power in battles.
    18:45
    I like, Unless somebody literally does not know what a combo is or doesn't know what a grid is, I don't know how else Stern can explain this any easier for people to understand. And I know one of the reviews I said, somebody's like, I just kept picking Spidey because I couldn't tell what any differences were between the characters. It's like the LCD screen says it very clearly. When you choose your host, over on the right, it says very clearly what the advantages are of the characters. Their whole shtick about selling this game on all the promos is choose your host, change the game. You look at any promo, you see it. It even says it on the rule card, choose a host. Each host has a special advantage in physical layout and play field changes. Like, it tells you. I get it. I mean, and, like, we weren't. Tom works it. We weren't singling anybody out. But I will say, I do like at the end of Jerry Hardy's video, he admitted to not reading the rule card. I do appreciate that, that he admitted. I heard about that, and I was just like, bro, no. I couldn't believe when somebody told me that. But that's what he's saying, is he's like, I am admitting that I put forth zero effort before stepping in front of that game to try to learn how to play the game. So why is it then, okay, let's just, let's take a step back here. Maybe Tom can help us because I'm sure he deals with some unique people. Thomas White. In his line of work, yeah. So how would somebody play Venom and not be able to tell that, and again, this isn't about anybody. I'm just talking like in general because obviously there's multiple people that are having this issue for some reason. how would somebody not be able to tell if they hit one shot that's a certain color that it moves to another part of the play field and how would they also not be able to look at the grid that's prominently on the middle of the play field and tell that it has the same colored lights how are how are people not corresponding that that's the thing like i i think with this game it can't get any simpler than what it is so if you can't play this game like anybody should know how to color coordinate lights. We've all played Simon, right? The freaking game where you just go... It's literally that! That's what this game is! People have convinced themselves they have to know all these different combos and memorize it. The combo stays lit for, what, 10 seconds? It stays lit forever. It gives you plenty of time. The whole game is designed for you to get through it. it's completely designed for you to win.
    21:33
    And it's like if you can't understand it from the very base, I don't know. Because compared to anything else Stern has put out, I don't think it's that complicated, all things considered. Because, yes, I will go ahead and say that some games, I could see how it would be extremely confusing for a casual to come up. And I think even Venom, it would be the same thing. For somebody that's a complete casual that doesn't know how to log in, that just wants to throw in a couple of quarters, bat around the ball? Yeah. But we're talking about people that consume pinball content, that listen to podcasts, that watch videos, that go to shows. I don't know how more dumbed down that this can get for people to understand. I really don't. And I think people are just getting in their own way with it, that they've convinced themselves that pinball is just so complicated that they don't get it. And they're not, for whatever reason, they're not taking a rule set, right? because like we talked about earlier, we're talking about 31 pages, right? You don't have to know the whole thing. You can segment it out. All you have to know is how do I start a mode? That's all you have to know. Well, that's not the answer. Yeah.
    22:42
    That's all you have to know. Then how do you start a multiple? You can't start a mode in Venom Travis. But that's the thing. And that's the whole point. There's not even a mode there. So it should be so much easier to understand because it tells you on the roll card, you know, where people should get confused, which is perfectly fine, is if you do start a mode in any other game, you may not know how to play it properly. You may not understand the sequences, the scoring, what doubles it. Yeah, that I get. But we're talking about just simply just hitting basic shots at this point with Venom. Yeah. Sorry, Tom. Go ahead. Your duty. I don't know what I was going to say. Well, Tom, you played it. You were actually the first of the three of us that played it. Yeah. And you happened to have your streaming. And I was like, I don't know what I'm doing, but I'm scoring a lot of points. But that's the question. Maybe that's the question, though. I mean, you are very good at pinball and have played a lot of pinball. But you're saying in that initial first game of playing pinball, you scored a lot of points. I'm assuming because you're following the blinky light. Yeah. But you said, I had no idea what I was doing. So whatever you were doing, it wasn't obvious what you were doing. Some things, but not a lot. Tom, did you follow the blinky lights? I did. There you go. That's literally 80% of the game. Did you coordinate, though? I hit a blue shot, and so now I should hit the other flashing blue shot. Did you correlate those, or you just saw more blue shots? I'm pretty sure I did. It's been a while since I first played it. There's video evidence. Yes. We can go back and see it. We could do it. Well, I will say, I mean, I think it is, you know, theoretically you could knock out your mini modes, your combos, your three combos very quickly. You could do it in six shots, or if you do the skill shot, you could do it even less. Five shots. That's it. Yeah. If you're starting from scratch, if you're starting from level one, I could understand the confusion of, okay, I did that, but I know, I mean, you can't do the battle yet because you're not enough. Yeah, of course. I can understand the confusion at that point. If it's your first game, yeah. But we're talking about people who have played it like eight or ten or a dozen times. They're still confused. That part I don't understand. I don't know what's going on. I think when I played it at first, the most confusing thing was like, okay, I got my locks, you know, and now, like, how do I get another lock? I want to lock the ball again, you know, for mayhem multiple. Right, right. Yeah. But, you know, it wasn't drawn out to me like that I, you know, usually it's like you got to do this to get your lock, you know. Yeah, you hit two stand-up targets that say light lock, you know. Exactly. Something like that, yeah. Or you hit the lock shot, you know, but there was nothing lit. The other thing is I think might be confusing to people is the whole mayhem multiball where you have to hold that button right away to cancel out the multiball from starting. Now, I could see a lot of people walking up to a game like, oh, shit, what the hell just happened? How do you get six balls and I only got two? You know, that kind of thing. But that all takes effort in learning the game, right? Of course. Well, that part takes effort and just reading the rule card because it's right there.
    26:02
    Nobody reads that rule card. If a complete novice stepped up to the game, they could hit two green lights and they'd be in a multiball. That's all they're doing is two shots in their arm. Like they play pinball or they're just off the street? Anybody that walks up there, anybody that walks up the street, I mean, they could see, oh, I see two green arrows, mistakenly hit them both and they're in a multi-ball, which is good in a way because they're probably pumped they're in a multi-ball. But if you get somebody off the street, they have no idea. They have no idea. They will be so confused over the fast-lock system. They don't even know there's a ball in the shooter lane, Joel. They'll be confused on how to pick a character.
    26:41
    You'll see it. They'll just flip around and then they'll look down. There's no ball going. They'll look up. They'll look here. They'll look back down. They'll flip around some more. They'll push the start button a few more times. that's what happens every single time what if they did this they have an LCD what if they had Joel or Travis on there and say hey this is I'm yada yada person this is how you play Venom and then they take you through the game on the freaking LCD and explain things a quick tutorial on the game Yeah, I think Stern can do that technically now if they wanted to because Carl has all those little mini screens that goes up for him, right? Yeah, and those play really quick. I'm saying like an actual person, like have Jack Danger. Like, hey, this is Jack Danger. I'm going to show you how to play this. The problem is how could somebody hear that? Oh, yeah.
    27:41
    You know what I mean? Buy a Stern headphone kit for $100. I think it would be cool if they would actually put the tutorials at the double buttons or whatever instead of going through the menu and playing, like, choose a tutorial. That way you can go through it. There you go. You can voice narrate it, something like that. I think that that is sorely needed, especially for home users, because, yeah, there is some things that people don't understand. But, again, that goes back to. You run up to your bartender and you go, turn that fucking music down. I got to learn how to play this pinball game. I mean, it's like... This ping pong game. Pinball rule sets are just a weird thing, though. Because people want deeper games. There's one section that wants deeper games. And they should be deeper because of the price of them. You don't want something super shallow. Who wants to pay $10,000 for something and you're done within two days? Then you've got another group of people that they're not going to buy the game to unbox, but they want the game to be super easy to understand. and they're just going to go play it on location. That's what they like. Some games are like that. Some games aren't. But to me, it's just like people just have to understand that when you play pinball, you don't necessarily have to know everything.
    28:58
    You don't. No, you definitely don't. Well, look at it this way. How many people are getting to a wizard mode during the game?
    29:07
    I mean, not many. Not too many. So people won't experience that. And that's the whole reason why A rule set like Venom exists. That's the whole reason why we put a rule set at the very beginning of the game for somebody to actually see. So it's not like there's a bunch of people out there studying how to beat a wizard mode. It's just not realistic.
    29:26
    You know, I just think people just need to enjoy pinball the way that they want to enjoy it and just stop psyching themselves out. It's just pinball. Just have fun. Attach it to something else. That's the big thing. Have fun. Yeah, but some people, they're like, I can't have fun. because I don't know what I'm doing. And I've interviewed a handful of pinball designers, and the thing that I always ask them is, like, how do you do it? Like, I think it's an impossible task to write a code set that pleases the Carl DeAngelos of the world that wants super crazy, all that craziness, and a complete novice that they can step up and have a good time. Like, it is, how do you find that balance? And I think Dwight himself, Travis is gone. Dwight himself had. Hi, Tom.
    30:16
    Freaking beauty. Thank you. So Dwight did Munsters. And Munsters was specifically, it was supposed to be an easy to understand, like, rule set. And they got, people laid into him for it. So if Venom is the exact opposite of, like, let's try something that's very different than all other pinball games out there, like you can't, you can't please everybody. Here's the, here's the funny part about monsters though. I guarantee you during that timeframe, if you ask them, if somebody said, Oh, this rule sets super shallow and they're bagging on it and everything. Yeah. If you ask them like, okay, well tell me what each mode does or tell me how to actually get through this game. It wouldn't be able to tell you. It's just a lot of people just get in their heads that something's a certain way. Now that's not to say that monsters isn't a shallow rule set compared to everything else. Yeah. But that's the way it was meant to be. So with this, I just think the other thing to consider is that if your skill set only takes you so far, you're not going to be able to enjoy a rule set to its fullest. You're just not. You're going to be fighting against the pen the entire time. Yeah. And I think a lot of people experience that. They don't want to admit it, but they're having that rough of a time. So it just becomes, well, I just don't understand the rule set. It's like, no, Larry, maybe your live catches are just off. You know, there's nothing wrong with setting your game up in a home environment so that you can play the game easier, too. Oh, yeah. No, that's what people should do. Except for you and me, Travis. Exactly. Yeah. No, I've definitely never done that. I've never made a game easier for myself. Well, honestly, I would tell people that are complete, that are novices or new to pinball. And we talked about this before. There's nothing wrong with setting your game to five to ten balls. Make the game something new. It's your game. Make sure you're having fun with it. I did it on Rush. I made Rush easier in the code because I think at some point they did a code change that made it harder. And I remember making a comment, and Ray was like, Joel, just set it to home mode or easy mode. Nobody's winning a world championship in their basement. You're not playing game nine of Vip against Johannes. Just set the damn game to ten balls. Set everything to easy and Joel out. That's all you got to do. So I will say, I mean, I had Godfather here. In Godfather the code in that is so much more complex than Venom Hypothetically Hypothetically No I just saying it is I talking to Tom We talking about something else But no yes Godfather yes Godfather If you want to talk about complex code yes We talk about Godfather That is something and I experienced that with a lot of the J games where I think the games really are designed for people that are ready to really learn, their home use environment, ready to learn, and people dogged on Toy Story 4 because they thought it was too shallow. But Toy Story 4 had a much more approachable code rule set than Guns N' Roses or Godfather, and it's just you can't have it all. But I will say, after spending a lot of time on Venom, I'm really enjoying Venom. Like, I like it a lot, and there's something about that XP system. Between .91 and .92, they made Grendel and Gnoll harder. I'd already beat Gnoll three times. I beat him. It would take me, it was under an hour and 30 minutes, and it was, like, in the 40-ish level range is all I needed. Humble brag. But people that listen to this or see my stream, they know my skill set. I've only beaten all once, Joel. Well, Travis did it two times in one game.
