Hey, welcome everyone to Today in the Scene by Indie Arcade Wave. I'm Joe, your host, and here on In the Scene, we dive into what's happening in the arcade space from new arcade developers, arcade owners and operators, pinball, and just news in the space in general. Now, if you're looking to add a new Stern to your collection, I did partner with Compulsive Pinball. We'll talk about that a little bit later because I'm really excited to jump into this week's episode. We just got an announcement yesterday that Stern is creating a Pokemon game. But the Pokemon that I really fell in love with was displayed at Pinball Expo this last year. And it's been out for a couple years. This isn't like a new thing. Anybody that's been to Pinball Expo has probably seen this. It just had some updates this last year. And I'm fortunate enough to sit down with the brother duo at Pinsanity, Owen and Luke Underwood. How you guys doing? Good. Good. Hey, good. Thanks for having us. Hey, good. Thanks for having us. Of course. Of course. I'm I'm excited to Of course. Of course. I'm I'm excited to to talk about it. I was I was telling you guys before the recording, it was definitely my most played game at Pinball Expo. Um, the theme is definitely a dream theme for me. I grew up on it. I've got like almost every game, first gen, first three gens for the Game Boy. I got all the Gamecube games. I've I've been playing Pokemon my entire life. I had the cards, lost all my hollowos. I don't know what happened to them, but that's what growing up is. You just you that's what growing up is. You just you lose that stuff. So, um, let's just jump right into you guys. Like, who is Owen? Who's Luke? Um, how did you guys get into pinball in the first place? Yeah. So, I guess I'll start. So, I got Yeah. So, I guess I'll start. So, I got into pinball via Space Cadet, like the Windows 7 or something video game. Um, absolute classic. absolute classic. Yeah, that's where I like learned that Yeah, that's where I like learned that pinball was more than just, you know, randomly flipping. Once I learned that there were like rules to the code that really got me to want to learn more. And so then after that, whenever I went to an arcade, the only games I was really interested in playing was pinball machines, not so much like the, you know, shoot them up screens and things like that. Um, and then I got back into it back right before co I I got a Dr. Dude. Um, and that's kind of, I would say, Luke's introduction. Yeah. Um, and then we decided, hey, let's try Um, and then we decided, hey, let's try and build one of these. I never really played before. Well, I I never really played before. Well, I played a couple times at arcades, but never got into it before. Owen brought the doctor dude home and then it was just kind of an instant obsession, I'd say. Yeah, it it hooks you pretty fast. I Yeah, it it hooks you pretty fast. I mean, I had I had played in the past, never was really all that impressed by like, you know, the the the like 90s stuff, the Williams and everything like that. And then got a little bit older, started developing my own arcade games. Uh took one game on tour, got out to Texas, and was absolutely hooked. I mean, I think we played more pinball than anything that that week. and we were supposed to be showing off our game. So, you know, good and bad there. But, um, we came back and we're in love with it and and I've I've been interested ever since. So, um, this is my first expo. It was really cool to go. Um, I know that you're working with Barrels Now, Luke, which is super cool. I I had no idea when I walked up to the game and played it. I just I spoke with Jeff from Dirty Pool. He's like, I think somebody that I know made that. And I was like, uh, okay. We'll see. We'll talk about it. And And ended up being you. And you came over. We talked for a minute and it was it was cool to meet you. So, let's talk about the process of creating the game. Like, you said that you had that Dr. Dude, you kind of decided like, oh, let's try to make one of these. How did you land on the theme for Pokemon? And what was it like in those early stages before you really had the cabinet together? Like, how did you start uh prototyping this? Yeah, so Pokemon actually came late as a Yeah, so Pokemon actually came late as a theme into it. So, the Pokemon was our second game. So, our first game was actually a League of Legends game. And when we built that, we had the theme and the layout in mind. Um, but we kind of wanted to change that for our next game. So, we wanted to just build a layout and then try and work our theme and rules back into that layout. So, we start just with like 2x4 playing fields basically. um cut it down to size and then we prototype like ramps and stuff and then we just put everything on the game, see if it works and then when it doesn't work do a new iteration. Yeah, I'd say I mean I think a lot of Yeah, I'd say I mean I think a lot of the online advice is to start flipping I guess as soon as possible. So, we didn't we did a maybe a little bit of like card stock and like drawing out and that kind of thing, but we quickly moved to getting some really like simple uh pieces in solid works so that we could um cut it out and you know print a playfield and start flipping and then we just make changes