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episode 40. fall in flip out

The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 55m·analyzed·Aug 29, 2021
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Deep Root Pinball implodes amid fraud charges; Stern raises prices and adds connectivity features.

Summary

The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcast (Episode 40) features hosts Spencer, Dan, Brian, and guest Jeff Claiborne discussing major pinball industry news: Deep Root Pinball's collapse due to founder Robert Dave Mueller's SEC fraud charges involving $58 million in stolen retirement funds, Stern's new connectivity features via QR codes and online leaderboards, and industry-wide price increases ($500 for Pro models, $1,000 for Premium) driven by supply constraints and demand. The hosts analyze how these events impact the broader ecosystem, manufacturer trust, and market dynamics.

Key Claims

  • Robert Dave Mueller is under SEC investigation and being sued for allegedly funneling ~$58 million in stolen retirement investments into Deep Root Pinball over five years with minimal game production.

    high confidence · Spencer explaining the SEC case against Robert Dave Mueller

  • Deep Root Pinball created multiple LLCs (approximately 8-9 companies) to funnel and obscure money from Mueller's insurance/investment fraud scheme.

    high confidence · Host describing SEC filing details about Deep Root corporate structure

  • Stern is implementing QR code connectivity on newer machines (starting with at least Godzilla or later) to enable online leaderboards and remote tournament play.

    medium confidence · Jeff Claiborne and hosts discussing Stern Insider podcast announcement and Transformers QR code precedent

  • Stern raised prices by $500 for Pro models and $1,000 for Premium models due to supply constraints and high demand.

    high confidence · Host stating pricing increases confirmed 'a little earlier'

  • JJP (Jersey Jack Pinball) currently has near-complete sellout across models with 6-month to 1-year backlog; Mandalorian sold out for approximately one month.

    high confidence · Hosts discussing vendor inventory status and backlog timelines

  • Chicago Gaming's classic remakes (Attack from Mars, Monster Bash) were originally priced at $6,000 but distributors are now charging $8,000-$9,000; Chicago Gaming maintained original pricing.

    high confidence · Hosts comparing distributor markup versus manufacturer pricing

  • Pre-order money for Deep Root games may be recoverable if held in escrow accounts, though outcome depends on legal proceedings.

    medium confidence · Host speculation about pre-order account status without legal expertise

  • Papa Duke (John Papaduke) has not successfully produced a real pinball game in approximately 23 years.

    medium confidence · Spencer's statement about Papa Duke's track record

Notable Quotes

  • “They never built. Again they never did anything they took a bunch of people. They stole and swindled a bunch of people.”

    Spencer @ ~3:30 — Direct statement characterizing Deep Root Pinball's failure as intentional fraud rather than business failure

  • “I can guarantee you, okay, to any new aspiring pinball companies, I can guarantee your success if you just do this one thing, this one little thing. Stay the fuck away from Papa Duke. He's poison. He's a cancer. He's a fucking turd in the punch bowl.”

    Spencer @ ~28:00 — Host making strong public statement against Papa Duke involvement in future ventures, citing track record

  • “What was the company he did before Zizzle? Papadook. With the little pinballs.”

    Host (unnamed) @ ~32:00 — Reference to Papa Duke's pre-Zizzle company involvement in toy pinball machines

  • “They probably need to come up with some sort of way to make sure that the pins have a similar setup and the glasses on them, I think that that's going to be the epic win of the whole connected story.”

    Host (Brian) @ ~21:00 — Identifies standardization/calibration as critical for Stern's online competitive connectivity to work

  • “You know, if somebody really wants it, they're going to pay and you're going to get more money. Worst case scenario, it's going to give you a chance to catch up with your orders while at the same time making more money.”

    Host @ ~51:00 — Rationalizes Stern's pricing strategy as managing demand while supply-constrained

  • “Six months down the road, 12 months down the road, whatever it is when they catch up, hey, man, this is reality. Stuff doesn't usually go back down in price.”

    Host @ ~52:00 — Suggests price increases are likely permanent even after supply/demand equilibrium

  • “Try getting a new in-box game, man. You know, you're down to, like, maybe a Hot Wheels. Maybe. Everybody else has sold out of everything.”