    33:52
    I didn't say that. No, he did a video of it. Joel, I think your skill set at pinball has improved dramatically over the past two years. And I wish, and I'll say this, so don't let this go to your head, because I don't like saying nice shit about you. I think if people want, like what excites me about your pinball play is that people can actually watch it over a long period of time and see the improvement in your proof of what happens. If you play a game consistently and you ask the right questions, that's what happens. Now it doesn't mean like all of a sudden we're going to get you out there and take 88 or anything like that. No, let me, Let me find that Abe Clips.
    34:43
    That's the best video. No, there is genuine truth to that, though, of, like, every game that I stream or borrow from Zach, there is improved, like, things improve over time. And normally my plan with streaming a game is first stream, I just want to do it on my own. I want to see how much of the game I can, like, find on my own. And I want to try to find the shots. Like, you guys have the ability to find the shots on almost any pin within, like, four flips of a flipper. I don't know how you do it, but I can't find shots that fast. It's called having no life, Joel. Ah, I got it. Right. But then stream two, I am fortunate, yes, to have a designer like an Eric Minier or a Dwight Sullivan to be on there and explain the game. You know, I've played the game enough now that I actually feel like I have good questions on can you clarify this? Can you explain that? That is super helpful. And I'm glad that I am in a position where I can have those conversations and share those conversations to hopefully educate anybody watching me. I love it even more that Travis had to watch that video of me streaming to learn how to play the game. God bless Dwight Sullivan for just sitting through that and trying to coach you through bricking all those posts. I loved it. God's work over there at Stern.
    35:55
    I will forget. Yeah, there was one point where I went to ask a question. He goes, hey, Joel, just focus for a second and try to beat Gretel. Like, he wouldn't even stop talking just to try to – anyways, I love that. You know you're talking a lot when Dwight's like, whoa. Yeah, Dwight is telling you, bro, hold on, buddy. Bro, take a breath, right? Yeah.
    36:15
    So it was great. It was great. And I'm glad I can have it. And I know Kerry called me out on that on the video. You know, it's not like all of us can have the designer of the game coach us through. And I get that. I understand that is fortunate. But there's a YouTube video out there. There's plenty of information out there. And you can either take that information and do what you want with it or you don't do it at all. And then you just live with the repercussions of that or the consequences or just the reality that you create around you. I mean, it's like anything else. We do anything else in life. We don't put any effort towards learning it. We just want to know it. Yeah. How's that going to work? It's like my kids. Whenever they come back home and they're just like, I don't understand this in class. All right. Carter, have you read your textbook? No, Dad, I haven't. I'm like, okay, well, let's start there, and then we can go. But, you know, that's cool. If you don't want to read, then don't read. Just play the game. And then I guarantee after 15, 20 games, you're going to start figuring out what's going on. Yeah. Like that's pinball. That's what you do. The only time that that's really frustrating, though, is if the layout of the game is super hard because then you're playing the game 15, 20 times. you feel like you barely did anything because you just keep training. I don't think Venom is that case. Venom, the layout, is relatively forgiving. It wants the ball. Yeah. And you want the ball to go to your flipper. You should be able to discover this game easier than others. But one of the questions we're going to address later on is what are our favorite games, and I think that's going to tell a lot about us because that's one thing I love about pinball is there's such a variety of games out there that some people are very attracted to very easy-to-understand rule sets, and they may be, you know, that's where a game like a Medieval Madness or something that really screams to them. Oh, my gosh. Now I see why Dwight said what he said. I can't hold that pose anymore. We should do that right now. You just want to go right into it? Hell, yeah. I mean, I don't see it on the production notes or anything. It was thing number four in my head, but it wasn't. What was number two? Your mom. Okay.
    38:25
    Oh, wow. Burn. We got him. Wow. And my mom likes you, too. I never judge a character as shit. Oh, man.
    38:44
    How is it taking 40? You be nice to that Joel boy. How is it taking 43 episodes? He's paying for the first year mom joke. I don't know. It's been so long. Oh, boy. All right. Hang on a minute. Walk right into that. Shit. Let's just edit that part out. Yeah, yeah. I'll edit it. Let me get on that. I had a reputation up hold. Let me get on that. Tom. Yes. We've been going on five games. We haven't heard from you. Okay. Yes. So the preface here is kinetesis. I actually had this idea. Believe it or not, I'm giving myself a little credit. Oh, here we go. Humble brags again. Humble brags. My God. This was my, um, I, I'm, you guys. Did we do this like 20 podcasts ago? No, I think we did. Yeah, I think we did. I don't think we did. Maybe it's top three rules. I think it was.
    39:34
    So how are we going to do this? Are we doing from five to one? Like, how are we doing this, Tom? I think we need like. I mean, let's start a VH1 and even shit. I like that callback I know I think a lot of people, my guesses aren't going to be crazy, but you guys have played so much pinball that I'm curious, like I've always been genuinely curious what you consider your top five favorite games so I was like, I'm going to ask these guys but I realized what if we got more people to do this all at once, so I reached out to Kineticist because Colin is a really nice guy and he's really doing a great job with reaching out to media creators. So he pushed it out to everybody. I love it. Loser Kid's already done it. I've already listened to Slapsave has done theirs.
    40:26
    There's more, Silver Ball Chronicles. There are people doing this. So I'm excited to see the compiled answers. So, yes, the question is, what are your top five favorite pinball machines? I don't really care what order we go in. Do you guys? Oh, slam tilt, not slap save. Slam tilt. I was going to say, is slap save still around? I absolutely care what order we go in. Okay, Travis, what order do you want to go in? I don't know. From first to fifth? It doesn't matter. You want to start with honorable mentions? Well, it doesn't make any sense to say our number one, because then what? You just start from the top, and you're done. Right? We've got to go five and down. Five. Okay. I'll tell you, five is ours. Why don't we start with five, and then each of us say one? Let's just copy them. How about this? So five, I don't feel like they actually did their top five. I think they did five, but they kind of split it up between designers. And then that's how Silver Ball Chronicles did it. They've had stories about five designers, so they did their favorite pin of five designers. And then Slam Tilt said their five least favorite pinball machines. So I actually haven't heard anybody do an authentic top five pinball machines yet. So what you're saying is nobody's listening to your idea. We're going to do it right here and now. Okay. So we'll start at number five, and we're going to go with – Number five. Perfect. Tom, what is your fifth top favorite pit bull machine? Number three will shock you.
    41:51
    Harlem Globetrotters. Oh. I bet you weren't expecting that. I was not expecting that. My prediction with this was number one, Rush LE. Number two, Rush Premium. Number three, Rush Pro. Number four, Rush New Inbox. Number five, Rush. Travis seems like. Rushed on location. That was my top five for Tom. All right. So here's my number five. You ready? Yeah. Harlem Globetrotters. No way. Number five. Oh, okay. Yes. Look, I'll take a picture of it right now. I believe you. To prove you. No, I'm not sending you, Joel. Only talk to Tom. Okay, Tom. I don't care why Travis likes it. Why do you like it? Yeah. I just, I like older belly games, but that one I really enjoy because it has the three flippers. Mm-hmm. And it has inline drops for your multiplier. And then it lights the drop targets like your spinner. So, like, you just have, like, a spinner, drop target fest, get your bonus up. It's just a very fun game to me. Do you own it? I do. Okay. It is one of the nicest Globetrotters in the entire world. Yep. It is super nice. When I bought it, the gentleman I bought it from gave me a play field with it from CPR. So I took it home, and I restored it.
    43:16
    Nice. Travis? Yeah. Travis, why do you like it? I love it because it's a different layout with the split flipper. I love the spinners on it, just the sounds, too. It reminds me a lot of my early childhood playing Harlem Globetrotters on the Nintendo and then seeing the commercials or the newspaper clippings for them that they're coming to town because back then we didn't quite have the Internet in the early 90s, so that's what you had to rely on. But, yeah, I mean, that's the stuff I like, and plus the color scheme of it, too. I think it looks pretty cool. Nice. Joel, what's your number five? Harlem Globetrotters, no.
    43:53
    My number five, this was actually – Have you ever played one before? Or would you say your number five? No. I don't think. If I have, I've maybe played one game on it. Okay.
    44:04
    It was probably at Wizard World, or it may have been at one of the shows. It could have been. Okay. I would like to play more. We'll find one at Expo. Because I like the idea of a scissor flipper. Like, I like that. Yeah, we'll find one at Expo. We'll just scissor me timbers all night long.
    44:16
    Can't wait. All right. This was the hardest one for me, genuinely. And I think my number five is actually, I'm going to sound like a shill, but it's Stranger Things Premium or LE. That makes sense. Yes. It does. That is my number five. It has nothing to do. Of course, no, right now at all third distributors. You can buy your game.
    44:43
    To me, I want pinball to feel unique. I mean, you were saying, Travis, you really like the unique layout of Harbaugh Globetrotters. That stands out. And I think what is going on with the projection mapping, the UV light kit, just the overall immersive experience that you get with Stranger Things. And then on top of that, I do like the theme. I like the Cleveland mod that adds a bunch of sound to it. And then watching my friends and family play that game, the amount of joy they had just trying to bash that Demogorgon in the face is awesome. Like, it's just a super fun game. And if you can go premium or LE, it really is unlike any other pinball machine out there. So what I would be curious is if projection mapping is part of another game down the road, whether or not, like, I would prefer that. Maybe that would be a theme I'd like more. I don't know. But for right now, there is no other game like a Stranger Things premium or Ellie. It's just it's such a unique thing that this is my hardest one. I got a lot of honorable mentions that we're all fighting for that fifth spot. But that's my number five. Stranger Things premium. What's your two honorable mentions? How much did you get paid for that, Joel? Zero dollars. Metallica. Metallica was one of them. Metallica is a game. I've had it. I loved it. I love all the mechs in it. I really enjoyed Metallica a lot. I love the theme. That was an honorable mention. Turtles is obviously an honorable mention. I love turtles. But the challenge that I constantly have with turtles is, is it because it's the theme? It was my dream theme. and I feel like it's hard for me to have a true unbiased opinion of the game because of how much I love the theme. And then Hobbit, believe it or not, was my fifth. If Hobbit shot better, that game would be beloved. I love the code in that is so good and the sound and the light show and they got so many assets. If it just shot a little better, that game would be beloved. in my opinion. So all that wasn't enough to overcome the layout? All that wasn't enough to overcome the layout for you? It wasn't. The one thing that, the one turn off from Hobbit is when I had it, none of my friends and family played it because they couldn't understand it. They couldn't understand it. It was too much. You're judging the game bad for your own top five because your friends and family don't play it? It is a factor. Is that what's going on right now? No, it's a factor. My wife doesn't play any of my games. So, there's nothing like Hobbit really. We talked just a few minutes ago. JJP games really are hard to dive into, and that was something that they're like, I don't know what's going on, but everything's going on all at the same time. But I really enjoyed Hobbit.