based on that. And like I said, we didn't really have an idea. We wanted to only focus on making like the most flow flowy game possible. So, I think that was, you know, that, yeah, we didn't have the theme in mind going into the game. That's interesting because I've I've That's interesting because I've I've talked to uh to a couple uh home brewers at this point. I I spoke with Ed Owens and Kyle Smith who both already had the theme pretty much in mind before they started everything, right? Like they they kind of picked out their IP, what they were going to do. Um pulled out kind of like important people and important scenes from the movies or or the show and and went that direction with it. It's It's interesting that you guys just went straight flow, figure out the theme later. And League of Legends is another great one. I've played an ungodly amount of League of Legends and been [snorts] sober for about two years from it now. Um, but yeah, it uh that's that's another good theme for a pinball. I mean, lots of characters, lots of options, lots of modes. So, it would it would be a very deep game. Um, I I love the idea that you were just like, "Let's get it flipping. Just just build it out in Solid Works, have something cut out, something we can actually play and see." What was that process like? like once you got it flipping um did you just start throwing ramps on it to see what was fun? Like how did you design that back playfield? Because the the vast majority of your cabinet, it's quite open in the middle and it's a lot of ramps in the back. Yeah. So the layout was a lot Yeah. So the layout was a lot constrained by we decided we wanted four flippers. So if you have four flippers, the middle of the playfield has to be open or else the shots are just going to be blocked by the other shots. So yeah, Luke already mentioned that we wanted a super open, super flowy game, but one of our original like design constraints is we wanted to be able to combo with the upper flippers. Um, and you can still do that in our current version, it's not at all really how we imagined. Um, but just having the four flippers, that was big in terms of limiting where where things could go and just wanting to keep that like combo heavy. So, we wanted big open shots that you could combo like forever essentially and then four flippers that could pass to each other. So, most of what we were working on was just trying to get the layout so that you could hit all those shots and the balls wouldn't rattle out. Yeah, I think that's that's an Yeah, I think that's that's an interesting I'm I'm just looking at like the pictures that I took at Expo of your playfield to kind of get an idea of of how you laid all this out. And uh I loved the, you know, incorporating all the elements and the gym badges and the Pokedex. And how did you guys cram so much into this game? Like it feels incredibly well thought out. It's there's a lot of depth to it. And I feel like you hit almost every major thing from Pokemon. Like the the first 151, like you hit the gym battles, you I feel like there's like an Elite 4 in here, isn't there? Something like that. Uh we called it Victory Road, but yeah, if you beat all the gym badges, you go to Victory Road, which is like on the way to Elite 4. Uh but we didn't actually incorporate those battles uh with the Elite 4 members. So, we were worried about specifically for Elite 4, we didn't want this to just be battle battle battle battle battle because we were we thought it might get repetitive. So, we limited the battles to just being with the rival uh Gary. Um asked you, how do we cram so much in? We're kind of fortunate that Pokemon has so much IP to pull from and my introduction to Pokemon was Pokemon Crystal. So, I played that probably at least a thousand hours like back when I was a kid. Um, so a lot of the code and rules are inspired by the Game Boy version of Pokemon and that had so much to it. Um, and we we are also fortunate that our layout kind of was able to handle like a deep rule set. Um, yes. So, it all kind of just worked out. But we tweaked, you know, we have brainstorming sessions where we just talk about rules. I mean, we also learned a lot because we I mean, we also learned a lot because we brought like a a version one that we call it to Expo 2023 and that was a lot more bare. And I think I mean, [clears throat] minus just how the shots felt and like what was breaking. We learned like a lot about what we wanted to add because we didn't have like a Pokédex. We didn't really have like Gyarados in there or like there's just a ton that we were able to add in after we watched a bunch of people play in 2023. Um, which helped. Yeah, getting feedback is huge. Like Yeah, getting feedback is huge. Like every time we take it to a show, we figure out things we want to change, so [laughter] it's kind of tough. Yeah, we've already got a another list Yeah, we've already got a another list of of things we want to do. If we ever make like another playfield for Pokemon, we've got a list of changes that we want to do. Hey guys, quick break. If you want to Hey guys, quick break. If you want to support the channel, one of the best ways to do that is purchasing your next pinball through Compulsive Pinball. They're helping bring some amazing Stern pinballs to players everywhere. And