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Episode 66 - Tire Kickin'

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·45m 47s·analyzed·Aug 20, 2019
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TL;DR

Industry roundup: Bowen's design approach, Jersey Jack playfield concerns, Stern podcast launch.

Summary

Special When Lit Pinball Podcast 66 covers industry news including Bowen Kerins discussing design philosophy for his next Spooky game, Josh Kugler appearance at Helicon Brewing, Multimorphic's P-Rock platform evolution, Jersey Jack Willy Wonka playfield quality issues (rippling and chipping), and Stern's new Insider Podcast. Hosts debate whether Jersey Jack should switch playfield suppliers in their Drain It or Save It segment.

Key Claims

  • Bowen Kerins is working on a new game that will offer players multiple simultaneous options (modes, multiballs, other activities) unlike the linear design of Alice Cooper

    high confidence · Bowen Kerins interviewed at Brisbane Masters Pinball Championship about his next Spooky game design philosophy

  • Jersey Jack Willy Wonka machines are experiencing rippling playfields around posts (likely from post installation tightening) and chipping of clear coat, with a temporary washer kit fix issued

    high confidence · Ken Crone reporting on customer complaints about Mirko playfield defects; referenced as temporary fix from Jersey Jack

  • P-Rock was originally intended for the P3 platform but evolved into an unintended custom rules development platform that now supports 200-300 active developers

    high confidence · Ryan Claytor reporting on Multimorphic's P-Rock history per founder Gerry Stellenberg

  • Stern Pinball launched the Stern Insiders Pinball Podcast (SIP) hosted by Nate Shivers, free to Stern Insider Program members ($29-30/year enrollment)

    high confidence · Ken Crone reporting on Stern Pinball podcast debut with Zach Sharpe and Keith Elwin as initial guests

  • Spooky Pinball was the first manufacturer to pioneer pinball podcasting and has been doing so longer than any other manufacturer

    high confidence · Ken Crone statement comparing Spooky's podcast history to Stern's new launch

  • Similar playfield issues (rippling/chipping) occurred with Jersey Jack's Pirates of the Caribbean, suggesting unresolved manufacturing process problems

    medium confidence · Ken Crone discussing recurring nature of Mirko playfield defects across JJP titles

  • Beatles pinball machine (Stern) was priced too high and undersold because of pricing strategy rather than game quality

    medium confidence · Ken Crone opinion that lower pricing would have moved more quantity despite lower per-unit profit

  • Josh Kugler (American Pinball software director) was appearing at Helicon Brewing (Oakdale, Pennsylvania) on August 24th for meet-and-greet with free play Oktoberfest and Houdini

Notable Quotes

  • “One of the things that the next game is going to do pretty well, I feel, is to always give the player multiple different options of things they could be doing at any given time...There should always be a choice.”

    Bowen Kerins @ early segment - Brisbane Masters report — Design philosophy reveal for unreleased Spooky game; contrasts with linear mode-heavy design trend

  • “When a playfield ripples, that clear coat eventually can chip away. And now you're dealing with a whole other issue.”

    Ken Crone @ Jersey Jack discussion — Explains escalating concern about Mirko playfield manufacturing defect and long-term durability risk

  • “And fast forward about 10 years, and we literally have an online community of 200 to 300 people who are actively talking about their custom project.”

    Ryan Claytor (quoting Gerry Stellenberg) @ Multimorphic segment — Documents scale of P-Rock homebrew community growth from unintended platform

  • “If I had a play field that was deteriorating before my eyes and I put that money in, I'd expect something more than a washer fix if it was major damage to my play field.”

    Ken Crone @ Jersey Jack quality discussion — Critical stance on sufficiency of Jersey Jack's temporary fix for manufacturing defects

  • “I don't think it's really necessarily the fault of the manufacturer of the pinball machine. I think just the clear might be a little soft.”

    Bill Webb @ Playfield quality analysis — Attributes rippling issue to clear coat curing/flexibility rather than installation technique

  • “If I had to move the rig and go stream pinball at 7-Eleven, I would probably take a pass. That's how fed up I am with moving the rig.”

    Ken Crone @ streaming rig discussion — Comedic but reveals operational friction in portable streaming setup; motivates moving to wireless portable rigs

Entities

Bowen KerinspersonKen CronepersonBill WebbpersonJosh KuglerpersonNate ShiverspersonRyan ClaytorpersonZach SharpepersonKeith Elwin

Signals

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Bowen Kerins articulates next Spooky game will prioritize multiple simultaneous player options (modes, multiballs, other activities) over linear progression, contrasting with recent trend of mode-takeover design

    high · Direct quote: 'always give the player multiple different options of things they could be doing at any given time...There should always be a choice'

  • ?

    product_concern: Jersey Jack Willy Wonka machines experiencing rippling clear coat around posts and chipping paint, with Mirko playfield supplier implicated; temporary washer kit fix offered but raises durability concerns

    high · Ken reporting customer complaints of rippling formation around slingshot posts and paint chipping; history of similar issue on Pirates of the Caribbean suggests unresolved process problem

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Debate over root cause of Mirko playfield defects: unclear whether issue is overtightening by JJP assembly, insufficient clear coat cure time, or inherent material softness

    medium · Ken suggests post tightening; Bill suggests soft/incompletely cured clear coat; discussion indicates manufacturing process uncertainty across industry

  • ?

    business_signal: Multimorphic's P-Rock platform, originally unintended for market, evolved into primary revenue stream supporting 200-300 active custom developers and enabling partnerships (Dave and Buster's consideration)

    high · Ryan Claytor reporting on Gerry Stellenberg's account of P-Rock evolution from P3 controller to unintended custom rules market; positioned as revenue stream supplementing P3 sales

