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Ep 131: The Princess Bride and is Pinball Failing?

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·58m 25s·analyzed·Feb 23, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.036

TL;DR

Loser Kid explores pinball industry health amid manufacturer struggles and licensing wins.

Summary

Josh Roop and Scott Larson discuss whether pinball is declining or merely experiencing critical reassessment post-pandemic. They examine business troubles at American Pinball, Haggis, and Multimorphic, while praising Multimorphic's Princess Bride release as a major licensing win. The hosts argue that pandemic-driven home purchasing inflated perceived success, and the community is now applying more critical analysis to ongoing industry challenges.

Key Claims

  • 66% of Twippies awards went to Stern in 2024

    high confidence · Scott cites this statistic when discussing award distribution, indicating strong Stern dominance in community voting.

  • American Pinball is not selling machines at healthy operational levels based on word-of-mouth and distributor activity

    high confidence · Scott applies business analysis: 'if you're thinking, Is it an at-risk company? Absolutely, just by the word of mouth. Because if it were a solid company right now, you would see a lot of machines going out, a lot of machines on location, and a lot of distributors pushing their machines.'

  • David Fix appeared on Jeff Teolis' Pinball Profile and discussed investor conversations

    high confidence · Josh references: 'If you haven't listened to Jeff Teolis' Pinball Profile where he had David Fix on, it sounds like they did talk to an investor.'

  • Guns N' Roses is Jersey Jack's best-selling game to date

    high confidence · Josh states: 'I said on our episode it was the best-selling game they've had so far, right?'

  • Black Knight is not the worst-selling Spike 2 game for Stern

    high confidence · Josh notes: 'We were told recently too that Black Knight is not the worst-selling Spike 2 game for Stern.'

  • Led Zeppelin pinball is still selling well despite mixed critical reception

    high confidence · Josh reports: 'I have talked to people behind the scenes that say Led Zeppelin still selling like hotcakes.'

  • Multimorphic lowered P3 Standard Edition cabinet entry price to $11,400 (down from ~$13,000 with module)

    high confidence · Josh notes the pricing strategy: 'Typically it was like thirteen thousand dollars with the module and everything. With module now for a Standard Edition, $11,400.'

  • Josh Kugler moved from American Pinball to Multimorphic for Princess Bride software design

    high confidence · Josh states: 'Josh Kugler is now doing software on this game. He was with American Pinball for Houdini, Oktoberfest, and Hot Wheels.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I think pinball is changing... With now, as we all kind of revert back to our normal thing, we are—we should pretty much be back to a similar mode of life... So we're able to look at it with maybe a more critical eye.”

    Scott Larson @ ~15:30 — Frames the core thesis: pandemic demand was artificial, and post-pandemic critical reassessment is natural market correction, not industry decline.

  • “If your revenue stream is selling pinball machines, it's not too difficult to say there will be challenging days ahead if you are not selling a certain number of machines.”

    Scott Larson @ ~20:00 — Business analysis of American Pinball's viability based on sales velocity and distributor enthusiasm.

  • “My wish for American Pinball: stop releasing unlicensed things. Yes. This is, we're 30 years past that.”

    Scott Larson @ ~35:45 — Direct critique of American Pinball's strategy; argues licenses are necessary for viability in modern market.

  • “The Venn diagram for Princess Bride is huge. It really is... The circle for Princess Bride is huge. So it will sell games.”

    Josh Roop @ ~46:00 — Emphasizes IP licensing strength; Princess Bride's cross-demographic appeal far exceeds typical pinball enthusiast circle.

  • “They got all the assets. They were given everything for the movie. And so if you're a fan of Princess Bride, I think you're going to be very well pleased with what you see.”

    Josh Roop @ ~49:15 — Confirms Multimorphic secured comprehensive movie assets for Princess Bride implementation.

  • “I felt like they were going for that style, right? Like, if you've ever played The Hobbit... I feel like it was kind of that same concept coming into Princess Bride.”

    Josh Roop @ ~51:00 — Positions Princess Bride animations as JJP-quality standard, indicating elevated production value for P3.

  • “If it goes down, then you're limited because—if you can have 10 different modules and if your system goes down, then you can't just—say, oh, well, okay. Um, my Stern game is down. I'm going to go play my JJP or I'm going to go play a different one.”

Entities

American PinballcompanyMultimorphic / P3companyStern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyChicago Gaming CompanycompanyHaggis Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball sales velocity insufficient for healthy operation; word-of-mouth and distributor interest reportedly low despite quality manufacturing

    high · Scott's business analysis: 'if you're thinking, Is it an at-risk company? Absolutely, just by the word of mouth... you would see a lot of machines going out, a lot of machines on location, and a lot of distributors pushing their machines.' Josh notes Fix appeared on Pinball Profile discussing investor conversations.

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts credit Jeff Teolis' Pinball Profile as underappreciated media outlet doing critical interview work and industry insight gathering; advocates for recognition of behind-scenes journalism

    medium · Josh praises Teolis: 'Jeff Teolis' Pinball Profile... Jeff is underappreciated for everything he does in pinball. Scott confirms: 'Jeff is underappreciated... He actually does work. He's very connected behind the scenes.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Loser Kid innovated Twippies coverage format by proactively contacting winners to create video/interview-based episode rather than simply reading results, improving community engagement and timeliness

    high · Josh: 'I reached out to people I know. I'm gonna reach out to the winners and just say, Hey, we're just gonna throw something together and we're gonna release it as an episode.' Result was better reception than expected.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Licensed IP is critical commercial differentiator; American Pinball's lack of licenses is identified as core strategic weakness limiting sales appeal

    high · Scott argues American Pinball must 'find something that's going to connect with people' via recognized IP. Josh contrasts with Guns N' Roses (best-selling JJP) and Princess Bride's massive appeal cross-section beyond pinball enthusiasts.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.175