the next game that they're releasing, you're not going to want to miss. Whether you're looking to add a machine to your home collection, or you're an arcade owner or operator, Compulsive Pinball has you covered. They offer special pricing for operators and can handle routing operations for businesses all over the East Coast, as well as down in Orlando, Florida. Check out compulsivepinball.com for your next stern and let them know that you heard about them from Indie Arcade Wave. Yeah, I mean it it sounds like you guys Yeah, I mean it it sounds like you guys obviously are very passionate about it. You're continuing to develop it. I mean, taking it to shows and getting feedback is is one of the biggest things that that has helped us with developing games and I feel like both Ed and Kyle said the same thing. They were like, if your game is is just a whiteboard or just a white wood and you've got, you know, you got ramps on there and it shoots and it flips, like just bring it to a show. just let people know what stage you're at, what you're looking for. They're going to play it. They're going to give you feedback. You'll know what to do next, right? It's it becomes this whole community thing where everybody weighs in a little bit. Everybody makes little tweaks to the game and it it really brings it all together. And that's what I've seen in the at least in the homebrew community and seems really cool. Very very similar to the the indie arcade development studio. Um the Pokedex is great. That Gyarados ramp is so cool. Um I'm curious as to how you guys did everything, right? I mean, talking to other pin uh home brewers, like they some people will, you know, go on Fiverr and get an artist. Some people will have a friend that they know as an artist do some art or have somebody who has a 3D printer do the 3D printing. Like, how did you bring everything together? And and who else helped you with it? Yeah. So, most of it was done in-house. Yeah. So, most of it was done in-house. So, like we did our own playfield art for this version. Um, and do our own like uh clear coating and inserts which are epoxy. Um, but we did outsource a few things. So, we actually met Chris Johnson at Expo 2024 or 2023, I forget which expo, but um, back then we had just a plain yellow cabinet, which was really boring. And he had also played Pokemon. He was really interested in it and he came and talked to us and then after expo we had his his number and we just contacted him and said, "Would you be interested in doing the cabinet art?" So, Chris Johnson did a great job on the cabinet art. I think it makes the game a lot more attractive like when it's just sitting in a in a showroom. And the Gyarados ramp we or the the VUK we also outsourced which I didn't even think would be possible. So we had just a VUK just like a curved tube. And I went on Fiverr and I just like sent out a few messages like we want this to look like Gyarados and have this tube inside. And I like I don't know if it's possible but we definitely can do it. We don't have like sculpting expertise at all. Um, but we found this guy and he did an incredible job. I cannot believe a that it worked and b like how good it looked. Yeah, it worked like straight off the Yeah, it worked like straight off the print. He kind of just understood exactly what we meant and it fit like I was like there is no space back there. I was like it's not going to work. If you try to build Gyarados in there, the proportions are going to be weird. It's not going to fit in the game. But it just Yeah. First try. Unfortunately, the whiskers break. So Unfortunately, the whiskers break. So it's a it's a whiskerless Gyarados. But clean shape. clean shape. Yeah. And I don't think I mean between Yeah. And I don't think I mean between the two of us like we like he he he has a coding like we like he he he has a coding background and I have like an engineering background. So between the two of us we can kind of get a lot of the things done. And I think our biggest pitfall is anything artistic. Yeah. For sure. That's why it's helpful Yeah. For sure. That's why it's helpful to have IPs too because it takes a lot off your plate. Yeah. I mean, especially in the Yeah. I mean, especially in the beginning, you know, when you're kind of formulating the rule set, formulating what the art could look like, what the playfield could look like, what kind of shots you're going to have. Like, you can you can just look at Pokemon and be like, "Okay, there are all these different types. There are these different gyms. There are these different starters, and it gives you kind of a path to move forward with." Um, or you can just plug it right into the playfield you already have, kind of like you guys did. Uh, that's that's really really cool that that Gyarados worked out. The whiskers, you know, you you got to sacrifice some things, right? Not not everything's going to fit in there. It is a very tight spot back there. You got I mean what you got three, four, four shots that are like right there in that area and then you got a ramp next to it. You got Jesse next to it. Like there's a lot going on in that corner. So the fact that it fit all is very very impressive. Um [clears throat] I've I've heard a lot of people breaking into the the pinball like the major manufacturers, right? Barrel