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.137

0:00
coming at you out of st charles illinois the special when lit pinball podcast starts now hey what's going on pinball land and welcome to episode 66 it's the special when lit pinball podcast and i'm ken cromwell i am bill webb so bill we've got some fun things that's discussed in the world of pinball today as we do every single week how's everything going with you Good, man. Crazy weekend, dude. In all honesty, kind of relieved it's Monday. Yeah, what did you have going on the weekend?
0:33
We had the daughter's friend birthday party, which was, you know, like 10 kids screaming all over the house. Yep. How old is your daughter now? Four? She'll be four. Yep. So, listed a pinball machine for sale, but we'll get into that later. Okay. Yeah, man. How about you? What's good in your hood? No, nothing, man. Just going through the motions. Got a little of this, a little bit of that, and that's all I've got to say about that, man. It's been a tiring couple of weeks, just a lot of things going on with work, with the full-time job. And trying to dedicate some time out of my day to play some pinball has been almost impossible. But it's okay, man. That's what makes playing on nights like these even more special. We've got Monday night is Pinball Night in America here in St. Charles. Well, and, dude, in a couple of weeks, it should slow down for both of us, I'm thinking. Not for you, man. It's going to pick up for you. You've got baby Bill coming. A couple of weeks. I don't know how that's going to happen. The weeks leading up to a baby are very stressful weeks, man. You know this. You have one. It's not like you're just sitting quietly waiting for anything to go down. You're getting all your last-minute stuff done, man. Dude, yeah, but if I told you what I'm worried about right now, you'd be like, okay, you're really not taking this all too seriously. No, well, let's hope Jamie's not listening today. Well, she'd have to learn how it works first. No, man, in all honesty, the baby room's set up. We already got clothes. We got diapers. We got the car seat. We got the baby brezza and all this other nonsense. and I'm sure there's someone sitting in a car seat right now. Yep, that's it. Then they're done that, right? Rock and roll. Yep. So we're good, though. Well, let's do this. Let's transition over into the pinball news. Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz.

high confidence · Kaz reporting American Pinball correspondent update; appearance includes prizes for high scores

person
Gerry Stellenbergperson
Spooky Pinballcompany
Stern Pinballcompany
Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
American Pinballcompany
Multimorphiccompany
Mirkocompany
Helicon Brewingvenue
Willy Wonkagame
Alice Coopergame
Beatlesgame
Oktoberfestgame
Houdinigame
Ghostbustersgame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame
Special When Litorganization
Brisbane Masters Pinball Championshipevent

market_signal: Beatles machine (Stern) underperformed sales despite strong gameplay; Ken argues higher price point limited volume sales even if per-unit margin was higher

medium · Ken stating Beatles pricing prevented broader market penetration; noted 1,964 planned production with unknown sell-through; opinion that lower pricing would have cleared inventory

  • ?

    community_signal: Stern launched Insiders Pinball Podcast following Spooky's earlier entry into manufacturer podcasting; industry consolidating around first-party content strategy

    high · Stern's SIP hosted by Nate Shivers, free to Insider members; Ken identifies Spooky as first manufacturer podcaster; reflects manufacturer engagement with community media

  • ?

    content_signal: Multiple pinball podcasts now competing for audience; Ken and Bill joke about saturation while acknowledging good content benefits industry

    high · Ken quipping 'we don't have enough pinball podcasts'; discussion of both SIP and Special When Lit as content alternatives; hosts position themselves as independent alternative to manufacturer content

  • ?

    venue_signal: Helicon Brewing (Oakdale, PA) identified as trendy high-status pinball venue known for early access to new machines; becoming pilgrimage destination for enthusiasts

    high · Ken expressing desire to visit Helicon despite scheduling conflicts; described as place 'that gets all the new machines super, super quick'; compared favorably to Sunshine Laundromat

  • ?

    operational_signal: Ken's resistance to moving existing streaming rig motivating investment in portable wireless rigs; operational burden affects content strategy

    high · Ken stating 'If I took care of the game, would you take care of the streaming rig? No.' and refusing $1000 to move rig; initiative to deploy 'movable rigs, the wireless rigs' to reduce friction

  • ?

    industry_signal: Jersey Jack's reliance on single playfield supplier (Mirko) creates vulnerability; industry discussion of supplier diversification as risk mitigation strategy

    medium · Drain It or Save It segment debating whether JJP should switch suppliers before next release; Ken suggesting multiple suppliers could differentiate quality and reduce risk

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Josh Kugler (American Pinball software director) participating in community appearances and public meet-and-greets, positioning himself as accessible designer

    high · Helicon Brewing event allowing community members to 'play against Josh' with prize incentives; reflects emerging designer accessibility trend

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern's Beatles produced in limited run (1,964 units planned) with uncertain sell-through; limited edition strategy may be constraining market demand

    medium · Ken questioning whether all 1,964 Beatles have sold out; speculation that pricing/production limits prevented broader market penetration

