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The Pinball Show Ep 139: Labyrinth, Elton John, Elvira’s Blood Red Kiss, Ninja Eclipse, Elements, & More!

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 16m·analyzed·Oct 22, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

2023 Pinball Expo recap: Labyrinth dominates as best company launch ever; Elvira surprise edition also succeeds.

Summary

Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel discuss the 2023 Pinball Expo in Chicago, highlighting Labyrinth as the breakout hit that stole the show with exceptional gameplay, immersive world-building, and unusually strong female buyer interest. They also cover Stern's surprise Elvira's House of Horrors Blood Elvira's House of Horrors (Premium/LE) edition, and provide hands-on impressions of Elton John, Ninja Eclipse, Elements, and other new releases.

Key Claims

  • Labyrinth stole the show at 2023 Pinball Expo with 90-95% of attendees citing it as their favorite.

    high confidence · Zach Minney, who was present at the expo and observed attendee reactions throughout the event.

  • This is the best company launch Zach has seen in 11 years in the hobby (comparing to JJP's GNR and American Pinball launches).

    high confidence · Zach Minney stated directly on the podcast episode.

  • Labyrinth has generated more female buyers than every other title in Zach's company's (Flip N Out Pinball) history combined.

    high confidence · Zach Minney, distribution company owner with direct sales data.

  • Labyrinth production is currently at 6-10 units per week, with a goal of 10 per day by January-February and full 1,100-unit run within a calendar year.

    medium confidence · Zach Minney citing company statements from David Van Es and leadership; not independently verified but from manufacturer direct communication.

  • Elvira Blood Elvira's House of Horrors (Premium/LE) edition was unexpected but is selling very well, surprising Zach despite initial skepticism.

    high confidence · Zach Minney's direct observation at expo and subsequent sales data from his distribution business.

  • Labyrinth is released at a single edition model (no Pro/Premium/LE tiering) at $10,600 MSRP with 1,100 unit limit.

    high confidence · Zach Minney discussing company strategy; confirmed during expo conversations with David Van Es.

  • David Van Es is the CEO and Brian Savage is the CBO of the new Labyrinth company (formerly associated with Spooky Pinball).

    high confidence · Zach Minney explicitly named these individuals during discussion of his business conversations at expo.

  • The company implemented Zach's feedback immediately on gameplay and sales strategy decisions.

    medium confidence · Zach Minney's personal account of interactions with company leadership.

Notable Quotes

  • “You walk around and ask 1,000 people what game or product stole this entire damn show, and I would put money on 90% to 95% would say the same thing... They would say it's that damn game, Jim Henson's Labyrinth.”

    Zach Minney @ ~early in episode — Establishes Labyrinth's dominant reception at the expo with specific quantification of attendee sentiment.

  • “This is, and I've been in the hobby for almost 11 years now, this is the best company launch I've ever seen.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~mid-episode — Authoritative endorsement from a long-time industry observer, positioning Labyrinth company launch as historically significant.

  • “We've had more female buyers of this pinball machine than every other title in our company's history combined. And it's not even close.”

    Zach Minney @ ~later in episode — Quantifiable market signal about demographic shift in pinball purchasing, indicating cultural impact of Labyrinth theme.

  • “It's one of the best looking worlds on a play field that I've seen since medieval madness... like Wizard of Oz was the last one that really seemed to drop you into this degree.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~mid-episode — Comparative analysis placing Labyrinth in historical context of immersive pinball world-building.

  • “This thing is selling like Cabbage Patch Kids, Toys R Us, the night before Christmas in the 80s.”

    Zach Minney @ ~mid-episode — Hyperbolic but vivid description of demand levels; indicates FOMO-driven sales comparable to major consumer culture phenomena.

  • “This thing will sell 1100 units. It's going to... when he talks about going into the depths of orbs and getting orbs in different ways, that's where you get depth in pinball.”

    Zach Minney @ ~late in episode — Prediction about sales success paired with rule depth assessment based on tutorial content from Bowen Kerins.

  • “Stern just brings rehashes, so I knew they weren't going to win the show. Jim Henson's Labyrinth, I feel very confident, has basically curb stomped Elton John into the dirt.”

Entities

LabyrinthgameZach MinneypersonDennis CreaselpersonDavid Van EspersonBrian SavagepersonJonathan BergeronpersonBowen Kerinsperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: 2023 Pinball Expo in Chicago was major industry event with multiple game reveals, factory tour, and exceptionally strong attendance and buzz around new releases.

    high · Zach described expo as 'one hell of an event,' mentioned Disney World-length lines for Labyrinth, factory tour drawing crowds, pizza party with 10 Labyrinth machines, and overwhelming positive feedback from attendees.

  • ?

    product_launch: Labyrinth represents a successful new company launch with production games (not prototypes) ready for sale, strong pre-orders, and immediate market acceptance.

    high · Zach emphasized machines came in production boxes from pallets (unit #18 observed), David Van Es stated goal of 6-10/week currently ramping to 10/day by Jan-Feb, 1,100 unit run planned within year, immediate sales success.

  • $

    market_signal: Labyrinth experiencing exceptional demand with lines comparable to theme park attractions, indicating strong collector and casual player interest.

    high · Zach: 'Disney World line lined up to the back of the assembly hall just to play not one, not two, but four of these pinball machines on the floor the entire weekend.' Described sales trajectory as 'Cabbage Patch Kids' level FOMO.

  • ?

    collector_signal: Labyrinth attracted significantly higher proportion of female buyers than any prior title, suggesting theme appeal (Henson) and inclusive game design resonates across gender lines.

    high · Zach: 'We've had more female buyers of this pinball machine than every other title in our company's history combined. And it's not even close.' This represents unprecedented market behavior for his distribution company.

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.229

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:11
The Pinball Network is online. Launching The Pinball Show. This week on The Pinball Show, something a little different. Dennis and I have no time to waste as we give you a rundown of the 2023 Pinball Expo in Chicago. Which game won the show? What was the surprise of the show? And hands-on experiences with new games such as Elton John, Labyrinth, Ninja Eclipse, Elements, and more.
0:53
9 a.m. Baby, the power. And I'm gonna be high as a kite by then. Power. Who do? You do. Do what? Mind me at the bay. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle. I miss the earth so much. I miss my wife. I stole my baby. It's lonely out in space Climb for the space It's time for the pinball show Time, that's right What kind of magic spell to use It's pinball with personality And I think it's gonna be a long, long time Dennis, I could open up the show saying dance, dance, magic, dance. I don't want to sing. I could be a rocket man and fly off into outer space. Or I could get a nice, juicy, wet, blood-red kiss from the sweetness that is Elvira. My voice, everybody. This is the Pinball Show, episode 139 with Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel. My apologies right now for not only my sexy, seductive voice, but it's the audio quality of this lapel mic and the acoustic chamber of this hotel room. How's it going, Dennis? It's going well. I'm pleased that we've taken a month to record and the quality has only deteriorated. I love that so many people stopped me at Expo here in Chicago and said, Oh my gosh, I love the show. Where's Dennis? All that bullshit I have to deal with every time I go somewhere that you're not. No, they always ask for Greg. You don't get that, do you? Do you ever get, where's Zay? Where's Zay? I like Zay. You don't get that. I don't go anywhere, so why would I? Yeah, you're being – I'm like the Greg Bone. I'm like the ugly Greg Bone. You're podcast Greg Bone? Yes. I'm the podcast-faced version of Greg Bone. Oh, my gosh. But everybody comes and asks where Dennis is, and they're always like, man, your shows are so great. There's so much production quality, and then they get this audio junk right here. So our apologies. I didn't want – what are you going to bring, a condenser mic and a mix? No, no, no, no. I did one time. I'm just saying. I was thinking about it. No. I still have emails I haven't answered. That's a mess. The Chicago Pinball Expo 2023 has been one hell of an event. You missed, I would say, a great event, Dennis. I know why you didn't come this year. It's only because of work reasons. It's not at all because of your desire. But I think it did very well. Very busy. And a lot of cool things came out this year. And we'll go over those. I did want to let everybody know, Dennis, that this is not going to be a typical normal episode. Because you have things going on today. I sure as hell have to get out of this hotel room before security comes and gets me. But we had to talk to these people. It's been a month. Yes. So let's skip the Craig Bobby. Sorry, Craig. Just keep enjoying your giant smiles around Expo. He was getting some love here. CB. So what game do you want to start with? I mean, you're the one at the show. You get to decide. Let's do this. I don't know how close you've been following or even the listeners on the Pinball Expo, but remember what was a month ago for our exclusive club members that listened. We gave them pretty much all the info that they wanted to know about upcoming games this year, And a big portion of that, Dennis, was how many new games we could see at Expo. And boy, did we not. We've seen the likes of new companies like Barrels of Fun Pinball. We've seen the oldest of companies, Stern Pinball, come out with something new. And they had that factory tour that people loved. I didn't get a chance to go over there, but that's where their new Elvira game was shown. I don't even know. It may have been brought down Friday or even today as we're recording Saturday. may be brought down to the floor, but I haven't seen it in person. Other games, JJP's Elton John. We've got Ninja something. Ninja Eclipse. Thank you. Elements by Pinball Adventures. And a homebrew I'd like to give a special shout out to later in the show. I think we should start with what stole the show. What did steal the show? This, okay, so people are going to say I'm biased because I'm a distributor. of this company. But you're a distributor for several of these companies that could have stolen the show. But here's the thing. We don't have time for you, listener, to walk around the show and ask 1,000 people, but I shit you not. You walk around and ask 1,000 people what game or product stole this entire damn show, and I would put money on 90% to 95% would say the same thing with a big-ass smile on their face. They would say it's that damn game, The Labyrinth over there, with a Disney World line lined up to the back of the assembly hall just to play not one, not two, but four of these pinball machines on the floor the entire weekend. And then a pizza party last night with another six or ten total games at this expo. And it is slaying. Like a game released that I haven't seen in quite some time. and honestly I can't believe it because this is a new company I that's objective objectively everybody loves Labyrinth and here's what happens I've been telling people Dennis whenever a new game comes out people that are slick with videography like me we we pull you in with videos right and we pull you in with sizzle reels and people pull out their wallets I'm guilty of it but what happens is then you get people that come up to the game and they play it and they're like, no, it's not what I was expecting. It doesn't feel the same. I was expecting this, you know, and sometimes there's a little letdown in games in general.

