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#3 - Dominic Kacich

A Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 25m·analyzed·Aug 27, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

St. Louis player Dominic Kacich discusses competitive pinball journey and tournament strategy

Summary

Dominic Kacich from St. Louis discusses his journey into competitive pinball, starting from casual play in 2005 to becoming a Power 100 player. The conversation covers his tournament experiences at major events like InDisc 2019 and Pinburgh, his analytical approach to game selection and tournament strategy, and the differences between elite and casual play.

Key Claims

  • Dominic Kacich has qualified in A Division for every major tournament he has played in, except for Pinburgh where he competed in C Division

    high confidence · He stated 'I don't think I've ever had a – I think I've qualified in every major tournament I've played in, assuming qualifying in A Division for Pemberg counts.'

  • InDisc uses a best-5-games pop-up format card tournament structure run by Carl D'Angelo, Jim Belcedo, and Bob Matthews

    high confidence · Hosts confirmed the tournament structure: 'best five games, you have to put together five games in a row that beats out everybody else'

  • Power 100 status is determined by having a winning record against anyone ranked in the top 250 in the world

    high confidence · Host asked: 'you're a power 100 player, which means that you have a winning record against anybody that's ranked inside the 250 in the world, correct?' Dominic confirmed: 'Yep, that's correct.'

  • Louisville Arcade Expo served as a Stern Pro Circuit event in 2016-2018, using PAPA tournament format

    high confidence · Dominic: 'louisville arcade expo in 2016 i think was my first first uh stern pro circuit event' and finished 12th three years in a row (2016, 2017, 2018)

  • Top competitive players achieve approximately 90% accuracy on ramp shots versus casual players at 40-50%

    medium confidence · Dominic stated: 'they're probably hitting a ramp shot 90 percent of the time uh when they're shooting at it versus maybe a casual is more like you know 40 to 50 percent of the time'

Notable Quotes

  • “I like the physical aspect of pinball. I like being able to control the game and all that stuff. I didn't really have much interest in any other video games per se.”

    Dominic Kacich @ early in episode — Explains why pinball specifically appealed to him versus other gaming options

  • “I would always get excited. But then, you know, in in Kirksville, Missouri, where I went to college, the only game was Adam's family.”

    Dominic Kacich @ mid-episode — Shows limited arcade access during college years before discovering competitive pinball

  • “InDisc was, yeah, it was just so exhausting just because, you know, if you have a bad, you know, if you're having a good card and then you mess up, then you have to restart basically.”

    Dominic Kacich @ tournament discussion — Describes the punishing format of pop-up card tournaments

  • “I get a one-track mind, especially at a Herb event. If I know I can beat the game, I'm going to try to beat the game.”

    Host (unnamed) @ late in episode — Self-awareness about tournament fixation behavior on specific games

  • “A lot of players really slow it down in high level competition, especially in the heat of the moment. I think the people who slow it down the most and really concentrate on controlling the ball and hitting their shot.”

    Dominic Kacich @ discussion of elite play — Key insight into competitive elite player mindset and ball control philosophy

Entities

Dominic KacichpersonAdam McKinneypersonNick ParkspersonChad KellerpersonInDisceventLouisville Arcade ExpoeventPinburgheventPower 100eventKeith Elwinperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Power 100 tournament features approximately 19-21 of the world's elite players in invite-only format at Josh Sharp's house; considered high-caliber competitive experience

    high · Host: 'I mean, even this tournament, like I was, everyone in that tournament was just super high skill level. There was not, there wasn't anyone there who should not have been there.' Dominic confirms ~19-21 players.

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Tournament players adopt 'void strategy' where they abandon low-scoring cards to preserve Power 100 rating or experiment on games for future cards

    medium · Hosts discussed using 'void' language frequently; Dominic noted learning to void low cards to explore game opportunities rather than complete poor cards

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Elite players willingly take 'double danger' early on strong balls to maximize scoring potential rather than playing conservatively

    medium · Dominic discussing nudging strategy: 'they're willing to actually take, you know, a double danger early in the ball. If that means I still have the ball...obviously that's the way to go versus just letting the ball drain'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Top competitive players achieve significantly higher shot accuracy (90%) versus casual players (40-50%) on ramp shots; ball control and patience are key differentiators

    high · Dominic: 'they're probably hitting a ramp shot 90 percent of the time uh when they're shooting at it versus maybe a casual is more like you know 40 to 50 percent of the time'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: InDisc's pop-up card format (best 5 games in succession) is considered extremely challenging due to volatility and lack of recovery from bad games

Topics

Tournament Strategy and FormatprimaryCompetitive Pinball Skill DevelopmentprimaryElite vs. Casual Player DifferencesprimaryPower 100 Ranking SystemprimaryInDisc Tournament ExperienceprimaryGame Selection at Major TournamentssecondaryPinball Journey from Casual to CompetitivesecondaryBall Control and Nudging Techniquessecondary

Sentiment

positive(0.78)— Dominic is enthusiastic about pinball and reflects positively on his tournament experiences and mentorship. He expresses frustration with specific tournament moments (getting stuck on games, performing poorly) but maintains an upbeat, analytical tone. The host is encouraging and supportive throughout.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.258

0:00
All right, guys, on this episode of the podcast, we have Dominic Kasich from St. Louis, Missouri here today. I had a great conversation with him, mainly about tournament play. He's a very analytical individual. He doesn't get to travel much for tournaments, but when he does, he usually puts up a pretty good showing. He's part of the Power 100, which if you don't know what that is yet, he basically can kick a lot of butt when he plays pinball, and you'll find out a lot more about that as we go on the podcast, as we touch base on not only the Power 100. We talk a little bit about Pinnberg. We talk about his showing at InDisc in 2019. And we go into a little bit of discussion about mindset and the approach to different games. So I feel like this episode will have a lot of value for you, and I highly encourage you to give it a listen. Other than that, you guys enjoy.
0:50
All right, Dom, what's going up? Or going on? Going up, going on. Not too bad. Happy to be here and supporting the podcast. Well, I appreciate it, especially a lot of your patience just trying to get everything set up. It's been quite the past 30 minutes trying to figure this all out. It's all good.
1:10
All right. So I told you I wasn't going to have you introduce yourself, which is true. So everybody knows that this is Dominic, and we talked about it a little bit earlier. But mainly, do you want to tell everybody how you got into pinball? Yeah, for sure. So, you know, I'm 27 years old currently, and I first started playing pinball probably around 2005, believe it or not. You know, I played a lot of competitive sports growing up. And in between a few of my basketball games, I remember playing on a few games at the local arcade and just, you know, really enjoying it and, you know, really, really actually liking the, um, the actual, uh, physical aspect of pinball. Um, and then we bought our first game, um, when my parents redid their basement in 2006, we brought a, uh, Sopranos pinball machine as, as that show was my, was my dad's favorite show and kind of, once again, hits on the, you know, the thing everyone talks about Because, you know, theme is most important for, you know, a pinball buying, you know, in the pinball buying marketplace.
Kaylee Georgeperson
Bowen Kerinsperson
Eric Stoneperson
Luke Nahorniakperson
Zach Sharpperson
Josh Sharpperson
Escher Lefkoffperson
Carl D'Angeloperson
Metallicagame
X-Mengame
The Sopranosgame
Excaliburgame
Rescue 911game
Jungle Queengame
Grand Prixgame
Walking Deadgame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame

high · Both speakers discuss InDisc as 'by far the most difficult tournament' with exhausting volatility. Host noted finishing top rankings after one card then 'shit the bed the very next game' due to format punishing bad games.

  • ?

    event_signal: Louisville Arcade Expo served as PAPA-format Stern Pro Circuit event; tournament discontinued after 2018

    high · Dominic confirmed playing in 2016, 2017, and 2018, finishing 12th all three years; host noted uncertainty about why tournament stopped but says 'last year was the first year that it was not on the circuit'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Company in St. Louis and Chad Keller's private collection (30-40 games) were instrumental in building enthusiast community in early 2000s

    medium · Dominic encountered these venues in 2007 and credits them with inspiring his collection aspirations

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Adam McKinney identified as influential mentor and tournament organizer in Missouri competitive pinball scene, introducing Dominic to tournament play in 2014

    high · Dominic: 'Adam McKinney...was the one who kind of introduced me to, you know, hey, you're pretty good. Have you ever heard of playing in tournaments?...I've learned a lot from Adam'