    • 2:09
    Hello from Dr. John in Australia, and I'm here at the Brisbane Masters Pinball Championship with one Bowen Kerens, who's come all the way over to give us this week's spooky pinball update. Bowen's been working hard on the latest Alice Cooper code update, which is going to be released soon. But I was just chatting to him about his next game that he's working on and just wondered how it would compare in theme to the Alice Cooper game. What do you have to say, Bowen? One of the things that is interesting about the Alice Cooper game is it's almost like a boss rush from a video game. You have these long battles with villains or monsters in this case, and you finish one, you make a short trek to get to the next one, and then you have to fight another boss.
    2:59
    It's kind of very intensive, but it also takes all the focus away from anything else you could be doing in the game. So one of the things that the next game is going to do pretty well, I feel, is to always give the player multiple different options of things they could be doing at any given time. Some of which might be maybe mows or multi-balls or other things. There should always be a choice. And Alice Cooper, there are choices. You could play Crypts, for example, and attach it to a mode, but the choices there are relatively limited compared to what they might be on a more flexible game. Like Adam's Family Customized, one where it's basically, do whatever you want and we'll pay you for it. And I've always really enjoyed that. But now we're We're in sort of an era where modes and adventures are deepened, and games end up more like Indiana Jones, where you play your mission, you play your mode, and it takes over the game, basically. So we don't want that to happen, necessarily. So there will be other things the player can be doing, but you don't not want that necessarily either, because you want the player to feel like something interesting happened and the game state changed and that they caused it. Good. Yeah. Wonderfully cryptic, but very interesting to work out. That's it. All right. Thanks again. We'll get you back on with the competition. Thanks a lot. Bye-bye. Hey, this is Kaz, your special when lit American Pinball correspondent. Josh Kugler, the director of software engineering at American Pinball, will be stopping by Helicon Brewing in Oakdale, Pennsylvania, outside of Pittsburgh on Saturday, August 24th from 7 to 10 p.m. both Oktoberfest and Houdini will be on free play so come play against Josh and if you can beat him you'll win some American Pinball prizes high score on Houdini gets you an autographed Translight get the high score on Oktoberfest and it will get you an autographed Stein beer not included other swag will be available as well so go to Helicon Brewing or American Pinball's Facebook page for more info Hope everyone has a great time Saturday night. For American Pinball, this is Brian Kosner.
    5:38
    like Bride of Pinbot 2.0 from Dutch Pinball or Cactus Canyon Continued by Eric Priepke. But believe it or not, this was not the original intent for the P-Rock board set. It was actually intended to be the board set for the P3. But as company founder Jerry Stellenberg tells it, People got a hold of the P-Rock and they saw the potential to write custom rules for their existing games. I'll wager everyone listening to this podcast could easily name a handful of custom builds they've played at shows. But thinking back just a few years, there was essentially no custom pinball development community in 2009. And fast forward about 10 years, and we literally have an online community of 200 to 300 people who are actively talking about their custom project. So the reason I'm highlighting Multimorphic's P-Rock is actually threefold. One, I'd like to make people aware of the diversity of product that Multimorphic offers. Two, I think it's an interesting part of the company's history that the most widely used custom pinball controller on the market today was never intended to be what it has become. And finally, I'll occasionally hear people curious about the financial health of Multimorphic and wanted to spotlight some additional revenue streams that supplement sales of the P3. I'm Ryan Claytor, your Multimorphic correspondent. Stay innovative. As we transition over to Jersey Jack Pinball, there's been a growing amount of concern over some of the pinball play fields that have come out of Jersey Jack Pinball, Willy Wonka Standard and Limited Editions. Customers are reporting rippling and chipping of those Mirko play fields. If you've experienced any of this, you want to contact your distributor, where Jersey Jack Pinball has issued a temporary fix. And Stern Pinball throws their hat in the ring with a new podcast, the Stern Insiders Pinball Podcast, Sip for Short, hosted by Nate Shivers, debuted this week with interviews of Zach Sharp and Keith Elwin. Covering Jersey Jack pinball and Stern pinball this week, I'm your correspondent, Ken Cromwell. Hey, it's me again. Wow. Hey, I'm back. I was corresponding. I was on location. Interesting that it sounds like Bowen is taking an approach to code that appeals to more than one type of person. So instead of something linear, instead of something that's lacking modes, it looks like he's throwing in a little bit of everything to appeal to more than one type of person, which I think is smart. Do you think it can be implemented well? I'm sure it could. I'm curious to see it. I mean, he's not a novice by any means. So, I mean, I look forward to seeing what he comes up with. No, no, he's not a novice, but I'm just thinking it's like it's hard to get one element of code correct. So to kind of take a different approach or multiple approaches, I wonder if that could lead to everything being a little bit watered down. Or is it that everything could be epic? You know what I mean? I mean, Bowen knows what he's doing. You know, I'm not counting anyone out. So I'm just curious to see now. So Kaz was talking about Josh Cougar going to Helicon Brewing. And I've got to be honest with you. I've heard a lot about Helicon. Have you heard about, do you know what this place is? No. Okay. So Helicon Brewing is like the place that gets all the new machines like super, super quick. Okay. So, I mean, obviously it's like, it's kind of like a sunshine or. Yeah. It's a brewery. Exactly. But they're getting everything quick. Now it's just become so trendy to go to Helicon. I am officially asking you, Bill, if we should go to Helicon. I would like to go to Helicon. Where is it at?
    8:54
    There for the win. Bill, jump can. No, I think it was Pennsylvania, right? Did I hear it incorrectly? Pennsylvania isn't too bad. I might be in, but, dude, right now the schedule is just a little too tight for a lot of this stuff, man. Oh, you're going to have to make a decision. It's got to have to be pinball or the baby. Or family. Right. Pinball. Okay. So when are we going to go to Helicon? Silly choice is that. Yeah. How about in the spring? Yeah, maybe. I'd like to go sooner than that. Actually, I don't want to drive there, but I'd like to go there. I'd like to somehow get there. I'd like to experience a Helicon. I'd like to experience a Sunshine Laundromat. I mean, we've got Logan out here, Logan Arcade, in kind of our backyard here in Chicago, and you've got headquarters out here. I mean, you've got Level 257, which I don't even think is called that anymore, right? I don't think so. It's something else. So we've got a lot of prominent pinball locations here, but I want to kind of branch out a little bit, and I want to go to Helicon. You know what? Helicon sounds cool. I'd love to do Sunshine. I would love to do that, too. Yeah, there's a few others that sound really cool that I would like to do. But you couldn't make that drive, dude. I'd have to, like, tase you. I've driven through there before. Because, believe it or not, Bill, I've driven to Florida and back multiple times, and I once drove to New York City. So, like, I had to drive through Pennsylvania. So I'm capable of doing it. Yes. Okay. Yes. And the deep tunnels. Yes. Okay. I'm capable of it. I can see you. And the cliffs as you're going through. like