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Ep 70: The Return of GOATzilla with Keith Elwin

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 2m·analyzed·Oct 11, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Keith Elwin details Godzilla design philosophy, mechanics, and development process on LoserKid Podcast.

Summary

Keith Elwin discusses the design and development of Stern Pinball's Godzilla machine in an in-depth interview with LoserKid Pinball Podcast hosts. Elwin walks through mechanical innovations including the multi-level building diverter, bridge mechanism, and magna grab magnet system, explains his creative philosophy around state-changing shots and wire forms, and reflects on licensing research, theme interpretation, and design trade-offs between Pro and Premium versions.

Key Claims

  • Stern's Godzilla surpassed Sega's arcade Godzilla sales numbers in three days

    medium confidence · Keith Elwin, discussing sales performance: 'I think we surpassed the Godzilla numbers in three days.'

  • Keith Elwin watched the entire Godzilla Showa film series 4-5 times each during development

    high confidence · Keith Elwin explaining research process: 'I'd say about 50-50. Others were just the straight Japanese version. So, yeah, I watched those a ton... I probably watched each movie probably four or five times.'

  • Godzilla's score was intentionally designed with ramp/mode music rather than orchestral to break from prior two consecutive orchestral games

    high confidence · Keith Elwin on music direction: 'I'd already done two orchestral games in a row. I didn't want to do a third... I just want this to be like you're watching a music video.'

  • Three Godzilla films could not be licensed: Hedorah, Godzilla Raids Again, and Destroy All Monsters, plus Kong films

    high confidence · Keith Elwin on licensing restrictions: 'We couldn't use Hedorah, Godzilla Raids Again, and Destroy All Monsters... those rights don't currently belong to Toho.'

  • Godzilla uses a single UFO bumper in the lower playfield integrated with shot mechanics rather than traditional bumper placement

    high confidence · Keith Elwin explaining bumper design: 'Just to be different. It originally started off as two with no scoop. But there was just so little action that I was like, I need a scoop.'

  • This is the first game Keith Elwin included a scoop, breaking his design preference against them

    high confidence · Keith Elwin: 'This is the first game you've actually put a scoop in... I needed a place to stop the ball so you can select your battles.'

  • Godzilla's multiball is locked to 3 balls maximum at once to avoid player conflict issues like Aerosmith

    high confidence · Keith Elwin on ball lock design: 'I didn't really want that same situation. I want her to be able to lock balls up there, and then player two walks up, he can still get a three-ball multiball.'

Notable Quotes

  • “I knew I wanted to do a game with heavy mechanical elements. I wanted to have a building and a bridge.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~5:00 — Core design intent for Godzilla's signature mechanical features

  • “I just want this to be like you're watching a music video. Guys in rubber suits are fighting. Let's just have some fun with this.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~13:30 — Explains thematic and tonal philosophy departing from orchestral precedent

  • “I've worked with Harrison so many times now that he basically knows what I'm looking for. He's like, oh, hey, I saved us $5 by taking up this mounting point.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~34:00 — Illustrates designer-engineer collaboration and trust in cost optimization

  • “We basically took two hot wires and one of us would shoot the ball and the other one would short the wires together to grab the ball... We didn't cause a fire or anything. So we just kept moving forward on that.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~46:00 — Colorful account of experimental magna grab development methodology

  • “I like bumpers, so I'm not – I don't think I would really consider doing a game without them. But I think that the requirement to have three bumpers with lanes above them – I think people are starting to gravitate away from that.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~40:00 — Reflects on evolving bumper design philosophy in modern pinball

  • “If you have too much certainty, it becomes boring. You need chaos.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~42:00 — Core design philosophy on player experience and mechanical randomness

  • “I think for the longest time, pinball – you know, during the cost cutting era – you shoot a left ramp, it would just hug the left side, return to the left flipper... I look at those ramps now and I was like, wow, those are boring. You know, we can do better than that.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~45:00 — Explains wire form innovation as deliberate return to complexity from cost-cut era

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonJosh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonHarrisonpersonGeorge GomezpersonJody DelviscopersonRaymondperson

Signals

  • ?

    design_innovation: Keith Elwin developed non-magnetic caps for magna grab magnet core to prevent ball sticking while maintaining grab-and-release functionality; solved through material experimentation and testing without heating elements

    high · We tried a few different materials. And then we found this one little cap that goes over it. And it'll grab the ball and it'll release, you know, 100% of the time, right where it should, with no residual magnetism.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin favors state-changing diverters that alter ball paths during game progression; identified as key selling point when pitching designs to management

    high · I love state changing shots. I know George loves it too. So it's always an easy sell when we have to present the game.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin deliberately channels retro wire form complexity from Sega/Data East era rather than cost-cutting flat ramps; uses wire forms to control ball speed and provide aesthetic flow

    high · I when I used to play pinball all the time in the uh the 90s, I think that was Sega and Data East's way... we can do better than that. So that's kind of where I got the inspiration.

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern uses designer recommendations plus management approval to determine which features remain in Pro versions; collaborative process with CAD and cost analysis before cutdowns

    high · When we pitch the game with all the devices, we have to propose what comes out on a pro. And then it's up to management to say, yes or no, this needs to stay.

  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: COVID and supply chain disruptions created unpredictable BOM costs during Godzilla development; budget swung $100-$200 within same project, forcing team to deprioritize cost tracking and focus on fun factor

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.188

0:00
thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast i am josh roop with me my co-captain as always scott larson and scott uh who's who we've talked about this week with our sponsors uh well we're uh we're talking about flipping out pinball and guess what i just received in a box uh last week that i have not been able to unbox i don't know what did you receive that's right. I got my God. No, I know. Okay. I got my Beatles. So I, I, I got my Beatles, uh, gold finally. And, uh, looking forward to bring that down. X-Men left the building. Uh, so I, I sold that and now I have room for Beatles. So I'm excited about that. I contacted Zach and Nicole at flipping out pinball and they were able to hook me up with that. So if you have your pinball desires, go ahead and contact them. They'll be able to find either your pinball machine or your accessories or if you have a used machine you're trying to get a hold of go ahead and get and let them know and they'll see what they can do definitely and if you need a godzilla you mean like the uh the sega godzilla right the one right you need a sega godzilla yeah zach will probably even try to help you out with that but if you want the new stern godzilla give them a call as well and speaking of godzilla who do we have on scott uh we have a legend in his own time this is uh Keith Elwin. So Keith is not only the world's best pinball player, but rapidly becoming the world's most respected pinball designer. And he has sacrificed his Sunday to come and talk with us. How you doing, Keith?
1:36
Good. And also, I think we surpassed the Godzilla numbers in three days. You mean the Sega one? Yeah. Oh, geez. That game was interesting, but not really awesomely fun. So, yeah, it's amazing how short some of the runs were back then. It's like imagine doing a game on the line for three days and then that's your entire run. That's yeah, it must have been pretty depressing. Well, just like we had Joe Cam account on a month or two ago. He's talking about how they had to do back to the future, like six weeks or something like that from start to finish. It was it doesn't show at all.
2:16

  • Keith Elwin originally planned a rubber suit Easter egg of Stern employees fleeing the building but scrapped it due to COVID

    high confidence · Keith Elwin: 'We talked about making our own civilians fleeing scenes of Stern employees running up the building. But since there's COVID, that became impossible to do.'

