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Triple Drain Pinball Podcast Ep 19: Big Woody

Triple Drain Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·2h 6m·analyzed·Jun 23, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.037

TL;DR

Triple Drain hosts dissect GNR's honeymoon phase collapse, citing repetitive build-song cycles and linear gameplay despite strong initial spectacle.

Summary

Triple Drain hosts Joel, Tom, and Travis discuss their evolving impressions of Guns N' Roses pinball, concluding that while the game excels at spectacle and theming, it suffers from repetitive gameplay loops (build phase → song → reset) that wear thin over extended play. They contrast GNR's linear, narrow progression path with games like Avengers and Godzilla that offer multiple strategic approaches, and debate whether GNR's appeal is primarily to casual/new players rather than experienced pinball enthusiasts.

Key Claims

  • Guns N' Roses is highly polarizing—some love it initially then grow out of it; others hated it then grew into it; many don't care

    high confidence · Joel reports feedback from emails about GNR being 'very polarizing'; Travis confirms kids and non-pinball fans loved it, but experienced players were lukewarm

  • GNR's gameplay becomes repetitive: build phase → multiball song → reset to build phase, creating a 'rinse and repeat' loop

    high confidence · Joel describes streaming experience: 'build phase song build phase song build phase song over and over again'; consensus agreement from all three hosts

  • GNR has a narrow, linear optimal progression path focused on left ramp repetition to collect patches and lock balls

    high confidence · Joel details: 'every time I start a game, I feel like I'm doing the same thing... patches... left ramp over and over and over again'; Travis confirms 'left ramp focused heavy'

  • JJP machines sometimes ship with missing components: Travis received GNR with chipped scoop (no protector), later received another JJP game with no power cord

    high confidence · Travis: 'where the scoop is, there was no protector there, and it was already chipped... no power cord that came with it... Anytime I get a Jersey Deck pin, I'm missing something'

  • GNR's wizard modes (4 of them) are designed to be skipped/timed out rather than played for points—community tells streamers 'don't play the wizard mode'

    high confidence · Joel: 'when I get to the wizard mode... they're like, don't play the wizard mode... just don't... they're basically telling me, ignore the wizard modes'

  • GNR appeals strongly to new/casual players and non-pinball enthusiasts but loses appeal quickly for experienced tournament players

    high confidence · Travis: 'people that had been in pinball for a long time... novelty wore off after a few games, whereas people that had never really played pinball before, they were hooked'; Joel: not tournament material

  • Tom and Joel still own GNR but consider it on their 'chopping block' for future sale; neither plans to keep it long-term in limited collections

Notable Quotes

  • “I was blown away, blown away by the experience. And I was warned, like I was kind of warned by Tom. I was kind of warned by Travis.”

    Joel @ ~06:30 — Establishes Joel's initial GNR euphoria and foreshadowing of comedown by experienced hosts

  • “The first time I streamed it was just like discovering the game... then the second stream... then the last few times I've streamed it, what I've found is it is very kind of rinse and repeat.”

    Joel @ ~12:00 — Documents the transition from discovery phase to monotony through streaming iterations

  • “It's very much, you have the build phase before the song, and then you have the song... as soon as you get out of that song, you're back to square one.”

    Joel @ ~13:00 — Core critique: structural repetitiveness of GNR's core loop

  • “I don't think I've ever seen people divide it over a certain pin as much as GNR when it came to just playing the game.”

    Travis @ ~24:00 — Emphasizes GNR's extreme polarization in the player community

  • “Where the scoop is, there was no protector there, and it was already chipped... So I went back and forth to Jersey Jack for a while, and I don't think I ever got a scoop.”

    Travis @ ~27:00 — Quality control issue; pattern of missing components on JJP machines

  • “It's one of the first times that I felt kind of overwhelmed with the rule set at the very beginning... once you figured out the path that you needed to go to, it became very narrow.”

    Tom @ ~42:00 — Contrasts GNR's opaque onboarding with its narrow optimal play path

  • “Don't give me modes in the game that you have to achieve that you're then telling me you don't need to do.”

    Joel @ ~67:00 — Criticizes wizard mode design philosophy: earned modes should be worth playing

  • “If it weren't for Cliff Protector... I was just kind of like, okay, this is the ongoing theme.”

Entities

JoelpersonTompersonTravispersonJersey Jack PinballcompanyGuns N' Roses (GNR)gameToy StorygameAvengersgame

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball quality control issues: recurring pattern of missing/damaged components on arrival (GNR missing scoop protector; separate JJP machine missing power cord)

    high · Travis: 'Anytime I get a Jersey Deck pin, I'm missing something'; went 'back and forth to Jersey Jack for a while' without resolution

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: GNR ownership split: hosts/collectors ready to sell; casual/non-pinball players strongly attach to it; tournament players avoid it; polarization unprecedented

    high · Travis: 'I don't think I've seen people divide it over a certain pin as much as GNR'; Joel: 'would be happy to have [it] in a 10-pin collection' but not in 4-pin; Tom: 'chopping block'

  • ?

    product_concern: GNR's core gameplay loop (build phase → multiball song → reset) is fundamentally repetitive; hosts describe it as 'rinse and repeat' that wears thin over 2+ hours of play

    high · Joel: 'it's very kind of rinse and repeat... build phase song build phase song build phase song over and over again'; consensus across all three hosts

  • ?

    design_philosophy: GNR's wizard modes (4 total) are designed to be skipped/timed out rather than played; contradicts game design philosophy that earned modes should be rewarding

    high · Joel: 'don't give me modes in the game that you have to achieve that you're then telling me you don't need to do'; contrast with Avengers Soul Gem and Godzilla wizard modes as highlights

  • ?

    design_philosophy: GNR's optimal progression path is overly linear and narrow, centered on left-ramp repetition for patch collection; lacks the multi-path adaptability of elite games like Avengers or Godzilla

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.378

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching Triple Drain Pinball Podcast. Tom, you ready? Yes. All right. Thanks for being here, Tom. Thanks for being here on time. Thanks for being professional. Thank you that all your audio equipment works. Thank you that you look great, your video's on, you sound great. Thank you for all of that. You're welcome. Travis, thanks for doing literally none of that.
0:32
Maybe poor man's podcast will let me on. All right, here we go. Well, Tom, first off, I feel like I need to apologize for your ears, because I had to turn up my headphones to hear Travis. I know you turned up your headphones to hear Travis. And so we just played the theme song, and that was very loud.
1:13
So, Travis, thank you for the permanent ear damage that both of us just suffered. What is going on, Travis? Why do you suck at technology, like in every way? You know, my producer isn't here, so they're on vacation. And that's the only excuse I have. So we've been warned that, well, first off, his audio is very quiet. Why is my audio so low? I just now noticed that on the waveform. Because we've told you your audio is low. That's why we both turned our headphones up to hear you. And the listener won't know that because I will adjust all this in post. But audio is Travis is barely coming in. Audio is, wow, Travis's audio is barely coming in, not to mention his video is not coming in at all because this dingus doesn't even have a camera. Nope. Nothing. Nope. I just got little old piddly waveforms showing up.
2:06
I don't know. I'd say it's the best you've ever looked, but it's not like we just spring this on him. We don't say, hey, we're going to record in five minutes. He's known about this a few days, and this is the professionalism he's bringing to the podcast.

high confidence · Tom: 'it's kind of on the chopping block'; Joel: 'is it a game that I want in my four-pin collection? No'

  • Elite pinball games (Avengers, Godzilla, Elwin titles) offer multiple viable strategic paths; players can adjust tactics mid-game if initial shot plan fails

    high confidence · Joel on Avengers: 'I would go in with a game plan... I'd biff the shot... completely change my strategy... scoring higher'; consensus on Godzilla offering risk-reward adaptability

    • Travis @ ~27:30 — Highlights recurring manufacturing/QA issues with JJP products

  • “That's what Jersey Jack is kind of going right now with GNR and Toy Story, that they're really focusing on themes that resonate with people, that have a lot of fans, that might have some staying power.”

    Travis @ ~31:00 — JJP's strategic direction: IP-driven design over innovative mechanics

  • “If I had a larger collection, if I could afford to own 10 pins or something, I'd keep it... But I would be happy to have that in a 10-pin collection.”

    Joel @ ~34:00 — GNR deemed valuable as novelty/spectacle piece in large collection, not as core game

    • Godzilla
    game
    Metallicagame
    The Simpsonsgame
    Deadpoolgame
    Total Nuclear Annihilation (TNA)game
    Triple Drain Pinball Podcastorganization
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    CGCcompany
    Elwincompany
    Pin Monkperson/vendor
    Never Drains (with Z)person/vendor
    Carlperson
    Weird Algame
    Stranger Thingsgame
    Indianapolis Pinball League (Indisc)organization

    high · Joel: 'every time I start a game, I feel like I'm doing the same thing'; Tom: 'once you figured out the path... it became very narrow'; Travis: 'left ramp over and over and over again'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts advocate for game design offering multiple viable strategic paths (like Elwin's Avengers/Godzilla) where mid-game adaptation is rewarded, contrasting with GNR's narrow linear progression

    high · Joel on Avengers: 'I would go in with a game plan... completely change my strategy and scoring higher than normal'; consensus that this is superior design

  • $

    market_signal: Speculation that Toy Story (upcoming JJP) may repeat GNR's core problem: spectacle-driven design without innovative/varied gameplay mechanics

    medium · Joel: 'if Toy Story is as good as this game, like I'm screwed'; uncertainty about whether JJP learned from GNR's limitations

  • $

    market_signal: GNR highly polarizes experienced vs. casual players; strong appeal to new/non-pinball players; weak appeal for tournament-focused collectors (Tom/Travis on chopping block)

    high · Travis: 'people that had been in pinball for a long time... novelty wore off after a few games, whereas people that had never really played pinball before, they were hooked'; Tom: 'not a game I'm going to see at a tournament'

  • ?

    product_concern: GNR's rule set lacks intuitive shot mapping; requires repeated play to internalize which shots trigger desired outcomes; contrasts negatively with Stern/Spooky/CGC games

    high · Tom: 'it's very hard for it to be intuitive... unless you're reading that little box... or just play the song so much you get used to knowing what you're supposed to hit'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Joel experienced dramatic honeymoon-phase collapse with GNR: from 'blown away' initial unboxing to 'officially out of the honeymoon phase' within weeks after streaming; now treats game as 1-2 play novelty

    high · Joel: 'I was just in love... absolutely in love... and then... I've streamed it now probably four times... the last few times... it is very kind of rinse and repeat'

  • ?

    business_signal: JJP's design direction appears focused on IP/theme resonance over mechanical innovation; hosts question whether upcoming Toy Story will avoid GNR's repetitiveness

    medium · Travis: 'Jersey Jack is kind of going right now with GNR and Toy Story... they're really focusing on themes that resonate with people'; Joel: 'if JJP can continue down this route... maybe one will stay in my collection'