you're driving on the edge of the cliff it seems like when you go through pennsylvania like around uh hershey and whatnot that's uh that's that's mrs penn and uh dr penn territory out there i think right yeah but i don't think those cliffs are as bad as like asheville north carolina hey i don't know man if there's a listener that's been through both please let me know um but i think asheville is probably worse than going through uh pennsylvania didn't take an inch all i know is i want to go to helicon and i'd like to figure out a way to get there and i'd like to stay there for a day or two and then come back and talk about it on the podcast absolutely All right, we'll see if we can work that out. We have also, Ryan Claytor's touched on the fact that really P-Rock is something that evolved into something it wasn't intended to be. And when you think about it right now, because of that, it probably saved or at least extended the longevity of the company, right? Yeah. So by people getting in on these P-Rock boards and wanting to either redo a rule set on an existing pinball machine or coming up with their own rule set for their own homebrew. And I think that's where this came into market at a great time, right? Because homebrew is hot. I don't think it could have came at a better time. It's been hot, but did it come at a better time, or did this kind of allow homebrew to evolve? You know what I mean? You got a lot of different collaborators and different Interesting take I think you right dude I think that this really made it all possible but it not just the homebrew people that are using these board sets right manufacturers yeah yeah so i mean it i don know i you you got a hand at the jerry whether he stumbled into like another source of revenue on on accident or if it was something in the back of his mind it's allowed them now to get a machine into dave and buster's and i know that there's a lot of hope that there will be an evolution process from there as well whereas more of these machines can get in opening up some more doors to Dave and Buster's and maybe other places. We'll see what happens. But, I mean, again, interesting story. So I appreciated Ryan sharing that with us. Dude, I would love to stream a pinball machine from a 7-Eleven. That would be pretty cool, man. If we were to stream someplace. And it would have to be a 7-Eleven that sold liquor. Yes. You know what I mean? Because you need to grab a 40 out of the fridge. Absolutely. And brown paper bag that sucker, dude, and be all in. That would be pretty awesome. You know what would be real legit, dude? Some Mad Dog 2020. Oh, God, that's the liquid freaking cocaine of our time. Oh, it is, dude. It's terrible. But, dude, think about that. Throwing down on like a... Nah, I don't want to think about that. Okay, we won't have to think about the liquor. You lost me at the Mad Dog 2020. I'm going to be honest with you, man. That's not a good... Nah, that's not good. Mad Dog 2020? I'm not saying that's good, dude. That's a throwback, though. Oh, jeez. That's like drinking Ice House or Bud Ice. Some Natty Light. Oh, man. Or some Keystone.
    12:43
    Keystone. Some Bush. Oh, well, you can still get Bush Light. Yeah. When I was living in Florida, Bush Light was like, you could get like a 30-pack of cans for like $7 or $8. Yeah. It was cheaper than water. Yeah, it literally was cheaper than water. What's the other one, dude? Old Milwaukee. Well, yeah, I think you can still get Old Milwaukee. Yeah. You can still get Bush. Some of these beers are still out there. And for those of you that are underage, we don't condone drinking. This is something that you want to experience in a bad way when you're over 21. Yes. So that's the way to do it. So, yes, dude, we need to stream. 7-Eleven. We should set up a stream where we stream from a 7-Eleven, either a new game or an old game, dude. Well, maybe we might have to bring our own pinball machine into the 7-Eleven. Listen, tell me you wouldn't do that just for that experience. I would absolutely do it if I didn't have to move the streaming rig. If I took care of the game, would you take care of the streaming rig? No. I would rather take care of the game. A little transparency from Ken right here. No, I hate moving the streaming rig. That's why we're doing these D'Angelo movable rigs, the wireless rigs, because I'm so sick. I've moved this rig, and for those of you that aren't familiar, pinball streaming is when you set up a bunch of cameras and you film pinball being played and you live broadcast it over the Internet or you record it for prosperity's sake. But the effort that's involved with us moving our particular rig, it's just ours, and I just don't like it. So, yeah. I really don't like it, dude. If someone said I'd give you $1,000 to move the rig and go stream pinball at 7-Eleven, I would probably take a pass. That's how fed up I am with moving the rig. I'm just letting you know. Wow, okay. Maybe we're not streaming at 7-Eleven. Me calling in a favor to Ken saying, hey, listen, dude, we're going to stream some Monster Bash and a laundromat. We'll double down on that. You're out. Yes, but when we get the, and it's nothing against you, it's just I would leave the rig at 7-Eleven because I wouldn't want to break it down again and bring it back home. It would be a disposable rig. You just put it on Facebook, man, Marketplace. Come pick up all this video equipment for $300. When we get the portable rig up, because there's a couple locations close to here that we discussed streaming from, and it would be fun to do, and it's something we never thought we were going to stream on location because we like the comfort of our own little studio. But with the portable rig, we can absolutely do that and have some fun. And late breaking news, there is a Beatles locally on location. Where is the Beatles at? Bannerman's in Bartlett, Illinois. Where's that? 59 and Stearns. Oh, they have a Beatles there, huh? They have a Beatles there. Do they have other machines too? No, they just normally keep one. And they went all in with Beatles, huh? Yeah. Do you know anybody there?
    15:10
    No. All right. Well, we should... But you don't want to stream from location. No, but I'd like to know what I'm missing at the very least. I'll go play it. I'd like to play Beatles. Beatles, you know, for those of you that haven't gotten on Beatles, it's a fun pinball machine, and it's largely underrated for people that have not played the game. But once you kind of play it and you get involved, it's actually a really great game. I still... I think it's a good experience. Just not in alignment with the price of it still. I still think that they would have sold a lot more if they priced it a little less. They may not – and when I say they, I say Stern Pinball or distributors. They may not have made the profit on each individual machine, but the amount, the quantity that would have been moved would have solved two problems because they would have – at some point, probably all sold out. And any profit you lost individually, you would have made up in quantity. And I can only assume that that would – even if it was a break-even point, you moved that inventory. I don't know what Stern has made, or I think they said they were going to make 1,964 of them. I don't know how many have sold. Maybe they've all sold out. From what I understand, they have not. Jersey Jack Pinball, right? So we've been advocates of this pinball company, and we've been supporters of Jack and his products, and we've been owners and buyers of Jersey Jack Pinball machines. and I'm also the guy that is extremely picky and judgmental on a pinball play field. So what we're hearing now are on some of these Wonkas, right? And I love Willy Wonka. Everybody knows I love this pin. It's probably my favorite pinball machine of all time is Willy Wonka. And to hear that there's some play field issues, it's not shocking to me, right? Because you know that every company goes through a play field issue at some point. Yeah. Nothing's infallible in life, though. No, no. But we're hearing, you know, rippling play fields. And when I say rippling, it's around like posts, you know, for instance, say