    47:33
    Well, Joel, don't let other people get you down. You like what you like, Joel. I was going to say, I was honestly, earlier on, I was really affected by, like, what my friends and other people said about games. And now I'm like, F you. I just like what I like. If you don't like it, F and bad. Yeah, that's why Travis sold Toy Story and his kids hate him for it. That's fine.
    48:00
    Oh, that's the way pinball should be. You know, like what you like. Even if you're screaming at your phone or your headphones listening to us, like, like what you like. Like, don't, you know, you have to like something just because we like it. I get it. Unless Tom likes it, then you guys better like it then. Well, what are both of your number fours? Clearly, you're in sync here. This is going to be really weird. Make Travis do his four first. All right. My number four is Jumping Jack. That is definitely not my fourth. What is this game? You don't even know it, do you? No. I don't want people to hear clicking of a keyboard. Joel's like, they made pinball machines back in the 70s? Don't pick Jack's pinball. Why? Why is this game any good?
    48:49
    I didn't say it's good. I said it's my number four. Why? Why does it make your top five list? Because it has such a weird layout that is so simplistic that obviously somebody could come up with it within like a day. But it has four flippers. They're just like wild. It has the two pops close. So you always have chaos down below. And then you have just a line of drop targets. And you know what, Joel? Sometimes I just want to take out my nightly rage on a bunch of drop targets in front of me with soggy ass flippers. That's what I want to do. That's my idea of fun. Hey, like what you just said. just like what you like. Now you see why I did that speech. Nobody can judge me. So you own this. You own this game. Oh yeah, I own it. It's a fun machine. I would never sell it. So you have to do a skill shot into one of the saucers up above. If you do the proper skill shot, then you make your targets worth a whole lot more. So it's just to me, it's a fun machine. I enjoy EMs. I don't need a complicated rule set to have fun. Do your twins play this or Toy Story 4 more?
    50:03
    Well, obviously this because Toy Story 4 hit the brick. Okay. Hey, you. This is your list. Number four. Jumping Jack. You be you.
    50:15
    Tom. Tom, is your number four Jumping Jack? It's not an EM. I have no EMs on my list. Otherwise, I would have put High Card on it or like Doodle Bug or something.
    50:27
    Jump Sky Free Fall. I don't know. Why is everybody looking at me? Is it your turn? Joel, have you ever played an EM? Yes, I've played an EM. Joel just now discovered what an EM was. That was like five minutes ago.
    50:45
    Oh, boy. Joel, okay, can you name three EMs? All the ones he just did. I knew Doodle did. Doodle went big. The four we've mentioned are off. Okay, Grand Prix. Grand Prix is a good one. That's one. What is it? Centigrade? Okay. Centigrade, what?
    51:05
    I don't know. Or 38. Which one do you like? Are you saying 38, Joel? 38. Why not? Let's go with that.
    51:14
    And I knew Doodle Bug because I remember that's got a lot of love. I already said that, though. I know, but I actually knew that one. Oh, okay. Oh, Bronco. Bronco's one. Okay. Yeah. How'd you know that? I own a Bronco, too. I don't care. I don't.
    51:31
    We would have given you high props if you would have said volley, but you did not. Volley, yeah. I watched that at Expo down at her finals. That was awesome. Are you fucking kidding me right now?
    51:46
    What? Volley was the final game of Texas Pinball. My castle is over. That is true, Joel. Is it behind him? No. Joel. What? Five-dollar volley. He doesn't know. I know it now. History Day 2, worldwide phenomenon. I know it now. I'm telling you, I'm going from my personal experience of sitting in the room watching the final game of Texas Pinball Expo. Joel's been in a pinball shelter. My God. Okay, number four, Tom. Number four, Tom. All right, here we go. Stern Spider-Man. Oh, yeah. It used to be my favorite, but it's now fallen to fourth. Dropped on the fourth. How long ago was it your favorite? Because everything just, you know, you ask me next week, there could be five different games.
    52:41
    Okay. Why do you like Spider-Man? I just, I like the layout. I love the flow of it. I like playing multi-ball over and over again. I like the simplicity of it. I just really like it.
    53:00
    I just like that Steve Ritchie flow kind of stuff. That's a solid pick. That's a game I wish I had. I want to get one of those in the future. It is a very fun game. I enjoyed streaming it. My brother enjoyed streaming it. Which version, though, do you guys like? I've only had the version. See, I like the original, but I mean, I like the comic, too, but I like the original better. I'm a Tobey Maguire fan. That's kind of, yeah, I went to liking the comic book, but now that Tobey Maguire is officially MCU, I'm back on board with the original. Back on board. I need that. All right. I'm sure he cares.
    53:44
    My number four is Medieval Madness. Medieval Madness is the only game on my list I haven't owned, and I know the two of you guys, Tom has, it's gone, and I know Travis doesn't care. It's not a tournament. It's not beloved in the tournament world. I mean, it is for local events and stuff like that. It's just two samesies for me, but I think it's a cool machine overall. Cool theme. Cool toys. Exactly. That game, it's a game that I've had fun every time I've played it, and it's also the game that my friends and family have had the most fun. That's the one they remember. That's the one they ask about. That's the one they want me to own.
    54:23
    I think there's a reason it's in the Pinside Top 5 forever. I feel like we need to get your wife here, and she can do the rest of your list.
    54:31
    The castle toy is probably one of the coolest toys at Pitbull. Yeah, it's pretty cool. I like the lock mechanism with it more than anything. It's cool that they have a lock mech along with the castle. That part's cool. We don't see that too often anymore where it's just one mech all together like that. Yes. You know? It just doesn't happen often enough. I mean, it still happens kind of, but yeah. So I'm not going for the humble brag, but I did interview Brian Eddy earlier this week, and we talked about medieval madness. And what I realized how great the castle is is because initially the door is up, and you hit it, and then it comes down, and then you're bashing a gate, and then the gate goes up and then now, I mean, it's like, it's a bash toy that has different states and it's obvious you know what you're doing. You don't have to tell anybody what to do in Medieval Madness. Like, you just, you see a castle, you hit it with a ball, and then you notice the castle moved, so you want to do it more. And if you mistakenly hit it to the left of the bridge or the gate, now you've locked the ball. Oh, apparently that's what I have to do for multi-ball. Now, on top of that, there's some really cool ramps. It's just fun. And then the troll. Like, nobody sees that coming. Boom. Trolls pop up. Oh, what am I going to do with those? I'm going to bash those. Like, it's just, I really enjoy it. Did you talk about Shadow? We did. It's a good thing. You should give it a listen. Give it a little listen there, Tom. I will. Once you watch my streams, I'll watch yours.
    56:05
    My streams are a little shorter than yours. Just a tiny bit. Tiny bit. I want your final. You could at least watch $5 Volley. Oh, okay. I got it. That was my four. I'll go ahead and do three because I haven't gone first yet. Three, this is no shocker. It's Cactus Canyon. Cactus Canyon, I just bought it. I really, really love that game. It's another game where it's just easy to understand. It's a lot of fun. It's a game I've beaten, but yet I'm still drawn to it and looking forward to playing it more. quick side tangent, Josh did say on Josh Sharp he did say on Pinside that they are working they're still working on the Lyman code and if he had to make a guess he's hoping the Lyman code would be done by summer of next year so we got time but it is interesting owning the game it's not all the games we have well yeah all the LEs but it's interesting owning a game knowing that there's a chance that there's going to be a huge code change coming down the road. Did Josh say one of my Pulp Fiction all he's going to be doing? He did not answer that. No, he didn't say that. I genuinely love the code the way it is. That game is beautiful. It's a lot of fun. That's a game that was not on my radar whatsoever until I actually borrowed it and played it and now I own it. That is my number three.
    57:32
    I know for you two that game is way too easy and probably pretty boring, but I'm a fan. It has pistols in it.
    57:44
    Good times. It's got one of the best toppers in all of pinball. The topper's awesome. The topper's pretty cool. Yeah, I can tell you're both. What does it do? I don't even know what it does. What does it do? When you hit Bart or any of the quick draw targets that pop up, he actually knocks back, so you hear this knocking sound. So it's actually like an audible and physical interaction when you're shooting the guys, which is pretty cool. And then his arms move based on draw and whatnot. It's actually really pretty neat. And there's a whole mode. There's a whole topper mode. But that's my number three. Let's go, Travis, what's your number three? I will say my number three currently is Godzilla.
    58:29
    Stern Godzilla. I can't do a cool Godzilla. No, please do that again. What was that? Was that a cat? All right. Godzilla. Decent game.
    58:43
    Pretty decent game. Why is it your number three? Why did it beat out freaking Jumping Jack? So it's my number three because my number one is a very sentimental pick. And my number two, I can't say what it is yet, but then you'll understand why it's my number two. But Godzilla used to be my number two, and then it got switched around. But it's, no, it's an awesome game. It's fun. I enjoy the theme itself because I grew up on Godzilla. Hell, I used to have frickin' slumber parties with all my friends watching Godzilla movies. We'd have, like, marathons of just watching it. So I was totally obsessed with it. And then when they redid it for the U.S. version in 1998, totally broke my heart when I went to go watch it because I was like, what is this piece of shit? You know, so I was pretty upset about that. So seeing the campy Godzilla in a stern pin or in a modern pin. Yeah, it's awesome. And the fact that it's done so well with the layout and the rule set, even better. I mean, it's the type of pin it just won't leave my collection. I mean, I've thought about it just in case if I want to move down to a pro. I've thought about it. I was like, I can't. Yeah, that building's too cool. Everything on it's too cool. The mechs and everything. You know what's also pretty cool about Godzilla? Is we're in it. You know? You're going to sell it. Yeah, that company is in Godzilla. Easter egg, yep. Yep, Flipper Code, TDP. Purple Drink Podcast. Check it out. That's a good choice. Just don't look at Joel.
    60:18
    Tom's the front and center. Just cameras. All right, Tom. Number three. I went with another Steve Ritchie game. Star Trek. Hey, I guessed it. What do you own? Which Star Trek do you own? I have the Ali version. With the lasers on the side of the cabinet? It is pretty sweet. Sweet.