Dennis Creasel @ ~mid-episode — Directly compares Labyrinth's reception to Jersey Jack's Elton John, indicating Labyrinth's market dominance over JJP's title.

  • “I didn't do a damn thing, but saying, how could you advertise for this?... My job is to sell cool toys and I love my job.”

    Zach Minney @ ~late in episode discussing Elvira backlash — Reveals tension between distributor business interests and collector concerns about special editions cannibalizing prior purchases.

  • “Jim Henson's Labyrinth helped make a pinball machine. And then the mechanisms. Finally, we get a game that has multiple diverters, has magnets, has fun, creative things, but it's surrounded by a world.”

    Zach Minney @ ~mid-episode — Articulates Labyrinth's design philosophy: mechanics integrated with immersive theme rather than mechanics for mechanics' sake.

  • “The initial code set might even feel like that. But when he talks about going into the depths of orbs and getting orbs in different ways, that's where you get depth in pinball. That's why people love Rick and Morty.”

    Zach Minney @ ~late in episode — Explains rule depth mechanics and draws parallel to Rick and Morty's successful approach to complexity.

    • Pinball News (Pinball Expo 2023)
    event
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Elton Johngame
    Elvira's House of Horrors (Premium/LE)game
    Ninja Eclipsegame
    Elementsgame
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Flip N Out Pinballcompany
    Barrels of Fun Pinballcompany
    Pinball Adventurescompany
    [name withheld pending review]organization
    Dr. Johnperson
    Greg Boneperson
    The Pinball Showorganization
    Bells and Chimesorganization
    Jim Hensonperson
    David Bowieperson

    design_philosophy: Labyrinth prioritizes immersive themed world-building and environmental storytelling over pure mechanical complexity, resonating with players who value aesthetic and narrative experience.

    high · Dennis: 'There are a lot of people who hunger more for that than a deep rule set or the flowiest game to ever flow. That's what they want is to feel like it's the world.' Zach noted 'molding that moves' with Ludo and creatures integrated into playfield design.

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Pre-reveal skepticism about Labyrinth as a pinball theme gave way to massive enthusiasm post-trailer and gameplay reveals, indicating community acceptance of unconventional IP choices.

    high · Dennis noted pre-Expo polls favored JJP over unknown titles, but Labyrinth 'basically curb stomped Elton John into the dirt.' Zach admitted initial doubts: 'Maybe I'm just being naive, but I just didn't see Labyrinth being a theme that does it.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Labyrinth company strategy of releasing single edition (no Pro/Premium/LE tiers) represents departure from industry norm and reduces production/marketing complexity while building scarcity.

    high · Zach: 'This company says I don't even know if they got a damn name for it... edition it's just one edition.' Dennis noted precedent: Spooky and American Pinball also started single-edition but later expanded.

  • ?

    product_concern: New Labyrinth company located in Texas without established pinball labor pipeline, creating potential bottleneck risk for scaling from 6-10/week to stated production goals.

    medium · Zach: 'I would have had more confidence if they had located not in Texas but in Chicago where you had ready access to line workers that float between these companies.' Current 6-10/week pace would take extended time to reach 1,100 units.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Labyrinth's success appears to have significantly outperformed Jersey Jack's Elton John at same expo, suggesting market preference shift and potential for new entrant to disrupt established manufacturer hierarchy.

    high · Dennis: 'Labyrinth, I feel very confident, has basically curb stomped Elton John into the dirt... I don't think that really surprises a lot of people since they saw the game before it went there.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Labyrinth company chose classic, culturally iconic Jim Henson IP (1986 film) for debut machine, demonstrating confidence in established intellectual property with multigenerational appeal.

    high · Zach: 'George Lucas, Jim Henson, how can you go wrong?' Noted surprise at IP choice for first pinball machine: 'If I'm starting a company... I wouldn't necessarily think I would be looking for the labyrinth to purchase IP.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Labyrinth monetization strategy uses optional accessories (interactive topper, mirrored backglass, alternate artwork, shooter knob) rather than tiered editions to increase ARPU without fragmenting player base.

    high · Zach: 'not everybody wants a topper so they're offering that beautiful moving interactive topper as an accessory... mirrored back glass is accessory... all of this works for one model.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Stern Pinball's surprise Elvira Blood Red Kiss edition reversed skepticism about rehashed titles, with unexpected success indicating market appetite for premium special editions of beloved classics.

    high · Zach: 'I said, oh, no, guys... You guys are making the premiums next year, right?' Response surprised him: special edition sold extremely well despite initial negative reaction to idea of another Elvira variant.