    • 2:18
    Tom, Travis is the only – My headphones are going to go out if we don't start. It's going to happen. I'm telling you. Travis talks fast. He's the only one of us out of the three that actually creates pinball media as his job, and he can't show up to a podcast in any professional manner. All of my stuff is at my office. That's my excuse right now. Right, right, right, right, right. All right, so we're just going to dive in short and sweet. So, listeners, we're going to do just a real quick catch-up, what's happened in the last few weeks with us, and then basically it's going to be Toy Story the whole time. So if you don't care about Toy Story, oh, God. So the one visual Big Woody has, by the way, is his name. Travis can erase his name. I'm trying to fix my mic. Just ignore it. I didn't mean to raise my hand. You don't have to raise your hand to fix your mic. I'm not trying to raise my hand to fix my mic. I'm just matching buttons, and I just happened to accidentally hit them. This is what I have to deal with. I highly doubt matching buttons is going to magically solve your problem. You know what? It's worked in the past, so I'm just going to try anything. I'm going to take the cartridge out and start blowing on it at this rate. Okay. All right. That's a Nintendo reference. Oh, I absolutely remember. Do you know blowing on it? It's not actually blowing off dust is what cleans the cartridge. It's actually the moisture in your breath that improves the connectivity between the cartridge and the Nintendo. That's what fixed it. Yep. Well, no wonder Tripod Tom never had an issue with his Nintendo. I never had a Nintendo. Oh.
    3:55
    Is that why you get all the LEs down? You're just like picking up your dollars? I was in the wrong system when I was a kid. I think I had TurboGrafx-16.
    4:07
    One of those, yeah. Were you a Sega kid then, too? Yeah, I had Sega Genesis. You probably had a homebrew Pong, I bet.
    4:16
    Parents just gave him two paddles and a ping pong ball and he just headed it back and forth. All those, yeah. Well done. All right, so catch up, real quick catch up. We actually got a few emails about, so first off, appreciate everybody that sends us, whether it's a Facebook message directly or to the tripledrain at gmail.com. It is just tripledrain at gmail.com, right? Yeah. Tripledrain at gmail.com. Thank you for those. We had some really good feedback, and a few of them were about GNR. And it sounds like Guns N' Roses is a very polarizing pin. And, you know, there are definitely people that loved it, then kind of grew out of that. Other people that hated it, then grew into that. And then other people that have just been, they just don't care.
    5:02
    What I wanted to bring up is last time Tom and Travis were kind of giving me a hard time, that I was in love with GNR. Oh, my goodness, GNR was incredible. And I will tell you 100%, when I got this game, the unboxing experience was fantastic. comparing this brand new GNR LE, the powder coating, the Invisiglass, all the toys, everything that's in that game, the light show. It just blew me away with how much was in this game. And I was comparing it right next to a Deadpool premium that I've had powder coated. And it was just like, holy crap, there's so much in this game. Then I start playing it and the immersive experience, the call outs, the music, the light show, everything was awesome. Pin Monk actually sent me a set of the flipper cooling fans. So I have those on my game. I also had a guy, the Never Drains, Never Drains with a Z, had sent me a kit with his upgrade to basically make the LE like a CE. And I just, because of the flipper fans, I was able to keep my flippers nice and snappy. I had no mushy feeling with the flippers. It just, I will tell you, the first two, three weeks of me owning this game, I was just in love. I was just absolutely in love with this game. And not only that, I was just like, holy crap, like JJP, this is like the screen, the other screen and like this is amazing. And if Toy Story is as good as this game, like I'm screwed. I can't I can only fit four games. Like part of me was like, do I need to buy this game from Zach? And then not only that, do I need to start saving or preparing myself to buy Toy Story? Am I going to be like, am I going to shift my entire collection to JJP? JJP. Like that's how these are the thoughts that were in my head. Like I was blown away, blown away by the experience. And I was warned, like I was kind of warned by Tom. I was kind of warned by Travis. Like they both had really great initial impressions. They absolutely had really great initial impressions. And then it kind of fades away or it wears off. And I mean, Tom, We talked about this a little bit before recording because we were waiting on Travis. And so you agree, like your initial experience with GNR was similar to what I just described, correct? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And then what happened? Like how long or what changed? It took one day. One day.
    7:32
    Just kidding. No, it took a couple months. But, yeah, eventually, you know, new stuff comes out and you push the other games aside and start playing the other games. Yeah. Well, what did it for me, and this is what I'm saying, is I feel like I'm officially out of the honeymoon phase with GNR. But what's done it for me is streaming the game. I've streamed the game now probably four times. first time I streamed it was just like discovering the game like just being blown away by things and having chat tell me about the patches and having chat tell me about well you should do this and do this and and realizing the depth that's actually in that game and I came away from that stream I was like this is incredible this game's incredible then the second stream I it was kind of like all right that this game's actually really fun but the last few times I've streamed it, what I've found is it is very kind of rinse and repeat. Like it is very much, you have the build phase before the song, and then you have the song. And sure, every song is different depending on what you want to do. The songs are a very different experience, but as soon as you get out of that song, you're back to square one. You're back to the build phase. You're back to doing the same thing. How many balls do I want to lock? Do I want to be grabbing patches? Do I want to maximize this multi-ball how far do i want to push this oh i only pushed it i'm only going to go to three ball let me get back in and it's just like to realize to play this game for two plus hours straight it's just build phase song build phase song build phase song over and over again and yes there are many wizard modes well you get welcome to the jungle too at some point and all that all the like as one of the songs or is that yeah it's it's one of the songs well you could to the jungle you want me to sing it for you please do yeah no i don't want us to get dmca'd oh right right that'd be horrible but the songs are great like don't get me wrong but it's the build phase it's like you push and push and push and push in the song and then you're like and i'm saying push i i suck i'm so bad like i'm either draining oh song's over or i'm like i'm just like i need a victory i need even if it's a small victory i need a victory i'm gonna cash out and then it's like crap i'm back to the build phase again and that to me was where the it started to wear off a little bit of the the greatness that is gnr and i and so where i am currently with gnr is i still very much like the game i still give it a thumbs up and what i've kind of said is what it does well it does very well and that game what i've found is i'll come down to the basement and i always put a game on it because i enjoy the build phase and then i enjoy getting into a song but like i only have to play it one or two times like one or two games and then i'm good like i've got my fill and i'm ready to go play something else and it just doesn't draw me back in for a long period of time like some of my other games do. So to be reading some of the GNR owners' threads, it amazes me that there are people that own just this game or they only own like a two-pin collection. Like I just – it would be hard for me to play GNR for, you know, all night. It just doesn't – I don't know. It doesn't draw me in. And I'm curious if you two – I mean, Travis, you had the game and sold the game. have I finally got to where you guys were or what I mean what yeah what was it or where I don't know your overall feelings of it today in terms of like why I sold it or just how I feel about it sure that rollercoaster of ownership and then selling well to be fair I basically I bought it knowing that I was going to sell it eventually you didn't get a scoop protector oh yeah That was a thing, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that was a thing. So, yeah, basically what happened was I unboxed the game, and then I'm looking at it, and where the scoop is, there was no protector there, and it was already chipped. So I'm like, what the hell? Like, there was a piece of wood already hanging off of it, like kind of up in the air before I even put one game into it. So, yeah, that was a little bit concerning, and I went back and forth to Jersey Jack for a while, And I don't think I ever got a scoop. I think it was offered to get a hold of Cliffy, I guess, for Scoop Protector. Didn't they ask you, like, why did you take it off? Why did you take it off? And you're like, I didn't. It did not come with my game. I think they asked me what happened to the scoop. Oh. I was like, that's a great question. I want to know. So, well, the hilarious part is to bring this full circle with a certain game that I got from them again that I won't name yet because I don't want to give it away. But it turns out there was no power cord that came with it. So I was just kind of like, okay, this is the ongoing theme. Anytime I get a Jersey Deck pin, I'm missing something on it. I don't know what it is. At least they didn't forget the computers. Yeah, they're going to leave something out. The power cord is about as good as you can get. But so anyways, all that aside, I got a GNR knowing I was just going to play it for a little while at home and then it was going to go in its merry way. So I already knew that it wasn't going to stay because I'd played it before on location, and, you know, it wasn't a game that I could tell I wasn't going to click with too much, but I wanted a chance to play it in a home setting. My kids wanted a chance to play it. My wife wanted a chance to play it. So, you know how it goes. When kids and wife want a certain game, you say, okay, we'll go ahead and do this. We'll try it out. And, I mean. We're going to hear more about that later. Oh, yeah, exactly. So, but, I mean, the kids loved it. I enjoyed it for what it was. I mean, I didn't, I did all the Carl things on it to where I wanted to, I guess, quoting Joel, I pushed and pushed and I pushed some more. And then I just kept pushing the game as far across the room as I could to score points and all that. So it just, you know, it was what it was. It was fun while it lasted, but much like Joel talked about one night stands with a pen, mine was kind of like it hung out over the weekend, and it kind of squatted in my house for a little while for a couple months before I sent it on its way. But, I mean, it was fun for what it was. My kids really enjoyed it. They liked all the lights and the concert and stuff like that. But every time I had somebody come over and play it, though, it was probably, I would say, six or seven times out of ten. It just did not click with people at all to where they were just kind of like, okay, I got a chance to play it. I saw what it was like, and it's not for me. And then there was a couple that just absolutely loved it that weren't pinball people because they were like, oh, I'm getting extra balls just flying all around the play field. I have no idea how it happened, but there's loud music and there's lights and there's sound, and they enjoyed that. So, I mean, it's one of those situations to where when it comes with pinball, themes mean everything and they mean different things to different people. And just, you know, just because we all have certain preferences doesn't mean that somebody else is going to hold the same preference. And I think GNR is just one of those pins to where I don't think I've seen people divide it over a certain pin as much as GNR when it came to just playing the game and kind of sensing what was going on. because I noticed that people that had been in pinball for a long time, I guess the newness of it or the novelty of it kind of wore off after a few games, whereas the people that had never really played pinball before, they were hooked so much more to it. And so, I mean, that could be a good thing overall. I mean, they obviously sold a lot, and if GNR fans are happy, that's all that really matters because I think that's where Jersey Jack is kind of going right now with GNR and Toy Story, that they're really focusing on themes that resonate with people, that have a lot of fans, that might have some staying power. So, I mean, I'm sure there's something to that.
    15:53
    Yeah, and I'm – so the friends and family test, right? We actually had a bunch of friends over and family over the last week. So that's a funny thing. You know how you guys were giving me a hard time last week because I was coughing and I said, no, it's not COVID. False. I never tested positive for COVID and neither did my son, but both my wife and my daughter did. So we did the whole quarantine thing. It was great. Yeah, we knew it, Tom. Now that we're through that, yeah, now that we're through it, it's like, finally, we can have people over. We can do things. We can like, I don't know. So we've actually had a bunch of people over, which has been awesome. But GNR, every single time, even some of my pinball friends, it's just like they love watching me play a song. but when I go to show them like the build phase, there's seven band members. Like it's a lot to get to a song and JJP knows that because if you bomb out the first two balls, they kind of give it to you in ball three. But anybody that played it, it was basically kind of a one game. Like they were good with one game and onto the next game. And what it always comes down to, it always ends up being co-op games on TNA. Like that's the thing that people that come to my house want to do is co-op games on TNA, which I'm fine with. I love it. But where I'm at right now with GNR, if I had a larger collection, if I could afford to own 10 pins or something, I'd keep it. I would love GNR. That risk-reward kind of experience, it reminds me a lot of Metallica of the risk-reward. But I would be happy to have that in a 10-pin collection or something. And if I ever go to a bar or go over to a friend's house and they have GNR, I will gladly step up and put in a game or two. just because it's what it does it does really well really really well but it i this is the first time that i've had such an amazing initial impression of a game that i was like holy crap i'm gonna completely redo my lineup and sell my pins to own this game and then over a few weeks like i don't know kind of come to my senses and like okay and but to be real my thought was like all right if jjp can continue down this route of amazing toys amazing mechs amazing light show amazing immersion maybe one of these next pins will just kind of have code that fits my needs or my wants and maybe one will stay in my collection so that's kind of a solid transition to you know that's kind of what i was thinking in my head when toy story was rolling around and um i don't know do either of you guys have anything else to kind of wrap up gnr i mean tom you still own GNR. So is that like, when you think of your chopping block, is that next on the list? Or is there a reason it's still in your basement? Oh, boy, that's a tough question.
    18:45
    Yeah, I mean, it's kind of on the chopping block, just because I, you know, I gravitate more towards tournaments. And so does Travis. it's just not a game I'm going to see at a tournament. So for me, it's kind of like, I don't know if I want to keep it. You just guaranteed that it'll be at Indisc next year.
    19:10