    60:41
    That warp ramp, huh? Oh, yeah. Warp ramp, the vengeance, the 18 different modes in it. It's all good. Yeah, that's a very beloved game. I get it. And it's also, that is a game that has depth, but it also is very accessible and approachable to anybody. And the fact that Vengeance is right there in the middle, you really don't have to tell anybody what to do. They're going to have a good time.
    61:11
    Maybe that is a game, a good game of like it appeases all skill ranges or skill levels. So, good. Star Trek's a great game. Good choice, Tom. Thank you. So, that was number three. I already did my number three Who went first? We'll go Travis You went first I did But let Travis go first We've been rotating Who goes first Okay It's a good rotation Okay So my number two now Is officially Jurassic Park Three Oh I said my number three His three is Godzilla Yeah And your three was Star Trek Oh yeah And Joel's three was Texas Canyon Mm-hmm Travis's number two Jurassic Park Yep Jurassic Okay So you're saying Jurassic Park and Godzilla where they were kind of flopping back and forth. No, I legit, I had Jurassic Park out of my top five before the new code update. I mean, it was still way up there, but just the only thing that I kind of like stepped back from is just whenever you got into control room, it was just very much you wanted to pick just one particular mode. And that's it. Because, I mean, especially in tournaments and stuff like that, because it's the only mode that made sense. But now that everything's been balanced out, it's been switched around just a little bit, just enough to make you want to play every single mode. And I have the Jurassic Park 30th anniversary in my basement now, and I find myself. Oh, yeah. Total humble brag. I've got one. But to play in the control rooms, I want to play all of them. You know, I don't think of, oh, I just need to play this because I need to get this score or something like that. I find myself just playing through Jurassic Park because it's just fun to play through without even thinking of the score. Now, you can do stuff that's score-based, but trying to get the visitor center, that's pretty cool. Trying to get through all the T-Rex events, that's pretty cool. Trying to get through all the control room stuff, that's pretty cool. Trying to do the Raptor with the Raptor Gate that comes up. Like, all that to me is just a lot of fun, and you get so many choices to do stuff. Now that they got the combos wrapped in with the DNA combos, the trifecta, getting fossils. I mean, there's just so much to do in that game. And the layout, to me, it's just so unique because that O shot is just a mother effort. Like, I have such a hard time with it. Or, no, the A. Sorry, the A. The O is fine, right? But that one on the right orbit, that's the one that I have the most difficult time with. Out of any shot on any game ever in pinball. That's the one I have the most difficult time with. So, I mean, just like yesterday. Are you doing the dino quest? I did, and I got all my badges in five days. Did it. Yep. Yeah, I still have to get the top one, which is play it for five days. But I got all the other ones.
    64:05
    All right. What about you, Joel? You get your badge? Nope. Did not get any of those badges. I got my two-year Insider Connected badge. You got that, you know. You got what? If you played an Insider Connected game on the 6th, you got a badge. That celebrates two years of Insider Connected. I think that was the last badge I got. It just happened to be. How do you even look up what badges you have? It's under your profile.
    64:35
    I have a profile. I have badges. I have a profile? I mean, you should. Just look up Tripod Tom. You'll see it. It's there.
    64:44
    That's a good point. That's a very good pick. Jurassic Park, I know I streamed it. I borrowed it. It kicked my butt. It's a challenging layout, or I found it to be challenging. Wow, look at all this bench. Look at all those benches. Wow. But that game, I get it. I totally, that's one of those games where I totally understand why it has the love that it has. I totally get it. All right, Tom, what's your number two?
    65:08
    My number two is Iron Maiden. Whoa. Oh, that, I did not, I was not expecting that. No, nobody was. I was not expecting that. You haven't had Iron Maiden that long.
    65:25
    I've had it since it came out. Yeah it only been five years Tom No didn you I thought you bought that isn that the game you bought with your rewards That was a viral You getting Tom confused with somebody else No, I'm sorry. That was Jurassic Park. That's what you bought with your rewards. Got it. I mean, I still really like Jurassic Park. Yeah.
    65:50
    Well, okay. Iron Maiden. So why? Why? Why Iron Maiden? In which version is it? I'm pretty sure I know your number one. It's a pearl. I just like all the different modes and multiballs and shot layout. I love the shot through the pop bumpers and up the ramp.
    66:07
    And I love the shot in the back to start the mode and get your soul shard. I don't know. I just. So, Keyshia just stopped there. One and done. No. But out of his four games right now, that's one of my favorites. It is really good. I also have mine set up really effing hard, and it's fun just to play it and try to... Get wrecked? Yeah. I do really well on it for it being set up so hard. Nice. That's a good pick. That's a solid pick. Apparently not. No, I just wasn't expecting it. You buy so many band pins that I was expecting your list. I'm pretty sure I know your number one, but I was expecting that's, I'm pretty sure you're number one. I was expecting another one though. The one that's right behind him. I thought he was going to say that one next. Foo Fighters? Yeah. I thought for sure he was going to say that one next. Mm. No. Tom's just full of surprises.
    67:14
    Keep us on our toes. Thanks for being, thanks for providing that for us, Tom. You're welcome. Keep us on our toes.
    67:20
    My number two is TNA. TNA is my number two. I've said it before, if I was to get down to two pins, that would be one of the two I just love everything about it, love the music, love the light show, the simplicity of it, co-op mode I just love it, love everything about TNA, I did actually get a message from somebody on Facebook that said they just recently bought a TNA from watching my stream so if my enjoyment of TNA was carried through the camera enough to convince somebody to buy the game I did it. My commission on that is zero, but I freaking love that game. I love TNA. I know, Tom, you owned it for a while. Yeah, I think it's a great game. I just have my time with it. Yeah. I was ready to move on. And to me, there's something I know it's not. I know you guys are giving me a hard time for EMs or even some more simple games. but for whatever reason I feel like TNA scratches the itch of having a more single level simple game in my collection, even though it's a modern game. So, big fan. I will say honorable mention for me because you did that. Yeah. I was thinking about putting Pulp Fiction on my list, but since it's not really out so much. That was fair. Yeah. Which is because for the same reasons you're saying, like, it's kind of a older game with a modern take a throwback. Yeah. But yet. I mean, Beatles is that and Bond 60th is that. Yeah. But it's I get it. And I like Bond 60th. Just didn't make the top five. I get it. All right. Final games. I think we should guess them. I. Well. Tom, I think yours, everybody knows, is Rush. Yeah. Am I right? You're right. What is it about Rush that you love, Thomas? First of all, it's made after the greatest fucking rock band ever made.
    69:27
    Enough said. Number one. They didn't even have to put anything in the game but the music.
    69:35
    Okay. But they did. They put way more in the game than that. Yeah. There is a ton to Rush. And that's one of the reasons I love it The code and the layout I think is great I'll put it against Anybody else's games I know a lot of people hate it But I don't care It's your list It's my list Go F yourself You don't like it? I'm fucking mad Just kidding Tom you want to guess Travis's number one?
    70:10
    The Sentimental Oh, man. I don't know. It's not Jumping Jack. He already said it. I know. He sold his Iron Maiden, so it can't be that. His rap version of Iron Maiden. Do you still have Star Wars? I don't. I sold that, too. Yes, that's not that. That was a fun one. And he sold Avengers.
    70:32
    I did, but I'm getting Avengers Pro. Oh, okay. Because Avengers, I thought, might have made your list, but it didn't. Maybe. Maybe not. I don't know. I can tell you my honorable mentions. Okay.
    70:48
    So, Avengers, Iron Maiden, Frontier, and... Do I want... No, I don't think that one's worth it. Those three. Those are my honorable mentions.
    71:03
    Paragon was on my honorable mentions. No, Paragon's fun, too. Metallica and Iron Man. I think those are a lot of fun as well. Well, I know the answer. The answer is Walking Dead. It is Walking Dead. That almost made my list as well. Definitely Walking Dead. So Walking Dead was the very first pen I ever got. My kids, my wife got it for me for Father's Day, like way back. And I think it was 2016 or 2017. I think it was 2016. So that was literally my first pinball machine after asking for an ACDC for like five years. And I finally got this. I just knew of the comic books Right? And I knew of the show Until I watched the show And so Monica was like Hey, look at this, it matches up with what you like Do you want to get it? So I was like, yeah, cool Yeah, that's what we ended up getting I had no idea about the rules, the design I had no idea that this game was supposed to be hard I was just playing it And I was like, oh, I'm getting over 100 million This is cool, what do I do now? You know, I was very much like I said, screw it. Didn't read the rule card. Didn't do anything. I just figured it out. Just figured it out. I know. Shocker. But no, it was. Yeah. So it's just as sentimental. I mean, I do enjoy the game. I love the rule set to it. You know, the layout to me, it's it's fun to hit. It's a difficult shooter overall, but there's plenty of things to hit at. But yeah, I would say if my kids and my wife didn't buy it for me and it wasn't my first pin, it would probably be maybe number three, number four, so it's still high up there regardless. But yeah, that's the reason why it's number one. That pin will never leave. I'll keep it as long as I'm alive and not get rid of it. Try to keep it running for years and years. Until Spice Girls comes out, then it's gone. Oh, yeah. The wannabe Ellie, I'm all in. I cannot wait.
    72:59
    That's a great choice. That's a game I would love to borrow one to stream it because I just haven't put enough time on Walking Dead to feel like I've... I want to love it as much as everybody else does because the time I've spent on it just kicks my butt. But I want to get deeper into that code set because there's a lot of people that think it's Lyman's best and I want to see that. I want to experience that. Any guesses? Any guesses on my number one? Any guesses at all? I was thinking Godzilla? Oh, great guess. Yep. That would be it. That was my guess, too. Yeah. I still, if I was to go down to two pins, it would be Godzilla and TNA. Those are the two that I just think, I don't know. I think Godzilla is, I love the way it shoots. I love watching other people play it. I don't get the burnout that you guys get with tournament, you know, play. I know Travis, you had said, or sorry, Tom, you had said that that's one of those games that's almost used too much in a tournament.
    74:00
    I don't have that. So just for at-home play, it's an absolute blast. And it's funny to me how I can borrow a lot of newer games, stream the heck out of them, and then I can step over to Godzilla, and within 30 seconds of playing that game, it's like, ah, I forgot why I love this game. Like, I forgot. It's just, it shoots so well, and it's so much fun to shoot, campiness, all the things that we all described earlier. So that is my number one. It's such an awesome game, though. I mean, overall, when you really look at it compared to anything else that's around, it's just, yeah, it's a lot of fun. I mean, it's hilarious. We had somebody in our showroom a couple of months ago, and I told you guys about this, that he was walking through looking at all the pins. And he stopped at Godzilla, and it was a Godzilla premium. And he pointed at it. He's like, why does this one look different than all the other ones?