    Host @ ~60:00 — Characterizes current market scarcity across major manufacturers

Entities

Robert Dave MuellerpersonDeep Root PinballcompanyJohn Papaduke (Papa Duke)personSpencerpersonJeff ClaibornepersonDanpersonBrianpersonStern Pinball Inc.

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root Pinball effectively defunct due to founder Robert Dave Mueller's SEC prosecution for $58 million investment fraud involving retirement fund misappropriation funneled through company and ~9 related LLCs

    high · SEC lawsuit filed; Mueller under criminal and civil prosecution; company never shipped significant product in 5-year history

  • ?

    regulatory_signal: SEC enforcement action against Robert Dave Mueller for securities fraud; hosts note SEC doesn't 'go off half-cocked' and had been investigating for months before filing

    high · Spencer citing SEC lawsuit and comparing rigor to Bernie Madoff case prosecution

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts express concern that Deep Root scandal will make community reluctant to fund new pinball startups; noted as third or fourth time some investors have been burned

    high · Spencer: 'people can only get pushed so far' and 'harder for the next little company with a big idea to get in the game'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Stern implementing QR code connectivity on newer machines (confirmed at least from Godzilla onward) enabling online leaderboards, remote tournament play, and score syncing via Stern Insider app

    medium · Jeff Claiborne referencing Stern Insider podcast announcement; Transformers precedent with QR code linking; hosts discussing online tournament capabilities

  • $

    market_signal: Stern Pinball Inc. raised baseline pricing: $500 increase for Pro models, $1,000 increase for Premium models; effective immediately on new orders

    high · Host confirmation of figures 'just told a little earlier'; affects games like Deadpool and future Stern releases

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.346

0:00
Welcome to the Spinner's Lift Pinball Podcast, Episode 40, what's the episode called? Oh yeah, Episode 40, Fall In, Flip Out. We'll be here in our intro music, as it actually shows up tonight. Hey everybody, welcome to the show, Episode 40, the Spinner's Lift. I'm your host Spencer, and with us tonight, via the wonderful magic of the interwebs, is... Technology! Technology, that's right. It's the Roundtable crew and we've got a member that hasn't been on the show before So we've got Dan and Brian And then we also want to welcome Jeff Claiborne to the show Welcome Jeff Hey, thanks for having me Man, glad we finally got you on the show So there's a lot to talk about And it's really funny, I'll start it up first with Like we did the last episode that was just me and Dan And then like on a Saturday Because we always do this on a Saturday And like the following Monday the news broke about Spooky Pinball and releasing Halloween and simultaneously All-Term Man. And it's so funny because we're always a day late and a dollar short, you know? We always do a show and the following Monday, something really cool gets released. It just gives us time to ruminate on those events and what they really mean. It does. It does. So we're going to jump right into topics in the news and just what's going on in the pinball hobby in the pinball world. I'm going to start off with Deep Root DOA. So I'll kind of get the ball started and you guys can jump in any time. Deep Root Pinball, that's a loose term. If you don't know, if you don't follow Pinside closely or other forms of social media, and then I don't really know why you listen to this podcast. But anyway, their founder, a lawyer by the name of Robert Mueller, is now under investigation and being sued by the Federal Exchange Commission. The SEC, the Securities and Exchange Commission. Securities and Exchange Commission, yeah. People who you do not want to be sued by. Right. That is a bad thing. Yeah, from what I understand, what I've been led to understand is if they file a lawsuit, it's not like they don't go off half-cocked. They've been studying and researching and investigating for months and months and months on end. And if they release something like this into the public, it's because they've got pretty much a solid case kind of a la Bernie Madoff. So basically what this dude was doing was, or was accused of doing, is about $58 million in investments taken from people investing their retirement money into various companies and corporations. And this guy had been funneling this stuff into the pinball company that in five years nearly has not produced a single game. And just It's you know the long and short of it Is it's all a load of BS They never built Again they never did anything they took a bunch of people They stole and Swindled a bunch of people their money Looks like this guy is found guilty which it looks like He's going to go to prison And J-Pop who hasn't Been able to make a real game in like almost 23 Years Still has not made a game So number one And, like, is it surprising anybody that it turns out that he was probably just using DeepRoot to launder illegitimate money? I mean, it all makes sense now if you look at it, right? Like, you know, I got to spend money on something. Let's found a pinball company. Oh, man, hundreds of thousands of dollars are disappearing a month, and we don't do anything with it. Well, what's interesting, too, is the SEC file that showed all the different LLCs that DeepRoot had created. So there was not only the Deep Root Pinball Company, but there was a sports television company, an Ohana Trust, a Deep Root LLC Incorporated group. There was about, I'd say, eight or nine different Deep Root-related companies that all essentially were sent money or used money to help propagate those businesses from his insurance sales, well, the investments of the retirees towards his insurance company, quote-unquote, and investors' company. Yeah, and just literally stole all that, didn't return anything, and ended up, of course, costing a whole bunch of retirees a lot of money. That's rough. That's a terrible thing.