around the slingshots when the posts have tightened down. The clear coat seems to kind of come up in like a ripple formation, like you dropped an envision dropping a pebble into a pond. And that initial ripple that comes out from the pebble, that's kind of what you're seeing around the post. So the question is, is this an issue with Mirko, who is the playfield manufacturer, because they screen print the playfields or digitally print the playfields and then they clear coat the playfields? Or is it an issue with Jersey Jack Pinball, where when they're doing the installation of these posts, they are overtightening the posts and it's causing the clear to to ripple around the post? I don't know what is going on. I don't know that Mirko has commented publicly on those that have reached out to him regarding the playfields. I do know this. It does concern me only because when a playfield ripples, that clear coat eventually can ship away. And now you're dealing with a whole other issue. So there is a fix, right, that is being offered where they're going to send you out this washer kit that kind of goes over the ripples and gets everything back where it's supposed to be. Which I look at that as kind of like a Cliffy set, in all honesty. Yeah, it's kind of like a Band-Aid on an existing problem. But to Jersey Jack's credit, they're not just pretending, hey, that's just acceptable and that's how you're going to have to deal with it. But we also know that this was a concern that was happening with Pirates of the Caribbean. And to their understanding that they had worked this out and there wasn't going to be an issue moving forward. So now when we see this again coming up on the next game, it makes you wonder what is being done to not correct the existing issues with washer kits. but what is being done to try to make sure this is corrected? What are the preventative measures? Yeah. Right. And I'm not sure what those are. I mean, any feelings on this, any initial gut feelings? I have thoughts on this man. And, and you know, all right. So I use an impact gun on everything, put legs on, put screws on a game. And what's an impact gun just for somebody that doesn't. Okay. So that's a drill that has an impact feature instead of the, the drill Chuck. Yeah. So just, uh, what's the drill Chuck? I'm just kidding. Bill. If you don't know, I'm going to start up my own podcast of general tool knowledge 101.
    19:15
    You know what? Pinball tools for dummies would not be a horrible segment. We'll have to. All right. Okay. So I used the set impact to put the posts on or anything else, and I've never cracked or rippled or done any of these things that I'm seeing. So I don't think it's really necessarily the fault of the manufacturer of the pinball machine. I think just the clear might be a little soft. Yeah. I'm wondering, because I don't know a whole lot about the clear coating process, and depending on who you ask, you're going to get a lot of different ways that it's described. As far as – and my thing right now is like, is cure time – is it possible that maybe because they are getting these play fields out as quickly as possible so that these machines can be assembled, that maybe the clear – this particular type of clear coat that's being used requires more of a curing time? And then by the time it gets to the manufacturer of the pinball machine, Jersey Jack, and regardless of how much they tighten it, the clear is just still not fully cured or it's not flexible. Or maybe it's just the solution where it is a flexible, bendable clear, and that's always going to be happening. Or maybe there's an adhesion problem with it staying on the ink that's adhered to the wood. I mean, there's a lot of different factors that can be considered. I don't think it's there, though, because, dude, if you see people that play through that, You see chips of paint coming off. So I don't think it's an adhesion problem. Well, the chips of paint coming off sounds like it's an adhesion problem with maybe the paint that's on the play field. No, no, no. It's paint and, like, wood underneath. Right. So there's something that's not making sense. And I really hope that, you know, could this delay the collector's editions? Because, I mean, listen, you don't want to have play fields going out that you know are going to be prone to issues. And it's the worst possible scenario. So how Jersey Jack handles this is going to be very interesting for me going forward. Because I'll be honest with you, if I had a play field that was deteriorating before my eyes and I put that money in, I'd expect something more than a washer fix if it was major damage to my play field. Well, here, let's be honest. Dude, you had a Ghostbusters, right? What happened to your Ghostbusters? I don't know. What happened to my Ghostbusters? Didn't you have to get a new play field for it? No. Oh. No. I did have, around the time of Ghostbusters, there was ghosting going on, but I didn't have ghosting going on on my playfield. Yeah. Okay, I thought you were one of the people I knew that had a Ghostbusters situation. No, no, no. But now to Stern's credit, and I don't want to compare the manufacturers because I don't think it's fair to do so. No, everyone handles things in their own way. For sure. But I know that Stern did send out fully populated playfields for the ghosting. Now, the ghosting on the inserts on a series of certain titles that had come out consecutively over the course of like a year or whatever it was, seven months, had the same issue. So, I mean, here we are with Jersey Jack dealing with an issue with Mirko. Now, is it the end of the world? Absolutely not. I mean, because the play fields are playable and the gameplay is fine. It's just for somebody that is, I guess, twofold. Somebody that's a nitpicker like I am with the play field. And let's be honest, dude, you are brutal. I'm brutal. I don't want to see it. I don't want to see stuff coming up. I don't want to see, not on a new game I just don't want to see it You hope it doesn't go across to the next title We'll see what happens I've had a few service issues with some Jersey Jack machines That I had owned over the past And to their credit They corrected every single last one of them I mean, even when I thought I was being a little bit overly Sensitive on something I was taken care of And this was years ago And that was with Dialed In and that was with Hobbit and everything like that So we'll see what happens and I want to continue to back up the company and I hoping that they do the right thing and they get it figured out Yeah I don think they leave people high and dry though No no I think they a good company that way We did just mention Stern Pinball. So Stern jumps into the pinball podcasting ring because we don't have enough pinball podcasts. No. Well, this is our last episode, too, though. Right, because with the Stern Insider Program, there's really no use for us to ever do a podcast again, and we'll let Stern cover that. Just kidding, guys. Sorry. We're just joking. So it's interesting because Nate Shivers is the host of that Pinball Podcast, and it's for the Stern Insiders. Now, to become a Stern Insider, you can sign up on the website to become an insider. But if you want inside access, you can pay an additional amount. It's like $29, $30 for the year. You get a little swag kit, and then you get kind of private webinars and updates and this sort of thing. Now, the podcast, they're making free for everybody that's enrolled in the Stern Insider Program. Have you had a chance to listen to the episode with Zach Sharp and with Keith Elwin, hosted by Nate Shivers? I have not yet. Okay. And that's literally because it's been kind of crazy. So I want to have a good solid hour or two to sit down and actually listen to everything and not be – Well, it's not – I don't think it's that long. Oh, well. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, but you know what, though? With jumping around and everything that's been kind of going on, I wasn't in a great mindset to actually sit down and listen. That's something that warrants your full attention and shouldn't be listened to in the background. I mean, some podcasts that I know I listen to are kind of background noise than anything else. And this is one that I didn't want to dismiss or not give it its full attention. Well, it's the second manufacturer that I know of of pinball that have jumped in the ring with a pinball podcast. Can you name the first one? Spooky. That's right, Spooky. So Spooky pioneered pinball podcasting. I think in general they've been podcasting probably the longest out of anybody that I know that's pinball podcasting. So we wish Stern Pinball and Nate Shivers the best of luck with the podcast. and we hope that they provide good content because good content is good for pinball, and we enjoy listening to it. So good luck to you guys. Absolutely. You want to play Drain It or Save It? I would like to. Let's do it.