0:00
thanks for tuning in to loser kick the ball podcast we are on episode 131 i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott it's been it news is like up and down right now but you know there's plenty of games if you want to buy some you know spooky release texas chainsaw massacre looney tunes stern just did jaws there's other games that are being rumored to come out. So if you want to get on those lists or you're looking for those new games, who are you hitting up? I'm going to call Zach and Nicole many a flipping out pinball. They have always been good to work with. Uh, the easiest thing really is to message them. Um, there's a phone number too. Uh, they're always quite receptive. If you're looking for that new game, great. If you're looking for a way of upgrading your game, if you want to shake your motor, if you want to art blades, you know, all those types of things. And I've gotten all my toppers and you know how I always buy the toppers. I've got them all through them too. If you have an older game that you're looking for. So they can fit any budget. So just reach out to them. They've always been friendly to work with. I agree. And when I buy into a company, I don't mind paying a little extra if I'm getting great customer service. And I feel like Zach and Nicole still give you a great price and great customer service. I think it's a great price and great service. So you're actually not sacrificing service by going with their really competitive prices. Yes. So R2D2 is joining us tonight, huh? Yeah. My father-in-law, father-in-law texting. Well, you and I were kind of out of like Internet reception for the past week. Yeah. Yeah. We were both in the Caribbean, but we were in parallel zones. You went you went Eastern Caribbean. I went Western Caribbean. So why don't you fill us in on your quick cruise update? Oh, it was it was great. If you're looking for a cheap cruise, Carnival is where it's at, and I don't drink, and gambling is not really my thing. So it's kind of weird to be on a boat. It's like – Okay, but did you try the escargot? Yes. Actually, they had frog legs. They did not have escargot, but they had frog legs, and they were delicious. They were garlic butter.
2:17
It was like a chicken wing. I think butter and garlic are definitely part of it. Yeah. That's what made it. So you went Eastern. I went Western. I actually so I took the opposite and I ended up on a Disney cruise. But we were taking our in-laws and we needed something that was very, very family friendly, very low key. And it was a great experience. And I got my son to try escargot. So that's one thing that's fun about cruises is you can try all the foods with no like no penalty, really. and escargot is actually pretty good it's yeah but it's but it's butter and garlic just like you said i don't know about your crews but on our crews there's a lot of older people and so they don't season the food like i like a really good seat you know pepper and salt okay and spices and it's like you can definitely tell they're catering to someone that's going to complain if there's oh the cholesterol rows or their sodium intake you have the low sodium diet now our ours was we had a lot of, obviously it's a lot of families. So a lot of people with kids my age and, and they just went to the kids club. So that, that was a lot of fun. And so, yeah, so we were out, out of circulation. We actually recorded right before we left and then we just got back and I've been, I've been running like a madman because when I take a vacation, I end up getting stacked with, uh, with call shift. So I have a call shift tomorrow, so I'm going to be working late. Yeah. I keep looking at my phone. Like I know he's back in the States, but he's not responding yeah it must be work yeah no it's yeah i've been pretty busy oh my goodness i speaking of which so we did record the twippy episode and i want to put some emphasis on this this was a loser kid episode where we were just sharing the twippy results and when will reached out to us he would he reached out to us like a week before voting shut down in january and he just said i just want you to read the the the results on the episode i was like okay as i sat there and thought about i'm like i don't know like that's just it's really weird looking at past episodes uh of the twippies whether it was during covet and they had recorded or the live shows and so i was like i feel really awkward just like pulling up the sheet of paper and be like okay this is human topper so that's when i was like okay i'm gonna reach out to people i know i'm gonna reach out to the winners and just say hey we're just gonna throw something together and and we're gonna release it as an episode and it's kind of funny because like a lot of it was kind of play by ear i never really planned most of this out because i know like dennis like shout out to dennis and zach on the pinball show and thanks for the kind words uh but dennis was like well if we knew in advance we would have promoted it and i was like yeah but the problem is i made the executive decision to release two weeks ago right because really the prime slot honestly i felt like would have been last week to release but i don't want to overshadow the de jenny's and everything joe cherivano had done and then my biggest one of my biggest complaints about the twippies is like you do all the voting and everything in december and then the results are done by january yeah you don't get to see anything till march and i kind of wanted to get pushed out and be like hey this is the results so i wanted it done sooner rather than later and if i waited till we got back it was end of february before this thing would even be showing right you want to still strike while the iron's hot. And I will give full credit. Josh actually put it together. He's the one who reached out. He's the one who gathered it. And we all are aware that this was a challenging year for multiple reasons. Yeah. And it's a format change. We were able to, I'm still very proud of what we did because we were able to get the winners on. And hopefully you guys enjoyed the show. I appreciate that we were able to at least work under challenging circumstances and we'll see how how the show evolves in the future and i appreciate everybody who contributed everybody who submitted and especially josh for doing all the heavy lifting to coordinate and to edit everything well thank you and it was it was really fun to do um the other interesting part i haven't done a lot of this like we just started doing video podcasting this last year right like this is our first year um i've never really the most i'd ever done was like video editing programs back in high school and high school was sadly 18 years ago so it's been a minute and like i'm not very used to youtube and so like the premiere thing kind of made me nervous but i wanted to do that was the nice part about like the twippies even when it was a video like you could have a chat going and discussing stuff in chat and the nice part is i'd ask some people uh to help kind of regulate chat as well and i want to thank those people that helped with that end. Because the problem was, is you and I were traveling at that time. We were, and so we couldn't do it. Yeah, and so, like I said, it was more of an executive decision that I was just like, you know what? I want this kind of just out there and we can go from there. And honestly, it was very well received, in my opinion. It was better received than I thought it would just because of everything that happened with the Twitties this year. So overall, I was happy with the result. Yeah, it was great. Congrats to the winners. a solid year of pinball and looking forward to what this next year comes with. Yep. What, 66% of the awards went to Stern and then congratulations to – it's amazing that Labyrinth took a couple awards home being a brand-new company. It shows that if you have the right concept and if you have the right execution, people will buy into that, right? Absolutely. Which makes me wonder. So, Scott, I kind of pitched this idea to you before we started the episode. But is pinball falling apart or are people just kind of nitpicking and wanting parts of it to fail? What do you think? I think pinball is changing. And when we were during the pandemic, we were looking for any sort of outlet. So having something that we can have in our home, really at home purchases of pinball machines really skyrocketed. Yes. So being able to have something that we typically have been entertained in a group situation that people were able to bring home. It was a it was a lifeline to many people. It certainly was a challenging time for everybody, regardless of what you felt and regardless of which state you lived in or everybody was affected somehow. Yeah. In many ways, we were able to look at all the positives of what pinball was able to bring us in isolation. So in fairness, I would argue that we were probably overestimating the successes and the positives of pinball and maybe looking past some of the challenging aspects of it. Yeah. With now, as we all kind of revert back to our normal thing, we are we're pretty much should be pretty much back to a similar mode of life. I know no one's wearing masks. No one's staying home. No, everyone. Every kid's going to school. So we're able to look at it with maybe a more critical eye. Now, is it possible that people are accentuating now and looking more for the flaws? Yeah. Yeah, probably. It's we're not as starved for pinball attention as we may have been when we were in isolation.