    • 2:22
    So I just played a lot of Sopranos growing up. I remember, you know, listening to, you know, when my dad was playing it and I should have been in bed. I was listening just on the basement steps, watching as he advanced all the ranks and whatnot in that game. and then you know the next year I remember driving in St. Louis and I saw a sign for the pinball company and so I went in there and I met the owner Nick Parks and you know he kind of showed me all the games that he had and he introduced me to Chad Keller who was a local pinball collector at the time. And I was able to go over to his house and see all these games, I would say, you know, probably 30 to 40 games of, you know, all the classics in great shape, Medieval Madness, Monster Bash, Whitewater, Big Bang Bar, the list goes on and on. So I was kind of, you know, in shock, you know, actually getting that opportunity and whatnot. And, you know, I kind of always envisioned myself, you know, hopefully having that when I when I grow older. So that's pretty much what got you into it immediately. You were just hooked as soon as you saw all that stuff, weren't you? Yep. I like the physical aspect of pinball. I like being able to control the game and all that stuff. I didn't really have much interest in any other video games per se. It was mostly a lot of pinball and just a lot of sports, basketball, track, baseball, soccer, and a few others, golf. So, oh, yeah, especially golf. So basically anything you've done is just hand-eye coordination related pretty much. Except for running. I mean, come on, running. Running's not hand-eye coordination, is it? Maybe it is. I don't know. Running's all about turnover. So my legs have quick turnover. But, no, you're right. Hand-eye coordination is something that, you know, it was a blessing from God, obviously. And, you know, that's helped me a lot in my sports and moving on to pinball now, for sure. That's interesting. So then you did, you know, at the very beginning that you were just going to end up being into competitive pinball. Was that something that you knew about immediately? Because it took me about a year and a half before I even knew competitive pinball even existed. No, that's it. That's a great question. So I played a lot of pinball from, you know, 2005 to, you know, 2000 and say six or seven. And then once high school was out of the freshman high school in 2007, graduated in 2011. I didn't really play much pinball other than just at home playing Sopranos and then moved off to college. And I remember probably my freshman, sophomore year, I would always go and check on, you know, on the Stern website. And just, you know, I would always check probably once every three or four quarters. Hey, what's the new game coming out? Remember, I remember seeing Metallica when that came out. X-Men. I think, you know, those were those were the two games that came to mind. So I would always get excited. But then, you know, in in Kirksville, Missouri, where I went to college, the only game was Adam's family. So, you know, I played that a lot in the local arcade. And then I would go to Columbia, Missouri, which is home of the University of Missouri. It was roughly an hour and a half from my college. And I met Adam McKinney there one night playing when I was playing Adam's family. and he was the one who kind of introduced me to, you know, hey, you're pretty good. Have you ever heard of playing in tournaments? And I kind of looked at him, you know, was like, what are you talking about?
    6:08
    But no, I, you know, he gave me his number, I believe, or Facebook or, you know, something like that. And, you know, just, you know, I'm a very competitive person. So I reached out to him and kind of the rest is history. I've learned a lot from Adam, you know, since I started really in 2014 playing competitively. And, you know, we've had a lot of good experiences together, and he's helped me learn a lot about pinball. It's funny you mention Adam. I had the pleasure of meeting him this past N-Disc, and he is quite the character. I saw the greatest grouping ever in the history of pinball. It was during the Classics Finals. I can't remember if it was one or two, but one of my buddies, Sam Swain, he made it. It was his first ever A finals. And he was in a group with Luke Nahorniak, Adam McKinney, and Eric Stone. Oh, yes. So legit having the intensity of Eric Stone and just, you know, Adam, he is just a free spirit. I mean, the dude is cracking me up the whole time. So that was an interesting group to see. But also, too, you guys ended up playing in a finals together just the year before, correct? Yeah. In this, you know, 2019, and it was honestly, you know, a dream come true. And it kind of was, you know, everything coming together for, you know, for me from a pinball standpoint. Just the amount of hard work that I put in, the amount of time that, you know, I spent with Adam, you know, traveling down to Columbia, traveling to Springfield, Missouri. You know, other tournaments in 2014, 2015, 2016 timeframe. Really honing in my skills and just learning how to become a better player. So, yeah, like you said, you know, having the opportunity to play against Adam in, you know, one of the highest level of tournaments, you know, out there was definitely a dream come true. Yeah, I would definitely put Indisc probably just right up there, right below Pinnberg in terms of prestige. And even then, I mean, that's... Yeah, I would agree. That's, it was just, it was such a difficult tournament. I don't know how it was the year before, but it was by far the most difficult tournament I've ever played in. It was very difficult. I was playing some of the best pinball I'd ever played, and I was really struggling to put five games together. I would have three or four solid ones and then just one that was just kind of a card ender. So I just kept battling and battling, and I finally found Excalibur, a game that I never thought that, you know, I had no idea, you know, you know, how to play the game going into it. Uh, but I finally gave it a try, um, on Adam's suggestion, of course, uh, cause he kind of, he kind of knows how I play. And, um, once, once I figured out that game, I was finally able to put together a card and I think I qualified, I got like 11th or so, uh, in that tournament. Really? Yeah. And so, and for those people that don't know, Indisc, it's located out in California. I forget the exact – Banning, I think it is. Yeah, Banning, California. Great, great tournament. Yeah, ran by Carl D'Angelo, Jim Belcedo, and Bob Matthews, correct? That's correct. And it's basically a pop-up format card. So best five games, you have to put together five games in a row that beats out everybody else in your scores. I mean, it's just – it's a difficult tournament. It's such a grinder. It was by far for me – I don't know about you, Dom, but I was literally exhausted just playing in that. Yeah, I get exhausted at a lot of these tournaments just because I love it and I just keep going, going, and going. But InDisc was, yeah, it was just so exhausting just because, you know, if you have a bad, you know, if you're having a good card and then you mess up, then you have to restart basically. Whereas other herb formats, you know, you can have a bad game and it doesn't hurt you. You know, and this really challenges you to to make sure you're playing, you know, you know, all the games well in a row. And it's not necessarily getting the highest score. It's just can I have a solid game of five above average scores on a game to have a good card? Yeah. And it's you know, it's funny you mention that, too, because I I had one card and this is after my qualifying card. as a matter of fact, I ended up, or the card that helped me qualify, I ended up just absolutely blowing up Meteor. I mean, I was so fired up. It was like 1.5 million on ball one. It just killed it, right? Of course, ball two, ball three, I do jack shit. I end up below 1.6 million, but I was still fired up about that. And then I immediately just shit the bed the very next game. I mean, I forget even what I played. So I gave it one more game and did the exact same thing, just totally ruined my card. Number one score gone. And that just kind of showed just how volatile that type of tournament is. It's just so tough. I remember, I think it was Kaylee George. I was watching him, and he had his first three games on his card was a first, a first, and a third. and I was waiting to see him, you know, ranked in the standings at first, you know, or whatnot. But it turns out, I don't know if he lost focus or what, but he ended up, you know, that card didn't end up counting for him. You know, the last two games were just, you know, he must have just house-falled or something. But that card didn't count, which was just amazing. Really? He totally just ditched the card? He did, yes, after a first and a third. Yeah, it's one of those weird things. You learn pretty quick, unless you're Elwin or maybe Raymond Davidson, but you learn pretty quick how just to say void. Like I learned that was in my vocabulary so much. Yeah, you definitely want a void. But at the same time, if you are having a bad card, the last two or three games, if you're having a bad card, it can't hurt just to go play other games and see, hey, is this game an opportunity for me on my next card? Yeah, and that's very true. and I was curious to know kind of what your strategy was at the very beginning of that. And I definitely want to hit back onto how you started out in tournament pinball and all this, but I want to lean into this a little bit more because I found when I play any tournament, if it's Herb or especially even Five Card or Papa Card, I tend to use my very first entry or my first card just on games that I know I want to play, but yet I'm using it for practice. Like I'm finding out the geometry, where the tilt is, where the shots are. That's what I tend to do. How do you approach it? You know, I'm the same way. I play a lot of the modern games, obviously. I have more access to those, and I'm able to go to a lot of my local collectors' houses, and they let me just hammer and bash on these games, which is nice. So when I go to a tournament, I'm trying to find all the newer games. If I remember correctly, for that tournament, it was Pirates of the Caribbean.
    13:15