    24:53
    It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com, offering you custom, quality, playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S. Visit Lermods.com today. Hey, Bill, first item up on the docket for Drain It or Save It this week. If we're in agreement with something, we will save it. But if we're in disagreement, we will drain it. We each have our own opinions. And the first one is this. Jersey Jack Pinball will switch their playfield supplier before their next release. Bill, drain it or save it.
    25:26
    That's a save. I would like to see them switch. Wow. Okay. All right, so I have to give a little back story. So I've heard different conflicting things about this particular manufacturer, but at the same token, I've heard a lot about everything. But you know what? I believe in giving everybody a fair shot and kind of breaking up your suppliers, where you're getting stuff from. Yeah. Because then at least you can differentiate which ones are pulling through and which ones are kind of dropping the ball on stuff. So you're suggesting maybe having multiple suppliers of play fields in case one is having an issue, you can throw business predominantly to another side. Interesting take. Yeah, you know what? I think I'm going to have to save this also. So it's not that I want to see Jersey Jack Pinball take business away from Mirko, but I think they have to get on the same page. And if it's just something that can't be figured out, I mean, what other option do you really have than to give somebody another chance to kind of jump into the ring and provide playfields? So there are other playfield manufacturers. We all know this. Even bringing it in-house is something that can be considered. I probably think that manufacturing and clear-coating playfields is somewhat of a specialized skill. that somebody's not just going to start up and doing. Otherwise, we wouldn't be having these issues. I'm hoping the best for Mirko, and I'm hoping the best for Jersey Jack, and I hope that they can retain a partnership. But, yeah, I think it's a real possibility that they have to switch a playfield supplier if this isn't going to be corrected. That's how Williams did it back in the day. Yeah, you never know. And there's a couple of suppliers in Germany that I've seen some of their work, and I have one of their playfields. I'm not going to start spreading that information out because that's not my place. But I've seen some other stuff. Out of pinball manufacturers that are not popular that have the most gorgeous play fields I think I've seen. Yeah, that's good. So, perfect. So we're both saving that one. We are both going to save it. All right, so number two. Now, we know who Chuck Emery is. Now, he's the owner of Spooky Pinball, right? Yes. Now, his son, Bug, has been working there for a while, and he also co-hosts the Spooky Pinball podcast. Bug does with his dad, Charlie, Chuck. Let me ask you this, Bill. Train it or save it. bug charlie's son is going to design spooky's next game after scott denisi's number two and when i say number two i meant his number two effort oh okay not him taking a bathroom break after uh lunch i get it right um as soon as i said it i'm like god that probably needs to be edited up a little bit to sound a little bit better but no we have kids man this is this is real world problems we're talking about here so after scott denisi's second pin did we see bug in the rotation for a new fresh designer over at Spooky. Drain it or save it, Bill? I think save it. I think everyone deserves a shot. Save it. Yeah. You know, we'll see what this kid can pull. Well, deserving a shot and being qualified to do a pinball play field design is like pretty, I don't know. I mean, that's not, I don't know that that's something you're just like, hey, just give it a try. We're going to make the game. But that being said, I also save this. I think that Bug probably is the guy that's been, that's got a lot of experience in the background watching these guys, watching like a Scott Denise, watching his dad go through the steps of designing a pinball machine. Working on the line assembling machines. Absolutely. So he kind of knows what goes into it. So I'm going to save it. I hope that I would love to see another designer come in and give everybody a little bit of a... Run for the money, man. Yeah, run for the money and be able to find another designer that appeals to you. So I'm also going to save that. And then finally, number three, actually, and this came from a conversation that I had today with Dennis Creasel of the Eclectic Gamers podcast. Our buddy Dennis. And co-host of this week in pinball podcast. And he said he asked this for a drain it or save it after I asked him for one. I was like, look, Dennis, give me a drain it or save it. And this is what he decided on. And it's this drain it or save it bill deciding to announce a limited run on a game that originally wasn't limited. And he cites Cosmic Carnival, America's Most Haunted, reducing the mafia from a limited of 100 to a limit of 20. companies that release a pinball machine and then after lack of sales announce it as limited drain it or save it that's such a such a two-sided sword i am going to drain it oh drain it why is that so i'm gonna drain that because i don't like the fact of people coming in and saying they're gonna do something or not just like when you say you're gonna make a run of LE Games and you go from 100 to 300. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Interesting take, yeah. I understand why some of these boutique manufacturers are dwindling the numbers down so they can bring up the scarcity of the product that they have to sell the ones that they've already made. Which I don't think is a great plan. I could see that maybe being influential. So I don't like it. That's just my take on it. No, fair enough. So you're going to drain it? I am going to drain it. Okay. I'm going to save it. And the reason that I'm going to save it is because I think when a pin is being sold, and for whatever reason, whether it be a difficult challenge to manufacture or the want is not there for that pinball machine, I think making it a limited release publicly does one of two things. It lets everybody know that, hey, we realize that we're not going to move as many of these as we intended, so we're just going to limit the run. And then number two, it does create a level of people that want something that's limited. So you would hope that all those machines sell out because they are then limited, and it gives the manufacturer an opportunity to go learn from their mistakes and get into a second pinball machine. So where it's not ideal, I don't see the harm in it, and I would hope that at some point it allows the manufacturer to carry on with a second release. What I don't want to see, and actually, let's wrap this up. So for Drained or Saved this week, brought to you by LearnMods.com, Jersey Jack Pinball switching playfield suppliers for the next release. Myself and Bill believe that that is potentially true, and we're going to save it. Charlie's son, Bug, is going to design Spooky Pinball's next game after Denise, number two. We both saved that. And then deciding to announce a limited run on a game that originally was not limited, Bill drained it, I saved it, and that's this week's edition of Drain It or Save It by LearnMods.com.
    31:33