    74:50
    I'm like, that's the thing. It draws you in. You see it, and you're just kind of like, okay, this is something different. You know, because everything, and we talked about this show when it first came out within the first week, we were talking about how it was different because everything feels like it's wide open in the middle. Yet there's still shots to hit at that's close to the flippers with that pop bumper with the mazer target, but the spinner and the scoop right there and the other spinner. I mean, it's just, it's unique in that way that there's nothing really just smack dab right in front of you, but you got to spray shots. Yeah. to find it. It creates unique combos and everything. It's so well done, and it's also one of the games that I'm modding the heck out of. They're all tasteful, but I love how popular this game is because you have something... I thought you were going to say tacky. They're all tacky. They're all agate and tacky. I have mods to get. There's some amazing mod makers out there, Diddy Mods, Stumbler being two of them, that are really putting in work and making these incredible mods. So to have additional light shows and choreography and other stuff that's added into this game and making these sculpts even better is, I don't know, I love that game. It's my number one. Yeah, it would probably be quite a battle. What's your GC on it, Joel? I don't know. It's less than a billion. Come on, it's right behind you. I haven't broken a billion. Am I covering it right now? Come on, Joel. I don't know. I gotta flip through all of them.
    76:19
    Joel's like the champion of everything there. Yeah, it's My pin. Except for Calvin. Do what he got. 864. You are so close. I know. I'll get a billion. When are we going to get you past a billion? I just need to focus. I need to focus. Do you have extra balls on, Joel? Yeah, it's all stock. It's all stock. Okay. I don't really change. The only game I've genuinely changed, Stranger Things, when I borrowed it, I moved the outlaying poster all the way up. I moved it in the middle because that's where Brian Eddie said he wanted them shipped at. They weren't shipped that way. So I did it. And then Rush. I moved the code back to the easier setting because that's what it was originally. Those are the only two games I've tweaked. Are you talking about where the records carry over? I don't remember. It was something. I feel like it was less. I don't remember. I don't remember what it was. But it still didn't help me enough to get to some of the stuff I wanted to get to in the game. All right. So that was our top five. So real quick, refresh. My five in order were Godzilla, TNA, Cactus Canyon, Medieval Madness, Stranger Things Premium Tom, your five in order From first to five or five to first? Okay, so Rush, Iron Maiden, Stern Star Trek, Spider-Man, and Harlem Globetrotters Perfect, and Travis?
    77:39
    I was Walking Dead, Jurassic Park, Godzilla, Jumping Jack, and Harlem Globetrotters Jumping Jack. What I can't wait is, I hope Colin, like, compiles all of these answers and does some sort of graph or something to, like, show the popularity of certain pins. And the fact that Jumping Jack has to be a data point is hilarious. Yeah. All right. Well, that was fun. Yep. That was definitely fun. The last question that Colin wanted was, what is something that you currently love about pinball? What is something that you currently love about pinball?
    78:12
    Tom, what is your – The people. When I threw that out earlier today before I warned everybody.
    78:23
    Yeah. But, no, the people. People is a great answer, and I'll piggyback right on it. That's the same as mine. I mean, the – I've met so many cool people in pinball. It's amazing. Yeah.
    78:37
    It's a great hobby. I was trying to look for the specific question, but that is I really dove into pinball at the beginning of COVID. as an outlet to, like, connect and play. And there's something about this game being such a tangible, hands-on game. You want to play it with other people. And, sure, I understand video games. It's a little easier to play certain video games with people across the nation at any time. But there's, I don't know, I just feel like it's such a more personal connection when you're playing there side by side, playing the same thing, and it's you versus the game. And then through streaming in this podcast, you know, you guys, listeners, please be aware how appreciative we are of Facebook messages and e-mails and coming up to us at shows or tournaments and just saying hi. And it's awesome. It's an awesome way to meet and connect with people to kind of share this hobby. So I'm with you, Tom. I can't wait for Travis to just say some ridiculously selfish answer. But, you know, our answer is people. We like people. So the question is, what's our favorite thing about pinball? What do you currently love about pinball? Oh, what do I currently love about pinball? Well, I love that it gives me a paycheck. Oh, a paycheck. I pay my mortgage. That's pretty awesome.
    80:01
    Right? What do you currently love about pinball? My paycheck. Okay. Well, that's that. No, we're good. We can stop there. I would say besides getting paid for it, which is pretty awesome, it has its cool parts, has its down parts like any other job. I would say probably I guess my most favorite thing about pinball right now is seeing my kids discover pinball a little bit more and just watching them play, watching them figure it out. And it's hilarious to me because none of them ask me anything about the pins. They don't ask for advice. They don't do anything. Monica doesn't even do that. None of my family does at all. Joel, you asked me for advice more than my own kids and my wife. I don't think anybody asked. I think we just get it, you know. Yeah, pretty much. Pretty much. But, yeah, I enjoy watching them play, and to me it's interesting seeing them kind of latch on to something that I'm very much involved with. So that's pretty cool to share a hobby with friends and family, just like you would say. Yeah. My friends and family haven't really – well, my brother has. My brother now streams with me. like consistently. And he, I think he actually enjoys it. Like that's really cool. He's the most entertaining one on there too.
    81:17
    Jared. Yeah. And Tom, I know you and Neil traveled the world, you know, and we'll continue to do that. So it's, yeah, obviously I think that's, that's the hope for everybody that's into pinball is they can get their family into it as well, or their friends, you know, to, to kind of do this journey with us. But even if you can't, you know, to be able to go to a bar or a tournament or somewhere and just the show, you know, and just kind of share this passion and hobby with others.
    81:43
    Well, the people are cool, too. That's part of it, too. You guys just already answered that. Well, I mean, if anybody wants to pay my mortgage for me as well, you can become number one on that list as well. But, no, I think that that's the cool part, too, is doing this podcast and doing online content and being a part of different tournament streams and all that, it's allowed me to meet a lot of unique personalities and a lot of unique people from across the world that otherwise I would have never even known existed, never would have got to bet. And to me, it's actually a blessing to get to meet different personalities and get to talk to people from different walks of life. And to me, that's what makes life a lot of fun living. And yeah, Pinball allows me to do that. So I'm very thankful for that as well. It's crazy to me that you traveled across the pond all the way over to Europe to compete. It's a big pond. Big pond. You traveled all the way over there to compete in, what is it, nationals. Not nationals. Yeah, I traveled to Europe to compete in nationals. Not nationals. Yes, worlds. Worlds. Wow, wow, wow. Got it. But you travel all the way over there to compete in worlds, and you happen to play a young adult that listens to our podcast from New Zealand. Oh, yeah. Mr. Dipper. Yeah. Like, complete other side of the world. He kicked my ass. Yeah. So Matt listens to our podcast and then beats you head-to-head on pitball. I mean, that's crazy. It destroyed me. That all that can happen. Oh, yeah. No, it's fun. I mean, that was the cool part, even going to the U.K. Open. There was several people over there that told me that they listened to the podcast and they watched Tom's streams and everything. And, you know, I mean, that's really cool. And plus, the most fun part of it is apparently a lot of people in England hate Joel's gut, and I love it. I might as well just move there. It is awesome. There's very much pro Tom, pro Travis. So, yeah. Good crowd over there. Everybody's pro Tom.
    83:44
    All right. Well, thank you, Colin. That was fun. All right. So the last two things on our event are basically what's happening in the next two weeks. So first we'll focus on you guys. There's a lot of tournament, a lot of tournament coming up in the next two weeks. Super Series being one, I think both of you guys are heading out tomorrow for that. That's Wednesday to Sunday Super Series. That's at District 82. Go for it. Say your thoughts or peace out. I thought you were telling us to go for it. Like, you're going to win it all. Yeah, let's fucking go. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Get out of here.
    84:26
    I would love to see Travis versus Tom in the finals. And I know who I'm rooting for. That's for sure. Yeah, it would be nice if we, like, didn't play each other until the finals for a change. I know. Hey, we haven't played against each other in a long time, though. We've been able to avoid each other for a while. So is there anything special, like, super serious? This is a big deal. There's a lot of people traveling to this. It's multiple tournaments over multiple days. I mean, is this essentially the series? This is the tournament that you guys look forward to, like, all year. This is the super series, Joel. is super and is the series.
    85:07
    Who are the favorites to win right now, do you think, Travis? Besides me and you. Yeah, after us. It's just, yeah. Actually, I feel bad for everybody that's coming there to play against us, to be honest with you. I mean, I've been good on them for trying. But, no, I would say, gosh, it's tough. I think Dalton, he's the young one is going to be there. He's going to be tough. Nate Grant's been playing phenomenal. And District 82 is classics heavy, so you're going to have some people there that can play the hell out of classics.
    85:46
    Andy Rosa. Derek Fugatti. Yep, so there's going to be a lot of tough players. I mean, we're missing a lot. I think there's something like 25 or 30 top 100 players. They're going to be there. Terry Wing, who's Women's World Champion, is going to be there. Then there's the locals like Cassidy.
    86:08
    Thank God Joel's not going to be there. Is Escher going to be there? Walt Wood. Freaking Walt Wood. No Escher. He's showing mercy on all of us. He's taking a break. There's another tournament going on at the same time over in New York, so it kind of split. Everybody, they're doing their post-circuit over there. So it has a couple of the younger players going that way, and I am perfectly fine with that. I mean, all the young players, go to New York. Where's Ray Day? Have fun. Ray Day's going to New York. Go to New York. I'm perfectly fine with that. All the good players, just go to New York. You guys go there. Let us in our seniors division have our time here. Go to New York. Yes. Please. Are they going to turn the lights on at District 82 for your older eyes, you know, to be able to? Oh, yeah. If there's money on the line, lights are on.
    87:00
    Well, cool. No, and Fox News. But there's a lot of good players there that are going to be there. Oh, yeah. Well, I think, like, what, Derek Price is going to be there, who's been a California State champion.
    87:13
    Who else is going to be there? Of course, what, David DeLuga? I thought I saw him on the list, and he's an excellent player up there. Luke Nohorniak is always a killer. Is Carl gone? Carl was, but Carl had to drop. You guys have a chance now. Brian O'Neill?
    87:28
    Trent? It'll be fun. There's just a lot. You could go down the list and somebody could catch fire. Like, they could catch fire and win. Andre Masson-Kauf? I could just go down the whole list.
    87:43
    Because the CERN Pro Circuit Championship is the following week, so you've got some players that are going to both. Nice. Oh, yeah, Carlos is going to be there, too. Oh, Ian's going to be there. Cool. So that'll be fun. That'll be streamed on Fox Cities. Are you starting that Wednesday?
    88:03
    I'm going to start Wednesday. I'm not going to do Tilton Tuesdays because it's just brutal for me going to work the next day. So we got streaming for Fox Cities Wednesday? Thursday. Friday.