    The new game. The Jersey Jack, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. The new one from Jersey Jack. I want to say Cubalt Wizard was one that I liked playing and I was comfortable on. Iron Maiden was one. And after that, it was kind of just like a hodgepodge of games that I wasn't too familiar with, honestly, which can be challenging, but at the same time, it opens up a lot of options for me in terms of figuring out which games are best suited for my capabilities and how I play the game. It's interesting that you mention that because I imagine besides the locals from that scene, I imagine everybody else that's coming in, they probably feel a lot of the same way. They're playing because InDisc is notorious for having games that typically you don't find at tournaments. I mean, Rescue 911 was one of them this year. And I remember us talking about it before the tournament even started. As soon as I saw it was announced, I told you immediately, I'm like, this is going to be the longest playing game. Once everybody figures out what to do, we're going to be there forever. And it turns out, like I sat there and I watched Elwin play for at least half hour. And then Zach Sharp, half hour. Kaylee George, half hour. And I get up there, I'm like, I'm going to do the same thing. three minutes later I'm like I'm not going to do the same thing it's just but it's amazing what some of those players can do no it is and they're really good at handling pressure and they're really good at understanding you know what they're good at and their strengths um you know if you watch Keith play if you watch Kaylee Bowen they're they're Eric Stone they're all they're all you know very calm when they're playing and um they're you know all their flipper skills and just how patient they are and with their nudging and stuff, it's high level and it's fun to watch. And that's why they are the best in the world. And I definitely watch a lot of Keith Elwin videos and Kaylee and Bowen as well, just to, you know, basically see, hey, how are they playing the game? And basically when I'm watching their videos, I'm in my head basically playing the game with them. You know, would I dead bounce in this situation? Would I do a live catch? Would I do, you know, a live post catch? You know, I do a tip pass, all that stuff. And, you know, I think just kind of walking through that process and trying to put myself in their shoes has helped me tremendously in terms of, you know, how fast I've been able to reach, you know, the highest level of competitive pinball. Yeah, I was about to say you you don't really get to travel too much nationally. You stay more regional, correct? uh yeah i mean i recently i've just i've been so busy with work and stuff it can be challenging uh 2019 and 18 i did get out and travel a little bit um i didn't i don't really get much opportunity to play in the local scene uh unfortunately um you know there are some good locations here i just uh you know i like i do other things i have a fiance i like to spend time with her um i like to play golf. So there always seems to be other things coming up, um, on, on weekend tournaments locally. See, now I got to hope my wife doesn't hear this. If she, if she hears somebody else saying I'm spending time with my fiance instead of pinball, I'm up Schitt's Creek, Dom. I can't let her know about that. But yeah, I'm glad you mentioned that though earlier. It's, um, so for those that don't know, you're a power 100 player, which means that you have a winning record against anybody that's ranked inside the 250 in the world, correct? Yep, that's correct. And like I said, I'd love to get my ranking up and be a little higher.
    16:52
    It's just the access to how many tournaments can I go to in a year just makes it challenging and stuff. Right. I don't think I've ever had a – I think I've qualified in every major tournament I've played in, assuming qualifying in A Division for Pemberg counts. You know what I mean? Hey, it counts for me. My ass was down in C division. I just shit the bed day one. So, yeah, that totally counts. Yeah, now we're bringing back bad memories, Dom. Can't do it. Well, that's why you're not in the Power 100, unfortunately. Oh, my gosh. And you won't be for the next two years. Yeah. All the listeners of this show, do not play in – or if you're going to play in a tournament, make sure that you're putting your full effort into that tournament. and if you're going to play a classics tournament on the side, at least from a rating standpoint, I recommend putting your full effort into it so if you don't just play the minimum number of games and finish 100th, that can really impact your top power 100 rankings, if that's something you care about. That's very true and it's funny you mention that. For those that don't know what we're referencing, there's two tournaments that happens at Pinberg. Well, that happens at ReplayFX. One of them is Pinberg. The other one is, I think it's called Intergalactic. Yep, Intergalactic. Which is, I honestly forgot how it runs. I think it's a herb. You get 20 entries or something like that. It's a limited herb format. I think it's 10. Okay, 10. See, I didn't even use all of them. So what happened, guys, is I bought all my entries, and I was like, yeah, I'm going to play everything. And day one, I didn't even think, I didn't even play bad. I just shot like I was Ray Charles. Like I legit played like I was a blind person playing pinball. I'd get a ball and a flipper. I just missed a shot. I was under control. There was no nerves. I just couldn't hit anything. I picked the worst time to play. So essentially I had my, my intergalactic tickets also. And I played, I think two games total, three games. And finally I was just like, F it. Can't do it. I'm going to go grab a beer. And then one beer turned into two, two turned into three. And I was like, you know what? I am not going back. And I didn't think anything of it. And I took fourth to last. It just torpedoed.
    19:14
    Totally torpedoed it. Yeah, if you want to be in the Power 100 and you're going to Pemberg, you have to do pretty well there. If you can qualify for A, that should help your Power 100 for sure. Yeah, and that's something I would like to do. But just like you said, I've got to wait a long time. So I guess, yeah, and I thought I was going the right direction until all these tournaments got just canceled. And I still, I remember you, or I remember telling you after free play, because I didn't play classics at all there, because we talked about this. I'm like, I'm not playing classics. I'm just going to focus on main. And then I told you and I told a couple others, if you see me trying to play classics at end disc, tell me no. Stop me. I need an intervention. and everybody tried to stop me on game one and next thing i know game one turns into about 12 games and finally i'm just like screw it i'm not qualifying i'm done and then again i did the same thing again where i fall way down everybody else is up i do decent in the main but yeah it just you're right it doing that type of strategy if you're wanting to be power 100 it's yeah It's not going to work. There's definitely a lot of strategy involved. And there's tournaments where I do play classics, but that's an area where I'm still trying to get a lot better at. And I've had success playing in some classics, I think Cleveland or Buffalo maybe. Yeah, that's actually where we met too, during classics.
    20:44
    Well, we played in both main together and classics, didn't we? I think we did. We were both grouped up. Okay. We split it one-to-one, but I guarantee you. We did split it one-to-one. but classics i just got i got annihilated dom killed me it's it's that's just the truth it was so bad because i did the same thing you witnessed me probably doing the same thing i got stuck on i think it was jungle queen during yeah during qualifying and all i had to do is get over i think it was 80 000 or 90 000 i say that's all it's close to rolling it and i ended up spending i thought it was just going to take me two games next thing i know it's three hours later and i'm The only one queued up on this damn game. Yeah I do Yeah I remember thinking to myself I think you wearing a Yankees hat And I hadn really met you at the time until we actually met in our playoffs a couple hours later I was thinking to myself this guy is just relentless on this jungle I can't help it. I get a one-track mind, especially at a Herb event. If I know I can beat the game, I'm going to try to beat the game. It's just the same way at Free Play Florida. I did the same thing on Grand Prix. I ended up stuck on there. and it's funny because I was already qualified for A but I knew that I could get into the top five scores and I knew if I did that I would have the buys for the next day so I really wanted that and it was one of those things I had full bonus on my second game and somehow I got a tilt out of the pop bumpers like it was in the pops and the damn thing tilted full bonus everything and I was just raging so hard I ended up playing it like 18 more times I swear, I paid enough money, Dom, in tickets. I could have just took the damn game home with me. It was so terrible. Oh, man. But that's the way it goes, though. I mean, it's just. It is. And there's some tournaments where, you know, you get off to a hot start and you're fine. And I can go over and play some classics games. And other tournaments where that's not the case, I'm stuck over at Maine trying to qualify to get my points for the actual circuit. it so yeah and that's that's one of those things where i wish i had elwin's talents where he just walks in and immediately just goes beast mode on every game in there and just leaves it just yep he's good he's done that's that's that's the best way to do it and uh we're all striving to get there but uh just it takes a lot of practice i'm sure if you asked him he he played a lot growing up and his practice and his fine-tuned uh you know his profession for sure so then let's kind of circle back here what was one of the first big tournaments that you played at uh the uh louisville arcade expo in 2016 i think was my first first uh stern pro circuit event and was that was that stern pro circuit then or was that the papa that was that's a good question i think that was still the last year the papa format um okay i think that was the case there but no i really enjoyed that event i thought it was well run by all the people at papa you know they brought their games down there and you know i think they had the broadcasting and stuff so it was always a great tournament to go to um it's only four hours away from st louis and it worked out great uh in the schedule in early march so hopefully that one can come back um at some point because i thought it was really a great way to to be a kickstarter for the stern pro circuit um year each year yeah and that's what i was trying to figure out actually just a couple weeks ago i can't i couldn't find out if they had just stopped doing the convention altogether or just stopped doing the tournament yeah i'm not entirely sure what happened i i heard that you know the the show still goes on um i i think you know something happened with with the tournament i'm not sure if it was the organizers of the tournament or or papa but um yeah it's as of i think last year was the first year that it was not on the circuit really it's crazy how that happens and that's all Herb Formats, right? Correct, yep. Out that way? Yep. Then what, so you said every, I remember I was talking about this off camera, but you I played in three Louisville Arcade Expos, 2016, 17, and 18, and I finished 12th all three years, so I was qualifying in A, and I was winning a group or two, and just, yeah, I was never able to get to the actual semis. I think the only time I've gotten to the semis was – or I think it was Penn-Major was the first time. I think it took seven in 2018 maybe. And then, obviously, in-disc was my breakthrough in getting all the way to the finals of that tournament. Yeah, so took 12 three times in a row. Did you just plan that out? Honestly, I didn't even really look at it until I was looking at my IFPA scorecard, and it just kind of worked out, man. And, you know, finishing between, you know, the, I guess, 9th through 12th place, I would imagine.
    25:39
    That's crazy. If anything, you're consistent. Yes, very consistent. So that's a good thing. Well, also, too, we were talking about Power 100 earlier. And one of the reasons why that's important for those that are listening is that I think it's Josh Sharp, right? He hosts Power 100. Yeah, he hosts it at his house. And honestly, I mean, I just, you know, it was the same weekend as Expo. So I went up there early just to, you know, I just wanted to play and see kind of how I was against, you know, the other top guys against the top players. And honestly, I mean, maybe outside of Pimberg, but I mean, even this tournament, like I was, everyone in that tournament was just super high skill level. There was not, there wasn't anyone there who should not have been there. So, you know, I learned a ton from all those guys and just watching them play. And I made a pretty good run. I think I was in the lead most of the time, actually, and I ended up taking fourth, or I think fourth or fifth. And that was out of about 19, 20, 21 players or something like that? Yeah, something like that. So I was ecstatic. I think Escher ended up winning with his amazing game of Walking Dead. He just blew it up. And then I think Alex and Josh Sharp also finished ahead of me. Yeah, and that's one of the tournaments that I really wish that it would be showcased a lot more. Because like you said, there's such high-level play happening right there, especially since you have all Power 100 players there. Everybody can flat out just play. That's something I wish they would show it a lot. Yeah, and I think, wasn't it, Deadflip, I think, was showing it, or somebody was supposed to show it. Somebody was supposed to show it and it ended up not happening. I think the tournament lasted a little longer than I think it was supposed to. It ended up pushing some events back, or some matchups back in the Expo tournament. Yeah, I remember something about that. But I will say, if this ever happens again, I assume it will, we'll have a Power 100 again, I'll be more than happy to show up and broadcast it. Because the way that I've been playing, that's the only way I'm going to actually get into it, short of just setting a launcher in Josh's yard. So, yeah, I'll offer up the ability to go ahead and stream it. I'm sure he'd be willing.