  • Godzilla wizard modes have not yet been coded but will use all six balls in play

    high confidence · Keith Elwin on future development: 'none of the wizard modes have been written yet. So those will for sure use six balls.'

  • Supply chain and COVID cost volatility made final BOM predictions impossible during Godzilla development

    high confidence · Keith Elwin on costs: 'the cost of everything is just all over the place right now... we can't nail down a number on this. Let's just get what we think, get it to where we think it will be fun.'

    • Danai
    person
    Zach Sharpeperson
    Nicoleperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Godzillagame
    Avengers: Infinity Questgame
    Iron Maidengame
    Jurassic Parkgame
    Beatlesgame
    X-Mengame
    Deadpoolgame
    Learning to The Flip out pinballcompany
    Tohocompany
    LoserKid Pinball Podcastorganization
    Connectedproduct
    Joe Calaroperson
    Aerosmithgame
    Lord of the Ringsgame

    high · we would go from right on budget to $100 over to $50 over to $200 over... we can't nail down a number on this. Let's just get what we think, get it to where we think it will be fun.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Godzilla Showa film series had partial licensing available; Toho rights unavailable for Hedorah, Godzilla Raids Again, Destroy All Monsters, and Kong crossovers

    high · We couldn't use Hedorah, Godzilla Raids Again, and Destroy All Monsters... those rights don't currently belong to Toho... We couldn't use Kong either.

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin intentionally incorporates multiple diverter states and mechanical interaction points; counts 4+ major mechanical elements in Godzilla (building, bridge, magnet, bumper) plus 3 flippers creating complex ball paths

    high · I counted up three major elements of that... You already brought up the building, but you also brought up the bridge, and you also have that mini turntable in the bottom right with Mecha Godzilla.

  • ?

    code_update: Godzilla has unreleased video sequences showing Son of Godzilla being bullied; to be deployed with ball save sequences; wizard modes still in development and will use full six-ball capability

    high · We actually have a whole sequence of videos that play. It hasn't been released yet, but it will be there soon... none of the wizard modes have been written yet. So those will for sure use six balls.

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Keith Elwin believes every game needs at least one difficult shot for excitement; references threading needle shot in Jurassic Park as pinnacle design example

    high · I think every every game needs at least one hard shot. Otherwise, it just kind of feels samey... You don't get excited about hitting the left ramp on Jurassic, but you do get excited if you thread the needle.

  • $

    market_signal: Stern's modern Godzilla exceeded Sega's 1990s arcade Godzilla's total sales volume in three days of availability

    medium · we surpassed the Godzilla numbers in three days. You mean the Sega one? Yeah.

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Keith Elwin credits engineer Harrison Drake with understanding design intent and proactively optimizing costs; long working relationship enables non-verbal coordination on mechanical feasibility

    high · I've worked with Harrison so many times now that he basically knows what I'm looking for. And he just goes ahead and does it.