Stern, whatever it may be, by building homebrews andor kind of being in that in that space. So, did that help you, Luke, get in with with barrels to to get a job with them? Oh, 100%. I don't think I mean, David Oh, 100%. I don't think I mean, David jokes that this was the Pokemon was like my resume to get in there. Um, and I think it was like my senior year of college was coming to an end and I had to like start looking for jobs and I didn't I couldn't really see myself doing anything but working in pinball. So, I just started reaching out and um David got back to me really quickly. Um I emailed him and I think we were on the phone later that day. He was just talking to me about like what kind of um jobs and like what what kind of things he would have me doing there and do you want at the end he's like are would you be willing to like move to Texas if this were to go through and like yeah I need to be doing balls. So I think [snorts] that's just kind of how it started. Um so he him and I think a couple of the engineers there knew about Pokemon which helped a lot. Um yeah because they played it at expo as yeah because they played it at expo as well right? Yeah. Um, so that's that's how it started. Um, I think it's funny that I knew that they were like a Solid Works house and I think it it was very fortunate because I I I had interned at American Pinball like two or three years ago and I was using like Fusion 360 and um I was like watching the designers and they were all using Solid Works. I'm like one day I'm going to have to know how to use Solid Works if I want to do this. So I made like the switch that summer even though I wasn't doing any design for them. So that's kind of just a lucky lucky choice. Yeah, I mean that that gave you a lot of Yeah, I mean that that gave you a lot of leverage. It it it's true. I mean like if you look at Jack and Elwin, I mean I guess other other than Jack having, you know, the social media presence that he had and already streaming so much pinball, like that was also how they got into like that was that was their like push over the edge of like, okay, you have a good game, you built the game, we can see it. And obviously your persistence with Pokemon of of developing it over the course of I mean three, four, you know, you took it to three shows at this point, four shows, whatever it may be. Um, and it's just gotten better every single time. They see different iterations and and different changes. And it it played very very fluidly. Like you're talking about the four flippers, right? Like you could very easily hit those shots with the flippers. You had multiple shots that you could take. It didn't feel like those upper flippers were stuck to like if you get to this, you get one shot and you got to hit that shot. That's all you got. you had different angles to take there. So, let's talk a little bit about the iterations over time. Like, obviously, you said you didn't have any art the first time. You added in the Pokedex. Like, what were some of the really big add-ons over time that you guys had? And and what what's your favorite like what's your favorite game mode in the game? Ooh, favorite game mode. Let's come back Ooh, favorite game mode. Let's come back to that. I need to think about it. Um, but we we made so many changes. Um, I almost need to like look at the game. It's been [laughter] a long time because the first play fields we're cutting were now like four years ago, maybe even five years ago. But okay, I can think of some big ones. But okay, I can think of some big ones. So, Pokedex, that one was huge. Um, and one of my colleagues who I like discussed our games with at the time was like, you need to put either a Game Boy or a Pokédex in the game. I was like, it's too much work and no one's going to care. Um, but eventually it really felt like it was lacking. Um, so we did have to put it in and I'm glad we did. Um, another one was actually that ramp right next to Gyarados, uh, the Charmander ramp. So, that used to just all be one horseshoe. Uh, but it didn't feel that great to hit. Um, and even when we added it, it felt kind of weird because there's two shots that do the same thing, like they return to the flipper. And I was like, it's going to be so weird if you can hit like this ramp or the right orbit. Both of those lead back to the wire form that returns to your right flipper. I thought it would feel weird. Um, but we we play tested it and it was great. So, that was a huge change because it also made comboing with the upper flippers feel a lot more rewarding. It Yeah, it added a path from like the It Yeah, it added a path from like the upper left flipper to the lower right flipper. I think we kind of lost we got lost in the sauce trying to figure out like what all of the connections were between like, okay, you can go from this flipper to that flipper and like this flipper. And that was like one of the last connections I think that we were missing. Actually, I don't think you can go from Oh, never mind. Yeah, you can do all of them. Um, but that was yeah, one of the biggest changes. I think it was between the the first expo and the second expo. After the first expo, we made a lot of design changes. We didn't have the gym the gym jump into like the back of the playfield. That was another That was a big