Scott Larson @ ~58:30 — Identifies key weakness of P3 modular system: single point of failure limits gameplay diversification.

The Princess Bride
game
Josh Roopperson
Scott Larsonperson
Jeff Teolisperson
David Fixperson
Josh Kuglerperson
Gerry Stellenbergperson
Colin McAlpineperson
Barry Ourslerperson
Zach Minney / Nicoleperson
Labyrinthgame
Texas Pinball Festivalevent
Twippiesevent
Spike 3product
  • $

    market_signal: Led Zeppelin pinball continues strong sales despite lukewarm critical reception, indicating theme strength transcends designer pedigree and critic opinion

    high · Josh: 'I have talked to people behind the scenes that say Led Zeppelin still selling like hotcakes... And that's what boggles my mind, is because in my opinion, Led Zeppelin doesn't even crack the top 10 of Steve Ritchie.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Josh Kugler transitioned from American Pinball (software: Houdini, Oktoberfest, Hot Wheels) to Multimorphic for Princess Bride development

    high · Josh Roop states: 'Josh Kugler is now doing software on this game. He was with American Pinball for Houdini, Oktoberfest, and Hot Wheels.'

  • $

    market_signal: Multimorphic reduced P3 Standard Edition entry price from ~$13k to $11.4k, suggesting deliberate market positioning to lower barriers to cabinet adoption

    high · Josh: 'Typically it was like thirteen thousand dollars with the module and everything. With module now for a Standard Edition, $11,400. So it's smart to get people in.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Princess Bride positions as family-friendly, evergreen title with appeal across multiple generations and massive IP recognition; expected to be best-selling P3 title

    high · Josh: 'The Venn diagram for Princess Bride is huge... The circle for Princess Bride is huge. So it will sell games.' Scott confirms it 'will sell the most P3 games compared to any other release.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Noticeable increase in critical negativity across pinball community post-pandemic as artificial demand from isolation period recedes

    high · Scott: 'we're not as starved for pinball attention as we may have been when we were in isolation... we start looking for things that we don't feel are where we want to be with a more critical eye.' Josh notes 'there's a lot of negativity in the hobby right now.'

  • ?

    technology_signal: P3 modular system architecture has single-point-of-failure risk: if main console fails, all installed modules become unplayable, unlike multi-manufacturer home collections

    high · Scott: 'if your system goes down, then you can't just—say, oh, well, okay. Um, my Stern game is down. I'm going to go play my JJP or I'm going to go play a different one. So there are challenges to that.'