    • Masterpiece. Yeah. Meanwhile, So I'll just put something completely different now. OK, so now here's so we I have two of your games and I actually have Iron Maiden still pending. So I will eventually have all four of your games.
    2:35
    One kind of tell me about the development of of Godzilla. And also, I kind of want to go through each of your games and say, what are the take home messages you learn from each of them? Because I'm sure there's something it's like building a house. Every time you build it, you're like, you know what, I did it this way, but I think I would have done something differently next time. So let's go through this current game, Godzilla. And what was your thought process when you started designing it? And how did you approach that?
    3:04
    I knew I wanted to do a game with heavy mechanical elements. I wanted to have a building and a bridge. I wasn't exactly sure what they were going to do. So I concepted many different designs of buildings, but none of them were very interesting. And so I actually had this idea of a multi-level diverter that has been kicking around. So I thought, well, maybe I can use, you know, incorporate a building in this. So I sketched something up, handed it to my engineer, Harrison, and he was super excited about it. And kind of did like this foam core mock-up. And then we 3D printed something with these different floors. And we're like, hey, this actually works pretty good.
    4:02
    And – but he was like, I think we can go another story higher and have a ball lock on the roof. And so we tried that. we mic'd that up and it was practically scraping the glass when the balls were in it.
    4:17
    So we made a few tweaks, modifications, because that's a really tall mech. And we figured out exactly where to fit it on the play field so it doesn't hit anything in the bottom of the cabinet or the glass. And the rest is history. as far as the bridge uh early in the process uh development george gave me this godzilla toy kit that had this uh little collapsing bridge on it and i'm like oh this is cool and simple so uh i just kind of designed something based on this little toy that you destroy and i just put it in the game and uh actually it turned out pretty cool because we can animate when you hit it you You can animate it and shake it.
    5:02
    It's actually a pretty little interesting bridge. Okay, so I want to go through more. You have talked with us before about enjoying games, and the things that make them different are diverters, so when you have states of change. So the ball path is not necessarily the same at every portion of the game, and I counted up three major elements of that. You already brought up the building, but you also brought up the bridge and you also have that mini turntable in the bottom right with Meccano Godzilla.
    5:36
    And so you also have three flippers in this game. So how many, how many paths are in this game? I mean, typically with a fan layout, it's like nine, nine paths or something, but I think that you had, you kind of broke the bank on being able to have the ball go different ways.
    5:55
    The magnet actually, actually it's a diverter too it can go straight through or it can divert it to the upper flipper yeah that's I love state changing shots I know George loves it too so it's always an easy sell we have to present the game and what our ideas are for the game whatever mech we have does something like that then the brass is usually pretty sold on them looking at Godzilla, especially Showa era Godzilla, it's hard to find these movies. So do you walk into the billing department with a big old receipt for like a couple hundred bucks finding like the collection of these movies? And then there's like a theater there at Stern and you guys just get the team together and sit down and watch nothing but Godzilla movies with notepads. Like, how does this work when you're doing research for this?
    6:45
    Well, funny story, because Jody, when Jody got the license, he bought the whole box set. and originally I was supposed to do this game before Avengers, and so I sat through, watched all the movies, took some notes, and then I got flip-flop with Avengers,
    7:09
    and then so I worked on Avengers for almost a year, and then, okay, now it's back to Godzilla, and I'd kind of forgotten everything, so I basically had to re-watch the entire series again to try to get a focus on what I was doing.
    7:30
    So, yeah, I probably watched each movie probably four or five times English. Actually, some of them in the box set were done in English. I'd say about 50-50. Others were just the straight Japanese version.
    7:47
    So, yeah, I watched those a ton. and I was like, I don't even remember watching these as a kid, really. I just remember knowing who Godzilla was.
    7:58
    Obviously, I saw a couple when I was a kid, but I haven't watched one in many, many years. And I was like, wow, these are so campy. I totally forgot about that.
    8:07
    So my whole approach to the game was just like, well, I am just going to make something fun. Yes. I was a little worried that the purists would not like the classic rock soundtrack that I wanted to do.
    8:28
    But I'd already done two orchestral games in a row. I didn't want to do a third. And I was like, I just want this to be like you're watching a music video. Guys in rubber suits are fighting. Let's just have some fun with this. It says some rock music and break away from the pure Toho Showa era movies a bit with jazz.
    8:51
    I'm not a huge fan of jazz in pinball, so I made that call early, and I was a little nervous when the game debuted, what people would think about the music, but everyone seems to like it, so I think it was the right call. Yeah, it really turned out well. and uh when you're sitting there watching those movies did you have to make a decision because like you said there's the japanese style and then when they brought them over to america they americanized and did they took like the original godzilla and added characters to flesh out a different storyline that they thought americans would love more in the you know because this movie was from the 50s and so if you look a lot of those movies those godzilla movies have different storylines even though they're the same movie um so did you have to kind of pick and choose or was it just because you're using men fighting in rubber suits it just kind of those storylines didn't really matter at that point exactly we couldn't use any big name actors so that you know anything that was changed or added didn't really affect uh what i was doing or you know basically 90 of the footage is guys in rubber suits fighting uh obviously if you watch the whole series like i did you'll notice that almost 10-15 minutes of each movie is just recycled footage of you know the toy tanks the jets uh i remember saw this egregious error where uh megalon was fighting jets and he was swatting them out of the air but if you look closer you can tell it was gigan's arms that were doing it so it was they just get I shamelessly recycled so much footage that I was just like, oh, this is pretty funny. That is awesome. At any point, did the Stern employees get dressed up in rubber suits and there's an Easter egg in there for you guys fighting in rubber suits? Please tell me yes. No, we talked about making our own civilians fleeing scenes of Stern employees running up the building. But since there's COVID, that became impossible to do. So, yeah, we had to scrap that.
    10:59
    That would have been awesome. I know that you have your little Easter eggs of where you're at in each game, but that would have been priceless. You and Gary Stern running away from Godzilla, you know?
    11:10
    Either that or as Gary as Godzilla. I'd love to see that. That's not me doing that. That's our guy, Danai, our animators. He likes putting goats and me hiding them inside the games.
    11:22
    I do love the soundtrack, though. the game that I'm playing the most right now, it's one of my newer games is Deadpool. And I love the humor and the campiness of that game. And so I love that you brought that type of feeling toward Godzilla and it, it makes it just fun. Like you said, it's, it's not taking itself too seriously because it's kind of hard to take yourself seriously when you're watching 1950s special effects and they are pretty bad.
    11:51
    But yeah, I think you made the right call on the soundtrack. Absolutely. Yeah, it had been so long since I'd seen the movies. I forgot how campy they were because, you know, we've been – what we see in America is totally different. We're seeing these dark, gritty, you know, action movies, whereas these were just like – you know, after the first couple – I thought that the first movie was great. And then after that, you can tell they just slowly started tailoring towards kids. And that's when the campiness kind of went off the charts. So that's – yeah, I was like, all right, yeah, we're just going to – We're just going to have fun with this.
    12:24
    Well, I love that the double kick was the drop kick. The sliding along the tail made it in. That's a classic meme. Love it.
    12:34