    27:55
    Well, he probably has an amazing collection. it was it was i don't know how many games it was probably 25 30 games uh all in great condition um all eras of games it was yeah no complaints for me it was an amazing day and i learned a lot from all those guys uh they're playing so what was the what would you say is the big difference between playing those caliber players they're playing somebody that might be listening that's that knows that they're average to slightly above average what would you say i mean everyone first of all has great rules knowledge. They understand what to shoot. They understand what shots can lead to potential drains and whatnot. A lot of players really slow it down in high level competition, especially in the heat of the moment. I think the people who slow it down the most and really concentrate on controlling the ball and hitting their shot. And then once again you know actually getting the ball back in control um you see a lot of that um the accuracy of shooters in the power 100 and just all the top players is is much higher than the average person um you know that they're probably hitting a ramp shot 90 percent of the time uh when they're shooting at it versus maybe a casual is more like you know 40 to 50 percent of the time so you know when you're when you add those things up and just you know all you know if you bring everything together, you know, that's why those guys are the best in the world. Yeah, and that's something that we've talked about a lot too. And I've always theorized also that if you mix in the ability to nudge or just keep a ball in play with control, with accuracy, I mean, it's just, it's deadly. It's hard to beat. Yep. Nudging is super important. It's still, it's probably, I would say, one of the last things that kind of comes, you know, it comes naturally to people. And it is still something that I am working on. And I don't I will admit that I don't nudge enough. I don't take enough dangers on the machines I'm playing. I mean, because if you watch some of these guys, they're willing to actually take, you know, a double danger early in the ball. If that means I still have the ball, because then, you know, a ball, a ball is a life, basically. So, you know, if they still have have three balls and, you know, and, you know, if they start shooting accurate and, you know, starting to rack up the score on double danger, obviously that's the way to go versus just letting the ball drain, which I sometimes can do that sometimes, unfortunately.
    30:27
    Well, it's funny that you mention that, too, because the name that comes to mind immediately with that is Luke Nahorniak. He is notorious for having a hybrid style to where sometimes he'll be in control, sometimes he'll be playing on the fly, yet somehow he's still in control, and then he'll just shake the shit out of the machine and somehow not tilt. Yeah, if you watch Luke closely at Herb formats, when he's stepping up to a game, he might have had a couple bad balls at first. He's always nudging that machine and trying to get a sense of where that tilt is. And he's not doing that because he's mad. He's doing that to learn where the tilt is for when he does play the next game. he understands you know what can i get away with what can't i get away with so you know once he understands that and gets a feel you know he can he can he can get more comfortable the more comfortable somebody gets you know obviously the higher the score they're most likely going to achieve definitely well were you there with me at free play whenever he uh came over and discovered what was going on with joker joker poker oh yeah i was there yeah he's that was hilarious that For those that don't know, I don't think we've ever told the story. And I'll just tell it briefly because I'll let Luke really explain what was going on. But I just remember we were over by Classics and he came over to us and he was excited. This was like a kid that just woke up on Christmas morning and saw that he just didn't get one bike. He got like two or three of them. And he was like, there's no tilt on Joker Poker. I'm going to have my way with it. I'm going to get the top score. And not even 30 minutes later, I'm watching him. He was shaking the pin so much that the back box just came flying.
    32:14
    And he didn't get a danger, no tilt. But, hey. It's the same thing for everyone. You're trying to get an edge on the field at some point in those type of tournaments. He found it. It was probably one of the funniest things I've seen. By far, just seeing somebody, seeing an elite player, nudging the machine so much that the back box or whatever starts to come off he stops traps up kind of holds it to push it back that's crazy yeah i mean usually usually or sorry in most cases um obviously the tilts are going to be a lot tighter in these higher level tournaments in order to um have lower ball times uh for all these top level players yeah it's well even down a free play, I felt like that the tilts were very generous. It didn't really feel like anything was super tight. I remember when we were... I think Guardians was the only one that I felt was very tight. Yeah, Guardians played weird too because they had the flippers that were kind of very shallow.
    33:15
    So all the shots were just really funky. Yeah, it was a weird game for sure. That was probably, I think, in qualifying, I got right around $950 million and that was probably the best Guardians game I've ever played in my life. And I own one. And it just took everything in me just to get to that. I think you ended up then saying, hold my beer, and you got like 1.6. Yeah, I had a really good Cherry Bomb multi-ball. And I think Greg Pavarelli was watching. I got really lucky on the kickout from Quill's Quest. I needed like four more shots to Quill's to finish the mode and then ultimately light Cherry Bomb. And I literally did not flip the flipper. It just kept kicking out and somehow it would go off the left flipper, right flipper, and then somehow it would go back in the hole. Really? It happened four straight times, and I was like, holy cow. And then it started cherry bomb. I had all my multipliers lit, and it was just point bombing from there. So then you probably even completed quills, like the second one. I completed quills, and I think I started cherry bomb on the same. It was very lucky. Well, you know, it happens like that. That's fine. I mean, sometimes you've got to have a little luck. There's always a little luck in pinball, for sure. Well, the big thing about it is, too, is that, you know, and that's a prime example that I'm a firm believer that you've got to create your own luck when it comes to pinball. If you're able to get deep into the game, then you'll still, the longer you're keeping the ball alive, obviously the more that you're going to have happen for you. Yep. So, I mean, that's a prime example. And I think that game, too, is funny because I know I played it. I picked it once in finals. Did you play it the round before? I did. I think we played it as well in our group. We were all right around 20 million, and you took the win, and that kind of vaulted you into a good position to the rest of the round. Yeah, I'm trying to remember what happened. I think Bowden won that game for us. Oh, yeah.
    35:15
    Bowden won, and I think I got really lucky because I think I only beat your score by... 40,000. I don't think it was even that. It was a small amount. It was one shot. Oh. Yeah, it goes like that sometimes. That's pinball for sure. Well, were you in the game? I can't remember because I know the round before, the winning score for some group was like 18 million. That's correct, yep. Something like that. I mean, that's the way it goes, and it goes to show you that even though you're playing with elite players or other players are playing, obviously, that sometimes just a mediocre score is good enough. It goes like that sometimes as well. That's what makes pinball awesome. You're playing head-to-head against three other people in most cases, and it's just who's executing the shots better and who has a better strategy heading into the game and ultimately who's able to adjust their strategy throughout the game depending on circumstances of player scores and other things going on. Yeah, and that's a great point, And especially the way that that guardians was set up with the flippers kind of sagging. It's I've, I found myself cause I liked the backhand, the orb shot a lot. And I found it. Yeah. It was really hard on that. And I just, I got hard headed and I tried it again and I got lucky. I found it, but legitimately that shot was nearly at the joint. Yep. Like as soon as I released, I was immediately just flipping it right back up. And I got really lucky finding that shot that early. Cause it was, I mean, it played. difficult. I think Stone ended up getting in the finals like $600 million on it. Yeah, it was a great, great score. Yeah, and he made it look easy. And what a lot of people don't realize, that would have been probably a top 10 score all weekend long on something that was in a Herb event. Yeah, if you watch finals of tournaments, that's not uncommon to where a few of the highest scores of that tournament happen to occur in the finals. And it's mostly because these guys are focused in, very focused in. When you play in a Herb format, it's very easy to lose focus just because you can always play another game.
    37:22
    When these top players are focused in and they know they have to get a certain score, it's pretty cool and amazing to watch. They usually can actually get to those scores. It's awesome. Yeah, it definitely is. It's funny that that final at free play, I'm trying to remember who all was in it. I think it was Bob Matthews. It was Eric Stone.
    37:45
    Was Luke in the finals? No. I think he got eliminated early on. Derek Price. I know he was there. Oh yeah, Derek Price. Who was the other one? Who were we missing?
    37:56
    Missing one person. Was it Carl? It was Carl D'Angelo. Yeah, okay. I'm remembering now. It's funny you mention that too. Different players have all kinds of different strategies as well and different styles of gameplay. And I still remember watching Bob Matthews play Black Knight, and he was the craziest thing. Yeah, I had a hard time watching, but the ball was still alive. So everyone can play different. That's kind of how Bob plays, and he's comfortable, and that's kind of, you know, in that type of play. So it works for him. Yeah, and that's a great example of it. Like, my heart, that was, watching him play, that was the most my heart rate went up all weekend long. Yet the ball stayed in play. He did the same thing to us the previous round on Tron. He was going disc all day. And, I mean, he crushed it. And then I was the idiot because I was driving the bus. And I was like, you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to pick volley against Bob Matthews. Yeah, that was smart.