    • 9:56
    So, unfortunately, a lot of times this is what happens in any hobby, in any sport, that eventually we start looking for things that we don't feel are where we want to be with a more critical eye. Yeah. And I'd like to say that we've been fairly, I want to say we're balanced with a lean towards an optimistic view of what the hobby is. I feel like we're, we will point out like the cons and the pros, right? Like, and so, but I feel like there's a lot of negativity in the hobby right now. Like, let's take example. um you know there's a lot of a lot of slack around the uh american pinball you know the way that was released that was via kale on the eclectic gamers not collected sorry electric bat arcade podcast and it was actually was done sorry via pinball party kale owns also electric bat and he has an art he has a podcast for that if you haven't checked any of those out check them all out but just the way it was presented and whatnot and it kind of like was fanned by the fire and then And like American never like they kind of shut it down. But yeah, anywho. But it seems like so like people were freaking out about American and then like all that stuff that happened with with with Multimorphic just a couple months ago about the 3D printing and whatnot. And then, you know, it just and Haggis has been kind of under fire lately. And then they released a letter which like congrats them for being like transparent and whatnot. But like them saying that like they're slowing down production to refocus and recapitalize. capitalize. And it just seems like there's a lot of like people are pushing this narrative, like just pinball is really terrible right now. Like even Shark No Eat Ball, right? With Stern Pinball, like no one's immune to what's going on. And maybe it's just people being critical of something or being justified in being critical. I don't know, but I'm just like, there's a lot of pessimism right now in the hobby.
    12:02
    Let's talk about some of these topics I brought up. What do you think of the American pinball stuff?
    12:08
    The challenge with any business is you need to look at revenue. So to make a business profitable, you have to bring in revenue, whether that's through services or whether that's through sales. So it is reasonable to look at a company and think you have a company here, and if your revenue stream is selling pinball machines, it's not too difficult to say there will be challenging days ahead if you are not selling a certain number of machines. Yeah. You can also look at the, and this is just the, the finger in the wind test to find out where the wind's blowing. You need to ask where we're involved with a lot of enthusiasts in pinball who buy machines. Yeah. How many of our friends and are the immediate buzz is around purchasing a new American pinball game. and it's not as much as it would be for competitors. So from a business standpoint, if you're thinking, is it an at-risk company? Absolutely, just by the word of mouth, because if it were a solid company right now, you would see a lot of machines going out, a lot of machines on location, and a lot of distributors pushing their machines. Yeah. Since I don't see that, my just my business eye says that they may be going through hard times. I'm not sure if that means now people have started extrapolating on that. People have started saying, well, I'm telegraphing. I'm saying I'm connecting this dot with that dot. And therefore it means the company is up for sale. The company is going bankrupt. The company, just whatever. But those are all speculations, to be frank. Yeah. But the the fact that we have all seen with our eyes is they're not selling as many machines as they probably should to have a healthy, viable current operation. Well, it doesn't even help either that like fix came on our show and then the numbers because we asked how many games are you producing? And I don't think I was so confused by time. I not sure and I couldn even understand which number he was really dialing in on He was talking about having numbers per day that you could do But if you like OK so did you sell to that Because an average year has roughly 200 working days in it. Maybe 300 if you want to add like, you know, some some other stuff. So that would be like, OK, so if you're making a few machine, even a few machines a day, Does that mean you're selling 2,000, 3,000 games? And we just know that they're not selling that many as what they could do. I wish them well. I hope they do provide an alternative option for many people who are not interested in the standard releases that Stern is putting out or even JJP or even the American Pinball remakes. It's a viable alternative. I don't feel they are manufacturing to what they need to. You mean Chicago Gaming Remakes? You said American Pinball Remakes. I'm sorry, yes. Chicago Pinball Remakes. But it does bring up a good point. And here's the thing about American. I think, yeah, like it stinks that they're not making licensed games per se. And the next one, which is rumored to be at Texas Pinball Festival, which is Barry Osler's final game, which was given the nickname Food Truck. I don't know if that's the official name that we're going to see. But, like, that has been one of the major complaints. But the nice part, like, the positives of American, I feel like they're producing games at a good rate. I feel like the quality of the build is good. Yeah, like, you can cite, like, Galactic Tank Force, those targets right below the tank when they first were being produced were not great. They were getting damaged really easily, especially when you're hitting them repeatedly. They cracked down, they fixed that problem, and they sent it out. And I haven't heard any more issues about that. So I feel like American's really good at producing games and fixing when there's something wrong. And so I feel like American should get a little bit of a benefit of the doubt. It is a little bit nervous when you hear that investors coming in or they're shopping out American. Their parent company, Ametron, could be shopping them out. Could be. That's a rumor, right? Yeah. If you haven't listened to Jeff Teelis' pinball profile where he had David Fix on, it sounds like they did talk to an investor, but it was not on the same level, like being shopped out. I don't know. Go listen to your – Go listen to Jeff. Yeah. Go listen to Jeff's interview. And I want to actually put a quick plug in for Jeff Teelis. That man has got to be the most under-estimated.
    17:22
    What's the word I'm looking for, Scott? Jeff is underappreciated for everything he does in pinball. He actually does work. He's very connected behind the scenes. He knows a lot about what's going on. And having David on and interviewing him and giving him a forum so David could actually say in his own words what's going on behind the scenes. scenes is a huge benefit. So I do appreciate everything Jeff does because it is understated compared to other, other media options. Yeah. I know that like very nice things have been said about us lately and I appreciate that, but I'm like, there's other people behind the scenes. I feel like reserve some recognition. I know Jeff isn't the kind of guy who like recognize me. Like he, he's probably the last person to ever say that. Like, but I feel like Jeff does deserve some recognition for what he does for the hobby between pinball profile between commentating and tournaments even just the goofiness of final round i mean the reach arounds has to be one of my favorite award shows that have ever been done for pinball so it is what it is but anyhow the point being go check out pinball profile if you've never checked them out i know there's a lot of new people in the hobby we appreciate you tuning in and uh go listen to pinball profile on david fix also another plug for the new people in the hobby because i got this comment a couple times which is kind of weird people don't know we have a youtube scott and apparently don't bring it up enough we're on the youtubes yeah and if you haven't done this yet run to our youtube and subscribe check us out we are doing this as a video podcast as well just in case you haven't checked us out we're gorgeous we're gorgeous we are attractive men yes if you think our voices are sexy you should just see scott in that loser kid hat you're wearing so okay let's go on to from a purely fans standpoint what is your wish for american pinball for the next year for the next year release food truck people love it uh it it's a game that