    Well, I also love the little kid Godzilla when he's dancing with Daddy Godzilla. I don't even know. Like, I haven't seen the movies all the way. Like, these were on, like, Saturday afternoon. So usually when I was supposed to be turning off the TV and cleaning my room or something like that. that's when I would find these.
    12:53
    So yeah, the son of Godzilla. We actually have a whole sequence of videos that play. It hasn't been released yet, but it will be there soon where every time the ball drains, you get a different video from the sequence where he's getting bullied.
    13:09
    It's just something different to try. He's like, Hey, we got all this footage of Manila that I don't know what to do with. So let's, let's just have a storytelling through ball saves. Nice. Well, and remind me again, you guys did, there's 10 or 13 Showa era films, if I can remember correctly. How many of those, which ones did you leave out? Because it seemed like you had more in there than what you left out.
    13:34
    We couldn't use Hedera, Godzilla Raids Again, and Destroy All Monsters. Gotcha. I guess those rights don't currently belong to Toho, so we couldn't use those. But everything else was fair game.
    13:49
    What about Kong? Godzilla vs. Kong. Oh, yeah. No, Kong. We couldn't use Kong either, but that might be so bad. No lie.
    14:00
    The new one or the old one? Because I watched the new one when I was flying over to Hawaii, and that was – I'm not sure if the ambient kicked in at that point, but that was interesting.
    14:13
    Yeah, I'm not a big fan of the inner earth sun. I, hey, I just thought it was interesting, but I may have had a less critical eye considering I saw it probably at 3 a.m.
    14:28
    It's one of those movies that's better at 3 a.m. It probably is, yeah. You also put, and you put the UFO bumper down at the bottom. So looking at the different design things. So usually the pop bumpers are kind of like time. And they usually don't contribute much to the game as opposed to giving the player a feeling like, oh, I'm actually having more ball time, even though it's just a time waster. Yours is dangerous down below.
    14:56
    What was your thought process on putting a single one down low? Just to be different. It originally started off as two with no scoop. but there was just so little action that I was like I need a scoop, the second pop doesn't really do anything but this bottom pop I love how it interacts with the slingshots there's actually a little shot that when you shoot between the pop and the scoop there's a switch there and what that does it lights saucer attack and so then you actually have to shoot the pop to get the saucer attack award and that eventually leads to a mini wizard mode So i try to incorporate it much into the design as i could um it used on a couple modes you have to shoot it so it's not just there to create chaos you actually need to shoot it sometimes so with the extra time that you had with this game do you feel like it actually played to your advantage to help with godzilla did did you like go back and rehash some stuff because of the Switch schedule with Avengers?
    16:02
    It didn't really create more time other than I knew I was working on it longer. Sometimes we don't know what we're working on until a couple of weeks before our current game goes out. But I knew what I was working on for a few years. So that did help.
    16:21
    Ideas, theme-wise, rule-wise, it helped in that manner. But I didn't actually start physically laying it out, the design until a couple weeks before Avengers was announced, and then design was pretty much done a month after that.
    16:41
    This is the first game you've actually put a scoop in. You've talked about scoops not being a huge fan because it stops the action, but you did put one in on this one, so what's the thought process on that? I needed a place to stop the ball So you can select your battles There's also an element of the game called Godzilla Power Up Which isn't in yet, but it will be Which you need the scoop for It just came down to I need a place that I can guarantee to stop the ball The only other place where the ball stops is on the magnet which isn't guaranteed to stop the ball. So scoop was necessary in this case. And I didn't have room to do like a shot in an up post. So regrettably, I put a scoop in, but I think it's fine. It's far enough out of the way and you're not shooting at it all the time. So I'll break my own rule there.
    17:40
    Always an exception to the rule, but it looks great. I've seen that they've started landing at different locations and people are out playing the pros so far. And I've heard nothing but good reviews. so far. People say it's fun. Do you have to decide what you leave in on a pro versus a premium, or is that more of the higher-ups decide on that? It's generally a combination. When we pitch the game with all the devices, we have to propose what comes out on a pro, and then it's up to management to say, yes or no, this needs to stay. So it's kind of the whole design team plus the stern management that decides that whole process. I mean, if there's something that I really, really want, I can go to bat for it and fight for it. But usually it's just kind of a joint agreement.
    18:33
    And I'm assuming typically that comes down to like you have a set budget. I mean, any game has a build of material and what you can do and what you can't do, depending on how much. now you've been able to creatively I guess utilize a build of material to really feel like the game is super packed what are some things in a game that you're like well that would be expensive or that would be easy to be able to put in because it's cheaper are there things that are you have to really debate on whether or not you put them in because of the cost of the material Yeah, so right now with the – obviously the COVID slash supply line stuff, the cost of everything is just all over the place right now. So, I mean, we would go from right on budget to $100 over to $50 over to $200 over back to – it was just – this whole project was just crazy. And eventually it just got to the point where we can't nail down a number on this. Let's just get what we think, get it to where we think it will be fun, not strip too much out of it, none to pro. The pro is fine.
    19:56
    We kind of have to ignore the numbers and just plow forward. We can't just keep constantly checking and looking. but mostly the i can propose an idea and i can do some napkin drawings and cad drawings but it's usually up to the engineer to actually get anything in budget you know so in this case it's like harrison i want to have this you know this building that diverts all these different places and do this and he's like wow that sounds super expensive i was like okay well let's let's build it and see how much it is and then you'll take a look at it oh you know it's not as bad as i thought and then uh a lot of the cost of these things are just the metal work you know the more bends you have the more that's going to cost so it's basically myself and the engineer working to figure out how you know to do do it as uh cheaply as possible but still maintain what it needs to do and it's just it's just a back and forth of the engineer i've worked with harrison so many times now that he basically knows what I'm looking for, and he just goes ahead and does it. He's like, oh, hey, I saved us $5 by taking up this mounting point. It's like, oh, great. I don't even need to bug him.
    21:16
    Did removing two of the pot bumpers really help too? Because, I mean, that's coils and stuff. They're such a common part that they actually don't save us that much. the price of coils has really shot up. So it definitely helps us there. But for the rest of the assembly, since they're used on every single game, obviously the costs on those are a bit lower, but you know, every, every dollar helps. Yeah. Well, and do you feel like the, the pop bumper itself is kind of becoming not obsolete, but it's like Scott was saying earlier, it's either like in Avengers, it's there for pretty much the hits for Captain America, but it also does create an interesting shot when you shoot through them. You did that also on Jurassic Park because that was like your amber shot for your chaos and whatnot. And on Iron Maiden, you're shooting through pops. But other than that, they don't really seem to interact with the ball except for to slow it down. So do you think we're starting to see a gravitation away from pop bumpers as we start to come up with these designs?
    22:21