    39:04
    It's truly amazing how good Bob is. just just you know he's you know he's he's older and obviously the older you get the you know the you know your hand-eye coordination goes down and you know he's probably not playing as much as as some of these other people and and whatnot he might not know all the rules but uh you know he sure seems to find himself in a lot of a lot of semis and finals of major tournaments so he's doing something right yeah he's an exceptional player i mean it's and that's something too especially when we're talking about different types of ways to play it's i find it very interesting to watch him play because it's it's odd the odd part to me is is that it feels like he's reversed compared to a lot of players where players that are very controlled on moderns they may not be as controlled on ems or solid states and he is just complete control the opposite guys he's yeah when you watch him play an em um i mean i can tell he played those growing up because he He knows exactly what to do. And, yeah, that ball is under control. It's a really fun thing to watch. Yeah, I need to learn that. I had a lot of fun watching that free play because I got to eliminate it.
    40:12
    That's the way it goes. It is. Yeah, so, you know, and it's interesting, too. I quite often wonder, in terms of some of these players, I need to ask around more about people's comfort levels with classics, with moderns and the way I operate, I love playing classics. I mean, you can tell behind me I have some classics. Yep. But it's so weird. If I play in tournaments, I love doing it, but I know I'm not any good at them. And I just can't – I'm trying to crack that egg still and figure out what my style is for that. For sure. And the good thing with some of those games is that they are more simple. So if you have enough time, you can watch the best players like Phil Birnbaum, Bob, You know, Eric Stone when they're playing classics, and you can kind of get a sense of what they're doing and just kind of replicate that, honestly. That's what I try to do as much as I can when I'm playing classics games. Yeah, and that's one of the reasons why I did not play the Target classics at Indus this year. I knew better then until I got there, and then I started playing the classics obviously there. But, yeah, watching our Bob play, not Bob Matthews, but Bob Caldwell, watching him play classics was probably one of the most fun times I've had in pinball. Yeah, he has fun playing pinball. And there's some times where he's under control, and a lot of times he just says, screw it, I'm just going for it. And that's kind of his mojo, and it's worked well for him. He's done very well at large tournaments, and he's held his own for sure. his quote too, ride the lightning and he means it too he does it's a unique skill to have too and that goes into it as well that's what I enjoy about pinball especially from the competitive side that your top level tournaments you cannot hide from classics you have to either know how to play classics or do well on classics whether it's at Indisc or Pinberg You can't hide from it. No. If you can't play them or you can't play them well, you're screwed. I mean, it's as simple as that.
    42:24
    And I think a lot of the time is a lot of people, I feel like, you know, they'll get banks at Pembroke and then they're like, oh, this bank sucks. Their attitude is so negative heading into it that, you know, the chances of them doing well are so low. Whereas you have to remember, everyone else is playing the exact same games as you. everyone else probably has not played those games and if they have it's been a very very long time so you know in a pinberg type of format i mean for me it just you know trying trying to you know to actually do better than the person i playing with and whether if that finding one shot that I comfortable with and just to keep doing that you know that might be the case in order for me to get three points or you know someone just says two points if someone else blew it up.
    43:10
    There's a lot that goes into it besides just, you know, actually stepping up to the game and flipping away and playing. Yeah, and especially a tournament like that, every point absolutely matters. Oh, 100%. I missed out by, I think, two points just last year, and I didn't even play that well, but there's so many points I just left out there. I used to own a Hobbit, and I got a zero on that game, and just instances like that where it's like I lost my focus. I mean, I got too comfortable, and I kind of just thought that, hey, this would be an automatic two or three, and it just wasn't the case. So you have to really stay focused and treat every ball and every game super seriously. and that's what's hard to do but that's what makes the format so fun yeah i mean that it's so true too and it just it shows you how important not just each game is but like you said every single ball there because just one ball can make or break whether it's you know tilting away bone like i was playing and i think this was during day two when i was doing qualifying for the awesome c division we were doing so great but we were playing i want to say it was high hand or as an em and i just remember somebody it might not even been high hand it might have been another em but i remember somebody was playing and they were legitimately in second place they needed the first place in order to vault them up a little bit higher in the standings but they ended up nudging too hard until end of game oh geez and that was on ball three of a five ball game so yeah that just goes to show you just a lapse in judgment right there of knowing that you don't even need to worry about it just keep the ball in play play on pins and needles but at that point because you've done the hard work and you know situations like that I can imagine how frustrating that could be and how that could affect you going to the next game 100 and there's there's yeah I mean it's easy it's very easy to have a lapse in judgment when you're playing that many balls and that many games but kind of what I do is you know I step up to a game and I take a deep breath and I might wait five or 10 seconds before punching the ball to make sure I'm mentally there. I have an understanding of what I plan to do on the ball and, you know, having an understanding of if I do tilt or how much can I tilt? And if I do tilt, does it end the game? And if that's the case, I might not, you know, I might not nudge the machine as much on balls one, two, and three. Whereas on four and five, depending on where I'm at in the game, you know, I know I can get a little bit more aggressive. yeah and that makes makes total sense and that's it's it's very important to that you kind of alluded to to make sure that whenever you are stepping up to the game for me i like knowing where the shots are that i'm capable of hitting as well so that's that's really important and pinberg is just it's a different you know a different beast also that you're not going to have you're going to have wide open out lanes you're not going to have rubbers on the end lanes or anything like that are on the post. No, it's a tournament. If I said this to people before, it's a tournament of adjustments. I mean, I would say for EMs and the older games, the first two balls are probably me just getting a feel for the machine and the shots, and then it's the same with moderns. It might take me a ball or two to get used to the shots and the flippers, and that's just kind of how it is. But it's the people who can adjust quickly and, you know, in between balls instead of in between games, you know, who are the ones who are ultimately going to be doing the best. You hit the nail on the head. Where were you during Pinnberg for me? I needed that advice somewhere around round three, when I came back from dinner and I put up a three, I think just torpedoed my day. Yeah, it can happen. It's yeah, it's such a tough tournament, but that's what makes it awesome. But now if you look at people like Keith, you know, it's a tough tournament, but that guy's won that thing like four or five times. So obviously, you know, it does bring out the best players. He is so good that he's able to be in finals and lay down on the stage.
    47:16
    Yeah, he's comfortable. He's been there before. He's done it. Nothing phases him. But, you know, I'm sure at one point things might have phased him, but he's got to the level of, you know, he's the ultimate professional, and he's just like any other sport. He's at the top of, you know, he's the top player in the world. It's as simple as that. Yeah, and I'm curious to see how long he'll be able to keep that mantle because there's so many good young players, so many good young players. Yeah, and these young guys, I remember I spent a lot of time with Escher Lefkoff at the Chicago Expo last year and just at the Power 100 and at the show. So, and the way he thinks is just, it's unbelievable. The way he understands multipliers and just understands, you know, adjusting in the game and just like while the ball is moving, he just knows everything. And it's, yeah, it's truly amazing. That kid's skills are top notch and he understands rule sets. And, yeah, his hand-eye coordination is crazy. His brain thinks differently than anyone I've seen in pinball. yeah and that's i mean that's one of the things too that obviously he's well prepared before he even steps up to a pin like he knows it inside and out you can tell so if he's having to make in-game adjustments on the fly he doesn't have to even think about it it feels like it feels like it's automatic and it helps that he's he played from a young age i mean you can you see pictures his dad posts on facebook um you know he's starting at age two and three so you know that goes a long way. I think that's kind of how I was able to, to, you know, to really, to really get good quickly is that I, I started at, you know, age 13 or 14. So, you know, I was still a pretty young age and I've had a lot of time to, to watch video and to improve my skill. Um, so, I mean, if you think about someone like him, who's been doing it since he's two or three, um, yeah, it's just, it's crazy to think about, you know, the sky's the limit for him. Yeah. And I think you definitely you made a great point earlier when you were talking about that you would watch top level players play at least on online and then you would kind of play the game along with them and it's funny that you mentioned that because i instantly brought back memories from back when i was in baseball when i was a young kid i would actually watch the cubs on tv with a bat in my living room to my mom's chagrin and i would just watch the pitches being thrown and if it's a strike, I'd take a hack at it. If it was a ball, I'd just act like I was taking a pitch. And it was almost like building up that database, even though I couldn't actually track the ball from that angle, obviously, but I was consciously thinking about and visualizing whether it was going to be a strike, where the movement was. And I didn't, I took that for granted because I was just doing that because it was fun, not because I felt like I was practicing for anything bigger, but I really do think that there's something there to it. I almost feel like that's something that I'm personally under utilizing right now that I do watch a lot of tournament pinball and I find myself sometimes thinking about what I would have done, but I'm often thinking about that after the fact and not during the fact. And I think that's, that's a great insight that you're providing. And that's, yeah, I encourage everyone who's, you know, who's getting into competitive pinball to, to really watch these videos. You know, all the pop videos that Bowen did, they're amazing. I mean, and you're watching quality content, the entire, the entire video that, That's some of the issue I see with streaming these tournaments and just going back to rewatch it. There's a lot of content that's just not great. There's just a lot of filler time between balls and whatnot. But the videos that Bowen did, the videos that Carl D'Angelo is doing right now, they're edited videos of high-level play with a purpose.