one, I would say. Yeah. That was a big one, I would say. Yeah. So, the gym shot used to just be um like a horseshoe into a hole behind the center ramp. Um, and it was really loud because it would go like um and it wasn't very satisfying. So, that was big. And one more was the the Pokédex VUK changed many many times. Uh we had a version where it returned on a wire form like it would shoot up out the right side of the playfield and return on wire form to your left flipper. Um oh and then maybe was that just maybe that was the only version. Yeah. And what we what we have now where it vuks over the wire form just like o in the air over the playfield to um the Gyarados lock on the left. That was that's one of my favorite things about the game. Uh it was one of the hardest things to get working. Uh it's it was super inconsistent and we didn't know why. So you just have to play with it forever until it starts working. Um yeah, that was one of my favorite shots. Yeah. Did you think of your favorite Yeah. Did you think of your favorite mode? I still haven't thought of mine. Um I think my favorite mode is the the Um I think my favorite mode is the the psychic mode. What's her name? I don't know. But um Sabrina. um Sabrina. Yeah, maybe Sabrina. So yes, it's one of Yeah, maybe Sabrina. So yes, it's one of the gym leaders. Um the psychic mode and I think I like I think it was kind of my I think I like I think it was kind of my my brainchild. I guess it was [laughter] like how do we use we had these two pose uh to hold the ball by the flippers and I was like trying to think of a good way to use them and something that would like feel like like psychic. So the idea is when you get into an inline um the post will hold the ball and lights will start like cycling between all the shots you can hit. It's like oh what what are you going to have to hit? What are you gonna have to hit? then it'll release and it'll light um the shot that you're supposed to hit and then you have to kind of on the fly shoot the right shot. It kind of feels like psychic but yeah that reminds me actually too like yeah that reminds me actually too like we were talking about design. It might be too late to go back to design but um the reason we have these two posts is another thing we wanted to eliminate was a bunch of scoops and ball holds. So we only have like one real ball hold. Um, they both there's a subway in the gym shot that leads to the Pokedex huck and then you can shoot it straight into the Pokedex. There's also the Gyarados lock on the left, but that's really more of a multiball lock and it's not something you can intentionally hit. So, that's why we wanted those two post because you can then use like other shots to hold the ball to play like shows to start modes. And the other one is um pop bumpers. Uh most of our all of our games have not had pop. Oh no, League had pop bumpers. But um in going for like a flowheavy game, we weren't sure how to incorporate pop bumpers without just making like a section where the ball goes and like bounces around and you're just waiting. So that was another big design choice because most games have pop bumpers. There's a few that don't like Shadow. Um I mean it's becoming more common, I I mean it's becoming more common, I think, not to have them, right? But yeah, I mean it was a very right? But yeah, I mean it was a very the the whole idea was like a low flow. So that we had to get rid of things that would impede the flow. So like the pop bumpers take up too much space even. So like having more shots is better than pop bumpers for flow. And then yeah, having like scoops and things, things that stop the ball. So I actually forgot we do have a pop I actually forgot we do have a pop bumper, but it's not like a standard bumper, bumper, right? right? Yeah. Yeah. Um but my favorite mode honestly might Um but my favorite mode honestly might be Articuno, one of the legendary birds. It's kind of we played it so much because it used to be linear where you had to do them in order. Uh so now I like kind of skip that one. But I think the code is really nice especially when we added the 2x jackpot for all the all the interloop stuff. Yeah. I mean there's there's a lot to Yeah. I mean there's there's a lot to unpack there from what you guys said. I I love [laughter] No, you know you're good. Like I I think No, you know you're good. Like I I think it was it was great. I think it's that gym shot is super super satisfying. Like you're right that that jump is super fun. Um, I really did enjoy that shot quite a bit. And as you said, there's no pop bumpers on the machine. I was like looking around. I was like, I thought I remembered one, but it was like you don't hit it a lot. It's kind of obscure. And it's it's over by like the right the right lanes. Um, and I think it's it's a good use of it. Like it it kind of I feel like when you put pop bumpers I feel like when you put pop bumpers that low that it usually kicks it to the drain and you're just like super mad. You're like, why did it go down like the right the right drain or the left drain? And it's very it's very [laughter] it it but it didn't feel like it did it it it but it didn't feel like it did it very much. Like I I I wasn't like this is stupid. They need to take this out cuz sometimes you know you encounter a machine