    Then I'll hang on to it. Carl's pretty dang good at GNR, so if it's at Indisc. I think one of the things about GNR, too, that I've noticed, and you guys can correct me if I'm wrong, It really seems like when we get other pins and we're playing it, right, we, at least for Tom and I, Joel, I don't know about you. You can correct me if I'm wrong on this correction if I'm wrong. But after a while, we really start focusing in on, okay, what's the code in terms of the rule set? What shot leads to next? What do we do here? What do we do there? Right. And it feels like with GNR, you don't necessarily come around to that unless you force yourself to just do that. because a lot of GNR is just the experience of playing GNR because you want to hear all the different songs because it has so many songs on it, and it has such a different light show. And yet, because of the light show, you really don't know what you're shooting at unless you're reading that little box or that little monitor in the back, or you just play the song so much you get used to knowing what you're supposed to hit when you're supposed to hit it. But it's very hard for it to be intuitive at the very beginning of it. And for somebody that doesn't play a certain song over and over and over again, it's never going to truly be intuitive for them. And so I think that's really the big difference between GNR and, say, anything else that's Stern, that, you know, with Stern pins, it's pretty intuitive what you're going to do next for the most part. With Spooky pins, it's pretty intuitive what you're going to do next for the most part. With Weird Al, it's pretty intuitive what you're going to do next. CGC games, same way. So with GNR, I didn't necessarily get that. And it's one of the first times that I felt kind of overwhelmed with the rule set at the very beginning trying to figure it out. But then once you figured out the path that you needed to go to, it became very narrow in that sense that you knew what patches you needed to get to basically up the amount of time that you can hold a ball in a flipper to know basically how to really juice up your song, so on and so forth. And that's where it becomes very linear in that sense that you realize that there is all these other rules to the game, but you still go down a very linear path towards getting huge points for that game. At least when I had it, the code might be completely different now in terms of the wizard modes being in. I don't know because I haven't played it in a long time, but that's the way it was for me a little over a year ago when I had the game. So that's the big difference that I've seen. And when people came over to play it, it wasn't necessarily me telling them, hey, hit this shot or here's where your huge jackpot is or hit this spinner or do anything like that. It was just, okay, start a song and just start, you know, flipping out, you know, just keep flipping over and over and over again and just see what happens. So, yeah, that was basically GNR in a nutshell for me. You are 100% correct because every time I start a game, I feel like I'm doing the same thing. It's like, all right, these are the patches I want to collect. It's a lot of left ramp because the left ramp is where you're either going to, if you don't do anything in the left ramp and the left ramp in the upper play field and the left ramp just drops down, it'll collect one of the GNR letters, which works for your patches. Otherwise, if the diverter's up and it comes like loops around, it'll feed that middle in lane GNR letter. So it's like if you're collecting patches, it's just left ramp over and over and over again. And I like the patch system, but just like you talked about, It's having it be at the same shot over and over again is what made it grindy. If they would kind of spread it out over the course of the play field and allow for a little bit of, I don't know, a little bit of different gameplay in that way, it might not have felt so wood choppy. But if you wanted to achieve a certain thing, you would have to chop a lot of wood before doing the thing. Yep. A lot of left ramp and then locking balls. Locking balls to get on to, before you start the song, left ramp. Got to get to that upper play field. typically one of the last band members I collect was the bass player you got to go to left ramp so it's like I start a new game I'm going up the left ramp it's like what do I want to prioritize right now letting it drain to get my GNR letters or should I prioritize locking balls or should I prioritize trying to hit back onto the bass ramp like it's all left ramp focused heavy so as soon as I get out of a song what am I focusing on left ramp and I and I mentioned that during one of my streams and they're like well just ignore patches like just allow your just ignore it you don't have Maybe focus on multiballs. It's like, I get it. I mean, I can mentally kind of change the way I want to play. But at the same time, you know, going into a multiball, you want to have balls locked, which is left ramp. And what I've also found is, in my head at least, I kind of approach most of the songs in one of three ways. It's, you know, is this song a song that you want to have a multiball going on? Like it's switch hit based or it's a ton of shots that are all lit. And then there's other songs that it's almost like a sniper, like roaming shots. and you have to really hone in on one particular area. And if you have five balls bouncing around, it's really hard to do that. And so every song is kind of a where am I at? I only have two balls locked. Do I want to type, you know, approach? Which song type do I want to approach? You know, focus on this or, oh, I'm going to have all six balls focused. Let me find that song that's all switch hits, you know, and I'll progress through that song really, really well because I got everything flying around.
    24:28
    So I don't know. It's very unique. I still very much enjoy the game, but is it a game that I want in my four-pin collection? No. And is it a game that when you stream a game or play it for two hours straight, you know, it reminds me a lot of, like, Simpsons. It's got a ton to do, but once you kind of find a path, you still, you kind of feel like you're always doing that path. And all of a sudden, this super wide, you know, game with all this depth and breadth, you're just becomes very narrow and you're right well it's the one thing because in our nature too we want to score as many points as possible and so it just becomes counterintuitive because i'm sure you've probably heard this i just want to watch the videos yeah exactly what are you talking about that's what i mean that's where the counterintuitive part comes we we've all three of us have heard from people that say well don't worry about the points just just hit this and just see what happens here well then i feel like i'm just playing like i'm just game testing then and I'm just, like, seeing what does what. And I like doing that at the beginning, but then when it comes down to it, I'm still a creature of habit. I want to put up a big score, and I want to keep putting up a big score. And I'm sorry, but the patch that's just, like, worth ass, I'm not going to drive for that and use that. So, I mean, that's what we do as players is we find the things in a game that can help us score the most points, and we find the path of least resistance. And that's kind of where it comes down to. Now, the difference is, is that there's plenty of games out there, too, most of them L wins, that you have different paths that you can take to achieve the same goal. And that's the huge difference in it, that it doesn't feel like it's necessarily chopping wood when you have different game openings that you can do from ball one. And you have different things that you can fall back on when something doesn't work. A lot of times, some of these games out there, it's like if you don't do the first thing correct, then you're just kind of in jail just hoping, okay, you can figure it out from there. And that's what I like about games, when they have something to where you have different ways of attacking it and different ways to get to the same spot at the end of the game. Yeah, you're 100%. And Elwin obviously is like the goat at that. I know Avengers, I would go in with a game plan of, okay, I'm going to go Power Gem first, and I'm going to put it on this shot. And then, of course, I'd biff the shot. It would end up somewhere else. And it's like, well, I need to completely change my strategy. And all of a sudden I'm doing something I normally don't do, and I'm scoring higher than I normally do. Like that really, I mean, it's a very, you really got to think your way through a game like Avengers. But Godzilla is showing that too. Godzilla has got all the risk reward you could hope for. You know, how much do I want to push it in this city? Oh, you know, I wasn't planning on starting this multiball, but I'm close. Let me, you can adjust, adapt. Yeah, and I don't know. So, yeah, GNR, I totally agree with you. The fun parts are the songs. And what really bummed me out is if you push it and you get to the wizard mode, I was going to stream, and a lot of times they're like, don't play the wizard mode. Like, there's no points in the wizard mode. They're like, just don't. They're basically telling me, ignore the wizard modes. It's like, well, that's four modes in a game that I'm being told don't do. And then, like, Slash, if you get enough Slash spins, he has a kind of mini wizard mode. Yeah, and that would, like, break you out of stuff. and you're like, when is this going to end? Yeah, they're like, well, just trap up and time it out. It's like, don't give me modes in the game that you have to achieve that you're then telling me you don't need to do. Like, some of my favorite modes, like, once again on Avengers, getting to Soul Gem is, like, kind of the highlight of the game. I freaking love Soul Gem. And now look at Godzilla. Godzilla, the last two wizard modes they've added. What is, like, Tom, you've gotten to a few. I know, like, it's like when you get to Godzilla power-up something, Now you have Terror of Mechagodzilla. Exactly. It's like you have these wizard modes that are super unique. Monster Hero. Yeah, you're almost like wanting, like, yes, I got to it. Now I get to experience this, you know, crazy thing. Like, that's what you want. You're kind of getting into game theory, too, that technically when you start a certain mode, especially when it comes to pinball that you want to be able to have a reason to play said mode and a lot of times if a mode becomes a priority over everything else well it better be worth it to go after that compared to compared to anything else in the game otherwise it does become an option to time it out you know stranger things does that too with the demodogs you know a lot of times there's absolutely zero point to playing that yeah it's worth a million but guess what you're going to be hitting targets and you're going to be all over the place. There's no point. So, you know, if it were me and I was able to code a game or put in rules, I would just personally want to make sure that if I'm going to make you earn something and you're going to play it, I don't necessarily want it to be a priority unless you're hitting actual shots on the game as opposed to a target or just a spinning disc or anything like that. Like I want somebody to actually hit different shots on the game, go through different progression and make it worth your while to play that mode because you already earned the right to play that mode now you need to have a reason to keep playing it and obviously if you're timing out certain modes you already know that the risk reward just isn't there you know and if it's not there then it should somebody should figure out how to make it be there to make it worth your while so a perfect example is mech suit multiball in deadpool you know it's it's something you're kind of chipping away at, and then you can realize, oh, I'm close to this. Let me get a few more combos. Boom, got my 45 combos. Let me get into this. And then, you know, imagine if mech suit multiball was something that you would trap up and just let. Like, that would be so disappointing. I would be devastated as to my coding a game if players were telling me that they were trapping up the timeout, a certain mode that I put in. But, I mean, that goes to it. You've got to give players a reason to do something. And it's not just, you know, Slash or even, you know, Stranger Things. There's been all kinds. I mean, Star Trek went through that when it first came out. You know, if you give players a chance to trap up and time out, they're going to do it. I mean, it's just the reality of it. Well, and I'm curious. I mean, I don't know. At this point, I have no idea if GNR is, like, all buttoned up and done or if these, you know, if this is criticism that, yeah, at some point in time. I mean, Joe Katz, obviously, with Wonka did kind of a whole Wonka 2.0. And I'm not saying GNR needs a 2.0. But if the four wizard modes are all modes that most of your players are just trapping up on, like, you know, I'm no expert, but it would be cool. You know, you've invested time and energy coding this mode. Do something to make it worth your while. Same thing with the slash mode. And I haven't done the tour mode. I said that right. You said it wrong. Tour. You're an idiot. So I haven hit that yet But I mean still we can finish I know people are probably sick of GNR but at the end of the day what it does it does very very well And in a bigger collection, I think it's worth owning. It's quite an immersive experience. And maybe if GNR was a band, if I was like, if I love GNR as much as Tom likes Rush, or even maybe half as much as Tom likes Rush, I would, you know, maybe this would never leave just because it does GNR so well. visually, the audio, the video. If you're a GNR fan, you're going to want this in your collection.
    32:03
    Rush blows GNR away. I'm sorry. Yeah. I know. Like, it's funny. I mean, Rush was a game. We talked about this. Rush was a game. Right now, Joel, Rush or GNR?
    32:17
    In a four-pin collection? Right now, Rush or GNR? I'll tell you this. If I had to – Joel. I'm trying to shoot you. Joel, if you had to tell me that I had to. Rush or GNR, Joel? I would say, okay, long-term, I would probably still keep GNR. Joel, oh, my God. You're like my wife. Rush or GNR. Which one? I'm telling you my answer. If long-term, it's just in my basement, I would probably keep GNR. No, I would probably keep GNR. You said GNR twice. You just said it twice. Yes. All right. He's qualifying it. I'm just saying rush or GNR. Yes, but what I was saying. So if the moon is going through a solstice and there's an eclipse over here and the tidal waves go this way, I might say Rush. No, I told you guys that when I had Rush, I got to the point where I was like, I don't want to stream this game anymore. But I didn't want to stream it, not because it was a bad game or the code was bad. It just kicked my butt over and over and over again and pissed me off. But now I'm at a point where if Zach was like, hey, do you want to stream? GNR for three more months or do you want to have a Rush Premium dropped off at your house to stream for three more months? I think I'd take the Rush Premium. I would rather have another shot at the Rush to really dive into that code. Rush actually gives me options when I stream and that's what I miss. Tom, I swear to God, he's just like Monica. He just gave me both as an answer. I asked either one and he's just like both.
    33:52
    It's very political. I'm not trying to be Which is the better game to stream? You see that fence behind him? We need to make him just sit on it for the rest of the podcast. Ask me the same question, Travis. All right.
    34:05
    Tom Graff. Rush or GNR? Well, no, Rush. Oh, my God. If I could just flip you both off right now and I had a camera, I would.
    34:17
    I mean, maybe the truthful answer is I don't really want to own either of them. It's not a game that's making my top. Neither of them, for me personally, it doesn't make my top five. You know, I can't. But that's what, yeah. I do miss streaming. Like, I would rather stream a Rush Premium moving forward than to keep streaming GNR. I have both of my hands on my head right now. I was just thinking, what was your other choice again that Zach gave you?
    34:45
    Star Wars Premium. Which I think now looking back on it would have been, I would have way more options. and way more routes and way more things to do, like different wizard modes and things to – that's one thing, too. There's like 150 songs on GNR. What are you talking about? But it's not – like I like playing for progression, and it's not – if that's my goal, it's just like, well, I just want to play every song, then build it, play a song. Oh, game's over. Let me try another song. Well, you had to experience GNR in a hundred percent to get it. And that's why I will tell you I do think higher of JJP now. I am very impressed with this product I do think it's I understand completely why this game is as polarizing as it is that totally makes sense to me now you did your homework that needs to be applauded you did well as part of the pinball content creation community good job can we get firm handshakes all around for Joel thank you well done we can wrap that up put a nice little bow on it let's just put the Now in the car. G&R. So what's number two? With that said. Nobody put that out. Yeah, Wednesday night I'll be streaming G&R. So go watch me stream it. Big Woody's typing. Big Woody, there's no need for a list. There's literally, we're already on the last topic. What's that? That's his number two. All right. So what we're going to talk about is Toy Story. So first let's do a kind of a disclosure. I think I, did I already say this? I already said that Tom, Travis, and I, we've known about this. Did we talk about this before or have we actually recorded? Have I talked about this? I knew nothing, Joel. I don't know what you're talking about. Okay, so if I'm repeating myself to the listener, I'm sorry. But what I wanted to tell you guys is we knew the reveal was coming. We never knew a date. But we have known, Tom, Travis, and I have known that this was going to be Toy Story 4 for, I don't know, weeks now, maybe longer. I know I was told, I was actually emailed by a few people and like, hey, I know on your last podcast you said this and this, but did you know that? And which is great. I appreciate the inside information. But the three of us have known this and we've been kind of discussing it in the background. So maybe that's step one. When each one of us heard that this was going to be Toy Story 4, what was your initial reaction? So, Tom, when you heard, hey, heads up, it's just Toy Story 4, what did you think? I was like, are you kidding me? Yeah.