    • 7:06
    This game, fortunately for me, this game has actually exceeded. Once people play it, they're even more excited. Sales go up after you play it, so that's always a fantastic sign with any new pinball game. So that's been awesome. Now, the labyrinth, whenever this was coming out, we didn't pay this damn company any attention. You talked about it on EGP last week, you and Tony, that we had Melvin, George, George, Sperlin, Sperlin, emailing us. That was the Sparrows of Fun Company. And it annoyed the hell out of you and I, and we wouldn't pay attention to it, right? Right. Well, they weren't giving us any info. We're not fishing. So we didn't pay him no attention. And then all these little clues started coming together. And I was like, shit, are they really doing the labyrinth moment? Like a Jim Henson film from 86 starring David Bowie and Jennifer Connelly. It's also associated with George Lucas. Not the name drop there on how great this IP is. But George Lucas, Jim Henson, how can you go wrong? and the bulge that is the Bowie. I have been a huge fan of this IP since I was a child. Now, do I think this was a good theme for pinball? It's exceptional for pinball. But if I'm starting a company, Dennis, I told this to the CEO and the CBO.
    8:39
    Hats off because I don't necessarily think I would be looking for the labyrinth to purchase IP for, especially for a first pinball machine. What are your thoughts? I think overall, a little mystery, teasing stuff aside, which I thought was pointless. Annoying. And I have no regrets for not giving it any coverage at that time. Same here. This is, and I've been in the hobby for almost 11 years now, this is the best company launch I've ever seen. I heard you say that earlier in some conversations. and I wanted to argue with you because I'm like, dude, JJP, they have slayed some of their releases.
    9:23
    Their launches, not this Elton John, I'll be the first to say, not Elton John, but like GNR, that was a launch. GNR was a launch. I don't mean the best game launch of all time. I mean the best company launch. Like when JJP launched and American Pinball launched. I've seen a lot of them come and I've seen a few of them go too. And that's what I mean. I don't mean the best. No, it's not the best game launch. But as a company launch to come out, reveal your company, reveal a game, have them ready at a very close upcoming show, have it be licensed, have it be a popular license, and have the reaction to the gameplay be good. That is the best success of a company launch I can tell you about. I can see that argument. I've not been around as long, but in the short time I've been around, what, seven, eight years here?
    10:17
    Yeah, but we're not used to this. We are used to new companies, even if they're successful in the future. We're used to companies stumbling and popping their nose on the corner of the cabinet and a little blood trickling on a new carpet. And we think it's sweet and we help along. But you're right. This company, but this company is full of people that know pinball. Sure, but some of the predecessors that have struggled are as well. Absolutely. So I was still a little gun-shy personally myself. I found it was Labyrinth. I reached out to this company, and I think I could say that here. I said essentially, all right, like the media cue shit aside, whatever. I'm actually interested if you guys are really doing a labyrinth pinball machine. That's that's near and dear to me. So let's talk some business. Are you are you selling these direct? Are you doing distribution? What what's going on here? And that quickly got me into a conversation with their CEO, David Van Ness, formerly from from Spooky Pinball and Brian Savage, who's the CBO, the chief business officer. and I had a ton of questions because they were open to some distribution discussion. And, uh,
    11:41
    so I talked with them for hours and at the end of it, I was like, I should, I think the, I think they got it. I think they know what they're doing and I feel good. And the, the kicker for me, because new companies scare the piss out of me because I'm not a big company and I don't want to lose money. But the kicker for me was I gave them a couple suggestions because they asked for feedback and I saw some things that I'm like, oh man, they're great, but if they just changed this, the response would be so much better. And they implemented it immediately.
    12:17
    And it was like when they opened sales and how they launch a trail, just stuff like that and gameplay. And it paid them dividends in the end. And that attention to feedback and implementation. I've been very happy thus far. Now, they're still babies. They are still babies, but they're trusting a distribution network as well as selling direct. So we'll see how that goes. But yeah, you're right. Whenever they launched their teaser, it was like a teaser to tell what the theme was.
    12:55
    That went over, again, still labyrinth though. still Labyrinth. So people, eh, all that Jim Henson thing. And then they showed the game and I think they convinced a lot of people just with the sizzle reel showing the level of detail, interactivity, mechanisms, asset usage, attaining assets they have, that they really, really intrigued a lot of people just in that first sizzle reel.
    13:22
    Maybe I'm just being naive, but I just didn't see Labyrinth being a theme that does it, but there's more people like me out there that love Labyrinth. But there's a ton of people, Dennis, that have not even seen this movie, but they're still in love with this game. Yeah, I think there's a mix of things in play. I think that Labyrinth is one of those, again, this is kind of where Jersey Jack used to be at, and you could argue they still try, at least on some of their titles, about it being super family-friendly, but deeply nostalgic.
    13:55
    Also, I think in the interview that Dr. John did with David Van Ness, talked about how a lot of men and women both love the game as well. It's not just seen as, oh, that's a guy's title.
    14:08
    That can help it. I think the big thing was when the trailer came out, one of the things, we often joke about the wild under glass.
    14:18
    Regardless, really, if it was going to be the greatest shooter in the world. They did such an excellent job of making the game look like you're in the labyrinth with the use of the, like, and we'll get to Elton John in a little bit, but while looking at the two, I could probably tell you, like, looking, I would say there's more Bill of Materials than Elton John, but the implementation that was done in Labyrinth is so well done that it makes you feel like you're in the world.
    14:44
    It is very much a world. And there are a lot of people who hunger more for that than a deep rule set or the flowiest game to ever flow. That's what they want is to feel like it's the world. And I got to admit, I mean, this is one of the best looking worlds on a play field that I've seen since medieval madness. It feels like, yeah, a diorama. Or Woz, maybe compared to Wizard of Oz. Wizard of Oz was the last one that really seemed to drop you into this degree. and interesting enough that it was uh their first entry into into pinball with jersey jack and was but and you know one could argue well maybe that's how they turned but turn out first but maybe their second title who knows but uh yeah when i first saw the game inside i thought the same thing i thought oh damn like there's there's not a lot of 2d plastics there's a lot of molding and not only the molding because molding is great but then when you have molding that moves and has Ludo popping out of a building roof, when you have the little yellow worm popping out, you get the little heads, the fireys popping out, it feels like Jim Henson helped make a pinball machine.
    15:57
    And then the mechanisms. Finally, we get a game that has multiple diverters, has magnets, has fun, creative things, but it's surrounded by a world. It's not just mechs and diverters. It's a molding. It's a world. One of the things that people said is it's pretty brown, and that makes sense because of the world labyrinth. And I'm like, brown is not a natural color to mechanical pinball. So it is very world-like in that. Yes. Yeah, and I think some of those things, seeing some of those elements, again, help tie into the – Because we never really had Henson-style puppetry in the world of pinball. Even though he's been so iconic and there's been so many things that continue to live on well past his death, like Muppets and stuff, we just don't see it. Yeah, Sesame Street, we don't see it. And this stuff is deeply popular with people. Because a lot of people just get exposed to it at such young ages. We grew up with this. Everybody did, yeah. Another thing that I would throw in, which I'm sure is a factor and has helped, is that they also never underestimate that there is a big streak in the collector community of pinball that wants to help the little guy, wants to get in on the ground floor with a new company. Very true. And so there's always been, and a lot of times it's bitten people in the butt because there's this desire to help the startup, to help this new idea with this new creativity. and so actually having all this come together so quickly i think a lot of people who love that idea but have been like i've seen too many skit bees and vonnie d's i just can't do it to be like oh okay no look at all these names and all these like these are all pinball veterans they're actually bringing games to expo holy crap it's ready to go you know it's like that that's really helped quite a bit and and the thing was they're not bringing prototype games these are production games in boxes. The one that I'm taking home, I believe, is number they have it labeled number 18. But it comes, it came off a pallet in a box, all the wrapping material. It was very impressive. People, you're right, people do love the little guy, the underdog, the new starter. But people are also scared shitless about those people too. So they're supportive from a distance. And then when you show, we start checking boxes for people for better or worse, us pinball nuts, we start diving in.
    18:26