people enjoy and want to have in their house and they're able to move forward uh raising numbers of production and look to the future of finally getting those licensed themes in um i mean it would be insane to have some of the uh i'm trying to think there were some some licenses maybe we can't discuss them never mind i'm not going to say anything actually okay okay well okay i will actually say my wish for american pinball my wish for American pinball, stop releasing unlicensed things. Yes. This is, we're 30 years past that. What really kept Stern afloat during the dark years, right after pinball 2000 imploded, and they were the last, the last pinball manufacturer standing, was when they, when they were leaning heavily into licenses. So they released Lord of the Rings. They released The Simpsons, even, well, these are like D-list things, but even releasing Monopoly and Wheel of Fortune. Okay. These are not great themes, but they are identifiable themes. And the bottom line is if you need to budget $300 to $500 to buy some sort of market space with an identifiable brand, you need to do that. So that's my first wish. Second wish, you need to make more games. And the bottom line is you need to find something that is going to be a that will connect with people. And this is now they released Hot Wheels. Yes. Hot Wheels was not a great pinball theme for me because you're yes, although it's a well-recognized brand, I don't think that the Venn diagram of pinball enthusiasts and Hot Wheels enthusiasts overlap that much. yeah probably not so you need to find something that's relevant to pinball i'm not saying you need to do a dad rock game because we all know stern and jjp are releasing the dad rock things but there's a reason why they're releasing the dad rock things yeah because they are selling so find something that find a thing that's relevant to pinball and lean heavily into that we know that jjp sold a ton of guns and roses oh yeah games that i said on our episode it was the best-selling game they've had so far right do you think it would have sold as much if it were glam rock no of course not i you have that thing now i'm not saying you need to have a guns and roses thing but find something that's going to connect i don't know try an 80s classic cartoon gi joe hema i i don't know something like that because it's in that era of the demographic of people who are willing to spend money on games yeah you know and my understanding is they are looking in that direction i think the problem is is the timeline it feels like it's forever right i know galactic tank force just released last texas pinball festival yeah but it's almost i i don't know with the designers they have on board and whatnot they can start cranking these out more i hope the timeline escalates or you know right they need to do shorter runs they need to do shorter runs like focus on kind of what's how spooky got off the ground focus on a limited run of something that way you can really keep your focus as a manufacturer to say hey we're going to make 500 of these things boom out the door we're going to make five and if you start outpacing what your demand is, then that's when you start looking for, okay, we're going to do a premium version. We're going to do an unlimited. There's a reason why Stern has their model the way they have it. And Jersey Jack basically has copied that model. Well, and the other thing too is I think American does understand they need licenses. They've heard this for a while now. And I think Barry's next game is a tribute to him. They want to do it for him and then we've heard the next one it technically is a license right like if it is whitewater they're going to have to hit a planetary pinball they're going to have to get the license sure just like stern had to for black knight like black knight wasn't just something they got to make up sure they had to go but that's also that's a very niche like the venn diagram for people who are fans of whitewater and fans of pinball it's a circle within a circle because first you have pinball enthusiasts and then inside pinball enthusiasts you have a fan base for black knight so that's one of the reasons why it was challenging for black knight to sell because even though it was a well-respected theme it didn't branch out it didn't connect other people we know that led zeppelin is a i'm just going to say a decent game it's not a terrible game it's not a great game it's a decent game but you're gonna get people who are led zeppelin fans who are buying this game yeah but and that's what makes me laugh too is like so let's talk about that just for a split second so led zeppelin i'm not a fan of it right like you've you owned it yeah still do it's in my garage but still still doing it but what has shocked me is i have talked to people behind the scenes that say led zeppelin still selling like hotcakes yeah it sells because it's a great theme yep and that's that's what boggles my mind is because in my opinion led zeppelin doesn't even crack the top 10 of of steve richie it probably doesn't crack his top 15 um it just and but the other funny part too is like theme is very integral right like we were told recently too that black knight is not the worst selling spike 2 game for stern And so it is what it is. So I think it just depends. I think Whitewater is a good – it's a good theme. If you're going to be doing original theming, I think American Pinball picked right. If it is Whitewater – Whitewater is still good for them though. So Black Nut may not have been great for Stern because they were looking for higher sales numbers. Correct. But Whitewater would be a great theme for American Pinball because you can be successful on a lower run.
    26:02
    I think it still sells more than Houdini, which is their best-selling game. Yeah, probably. All right, moving on. Speaking of Jeff Teolis and getting David Fix on, he, this week, got on Jerry Selenberg, Josh Kugler, and Colin McAlpine to talk about their newest release, The Princess Bride. what do you think of p3 obtaining this license and making this into i in my personal opinion this game looks amazing yeah uh have you seen this yet scott what are your thoughts on it yeah it's it's great having that theme it the princess bride there are fair few movies that i would rank as perfect movies from start to finish yes i mean princess bride it's a perfect movie yes it is so having that theme it connects across multiple generations it's an accessible layout and it integrates well within their system it would it will sell the most p3 games compared to any other release they have including weird al yeah because we're getting back to the Venn diagram. The Venn diagram for Princess Bride is huge. It really is. I'm surprised no one's done this before. It dwarfs the pinball circle. The circle for Princess Bride is huge. So it will sell games.
    27:35
    There are... Now, if I'm going to nitpick with systems, this is the challenge with having the P3, though, is because there are questions about But with other pinball companies, they have like a, okay, this is a System 11 game or this is a Spike game or this is a White Star game. You have these definite operating systems, which roughly correlate to a gaming system. So like you had the Xbox and then you had the Xbox 360 and then you have the whatever those things are. Xbox One, yeah. Yeah, so they release and you're saying, okay, in that era, the challenge with P3 has always been are you going to – at some point, are you going to have to buy a different pinball machine so you can plug these modules in? Because we all know technology becomes obsolete eventually. yeah they can't well and whether it becomes obsolete because the software can't run it or because you can't get parts anymore right i mean how much more of these chips and stuff are they going to be able to get a hold of right for these p3 rocks when are we going to i mean heck stern is on they're releasing spike 3 here within the next year so that's the wish list of so if i if i giving a wish list of uh for p3 is to be able to find ways of updating your system without having to buy a completely new pinball console for lack of a better analogy However, having The Princess Bride as a home run, having it being a family-friendly game, that is not super difficult just by me looking at it. I haven't played it, but it looks like a family-friendly game. It's awesome. You have Colin McAlpine, who was well respected in the pinball community he is a top player a top uh professional or top competitive pinball players what i mean sponsored and he's he is sponsored i mean he yeah exactly so he's just a great dude like yeah and colin is by the way one of the nicest guys you'll ever meet so having them involved in this is definitely a huge plus and it's a huge step forward. I, this is the type of thing that would really also work well with something like American pinball. If they were to say, Hey, we're going to do a classic movie that people love. So it was a home run for them to nail this down. I'm glad they have it and it will definitely help move units. Definitely. And the one thing that they really pointed out on the podcast, If you haven't listened to it, go listen to it. Pay my profile again.