    Maybe pop up our nests. Sure. I actually I like pop bumpers so I'm not I don't think I would really consider doing a game without them but I think that the requirement to have three pop bumpers with lanes above them I think people are starting to you know gravitate away from that just because it's you know pretty much every game from the 80s through you know the 2000s it kind of has that same configuration somewhere so it's nice to uh break away from that a little bit i think but i yeah like i said personally i i'm probably always going to want to have at least one one pop bumper i think they create a some chaos that's always invited into a pinball game but because if you have too much certainty it becomes boring you know you get in a stern's indiana jones yeah well here's yeah here's the thing if you have three pop bumpers but only one place for the ball to exit that's not creating chaos it's like you said it's just killing time so yeah you know of all my games that do have multiple pop bumpers i try to have multiple exits out of there um jurassic park was kind of an exception because uh i wanted to use that as a setup shot but i intentionally did not put a spring gate in there uh just to create that random chaos that sometimes it can come flying back through there so you have to be on your toes yeah and it's such a satisfying shot when you get when it's when you're squeezing past with a smart missile and you get in between those that that newton ball and everything and you finally hit that shot just feels so great every time you land it's off yeah that's like one of my favorite shots in pinball actually yeah well it's good because you are threading that needle it's it's like indiana sliding under that uh sliding under the door is coming down and he reaches under and grabs his hat so yeah i've said it before i think every game needs at least one hard shot otherwise it just kind of feels samey yep you don't get excited about hitting the left ramp on jurassic but you do get excited if you thread the needle and hit that that shot oh yeah no on jurassic i still have a hard time hitting the right ramp for some reason. It is a mind block on me. So, uh, okay. So the wire form, I want to talk about your wire forms because you, uh, you are known for having a lot of, uh, creative wire forms and a lot of good use of them. Uh, when you're designing a wire form, I mean, there is an art to it in that it's, you are simultaneously creating movement of the ball, which is fun to but you're also generating the speed of the ball too. Like you want to calculate how much it's coming in. Do you do much thoughts on that, on how much the speed is? For example, on Lord of the Rings, there's the shot that comes down the wavy wire form, which George obviously did to slow down the ball. How much of that goes into your wire forms?
    25:23
    Yeah, for, I mean, Godzilla was 100% to slow the ball down because you can lower the building to the lock position from a ramp shot. And so we had to make sure that the building was all the way down by that time that ball returns to the flipper. So that's why they're kind of dancing around, crossing the play field.
    25:42
    So, yeah, you're 100% correct. And say on Jurassic Park, that left ramp wire form kind of serpentines back to the left flipper. and it's the same thing if you know to give you time to uh kind of breathe and set up your next shot um yeah it's just i when i used to play pinball all the time in the uh the 90s i think that was sega and data east's way to hey instead of some fancy mech on a game we're going to have these really intricate wire forms and so if you play games like uh lethal weapon you know there's nothing on that game but it's got that really cool double helix wire form on it and you're like oh okay this is cool yeah well you know it's good just kind of take a page from that it's fun um i think for the longest time um pinball you know during the cost cutting era you shoot a left ramp it would just hug the hug the left side return to the left uh flipper and same with the right side i look at those ramps now and i was like wow those are boring you know we can do better than that So that's kind of where I got the inspiration to kind of channel back to what was done early in the wireform ramp days. Yeah. Well, and speaking of inspiration, this magna grab is insanely cool. Like watching this on the stream, how did you guys figure out? Because watching it, like it grabs the ball, but then it will actually shift to one side as it's swinging back and forth. So that way it can set up that shot for that upper flipper. who came up with this and and what even what made you even think of it well i came up with it um originally when i was uh started on avengers i was thinking okay i got this thor cap the ball i want to do something cool with it and i experimented with putting a magnet in that but uh it didn't work that great and it kept magnetizing the balls the ball you know two balls will stick together and then that was it you had to pretty much tilt the game to get it off so i kind of shelved that for avengers and then once avengers was out the door and we started uh full steam on godzilla harrison and i uh did some experimenting with some uh you know non-magnetic covers that we can stick on the magnet core to prevent the ball sticking to it. And we tried a few different materials, and then we found this one little cap that goes over it. And it'll grab the ball and it'll release, you know, 100% of the time right where it should with no residual magnetism. And so we, yeah, we just kind of trialed and aered on that thing. And we could bash it. It can fling the ball. It could grab the ball. So after basically – we basically took two hot wires and one of us would shoot the ball and the other one would short the wires together to grab the ball. And we would do that and say, oh, this works great. And we didn't cause a fire or anything. So we just kept moving forward on that and that's what you have.
    28:59
    I love that's the design process. We didn't cause a fire, so it's good. You got Rick Nagel standing in the background with the fire extinguisher with you and Harrison Drake working with the wires, huh?
    29:09
    Well, it was the same thing for the T-Rex in Jurassic Park. We stuck a magnet in his mouth, but there were no drivers to actually drive this magnet. So one of us would shoot it and the other one would arc two wires together. And, oh, it catches. Okay, let go. All right, it catches. Let go. Because we're full driving the magnet, which you never do on the game.
    29:27
    You get initial quick pulse and a quick fire, then you pulse it. so it doesn't melt the coil. So you have to be really careful how long you hold those wires together.
    29:40
    So on the Godzilla multi-ball, you did put the physical ball lock on the top, so you have the three balls coming out. But you have six balls in the game. So you could have put – it's big enough. You could have put, like, Jackie from Aerosmith or the arc on Stern. and you could have put a whole bunch of balls up there. What's the theory behind limiting it to three?
    30:07
    Well, if you know how Aerosmith works, if you have five balls in the toy chest and then you start elevator multi-ball, then it dumps all those balls out in the play field. It didn't really want that same situation. I want her to be able to lock balls up there, and then player two walks up, he can still get a three-ball multi-ball and whatnot. So it just came down to not screwing up everything.
    30:33
    Yeah, so player one locks five balls. Player two, if they start a different multi-ball, guess where those balls are coming from. It can't kick out one or two. It has to kick all of them out. We'd face the same problem. We can't control how many balls it kicks out. It's all or nothing. Yeah.
    30:49
    When do you use – is there like an add-a-ball in Godzilla multi-ball, or do you have other things where you're using all six balls? Do you have six balls in there because of the physical ball lock, but you don't want to screw things up for other players?
    31:03
    So the Godzilla multiball, there is an add-a-ball. You bash the three shield targets the shield opens and then you shoot Mecha for an add You always have an add available if you have the ally Anguirus So anytime you in multi you hit the action button it will add a ball
    31:22
    Right now, yeah, right now, the most you can get is five in play, but none of the wizard modes have been written yet. So those will for sure use six balls.
    31:33
    So my thought, I just thought of this while we've been sitting here, though, last time we had you on, we were talking about Avengers and the trophy system and how that was supposed to be kind of part of the online coming out. And now that we have online as connectivity came out two weeks before Godzilla and whatnot, is that the reason the achievement system was in there? Because you said that Avengers was originally supposed to come out now and Godzilla before. So it was, I guess, it's a chicken and egg situation. Was that connected supposed to come out last year along with Avengers? Or was it always supposed to come out now? and just because Avengers got switched around, that's what happened.
    32:10
    Actually, I wasn't 100% sure, but I wanted to be ready. Actually, I discussed it with Raymond and he was fully on board for these little trophy system thing that we implemented on it. At the time we were doing the rules, we weren't sure if Connected would be around, but we wanted to be ready. And it's like worst case scenario, if it's not, we'll have our own dedicated little trophy section in the game.
    32:35
    Cool. I think Raymond just said he wanted the trophies because he knew he'd be able to get them all.
    32:40
    Yeah. Yeah, he kept changing them and making them harder. Oh, I put in that trophy extra hard mode, and I was like, oh, wow, okay.