where you're like that's a terrible design. Take that out. It's just super obnoxious. I I didn't think that at all. Like I kind of liked it. I thought it was interesting. Um and yeah, I mean I I do think I encountered that psychic mode with Sabrina and and uh Gastly. Is is it Gastly that runs that or is it Drowsy? I don't even remember which Pokemon you guys um I don't know if we have a Pokemon um I don't know if we have a Pokemon linked with it. Um, yeah. I'm not sure. Yeah, it's the purple one. Purple mode. Okay. But yeah, I I liked the game modes Okay. But yeah, I I liked the game modes that I got. I got multiball a couple times. I just I think the flow is like the biggest takeaway from this machine is I was just like, just play it again. Just play it again. Just play it again because it it feels so flowy and natural. It feels like it's, you know, professionally done. And I mean, obviously Luke works at barrels and and you guys know code, you know, engineering. So, like, you got the hardest part down and then brought people in for the other stuff. So, um, after Expo this year and the feedback that you guys got, what are your plans for iterations in the future for potentially bringing it next year? Yeah. So, that is a tricky one because Yeah. So, that is a tricky one because if we were to make a new version of this, it would be a huge overhaul. Um, anytime you get really far in a machine, having to start over or do a new play field is an incredible amount of work. So, we're kind of just not sure if we want to take that on because it's it's mostly it's finished. It's good. Um, but we every time you build a machine to you learn stuff. So, your next one's always going to be better. So, we just have to decide, is it worth doing another one or should we just take on an entirely new project? Because we've already started um like another game. It's on our YouTube channel, which was going to be Dune, but then Barrel's barrels released Dune. So, I think we're scrapping that theme. But it's in the cards. It's in the cards. Another big problem, you lost the uh file, right? We had a Solid Works file. I was kind of I mean, when I started, I I was kind of I mean, when I started, I was very new to Solid Works. So, I I think I was building it in like one uh one object file instead of like an assembly. And so, which is very dangerous. But anyway, the file got corrupted. So, there's just no more Pokemon like 3D model anymore, which is very tough. I still have things like the playfield like I can I can pull the play field on its own and like a lot of the parts on its own. Um but I think a lot of it got lost. Yeah. Yeah. And Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think the mind And Yeah. Yeah, I mean I think the mind it's hard because like Owen's saying is the mindset very much for this one this playfield was like when we get this play field in like it will be done like be able to call it good and we can like move on to more games and that kind of and but now like the playfield is chipping and there's kind of learning things that you know oh if we just do this then we can actually be done but yeah that'll probably happen forever yeah that'll probably happen forever though. Yeah. Yeah. And mostly what we would change Yeah. And mostly what we would change are quality of life things like the the lock kick out is pretty inconsistent. So we would rework that. Um we're talking about the VUK, right? The Pokédex VUK also has issues. Um so figuring out a way to make that work both for like the shot that kicks out across the ramp and just kicking out of the wire for um and art. I think uh we haven't really um and art. I think uh we haven't really discussed this with Chris, but we want him to do a play field if we do this again. Um, yeah, Chris did the just the cabinet and yeah, Chris did the just the cabinet and I just I did the we just didn't have any other way to do it at the time. So, it other way to do it at the time. So, it would be nice to get someone because the way Chris did the cabin just looks really good. So, I think it would be like a full full package if we could get on the playfield also. Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you guys Yeah. I mean, it sounds like you guys are making a new game. I mean, like with all the stuff that you'd have to do to to make another version of this, like you're basically starting over almost like you you have obviously you have like the blueprint, right? And everything's there, figured out, but um you'd have so much to work on to do um you'd have so much to work on to do this. It almost makes sense to just make a new game because this one is it's very solid. You know, you could always revisit it in a couple years if you decide you want to, but but making a new game is like it's that thrill of chasing a new project. And and that's that's the big thing is you've worked on it for so long. It's really good. people enjoy it, but you have so many more ideas, so why not work into those other ideas? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. That's that's pretty much all I had That's that's pretty much all I had about about the Pokemon Pinball, I guess. Just homebrew in general. Like, if someone was interested because I feel like the space is growing like crazy. The first time I ever saw homebrew was like 2017 in in Milwaukee at MGC and I think there were two or three pins there. Ed was there. I had no idea. Didn't meet Ed, played his game, but that was the first home bride I ever played was Ghost in the Shell. So kind of give advice to people that want to get into this space. How do they get connected? Who would they talk to? And and what pitfalls would you avoid in the beginning? Obviously, if like they're starting from nothing, they don't know code. They don't know cabinet design, anything like that. Yeah. So, anyone getting into homebrew Yeah. So, anyone getting into homebrew probably has already found Ernie's name. Uh so that's Trident Pinball. He's got a Discord. He sells like playfield kits. Um I do think it makes it a lot more approachable. Uh, I think Ernie and and and us started building at around the same time. So, we actually didn't use his kits, but I could see it just like consolidating everything you're going to need and at least getting flipping. Um, because once you start flipping, then you feel like motivate motivated to keep going. Otherwise, you have to find like a million parts or and like make a huge investment and be like, are we going to need to buy more? [snorts] Like, so that's a big one. He also is great. so that's a big one. He also is great. He in his discord, he helps people like who buy his kit, he'll help them get their game flipping. So, you know, um putting where where all the switches need to go, like setting up your MPF files so that you can connect it to your game and then actually get started. So, Ernie's a big resource. Yeah. And like the forums, I mean, Yeah. And like the forums, I mean, there's a big community now. So, like Yeah. I mean, for where your pitfall is, you know, someone else has that strength. So, people like are really working together now in Discord. Um yeah, Ernie obviously will in that kit will give you like a big jump start. I think it's hard because there's a lot of conflicting advice I think on getting started on hunger nowadays. Um for for you know for some people it's just like get a piece of plywood and start drilling holes and get flipping. Um for others it's like you know develop your your story and you know the story that you want to tell before you even think about building a game. I think our nowadays we've sort of went we now use like virtual pinball because we we spend like way too much money on like all of those plywood uh playfield cuts for Pokemon. We probably have like at least 20 that we cut um just like a ton of work ton of time and VPX kind of takes out a bunch of those playfield cuts and a bunch of that time and you can mess around um without like you know losing too much time. So VPX is a good help especially because it's free. It's free right? You don't need to buy anything to get into BPX and then you can kind of make a game that you want. Like, do I want to try to make this in real life? Yeah. And I I think one other major Yeah. And I I think one other major pitfall that we still kind of run into is you can kind of build a Whitewood without too many tools, but what you need to take it to the final step of building like a production machine with like inserts and art and clear coat. It's almost like a huge second wall that you have to get over and it's expensive. So like your first investment just to build the whitewood is already huge, but then if you actually want to finish the project, you almost need to make like a second pretty substantial um investment as well. Yeah, I mean that's that's good advice. Yeah, I mean that's that's good advice. I think Ed and Kyle said the same thing about Ernie like going to going to him and I mean he does like the um he does the whole playfield the white woods and everything so that you kind of have like your lower geometry figured out and everything's ready for you. So that's that's a great great spot to start and I mean I really appreciate you guys coming on talking about Pokemon giving us kind of the rundown of how everything worked. Um just to wrap everything up, shout out your social medias. Where can people follow along and and where can they track the next game? Yeah, so I think we only have YouTube. Yeah, so I think we only have YouTube. That's our only social media. We have a Facebook account, but we don't really use it. Um, so yeah, it's pinsanity pins from YouTube. Yeah. And yeah, we'll be well, we haven't And yeah, we'll be well, we haven't decided if we'll be at Texas or not, but yeah, Texas and Chicago. We will likely have games there. Yeah. Yeah. Awesome. Well, I'm going to throw that Awesome. Well, I'm going to throw that link down in the description. I'm trying to make Texas. I have like four conventions in Vegas that weekend that we're like picking which one we're going to. So, might not make it this year, but I'd love to make it next year. I'll be I'll probably be at at Chicago again cuz that was that was a good time. I enjoyed that quite a bit. Um but for anybody still watching, don't Um but for anybody still watching, don't forget to like, share, and subscribe. It helps us a ton. The wave will continue to grow. We can ride it together. If you guys need any ice cold beers, Stern pinballs, indie games, Allen One games, anything like that, go ahead and email me at indie arcadewavegmail.com. And until next time, peace.