    With this one, it's really easy to do so because of all of that we've talked about. In addition to, we've given Johnny Crabb a lot of shit, Dennis. We as media in general. I've got to give him a lot of credit here because Johnny Crabb's worked on a couple different games now, and while I think he's immensely talented, his style has not clicked with me yet until now. I was surprised to hear that that play field, that's Johnny Crabb. And that accessory, there's only accessories with this. It an alternate accessory Of course a gold mirrored back glass you can buy but it alternate artwork for those that don want so much Bowie But he did that artwork as well. And people have been saying how beautiful the artwork on the play. People love this play field art and I'll give it to the guy. It looks fantastic. Like it's almost MC Escher illustration, like where, which is right in line with The Labyrinth and some of why I like The Labyrinth as well. I'm a big MC Escher fan too, but I'll give him a lot of credit. The other artist, forgive me, I don't know what his name is, but he slayed the regular Bowie, Bad Glass, and the Cabinet art.
    19:47
    But Bergeron, coming from some Johnny crap here, I've got to give him a lot of credit. I thought his Jurassic Park art was fine. I didn't know why people were so upset.
    19:59
    Exactly. It's fine. We don't do fine in pinball anymore. I mean, I think this is fine, too. I'm not blown away by the – I just like that it looks like the labyrinth. Yeah. Like the bridge across the play field? That looks almost three-dimensional.
    20:15
    It's flat. It's just flat graphic. Another interesting thing about this company is that they're coming out with just one model. we us pinball people always talk about it is there ever going to be a company that forgoes the whole pro premium le you can call it what you want now it's platinum edition now it's collector's edition it's uh the deluxe model of a gtf it's uh it's the tank edition signature this company says i don't even know if they got a damn name for it uh edition it's just one edition how do you feel about that? Smart? Dumb? I think it's smart,
    20:55
    but more so... It's still limited, but... Well, I mean, regardless, that helps a lot with it making sense for them.
    21:04
    There's a whole proof of the pudding is in the eating sort of thing. We've seen other companies do that and then change later. Spooky was a one model until they weren't. American Pinball was a one model until they weren't. They may change from that if they choose to up the production. If they're going to stay limited, though, there's really no reason to do more than one. Yeah, when they presented that to me prior to launch, they said, we're going to do one model. And I'm like, oh, here we go. Let's see if, let's see. And then they showed me all that's in this game. And I'm like, well, this, so you could argue that this has more features in it than many other manufacturers, LE. So, okay. Like, I can see, I can see what they're putting into it. down to the detail of this is stupid, silly detail that nobody needs, but it makes me smile and I love it. Like gold mirrored plastics on the play field, Dennis. Gold mirrored plastics. Plastics. Oh, you know this makes me so happy seeing details like that. Well, saying it was the game that stole the show, I don't think that's actually going to, I mean, some people might say you said it for shilly shill reasons, but I don't think that really surprises a lot of people since they saw the game before it went there. Honestly, the buzz all online has been exceedingly positive. I think what's interesting is where you probably saw polling where people were going into Expo before we knew that Labyrinth was Labyrinth. We're probably saying JJP was what they were most excited about, maybe followed by what Stern was going to bring. Stern just brings rehashes, so I knew they weren't going to win the show. but Labyrinth, I feel very confident, has basically curb stomped Elton John into the dirt. I got a poor visual of Hoggle just going, poor Elton. We'll talk about that. To summarize here on Labyrinth, the price point at $10.60 I think works as well for one model. not everybody wants a topper so they're offering that beautiful moving interactive topper as an accessory uh mirrored back glass is accessory a shooter knob is an accessory i think all of this works i still before i seen the game so i'm not going to be too hard on myself before i seen the game they said 10 600 and 1100 units i was maybe that's why they like me i was very honest i was Like, that's a lot of games, guys.
    23:38
    Nobody knows you. People know you individually because they know you as pinball people. But 1,100 units of an IP like the Labyrinth, 10-6, that's going to help your 1,100. But I was trying to set their expectations because I know what other games sell and how many, for the most part, other games sell in the LE fashions. and 1100 is a lot of games, but I don't, this thing will sell 1100 units. It's going to. We've seen the tutorials with Bowen Cairns and the depth of this game. So this isn't a 90s Ballywilliam. It might feel like that. It might look like that. The initial code set might even feel like that. But when he talks about going into the depths of orbs and getting orbs in different ways, that's where you get depth and pimble. That's why people love Rick and Morty. And I think on subsequent episodes, we'll talk about this team coming, a lot of them coming from Spooky, which is a whole nother discussion. There's just a lot of details. But at the end of the day, this thing is selling like Cabbage Patch Kids, Toys R Us, the night before Christmas in the 80s. Did that work? I think it works. It works pretty well. I'm mostly interested because I'm not in the market for Labyrinth myself, but what I'm mostly interested in seeing is there have been so many companies that have sprung up and have been springing up lately, and none of them until now have felt to me like they actually have the potential to disrupt some of the other companies. And this one might actually shake this. Now I extra think that some of these existing ones we know about, they ain't going to last. They still got to make games, though. So Van Ness and the team there kept saying, like you can tell, they're not focused right now. They're like, yeah, yeah, but we're making games now. Okay, cat's out of the bag, but we're making games. Everybody's asking, when would I get my Labyrinth if I purchased one? The honest answer that I've told people is if anybody tells you, then red flag that. This is a new company. Like who who this this to me feels like it's going to be a spooky kind of thing. It's going to probably continue to ramp up as they've talked about. They said they have they pretty much have all the parts for all the games, which is very impressive. They have full staff now to accommodate, you know, building 10 to 25 a day. But they're not there yet. They're still in the let's make sure these line workers know how to build this game. So they're at probably 6 to 10 a week right now. That would take a long time to build 1100. And we've seen other companies that have had a lot of good ideas, and it's the building that's the stumbling block. So that's very fair to point out. And, of course, this will be a big proving time for them. I would have had more confidence if they had located not in Texas but in Chicago where you had ready access to line workers that float between these companies and know how to do pinball. But they've made their decision. Yeah. And the good thing is they're continuing to their goal is to, you know, January, February rolls around. We're going to start seeing 10 a day. You know, they said that's their goal. They're not going to commit to any of that. But they have other games. I don't think I think I say that they they have plans for future products. And they said it's important that they complete the schedule for this first initial product so that they can get to product to product three, etc. So regardless, they need to have a pace in which they can continue rolling out products. So their goal is within the year, within a year, full calendar year, to have the bulk of these 1,100 made. And the last thing, and then we'll move on to the next game, was for whatever this is worth, I don't even know how to do a market analysis on this, but it was just so delightful to see. We always talk about Dennis Wee as the royal we of pinball media and the community in general. We talk about increasing diversity, increasing women in pinball. You talked about that with the Dr. John interview, which go listen to it if you guys haven't heard that. But how to get more women into pinball. We want more women into pinball. Bells and Chimes is doing fantastic work. Tournament, competitive play. There's a lot of avenues that are just boosting that exponentially, which is what we need.
    28:17
    For whatever reason, this game, this is just a sales data from my perspective, we've had more female buyers of this pinball machine than every other title in our company's history combined. And it's not even close. It was such a great thing to see and talk to women that said, I want to buy this game. I'm a big pinball person. Finally, this feels like a game that I can enjoy, a game that's not aimed for me, but a game that I can accept and I love. So it's awesome seeing these orders come in. And while I'm assuming that names like Samantha or Jennifer are female, it's great to see so many females buying and getting behind a title. It's something that I haven't seen yet. And it's cool. It's cool as shit. I can sit here and talk Henson all day long. But that wouldn't be too fun for these people. Maybe these people were waiting for the surprise of the show, Dennis. Ghost.
    29:23
    Ghost. for me the surprise of the pinball expo 2023 was actually stern pinball's elvira's house a horse blood red kiss edition where the hell this thing come from i i don't know i mean it's a game no one asked for but everyone probably likes i i love my stern pinball peoples when they messaged me We're going to do a special edition of Elvira. I said, oh, no, guys, we did the 40th. We did that one. Somebody fall. We're fine. We're good. We have the Elvira. You guys are making the premiums next year, right? Well, we're running a blood red kiss edition in which we are going to make the predominantly black and white monochrome. And then we're going to detail pieces throughout with a sparkling red, the blood red. and I'm like, oh, well, shit, that sounds really awesome.
    30:22
    Maybe I'm just, man, I'm just scared nowadays. I was scared about Labyrinth coming out, if anybody would buy it, and then I was scared about Elvira. They were like, here's your lot, man. I'm like, oh, man, there's so many games. Are people going to buy this?
    30:35