    51:10
    I would love to see more of that in pinball. I know that that's something that you're working on, you know, actually bringing to the hobby, which I'm looking forward to, you know, seeing how that progresses. But no, the video analysis of pinball is something that I think a lot of people aren't doing enough of. And it's how I've gotten so good at pinball so quickly is I don't play much pinball, honestly. I watch a lot of pinball and I watch a lot of high level pinball. well even then i have you have you told anybody when was the last time you played pinball right before indisc when you made a run to the final no i i have not so yeah i i made indisc finals in january 2019 um i think i was probably off two or three months before that didn't didn't really touch the machine but uh i would watch video though i'd watch i'd watch videos of keith and there you go bowen and whatnot and just to keep my my skills honed but no i i i didn't play much pinball during that time and for me that's just kind of how I it's kind of how I roll honestly I would love to play more but I understand that that I can't I have other things in my life that are more important at times so uh you know I try my best to to put myself in positions to succeed and just ultimately I enjoy the competitive nature and going to these tournaments and competing at the highest level yeah and that's amazing that you were able to do that after taking all that time off because I felt like before tournaments I have to play non-stop to stay in the zone to either go over rule sets to figure out what I'm going to do it's you know and that's just kind of the way my brain works yeah for sure like I said I wish I could play more but there are days when I when I do play and kind of my my mindset there is you know I'll just play for six straight hours I'll go over to my friend Larry's house and he'll let me just play all of his brand new new inbox during games le's and you know i just go to town on him he lets me he'll let me take off the glass if i want to he'll let me just let me play and you know that's it's awesome to have but uh you know i'll just hammer it out for six hours and um that's all i need yeah and that's the way to do it and i know we've talked about that a lot uh in the past that the way that i don't know how you approach the game in terms of learning a rule set or remembering a rule set. I just know that whenever I'm thinking about how to utilize the rule sets that I know, if I know there's a certain game that we have to play or a certain bank of games, I know I like finding a roadmap through that game to progress through. Yeah. And I know something that, you know, you've been big on and I've kind of started to really think positively along your line of thinking is understanding all the sequences in a pinball game. And a great example is like watching you play a game of black knight you you had an understanding of once i start this multi-ball i shoot x shot into x shot into x shot and ultimately that's how i get my super jackpot right yeah and understanding those shots and just the sequences of that is something that i'm i'm learning and you know i think that's something that you've brought up in the past that that is um it's a tremendous asset to understand is you know which shots should i shoot and which order should I shoot them in order to maximize my points in the fewest number of flips. Yeah, and I'm huge on that. And we talked about that a lot, about Black Knight before Freeplay Florida. And that's, yeah, you're right. I forgot about that game, but the game you're referring to, I remember that now. It was actually in the second round, or it might have been semifinals, actually, game one with Bowden, Derek Price, and Bob Matthews. And I think... Yeah, he just blew it up. Well, it was one of those things, too, that if you do understand sequencing to a lot of these games and you kind of have that mapped out in your head, as long as you're accurate, you're I mean, you can you can play under control, but on the fly at the same time. like whether it's in for black night, what I figured out is, is if you stay trapped up on the left side, eventually, or you could even do this, just, I like doing this just right out of the gate. If there's any type of ball save, but you can still do this full sequence with two balls trapped up on the left side. So you're basically just going to go center ramp. And then I like to personally just backhand or I'll actually go center ramp left orbit, which is a spinner or whatever you want to call it to the saucer. Then come back. then we'll go back into the shield and then it'll come back to my right flipper again. And then that's when I can make the flail stop. Yep. And then I like doing a, I guess not necessarily like a cradle separation to be like an over under to complete that jackpot. And then you can just keep going from there. They'll light your level too. So yeah, it's, I mean, to me, that's so, that's so important. You almost have to understand those sequences on, um, on modern games for sure. Oh, 100% and that's what Escher is so good at in my opinion. He understands sequencing and he understands using multipliers and shot multipliers in line with those sequencing in order to yield the highest shot value. Oh, yeah. It's deadly. There's one sequence in particular on Star Wars that I've noticed a lot of people don't realize, which is – I'll go ahead and reveal it now. It's the – I believe it's Death Star. I'm trying to draw on a blank all of a sudden. It's Death Star, the very first one, Rescue the Princess. And so it's a hurry up that can build up to like 25 million on a shot. So with your multipliers, obviously it can be worth a lot. If you're doing 40x out of competition, it's worth billions. But in competition, even if you're at a 3x or 4x, it's still well worth it to where you can sequence it out to where you can match up just easy shots that it makes sense, it keeps the general flow, and the ball stays relatively safe. So it's a high-value mode. It's probably the most high-value mode on the entire game, and I don't see a lot of people utilizing that. So if you own a Star Wars, check out Rescue the Princess. It will shock you what you can do. Every time I hear somebody that's owned a Star Wars, and they say, well, I can't break 500 million, just go Leia. Leia all day, hit your ramp, hit your Hoth shot, like Endor Hoth, then the next thing you know, you can start Death Star if you want to, even on ball two, and you'll get spotted. I think it's like 40 or 60 million just for picking it, which a lot of people don't realize. And then on top of that, you can play Rescue the Princess as your mode number one. So it's, yeah, you can do stuff like that. And I was able to do that a couple of times at Pin Masters, which really helped. But then there was other times I couldn't hit a damn shot, and it didn't even matter. and I just... Yeah.
    57:56
    No, that's kind of how that game is. And, you know, in head-to-head format, it can be killer, especially if the other person doesn't really know the rules. I mean, you can shoot your mode start shots and that guy's got no chance if he has no idea what he's doing. Yeah, and it's just, gosh, it was really rough because I remember I was playing Robert Gagno in the second round, I think it was, second or third, no, second round at Nationals this year and I picked Star Wars and I could tell he didn't know the rule set because he picked Luke. And he told me the reason he picked Luke, and I forgot what it was, but, I mean, everybody knows that typically in competition play, you want to avoid Luke as much as possible. Just because the points, the game's drainy, and you can't get points very fast with him, and just the way the modes are set up. But yet he, so legit, I picked Leia, and I hit maybe three shots, and then had the hoss shot just go around really fast, straight down the middle of the drain, and I was done.
    58:58
    And the sequence took all of about 12 seconds, or maybe even less than that. It might have just been 10 seconds. And Robert came up, and he played for legit maybe three minutes with Luke. I mean, he was keeping the ball alive, and he came out of it with maybe $28 million, $25. Like there was just nothing there. but he but i couldn't hit the broadside of barn he ended up beating me that game i had leia and he had luke yeah and he beat me that guy i think i ended up only if you're playing if you're playing the percentages i would say 90 percent of the time in that situation you would have won so oh gosh yeah when i saw him pick luke i was like okay we're good like i was confident and then after ball three i was like oh shit i didn't do this right that's that's how it goes sometimes I mean, it just gets rough. I like whenever I play, I have a confidence. No matter who I'm playing, I think I'm going to win just because I absolutely hate losing. You know what I mean? Before tournaments, I know that there's a possibility there of me losing. And a lot of tournaments, to me, it's like the Ricky Bobby thing. If you're not first, you're last. Because obviously you have to take first to win the tournament. Well, more times than not, you're not going to take first. Yeah. But I like to think that I'm going to take first every single time, like no matter who I'm playing, just because I feel like if you have that type of confidence, even if your ability is nowhere near who you're playing or against whoever, I feel like at least having that positive mindset and positive thinking, you're not going to let stuff rattle you. You're going to tend to get into a flow state a lot easier in the games. I feel like that's really important. Oh, for sure. For sure. and I think one thing that's been amazing in watching your transformation is you know you've been playing like I think you said in your introduction podcast you know two or three years but you're you're playing at it you're you're starting to reach the level of of you know super high level of pinball in such a short time so that that kind of stuff always interests me in the kind of understanding you know how you got you know how you got good this quickly and I think you know it kind of gets back to your athletic background um and just being competitive but you know i think it's also you know it's you know i feel like you're passionate about all the stuff you're doing and you know that that helps go it's a long way as well and you try to get an understanding of you know the rule sets and watching video and all that stuff yeah it was just you know i'll tell you exactly what it was it was basically last year when i decided i was going to because i enjoyed competitive pinball so much i wanted to go play the best players i could possibly play so i was traveling out out of oklahoma a lot and it was two things that happened in a row it was one me being up at pentastic which was a pop a card format as well and legitimately on black knight a game that i'm very comfortable on i ended up i only needed like 13 or 14 million to qualify with my card, turnaround got six. Yeah, and there was even a ball save on. And there was even rubbers on. I just totally just shit the bed. I couldn't believe it. And that was my last game. I had no more time to qualify. So that was a little bit discouraging, and I think I ended up being like two spots out of eight. So that was really frustrating. And then Pinnberg, which we talked about earlier, I just totally blew up there. It was just so bad. And I was really confident going into that because I played in the pen masters the night before.