    37:23
    Well, basically, I still haven't seen Toy Story 4. So I've seen the first three movies, but I've never watched the fourth one for some reason. But I thought it was an odd choice that they chose the fourth movie.
    37:40
    Yeah. Travis? I immediately threw away all my forks in my house. So, like, okay, back to the future. I hate that character. I'm just letting you guys know now, I love Toy Story. I hate that character, and I don't say that lightly. Like, I usually don't hate anything, you know, except for David Dennis sometimes. But, man, like, if I had to choose between saving David Dennis or Forky, I'd rather rescue – No, I'd rescue David Dennis. I would rather do that. That's a poor choice. I hate Forky. Hey, Tom's ready to talk. So besides Travis's love of Forky, I mean, but imagine, you know, somebody picks the Back to the Future license, right? Yeah. Like, are they going to do Back to the Future 2 as the license, or are they going to do Back to the Future 3? I mean, it's kind of the only defense is they want to do the most recent IP. Like, they want to do what's new or fresh. That's the, like, I don't know. I think there are certain brands that they don't want people to live in the past. They want you to do what's fresh. So the new Matrix movie would be a good option. Oh, God, no. It's not a good option. No. It's not a good option. That's my point. No. But I'd be curious if Stern went to whoever owns Matrix and be like, we want to make a Matrix spin. They're like, great, Matrix Resurrection just came out. You can do that. Maybe Stern's smart enough to be like, no. Or they'll be like, well, if that's all we have, then it's better than nothing. I mean, the thing is, though, we don't know if this was a J.J.P. or a Disney Pixar decision. No, they said that. They said it was. They did say it? It would have to be Disney-Pixar, right? That would be my assumption. That was 100% a Disney decision. Okay, well, then there you go. So, I mean, we could all sit here all day long and complain about it, but if... Well, that's why we started this podcast.
    39:47
    Tom, if the big D in Mickey Mouse wants it to be Toy Story 4, it's going to be Toy Story 4. Of course. Now, that being said, we do need to get in our van and drive down to headquarters right now and just pick at that place and ask them why they didn't allow JJP to do Toy Story. What's the deal? But the question is, at that point, if you're JJP, what do you do? Do you say, well, if we can only get Toy Story 4, is it worth it to do Toy Story 4, or should we pick another license? Like, should we move past this and look at somebody else? If it was me, personally, I would have passed. I would have been like, okay, if we can't do what this whole entire thing is with Toy Story, then I personally would pass. But that being said, obviously, I can't really say that they're wrong because they came out and said that they sold over $30 million worth of rent. So, I mean, really, they sold pens. They got people like me suckered in to get one. You know what I mean? Just like we were talking about earlier, that they were clear when they came out with the video and all that, and straight down the middle, it came in crystal clear. And I was talking to you guys in real time when we were going through everything. And, Tom, we were talking about this in one of our competitive chats as well. We were like, this game is not geared towards us at all. No. At all. And so what I did know was this was geared. Didn't they say that in the video too? They pretty much did, yeah. And I was like, I looked at Tom Longingly through my Facebook messenger, and I was like, Tom, we're an endangered species now. We've got to be careful.
    41:29
    But the thing was is we knew that they were really marketing this hardcore to families, to kids, and obviously they're going to market it towards families that have money that want to buy this pen and bring it in. And so as soon as my kids saw that it was a toy story, I told you guys. Yeah. At first, I was like, okay, I think I'm going to be out on this. But then I came back to you guys, and I was like, my kids saw it. I'm in trouble. And then when Monica saw it, I'm like, I'm in even more trouble here. I was kind of wondering where she was at because I know she wasn't really into Toy Story 4, but she felt like it represented Toy Story enough, and my kids were just all about it. I was like, okay. After talking with you guys, I talked to Loser Kid. I talked to a few others. I was like, what would you guys do in my position? and like literally 100% across the board, everybody's like, happy wife, happy life. And so, yeah, I mean, that's what won out for me. So it was the tale of two different marketing things. The competitive player in me did not buy this. The father and husband in me did buy this. Yeah. Does that make sense? 100%. Family and friends, people. Yeah. So basically, JJP went the home pin route is what you're telling me. Well, look at it, though. If you actually look at the apron, at least in all the promo videos, there's no bit on the apron that shows pricing cards or a rule card. Like, there's nothing there. I don't know. Now, Travis, you got the game. Did they ship with, like, pricing cards or rule cards? I don't know, Joel. My game didn't even come with a power cord. That was the only thing I could think of. That's the coin box. Yeah, maybe they're a magnet because there's no slots. I'll go look right now. I'll go look. Okay. Travis is going to go look, everybody. I don't think he's doing anything. He's just standing up. He's going to the bathroom. Well, I am curious because, I mean, it's a metal apron, so maybe they're magnets and they're just not putting them in. But I saw that, and I'm like, this game is clearly marketed towards, you know, like rich grandparents that want a game that their grandkids are going to love. Like, I've been telling you, I've been trying to talk my parents into getting a game. And when I threw out the idea of Toy Story, you know, my dad's eyes lit up. Like, that's a game that would be great. Oh, Big Woody. Big Woody has come to this day. What do you got?
    43:51
    All right. So I got into the coin box. Oh, we're doing this in real time. Yeah, there's no power cord in there. I got some rubbers.
    44:01
    It looks like key chain things, plastics, whatever you want to call those. I got an attention. Let's see. Mirror pinballs. Attention. Sorry. Got oil on them. You should probably wipe them off. Yep, yep. So I got that one. And then, yes, here they are right here. So they're like huge magnet things. So they're magnets. Okay, good. Yeah, it says $2 for three play, three balls. Okay. So, I mean, they didn't come with the game. That's cool. Yeah, it was in none of the promo stuff. Yeah. Yeah, so that's in there. And then it came with some extra, I don't know what you call those, those little toys that you can put in the game. It came with the Gabby Cappies, Jesse and the Duke Kaboom. Well, they've shown that online that there's actually a Toy Story 4 cake topper set. You can buy it on Amazon for less than $20, and it's a set of all those figurines. So they obviously include the additional figurines that didn't make it in the game. I'm kind of curious if those are the exact same ones. No, they are. They're the exact same ones. I looked under one of them, and it said Disney LTD. Oh, yeah. So I'm like, I'm pretty sure. Hey, you could take the Forky one out of your game if you wanted to and put in one of the other ones. Yeah, that's actually what Monica tried to do at the very beginning. And then the kids won out. So to go back, what I was saying when you were looking for your bag of goodies was, yeah, my dad guys lit up at the idea of Toy Story, and then, to be honest, though, 12.5, he's like, no. Yeah, I heard you talking about grandpas buying this game, Joel. Yeah, my dad is the grandfather. You made me feel old as soon as you said that. Well, I just – but clearly they're focusing on that market. Is it 12 or 12.5? 12.5. Isn't it? Well, I honestly don't remember how much I paid for it. You just, whatever, put it on the tab.
    45:56
    I thought it was 12. No, it's 12. It's 12. It still sounded like a first world problem, didn't it? It's 12. 12 is limited edition. It'll be 12.5 in six months. Get your games now, everybody. But it's $12 without shipping, right? So, like, once you include shipping and all that. So, $1,200. Anyways, but it's just, like, once my dad heard that, you know, here I am months ago saying, well, even older games, you're looking at $4,000, like a taxi if you want a taxi. So, let's try to get you into a more modern game, maybe in the $5,000 to $6,000 range. Like, no, double that. Boom. Now you're at a Toy Story LE. It's just, I don't know. So here we were, if we will go way back, this is us still talking before the reveal. This is what's in our head. Toy Story 4, I think we're all like, all right, we're going to go into this with an open mind.
    46:45
    You know, but we knew, we knew release time, like the way we all felt, which was kind of hurt when we heard it was only Toy Story 4, we're like, Pinside is going to lose their mind. Yeah, we all predicted that. When they see it's only Toy Story 4, they're going to lose their mind. and we knew like there are people that have been like this is my family's dream theme i am now in graphic like 3d arts because of toy story and my you know like i've based my career off this movie and i feel for those those people that were in on a ce and then they hear nope i mean like turtles was my dream theme and i am so grateful they went retro and nickel you know like old if they would have done modern turtles or like michael bay turtles that would have been a huge kick to the gut. I get that and I feel for those people.
    47:37
    Now with that said, I do think they've done the theme very well. All the characters are there. The voices are there. Unfortunately, it's Toy Story 4. You're missing some of the previous like it's not like we're in Andy's room. It's carnival themed. I don't know. I'd be curious. Well, we'll get into that more.
    48:00
    We're talking pre-reveal. These were our thoughts pre-reveal. Then reveal day rolls around. Reveal day for the three of us was very different. Me, I knew I wasn't buying this game right off the bat. There's a good chance that Zach's going to let me borrow one. So I was just like, all right, it's just a reveal. I'm curious to see what's coming my way or potentially going to be something that I'm going to play. That's all the pressure that I had. Travis has already said he was kind of, he was a little nervous because he knew Monica was in on this. He knew his kids were super excited about this. So I think Travis was like, am I going to have to buy this game? I don't know. I also know, Travis, with the CE hype, you were thinking, do I buy a CE just for the potential value of what it will be down the road? You know, you're kind of half in, you're kind of half out. Tom, you, though, you were on a CE list, and you knew you were going to have to make a decision quickly. Like snap decision. You were right then and there. Yeah. And so, Tom, fill us in on that. Like, what was your thoughts going in? Did you have a price in mind of like, I'm out if it's this price or above? And then what, like, once you saw the reveal, like, where were you at and what? Yeah, I was. Yeah. Yeah. I was expecting it to be around 15K, which it was for the CE. and I had a choice I could have went with the LE as well but I had kind of that first right for CE and I looked at the pictures in the morning I didn't even see the video yet and I just go nah, no So what was the turn off? Was it the theme? Was it the shot layout? What was it? Was it the fork? I mean some of it was the theme when I heard it I knew it was going to be Toy Story 4 but when I saw like the iPad in it and then I saw the jump ramp into a big circle I just kind of got a little turned off by it but yeah I you know a lot of the artwork to me looks kind of wonkish I mean even like the ticket area. It almost looks exactly like Wonka there. Which you own. Right, which I own. Is it the LE or the CE Wonka that you own? I have a standard. Oh, okay. Alright. So, yeah. I don't buy LEs for everything, Joel.
    50:38
    But, I mean, technically the LE is the standard, let's be honest on this game. But, you know, So we were talking, and I was talking about the jump ramp, and I said, wow. I said, I can't imagine this on location because knowing Jersey Jack games that I've played on location, the flippers get really weak. And my fear was not necessarily in the home setting, but my fear was that that jump ramp was going to miss a lot of shots as those flippers got weaker. So where you weren't going to be able to make it. And we saw a video of it where it actually hit the wire form that goes across and then bounced up into the shot. That was Hup Challenge. Hup Challenge streamed that last Sunday. And they do a really, you know, congrats to Jordan Beckett. They do a really good job with videos. Their Instagram's great. They do a lot of, like, pinball-related media. So, you know, I applaud them. but they I think they streamed that game for like seven hours straight on or played it so that game was on location and I mean it was a good example of like what's this game gonna do when it's played a long time and yeah they showed that video I mean it made it but it's like that that's a big that's a big platform and kind of clear wall that they've dedicated to this jump ramp and it barely made it in there um yeah you know some things that myself i i saw looking at the the play field was like the right spinner you know it has this plastic over it so to block air balls and things like that i just the jump ramp thing kind of scares me i don't know sure so you're i remember you were basically like i'm out on the ce if the game blows me away i can always get an le later like that's kind of you're like which is interesting like this is actually a situation where pinball these days it's kind of you know the whole thing of try it before you buy it well luckily this is one of those situations where you can try it before you buy it and with jersey jack only focusing on one game and they're just going to be cranking these out for a while you know your weight on this isn't going to be the same as a modern stern that kind of thing if you wait past the day. So I knew you were out. I was never in.
    53:11
    Travis, though, your initial was like, you're like, nope, I'm out. And so what did you see for you to say I'm out? What was it that turned you off? Where I was like, I don't think I'm going to get this game? Yeah. You know, pretty much it was just seeing what Toy Story 4 looked like overall on the pen.
    53:38