    For me, it was a surprise of the show because whenever that Stern Factory went, that new Stern Factory tour, I guess they set it up there a la Batman 66 kind of thing, and phones started going ding, ding, ding People are like, oh my god, this thing in person is unreal. It's beautiful. I want one of these things. And who would have thought that they could do a special edition of Elvira and it's selling really good. It looks good. I've been looking at the photos and I was like, this actually looks a lot better than I thought it would. I'm a sucker for black and white. Even pictures that are black and white and then they splash some color. I'm always a sucker for that. But a game that everybody loves coming back in the form of a special edition and they're not doing a $25,000 game, but it feels like you're getting all of that stuff for a typical Stern LE price, 500 units. Hot damn, I guess. Yeah, it does work. Surprise the hell out of me. Is there an argument for the people that have the 40th anniversary and they spent a lot of money on that and feel like, well, shit, I thought that was the last special edition. But they're not honestly surprised, are they? Not after what happened with Jurassic Park. I don't know if you can be.
    31:54
    There is an argument. That's the answer. Yes. Of course. It's anyone who's upset. It's Elvira 40th buyers. Not so much necessarily that they paid more, but perhaps that they think that this looks better and they paid more. It's a tough situation because I've had people angry at me. I didn't do a damn thing. but saying, how could you advertise for this? How could you take sales for this? Knowing you sold people a 40th anniversary at $10,000 more than this. Now, what the fuck am I supposed to do? My job is to sell cool toys and I love my job. At what point am I supposed to be like, well, wait a minute, this is a badass, but because the other thing was badass, I should not support this but no i don't you can't do that if i have a 40th i'm happy because i have a awesome game yeah it's there's another one that came out cheaper but what's the argument i you can't expect companies not to not to take advantage of a marketplace that's hungry for specific products that they're able to create i don't know what else to say about it like i it's some At some point, if the market doesn't want them, they'll stop buying them, and then Stern will say, okay, market doesn't want them. I don't know what else argument there is. I mean, I get where they're coming from, but there's no point in being mad at the distribution channels. The anger needs to be directed to Stern and have them deal with it. But as a business, as a company that is trying to keep doors open by selling products, would you do any different? No, I wouldn't care. But I'd take the complaint and say, sorry, you feel that way. Sales have been fantastic on Elvira's House of Horrors Blood Red Kiss Edition. And I wouldn't have initially guessed it. I thought we'd sell some, but yeah, surprise of the show. All right, we need to round it off with some other games. There are other games? A giant, big, old game in the room. And anything that Jersey Jack Pinball creates, Dennis, people pay attention to. because this company creates things that are just different, things that always shine, things that are always bright, things that whether you're a fan of their products or not, they make you stop in your tracks and pay attention. And even the biggest Jersey Jack haters out there are eager for every single release. I don't care what they say, they are. Jersey Jack, there's just something different about a Jersey Jack game, is there not? Yeah, the price. Oh, they kind of let the crock out of the rock here, letting us know ahead of time, a couple days ahead of time, that it was going to be Elton John with some good teasers. And then they let us know the 19th was going to be the day. The 19th fell on, what was that, Thursday? Yep, it was Thursday. But to me, it was Tuesday. and it uh the first thing they should shown was the sizzle reel and pictures uh professional pictures yes and people analyze them oh they analyze them stupid media so as we analyze this when they came out of that sizzle reel they're the best in the business that they're spending more time on these sizzle reels than feature-length films that some producers and directors put like these are events i'm envious of these sizzle reels that come out of jersey jack pinball typically contracted out by element studios yes i finally got to meet the the guy that runs element studios and these projects uh at a at a mixer this weekend it was fantastic but um the sizzle came out and can we give a a hand and applause to another best of the industry sizzle reel launch video I mean yeah though I'm starting honestly to get concerned that they're spending way too much money on them I mean having like players start to float and fly away from the games and stuff I mean what's next imagine if they had Avengers are we gonna like have Thanos snap half the players out of existence and stuff I'm concerned about the budget here oh my god they're so good just like the players are flying away And I'm like, why is he flying away? What is this? Let's maybe keep this a little grounded.
    36:26
    I'm like, forget the game. I want the sizzle, baby. I want the baby. Oh, my gosh. I saw Colin Kanetis' shout-out brought his baby to the show. My gosh, dude. I'm getting old. My kids are too old. I want babies. I want babies again. They probably thought I was weird. I was like, you're so happy, aren't you? Yeah. I had a little boy. He was smiling. That was great. That was the highlight of my show, the baby. Colin's cracking up right now because him and his wife were like, yeah, Zach loved the baby. Okay, where are we at? You were becoming the Goblin King, taking babies.
    37:04
    But we're on Elton John now. Sarah, I want your baby. Actually, I want you. It's creepy. It's weird. I want to see that. You look at him and you go, I can be cruel. That's right. The 13th hour, I'll take your baby. Okay, Elton John, what were your first impressions of seeing what I'm calling the loudest pinball machine ever created? I think it's captured a lot about, like, it looks like a pretty good job of capturing the world of Elton John. A thousand percent.
    37:39
    It is loud, flamboyant, colorful. It may be one of the most beautiful and stunning pinball machines ever created. Period. Dot. That is a sexy-ass pinball machine. You can't walk into a room with that pinball machine and not be like, Oh, shit! There's lasers on the ceiling. There's glitter that's... Oh, there's glitter falling off the cabinet. Like, wow! This thing is nuts. Everything You should see the CE in person Dennis It is bedazzled to a degree I never seen a product much less a pinball machine There like it feels like there rhinestones in this thing It's so colorful and bright. And who better to attribute color and brightness and cheeriness than the designer of the game, Steve Ritchie? Yes, yes. Well, that was the other thing I noticed. I looked at this, and I go, I have seen this form before. In fact, I think I own this game already. Oh, elaborate. Well, when I saw it, the first thing I did, and I'm sure others do this, I started counting flippers. And I started looking where those flippers were. And I started looking where those shots were. And then I started going, wow, there's a lot of Star Trek and Spider-Man. And basically every kind of Richie layout stereotype we've had for the last 30 years here. Yeah, this is a Richie. And I'm like, this is definitely a Richie.
    39:19
    And, oh, you know, I'm sure, and I guess I could have asked and been polite, but I'm sure based off of how you described it and everything, that, like, Labyrinth has been doing well for you. You made it clear that the new Elvira has been doing well for you. I'm going to preemptively apologize to you, Zach, because I don't think Elton John is going to do well for you. I was suspicious with the theme itself, but here was my reaction. And this is as amazing, as colorful, as well integrated as the toys, as cool as the little light thing on the piano is. It's really hard for me to look at this and go. So the whole difference with Steve Ritchie going from Stern to Jersey Jack is he got to have a few more rotating toys on the game. and that's the big change-up, because this looks like it's going to play great, but I already own this game, because I own Star Trek. So why would I buy it? Especially as expensive as it is, and especially because I prefer Star Trek over Elton John as a theme.
    40:22
    That's my concern, Zach. I'm sorry. I don't think this is going to... Maybe this outdoes Godfather for you, but I don't think it's going to outdo Toy Story 4.
    40:31
    That's my prediction. I stand by it after looking at it. I'm going to say that in private conversation, I told you, I forgot who else was in the chat, but I said, you know what? Expectations when you hear Elton John, I'll say it, pretty damn low. Elton John, for me, and in my opinion, for pinball, not a great IP to secure for pinball. They will be mad at me saying that. but I'm pretty open about that prior to even this release. I don't think Elton John's a great choice in pinball. We've seen it, the nostalgia of an Elton John, and some of that nostalgia works immensely in this game from the Captain Fantastic days. That works, I get it. But still, the relevancy of an Elton John, I just don't think it's dynamite. okay just as i was worried about an ip like the labyrinth being dynamite i almost hold these two intellectual properties uh on a similar playing field i still kind of get the edge of the labyrinth just because of the fantasy aspect and the integration into a world fantasy that pinball so easily just sucks up.
    41:51
    Music is more difficult. So what do I want to say about Elton John? Besides its beauty, I told you privately, you know what, expectations are pretty low on this. When people see this and play it, I think we're going to be quite surprised. I think this is actually going to sell much better than Godfather, and I forgot what other example I had. Toy Story 4 was the one I named. Okay. Because we're in the era, we're in what I call the, and I'm sure they won't like it either, but I don't sell their games, so that's fine. We're in the era of bad themes from JJP.
    42:28