  • Stern previously implemented QR codes on Transformers that linked to promotional content (sternpinball.com/Transformers).

    medium confidence · Host recalling Transformers QR code functionality

  • Deadpool Pro pricing increased from original ~$5,900 to $6,400+ due to Stern's recent price bump, making earlier pre-orders valuable.

    high confidence · Spencer explaining his December pre-order savings versus current pricing

  • “The $6,000 that they were charging for the classics of Attack from Mars and Monster Bash were by far the best deals in pinball, and I really regret not jumping in on those now.”

    Jeff Claiborne @ ~62:00 — Retrospective analysis of Chicago Gaming's original pricing advantage

    • company
    Jersey Jack Pinball (JJP)company
    Chicago Gamingcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Zach Minneyperson
    Heighway Pinballcompany
    Dutch Pinballcompany
    Pinball Brotherscompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Game Exchange (JJ)company
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Scorbitcompany/platform
    SEC (Securities and Exchange Commission)organization
    Steve Bowenperson
    Steve Ritchieperson
    Deadpool (Stern)game
    Escaleragame
    Mandalorian (JJP)game
  • ?

    supply_chain_signal: Industry-wide severe supply constraints; Stern and JJP backlogs 6-12 months; inventory across manufacturers nearly exhausted; distributors report limited new stock for foreseeable future

    high · Hosts noting JJP Mandalorian sold out ~1 month; mostly only Hot Wheels available; 6-month to 1-year backlog quoted; Chicago Gaming remakes subject to distributor markup due to scarcity

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern and other manufacturers using price increases strategically to manage excess demand while supply-constrained, with expectation prices will not decrease even after supply equilibrium reached

    high · Host analysis: 'why not bump up the price?' when can't meet demand; prediction prices won't return to previous levels

  • $

    market_signal: Secondary market distributors charging significant markups on scarce inventory; Chicago Gaming Attack from Mars/Monster Bash escalated from $6,000 (MSRP) to $8,000-$9,000 at some vendors

    high · Hosts comparing MSRP to distributor pricing; Spencer noting Deadpool distributor wanted wire transfer + inflated pricing, used Flippin' Out instead

  • ?

    industry_signal: Deep Root Pinball fraud has narrative precedent (Heighway, Dutch Pinball, previous startup failures) creating skepticism around boutique manufacturers and startup claims without proven product shipping

    high · Hosts emphasizing 'show me a physical machine' requirement; noting new startups now face much higher burden of proof; mentioning multiple prior failures

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Deep Root Pinball's collapse resulted in staff (animators, designers) absorption by competitors including Spooky Pinball; talent market benefited from Deep Root shutdown

    medium · Spencer referencing Deep Root staff moving to Spooky Pinball in KB context; discussed as industry talent redistribution

  • ?