    32:48
    So let's talk about the plunge on this game. So this plunge goes across the field, and that has had mixed reviews on previous games. So you're risking plunging into danger by crossing the field on the plunge. So what was the thought process on that one? I don't know, live a little?
    33:10
    We do have a multi-ball ball saver implemented, so you can't plunge an outlane or anything, so it's not as dangerous as it seems.
    33:22
    Ball being out of control, yes, but you're not going to just plunge it one target and drain. It recognizes that and will give it back.
    33:29
    With modern games and software, where it's not really a thing where someone's just going to plunge out late three times and, wow, that was a ripoff and walk away. So I was comfortable doing it.
    33:42
    So I know you love your skill shots, as evident on Jurassic Park and Avengers. How many skill shots do you have here on Godzilla?
    33:54
    As of launch, there are three, and I believe there are three or four more coming. yeah i don't want to spoil it but there are more coming awesome well i love that one that goes behind the flipper that one behind the flipper kind of reminds me of a congo when you shoot into the outlane even though it's not an outlane but still it's kind of a mini outlane up there yeah yeah yeah what what made you decide to go with the the the floating flipper because has this ever been done before where there's not a direct uh lane to a flipper i mean how Was that a lot of trial and error trying to make sure that it came down to the flipper from the upper spot without it hopping and being kind of random? Yeah, that actually probably took me longer than anything else in the game was to angle that ball guide right to that flipper and get it going in that loop.
    34:48
    It did take a lot of trial and error. It wasn't really – originally, my design was to have a shot that shot behind that upper flipper and was grabbed by like a normal magnet, like a normal magnet core.
    35:07
    And we experimented with that a bit. It was – because that ball comes flying through there so quick. It didn't work the way I wanted it to. So I scrapped that idea, but I loved the shot after playing it like that. So I kept that. And then we went back to the drawing board on the magnetic Newton ball, and it was like, oh, this fits perfectly right here. So after we got that working pretty good, and that shot, I had just become in love with that shot of shooting it behind a flipper. and a lot of times you can deflect it off uh off the magnet core and it goes to that right lane uh the mechagodzilla lane on the right and so kind of a full around the world orbit uh and the first time i did that i was like oh yeah i'm so keeping this floating upper flipper because it's just yeah yeah like you said something you don't see uh i don't know if it i don't know if it's a first but it's probably been a very long time if if it's been done ever i'm like the only thing i could really think of would be Monopoly, but that was like that weird spinning flipper, right? I don't know.
    36:17
    I mean, it games like I think Hot Doggin has a flipper built into the sling. I don't think that really is aimed for anything. It's just for something for people to flip.
    36:31
    So yeah, dialing in the lane to the flipper took some time. All right. So how many modes are in this game? I'll say there's seven battles four city modes there's like two or three micro wizard modes two mini wizard modes and another wizard mode so probably 12 to 14 when we're done I'd say okay nice and obviously non-linear you can kind of choose your own adventure and you don't have to hit all of them to get to the end. Is that fair?
    37:14
    Yeah, that's fair. Right now, so we have cities. Upon release, they don't really do much, but the idea of the cities is kind of similar to Jurassic Park paddocks where you have objectives in each city. You want to destroy the power, destroy the bridge, destroy the tanks that are there, and defeat the monster that's raiding. fully implemented yet, but that's pretty much the idea of the cities.
    37:42
    You can get as far as you want in each city and the further you get, the more points you get for the Planet X Wizard mode. Or you can just kind of blow through the cities, just defeat the monster that's there and move on and not worry about knocking out the power or destroying the bridge.
    38:00
    So yeah, there's a whole bunch of stuff missing as it launched. When you play it now, some stuff may not make sense, but it will at the end.
    38:13
    So when you were making these games, was it kind of a combination because you were an operator for so long, you knew what worked and what didn't work in a game? Did you have a book of notes that you write this all down? Is this all just kind of coming to you as you start making these games?
    38:28
    I mean, the operator in me is more like, what annoys me about, you know, being an operator. And a lot of that was, Oh, Hey, this rubber broke. And it's under six different ramps have fun. Uh, so I tried not to, uh, I tried not to have, you know, rubbers in, in, inexplicably hard to get places. Um,
    38:53
    so to combat that I'll do like, instead of two posts with a big rubber between them, I'll just do multiple posts with a single rubber, which greatly reduces the chance of that rubber breaking.
    39:06
    You know, stuff like that. It's basic gameplay. My operator days don't really affect that at all. But it's mostly just like, hey, I can't get to this screw to take this mech off. This is bad. So, you know, Harris-Sommer put a hole in the plastic or something so you can get a screwdriver in there. It's more stuff like that. stuff that 99.9% of the people will never notice. Gotcha. Except for the people that operate and appreciate it.
    39:34
    Yes. Well, okay. Here's a good example. I saw stuff online where it's, oh, this reminds me of the Doctor Who play field. That thing was a nightmare. It's like, yeah, you know why that was a nightmare? Because it had bundles of wires inside of it. This building, all the wires are on the outside of the frames. So the wires aren't being stretched or moved. It's going to be fine. Yeah. Okay, so this is your fourth game in.
    40:01
    So what are the take-home messages that you have learned from each of your games? Oof, that's a tough one.
    40:10
    You know, I haven't really thought about it. I know after Jurassic Park, I'm trying to, you know, I don't want to make the same game over and over again. So Jurassic Park, a lot of people said, wow, this thing is hard to shoot. So I was like, oh, okay. So I made Avengers easier to shoot.
    40:28
    And then for this game, I knew I wanted to have a bunch of mechanical devices. So I knew I'd be giving up flow in order to do that. So I kind of tried to design these shots where they'll interact with a mechanical device yet still maintain some flow, which is actually a lot harder than it sounds. but um so it's kind of an experiment by me hey can i have these four mechanical devices in a game and still have a bunch of shot flow going on so uh i think it came out well uh i don't have any complaints about how it shoots and how it interacts with the devices so that was like really the challenge for me on this project uh iron maiden wow you go because i i worked on that archer design for so long that uh george is like yeah okay let's do this layout when you got when i got hired i was like oh great i'm so sick of this layout um but uh yeah we made some geometry changes on it which actually really helped it um and if anyone played avenge i mean archer when it was at uh expo but yeah you can tell you can totally tell the difference that geometry changes made where Archer is a bit slower and a couple of, add a couple of harder shots. And I think, I think Maiden just came out perfect with the shot flow and the range of, you know, easy, medium and hard shots to make in that game. So like I said, if I try to take anything, I'll look at my previous games and it's like, okay, what are these all have in common? Okay, well for my next game, I'm not going to do that. And you guys brought up the point. all my games have a shot through the pops and none of my games have scoops. So I was actually fine for this game having one pop and a scoop, no shot through the pops.
    42:20
    So I knew I'd throw you guys all off with that one. And I can't wait to play this game because I think it'll be not a welcome change because all your games are a welcome change. I feel like you've revamped the game from what it was even just a couple years ago. So it's definitely shaken things up.
    42:41
    Thanks. Yeah. So Expo is coming up. So are you going to be doing a presentation on this at Expo? And what are your plans during Expo? Are you playing in the tournament? I am not. My brother's in town, so I'm going to be playing host. I have a – I'm doing a Making of Godzilla seminar on Saturday, so I think that's going to be the only day I go there.
    43:03