    So, Bill, there was something that was going on this week that was, I want to say, bothering you a little bit because you have been buying and selling pins lately like a madman. And the one term that I've heard you throw around more times than once is a tire kicker. And that's with your ads. A few. So what's going on with the tire kickers kicking your tires when you're selling pinball machines, Bill? I don't understand it. So I'm trying to move, well, let me rephrase this. I was trying to move Jurassic Park, the original 1993 version, right? Listed on Pinside, really didn't get a whole lot of hits. It needs a little bit of work, but it's already been shopped. The top side of the play field, T-Rex works, all LED converted, including the flashers. So, I mean, I have dumped some money in this game. New power supply, new Fliptronics board in there. Did you peel the side art off to put on your new Jurassic Park? Not yet. Okay. But, you know, it was close. I got you. So, you know, and full disclosure, took probably like 30 pictures and posted them on said game on Pinside. Facebook would only let me do 20, made sure to show scoops, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And then you're getting people, I'll offer you a 2,200.
    32:49
    And what was your list price? $2,700. Okay, so $500 discrepancy in what they valued the machine at. Well, yeah, I mean, that's a 20% hit. I mean, this isn't like a used car. Well, I mean, it kind of is. Yeah, right. So what is it? Did it offend you? So frustrating. Did the offer offend you as if it was an insult of your intelligence that you might accept the offer? Or what was it about the $2,200 offer? Because it is a low offer, but I don't know that it's a disrespectful offer. It's not completely disrespectful. It wasn't $1,200. Now, that would have been disrespectful. Well, yeah, it would have been. And I would have had more vocal things to say. I would have brought out the bleep effect. Yeah, so just the manner in which it was carried. Well, you know, it's got this, this, and this wrong. well, yeah, but they're selling for $3,300 to $3,500. What I'm asking is not that crazy for the – So you kind of already had a price to move. I think – yeah, I thought so. Honestly, it moved an hour later. So that guy comes in with the offer, and then did you counter-offer? I didn't counter-offer. I just said, listen, it's your opinion. I don't think – whatever you're going to offer, that's fine, just whatever. And I know some people that took offense to his offer.
    34:05
    But it's for sale, not on sale. I don't have a drug addiction. I'm not trying to move this thing for my next score of drugs. The thing that drives me crazy is that when you in a negotiation with somebody and from my end if I a seller okay and somebody replies to an ad and they make an offer Now, I'm used to the lowball offer, and I think what a lot of people do with the lowball offer is it's to open up a line of communication, and it allows me to counteroffer. But because the offer is so low, they anticipate me to kind of meet them halfway in the middle just to see how far they can get me down. I don't even acknowledge that. Right. Guess what? I don't need this pen to sell for me to continue living my life. I'm the same way. I will not entertain a low ball offer. I'll say, well, thanks for your interest, but I'm going to take a pass. And that just shuts that down right away. And then they come back. And then they come back, well, what's the lowest you'll take for it? And then I'll come back and say, well, what's the most you're going to pay for it? And it's like, well, why did you ask me that? It's like, well, you see how this whole thing works. It doesn't make any sense. Like, this is what it's like. You're more than welcome to make an offer. Now, the stereotypical tire kicker is somebody that will negotiate a price that you can both agree on, and then they still don't have the money to buy it anyways because they just wanted to go through the negotiation with you. And then when you agree on a price, they're like, oh, I did not anticipate that. You take it. I don't have the money. Yeah. That upsets me. That was freaking Tuesday. Okay, so this is another tiny tale of Bill's sales. Right. So Tuesday, there was a gentleman that wanted a Demolition Man a couple months ago. He was local. Sent him a message, hey, I got a real, real clean one. I'm shopping it now, but if you're interested, I might be willing to part with it because there's something else I want at the time. Forty days later, he responds to the ad, or the response. It says, hey, yeah, I'm still looking. Forty days? Just 40 days. That's it. The game was already shopped and playing. The game's on its fourth owner. Yeah. So I'm like, listen, I'm not getting rid of the game right now, but if I ever do, I'll let you know. So last Tuesday, I'm like, hey, you know, maybe it's time to switch it up. So I sent him a message saying, you know, I'll list it. Real clean demo, man. I mean, you've seen this demo, man. So, I mean, how. Yeah, no, it was a really nice demo, man. Okay, it's the nicest one I think I've seen. And matching number boards. Right. All right, which is like incredible to find something like that. It appeals to a certain collector for sure. Correct. Yeah. Biggest downfall is the handles need to get re-chromed. Not a big deal. It's not play field issues. It's not cabinet issues. It's nothing crazy. So what happened with the potential buyer? So I go $3,300, you know, OBO.
    36:44
    And he responds, well, I think that's really way overpriced. I go, well, you know, I put our best offer. I went a little high because I kind of have a feeling of where this is going to go. You're letting somebody negotiate down a little bit. Yeah, you know. Absolutely. You want to take, you know, 20% off of $3,000? Okay, well, you know. Yeah. No, actually, 10% off of $3,000, we could probably play that game. And he's like, well, for $3,200, you should have a color DMD, and the handle should be re-chromed, this, that, and the other. I'm like, oh, okay, so you want a new in-box Demoman experience with a color DMD for that price. I get it now. So just out of poops and grins, I send him a message back. So what do you think my game is worth then? He goes, I don't know, man, $26, $27, $28, just depending on condition. Okay. You've seen the fluorescent orange, dude. That's not even faded or nothing. I mean, it's a really nice example. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, I think that's a little too low. Then I get a message coming back a day later. Well, that's okay because, you know, I don't have the money to buy it right now anyway. So then why did you ask me for 30 pictures of a pinball machine that you have no money to purchase? I do not know. And I've said this before. That would be like me going to the yacht dealership and shopping around. Specking out a boat. Right. Yeah. Finding one that I liked, taking the salesman's time, asking a bunch of questions about it, negotiating a deal that I think is fair, and then telling him, I don't have the money, but I'm going to play the lottery tonight.
    38:16