    You know, I grew up on Toy Story, and so for me, I still remember going to the theater, seeing the very first one when I was around 11 years old. I watched that movie all the time as a kid. Then I still remember the sequel coming out, watching that for a little while. And then I still remember the third one coming out and watching that too. Now, the fourth one just did not resonate with me near as much. And there's just certain characters on there that just grate it at me with, you know, Forky being the biggest one. And I've mentioned that already. Like, it just, that character just drives me crazy. And just, you know, from even, and this is spoiler alert territory for everybody, but even going into the movie itself, there just never seemed to be anything iconic about Toy Story 4. Like, it was an excellent movie for what it was, but it just felt so disconnected from what Toy Story 1 through 3 was. Like, that very much felt like a Woody and Buzz story. Like, Woody, Buzz, and Andy. That's what it was all about. And then you get to the fourth one, and it felt like Woody and Buzz were just kind of side characters. And then it became about this fork that was created that thinks it's trash and it's alive. and then that just forced me to have an existential crisis wondering if every single craft that was ever made in this universe is actually alive. And so it just, you know, you go down a rabbit hole then, Joel. But that being said, there's just certain aspects to that movie that it just never drew me in, and I legitimately have only seen it like one and a half times, I think. So I saw it the first time with the kiddos, and then I've accidentally seen it half the time because they happen to have it on Disney+. But that being said, my kids enjoy the movie, especially my twins. And so that's, I mean, overall, that's really what turned me off of the pen in general, is just seeing the theme and just kind of hearing, too, how they were describing how they want everybody to get through the game. And that was my biggest red flag when they were talking about how, you know, I think Pat Lawler said something about that they don't want to make a game to where only three people see the end of it. Like, fair assessment. That's how you want to approach it. But then when they were talking about how they want even the average player to be able to see the entire game and everything, I'm just like, I told you guys immediately, I said, I think I'm going to get through this in less than 10 games. Like, I just knew because there's some sterns I've played to where I've been fortunate enough to see the wizard mode fairly quickly or the end of the game fairly quickly because it's just if you know where the shots are and you're dialed in, you're going to figure it out. So when it came to Toy Story, that was my biggest fear too, that I was wondering, okay, if I'm going to see the entire game very quickly, do I want to spend this much money on something in which I've already experienced everything there is to experience within just a couple of days? So that was a big fear. So the way this played out, and we're going to go more into detail about this reveal because to be honest, I actually think JJP, the way they revealed this, they did a really good job. But so, you know, unfortunately, a few pictures were leaked early on, but we just had a few pictures. Then the actual reveal, it happened at 12 Eastern Standard Time, but it was just the professionally made featurette, which was just showed some basic gameplay. It was, I mean, very markety. It doesn't like, I don't know. It wasn't like GNR. It wasn't like the GNR one. That one just blew everything away, and I think a lot of us were kind of expecting something similar. Yeah. Not exactly the same, not as huge, but something similar. And when we didn't get something similar, that's what kind of made it like, okay, what's going to happen here? And that was one of the weirdest things in that promo was, like, they show the ball, like, moving in the air, and then all of a sudden you don't see it anymore and it's like super jackpot. Where did it go? Yeah. That's what everybody was asking. Did they make the shot?
    57:45
    I think they did, yeah. Well, I think, too, if you guys look closely, I think I might have texted you guys a picture of this, too, the left ramp, or no, the Duke Kaboom ramp. And I was asking people, I'm like, does this look broken? Yeah, because it was like an angle. It's leaning left. Mine doesn't lean left like that. So I'm like, either it was broke and the people filming it didn't catch it, or originally that's what it was supposed to do to help the ball, I don't know, guide a little bit more in. Or maybe mine just doesn't lean left enough and it's not right. So I don't know. I caught that one. I was not in love. Like, if we remember back to the GNR, it's like, okay, you got a hot chick and a mini T-shirt. You were hyped. Like, playing GNR and it's on a turntable. The game's spinning and it's like, oh, she's loving it. But, you know, what blew us away with GNR, we'd never seen the Hot Rails before, and then all of a sudden you're like, holy cow, look at all those video assets. Look at how many sculpts they have. Look at those Hot Rails. Like, there was a lot of wow to it. When I first saw this video, the first thing, I mean, I know a lot of people focused in, but it's like, okay. Joe was like, where's the hot chick playing the game? They had a little, like, child playing, and then you got this super supportive dad, like, fist-pumping, like, yeah, she's doing it. I mean, I'd be fist-pumping if my daughter was excited to play pinball. I do that every time I see Tom hit a jackpot at a tournament. I'm right by him. He's a double fist bump. But what annoyed me more was, like, this marketing firm made a full-scale carousel. Like, it's made out of foam, and it's spinning in the background. I'm thinking to myself, it's like, what a waste of money. Like, JJP, what are you doing? Like, how much money did you pay this marketing firm to make this video? because could you have taken any of that money and put it back in the game? Or like literally anything else with this money? The video, it was okay. It was fine. The problem is that the male actor dad in it just made it so cringe out of nowhere. Like you don't want to do something in a video that makes you an instant meme. And I think that's pretty much what happened because we've all been sending that back and forth to each other. Every time you do something great, we're just like sending that instead of a thumbs up. Once again, though, I mean, it's absurd, but once again, that video, though, I mean, we all know that video isn't made for us. That video is made for, you know, Pixar or Disney to, like, put out to their media, and fine. I mean, whatever. That's not for us, but I will say that's the only thing we had. We had that, and then I think this weekend, Pinball and App Arcade, they had pictures that they revealed right around noon. But I remember from watching the little video, you know, Tom mentioned it. It's like, well, where'd the ball go? And you're looking at some of the pictures. The pictures themselves, the iPad in the upper left really hides a lot. And so I was genuinely confused by the shot layout. I'm like, I don't really understand where some of these shots go. And so on my lunch break, when I went to pick up my daughter from daycare, I actually called Greg Bone. I called Greg Bone on the phone because I knew Greg and Zach had filmed a featurette, which had not been revealed yet. So I called Greg because I wanted somebody who's played the game to explain to me the shots. And, you know, props to Greg. He really enjoys the game, and he really was impressed with the shots. But he had to explain it to me, and to me I was like, I have yet to experience a reveal in a hobby where I've had so many questions from a reveal. like I did not understand I don't know did you guys have similar things when you're looking at the layout like what is actually like did you know the right orbit shot actually was a loop back to the right ramp like did you know that or I don't the iPad covers everything like you don't know where the diverters are going I mean it's like the mini play field and game of thrones yeah I know I personally didn't know until I think I saw a later video and there was Even somebody had texted me and asked me where the jump ramp went to. And so they didn't even realize because they couldn't tell that there was a huge plastic opening there. And finally they realized because they were most worried about that making the jump. And I was telling them, I'm like, this plastic opening is huge. It's massive. Yeah, you can't miss it unless the flipper just becomes very underpowered all of a sudden. So, I mean, yeah, I kind of got that, that basically the problem was is the video that leaked before, and that ended up not being the full, I guess, promo video that they had released, right? So that video that leaked, it just really didn't answer too many questions, and it actually made people have more questions. And that's kind of what we're talking about right now, that there was just certain shots that weren't within that small promo video. But, I mean, it's just one of those things that it's tough. Whenever you're doing any type of video, debuting a pin or revealing it, your choices really are if you're going to run it a minute, how are you going to get all that information within a minute? Because I think even Stern struggles with that. And I know some of their, like, their Mandalorian promo, for instance, when they were pretty much explaining everything out wasn it longer than 90 seconds At least if I remember right I don know It been a little while since I looked at it But I mean and a lot of those promo videos that your only way really is to show each shot happening and then say, hey, here's this type of shot. You know, so for me personally, I don't know. If I was showing a promo video for a game or a pinball machine, I don't know necessarily if I'd focus on every single shot. I might focus on the very important shots that kind of like the jump ramp or, you know, a spinner or something like that, because it's kind of one of those things you want a trailer or promo video to be just that. You don't want it necessarily to reveal everything, but you also don't want to leave questions that frustrate people either. Like, you want to be pretty clear that the questions that you leave your potential consumer having is questions in which they want to explore further and find out more information about the product and not be befuddled by a certain aspect of it. That's the main problem with it. Let me ask you this, Travis. So, and I haven't asked you this, is that Kaboom ramp, the jump ramp, is that, like, super easy to hit? Yes. because it's basically the gimmick of the game, right? Yeah. I mean, to be flat out honest with you, every shot in this game is the easy shot to hit. Like there's nothing in here that's difficult. I mean, you look at the ramps, they're wide open, you know, and, yeah, the game shoots great. Don't get me wrong. It shoots great. But there's a reason why it shoots great, too, because the shots are all wide open. Yeah. Is this game easier than Elvira?
    64:46
    This game is the easiest modern game I've played personally. In my opinion. Yeah. There's a lot of people, like even Jeff Siola gives Elvira House of Horrors a hard time because it makes you feel amazing because you can hit shots left and right. But you're saying easiest modern. Okay. In my opinion, for me, it is. Somebody might have a different opinion of that. But the reality is they obviously set out, based on their promo and everything, that they set out to have this be very accessible for your average player or your casual player. And this design achieves that. So that's the next thing I want to get into is that problem. Right, yeah. But so what we – all we had was pictures. But one other thing we did have was we had a picture of the rules. Like it's their JJP map of the rules. Now, I looked at that and I was like, looks like there's a lot of stuff. But, you know, when it just says a multiball, we don't know if that's just super easy. Like, I don't know, did that rule sheet – because, once again, this is noon, and there are people like Tom that have literally, like, they have to have an answer within 30 minutes, are you in or you're out? And that's all we have is a few pictures, a short one-minute video. You know, Tom had already decided he's out. But I just feel like if you're right on that edge, that initial release at noon didn't give me enough, in my mind, enough meat to feel like I could make a decision. Did either of you guys react to that rule chart in a positive or negative way? When I looked at it initially, I was like, wow, there's three loops for this and, like, three ramps for that. It seemed pretty basic to me compared to some of the other games like Wonka or Hobbit.
    66:27
    Yeah, like road trip multi-ball. It's drop target to light all locks, left lock up, repeat twice. So it's like, oh, to get to that, does that mean it's, like, six shots? That's it? I mean, four shots. That would be a Travis question. So, Travis, but when you looked at the rule, did you look at that and go, oh, or like positive or negative when you looked at that rule? Are you talking about when I saw the map? Yeah, the map of the rules, yep. I was like, wow, there's really not too much in this, it seems like. I mean, and that's not to say that it's coded bad or anything like that. It's just obviously not as deep as everything else. But that harkens back to what we were talking about with GNR, that there seemed like there was a bunch of stuff put into that game, but only one specific path to go to to really get big scores. So, you know, I understood what they were trying to do here by drawing it back a little bit, not to overwhelm people too much. And I got, you know, the gist that, obviously, based off all their promos again, that they were going very much after casuals and new type players and even kids, too.
    67:38
    That's what I'm saying. So based on the rule chart and just the layout alone, you could already tell. I told Tom this wasn't a pin for me. I told him that. I was just like, and I told you guys this, too. I bought this knowing that I was going to chew through this game within 10 games. I just knew looking at this that you could just tell because my whole thing is, And, again, this isn't saying, oh, this rule set's horrible or anything like that. This is their decision that they made. And so this isn't geared toward high-end tournaments. It's not geared towards players that enjoy wizard mode hunting on a regular basis. This is very much geared towards the players that aren't able to achieve that on not even a consistent basis but hardly any basis at all. I mean, hell, we've read different posts of people just now beating Soul Gym for the first time. Oh, wow. Yeah. And they've had it for nearly a year. So, I mean, sometimes there's players out there that just they're not capable of getting far in the game, which is fine. Everybody has a different skill set. Talking about my people.
    68:45
    But this rule set, depending on how you are, this rule set may speak to you because you can get through a lot of things very quickly. I mean, just like you talked about. So there's seven scenes in it, right? You got your road trip multiball, your buzz quick multiball, your crappy character rescue, your carnival multiball. Forky rescue, yeah. Yeah, that a-hole right there. Carnival multiball, super spinners, Duke Kaboom Jump, and Bo Peep loops, right? Yeah. And so what was interesting to me when I saw this is that, and I think I told you this, Tom, that a lot of these modes don't seem like they are like the main game modes in a game. They almost seem like a couple of them are like your side quests that you have, that you see on different games. You know, like Iron Maiden, one of the things is getting loops and building up like your pops and getting super, you know what I mean? Or the power jackpots and all that. that's the way this kind of came off except your stuff that is normally side quest and other games happen to be your main scenes your main modes in this game so that's kind of what i was a little bit concerned about but i will say the one thing that this that this rule set doesn't show on this image is that the carnival modes are actually much more interesting than your scenes by far They're so much more interesting. And that's why it's almost like this chart just became inverted. Because I feel like the Duke Kaboom jump, it just kind of happens. I won't say on its own because it's linked up to the take a chance will or whatever that mystery will is, right? The Bo Peep loops, they do kind of happen on their own because you've got to do them anyways. And they almost seem like a side thing. The Forky Rescue, the only way you're getting to that is by hitting the side targets, those stand-up targets a lot. and then activating it through a ramp, then a jump ramp, then into the scoop, right? It's a combo, yeah. Right, exactly. And then like your road trip multiball, that's the bozo multiball on here. Yeah, it's considered one of the main scenes. So it's almost like with your carnival modes, the way that you get into those, you have to collect tickets, right? So so many tickets allows you to start a carnival mode, which in case has so many shots depending on what level or what tier of difficulty that carnival mode is, right? And then that'll feed into your carnival multiball power-ups and all this and that. So it does kind of come together, but I find myself, after playing this game a lot of times in the past week, that I'm actually more drawn to the carnival modes than I am the main theme. And is there any, it seems like you, like, how many carnival modes do you have to do? Just one to count for the one of seven things? No, so the carnival modes don't count towards your seven scenes. No, so what the carnival modes do, if you complete it, right, and you collect a character associated with that particular mode, you end up getting a power-up for carnival multiball. And that's the only way you light your locks, too, is getting through your carnival modes. And so that ends up being a big part of the game. I mean, I've gotten scores just above 20, 25 million, ignoring everything in the game except for just doing the carnival modes because then everything else kind of happens along with it. Like you have to hit spinners anyways. You have to hit links anyways. Is that right?
    72:15