    Godfather was not great. And Toy Story 4 disappointed everyone because there was a number four after the word Toy Story. People still, they still sold a lot of Toy Stories. Not as many as I think they expected. They would have sold ten times as much if it didn't have the number four in it. We have to, and maybe it's unfair, but life isn't fair, Zach. Yeah, true. But that was the game that was coming off of Guns N' Roses, which did bonkers sales. Bonkers sales. And Dennis, timing is everything. Because I told you that I think people would be surprised. And while they may be, I also suggested that I think sales are going to do quite better than Godfather, quite better than a lot of things in recent release history, because I thought expectations were low. I knew what this game was, and this game is, like you said, and we'll talk about, a fantastic shooter. it looks the part it does a lot of things well so i was i was pretty confident in it to a certain degree it's still elton john but i was kind of wrong this has not been as widely loved as i thought i don't know if it's it's a what game are we talking about we were talking about venom in the same respect uh in many ways i'm not sold that it's a venom problem i'm not sold that it's an Elton John problem. What I think is a number of different things converging all at once. Don't get me wrong, including the IP of Elton John, but also think about the timing of a release and the importance of how the cadence of how that rolls out. They might've came out with a great sizzle reel but this is following the euphoria that people had over and a new elvira over the labyrinth that's could be the hit of the year and then they roll into the expectations being low on an elton john it's it was easier to remain low on on that plus you also have a market that over the last couple months continues to have a softening to it and when we come out and we hear you know a labyrinth that's 10,600. It's limited and it's loaded with assets out the ass. And then we come out with an IP. Nobody asked for an Elton John. And Oh, by the way, it's still $12,000 for your plat, what they're calling platinum edition, which is, I don't know if people caught this. That's not limited anymore. You're not getting this faulty 5,000 LES. They call it the platinum. It's not limited or a collector's edition at $15,000. And history repeats itself. I think the reaction to an Elton John and subsequently maybe even Dennis to the sales of an Elton John reflect not only the game and the product itself, but the historical stats of their previous products that they have released. In other words, listener, you all are a little gun shy. You're a little worried about you might want this game bad. You might be a little worried about the value of this game in six months if you do buy it. I agree in part, but I think it's a little more – It's not just the game. No, no, no. But I don't think the issue is so much the nature of the competition per se. I did like the comparison. There are just a few things going on here that I think are at issue. So setting aside the theme that no one asked for aspect of it, there are just certain elements to it. And I agree about people being gun-shy because they don't want to buy a game and then lose like $2,000 to $3,000 when they choose to get rid of it. But there's just some other aspects in terms of the approach that happened here. I'm very much reminded of when Stranger Things launched. Okay. And by that, what I mean is when Stranger Things came out, the initial reaction to a lot of people who were super excited for the return of Brian Eddy was, why did he give us the same layout he is already known for? Now, in that instance, a lot of people were hoping for a Shadow-esque layout. They wanted a layout he was known for. They just didn't want it to be Attack from Mars and Medieval Madness. You're right. Now, that game was able to improve over time.
    46:35
    Here, you look at Elton John, and people are going to see the same Steve Ritchie layouts that they readily think of when they think of Steve Ritchie. But there are a few differences. The first is Steve Ritchie hasn't been gone from pinball the same length of time Brian Eddy was. the market has plenty of these layouts available this game is way more than stranger things was and i think the thing that worked so well for because you could argue who was asking for guns and roses i think there was more people asking for guns and roses than elton john but even if we set that aside sure sure the big thing that that guns and roses did because i never really enjoyed how guns and roses played but i loved how it looked because it had that whole stage show it looked like a stage show. This looks like a Steve Ritchie layout with some fairly cool toys glued onto it that spin around in circles and stuff.
    47:26
    So, I just think, and as you noted, the fear of the loss is the fact that Jersey Jack, post, like, after looking at the wrong time, at the peak of the pandemic, has positioned themselves as the most expensive game in pinball. They refuse to lower their prices, and The competition is looking like you're getting better bang for buck. If the value was perceived to be there, I think this could move. But whereas Stranger Things was able to grow legs and become popular because of the really cool UV kits and the rules got really good and people realized it was a good game and now here it's coming back, this – it might grow legs, but I don't think so. I think the problem is the theme isn't strong enough to appeal on the strength of the theme. As you noted, music pins are hard. This doesn't go with, other than just looking like a collection of Elton John stuff, it doesn't feel like anything. And people who love this, and again, I think this game is going to shoot great, but people who love how this game shoots have plenty of far more affordable, far more popular options that Steve already did, and it's not like they're in short supply. Yeah, definitely. That's a great argument. That's what I think it is. It's just – this is what I wanted because I knew I wasn't going to love the theme. I just wanted Steve – it's just the way he always talked. It just – to me, it sounded like Stern was – he was saying Stern was holding them back. And I was just like, I want to see what like mechs and like cannons, like Star Trek next gen, like cannons shooting stuff, like Elton John's firing out of the cannon or something. I don't know what I was thinking. I just thought it would be – Yeah, the accelerator on Getaway. Yeah, I just thought it would be more than a really admittedly cool display thing on the side of piano. Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think the title itself will be okay. And what I mean by that, listeners, is that the CE will ultimately sell out, I think. If not, they'll still sell a lot of units of the CE. what it's going to take though is that sizzle reel was so dynamic that it didn't show that exclusive topper off well and that topper, if you guys go to I'll give a shout out to Loser Kid JJP did a really good job of communicating really well with distribution, they had at the show a nice little private party for distributors prior to the launch so the distributors can come in, play it, get a feel for the game ask questions so the designers creators, coders, and such. So that was a really nice touch. In that room, they showed that laser light show on the ceiling that they couldn't show off at the show on the floor. They couldn't really show off in the sizzle reel. That topper will sell games. It will. It's that dynamic. It's a damn cool topper. Once they show that off, I don't think they have to worry as much. And the CE is just dynamic. It's beautiful. It's gorgeous. Now, here's what I do like the Jersey Jack did. But Jersey Jack, while maybe not as big a bite from the sandwich as we all would like, they still took a bite out of listening to what people want and concerns about value. Did you see what they did? I like the direction they moved on the formerly known as LE, the Platinum Edition, Dennis, where they don't have a limit now. They're throwing that out.
    50:52
    And then also, see what they added? I'm glad they changed that, but it was never honest. They never sold out of the LE edition.
    51:01
    GNR? No, they didn't hit 5,000. No, they didn't. I don't think either one of us could know. Prove it. Prove they didn't. I've got boxes that are well into the 4,000s on GNR. That's right, but no one has noted number 5,000, so I don't think they quite got that far. And even so, who knows? But what I do like that they did with the Platinum Edition is they wanted to provide more value because you're right. They didn't want to drop that $12,000 price point. You can argue they should have, whatever you want. But they added Radcals to their Platinum Edition. They added interior art blades. They added a topper. That is, regardless of what anybody wants to say, that is adding, I'm going to add it up right now. that's adding at least probably $750 worth of additions to this unit. Now, most people would argue, keep that on the CE and take $1,000 off my damn game. But that's not what they did here. But they are trying to add value to these. Now, is it enough? The market will speak for whatever it wants to. Sales will say if it was or wasn't. and even myself, I may not think it's the direction to go or enough of a bite, but they're still adding some value. Well, we'll have to see if that stuff's on the next game because I'm suspecting that they added that stuff because there's actually less BOM on the play field.
    52:32
    Okay. I mean, I'm just thinking back to Godfather. So I played this game, put a couple games on it, and JJP, shout out to them, they even did a nice thing for the media as well. The following day after launch, because the lines were so long for Elton John, they had three units there, two Platinums and a CE. Lines were so long, it's hard to get. So they invited media to a private setting before the expo opened on Friday. And they said, hey, we're going to give you guys an hour and a half. We're going to welcome you guys in. And media can play this thing privately before the show opens, which I thought was a really smart move. but also a really nice move. And I played a couple games.
    53:17
    The thing fucking shoots great. It shoots. Well, it should. I mean, it looks fun. I know, I know. I don't want to, don't let all my dismissiveness on the price and the sale prediction. Same here, same here. It clearly looks, I know this layout. This layout is a fun layout. And I don't know if they'll like me saying this, But as a pinball player, it's about as close to a stern feel as JJP probably will ever get for whatever reason. It is snappy, and it is fast, and it shoots phenomenally. And I assumed that's why they wanted Steve to bring that because one of the biggest complaints JJP has always faced, even on their popular games, is sort of the squishy, sluggish, slow feel they have. And I like the toys. I like the physical ball lock. That piano is freaking sweet. Yeah, I like it. The toys are cool, too. Oh, so cool. Elton John playing. The little crocodile for the ball locks cool. He's moving around. Elton looks at you. Unfortunately, I wanted a Tiny Dancer bash toy, and she's not a bash toy, but she is on there. Well, you bash her stand-up target, and she spins. Yeah, I know, but. The first minute I saw Tiny Dancer, I thought of you, and so did everybody else. Maybe they'll sell me just the figure.