    But it should be fun. And since we completely did not do one on Avengers, there would actually be some stuff to talk about, which is a lot more fun than when I was doing the making of Iron Maiden. It was my only game. So when we were done talking about Iron Maiden, I had to fill the air for another 20 minutes with pinball playing tips or whatnot because I only had one game to talk about. So this should be a lot more fun.
    43:28
    People can ask whatever from whatever game I've done. And so I no longer have to fill dead air with tournament questions. So we had someone submit a question.
    43:40
    This is Josh S. from Chicago, Illinois. I don't know if you know him, but he wants to know, how do you feel to have only finished second place in majors three times while Josh Sharp has done it four times? And does it eat at you?
    43:54
    Yeah, well, you know, we put a little tribute in all my games now. this Josh Eskai gets the default second place score.
    44:03
    It's just an ode to him, the master. Yeah, and Greg Wachbarelli asked, how does it feel to be goatee?
    44:11
    Oh, hi, Greg. Sure. So we're going to play segments still for a second. If you were on a boat with all four of your games, you could only save one. which one would you save?
    44:30
    Oh, man. Or I guess the first one to go over. That's what I want to know. They're all my children. Trust me, I can throw one of my kids over sometimes. I think Godzilla has surpassed Jurassic Park to me as my personal favorite.
    44:50
    Wow. Wow, all right. It's just campy, old-fashioned fun. and that's all you can ask for as a game designer is just to have creative freedom he's like hey I want to do this and the licensors are like cool go nuts it's just the greatest feeling in the world and I think it benefits both the licensor and the game maker and the game designer let me do my thing and this will be an amazing project and I think it shows in this game I think it's just super fun I play it every day and even though the rules are maybe half, a little more than half done, I still have a blast playing it.
    45:34
    Well, and I love the campy too because it's like a throwback to the 90s. You know, this is what we, a lot of people love the 90s games because like Monster Bash was just campy fun. Same with, you know, Elvira's Scared Stiff. And Stern really hasn't been doing that lately, but with Elvira's House of Horrors, that seems like it went that away. But this just feels like it hits on those 90 notes as well. And a lot of those AD games, we grew up with those as well, and they had the campy vibes. And I really like that Godzilla is kind of a throwback to that as well. Yeah, like I said, after watching the movies for the first time in decades, I was like, oh, I forgot how campy these were. So you said the new Godzilla, which is dark.
    46:17
    Action, action, action. These things are masterpieces in their own right. This whole movie on anti-bullying, All Monsters Attack, it's just hilarious to watch now.
    46:32
    I was like, what am I going to do with these clips? And that's when I came up with the whole ball save thing where Manila's getting bullied.
    46:39
    So we basically copied the subtitles as ball save notes instead of ball save or return to battle. we just copied whatever that section of the movie had to hang in there You can do it Focus All these different ball save clips So yeah it was, I think we all had a fun time on this one.
    47:03
    You also have the ability to play in Japanese mode or in English mode. So whose idea was that? It was actually the licensor. They're like, Oh, Hey, cool. Really cool. Because they're going to have it in Japan. Yeah. So yeah, they were like, Hey, really be cool. If you guys can do this. And we're like, oh, yeah, I think we can. So Rick saw that and he's like, great, more work to do. And then it turned out to be it really wasn't that bad. You know, we just put a flag in there for which speech is in there. Obviously, when you get a bunch of Japanese voice work and you had no idea what that call out is. So, you know, we had to do a lot of – Jerry Thompson had to do a lot of work to set all this up to verify that this is the quote for, you know, for what's written on the line because we had no way to verify it. And those guys did a great job. Just all the legwork necessary to make that happen.
    48:02
    So did you have to have like a translator there to help or how did that work? so we sent English script to our VO guy and he sent it back with and he you know he made the corrections hey you know this doesn't translate well so I did the best I could and you know some of it was you know slightly different so we had to figure out okay this must be for this call out this must be for this call out so like I said it was a lot of work Jerry Thompson Rick Nagle to figure all that out and get everything in the right place and hopefully it is like I said we may have some totally wrong callouts in there and not know it. So hopefully someone will let us know if that's true. Well, I'm sure it'd be hilarious, though. Like, have you ever gone to, like, when I travel and I go and I, obviously I don't speak the native language I'm going to, but it is interesting when I see when they try to translate to English. But I'm sure it would probably give the Japanese people a chuckle when it looks like what Americans are trying to translate into Japanese. Yeah, it's our version of bad dubs back at them.
    49:07
    Yeah, exactly. Okay, so what time is your seminar on Saturday? I think it's after dinner. I'm not sure. Okay. All right. Yeah, I've been so busy. We'll get a crowd for you there. I've been so busy on the line.
    49:26
    These past two days, I'm in my first two days off in a month, so it just feels great. I'm just going to shut my brain off and not think about that stuff. But I believe we are the last talk Saturday night after dinner. Oh, you're the keynote talk. I think so, yeah.
    49:42
    It's probably like the month up to a release and a month after a release is probably the busiest time you have in the whole development cycle, right?
    49:50
    Yeah. For me, I mean, my poor programmer, Rick, I don't think he's taken a vacation in years. So I think I have no right to complain because he's the one under the gun to, hey, this has to show while on the stream. Hey, this has to have no bugs when we release. Hey, this, you know, I can't imagine the stress he's under in sleepless nights. So for me waking up early and going to the factory, I can't complain because I know that's nothing compared to what he's going through.
    50:21
    Well, and honestly, his work is amazing. Like I said, I've played plenty of Stern games. they're all fantastic but i feel like rick does a good job too you don't find like a consistent bug um there's some games like i own turtles and i love turtles but it always seems like uh there might be a bug or something after the update like the current one right now is final battle for some other reason the audio is not there when you get there but like i haven't found that with um any of the rick ankle games he's done for you and so i mean next time you see him tell him great job I know you probably tell him enough as is, but it's definitely showing in the work that he does too.
    51:00
    Oh, yeah. As far as programming goes, he's very competent. I can, hey, I want this to do that and this, and then he'll like, okay, no problem. And then it will eventually get implemented, and he'll like, yeah, that was really hard to do, but it's working the way you want it to. And I was like, oh, you should have said something. I could have done it differently. but uh yeah no he's he's very good at figuring out what i want how i want it done and making it happen it's the same with harrison too i know the game designer gets all the credit but uh it's a team effort for sure um you know jerry got all this all the great original music in there harrison got those necks working perfectly rick's code obviously speaks for itself so um it's a whole team effort and i zombie eddie always knocks it out of the park i know we love that saying but his artwork it astounds me i know i know this i don't know why but some people complain of colors and yada yada yada it's like i think it looks fantastic so i don't think what people keep in mind is um the licensor wanted you know what the licensor wants the licensor gets it's you know we're not going to tell them what to do so that's the direction they wanted for this and And that's how it goes.
    52:13
    It's funny to hear that. Oh, this isn't accurate. And I was like, well, it's what they wanted. Well, it certainly catches your eye when you see it. And that's certainly what you want, especially in pinball, where it's fighting for floor space from the raw thrills games that look like a Skittles explosion. Like I said, this whole thing from the beginning, you know, Toho's like, yeah, you know, let's make this great campy game. And it's like, you know, you don't have campy games with dark, gritty artwork. It doesn't make sense. So this is the direction we went. This is the direction they wanted us to go. And I would not change a thing.
    52:49