    88:19
    Saturday. Sunday. Five days in a row. Five days of competitive pinball. High-quality pinball streaming. Make sure to get your wallets out there, everybody. Drop some subs. Takes a year off my life every time I do it. Tom, no. That's going to be awesome. That'll be awesome to watch. And then the week after that is freaking Expo. Is Expo, and I'll be streaming that tournament too. Hopefully. So, Travis, I know he said he's traveling, whatever, Tuesday. He's there Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday, drives home, home Monday, and then Tuesday you're turning around to head up to Stern Pro Circuit. No, I'm going to go Wednesday morning. So, yeah, so Chicago is only about four hours away, and they're doing the Stern Pro Circuit Championship, which is on Wednesday. Completely different than last year. Yeah. It's like top 32 or 38. I forget how many people are in the tournament. There's a bracket. Yeah, there's a bracket out there. Yeah. And you've got a few buys. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Head to head. Best of five. And I think they're going to show that tournament on Stern's YouTube channel. Don't you hate head to head? They're going to do. I do. I absolutely hate it. Oh, bummer, dude. I know. That's what I said. But I have to go because it's an automatic $600. So I'm just going to drive, collect my money, and Monica's going to come with me, and we're going to go to Expo. Born free. But I'll only be there for one day. So Thursday and then leave Friday. So that is Wednesday night at Emporium. Emporium? Emporium. Close. We're all over it. Good thing Andy Bagwell's not here right now. Kick your ass. That'll be Wednesday, and then Expo starts. Expo is Thursday. I will be at Expo Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Travis is going to be there just Thursday. Tom is going to be there Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Wednesday night. but actually the qualifying for the tournament starts on Wednesday, and then all day Thursday is qualifying all day. There's Tom, you're going to be streaming that. Yes, but yeah, we're all going to be at the show on Thursday. So if you want to catch the three of us, do your best to try to catch us on Thursday. Otherwise travelers and then Tom will always be easy to find. He'll be, whereas Waldo, he'll be in the, he'll be behind the stream or near the stream.
    90:45
    But yeah, it's, that's going to be fun. So that'll be cool. I need to look in the, cause I can technically do that tournament, right? I can still sign up or is it all sold out? No, no, you can absolutely do it. Yeah. I think I, I think I should, you know, why not? You should too. Why not? I might actually stay and watch that.
    91:04
    Yeah. Try to qualify on Thursday. I have, you make it to finals. Anybody that plays, make it to the finals. So then I would be, I would play at some point in time. It's not true. Everybody doesn't make it. So like, if you're in the, it to B? If you're in the... No. I mean, if you're in the top 250, you have to make A. Excuse me. Sorry, Joel. If you were in the... If you were theoretically, or sorry, hypothetically, if you were in the top 250, yes, you would not make it to A if you didn't qualify. Oh, well, I'm not, so I'm good. Right. So we don't have to worry about it. Okay. Has anybody ever not qualified for A at Expo? Yes. Has that happened? Mm-hmm. Oh, that happened last year. Last year. I forgot about that. Mm-hmm. Oh, bless his heart. I'm not going to mention names. No, we won't say names. Like somebody accidentally didn't realize the format. The funny thing is they were told by one person that they were going to make it at the bottom, and then another person said, no, you are not. Oh. It was kind of like, and they literally drove like three hours to come back to find out that they weren't playing. They weren't there. That sucks. Ooh, double oof. So that is for all the tournament listeners out there. That means Fox City Pinball starting this Wednesday to Sunday, you got high-quality tournament streaming. There's going to be the Stern Pro Circuit Finals the following Wednesday night. That's going to be on the – you said Stern Pinball YouTube? Yeah, on the Stern YouTube channel. I think Mark from Backhand Pinball is going to do it. Okay. And Mark from Backhand Pinball is also going to be streaming the New York City Pinball Championship during the whole Super Series thing. So you can go back and watch. And then during the actual show, Fox Cities again, we'll be streaming. During Expo. During Expo, yeah. We'll be streaming Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday as well. I mean, geez. Now, here's the question. Is there going to be a live Joel and Friends on Wednesday? I don't think well okay so there maybe it won't be live at the show I know Steve B's always had like a party the Wednesday before Expo and they've usually streamed so Joel and friends Joel you're supposed to come cheer me on I will yes that would be pretty cool but believe it or not I have to drive up a pinball machine for Jeff Teolis actually bought a game at a show like last year. Grand Slam, I think is what it is. It's an older game. It's in my garage. So I have to drive that up because he's getting it and driving it home. So that's all the tournament. There's a lot of tournament. So even if you're at home, there's going to be a lot of tournament stream to watch and cheer. Stop listening to this podcast right now. Turn on Twitch.
    94:02
    Watch us. Then turn it back on when you see us on the screen. Perfect. Alright, so that brings us to actual Pinball Expo. So Pinball Expo is next week.
    94:16
    What, if you're going to Pinball Expo for your first time, I think we said this before, if you're going to Pinball Expo for your first time, what do you do? What do you do? And then even if it's, yeah, what are the initial, yeah, go for it. Get a hotel room.
    94:35
    Ask all your lady friends to go with you. And you're going to be sleeping by yourself. Yep. Well, there's the Stern tour on Wednesday. Thursday. Thursday? Thursday morning. There's a Stern factory tour. There's a bus. They'll pick you up. You got to buy a ticket. Yep. They'll pick you up, show you the tour, bring you back. Okay. Yep. And expo's over. Have you had fun?
    95:02
    So there's, yep, there's those. There's a lot of seminars, yep. A lot of seminars. You have the free play hall, which is a part of the main hall.
    95:17
    Yeah, so that's open. Just look at the Pinball Expo and find out what the dates are. There's a ton of pinball machines that are just sitting there. That's in the free play area. You can walk up to any of them. They're in free play. You can just play as many of them as you want. Do not walk into the tournament room and start playing a pinball machine. Yes, the tournament room. There were four or five security guards that will kick your ass. If you see Tom Graff in the same room as you, don't play the game. Don't play the games. If you see Tom Graff by his streaming stuff, do not come up and start talking to Tom Graff. Don't play the game. You'll get angry, Tom Graff. Don't play the game.
    96:04
    If you don't see, that's the check. If you step up to a game, you look around. If you don't see Tom, you can play it. If you do see Tom, don't play it. I think it's pretty easy. That's a pretty good barometer. Yeah, yeah.
    96:16
    And then there's the vendor area, which is the vendor area, it's only open certain times, but there's a ton of different stuff to buy, products, things, accessories. But then there's also distributors there that have brought games or teamed up with certain manufacturers to show off games. Then certain manufacturers will have their own areas. So go to those. I mean, there's a chance that some of the pinball designers, software people, employees of these companies will be there. And they're all nice people. Go talk to them. Say hi. Shake their hand, you know. If you want, bring stuff to sign. I know, like, Stern has, like, a signing session.
    96:57
    If you want to get a Translate signed or whatever, bring it. It's pretty cool. That's one thing I really love about Chicago Pinball Expo, being that the majority of the manufacturers are in Chicago, a lot of the employees come to this show, which is really, really neat. Yeah, I'm looking at the list right now, and I think, I don't know if you guys said this earlier, I guess on Thursday night they're showing the man who saved the game. I don't know. The ball for Roger Sharp, so they're going to show that. And Roger's supposed to be there, too. That's at 930. and then one of the things on Friday that's kind of caught my attention the Mystery Pinball Company is going to have a pizza party from 9.30 till midnight that night you just really like pizza I do, I like pizza and I like mysteries you put those together that's a whole other thing there are, so Mystery Pinball Company has already said that they are planning on announcing essentially themselves their company, their game everything, so there's going to be a new company with a new game there, hopefully to see play all that stuff.
    98:02
    Jersey Jack, October 19th, they're announcing their next pin, so pretty good chance that'll also be at Expo. So we'll be able to see that.
    98:11
    Spoilers, pretty confident it's Elton John. That been the rumor that been floating around for a long time Steve Ritchie game even the marketing stuff that they throwing out there I think they even said like the next pin is set to launch You know Rockman reference Could be. This could all be a joke.
    98:32
    I don't know. Maybe they're serious. I don't know. Stern, obviously, they're going to have Venoms there because that's what they're – there's going to be Venoms there. So if you haven't played Venom, play it. Definitely give it a shot. if you're wondering how to play the game there is an instruction card in the lower left you can read it or just follow you know you hit a yellow shot then hit the blinky yellow shot you hit a blue shot hit the blinky blue shot two magic girls right two magic girls are supposed to be there somebody's bringing those over I think so yeah that's probably going to be an auction type scenario there is the guy from Homepin apparently is going to be there Apparently he doesn't make pinball machines for pinball people So we'll see about that Let's see, then I guess GTF is going to be there at 8pm Right on Friday American Pinball is going to be there and they're bringing in all the actors All the actors that were in the pin are going to be in person So if you happen to be a GTF owner, bring your trans light in Get them signed That would be the sign.
    99:44
    Can we nominate Joel for the Pinball Expo Hall of Fame? Yeah, we probably should. Why not? Yeah.
    99:56
    So that'll be that. That's American Spooky. Spooky's wrapping up their Scooby-Doo. So I highly doubt they're. Yeah, I don't even see Spooky there. They may not even be there. Spooky, I don't think, usually comes. Yeah, American Pinwall we've talked about. Stern will be there. Yeah, Stern is doing a bunch of stuff from 3 until 6 o'clock, it looks like, on Friday. Yep. So it looks like they're making them Venom, they're doing Foo Fighters, and 007 Game Rule, keep that. Yep. And then Jersey Jack is going to have the Godfather Design Team at 9 a.m. Saturday morning. So bright and early if you want to go look at that. and I guess Saturday I don't even know what's going on Saturday CGC I'm assuming will bring some games hopefully Pulp Fiction I'm going to sneeze go for it why is he looking like that nailed it what kind of sneeze was that I was hoping no I sneezed I had this new glove this is the universal sign to like Keep talking. You know, you can whatever. Oh. You know, a good podcast would edit that all out, but that's not going to happen. Sorry, I was looking at the Xbox schedule. I wasn't looking at you. Okay, if we just go through a manufacturer, Scooby, or Scooby, wow, Spooky's probably not going to be there. American Pinball, I think, is really going to be pushing GTF. Stern, thanks for the mute button on that, bro. Oh.
    101:28
    There it goes. I forgot. Stern is probably going to have Venoms. I doubt they're going to have Stranger Things. Maybe. but Stern's going to be doing their thing. Jersey Jack will probably have Godfathers, and they're going to have their next game.
    101:45
    Who else? I don't know if Haggis is planning on being there. Holton said they were. I don't think it was Haggis. Francie and Zombie Yeti are doing something together. They're doing another seminar. Yeah, Saturday. Dutch Pinball, maybe there would be a big Lebowski there. I don't know. Pinball Brothers might be there with some Queen and Alien. and then yeah if there's anybody else if there's anybody coming out of the wood you know new companies or something so we'll have to see but there should be good stuff like I know we were spoiled with Texas because there was what was it like six games all announced all at once I don't know if P3 was there two years ago when I was there that would be cool if they had a final resistance or anything like that it says how we design games at Multimorphic okay so they should be there perfect Perfect. So hopefully they'll have a game. But, yeah, if you're new to all this, just try to play the games you're not used to.