    62:35
    And legitimately, I don't think I even played the last three holes because we ran out of time. But I think they ended up giving me a 10 on each hole afterwards, too. And I still ended up qualifying and still ended up finishing right in the middle of the field. So it would have been one of those things I would have put in a top five score. so I was really confident going into Pinnberg. But knowing how bad I played and knowing that I could have done better, it just kind of drove me a little bit more to change some stuff up, mainly my stance. And we talked about that as well. Like when I came into Cleveland, I ended up taking a more upright stance that was more loose, not as tense. And I felt like it helped me a lot more stay calm while I was playing and everything. And then that's when we talked about it a little bit more after that tournament. I felt like, okay, I feel loose. I feel calm. I don't feel like my nudging ability is there though, because I'd get out of control because my feet were so close together anyways. Yep. Yep. Yeah. I often found you, you know, you were so, you're such an accurate shooter, which I think, you know, is one of your, one of your biggest strengths, but you, you obviously you're going to miss and when you miss, you have to nudge. And I did find that you were off balance when you were nudging just because of how narrow your feet were. Yeah. So yeah, I think you've made those changes, and ultimately you're comfortable now with your stance that you're in. And it sounds weird for the listeners who are thinking we're talking about stance, but no, man, it's important to be balanced and be able to nudge the machine both from the left and the right and ultimately not lose your balance. Because there's been times where I've seen players make amazing saves and their hand comes off the flipper, And they have to in order to save that ball they needed their hand on the flipper you know to have the ball hit it and ultimately just keep it from draining And I seen it numerous times where someone lost their balance and they missed the flip and the ball done I've seen people legit fall down on the ground.
    64:39
    Yeah, it plays so much. And, yeah, as soon as I got done playing, I was thinking about it, about what I could have done better, and it dawned on me. I was thinking about it from a baseball standpoint. I'm like, I don't field a ground ball with my feet close together. I don't get into a power position whenever I'm hitting and getting ready to launch my hands and go into rotation and all that stuff without being in an athletic position. So I decided I was going to take a semi-athletic position, a little bit wider stance and a little bit offset. So I'm actually anchored down because I got terrible knees. Like I legit got the knees of an 80 year old. if Bob Matthews challenged me to a sprint, I would lose. That's how bad my knees are. Like I'm just terrible with that. But yeah, I got a little bit wider stance and it felt like I had more control over the ball. Like it felt like I could actually get my nudges down and all that. And yeah, it's just, and it's one of those things like we talked about, the better at nudging you are and keeping the ball in play, the more opportunities you have to shoot. And then if you do happen to be accurate, the more points, the more progression you're going to make and you know, The more fun you're going to have ultimately too. It's a lot more fun to keep the ball in play. For sure. And here's another thing just to bring up, and I would like to actually get some feedback from your listeners on this, is how can we bring more players into pinball who have the athletic ability? I play with all these top guys from a basketball standpoint, a track standpoint, a baseball standpoint growing up. There's colleges all around the country with athletes. to, you know, once they're done, they're probably playing pickup ball, they're probably playing some golf, whatever they're playing. How can we get those type of players interested in the pinball and ultimately competing at the highest level? I think that's a question in an area that, you know, I think there is a lot of growth there. I'd hope to see maybe the IFPA or, you know, all these local locations trying to make a push to identify, you know, these type of people. in order to grow the competitive scene even more. Yeah, and I think you're exactly right. I feel like if a lot of ex-athletes got into pinball, you would see a massive shift in the way pinball is just because the hand-eye coordination and the accuracy. I do wish I was able to start pinball at a younger age. I already forgot how old I was when I started. I think I was 32, 33. I'm 36 now. So it's been relatively late in my life. Well, not late, but later than a lot of people. And I often wonder where I could have been if I would have started at 18 or 22. But, yeah, I agree, especially if you get somebody that's right out of college that doesn't go on to play professionally. That's how I was. I mean, I took my – I played college. I ran college track. I played college basketball.
    67:33
    Enjoyed that time. But I knew that once I was done, I was done, right? And I wanted to find something else to be competitive at. And if I'm going to do something, I want to do it at the highest level. So finding something like pinball, you know, was a godsend for me because it allows me to travel across the country. I still get that same feeling I got when I was a kid doing the same thing for sports. And now it's just just pinball. And at the same time, I'm meeting amazing people. You know, I'm learning a lot. I'm having fun and I'm competing at the highest level, which is ultimately my end goal. So, you know, I'd love to see other people have, you know, have that same opportunity and get that same drive, because I think it's there. It's just we have to, as a pinball community, really do a better job of really having these kids learn and having these people, these young ex-athletes learn what makes pinball special and ultimately how to get better. Yeah, and I think I got the feeling that once all this COVID stuff finishes out or obviously just tends to let us be able to get back out to tournaments, to events and all that. I'm hoping that the tournaments will continue to grow because it felt like we were on a path to growth, especially when we analyzed the IFPA numbers. Oh, yeah, we did. Yeah, we did that analysis. I forgot about that. Yeah, and I hope that it stays on there. I'm a little bit worried with some of the places that are closing down right now, but I'm hoping other times it will pick up the slack. But ultimately, I mean, you're right. It's just getting anybody in the pinball would be great. But I really feel like if somehow a lot of these places could kind of advertise it as such, because you have a lot of ex-athletes that will go play slow pitch softball or something like that, like co-ed. That's a huge thing. I always wondered what if a facility would advertise to those types of people. that says, hey, you're not able to play this in the wintertime. Why don't you come in here and keep your group together? To me, it's no wonder. No, for sure. I've seen a lot of people who, once they play, and they kind of realize that, hey, each game is different. Each game has different rule sets and different objectives and challenges. That's what makes pinball so amazing to me. I can play Call of Duty, and I know it's different at some points, but it's the same type of thing over and over again. To me, pinball, I mean, each new game, it's like I'm a kid in a candy store trying to understand the rule sets and where the shot multipliers are, where the multi-balls are, all that stuff. And that, to me, is what makes pinball so special. Yeah, it's a guarantee that you will constantly have to learn in pinball, especially just to keep up the rule sets. I mean, everybody. You have to brush up all the time. I feel like once COVID ends here, I haven't played Turtles. I haven't played Hot Wheels yet. There's like three or four games I haven't even played, so I'm going to be trying to figure out the rules to those games. And then you know Stern's coming out with their next game here in the next month or two, and Jersey Jacks the same way, and Chicago Gaming. These games are going to keep coming out. So from a tournament perspective, there's a lot of games to learn here. It's going to be interesting. The first tournament back, I get the feeling there's going to be... It's going to be a lot of people, I would imagine. Yeah, there's going to be a lot of people there, and there's probably going to be about five people that know all the new pins. They know exactly how to play them. They're just annihilating them. I won't say who it is on the stream, just on the podcast. I'll respect for him. But there's one top player in particular that I talk to often that they are absolutely annihilating games, and they are, it's set up not easy. I mean, not like Pemberg style, but it's not easy. And I'm just like, I tell them all the time, I'm never picking this game against you. And if you end up getting this game in our group, I'm just going to, like, I recognize I'm probably playing for second place. And that's not not having confidence. That's just being realistic and not trying to do too much and overextend. But yeah, so I'm thinking about the people that are playing right now that are getting so much better. And I'm curious to see what happens because I got a feeling that there's a lot of people out there, even people, names that we don't know yet and people that might not have played a division that's going to show up and they're probably going to kick a lot of ass. I mean, I could see somebody do that. That's what makes this hobby special. You'll go to tournaments and there'll be a lot of the top names that you're used to seeing. But every now and then, these tournaments, there's always one or two guys that you're like, who is this guy? You know, Alexander Kosmark, I think is how you say his name, was one of those guys that kind of, you know, he came out of the blue and now he's one of the top 10 players in the world. You know, he was at the Power 100 tournament and his flipper skills were some of the best I've ever seen. So, you know, yeah, there are guys, you know, who are coming up quickly. And, you know, I would like to be an awesome interview if you can get one of those younger guys just to kind of get their mindset and, you know, how they think about this and how they actually go about improving their game. Yeah, I would be really curious about that. I'd be curious to see how they learn the rule sets because I have my way of learning the rule sets. I haven't talked about yet, and I'm curious to see how they do it. For sure. Everyone's different. I mean, for me, I'm more of a visual learner, so I always like to kind of play the game once or twice. And then I'll read the rule set on Tilt Forums and I'll read the rule sets from, you know, all the Stern read me's that they post on the updates and stuff.
    73:16
    But, yeah, I'm very curious as well as to how people, you know, actually take in the rule sets and, you know, how they're thinking about this. If I had to guess for Escher, I think he's trying to identify where are the shot multipliers? How do the shot multipliers work? And if are there playfield multipliers? And if so, how do those work? And then ultimately, is there a way to combine those play field multipliers and shot multipliers in order to have a huge payout? See, I think he just sees it like Neo sees the Matrix.
    73:48