    Well, and I think oftentimes people forget, too, because I don't want to say I criticize, but I brought up the point on the last episode. Like when you guys did the reveal trailers, typically you do like a reveal trailer and then you do like a pro premium features and stuff like that. I was like, where the hell was that? And someone had reached out and said, Josh, you realize like sometimes our hands are tied and we have to wait. And I think we forget that being on the outside is as as he put to me is sometime, you know, you guys need the licensor. And you never want to get that message saying like, like, you didn't do what we asked you to. We don't want to deal with you guys again. And so it's a fine balance of what to do as well. Yeah, yeah.
    53:31
    Toho has been great to work with, but there's more than one entity making up Toho. So you just don't sign off with one person. You sign off with multiple people. So obviously that creates delays, and that was what happened in this case. So that's all that was.
    53:52
    I think it's good to wait until you get everything right, though, because it's clumsy when it seems like you announce something and then you have to walk it back. And we've seen other games that have announced too soon and then had to walk things back, and it didn't – it became awkward for them. And I like that you guys wait until it's dialed in before it's all set out. I mean, for up to me, we would just blindly show the stream when it was ready to stream, and then we'd release all the promotional stuff. That's up to me. Obviously it's not. But it would just be fun. organically discover this game because that's how we used to do it you know 80s and 90s we'd walk into an arcade oh look a whole a new game there's no internet so you didn't know this game was coming you just discovered organically you start pumping your money in it and it's like yeah i think that's that's kind of lost today in the the internet age where you just you know what's coming you've seen pictures you've seen gameplay before you even play your mind's probably already made up so uh you know kind of miss those days but i know they're never coming back well that's why you i assume that's why you kind of keep some mystery too as well when you're streaming and stuff like that i know that other developers and and whatnot might actually go through the whole code set but it's kind of like explore with us we're not going to tell you everything because we want you to explore it for yourself yeah yeah i think for uh for iron maiden i think i took the glass off and uh you know started shooting shots and make making all the modes i remember i went back and re-watched that and i was like this is boring i'd rather just play it you know yeah um so that's how i've approached my streams ever since and uh i honestly haven't heard any complaints so i'll probably continue to do that yeah zach told us that after the stream the orders went up which he said is a little unusual and so um i re-watched the stream today and yes it it seemed like you guys were having fun and my daughter walked up and she looked at the game and she's six and she said that game looks fun so i well i'm just saying that's a good thing right you don't want someone looking like i don't understand what's going on she just said that looks fun so i i jack was jack approached me and he's like oh what do you want to do for the stream i was like i want the music loud we're not going to talk just put the music on loud so we can get some energy in the room because sometimes you know during the streams we have the volume turned either all the way down or it's direct audio where the people in the room can't hear it at all i was like i don't want that uh i don't want to look bored let's get some energy in the room um just don't capture the audio directly. Just put a microphone by us. It'll pick up what it picks up. I think it works fine. Are you tired of hearing Blue Oyster Coats Godzilla now, though?
    56:26
    No, but I think the line workers are because they have to test the speakers. In order to do that, they turn the volume all the way up. Of course, that's the default volume change song. They're probably pretty sick of it. I'm not there yet.
    56:40
    Ask me again in three months. so i i did look at the schedule and uh on the schedule you are set at seven o'clock and followed by dwight with family feud so you are definitely in the evening on uh saturday like i said better eat first well it's always a party with dwight right so it'll be interesting to do family what's it called feud without the family right feud without the family which i don't even know if that's a feud i mean you got any recommendation so this is my first time to expo keith you got any recommendations for anyone that's going for their first time to expo well you know not really because it's in a whole new venue this year i don't even know where it's at so uh before i could say oh yeah you know there's these places to eat these places to avoid but i haven't even looked to see where this new venue's at so uh i think it's actually down by stern's headquarters if i'm correct it's only a couple i want to say maybe five, ten blocks away. I think it's in Schaumburg, which is actually a pretty populated suburb. So it's definitely the mall.
    57:47
    We've got a pretty big mall out there with Arcade and Tarium Arcade, which has a lot of new games. So it's definitely worth checking out if you're in the area.
    57:57
    Yeah, I'm flying in Wednesday night, so I'm looking to do something on Wednesday night. Yeah, I don't spend a lot of time in Schaumburg, so I have no recommendations, but it's definitely much more convenient than the old location, that's for sure.
    58:13
    I got to know, though, I don't think you talked about this on Final Round. If you did have to choose between Keolis and Martin, who would you be throwing over the boat?
    58:24
    I kind of like Marty for his Kandor. He was just like, I'm not impressed with any of these mechs. I was like, okay, yeah, that's another industry guy talking. So I got to keep him. He's honest with me. I would toss Teolos over. All right. I'm just wondering, does it change with the level of gin that's going through Martin's veins?
    58:46
    Because I think the filter goes as the gin goes up. Yeah, yeah. Teolos is Teolos no matter what. But yeah, Marty's the wild card.
    58:55
    Yeah. Well, cool. I don't have any other questions. Do you have any more questions, Scott? No, I think that's good. that's uh we we have taken a an hour of keith's time and we appreciate him coming on we do appreciate it the bears are winning so it's uh it's a win-win well maybe chuckle is uh we you know how many emails and messages we've received in the last month of when's when's keith that one coming on why haven't we heard a keith that one interview yet like guys we don't we don't usually have him on directly you know as soon as possible but uh it just made me chuckle he's busy before and after. Yes, you've got to catch them at the right time. But even Raymond Davidson's like, where's Keith at? I'm surprised he's not on the show yet.
    59:37
    Well, Keith is finally starting to get some days off again, and he can do these shows again. You've definitely deserved some days off. You've earned them.
    59:45
    Wow, thank you. All right, Josh, you want to send us out? Yeah, I'll definitely do the send-off. If you want to get a hold of us, we are LoserKidPinballPodcast at gmail.com. If you're looking for us on the socials, we are at LoserKidPinball on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. We do have Twitch going on as well whenever I feel like it. So I record like three times in a week and then nothing for a month. So whatever works. If you do want to get a hold of us, we do have some hats. We have a couple different, not designs, but different colors we're going to be bringing to Expo, but not a ton. So if you want a guaranteed hat or a shirt or a beanie, anything of that nature, you need to get the order in like today. And so if he wants or bring it to Expo. If not, we can ship it to you later. So other than that, what do you got for me, Scott?
    60:32
    Josh, what's your insider profile? Oh, it's just Loser Kid. I stole it. Someone's like, that's not very nice. Did you guys arm wrestle for it? Yeah, I know. He just grabbed on it. So I keep trying to sign up, but I forgot my login for Stern. So I've been trying to reset my password for three days. So I will be Loser Kid 2, the number two. and Keith if people want to follow you what is your KME Stern I think wow I don't remember I don't think your profile is public because I found out that if you just typed in Stern and you looked under connections it seemed like everyone at Stern was Stern- you know Ray Day or Stern- you know Rick and so the Stern employees had the designation of Stern and there's yeah I think it's just stern-kme71, something like that. All right, well, check it out and let us know if you can find Keith.
    61:31
    We can make it a whole challenge, find Keith. There you go. Exactly. Where's Keith? You can even unlock the achievement once you've found Keith. Where in the world is Keith?
    61:42
    Cool, Keith, we really appreciate having you on. It's always fun having you on. And we wish you well. Hopefully, we'll see you here in a couple weeks at Expo. Yeah, thanks, Keith. All right, good to talk to you.
    61:53
    Shut up and sit down. Bye.