    30:36
    But they pointed out they got all the assets. They were given everything for the movie. And so if you're a fan of Princess Bride, I think you're going to be very well pleased with what you see. The one thing that stood out to me, the animations, I felt like were above and beyond what they have been in the past. I feel like it's almost like a JJP quality. which I know that like that's high praise. That's high praise. I felt like they were going for that style, right? Like if you've ever played the Hobbit and it's just the way that the Hobbit's presented on the, on the back glass and stuff like that. I feel like it was kind of that same concept coming into princess bride. Also, we have speaking American pinball. Josh Coogler is now doing software on this game. He was with American pinball for Houdini, Oktoberfest and Hot Wheels. I don't know if they ever said why he was left, but you know, People change jobs all the time. I'm not going to overanalyze that.
    31:38
    But we actually had him on episode 36 before. I still feel bad for American at that point because they released Hot Wheels and then COVID happened. Yeah, it was. Boom, boom. Yeah.
    31:51
    But, no, I'm really excited for Jerry and company there at Multimorphic. And this game, like you said, it is an evergreen title. and uh one thing to do too is i think it's smart that they have lowered the the entry point if you're buying a cabinet so typically it was like thirteen thousand dollars with the module and everything uh with module now for a standard editions 11-4 so it's smart to get people in and then you know if they want to purchase because if it were me i'd buy princess bride and Weird Al. And just say, ship them both together.
    32:30
    Heck, even Final Resistance. I think it's one of those things, once you get into P3, you'd be very happy and stay there.
    32:37
    I've never personally owned one, so I guess I can't say yay or nay. It's still in the... It's a good option for people with limited space. There are still reasonable doubters out there just because this is one challenge with having a module is, or sorry, a pinball console. I'm just going to start calling it that because that's basically what it is. You plug in a new game. Blow in the cartridge and plug it in. Yeah. By the way, that didn't work. Just in case you're wondering. It says that actually did more damage to the game.
    33:19
    But if it goes down, then you're limited because you, if you can have 10 different modules and if your system goes down, then you can't just say, Oh, well, okay. Um, my stern game is down. I'm going to go play my JJP or I'm going to go play a different. So there are challenges to that. However, it, it's a still a great, it feels like a pinball machine. It really does. It's, it's a different version of a pinball machine, but it is pinball.
    33:50
    So it, If it's something you're interested in, this is a stunning title to bring you into their fold. And I'm jealous for those that are going to be at Texas Pinball Festival because this will be there. Jerry said they're going to have rows of them there. Maybe not rows, but they said they're going to have quite a few there. And so I think it's going to be the one that everyone wants to play at a festival this year. And so speaking of festival, which is we're four weeks away. Holy crap. Who else do you think reveals? We've already had spooky with Texas Pinball Festival. Pinball, coming at you. Texas Pinball Massacre.
    34:35
    That'd be kind of funny, actually. Stern just did Jaws. Here's the reveal from Multimorphic. Do we see something from JJP? I say no they're still making Elton and Elton it is a great game it's that would be a fun game to have but there's no way they're going to do that right on the heels of Elton John yeah Haggis well we can already talk about it we can talk about Haggis yeah they released a letter recently stating They're going to have to slow down production and recapitalize and kind of refocus what they're doing. So I assume they're not going to have anything at Texas Pinball Festival, especially since they haven't started producing centaurs yet.
    35:27
    Yeah, it's the letter. I appreciate that they are being up front with challenges. That certainly helps out.
    35:37
    They have the same problem in a different way that American pinball has. Yeah, they're not making enough. They're not making enough. And the challenge that we have with them is they're also have the additional challenge of being a foreign company. And they are marketing outside of the mecca of pinball, which is Chicago.
    36:04
    They're dealing with all sorts of manufacturing issues down there. They're also – their letter, while I appreciate them being up front with it, it tells me that the money is tight.
    36:22
    And they cannot leverage buying power to minimize costs. I mean, that's what Stern does. We've talked about this before. If Stern wants to make a thousand games, they order parts for a thousand games. If you're making 10 games, you're not going to get the volume discount that you get for a thousand games. So you're going to be having to ask more money for your games. you're competing on the same level just like the game right behind you the question in everybody's mind is does this does this cost is it worth a godzilla premium and that's kind of my standard analysis on pinball and there's a lot of games that you're not going to get the same package that you're going to get from a Godzilla premium. But that Godzilla is writing on a well-oiled machine that Stern is in being able to manufacture a super high-quality game for a lower price, and it's really hard for these smaller companies to compete. Yeah.
    37:30
    And this tells me that they are struggling to compete on the same level with that letter. Now, it's still good that they're admitting that, hey, there are some challenges here. I wouldn't say it's a red flag, but I will say that it tells me the company is going through some evolution right now. Yeah. And we wish them the best. I know that there has been some issues with the Fathom runs and whatnot. And I mean, I guess everyone it's hard, right? Because like when someone has a problem, it seems like they go to social media and the amplified. And I know like within heating and air conditioning. So I've been doing this for almost 20 years now.
    38:12
    Truly only about 0.07% of the product has an issue with out of the box. Right. But the problem is, is that 0.07 of people might voice their distaste on Google or. and so the problem is it makes the issue look bigger um but you know so long as they're taking care of those issues and i i sure hope they are i think you give them the benefit of the doubt i i will just listen to eclectic gamers podcast with tony and dennis and they they did a really great job on talking about this haggis if you haven't listened to it we do recommend you go there and give them a listen um but they give really in-depth about the letter and i agree with dennis the best thing that haggis could do is move production to america and look at david vaness he's from new zealand right but barrels of fun is in houston so he understands that you know you've got to have it in a place where you can get product because this is where it's built this is where all the all the parts and everything right and so i really think that's the biggest challenge is being in Australia, it's hard to, especially where you're, if you are buying product as the money comes in, it's hard because it's like, well, the money came on in, so now I can buy the stuff to build it. That could take two to three months and yada, yada. You're going to have a lag. You're going to have a significant lag. And with pinball, You have a steel ball flying around a machine with switches, plastic, glass, screws, metal. Something