    102:40
    So, yeah. And then it should be great. If you go to Expo, play as much pinball as you can. But the reality is what I love about Expo is the people. So talk to some of the industry professionals if you can. They would love your feedback.
    102:57
    Talk to other people. Go to the pizza party. Yeah. If you're talking. If you're standing in line to play a pinball machine, don't bother Tom. Get to your dinos. The person in front of you probably loves pinball as much as you do. So talk to them. You know, meet some people. It's going to be great. It's going to be really, really great. And definitely ask them if you can play in a game with them. And then get to wizard mode on ball one. Yeah. Do that. And walk away in disgust. Yeah. That'll get you a lot of friends.
    103:26
    But, yeah, I think that's, I mean, we're definitely going to have to do a Pinball Expo recap, you know, probably on next episode. But I'm pumped. I look forward to Expo all year.
    103:37
    Both of them, the two that I go to, Texas Pinball Festival and then Chicago Pinball Festival. So I can't wait to go.
    103:44
    And by all means, if you see any of us at the show, please come say hi. Yes. Unless I'm streaming. Unless he's streaming, yes. Then don't. But, yeah. No, it's going to be great. I don't know. Anything else I missed about Expo?
    104:01
    No, that sounds pretty good right there. I mean, you pretty much covered everything. We don't know until people start announcing stuff and showing off stuff and billing stuff, and then, I don't know. Then we can talk about it afterwards. There should be more stuff coming on, though. Yes. I would think. We're about at that time. We had on our Facebook, we did our normal post of, hey, do you guys have any questions or is there anything you guys want us to talk about?
    104:28
    First question, the fact that Jersey Jack is announcing something, I think I had read this somewhere. Somebody said, is there a chance that they're going to lower the price? Is there a chance they're going to lower the price? And I've never expected pinball to lower in price, but I do know at Jurassic Park, well, I do know at JJP, the amount of product they have out right now sitting on distributor shelves, I think it would be smart if they lowered the price.
    105:00
    But do we know if they're going to do it or not? I do not. I don't know. Is the question if we know they're going to do it, or is the question do we think they should? I know nothing. Well, I'm saying what's the question? Well, yeah, what is the question? Do we think? Do we think they will? Do they? I think the answer is no. Do I think they should? Yes. Yeah, I don't think they will, but I think it would be a good move to try to figure out how to cut costs or how to kind of pivot a little bit to get a little bit more competitively priced with everybody else. Because, I mean, obviously, Godfather, it looks great. GNR looked great. Toy Story, for what it was, it looked great as well. But obviously the prices, they're way up there compared to everything else. And if you're seeing people get pushback to Stern over their prices, they're certainly going to get pushback to prices on any other company as well. So that's just something to be aware of. But who knows? I don't know if they can go up or go down. What do we got? Ryan Williams. Why people care only what Travis thinks. And if Triple Drain is turning into a Solar Drain podcast, I'd like to see a deep thought by Joel Segments. Ooh, I'll think about that. All right, Joel. You've got 15 seconds to give us a deep thought. I'm not ready for that. I'm over here swimming in the... Just act like you're going to sneeze and you do your little spin thing again. That's not... No. Let me ask another... I'll think of one. I'll think of a deep thought. Jeez.
    106:32
    Sterling, Balls of Steel. What did he say? He said, Cactus Canyon Code coming out next summer. Is CGC done with remakes? They are promising they're going to do another run of Medieval Madness at some point. But after that, after CGC, are they going to dip into another remake? I don't know that. I want them to. Oh, I'm sure a lot of people do. I want them to, yeah. What game are you looking for, Joel?
    106:58
    I don't know. I mean, if you did a Papa Duke game, that would be pretty cool. Which game, Joel? Do you want to see? Well, that's what I love about Cactus Canyon. Right now. Spit it out. Cactus Canyon has already been made. Which one?
    107:10
    I don't know. Deep Nuts with Joel. I don't know. Circus Voltaire. No, I wouldn't want that. I think Tales of the Rabian Knight or Theater of Magic would be pretty cool. But I would love for them to do what they're doing with Cactus Canyon. If they took Tales of the Rabian Knight and then released some additional code to actually modernize the game a little bit, it would be sick. Yeah.
    107:35
    I'm super impressed with CGC and their build quality and the machines that they make. So I feel I'm annoyed. like if they remade if they did another run of Monster Bash I'd probably get one. If they did another run of Medieval Madness I'd probably get one. Like I really like those. So you don't have enough room. I know. I know. I know.
    107:58
    Do we think Stern will increase their prices for 2024? I hope not. I don't think they will. I don't see how they can right now. I can never say never. I hope they don't. Yeah. New pinball alley sign. Is it worth it? We're already paying $2,000 for toppers. That's not how many places in my place it would set up. Tom, are you tempted at all to get one?
    108:24
    No, because I really don't have any room for it, and it won't fit above my toppers. Oh, bummer. Travis might. Travis, hey, take it in, everybody. Everybody watching this right now, take in his background. It took him this long to make it look decent. This is it. This is the last time we're seeing this room because Travis bought a house. So we'll have to see what his studio looks like. We all know Monica's going to paint it. It's going to look great. And it's probably going to be a closet or something initially. It's going to be, yeah, we've got to start from the bottom. It's going to be pretty sad at the very beginning. Yeah. But your new place, you might be able to fit that topper, or not topper, that sign. Oh, the pinball? Yeah. I mean, we got a little room.
    109:14
    A little bit. It's not like Tom-esque with the toppers or anything. Tom, what is going too far when modifying a game for a tournament? Something you've experienced or don't or wouldn't want to play? yeah I mean there's definitely going too far you know making games so tilty like you breathe on it and it tilts just in general there's a lot of things you can do like slight things like just making the slings really sensitive to your games that would do wonders to make a game tougher where you don't have to necessarily, you know, pull posts out and things like that. But there is going too far. And I think some games have gotten there in tournaments. And that's frustrating. Yeah, we've talked about this before, that there's been a few tournaments where the feedback is the games are so hard, it's just not even fun. Like, it's not even really fun. It's just who survives the longest, basically, on the pin. And when you remove the actual skill aspect of the game, and every pin is just luck and chance and hope, you know, that the ball just stays in bounds a little longer. Well, there's making a pin brutal, and then there's making a pin, like, disgustingly brutal, that you don't even want to flip the ball. I mean, it's, yeah, there's got to be like a happy medium. Yeah. But I think that's dependent on the game, too, because you don't necessarily want to make a game like Stars super tough because it's already tough.
    111:19
    Do you agree, Travis? No, I agree. I guess the one thing I think people go a little bit overboard with is having, And I played on a few pins like this before where the tilt is so tight that a ball in a pop bumper is causing danger. Yeah. You're not even touching your pin. Yeah. That in itself is not fun. So if you ever want to put on tight tilt, just keep that in mind. I think that the way to go with pinball, especially in tournaments, of course, you don't need games playing forever, but you need them playing fair. Yeah. So it's almost like finding a balance, an equilibrium balance, that I would rather see the pins be made a little bit more difficult as opposed to making the modes on hard or something like that. Like just keep the modes and the multivolume default. You can go ahead and open up the outlanes if you want. But if you're going to do that and you're going to make the pins steeper, go ahead and loosen up the tilt a little bit. Let somebody be able to move the pin. Yeah. Because if the outlanes are just super wide open and you can't even move the pin and all the settings are on hard. Yeah. That's just, that's not fun at all. I've played in tournaments like that before. Yeah. And it's, it's gotten to where a couple of times I just said to hell with it and just went and got a beer. Just stopped caring because it's just, yeah. I mean, that's why we all play pinball. We want to have fun. What about like, what about lightning flippers? Like, would you, are you okay if they put lightning flippers in every game? Like I said, it depends on the game. If you do it on, you know, again, you put lightning flippers on stars, you know, I'm going to tell that person to go F themselves, you know.
    112:49
    Yeah. You know, but, yeah, I mean, a long-playing Stern game, sure, put lightning flippers on it. It doesn't bother me.
    113:00
    Yeah, we had lightning flippers on the Godzilla at Freeplay Florida last year, and that was actually really fun. Yeah, it played great, actually. I don't think it played bad. Yeah, there was a different nuance to it, and it was just, yeah, it made the game a lot of fun. I mean, the game's already fun, but I was just, after doing that, I was like, hell, I might want to put lightning flippers on mine. at my house. I've never had that thought. Nope, never had it. You've had thoughts, I need to put on more precision flippers. I think Travis and I would agree. You just don't want to take skills away that should be there by making a game that difficult. Yeah, the game needs to stay competitive, and it doesn't need to devolve into just who does the best skill shots for all three or all five balls. That's not fun. No, that's ridiculous. I've seen some people, and I won't name the tournaments, but I've seen some people just absolutely brutalize even EMs. It's just like, why? You know, it just that makes it to where a lot of people just get super frustrated and just overall you take the fun out of it. And the last thing any of us want to do is travel somewhere and not have fun. You know, I don't mind if I lose. I don't like to lose. But, hey, it happens. We all have to keep doing it eventually. But I want the game to at least play fair and I want it to at least be fun. Yeah.
    114:31
    Jeremy here, I think, tried to call you out here, Travis. Could you talk about how Travis said that no more Stranger Things are going to be made at the beginning of the year?
    114:39
    I stand by that statement. Because he said, Travis, you actually commented on this. He said, October isn't the beginning of the year. That was the answer.
    114:52
    It would be interesting to get Travis' takes on what pinball manufacturers he thinks may be on the ropes and how their next release could impact whether they can stay in business.