    And there's a chance I'm going to win. And if I do, I'm going to come back. I'm going to buy this from you. Yeah. It's like, the other thing is this. And I don't know. I think some people just like to talk in general. And talking about prices for sale ads is just one way for them to communicate with people. And, you know, is that great? Is that not great? I don't have any idea, but most people are busy, and you want to entertain serious offers and people that are in line where they can actually buy your game. And I don't mind talking pinball if they were to say, hey, listen, I'm not buying your game. I don't either, but not my for-sale ad. Message me privately, and I'll be your buddy. Let's have a conversation. But some of these prices – Don't negotiate me down and then say you don't have the money. Well, dude, here, the best one is on Jurassic Park. It saw water on the head at the back, right? Like one straight line, like there was a drip on it from a ceiling, whatever, okay? Yeah. No other identifying water issues. Just something spilled on it or whatever on the head. Made sure to clearly post that in a picture. He goes, oh, that game was in a flood, this, that, and the other. I go, listen, dude, I didn't pull this out of a flood. I have a game like that that I've seen that I could show you pictures of that was out of a flood. I don't post pictures of those games because I don't want to cue up all the people that are hurt that a game didn't survive and they cue up the Sarah McLachlan. Right. And, you know, it's the biggest travesty. That sucks, obviously, but we don't want to see that. So how you come to these conclusions was just mind-boggling. And I was like, mm-hmm. So the tire kicker is not the guy for you. You don't like the tire. I don't know that anybody likes the tire kickers. If you think that you're a tire kicker, get help today. Because pinball is not the place that you want to be kicking the tires on. And I don't mind a tire kicker that comes out and looks at something and then that's not their game. I don't mind that. Oh, that's not a tire kicker. That's somebody that has intent to buy a game and they just realize it wasn't. A tire kicker is somebody that knows they're not going to come out and buy your game, but they want to come over and flip it and have a conversation. And crap on it. And then leave. Right. And it's like, that's kicking the tires. I don't dig that. I love that. Oh, this game will never sell. Thank you very much. Yes, yes, yes. Guess what? I'm not in a position where it matters if it sells or not. Buying and selling anything, especially pinball, I mean, and everything's so subjective, too, with the way that you grade a machine and what you think the play field condition is and the cabinet condition is and somebody that's used to getting a lot of torn up games that are routed, when they see something that's halfway decent, it's mint condition to them because their standards have been lowered. And I'm just the complete opposite. I look at something that is to most impeccable condition, and I'll freak out over something. You can pair off a new inbox. There's been new inboxes that have come out where I was like, oh, man, I don't like the registration on this play field. I can see some key lining over here. And you've got really set games for that. Yeah, absolutely I have. And it's just how I collect, and maybe it's the best that I can. And there's nothing wrong with that. I think at some point, one of two things will happen. And I will either, and I think it would have happened by now if I was going to kind of lower my standards and just play these games and I don't care about everything. A big part of me for collecting and buying is something that is a pristine, to use your term, like a show pony example of a game. And I like knowing that I have like a pristine example of something. And where that's not always going to pan out like my keeper games, I think just like you, you want the best example that you can find. Before we end this episode, Bill, I wanted to mention a couple people that have been lying heavily on my mind lately. And that is, first, I wanted to talk about Jason and Matt from the Slap Save Pinball podcast. They're currently raising funds with the sale of a pinball machine to donate a machine to Project Pinball, which will be put into a children's hospital in the St. Louis area. So I wanted to give special mention to those guys. I think it's very commendable. For those of you that don't know how to contact them, look up Slap Save Pinball podcast. It's Jason Fowler. It's Matt Kanin. They're doing everything on the up and up. And if you have something that you want to do, maybe you're not going to bid on this Gorgar pinball machine that they're auctioning off and giving proceeds to help fund that machine. But maybe you want to go ahead and make a charitable donation on their behalf or to the hospital. And you can reach out to those guys, and they can tell you how to do that. And they are legit guys. Yeah, they're absolutely legit guys. Stand-up guys. Yeah. Absolutely. So great job, guys. Secondly, Jack Danger, our buddy Jack Deadflip from Deadflip Pinball Streaming. Now, he's been looking for somebody to pick up his show called Danger Games. Now, if you go to Dead Flip Pinball Streaming, the Facebook page, you can see the promo that he's kind of cut and he's uploaded there. And the interesting thing about this is I think that it's something that would appeal to a lot of us. It appeals to me. And I'm hoping that this gains some traction. And I hope that Jack does have somebody that can grab that show and take him someplace where he needs to be. He's involved in so many different things. He is. I think it would be a great show. The one thing that I'm noticing with Jack is that his creativity, and this is not a bad thing I'm saying, his creativity is beyond his finances as far as him doing these things by himself. Because it's, I mean, you're talking about a full studio produced show. You're talking about something that most people aren't going to be able to fund themselves. I think he's got the credibility in the industry. And I think that he's shown over the course of time that he can go ahead and put forth the effort into something and make it perfect or as perfect and entertaining as possible. and I think that somebody really needs to get consideration to picking up this show. The show is Danger Games. Go to Dead Flip Pinball Streaming, and if you haven't liked him or subscribed to his page, please go ahead and do so, and let's support him. Let's get him up and running with Danger Games because I want to see it on a channel near me. Absolutely. And then finally, I wanted to thank Dr. John, Ryan Claytor, and Brian Cosner. Those are our special and lit correspondents. Thank you, guys. You guys are the best. We really, really appreciate it. I want to say thanks to Rob and Kim at LearnMods.com. Great mods over there. I'm telling you guys, if you've got a Wonka and you've got that standard edition and you're just kind of upset that you don't have that Wonka Vader in the upper left-hand corner that the LE has, look at the Wonka Vader mod that they have for sale over there. It's killer. It's interactive. And tell them that Ken and Bill sent you. Now, on some of these mods, you can enter the coupon code. It's SWL10. SWL is for Special Inlet 10. You can get 10% off your order, and they'll ship it off for you. Take a discount on our behalf. Absolutely. If you don't mind. We don't get kickbacks for that. So they already sponsor our segment. So we're just helping them out. Oh, you don't. As they're helping us out. No. I'm kidding. Oh, is that what's going on? Is that why you're driving a new car every couple weeks? All those mods being sold? No, it's all the pinball machines I sell at a discount. There was a topic we didn't get to tonight, and I wanted to make a special mention because I think we're going to bring it up next week. And if you want to correspond with us and you want to mention something, you can email us at specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. And what we missed out tonight was the Pinsider Post of the Week, which is by Pinsider Fat Panda. And he asks, what's the best frozen pizza? Now, as a frozen pizza connoisseur, Bill, this really is something I wanted to get into. We're going to wrap this in two minutes. What's your favorite frozen pizza? I'm not going to talk about it this week because we're going to have to get into it next week. Man. No, you're not going to do it either. You're going to leave him hanging like that? No, because we want people to go ahead, post on our Facebook page or email us. It doesn't have to be a long story on why. what's your favorite frozen pizza? And what I would like to do, I'd like to do a frozen pizza tournament bracket.
    45:19
    We're going to start that up, and we're going to see what frozen pizza actually is going to come out on top for this year, 2019. So, Fat Panda, thanks for sharing that on Pinside. And my favorite is? I really appreciate it. I'm kidding. No, no, no. We're going to get some feedback on that. We're going to do a frozen pizza tournament bracket. So, for Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.