is going to break. That's physics. So you need to find a way, not necessarily. There's a reason why you can make video game consoles across the world and ship them here, because for the most part, they're not mechanical. Yeah. but you you need to have a way of repairing a mechanical game and the best way to repair mechanical game is to have your manufacturing facilities in the area that most of the players of that game are yeah so all right speaking back to texas pinball festival so obviously haggis probably won't have anything there is there any other company that we've that we've missed i know like pinball ventures did talk about sorcerer i highly doubt that'll be down there ninja eclipse is probably as far as it's going to get i highly doubt that turner pinball is going to reveal anything right um i feel bad am i missing anyone there's been the rumor twilight zone yeah we don't know if it's cgc or if this is a brand new company my understanding is it's not cgc making twilight zone yeah so i don't know who who that would be um it could be CGC better not be revealing anything at Texas Pinball. Yeah, because CGC is – they're definitely still – they're still working on the Pulp Fiction. CGC has going for it that they have a quality reputation. Yes. And in fairness, I would say they probably have the best quality reputation in the business right now. I agree.
    41:25
    Now, there is challenging with – okay, so let's go through them. Stern just released Jaws. It's not going to do anything. JJP just did Elton John. American Pinball, yes. Food Truck, probably. CGC, no. They're still stuck in the loop of making Pulp Fiction. So those are the four major ones. So let's go to the smaller companies. You have Spooky with Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre. You have, we talked about the smaller boutiques, the Turner, Haggis, P3.
    42:11
    I'm sorry if I'm missing anybody. Labyrinth was at Barrels of Fun, already did Labyrinth. They're not going to be showing anything here because that was just revealed at Expo. So this Texas is going to be completely different than last year. There's going to be a handful of new games there this year. Yeah, it's not going to be the same. It's not going to be the same. Last year was a crazy feeding frenzy of so many games, but this one will be a little more reserved. Yep. And speaking of, because, you know, Jaws is out now. Have you got to play Jaws yet? I have not because I went on my – I flew out. I flew to Florida. We were gone for a week. I didn't fly back until Sunday, and I've been working nonstop until – and today is our Thursday. So I've been working nonstop, and it's about a 40-minute drive for me to go and play Jaws. You did, though. You were able to go in early before your flight, and you were able to play. So talk about it. I totally lucked out. So, like, our flight was going out Friday morning. our our airport in my town is having like some revamping stuff and whatnot so we actually had to fly out of salt lake but i was like i wonder if kiddos is getting a jaws because they're really good to get they do that our local location a good friend owns it or at least but yeah puts the pinball machines there yep and mike iceman he mike lund yeah yeah mike lund uh so i was like i wonder if Keto is going to do it And we have a local chat called SLAP Salt Lake Area Pinballers And I look at it the day before we supposed to lo and behold yep it says show up to kudos yes so i was like i going so uh we went and it was just me the nice part is it was a thursday night so it wasn't packed at all i had the game all to myself i dropped in probably 10 bucks worth so it was like you know 10 games or whatever and whatever okay go on i i want to point out if you haven't listened to triple drain you should listen to their episode i after listening to it i feel like travis hit the ball or the nail on the head this game is like traditional pinball like nothing feels safe and even the shots that are safe come screaming back at you so fast it's like what just happened and so i i've really enjoyed the game it is hard uh it is it's one of those games i'm like i can't wait to get at home so i can breathe a little bit and like kind of slow down and be like what is going on here because the it it's kind of overwhelming you know how ones are like your first 20 games on it you're just trying to get your bearings like right what does this do what does that do um the shots really great the the harpoon shot if i remember if that's correctly so if you're looking at the play field on the left side uh there's a shot that goes up around it's like kind of like an orbit uh and it comes back right back to your flipper real quick but about midway down straight above where the stand-up targets are or the or the drops depending on what version you're playing there's just a little gate that you can hit it through and that shot is so satisfying to hit and but it's almost It's maybe not as narrow as the Jurassic Park shot, but because of the weird angle, you're shooting pretty much straight across that play field. And it just – it's so good. I love – the thing I was thinking before I was going to play this is you see the captive ball up the middle, right? You see either Bruce is sitting on top of it or he's sitting underneath the boat, right? And I'm like, this shot is going to be so easy, just a repeatable hit. I'm like it's going to be kind of just another bash toy what shocked me is playing the game I felt like it wasn't as easy to dial in like it's the shots a little smaller than I assumed I thought it would be more of like a attack for Mars where I feel like attack for Mars you're you aim for the center you're hitting the center where I feel like you kind of had to because it's a captive ball you're hitting that's not really in the same spot every time yeah it's it's almost a kinetically moving captive ball yep so it's it does add that variability. So overall love the game. I'm not going to give it like an official grade yet because like 10 games, I feel like I still first impression, first impressions, fresh and first impressions. Um, if you're expecting this to be like Godzilla, I would tamp your expectations. I feel like Godzilla is a little easier to play a little more forgiving. I feel like jaws is not, I feel like jaws. It's probably in the same realm as iron maiden. Okay. Um, Because I feel like Iron Maiden, all the shots on Iron Maiden are kind of dangerous, right? Yeah, there are some easy shots in Iron Maiden where you're shooting up to the Pharaoh's tomb. So Eddie, and that's the straight up the middle shot. The question I have is on, and we've talked about this before, Elwin has that mixture, that secret sauce of being able to have some easy shots, some hard shots, and definitely giving priority scoring to the harder shots. Are there also easy shots in this game, or do they feel all difficult? So there's easy shots. So one of the easier shots is there's a ramp. There's like a 180 ramp right up the middle. Okay. But the thing is, it's easy to hit, but it's a straight shot back to your flipper. Like it comes back at you pretty quick. And like I said, the orbit on the left, I don't know if that's what you're going to call it. It's a fairly easy shot to hit as well, but it's also one of those things too where if you hit it clean, it's coming back to the flipper really quick. one thing that Travis Murray did point out you're going to have to get used to holding up a flipper and just ski jumping the ball to get it under control so it's a kinetic pass it's coming through the end lane and jumping over to the other one so you're catching it on the opposing flipper you're going to have to learn how to do that because this game is so fast the other thing that shocked me too you know the fishing reel to the right of the captive ball if you do not hit that clean, it kind of dribbles it back out to the center of the drain. And so that's one thing too, like you're going to have to. Which is funny because it's in the right third of the game. Like it's not, if you're looking at the play field, the shark is in the center third. The shark is kind of on the right of the center third. And then there's the chum bucket and right between that is a shot. So that's, yeah. Well, actually, I'm sorry. That is the shot. So you basically have two shots up the middle. You have the kinetic ball, and you have the chum bucket. So I felt like if you hit the left side of the reel, and it didn't go in through clean, and dribble back down, it still came towards a flipper. But if you hit the right side of the reel, and it comes back at you, it dribbles it right down the center. Actually, sorry. I did misspeak. It's North Beach that's the shot that's in the center third. The chum bucket is in the left one third. Yes. and so it's one of those it's also could be the way the game was set up on location dan and mike are usually pretty good to set these games up so they're fair but yet hard right away because they do a lot of competition there so um seriously this game is awesome i like that uh quinch shack when you start those it's your your hunting sharks these are modes that play as you're playing the game so like so many pop bumper hits so many spinner spins and So it's nice to get one of those started and then keep playing the game. I like that concept of there's something running in the background that's still awarding me for stuff I'm already doing. Okay. Overall, fantastic. Can't wait for mine to show up.