    No, I think there's... Yeah, I think there is 12. I think you're right. But the weird part about it is it doesn't seem like that there's any particular character associated with the certain modes when it comes to the carnival stuff. And game to game, one that is like a tier three, most difficult, you have to have the most tickets to get. It's something like 350, 400, or maybe it's 400, 500, somewhere around there, could be a tier one mode your next game. So there's no rhyme or reason. Yeah, exactly. Well, that's really nice for a novice, though, because then you have a chance to explore more modes. Right. But the problem is, is that all that it does is it just tones down the amount of shots that you have, right? So maybe the shots might go up. shots might go down, but then at the same time, the same character isn't associated with it. So I don't know if this is a bug in it or whatever. I had one time where three straight carnival modes I did had the same character collected, and I don't know if that was supposed to happen or what happened with that. But yeah, it doesn't seem like it has any rhyme or reason in terms of something being associated with those modes. so you might rescue Woody on Jetstream or you might rescue Woody with Ferris Wheel or Squirrel Derby or something like that so it's seen as random at this point well let's dive in more but I am curious you know it's still considered early code even though the game is fleshed out but that's a really good point so just to finish with the reveal you know we've we had the leaks we had our previous knowledge it's 12 o'clock They released this. Then a few hours later, Zach and Greg was straight down the middle. Their little featurette comes out. And it's 20-plus minutes, I think. And it was great. I mean, I really enjoyed it. It's really cool to see them explain a lot more. And that's when they explained a few things. They explained, one, you know, this was Disney. Disney wanted Toy Story 4. Two, you know, we kind of talked about this. Like, why is a little girl's head, Gabby Gabby, the bash toy, you know, like Disney? Disney said, they asked, what character do you have that you'd be okay with us hitting with a ball? And they apparently immediately were like Gabby Gabby. And I'm 1,000% okay with that mech. Okay. That is probably my most favorite mech in all of pinball because I swear to God, I've picked up so many dolls in the past two years due to my twin daughters just leaving them laying around. So I don't mind just jamming a ball right into Gabby Gabby's face. I don't mind it at all. So that's good. That's very therapeutic, Joel. Yeah. Good. I'm not there yet with my daughter, but I'll keep that in mind. But I know the featurette to me, I learned a lot from that. But one, I mean, Craig and Zach actually had really good footage of the shots and a little bit of gameplay. So things made sense. You know, that's the first time you actually really see the Duke Caboom ball land and you get to see the platform. And it's like, okay, now I have a better visual understanding of this machine. But the real key was Pat Lawler. Pat Lawler actually talking about the game. And when he said the words, and we talked about this earlier, where, you know, if we're going to spend all this time writing code that only three people in the world are going to see, that's a waste of time. And I remember hearing that. I'm like, okay, so this game is easier. And then they went further and said, this wizard mode is something that we feel most people should be able to achieve. But the true players, if you go through the whole game again, then you're going to get to the second wizard mode. that's the hard part. So I hear that and I'm like, well, I'm glad they're thinking of the better players, but it sounds like to get there it's just a straight-up rinse and repeat. I mean, I don't know. Travis, now that you've owned it, is it like, okay, I can blow through the first wizard mode just quick and then at least the second phase is harder, or does it feel like straight chopping wood again, like straight-up rinse repeat to do it again? So what I discovered early on was that really the only two scenes in the whole entire game that feel like you're absolutely chopping wood is the a-hole rescue scene. Forky rescue. Excuse me? Forky rescue. He just really hates this fork. Yep. Fine. Forky rescue. Tom perks up with a-hole rescue.
    76:42
    And the Bo Peep super loops. So with Bo Peep, the only way that you can finish it quickly is if you get three consecutive interloop shots, right? So if you don't do that, I think you need like 12 or 15 or something like that. And I think you might even have to use the will to light the super loops early on, I think. I forget exactly. I'm drawing a blank. But either way. So real quick, super loops. This is an upper flipper shot. It's an interloop. And if you think, you know, like Turtles has that, Godzilla has that, Iron Maiden has that. Do you, just real quick, would you compare the feel of this shot to another? Like, is it a really good upper looper, easy to hit? Or, I don't know, how would you describe that shot?
    77:28
    Did his headphones just die? No, sorry, I had to grab a beer real quick. So I start talking, and you're like, oh, here's the time for me to get up. I still have my headphones on. I usually talk longer and talk. I was asking a question. I just have to finish before I can get my ass back from the fridge.
    77:43
    All right, I'm back. Upper looper shot. How did it feel? I mean, it felt pretty good, to be honest with you. I was kind of worried about how that flipper would work because it's so small. Yeah, the big flipper, yeah. But it makes sense because when you see the play field in person, you realize why it can't have a big flipper there. Okay. So it's actually, I mean, there's no other shots? Yes, because there's no other shots.
    78:08
    That's right, because there's no other shots. That's a good one. And true. So anyways, so Tom freaking just broke me right there. So you can hit the shots over and over and over again. Depending on how your pin's set up, you might be able to get three in a row. I think the most I've done is four or five, and I've heard from other people playing this game on location that sometimes the ball feed isn't as good there. So they have a hard time with the loops from time to time.
    78:38
    Okay. Okay, well, so we're talking about the grind. So you get through the first wizard mode. How different, as a good player, you know, you're the good player. The second phase is designed for you. How different is the second time through? Is it the same? Is it harder? I mean. All right. So I guess we're going to enter spoiler territory here. So I guess to put this in perspective, one of the first times I absolutely blow up the game, I think I had like $74 million or something like that. And I ended up plunging and draining two balls in that too, because the game was just taking so damn long. So the problem is, is that even on default, you can blow through it pretty quickly if you know where the shots are and you find the shots, right? But once you get to the second phase, it's kind of just the same thing, just prolonged a little bit more. So just more shots. Just more of doing the same thing, just more of it is what it becomes. So, you know, without giving away too much, because I think we've just flat out spoiled the wizard mode, I know that I was expecting something super unique. I don't know about Tom. Were you expecting something super unique the way that they were describing the wizard mode? Yeah. I mean, from the video, Pat Lawler said, like, oh, it's, like, awesome and never done before in pinball. Yeah. And so I played it, and immediately I was like, huh, this is just like this mode. And I don't want to say it because I don't want to spoil anybody, but I think you guys know what I'm talking about because I think I told you guys what it was reminding me of. No, I didn't. Did I not tell you? No. Can you edit this part out so I don't? Yeah, I'll bleep it. Okay. So it reminded me of.
    80:30
    That's pretty much what this wizard mode is. And we're back. All right. So what he described was a similar mode in a recent modern game. Yeah. Right. So it's not – I was just playing, and I was like, okay, it's kind of like this. Because I was expecting just something totally different, and I was just thinking to myself while I was playing it, I'm like, this is just really familiar to me. So that being said, it's still fun to play once you get there. Sure. And, yes, the different pathways when you're playing Woody or Buzz, They have different stages to them, like completely different. But it's still easy to get through. It's not – the wizard mode itself is not difficult. You are meant to beat this wizard mode to get the fireworks. So to what you said, so you ended up – you got this pin. I remember you texted the group. You said you got to the first wizard mode on your fourth game. You got to the first wizard mode on your fourth game, and then you completed the second wizard mode, the one that was designed for the high-end players. You completed that on your seventh game. Yeah, and we nearly got to it three times in the same game. So you, within less than ten games, had actually already seen everything in the game, everything in the game within ten minutes. Yeah, I'm pretty sure. I mean, I've seen all the multiballs. I've seen all the carnival modes. I've done the take a chance multiball, which is when you collect all the wheel awards. I think I got that two or three times in that game. I mean, that's just what happens when you hit the shot stroll and the shots are wide open. Like, I think I'm not going to be the last one that's going to be saying this. If you get an above average player on this pin, they're going to chew it up a lot. I mean, they just are. Yeah, that's why I'm super curious because, I mean, you, like, I've owned Turtles. And I have gotten so, like, I am so far from getting Cowabunga. Like, Cowabunga is something that seems almost unreachable to me, and yet you've done it. Like, you've done it multiple times. I know there are plenty of other wizard modes in, you know, modern sterns that you've gotten to. I mean, Tom is the same thing. You guys are top 25 players in the world, and I get that. I know, and they said that in this featurette where Zach and Greg, like, it's very clear that this game was not designed for you. at all. So that's why I'm super curious of like, is it even designed for me? Is it designed for me and my skill level? Are you wanting to know if you'll get to the wizard mode, Joel? Do you think I will be able to get to the second wizard mode and beat it? No.
    83:12
    Joel's got this covered. The second wizard mode. When you say second wizard mode, you're meaning the second time around the game? Yeah, that's what they're saying. You have to do one whole, what is it? It's like you complete it all and you get what, like Woody's side, and then you have to complete it all again and you get Buzz's side or something like that. I would very much say going through it a second time is probably – it's easier to go through this twice than it is to get to Run to the Hills on Iron Maiden. I've never had – that's – like the best that I've gotten to – so when I had Stranger Things, there was a time where I did 11 modes. I got to one, I finished one mini wizard mode. So all I had was one mode to go. And then I had to do one Demogorgon and then I would have been like, got to the final. That's the furthest I've ever gotten in a game. Yeah. I would say with this, it's not, you're going to probably find more people getting through this twice in the same game compared to anybody getting to a stern wizard mode. It just, because basically you're just playing the same seven scenes again. Okay. Yeah. And legitimately, three of them are multiballs. One of them is hitting a jump ramp. Another one is just hitting the woody spinner into the saucer and then just looping and just rinse and repeat. Well, I'll let this. Do you think I'll get to the first wizard mode the very first night I stream it? No.
    84:34
    The first wizard mode is made for novice players. Joel, we can't work miracles, okay? Jersey Jack can't even do that. But I'll say this. Just plunge the ball into the wizard mode. It just makes me sad how little you waited on that. Do you think I'll – no. Like just immediate – no. Well, here's why. I'll tell you why. And here's what I would make a suggestion to update the code on with this to make a subtle tweak to it. Because this one's going to drive you crazy, all right? So the Forky Rescue one – and, yes, I'll go ahead and call it Forky Rescue. Well done. Basically, if you mess this up and you don't rescue him, then you've got to start it all back over again. You've got to hit the targets again. It's a combo. So I personally think in the long run that it would be better for this mode to revert back to just keeping a ramp lit as soon as you have it lit. So even if you mess up, let people just do the ramp again and then do the jump ramp and then do the scoop instead of having to do the targets because it is a chore just to have to get all your forky targets and then hit a ramp and then, you know, do the combo. I would rather just see that combo stay consistently lit for people because that probably, well, that's going to be the one big scene because you have to complete that scene. That's the only one out of the seven scenes that you absolutely have to do and finish. Everything else you can qualify, but you don't necessarily have to finish it. So, for instance, like – So it's left ramp, jump ramp, and then hit the scoop.
    86:13
    Right. Okay. Yep. And then the second time it's right ramp, left ramp, jump ramp, scoop. So really it's just – But you've got to complete four key targets first, though, to light rescue. So you hit your five targets, and then you hit the left ramp to start it. So really the only shot you're going to possibly miss is – well, you either miss the jump ramp or you miss the scoop, right? I mean, so which of those two is the harder shot, or you're saying they're all easy? I mean, if you're going to go by the hardest shot, it would be the scoop. But the scoop is very accessible. It's not like one of those scary-ass scoops I've been scared of in the past. Is it timed? Like, is it a hurry-up? It is once you finish your jump ramp. Okay. So, I mean, well, I mean, I guess technically you could say everything's timed. Once you queue up the jump ramp, if you miss it, there's been a couple times I've recovered really quick and then still got it off before it went down. But when it comes to Forky, I think it's if you hit any other switch, it'll go off. Because I think there's been a couple times I bricked it, came back to a flipper, and then got it in there before the timer went off. So I'm sure there's, like, some timing mechanism or switch mechanism. But you don't have to, like, hit the targets and then, like, immediately hit the left ramp. No, it'll light rescue on the ramp. It'll qualify. Right, and that's what I'm saying that I wish would just stay on. And if you miss it, just let rescue stay on and then go back. Because I got a feeling if you want this to be very accessible to casuals, I think that's going to be the one thing that's really going to trip people up. I mean, probably even the Bo Peep. That and the Bo Peep super loops. I think those two things, those stand out the most compared to the other scenes that are very wood choppy. Because even the super loops, you've still got to hit 15 times. So, Travis, should those five four-key targets, should those have been drop targets in your mind? A thousand percent. Oh, yeah. I hate those stand-up targets. Do you think there's a chance that they were and they pulled them out?
    88:13
    I mean, I'm sure at one point or another it was thought of to have it. But then again, I mean, how many times has Pat Lawler put drop targets in his game? We have to go to our historian, Tom, on that.
    88:27
    There wasn't any in Wonka, was there? like a bank of drop targets so there is a drop target in the game though but I'm just saying like it's lately I mean that's not what Lawler's been about I mean even on Dialed In I'm trying to think of a game where he uses drop target to be honest but World Wind had the three I don't know I think everybody like I love drop target that's one thing I know upgrading from the Deadpool Pro to Premium, I freaking love the drop targets. I love them. They're more visual. They're more satisfying to hit. I'm very disappointed that there's not drop targets in there because, honestly, there is several different instances that you have to hit the targets, the forky targets at the side, and it's not a very satisfying shot. It's probably the least satisfying shot in the entire game. Aren't, in Star Wars, the force targets on the left, aren't those drops? Yep. And that's five. So that would be five drop targets on the side of the game. But that's Steve Ritchie.
    89:33