    That's all it is. Just downloads into his brain and he's good to go. I mean, that's amazing how that happens. And it's funny, too, because, man, that's just, you know, it's so strange because I feel like it's the most obvious skill that somebody needs to develop is rule set knowledge. Yet I feel like it's the most underutilized skill. No, for sure. I'm always amazed at these big tournaments. And I'll be the first to admit I don't know these rule sets amazing or like the back of my hand like I should. But, no, there's a lot of people who just don't know. I mean, it's crazy. and they rely on their flipper skills, which, you know, that's kind of what I do sometimes. But, you know, I know, for example, when I was playing, I think it was at Indisc, I picked the Pirates of the Caribbean against Raymond Davidson. And I knew he wasn't familiar with the game. And that was kind of the, you know, that was my advantage on him. And ultimately I was able to beat him on that. But I know he wasn't comfortable on it. And it's crazy to think that the number one player in the world, you know, he wasn't that comfortable on a game. But that's the reality of the situation sometimes. Yeah, just going to show you, there's just so many out there. I mean, it's so difficult. But, you know, especially the more moderns that comes out, I think what I find that's really difficult with playing in these tournaments, it's not necessarily if there's a new modern there, it's if it's one of the older moderns. It just randomly shows up that I haven't played in a long time, I don't have access to that is a layered rule set. That's what I find I have the most difficulty with by far. Yeah, definitely. And, yeah, I have that same difficulty, and I also have the same difficulty of, you know, is a new game, what format is it in? Is it in the, you know, is it set up as a tournament set up? Is it set up as just, you know, competition install, just normal? You know, knowing all those differences, I'll be the first one to say I don't know them all. But, you know, if you do, that can be a huge competitive advantage. Yeah, I mean, that is. That's really important, just comp installs. And I know I played on one with Jurassic Park at the Houston Expo last November, and I'm pretty sure it was on comp install, yet I had no clue what was going on. I thought I knew that game, and I was just like, whoops. I don't know. I'll be happy with my $35 million. Somehow it won, but I had no clue. It played a lot different than what I expected. it for sure speaking of that game huge shout out to keith and stern on that one that to me that's uh that's the best pinball machine that i've ever played honestly the the combination of you know the the shots and how unique they are uh as as long as well as the rule sets it's the layering of the rule sets of that game is tremendous and the amount of paths that a player can take is you know what really makes that game special and uh just the amount of different ways to score a large sum of points. I mean, the balancing of that game, there's so many different strategies, and that's what keeps me as a tournament player coming back. So props to Stern and to Keith on Jurassic Park and Iron Maiden for that matter. Yeah, they both play. I mean, obviously they both play different, but they both play similar in the sense that you can attack it from different standpoints. Whereas when I've been playing Turtles and trying to figure that out, I feel like that there's just two ways to basically play it because we were talking about this earlier that layer shot with the training like it's just Oh gosh, like like we were talking about earlier. I feel like one of my strengths is accuracy And I work on it a lot like I have an actual practice regiment that I work on with different shots different skills And with the layer shot I decided okay, i'm going to take 100 shots up at this I want to see how tough it actually is. I went 18 for 100. Yeah. That's just an insanely low percentage. And then if you think about where that shot is set up on the play field, you're probably only shooting it from the left – sorry, from the right flipper, right? Yeah, well, at least from a cradle. From a cradle. Two balls in the left. Yeah. Now, I wasn't counting that. Okay, yeah, yeah. All 100 shots were from a cradle from the right. Yeah. Which, I mean, that's going to lead to horizontal motion, and horizontal motion has a higher likelihood of draining. So, yeah, I'm not liking that 18% on that shot at all. That's probably a shot in tournament that I would avoid unless that was in a multi-ball. I think it's a sucker shot now.
    78:26
    There's just no way. I've looked at it compared to the way Star Trek is. And Star Trek, especially if you look at the pictures, just it can fall in there. and the way that it's angled, it's going to stay in there. Whereas that angle that, you know what I'm talking about, it's like a little 45 maybe. It's just not there on layer. So it's just I find myself trapping up the ball more times than not by accident with the upper flipper, and I can't get it to fall in. Like it's just not going to happen. But I'm going to try it again. I'm crazy enough. I'm going to go for another 100. I may even go for 1,000 because, I mean, everything else on it is broke right now, and I'm waiting on. Yeah, that's unfortunate. I know there's been a lot of issues out of the box for not just you, but for other Turtles LE owners. So hopefully Stern gets that figured out because the game looks amazing. The layout's awesome. I love the upper left flipper. That's something that I wish was on more games. And, yeah, it just looks like a lot of fun. I'm super excited to hop on one. It's a fun game. I mean, outside of the lair shot, just that one shot or the training shot, whatever we want to call it, I'll call it the training shot. It just, everything else, it goes well together. It really does. I just wish that if they would have, or if Borg would have been able to design that shot just a little bit more accessible, I honestly think it probably would have been a top ten game of all time. Yeah. I can see that. Combination of theme, shot layout, the flow looks amazing. combination of unique shots with the upper flipper uh our package by by zombie yeti was phenomenal so yeah that game has so much going for it it is so sick in person it is i'm pumped to hop on one my friend larry i think got a le some he hasn't unboxed yet so i might go over there once uh i i get my house situation figured out and can move out of my parents house you mean your roommate's house is that what you mean my roommate's house exactly Well, Larry's in for quite the surprise when he unboxes that. I want to know that there could be potential issues out of the box, and we'll have to rectify those. Oh, God. And it's so disappointing, too, because I have to believe that Stern did their Whitewood correctly. I think that's what it's called. Yeah, Whitewood. And I have to think that, obviously, they wouldn't have gone forward if everything was working fine. So it's just I hate that whoever actually assembled that turtle van diverter basically just, for whatever reason, either didn't show up to work or what the hell happened. But I feel terrible for Borg and for Sullivan because, like, obviously that's not their fault. No, not at all. I wonder if COVID had any impact on that and just kind of the factory shutdown and then, you know, how many of these same employees, how many of those people came back. I mean, I have no idea. I'm just throwing stuff out there, but that could be a reason, and maybe it's been fixed, hopefully. I hope so. For the premium people or for people that are just now getting their LE, I really do because it's so weird. It's in a spot where it's below a plastic, so you wouldn't know if something weird was happening. The only reason why I knew is because balls just kept getting stuck up there. I'm like, why is this happening? And sure enough, I found my diverter completely dug into the ramp. I couldn't believe it. But there is still one thing that is off on it. And I'm not sure if they fixed this yet because I know a new code actually dropped tonight as this recording. And what happens is, and I know you haven't played it yet, so I'm trying to find a way to easily explain this. Basically, the right ramp is a multi-ball, right? You hit it four times, it'll start a multi-ball. and it's supposed to go into the diverter with the turtle van if you're on an LE or premium. If you're on a pro, it won't go in there. You don't have to worry about it. Well, what happens is, is in the middle of your multi-ball, the game will automatically start reloading that turtle van. So a ball will go into the shooter lane, automatically plunge up there to get relocked on there, right? Sounds cool in theory. The problem is it's happening in the middle of your multi-ball. So if you hit the right ramp while that's happening, it's going to think it's not going to give you credit. Yeah, no, it will, it'll get stuck in the diverter. Oh, it'll take the ball away. Like it's like, it's just gone. So I find my, yeah, I found myself, I figured that out within game two. And I was like, okay, this is weird. And so now I found myself having to actively pay attention to when that turtle van is reloading itself and not hit a right ramp shot so if you're playing on the fly i i haven't heard anybody else talk about that for whatever reason maybe i'm the only person that's done this but but yeah for some reason it just it just it steals my ball i'm not happy about it that's weird it's crazy i think because i mean i know you know there's always some issues out the box but i mean i go back to my sopranos machine we bought that thing in 2006 i clean it you know every couple hundred plays with just, you know, all the normal novice stuff.
    83:48
    And I haven't had – that thing works like – I literally have had no issues. I mean, the safe doesn't always register anymore, but other than that, I've had no issues. I'm 4,000 games deep into that game. So that's – just kind of, I guess, it's luck of the draw. Well, you know, there's something to that because my Walking Dead and what else do I got? Pirates.
    84:11
    Yep. No issues. ever and now I didn't get those new in box either yeah no issues at all yeah Avengers no issues until literally yesterday or two days ago because I've been the grim reaper for pinball machines locally all my pens have been going down anything I touch even on location they go down yeah I don't know what it is it's I have the magic touch that's one of the things that can hold back pinball from growth is you know the the high cost to buying these machines obviously can be a challenge and And it's really frustrating when you go on location and the games don't play well. So that's another thing that can sway people from getting – it can make people annoyed and just kind of forget about it. Yeah, it's very true. And that's a whole other discussion. Yeah, for sure. Well, we'll talk about that soon. Dom, I want to thank you so much for coming on to the podcast. Interesting discussion. Lots of great insight. No, I appreciate you having me. And like I said earlier on the podcast, I'm fully supportive of everything that you're doing from a pinball standpoint. I think the ideas that we've talked about, you know, in our messages together are amazing. And I look forward to seeing what you do in terms of growing pinball from a competitive standpoint and just, you know, the hobby in general. So if my recommendation is, you know, I just keep up the hard work and I know I'm watching this stuff. and I think everyone else will surely follow soon as the good content continues to come out. Well, I appreciate it, and hopefully once Pinnberg happens again, I'll have you there coaching me and get my ass out of C division. Actually, I'm B restricted now, so we're fine. There you go. We've got to get me out of B division. That's what it is. There you go. Awesome. I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much. Thanks, Travis. I appreciate it too.