    50:13
    Are you getting the pro or the premium? Premium, 100%. Other thing, too, I have heard this complaint where the shark fin is.
    50:24
    Okay. I think you can re-level that area. so I didn't notice it but there have been people who have been complaining that these have been put on location they haven't been re-leveled or whatever and the ball kind of redirects because it's a divot there and so if it's not set up just right I think people get frustrated at the fact that I just shot that straight and it should have hit that shot clean but it kind of ricocheted off the divot of the shark fin area so that's one thing to look at just adjust that and I think you'll be happy okay yeah it'll be it'll be interesting because this is going to be one of those that has uh this is the first element as we've mentioned before that actually has an identifiable upper play field yep so it is going to play differently between the pro and the premium yep so i if you notice on that premium that play field it's shots it's like you're up there for a split second it's You can't stay up there. You can't stay. You can't hang out up there. And I feel like it adds to the gameplay instead of slowing down the gameplay. Yeah. In fairness, I think it's appropriate that there is a little bit of danger associated with the theme. Yep.
    51:43
    Like there's, you know, in Godzilla it seems that, yeah, there's danger, but it almost feels like the danger is slowly coming upon you. Yeah. You're playing as Godzilla. I mean, you're destroying cities. Like, you are the beast, right? You are the beast, yes. And so that's why it's a little easier, because to stomp Tokyo is not as hard for Godzilla as it would be for Bruce, I guess. Right, that's probably true. I would love to see Bruce stomp Tokyo, though. I would as well. A lot of kaiju and whatnot going on there. That should be Jaws 5. that's originally what Jaws 19 was supposed to be in Back to the Future exactly the 3D Jaws yeah man that's why he came out of the theater the way it was because it was going to be Kaiju and he was going to be a giant Kaiju that just showed everything we figured out the plot anything else we want to discuss Scott before we get no I'm sad that I'm not going to Texas this year this is sadly the second year in a row that I will miss it I went two years ago because I have a prior commitment to have a friend who invited me to a tennis tournament. So I'm going to go to that. But I am still planning on going to Expo.
    52:56
    And I'm anticipating – this is one, if there's a positive way I can view Texas Pinball Festival, is that there will be less reveals at this Texas than there were last year. I felt really left out last year. However, I'm anticipating there will be a lot more to see at Expo this year, and so I'm really excited to see that. So my consolation prize is, unfortunately, I can't go to Texas, but I will be going to Expo. If you haven't gotten your hotel room yet for Expo, you might want to because this is the 40th anniversary. It's going to be huge. They've added an extra day. Yeah. Double the size. Yeah. Yeah, it's – I'm excited to see – Rob Burke has been talking about this during Expo 39. And so he's told me some of the concepts they're coming up with. If you've been wanting to go to Expo, this is the year. I find it funny – not to pick on Dennis, but Dennis has made it very clear that he's like, don't waste your time at Expo. We're going to kidnap Dennis this year. and Tony, you and I are going to go to Dennis' house, ring the doorbell, and capture him like they did on Nightmare Before Christmas. They capture Santa and just put him in a bag and we're going to take him to Expo. I think the problem is when we went to Expo the year that Eclectic Gamers went with us, it was right after COVID.
    54:18
    It was shaky as is. No one knew exactly what was going to be happening. And so I think it has just gotten better and better every year. I was very happy with Expo last year. I felt like it was awesome. It was good. I can't wait to... Maybe they'll take my concept. I was pitching an idea to Rob because he's taking in ideas right now. They want to do something unique. Do you ever remember seeing... Maybe this is more your generation. Maybe not. When they parked the car in the middle of the mall and everyone had to put their hand on the car. you know oh geez i yeah and the last person with their hand off got the car or the last person with their hand on it yeah you get like a 30 minute bathroom break or whatever yeah but do that with a pinball machine how many people would show up and do that starting night one oh my gosh yeah that that okay pinball events are stinky enough we don't need to have some unshowered people there who are there for 72 hours trying to win a godzilla premium or a jaws pro or something like that There's like 50 people have signed up. You've got 50 people to switch to and try to keep their hand on a Jaws. We know if it was a Venom, there would only be like five people. Oh, wow. That's not fair. It's not fair. I'm sorry. It was an easy jab. I apologize. Brian, Eddie, you're awesome. I actually enjoy Venom. I wouldn't own it, but I did. When I played it, it was a good game.
    55:46
    Any. it all depends what game you're you're giving away that's right that's right yeah actually they're just gonna they're gonna blow off one of those uh wwe uh you know those gold the with the gold trim that they were given out forever because no i felt so bad so i there's a guy in my there's not very much pinball in my area so when i find someone that owns pinball oh like hey what you But there's one person here in town, the only game they own is WWE. Yeah.
    56:20
    Oh, yeah. I asked him, like, what's wrong with the side? The decal has been peeling off for years now. And I'm just like, first off, it's a WWE. And then it looks like it's, like, crap. It's an LE, and it's falling apart. I'm like, oh, that sucks. So bad for you. Time.
    56:39
    Oh, my goodness. Well, this was awesome, Scott. It's great to have you have you have a mic. No, it's good to be back and good to be back in town for a while. And I am looking forward to well, I'm really looking forward to seeing what is revealed from Texas. So I hope that there are a few people who are going that know us and they can actually give us I can live vicariously through you. So I'd appreciate that. Yep. Once again, thanks for those that reached out and shared their comments with the last episode. we hope that you did enjoy it uh there was a lot of a lot of love around the episode um if you want to get a hold of us we are loser kid pinball podcast at gmail.com we have a youtube did you know that i do know that we're on it right now youtube.com slash at loser kid pinball it's where you do have to put the at sign in there it's kind of weird hey who if you want to get a hold of us Facebook, X, Instagram. It's all at LoserKidPinball. Hit us up. We respond best on Facebook and whatnot.
    57:43
    But like I said, if you have any questions or you have some really crazy ideas that we should be pitching at Expo, send them in via LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. Maybe we'll read them out. Make some really wild ones, right? Like, I don't know. Yeah. I'm not even... This is family-friendly show. It's family friendly. We have to keep it clean. All right, Scott, give us the last word. Okay, you know what? I want you, your homework assignment is to go to Texas Pinball Festival and let us know what you're looking forward to. Yes.