    Yeah, king of flow, and he wants the ball to slow down with drops, apparently. There you go. Yeah. So, okay, so once again, so the reveal comes out, the featurette comes out. To me, the featurette, what it provided me was it provided me, I finally was able to see the shots, but I was basically told in a polite manner, Like, this is going to be an easier game, which you guys are saying you had already figured out just by the pictures and what you'd seen. So after you guys saw the featurette, did your opinions of the game change? And then, Travis, do you know whether or not – were you already in on buying one? So basically Travis had to buy one because his kids wanted it, his wife wanted it. But do you guys remember – Yeah, it didn't matter. Zach and Greg could have shown, like, anything. They could have just shown a pile of dirty socks and you would have been forced to get it. Yeah, I mean, that being said, their video that they did, I thought that was really great. Oh, it was great, yeah. I wish everybody out there would do something similar to that for their game reveal because regardless of what's said, I love hearing from the designer their point of view. I love hearing from the coder or the software person their point of view. I would love to hear from the artists. I mean, that's why I love the making of stuff that Stern puts out. They put it out like six months late. Yeah, I know. I wish stuff like that would be out at the very beginning. Like I want to hear from the designer what they were thinking when they put into this. Like that, for me personally, that might sway me in terms of what I would like to buy. Yeah. I mean, it really would, outside of theme and everything else, if I can hear what somebody's thinking of it. Because it's the same way. I'm that way with movies. If I'm interested in a certain movie, I might look at some reviews, but I might even look at an interview with the director or the writer or the producer to see what they have to say about this project to see if I'd be more interested in it. So, yeah, I mean, I'm glad the video was done. But, yeah, it's just one of those things that we were pretty much already locked into it. But I will say the GNR video was one of those that I really enjoyed, the featurette on that. And I told Monica, I'm like, you could tell that these people are passionate about what they're doing. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And then Eric. And, I mean, regardless of the way I felt about the game, it's like I still respected that they were all so passionate about it. I mean, and I'm glad to see people working in pinball that are passionate about stuff. Tom, do you have any feelings? like the once you saw that featurette did it did it i mean you got your mind well that's the thing you knew you're out you knew you're out on a c did you see it and go oh maybe i should have given it tom did you like slam your headphones down just go oh shit no not at all you were in like support you felt better about your decision yeah i actually did oh no what made you feel better about your decision. I don't know. I want to know. Don't put words in my mouth. No, I mean, I think, I know for the two of you. Did you look at that? You heard Ken Cromwell talking, you're like, I made the best decision ever. That's not, that's not what I'm saying. I just, I know you guys are such high players that the idea of owning a game. We're getting stoned.
    92:46
    No, no, high, whatever. Hey Travis, let's play it up. You guys are such highly ranked players and your skill set is. Only if I'm nearly in dead last with the tournament, Tom.
    92:58
    Give me a beer right now. I know the biggest fear that you guys could have in buying a new pen is it being too easy because it just gets super boring, and that's why. Joel, the thing about it is that you can have different settings, though. You can change the difficulty of a game. It's just the key is trying, and this is the balance I'm trying to find right now at Toy Story, is try not to make it too grindy to where certain things are enjoyable because other shots, like, for instance, if you're hitting a left ramp, you may not mind hitting that seven times compared to hitting a loop five times or compared to hitting a captive ball five times. You know, it's just finding the balance. And sometimes the software comes out to where the coder or whoever worked on it understands that balance from the very beginning, and they nail it. You know, and then other times something seems way off balance to where you realize you can't do certain things on the game. So, I mean, it's not so much about being too good for a machine because everybody has their different skill sets and their different ways that they can play, like being highly accurate. I mean, hell, there's a video out there right now of Walt Wood hitting the Kaboom ramp, what, like 1,000 times?
    94:08
    Yeah, like 1,000 times in a row. And so there's different players that just they play on such a high level. I mean, I guarantee there's players out there that don't play tournaments at all that probably play at a high level. Yeah. You know, and so, again, I think that JJP knew exactly who they were marketing this game to. They were very precise on their message across the board. Like Ken Cromwell was all about that Joe Katz was all about that Pat Lawler was all about that So they very much they all knew what the message was and what this game was and they were very clear about that And after playing it, I'm like, yeah, that's exactly what it is. What they say this game is, it pretty much is hitting the nail on the head. That's what it is. Nice. So, yeah, that's what, okay, so the feature, it was well done. But then we fast forward a few more hours, and this is what surprised me, is JJP released a recorded gameplay video. Like this is a streaming setup, top-down view, like actual video of the gameplay. So instead of having to wait for a stream, who's going to stream this? How can we actually see it played? I want to see the flow. No, they had a recorded finalized version. Like it was great. I was super pumped to see that. I don't know. Either of you. Like you guys saw it. Ambiguity approved. Great. So what were your thoughts after seeing the actual gameplay? Tom, I'll let you go first.
    95:34
    You're talking about the Joe Cats voiceover, actual, like, did it shoot better than you thought it was? I hope so, Chad. Yeah. No, Tom and I learned that. And then I got a house ball. Yeah, a house ball from last. Joe Cats set the record for the longest house ball ever in recorded history. It was amazing. uh no i god i i've only watched the video the the one time and uh i i don't know it was fine i i didn't have an issue with it you were just so far out on this game tom that you were like okay i'm just gonna watch everything once and i'm good pretty much yeah this is like the exact opposite of rush i swear to god he he got a comfy and he sat down in his basement he watched the Rush stuff, like 24 hours straight. If you guys don't remember, I had, that's when I had COVID.
    96:28
    Yeah. Oh, I remember because you were sending me the same link like five times the same day. Like, look at this. Look how awesome this is.
    96:37
    But, I mean, clearly you cared about it. Like, you are all, you could not have been more in on Rush. So it makes sense. But you had already made the decision. You're out on Wonka. Let's wait and see how it plays. I get it. No pressure. Just wait and see how it plays. Toy story. Yeah, Tom had already, or sorry, Travis had already sent his, you know, his routing info, knew he had to buy this game, and I think was thinking like, crap, am I going to hate this game? So when you looked at the gameplay video, Travis, what popped into your head?
    97:08
    Yeah, I was just like, okay, we're going to beat this game in like five tries. It's just, I mean, again, this could be to the detriment or to the celebration of the game, The shots are just so wide open that players are going to hit them. And the problem is, is that if you're playing a game of pinball, the inevitable is that the ball will drain and that the pin will fight back.
    97:36
    This pin does not give you any fight at all out of the box. I mean, the slings are like limp noodles. The ball doesn't hardly go anywhere. I mean, for me, the flippers were, the power's just fine at home. Like, I haven't noticed. That's the one great thing about this pen at home. The flippers aren't mush at all. Like, they're great. Now, I did play the game on location, and I noticed immediately that the flippers just felt completely different.
    98:04
    Oh, Tom. So that was my big thing. Oh, no. No, Tom's not typing. Tom's just Tom. But, no, I felt like that the shots are just wide open. That's the biggest thing about it.
    98:18
    Yeah, so, okay. Yeah, that's what I remember watching the stream, the video of it, and it was like 11 minutes, and it just seemed like Joe Katz was just kind of cruising through the game. And I was thinking, like, are we about to see the wizard mode? I remember, you know, as our mentality of the game is changing as the day is going on, it's like this is actually a big, like an easy game, like an easier game. And then to actually see Joe Katz, like, I did this, I did this, I did this. And then it was just like, he's on ball three. He already got an extra ball. I feel like that kickback has gone off like eight times. It's just like, is he going to blow through this game? On stream right here. Right. Well, that's the other thing, too, that I didn't get a chance to mention. So they have an unlimited kickback as one of the awards on the wheel. No way. Way. Oh, yeah. In this game, too, legitimately 80% of your drains will go on which side, do you think, Joel? Left. The left side. That is correct. So you put unlimited kickback on, oh, buddy, off to the races you go. Your ball is never draining. I mean, I swear, I looked at my audits, and I am 9-1 in terms of balls draining on the left compared to the right-hand side. I actually, this is one of the first games ever in which I guarantee you I drain more down the middle. than I do on an outlaying because still out of the pops, it does sometimes come straight down the middle out of there. So, I mean, that unlimited kickback, it is so damn strong. And I think that in itself is what's the game breaker if you're doing this in a tournament because if you get unlimited kickback and you're going through all your multiballs and you're progressing. Yeah, they have to turn that off. There has to be a tournament mode or competitive mode. There probably is. Have you put the game in tournament mode yet? Yep.
    100:08
    Stay going. so yeah i i mean i've tried everything i i've taken post out i've i've taken rubbers off post out i've i've turned it on extra hard which really didn't do anything except just prolong the game because everything's just more shots more shots yeah yeah i mean it just becomes ultra chopping wood so i think there's got to be some balance there in terms of maybe toning down bow peep a little bit, maybe... I don't know. I mean,
    100:44
    getting to the wizard mode, it's just not difficult at all, and that's what they intended on happening. Because it's like, how do you make Buzz Quick Multiball more difficult to get to? Because all it becomes is putting it in that saucer by the pops over and over and over again. So then you're just shooting pops and waiting for a bounce into that saucer. So you can't hit that saucer directly. It's purely a luck based... I would say it's, for the most part, it's luck-based. I mean, you can kind of plan on it if you use your left flipper to shoot up there because you can still graze it off a pop, and it sometimes will just go in pretty quick. I've done that a couple of times. But, yeah, overall, it's just sending into the pops and hoping it goes in there. On a side note, I have become more and more of a fan of the less pops in a game, the better, personally. Like, I just – Oh, yeah, 100%. And this has four – It's like my, yeah, I don't, the only time I like a pop more than anything, if it's close to the flipper. Like, I enjoyed it on Rick and Morty. I enjoyed it on Godzilla. TNA. Yeah, everything like that. I mean, to me, if you make use of a pop, it's just different than just placing it somewhere in the upper third of the play field and just, I mean, if you bring the pops down like Aerosmith or Iron Maiden and you got to shoot through them, I like that too. Rush. They're just, yeah, Rush. Yeah, you're right. Rush does the same thing. So, okay, so before we have you, because Travis, I kind of want to hear more about the layout and all that. But so just to wrap up the actual reveal day, once again, I personally do think J.J.P., there's a few things I would have done slightly different, but I'm nitpicking. Like I just, J.J.P. really does an extremely good job.
    102:28
    What was that, Tom? What? He's like, I'm going to nitpick. And I'm like, wow. I'm giving him a hard time. Milk toast Joel coming in with a nitpick.
    102:42
    Salty Joel. No, what I'm saying is the JJP, their reveal, they did an amazing job with the GNR reveal. And then this one, they just did such a great job. You know, they kind of trickled it out throughout the day. I wish it kind of would have been all at once, especially if I was in that position of having to decide whether or not I'm in or out on the game but to give us all of that in one day was incredible, like it was so good, you know, Stern they do their teaser and then you get a short little featurette and you get some pictures and they have to wait a week for a stream and sometimes the stream doesn't communicate things very well and you gotta wait for the topper the making of the video is six months later, like this was awesome I will say this, that them showing gameplay in a controlled manner, that's what I much prefer, too. I think you get a better idea of how a game is going to be based off that more than what any reveal stream would do. A hundred percent. Just because of reveal stream, it's not that they're necessarily bad. It's just it's chaotic because it's live. You're counting on somebody showing off the shots and that if they start breaking shots early on. Right. Then everybody's kind of like, OK, what's what's going on here? You know, what's happening. And so a lot of times that can turn the tide on what people think about a pin, just simply seeing how it shoots from the very beginning. And sometimes maybe a game's not set up properly, or maybe it's set up too hard, or maybe it just has a player on there that this is their first time playing it. So, you know, that's why I liked how they did, how J.J.P. did their game reveal. A hundred percent. That's my absolute take. My main takeaway is, like, this is awesome. This is how every game should be. You know, just to me, like the next turn game, why not? Like Ray Day streams. Why not have him hop on this game and do a 10-minute tutorial just like Joe Katz does, hit the shots, and then if you guys want to get Jack Danger involved a week later and do a live stream or two days later, go for it. There's no harm in that. But, like, getting that actual gameplay footage in a controlled manner was incredible. Like, I wish or would hope that would become a standard thing on reveal day. but that's my opinion. Tom, I know you've been quiet I know you haven't touched the game. Overall thoughts on the actual day or thoughts on your rollercoaster that you went on or you got off the ride really early. It was just another day Joel. So I know you haven't played one yet. I haven't played one yet. I don't know. I think I'm going to stream one. I don't have any idea when I'm going to get one. But Travis, you've played the heck out of one. So I'm going to sit back. I'm going to shut up. You know, we're going to kind of wrap this up here, but before we do that, go ahead, Travis, go for it, man. I mean, what, what were your, you know, how does it feel? All that? I mean, you've kind of already said something, but this is Travis talks, Travis talks more. Here we go.
    105:39
    Travis talks. Tom feel free to interrupt him whenever he wants. He keeps talking a lot. Charlotte? Thank you, Tom. And by the way, my headphones are about to go out, so I'm just letting you know. In case I didn't hear you guys. Yeah. Well, what all are you wanting to know? Well, you talk about the shots. I mean, you said they're all open. Was there any shot that surprised you? What about the iPad? Do you like the iPad? That kind of stuff. Well, you know, the iPad's interesting because, obviously, Lawler, he's gone through, like, this phase. Like, didn't he have a phone on dialed in? And then he had, like, the mini TV WonkaVision, Willy Wonka, and now he has a full iPad. And I'm just waiting for his next game to have, like, a 75-inch projection screen on the whole thing. I can't wait for that. An iMac. Yeah, it's going to be a Mac studio. I can't wait. The game's just going to play itself. In Eric's two games, Eric, his Minyer, his two games, and he used the secondary monitor in Pirates to be a compass to kind of direct you towards what shot you need to hit. And then the secondary monitor at GNR is even more. It's very communicating what to do at any time. So do you feel – I don't know. I feel Eric uses the monitors in a very, like, useful way. I don't know. What's the iPad do? Is it just – is it helpful or what? Well, like, the iPad I can check my email on. I can text message people. I check Discord. Well, you can play pinball on it. There's a virtual pinball mode. Yeah. So, I mean, so when you first get the game, you look at it, you're just like, holy shit, this thing's huge. You know, it does. It takes up a huge part of the real estate. But as you play it, right, exactly. As you play it more and more, you're just like, okay, this makes sense, what they have. I much prefer the iPad version of this than the little iPod monitor in the back, like on GNR. Oh, okay. So I much prefer that. It's one of those things where you can tell what's going on a lot easier because your eyes, it's just easier to read that real quick while the chaos is going on. Or if you get trapped up real quick, you know what to look at.