    54:32
    I want a four-inch creasel clone there. They're spinning. Tiny dance. That's what I want. You know how many people fucking came up to me singing that little tiny dancer in your rendition this weekend? Shit. But you're right. Even the rocket with the multiple RGB lighting. That rocket actually looks like the rocket on my custom neon sign I have in my game room. Oh, it does, actually. It's that 50s-style rocket. I thought you were going to say Twilight Zone. It reminded me of the Twilight Zone rocket. I don't remember Twilight Zone very well. I don't like how Twilight Zone shoots. I'm like this.
    55:09
    Sorry, I know. A lot of people love it. Not me. Even the, to the right side, medieval madness catapult launch that goes up the creature from the Black Lagoon ramp kind of thing. That's really cool. It's the spinners. He took a page out of his brother's design notebook and put spinners on each ramp a la Kingpin from Mark Ritchie. Oh, yeah. That's cool. That works really well. So it's fun as hell to shoot. And I was surprising myself because I was like, this is not a game I particularly was like, I'm going to own this game. I can't wait for this like I was Labyrinth or anything or even a theme that I don't like as much, but I know I'll probably still own. This thing will probably end up in my collection. But it all is going to come down to the rules. And we know that the rules are different on this game, which the lead on software is Bill Grupp. This is his first time leading at JJP on software. And, of course, it's a team approach. So they're all hammering ideas out on how to best do this. But he's worked at JJP for a while. But if we rewind, Bill's last work where he was kind of leading and doing a lot of code work was Congo, Bally Williams, 95.
    56:25
    He also did work on Corvette, another game that I love. I love Congo. I love Corvette. and a beloved by a lot of people, Demolition Man. I'm not a fan, but everybody else seems to be. So we've got good pedigree here. This is exciting to me to see somebody else come in and throw their idea of what code can be. And from what I've been told by the company and people within it, this is remarkably different from a code standpoint than the other lead coders at Jersey Jack Pinball, for better or worse, just a lot different. So I'm excited to dive deeper, deeper into the code because that's sometimes what sets me back with Jersey Jack games. It sometimes the code and just the theory of how those teams sometimes like code versus the games that I like to play So I excited about that I will admit whenever I got up to this game I felt like a pinball wizard pun intended because I was hitting every shot Not because they easy shots but because they're familiar shots. Somebody was playing, I forgot who I was talking to, but somebody was playing in there like, that side ramp just feels so familiar. Like that's such a good shot. And I said, because it's the greatest shot in pinball. Yes, it does. it's the warp ramp it is star trek it is it's star trek it's it's more specifically stern star trek it feels just like it that's an okay thing i think but yes that side ramp shot feels great because he is the master at that third flipper shot arguably in my opinion maybe the greatest shot in pinball and it uh it's here too it's the same shot so you put that all aside it's still checks a lot of boxes but i don't know what it is it checks the gameplay it could check the rules it checks the looks even the music i'm not cranking some elton john and the flipping out vein or anything but when you're playing that game it totally makes sense to be jamming with elton john like the track list like looked like good picks to me it's a fantastic track list it's It's you're tapping your feet more so than a lot of music pins for me. Absolutely more so. You get into it with this, but it's Elton John. So I don't I don't know what to do with this. I'd like to have more time on it. I like everything I'm seeing. If it I think people are getting caught up on theming and price. Well, of course, those are the two biggest issues. But my argument is everything else works. so everything else is an a you can't this isn't 2021 2022 anymore zach you cannot blow past price like people were willing to do then it just doesn't work people are too rational with the dollars and you cannot defend anymore the argument that way you don't really lose any value because we do on certain games that have been out three years now elvira comes out that's been out three fucking years man three years it's it's been out sure they do another edition of it and people are buying it like no doubt. There's no other game that you look at and you go, oh yeah, that's Elvira House of Horrors is layout. They don't have that problem. There's only Elvira House of Horrors that looks like Elvira House of Horrors. Yeah. You understand? Same with Labyrinth. Okay. Maybe that is it, because Stern LE's come out and people have no problem.
    59:51
    I mean, okay. Yeah, Venom LE just flew off the shelf. Name another title. I'm telling you the current reality the current reality the convenient convenient foo bodies did great mando did great everything has been performing that was all pandemic that was pandemic stuff and things were and bond benefited from that because that was still that shaky hay is things are is pinball immune from a market downturn is it gonna the thing that's interesting i hate to go back to Labyrinth, but that's surprising people is how well the demand is for buying Labyrinth because it looked like the last big hurrah of the, oh yeah, we just buy everything without really thinking was Foo Fighters. And so, but if we want to talk about how different companies affect other things, I think Labyrinth also, I didn't mention this when we talked about it, but maybe benefiting in no small part to the fact that Stern hasn't announced a third cornerstone at the end of the year. it's just, hey, let's just vault up Stranger Things and do another Elvira. It all has been stuff. Now, there's demand for both of those things. I mean, we knew there was demand for Stranger Things. But my point being, they don't have a new title coming out, at least they didn't at Expo. And so Labyrinth has been able to sort of capitalize on this, especially for all the people that Venom didn't work for. And Venom didn't work for a lot of people, including LE buyers. And even theme-wise, Foo didn't work for a lot of people either. Sure, sure. But there's still that huge surge of – and again, there are other things. Excitement for Jack Danger's first Cornerstone. And there's a lot of stuff going on for Foo in Foo's favor. And it shoots well, so that helps. I can't wait a couple weeks to dive even deeper into the stuff that we've already talked about. No, we're going to – I think we should move the podcast to being monthly. Let's do a quick rundown of the remaining games, though. I got a little time on Ninja Eclipse. We played some Ninja Eclipse. Joel Engelbert from Flippin' Out Streaming and Triple Drain. Just another pinball and Triple Drain and Flippin' Out with Friends and, I don't know, he does a lot of stuff. Golf Karting.
    62:04
    He's such a shill. But we played some. We made sure to play Ninja and Elements. We wanted to play those. Oh, the Pinball Adventures Company. I haven't heard anyone's reactions to either of those games. Like online, I haven't seen any posts, so I don't know. Okay, I wanted to make sure to play those. So let's talk about some Ninja. So I wasn't mad at Ninja.
    62:25
    What an interesting opening statement. I wasn't mad. I wasn't mad at it. They seem, it's like precious. I just want to sit them down and be like, here's the thing, gang. You know, you tried hard this game, guys. It's like a Little League team. Yeah, I'm getting Little League vibes out of this. You really, you gave it your all. And Tommy, love it. Love that stop at second. But, bud, you can't fucking handle a ball worth shit. Like, damn. Just, guys, can you guys dance? Maybe we'll turn into a dance team. Baseball's just not our thing. But you guys really tried. And so there's a lot of stuff that's cool about it. They opened it up for me because it is a dynamically different looking and build of a pinball machine. Why they had to do all of that, I don't know. they're a little lost in what they're trying to do, I believe.
    63:20
    And if they could make the argument that they're creating a different segment of this industry, whether it's like a home machine, okay. The problem, Dennis, is I don't know a lot of listeners know, go and look at this pinball machine. It's pretty. It's funky looking. It doesn't have a coin door. It's because it has a hood latch under it. I did hear about the lack of coin door, which, of course, the reaction to collectors was exactly what I knew it would be. It's not a real pinball machine. You know why they told me? They told me everything's automated on an app. You pay through an app and everything at that local arcade. Doesn't matter. That's not what it's about. It's not about operators being able to route it. It's about people wanting it to not look like a toy in their home. Yep. And Joel noted, and he was correct, that without having that bigger cabinet, without having some of that stuff, it's very light. It's light on its feet. So it moves a lot easier, making it feel a little bit cheaper. some of the they flipped up the hood some of the stuff they're doing is awesome the modular systems they're doing some of the stuff really really well i'll say the animation the artwork is superb it is in fact those deep root people that we all that's the one thing we loved about deep roots like shit their uh their art's really awesome like where are they getting the animation okay some of the same people i talked to them i talked to the guy running it i talked to the mechanical engineer i talked to the coder i talked to the artist talked to all of them and a lot of what they're doing is cool shit. The problem is it's $10,000 plus for this damn game. That's labyrinth pricing. And it's not, the layout's not, Joel was saying the layout's bad. I'd argue the layout's not horrible. It's not great. It's not horrible. It's not knocking socks off. The problem is the mechanics. They don't have the mechanics down yet. We got weird fluttering flipper stuff, strength of flipper issues, coil stuff. They don't have it yet. They don't have it down. And them coming at TPF showed so much. And that's why I just wanted to sit them down and be like, just guys, stop coming to these shows. Consult with somebody. They'll let you know when it's ready. This is not ready. It's not ready. They've got a lot of polish on it. But it's just, it's not there. Not there. A lot of code in it. And it was pretty fun. Repeatable loop. Ramp shot. There's some fun elements to it, some cool mechanics, physical ball locks, but it's just not ready and sure as a fuck is not ready for $10,000 plus.