    115:04
    I'd like all three of your guys' takes, he said. Travis Moore from his perspective, somebody who works for a pinball dealer. I would assume because you work for a pinball distributor or dealer, you probably have to filter your take. Oh, yeah. I could totally just burn every bridge right now in the next 10 seconds. I totally could. Now, I'll just say this. I think from a business perspective, it does concern me where the pinball industry is headed right now. And a large part of that is because there's just where the prices are at right now. Obviously, people are having to make choices over how they want to spend their income with mortgage rates just going way up, with the cost of living going way up, gas, groceries, everything. Kids going to college. Yeah, exactly. There's so many things going up. And so there's only so many people. Like the pinball industry, the pinball buyer base is big. But at some point, though, we're going to find that ceiling. And at some point, there's going to be more demand. are more supply than demand. Whereas the other way we saw, there's more demand than supply. So obviously supply is catching back up. So the question really becomes then, what are people willing to pay and what's their utility for the current products coming out? Which means, what are the themes going to be like? What are the designs going to be like? What are the rules going to be like? Are the rule cards going to be designed? Like all these things. Well, nobody reads them. Who cares, right? Exactly. All these things we need to think of. And it's just, you know, I think a lot of people don't realize how difficult it truly is making pinball. When you really get down to it from the conception of a design, from figuring out a rule set, to figuring out sound design, to figuring out animations, to figuring out the artwork. And that's just, yeah, that's all to come together just to get to the point to even just manufacture it. Then you're talking about manufacturing at that point. And you're talking about getting a game in a box and you got all the shipping logistics. So there's just so much that goes into it. And, you know, I am a little bit concerned with what's going to happen in 2024, how the industry is going to react to the different pens that are coming out and whether or not certain companies can get pens out in time. Because obviously, if you announce a game and you're not producing it at scale and it's not coming out in volume and people aren't responding to it, then, you know, what's happening? Because you're not bringing in much revenue. So that's just, yeah, all that's concerns for me. And I'm sure people can kind of see what companies out there that they could probably draw their own conclusions, what they think, how the industry is going to go. But, you know, I think that it's just pinball itself is in a unique spot. And I think we're seeing it really happen very quickly where you see third-party market going, used games going. We're seeing a lot of certain pros right now be around $5,000. I've seen a couple at $4,800, and those are prices I have not seen in years. And, yeah, people might be celebrating it like, oh, yeah, prices are coming down, all this and that. But that just means that if the prices are going down that much, that means those new in-box games aren't going to move as quickly. because other people are going to see that. And if they're used to turning through games, well, what would be the point of them buying a new in-box game? Why not just wait two months to get a game? And there's a lot of people thinking that way. So, you know, that's an obvious concern. But I think overall, as long as good games are produced and as long as manufacturing keeps up a steady pace, you know, I think that overall everything will be just fine long term.
    118:46
    But short-term, though, I don't know. It's going to be interesting. I'm curious to see how this plays out going into quarter one, quarter two, and quarter three of next year.
    118:56
    That's a good answer. Tom, you want to just go ahead and burn those bridges? Do you want to go ahead and call anybody else? No, I don't because I already have a couple of hit men after me for some comments I made. So I better take the Fifth Amendment on this one. Yeah, I'm no marketing expert. I'm no business expert. I don't know any of that. But when I look at some of these companies, and there's a handful of companies out there that have had, you know, either one, two, three or more releases recently that haven't sold particularly well, if that's the case, it kind of becomes a, well, how long can you go? How long can you go? And then you have other companies that they sell out all their allotment day one, but then they take so long to make them that, sure, they earned a lot of money when they initially sold out, but that money can only be stretched so far, and it makes you wonder how far can it go.
    119:55
    I mean, I'm not – CGC, like I said, I love CGC. I would love to buy more games from them. I'm super impressed with them. I was a little nervous when I told Zach I wanted to get an SE+. Like, I was really nervous. like is CGC going to be able to get all the LEs out, yet alone make the SE pluses? It wasn't until Pulp Fiction came around, and then I had a little more reassurance of like, well, at least here's another game with a little more revenue that can support this. But I want them to be in business for many, many, many more years. But even you look at a juggernaut like Stern, I mean, they just brand new factory. That's a lot of money to move all that over. I know Venom hasn't sold exactly the way they wanted it to. I don't agree. I think it's a great game. I want more people to play this game. Foo Fighters really was awesome, but then Bond didn't do particularly well before that. But luckily, the next game that's coming is Elwynn. Pretty confident that's going to do just fine. So I feel pretty good. I feel pretty good about Stern.
    120:59
    But, yeah, there's some other manufacturers out there. I don't know. There's a lot of big question mark here. And it's weird to be in this hobby now, and Travis is gone.
    121:09
    Cameras cost a lot more, too, now, Joel. It's weird to see so many games in stock. It is very weird that so many games are in stock. And that's the tough part, too, is to consider this. If you see a ton of games in stock, that means that that business or that particular business has cash tied up in that. Obviously, you know, I mean, we talked about this in terms of, what was it, cash grabs? or money grabs, whatever people's calling it. It's like, yeah, there's cash grabs everywhere. That's why we're all in this business, because we have to make a profit. We have to make a living. So, yeah, that's, I don't know. That's my biggest concern for a lot of people is how is their cash flow going to be? Because it was super easy to not have to worry about it during 2020, 2021, early 2022, when everything's flying. But once things stop flying and cash gets tied up, then you've got to manage it a little bit. What are we going to see more? What are we going to see sooner? Are we going to see a pinball company fold, or are we going to see distributors fold? Like, which is the red flag? Are distributors going to run? Yeah, you'll see. Well, I think you'll see dealers fold before a manufacturer, yeah, because there is a difference between dealers and distributors. Distributors would be the huge, huge one. But, yeah, I think it's likely you'll see dealers go out of business, like not any of the big ones. But you've got to remember, there's just so many of them that somebody could just as easily, they're running it as a hobby, which, I mean, that's fine. That's their choice. And they may just as easily say, to hell with it. I don't want to mess around with it. I want to go off and do something else. So, yeah, that's just part of business. We're never going to run at 100% capacity. So, yeah, at some point, somebody's got to fold. Or at some point, somebody's got to sell off. That's just part of doing business. So, yeah, it's not easy. This isn't an easy time frame. because the easy time frame is when you have a theme that's just going to sell everything. You don't have to worry about your allocation. You just know that day one you're going to get phone calls off the hook. You're going to get all your pre-orders. You're going to get everybody saying they want the LDs, all this and that. That didn't happen for a lot of people to bet on. And that's kind of new for a lot of people. That's kind of new. That hasn't been happening for a long time, for a few years. So, you know, I don't think it's time to sound the alarm completely yet. But it's definitely, it should be an indicator of what the current pinball buyer is willing to accept and what they're not willing to accept, whether that's through theme, whether that's through design, whether that's through art, whatever. Like, all these are clues, you know, and you just got to find a way. What will the masses accept? You want to find something that the majority will want, and that's how you'll start to move X amount of units again. And that's always the goal for any company out there. All right, last question before we wrap her up.
    124:04
    Ash asks, types of rubbers used in competition? I've been using clear Perfect Plays as they are much cleaner, but they're so bouncy that I'm considering going back to standard rubbers. So specifically for competition, is there a go-to, like District 82, what is it that Eric just stocks up on? I'm not 100% sure what he uses I know in some of his games he has like silicone rubbers like super bands for the flippers on other ones he has the nice bouncy red rubber and other ones he just has the traditional black rubber but as far as flippers go and mostly the other rubbers are like your standard white or black kind of rubber rings just traditional rubber yeah okay um i know for me personally like at home i have tried the like the perfect play uh rubbers and i don't necessarily care for them i mean they they play fine they're easy to clean that's the nice thing but i'm just more of a traditionalist and i like you know the traditional rubbers i like i like the like black or red flipper rubber on my games um don't really care for super bands super bands are great on location because they just don't wear out um so i i totally understand somebody like operating a game and using them but as far as tournaments go, I really don't like them because the balls just don't bounce off of them after a while.
    125:56
    That's my take on it. I would say Suzo Hat, bed rubbers. Yeah, those are good ones. I have that on all my pins, though. You see that at a lot of high-level tournaments. It's really bouncy. Yeah, a little bit. You have to definitely be on your catches and your drop catches and everything. And it kind of adds like a weird spin to the ball a little bit too if you're not quite used to it. But honestly, if you learn how to play with Suzo Haps, you can pretty much play with any rubber out there. It makes everything else just feel super easy. So I would always tell everybody if you want to get better at the game, get some Suzo Haps and put it on your favorite machine at home.
    126:38
    Interesting. You know, from my tournament perspective, I just leave everything in stock. So I like the – I used to be all about Titan silicon rubbers. I think they're awesome. I think they look amazing. I used to, like, change all my rubbers and all my things. What changed, Joel? Well, one, borrowing games, I'm not going to waste time replacing them. And it's just like on Godzilla, I've been modding the heck out of it, but I just don't have any interest in changing the rubbers. I'm totally fine. You're modding everything else but the rubber. Yeah, it's like the – I'm totally fine with – Did you put the precision flippers on? I have not put the precision flippers on Godzilla yet. But I'm totally fine with just standard black rubber on the flippers. I'd consider changing maybe the swings to a clear silicone just because it lets more light through. But other than that, I'm good. I'm good with what I got. Well, thank you. Thank you for everybody that sent in questions. I appreciate that. I think we just – we are over two hours. So I think it's a matter of episode.
    127:41
    Yeah. Usually we shoot for right out about two and we are over it. We are over it tonight. When have we ever gone below to episode three on early on? You guys remember when this podcast started out, our plan was 45 minutes and that's it. And then we'll be done.
    127:58
    Yep. But now, now being that we record like every two, three, four ish weeks, you know, we make the most of it. We make only we did it weekly. weekly four hour podcast alright well let's plug it up Tom go for it I do a podcast called Triple Drain right here I also do streaming pinball for Fox City's pinball which is what I it's my job I don't have anything else I don't do anything else nothing else please follow me Yes, please follow. Give him all the love. He's going to be streaming a lot over the next two weeks. So definitely check him out. There's actual chains by the rig. It's pretty uncomfortable. Yeah, it's going to be great. Well, thank you, Tom. Thank you for doing that. Thank you. I look forward to watching.
    128:53
    Travis, plug away. You guys can find me right here on Triple Drain, and you can find my content over at my job on the Pinball Company's YouTube channel. And we're actually, Joel, you'll love this, for coming out with a new video tomorrow. So I guess by the time this comes out, it'll already be out. But I'm going to teach people how to beat Venom at their launch party. Not beat the whole game. Try to win your launch party. So I give my exact strategy that I would do. Well, maybe I should try it. You know, set some high scores on mine. Oh yeah, you could do that. I broke a billion. I didn't show it on this one, but honestly, if somebody's playing Venom and they just generally don't have a clue and they want the easy way to do it, just pick Peter Parker and just play as Peter Parker the whole entire time because you can still get your locks and your carnage is worth so much more during that time too. So that's what I would recommend. All right. So if you're going to a Venom launch party, pick Peter Parker. You're on your own from there. If you don't know what's going on. Got it. After you watch the video, you'll know exactly what's going on. You could decide if you want to use that strategy or not. Nice. Well, cool. Yeah. My name is Joel. I do this. an incredible podcast, a football podcast. I also do the, the flipping out stream every Wednesday night from 10 to midnight, uh, where we rotate doing like a chatting stream with flipping out with friends or an actual gameplay stream. Uh, we're streaming this week. I think we're going to play a little Rick and Morty before it leaves the house. Um, and then, um, after expo, we will probably do a flipping out with friends just doing like an expo review, which would be a good time. Um, I also did an interview with Brian Eddie that was posted a few days ago. It was really fun talking to him. So check out that interview. And that was not Joel and Friends. That was Flippin' Out and Friends, right? Do you have a Joel and Friends? No, it's always been Flippin' Out and Friends. I'm sure he had a Joel and Friends somewhere. It's Joel and Friends. It's always been Flippin' Out and Friends. Tom, didn't he have a Joel and Friends? No, we made that show. You made that up and you've been rolling with it. Damn it.
    130:55
    All right. Well, like always, Tom, you get the last words. have fun at your tournaments and expo