    107:55
    You know, it's very good about that. Now, in terms of the Tiki multiball, yeah, it's fun playing that little Tiki Party EM game up top. But then once you get into the multiball, I can't handle the game sound for that mode. I mean, it's like up there with Meteor for me in terms of being that bad. I don't know what happened with it because it almost sounds like a casino with, like, the most terrible tiki band playing in the background. I have no idea how to describe this. I wish I could, but you guys will just have to play it for yourself. but it just felt so disjointed from everything else in terms of how the sound and the call-outs go and everything. But, no, the iPad thing, it makes sense for, I guess, seeing what happens in the gameplay. But I don't know. Maybe I haven't watched Toy Story 4 enough. I don't know if it has anything to do with the actual theme of Toy Story 4. I mean, it kind of seems, if you look at it from a theme standpoint, it kind of seems like just out in left field for it to be there. all of a sudden, but maybe there was an iPad or something in Toy Story 4. I don't remember. You've only seen it one and a half times. I think it's just something to draw people in.
    109:14
    What's going to draw people in more, putting an iPad on a screen or a Mechagodzilla turntable? I don't know. Whoa. I don't know. You're not cheated, Elwin. No, if the market is children and novice, I would assume they relate to an iPad a whole lot more than they relate to a turntable. Did you feel that earthquake, Tom? Did you feel that? He's never going on your show ever again, Joel. I, for the record, cannot wait to actually own a Godzilla premium. So, no. All right. So, Travis, what – Keith, for the record, Keith, only Tom and I own a Godzilla. That is correct. I can't – I'm waiting on one. I know. I'm waiting on one. But – so, Travis, what about this? There are people – like I said, Hup Challenge streamed it for like seven hours. Yeah. What are – from – Good idea. Let's pivot real quick. No, I – Let's not piss off Keith anymore. I'm moving the conversation forward, all right? All right. Let's go. I know Tom's got a bedtime, and we need to respect it. So what is something that, being that you own the game, what is something that a lot of people aren't going to get or see or feel from the videos that are out there right now?
    110:32
    That they're not going to see? Well, the jump ramp is fun to hit. Okay. Obviously, your flipper has to be powered up to do it, and I think that there is software put into the game in which your left flipper powers up pretty quick. So hitting the jump ramp at home is fun. When I try to hit it on location, the ball barely cleared the wire for him. So I would say if you're playing this on location and that happens, keep in mind it is. Tom is shocked. He is. He's shocked. Keep in mind. Well, here's the weird part, guys. At home, right, I'm actually afraid of the ball, like, going through the pinball machine after it hits the jump ramp. That sucker just flies. I'd be scared of that thing hitting the iPad on the left-hand side. Well, it actually never goes over there. Like, even if I have any rejects, I mean, maybe that promo video of the ramp being, like, tilted to the left, it might accidentally go over there. Your kid's chin flipping.
    111:35
    No, I mean, overall, you know, I think the jump ramp is cool. So Gabby Gabby Mech overall, I mean, it's kind of like a take it or leave it type thing because it's weird because it has like no give or anything like that. Like you hit it, you're not even sure if it registered or not outside of like the face just going back down to the play field pretty quick. There's really no sound that I can hear that indicates it's been hit or anything like that. It just drops. Yeah, it just shows up and then it just drops. So, and it shows up in an area of the play field that it's easy to hit, you know. But that being said, I really love the shot from the left flipper from a cradle through the woody spinner into the saucer and then the upper spinner or the upper flipper. That shot's pretty smooth. It kind of reminds me of like a, nearly like a reverse earthquake or earthquake, earth shaker. Yeah. It kind of reminds me of that. But yeah, overall, I mean, that's about it in terms of combos. Yeah, there's combos in there. but there's nothing in the game that I can tell that's really combo-driven. Like some of your other games from Stern are, it just seems like that there are combos there, but it doesn't seem like that they do much besides just being there right now. So I don't know if there's more code coming along with that or what it could be. So, okay. So my last two questions are, I think one of the things that was said in our chat was, is this JJP's Munsters? like is this the game that was purposely shallow or purposely made for novice players it shoots well it looks great like you want me to answer that yeah is this jjp's monsters yeah pat lawler and joe katz were completely lying that they didn't mean anything they said in the promo at all so yes joel yes but do you think i mean is this something that could be i'm not gonna say salvaged, but could code or code changes make this game more enjoyable for you? I'm going to blow your mind right now.
    113:43
    What if Stern's Munsters is actually Stern's Toy Story 4? What a dumb... My mind is not blown. You asked me if Toy Story 4 was J.J.P.'s Munsters. I'm saying what if Stern's Munsters is their Toy Story 4. Let me hold your hand through this analogy, Joel. Please do. I can't wait.
    114:09
    No, that's it. That's everything. You held it? That was the whole – okay. That was it. What I'm saying is, like, is this a game – so, obviously, Joe Katz, he did Wonka 2.0, and it, like, really brought new breath or breathed new life into the game. I mean, they sold $30 million worth of pens. Yeah, they did their job. Yeah, how much more did they need to do? They will sell more, yeah. Right. This is exactly what they wanted to do. When you put out certain themes, right, and Toy Story happens to be one of those themes, it is a massive IP. I mean, it's probably worth over a billion dollars per year from what everybody puts into it. I mean, Marvel's up there. Star Wars is up there. Toy Story, I'm not going to say that they're on the level of Star Wars, but Toy Story very much is part of just America. You know, it's part of Disney. It's huge. what do you think of eagles mullet hot dogs toy story welcome to america sorry this game sold terrible in australia that's what it is though i mean they have toy story land at disney world that's i mean that's what everybody associates toy story so it's it's part of american culture is what I'm trying to say. And it's been a part of it for nearly 30 years. Why do we have this guy, Tom? Oh my God.
    115:34
    He's been trying to leave since we started. It's huge. I get it. It's a huge thing. They sold, I mean, yes, they sold all the LEs. They were all pre-sold in the country. Do you think my tryout right now for Tom is going pretty well with Four Man's Podcast? No, you're going to really take him. I think they would. So the CE sold out on JJP's site in two minutes. Like, it did its job. They sold a ton of them. They will sell a ton of them. So I don't think that they're sitting there thinking, oh, how can we fix this code right now? I mean, it's doing everything that they want it to do. I mean, they fully expect it. I guarantee there's no way that they put this out and that they didn't think high-end players would get through this game or that even Joe Schmo would not get through this game. That was their goal. Well, apparently I'm not Joe Schmo because I won't get through it. I'll tell you. Okay. I'll tell you what, Joel. We've got to make some type of wager here. No, I have no support from you two. I don't care. If I get it, then, yeah. Sorry, you missed a little of me. The bottom line is, Joel and Tom. Pat my head, please, yes. When you see me in person, reach up because I'm collaring both of you. Joel. Pat my head, yeah. The three of us were involved in pinball competitions the past couple weeks. Tom and I won our tournaments. What did you do on yours? Hey, I lost. I lost three to seven. What place did you take, though? Second out of two. I know.
    117:03
    You got second place. Last place. I got last place, Travis. First or last. Joe, you got second place. That's all anybody needs to know about this. People want to know, I did a head-to-head battle against George. Don't panic flip. It's on the Pinball Network. Feel free to watch it. It was great. It was a head-to-head battle on Turtles. How many games did you win? Three out of seven. Three out of seven? So you just said 31? Three out of ten. Oh, God. That's 30% efficient. That sounds more like the Joel we know. I'll take it. Hey, I had a great time, all right? The question is, how do we get George Fisher in here?
    117:38
    That's a great question. Ask him. I don't know. Can we get Joel? Yeah, we need to get winners on this podcast. You're right, Tom. You know, guys, if you didn't realize, the reason this podcast worked is because the three of us aren't the same. If it was the three of you guys talking about how great it is to win competitions. Joel, I can't hear you. I'm justifying my role here. I can't hear you. I'm holding all my Oklahoma State Championship trophies. Okay.
    118:04
    Jeez. Well, on this note, I think it's a great time to wrap it up. Do you have any final thoughts, Tom? We'll start with you. We've got to do Tom Talks. Don't do final thoughts. You've got to do Tom Talks. We'll just. You're going to piss off the people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll jump right into it. Here we go. Yeah, let's go. Tom Talks. You've got nothing to say, Tom, Tom.
    118:26
    Tom, Tom. I got nothing. Tom, you've had some great insight on why you didn't buy Toy Story. You've sat here. You've been a professional. You look great. You sound great when you talk. But I know you're ready for bed. So what – fill us in. What's going on in that big old noggin of yours?
    118:48
    I'm actually really tired. Do you have anything, any final thoughts on the last hour and 58 minutes? These guys have hijacked me. I am being held.
    119:02
    It's a cry for help is what I'm hearing. A handcuff to the chair. It's just funny. I just want to go to bed. Hey, Joel, I'm just trying to go to another podcast. Tom is actually talking about being handcuffed to the chair. Tom, tell us what you're, when you told your wife tonight you had to record a podcast, She goes, is it with Travis and that other guy? Yes. Thank you.
    119:26
    I'm glad that other guy, I'm that other guy in the crap house. That's the best way to end right there. That other guy. Yeah. Sorry. Anything else before I hit the outro button here, Tom?
    119:39
    No, I'm good, I think. I got nothing. Well, Tom, like always, I appreciate you being here. I am really tired, though. I know. Hey, I saw you chugging that Diet Mountain Dew earlier, but apparently it wasn't. Yeah, I've been nursing that for the last four hours.
    120:08
    What? I'm trying to say, like, have you been drinking that for four hours straight? That's a warm, flat Diet Mountain Dew, man. Yeah, it's pretty flat. Yeah. Well, it's clear. I mean, I get it. When you're in on a pin, you are in. And I just, I think you're clearly a wait and see with Toy Story. When you are out, you are out. Travis, do you have any? Okay. No, I'll play it this week.
    120:35
    Lumberjack Johnny's. There we go. We'll talk about it next time you're on. Travis, do you have any final thoughts on your experience? I mean, first, I mean, do the kids still love it? Is Monica happy? Are you glad you were dad of the year for buying it? I would say this game set out to involve kids, family, and all that, and it has succeeded beyond. I've seen my kids play this game more than any other game in the past. They're hooked on it. They're actually playing together, which is just shocking to me. And they're actually going off and playing the other pinball machines around. So there's something to that. So, I mean, I got to say, for everything, I'm happy with what the game is doing. And if it's introducing my kids and family and making pinball more accessible to them, I'm all for it. So, hats off. Hats off to Jersey Jack Pinball. So, hey, and that's where I am. Once again, I am in an unfortunate position. Thank you to Zach and Nicole for letting me borrow, flipping out for letting me borrow games. Hopefully, I'll have a chance to stream one soon. But, hey, this game may be awesome for me. I mean, it may be that, you know, you guys have expressed your opinion on my skill level. So this may be right up my alley on challenging enough.
    121:52
    And I don't know. I'll be curious if you're saying your kids are really enjoying it. I'll be really curious to see how my kids react or how my friends enjoy it. Honestly, Joel, I think for any pinball machine out there, I think this one will tick the most boxes for you. because if you want friends and family to be drawn into something, this may do it. This is it. Where I'm going to struggle, though, is $12,000. Oh, yeah, yeah. My bank account hates me right now because guess what I have sitting out there right beyond this little door next to me you guys can't see. Didn't you get a Godzilla premium? Godzilla premium. Hey, if the kids get their pen, Daddy gets his pen. That's how this works. It was Father's Day for God's sakes. It was. All right, Big Papa out. Love you guys. Wait, no plug? Oh, yeah, you don't have anything to plug anyways. I have zero to plug. I'm just going to get another beer. Tom and Joel, you guys plug away. Well, Travis is gone. Just like he came. He came late. He's leaving early. Yeah, pretty much. Kiggity.
    122:51
    Kiggity. All right, Tom, you have any plugs? Plug away, man. Yeah, I stream on Fox Cities Pinball a lot of tournaments. A couple in July coming up. a big one at District 82 in August. So looking forward to it. Yeah, and it sounds like you, the both of you, just signed up for CLEPIN in September. Oh, yeah. Are you going to go to that? Believe it or not, I've already expressed it. Oh, yeah. There's a possibility. Are you going to play in the tournament with us? Well, I have no idea. I didn't even talk about that. Is your mom going to give you permission to go? Okay, you, come on. So I talked to my wife about it, and our 10-year anniversary is in October. So she goes, well, if you plan a 10-year anniversary trip first, then you can do your pitfall trip. So it's like, oh, ultimatum. Okay. All right. Got it. Does that mean you can't go to Expo? I can't. I've told you, I can't go to Expo because that's during my family vacation. That's why he's coming to Cleveland. For the love of Christ. I'm not excited about it. All right. I'll make Joel just come to Super Series, and he can announce the whole entire time. That's the other thing. If I try to fit in another one, Super Series could be a good time. Cleapin would probably be your best bet. We'll see. Because you actually get to do different stuff. And I can drive, right? It's super close. I mean, I don't know your driving ability, but I'm pretty sure you could if you wanted to. Well, I can't wait for the two of you to... Will your golf cart make it all the way to Cleveland? I don't have a golf cart. God, all right. Well, that's all I've got. My final plugs. Yes, I stream every Wednesday night, 10 to midnight, Eastern Standard Time for the Pinball Network. Check that out. And then every other Thursday for Flippin' Out. We want to rematch, George. We want to rematch. We're going to train up Joel. You're going to play Travis on Toy Story, damn it. Yeah.
    124:46
    Oh, boy. All right. Well, like always, Tom. We'll fight for your honor, Joel. I'm good. My honor's intact. I'm good. I had a great time. It was great. You see that tear coming down, Tom? I do. Believe it or not, guys, I can enjoy pinball without winning. And that's what a loser will say. Obviously. That's what a loser will say.
    125:09
    Sounds like a real loser comment, but I'm going to stick to it. Oh, Lord. Tom, you got the last words. We are the in crowd.
    125:19
    What? Sorry, I'll cut that out. Wow, that was his last words. I know, I'm cutting it out. Let's do it again. No, don't cut it out. Don't cut it out. We're doing it again. We're doing it live. Okay, go again. What's going on, Tom? I want to know what that means. What's that mean? Yeah. Is that a Rush lyric? No, it's a band. What band? Oh, the In-Crow. We are the In-Crowed. That's the name of the band. Okay. From the top. We want you out of the cell. So that's already in, and we're going to have him say the exact same word again? No, he can say whatever he wants to now. Tom, say whatever you want. We will not react. All right. Ready? Go. We are the in crowd.