    65:50
    I'd have a hard time spending $5,000 on that. It's not there. That's unfortunate. Not there. So elements. Elements. I've not even seen a picture of the layout of this game.
    66:02
    There are, at least not a recent one. People tease and stuff, but then elements. People tease the Punny Factory thing from Pinball Adventures. and I've been harsh on that because I don't think it looks like a good game. I've not played it, so take that for what it is. Oh, did they not have Honey Factory at the show? I didn't take the time to play. So I went to Elements because that's the one that kind of people are like, oh, okay, well, this looks better. It's like, okay, what are we basing this on in comparison to? Okay, great.
    66:32
    So I was like, I've got to play some Elements. Now, this game, you walk up to it. It's pretty cool, funky looking, and everybody, the infinity mirror, everybody was drawn to that. You have that upper play field? Oh, cool. Okay. This looks better than Pony Factory. This is another game, listener, that I would love to sit down, McBain or whoever's doing this stuff at Pinball Adventure, and say, guys, like, just, it's not ready. This biscuit is still gooey. this you just put this on the pan you can't serve this to people they will not only will it taste like shit they're going to get sick you you can't serve this did you just say i've never seen it's gonna give you salmonella it felt like that i don't know the decision making behind And allowing this to be put in a truck and brought to a public event. Do you think, as I recall, they had really talked up that they were going to have their second game at Expo. Do you think maybe that it got rushed because of that? I hope so, but that's not an excuse for making another bad decision and showing it. You at that point say we fucked up. We didn't make it yet. It's not ready. I'm sorry. Don't hold us. because the damage that you've done having people put their hands on that is subsequently higher than any missed deadline. That's how bad this is, guys. This is not up to par to most homebrew games that I've seen.
    68:08
    Starting a game was a problem, a functional coding problem. And this isn't me being an asshole. The most humblest ho-hum Joel Engelberth can tell you this. The parts in this game were falling apart. The LED strips in the mirror were falling apart. 3D printing, so cheap that I've never seen 3D printing like this. It felt out of place that there wasn't a piece of bubble gum holding ramps up. It was thin metal returning to middle of play field. It was, I'm not trying to be mean. This was just really bad. It was really bad. And I felt bad for them because there was time put into this thing. This is not a functional working product as it is right now. Maybe this is a prototype. It should have had a big old neon sign that said prototype. I just don't. I think this is a very bad move. This is not a good pinball machine as it is. And I think it would worry any customer in the future as to what this thing could even become, being that they were okay showing it in the state that it is. well that's that's two for on games you didn't enjoy you mentioned there was a homebrew that you played that you wanted to talk about i wanted to give this thing a a shout out because it was everything that people were talking about in the homebrew in the homebrew arena uh i didn't get to play it yet i'm going to try to play it before i leave today but it was eight ball beyond this and And remember, we did kind of mention this months back about the progress that this individual is making. Yeah, I do vaguely remember. Again, my apologies for slipping on the – I'm not in my studio. I'm usually prep. Dennis, tell them. I usually have the notes really. I'm sorry. This is live on location. I don't – see, this is how it works. You can admit your faults. I'm messing up, and I don't have the name of the individual. But I'm talking about it so much now that hopefully that looks up for this. But everybody was talking about 8 Ball Beyond. and they weren't talking about it as a homebrew. I had a couple people say, did you see the new release, the 8-Ball Beyond? I didn't even know that was coming out. They thought it was like a production-ready game. Oh, wow. High praise. And that's why I wanted to mention it here because while I haven't been able to play it, I've heard nothing but glowing remarks. If there was this whole... And my apologies for not going in-depth about the other homebrew machines or even being familiar with them. I don't even know what's down there right now, and I'm not in that area, but multiple people continue to tell me, man, did you play the 8-Ball Beyond? So I thought it's worth mentioning here on the pinball show. So nicely done. That thing is getting rave reviews, and I don't know if it's because of the build or the rules or the shot. I don't know. But if you watch the progress of that over the last year or two, it is very impressive. I'm looking forward to seeing it in person cool whew I can't wait to get back down there I want to play a little bit before I leave well we should probably end the show then you're going to see a lot of stuff coming out from these companies and their new games a lot of media stuff coming out hell I'm taking home a labyrinth because I had to get one right now I want one right now I talked to Bo and Karen's. You know what? First time I've really been able to talk to Bo and Karen's since I've been in Pinball. We just are – Oh, really? Yeah, paths just don't cross. Oh, yeah. No, I mean I don't correspond with him much. Tony and I had him on as a guest years ago on EGP. He's got a sense of humor to him. It's pretty dry. Very dry, very witty. and it was a delight talking to him and just seeing the passion that he has. I knew he had passion in competitive pinball because he's Mr. Papa. We see all the tutorials. But to see the passion he had in actual rules and not only rules, but integrating rules and coding into a game was really a delight. And I love that. I want to take home an Elton John, but I don't think they're on the production line yet. I think we're early November for those. So that's another change that's worth discussing on a future episode. Yeah, so we'll talk about that. In the meantime, Dennis, where can people catch you? It's easiest to email me over at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com. Yeah, and you can email us at thepinballshow at gmail.com, or you can follow us, subscribe, click on the TikToks and the Facebooks and all that jazz. Thank you for all the support for those at the Chicago Pinball Expo about not only TPM, but specifically the pinball show and your love for Dennis Creasel and our dynamic. We got to keep going. People really do admire and love this show. And I thought I was the only one. So I was I was very humbled by that. It's wonderful. And thanks for everybody that came out and said hello. If you guys are wanting to buy any of these pinball machines, look, even if I was down on a pinball machine, I might still sell it, buy it at FlippinOutPinball. You can go to FlippinOutPinball.com or email me at Zach, Z-A-C-H, at Flipp, the letter N, OutPinball.com or text me at 812-457-9711.
    73:38
    I'm trying to think. I think we still have Elvira bots, but I can't guarantee that because I can't get caught up on paperwork to know. I hope I didn't oversell them. I hope I don't have to make a call to Stern and be like, is there any way you can find a couple? Yeah, that's happened before.
    73:57
    And hopefully we'll see some streams from Flippin' Out Pinball. I know that Joel Engelberth will probably be streaming Labyrinth very, very soon here. And then we've talked to JJP about getting an Elton John in the studio, so that'll be fun. And if I'm nuttier than a squirrel turd, maybe I pull an Elvira Blood Red Kiss out of the box. no, Nicole's not going to let me do that. I've been opening up too much new stuff. I just opened up Venom. I'm opening up Labyrinth. Probably Elton John. Maybe.
    74:26
    Dennis, did you see my shower video? My cereal eating sticker video? The barrels video? That was not bad, right? I went back and watched the end because I saw that you were getting in the shower and I was like, I don't know what this is. I turned it off. Someone told me it was a joke thing. No, I went and jumped for the last 10 seconds and saw you with the cereal. I wanted to let everybody know that actually cool kids just call it barrels, right? Because they made fun of the barrels. It's just we call it barrels. But barrels didn't even know I was doing that video. So it wasn't like in conjunction with it. They have no clue.
    75:02
    And I've had some videos recently on Venom, Venom LE. I've had some 4K vertical portrait and regular widescreen gameplay videos. Gameplay guides is what I'm calling them. So check those out as well as upcoming stuff too. I'm excited. This is like Christmas, and we got it twice this year, Dennis. We'll see if we have a hangover. But until then, I'm Zach. This wonderful man is Dennis Creasel. Teach him something, Dennis. Yeah. Well, I guess in honor of your inability to wait because you suffer from Willy Wonka style, I want it now. I'm just going to have you remind you to hold me close, my tiny labyrinth. Maybe Elton can voice the worm thing. Hello. Hello, hello, hello, hello. Have you watched it? And always practice safe pinball. And deep down, right now you're thinking to yourself, but wait, there is no pinball. Marker chance. This is the point to stop people. Yep, it's done. We'll get it. in episode 140. I love you guys. Bye, bye, bye. And boy, oh boy, oh boy, have you been? Thank you. Thank you, Barrels. Thank you, Jersey Jack. Thank you, Stern, for all of these wonderful new products and for toppers. Fuck, I don't know.