    announcement: Spooky Pinball announced Halloween and Aliens releases simultaneously on Monday (day after podcast recording), demonstrating company product velocity

    high · Spencer noting 'following Monday the news broke about Spooky Pinball and releasing Halloween and simultaneously Aliens'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Established manufacturers (Stern, JJP, Spooky) maintaining market dominance with full order books; new startups face extreme difficulty entering market due to capital, manufacturing, and community trust barriers heightened by Deep Root collapse

    high · Hosts noting JJP/Stern/Spooky 'not going to come out of this looking worse' from Deep Root scandal; new entrants facing higher skepticism

    • 4:49
    The pinball community obviously got super hurt. Anyone who put in pre-orders obviously is going to lose them.
    4:57
    Assumedly. Yeah, but damn, the retirees in that case, the people who actually trusted him to help invest their money so that they were better off. I mean, here's the thing. If the pre-orders are in an escrow, as they should be, there's a chance that pre-order money will be recoverable. So it's not completely over for people with pre-order money, I would say. I mean, I'm not a lawyer. I am not an economist. I'm not an accountant, so I couldn't say for sure. But if it works how I think it's supposed to work, there is a chance, you know, that they might come out at least whole. But it's a crushing disappointment for the people who did have faith or even the people like me who are just like, ah, fuck it. Let's see how it works out because we really could have used a big success story, even a fucked up long-term one like, you know, Deep Root was turning into.
    5:52
    And, yeah, naturally it's just going to be another example of, you know, pinball is hard. Unsavory people are getting involved in pinball. And it's going to make it that much harder for the next spooky to, you know, get off the ground because people will have very, very little faith in startups. On the other hand, it does make Skit B look a lot less serious now, doesn't it?
    6:16
    Right? Hey, John Pompadour's record is still just as tarnished as it always has been. If anything, at least some of the J-Pop people came out of it a little bit better off than they were, but yeah, it's definitely not going to do anything for his reputation.
    6:34
    I'm going to call it, man. He's going to be at JJP next year. Steve Richie will be kicking his ass though everybody even people that were naysayers like me from the beginning you know I remember you know we talked about this from time to time on and off the show it was like well crap they haven't taken anybody's money you know so right but I mean you know like they haven't asked for any pre-order money on the games and we're like well they say ridiculous stuff you know and it's like this is nonsense but well you know what man they haven't asked for a dime from anybody so screw it, let's see where this ride goes, you know. And they won't cop to it. That was me. I was the one who was always like look, yes they seem shady, yes the dude has a big mouth, but at least he's putting his own money, which it turns out he wasn't where his mouth is. And then he did take money, and then he shit the bed.
    7:29
    Sorry, am I too loud? No, you're great. No, you're doing great. Apparently I'm taking the sound levels in here. Okay. I'm trying to sit back from the microphone, too. I'm trying not to lean in. It's certainly getting on. We're all... Yeah, you're doing fine. Don't worry. On this podcast, we are the bastions of professions.
    7:47
    I'm more faster. Yes, you are. Our production is... Actually, no, I... Our production is second to none. I mean, it's second to everyone. There you go. Well, my basement is almost finished. The bathroom, the concrete is drying.
    8:01
    Orchard Dungeon, go. There you go. And then Monday, the contractors come back in, finish the tile, finish the bathroom, and then it's done so I can move into my office. Then I'm going to set up the – I'm getting some new mics. I'm going to set up the mixing board, start working on that. So we should see some improvements hopefully down the road. But, hey, you know what? We're getting content out there, and that's what's really important. The kids love us. It's worth what you pay for it. There you go. To put a little topper on the last conversation there, I think what I have learned about pinball companies is that if you want to claim to be a pinball company, the easiest way to do it is to start making a product and then to show your product. Regardless of whether or not you're creating a company to do it, whatever, show me a pinball machine and show me that you've got everything that you need to make a pinball machine. Forget about the company. If you've got an awesome product, people will buy it. But if you tell us we're going to make a company and it's going to be the next revolutionary thing and all these other companies are going to lose so much market share from us because we're going to do it new and we're going to do it cool, it's all talk until you see a physical machine and the capability to make lots of machines, like bar none. That's why Haggis is doing just fine. And that's why... I haven't heard of Haggis shipping more than one game. With Celts? No, I've seen Celts. Have they done more than one Celts? I know they ship one.
    9:33
    I have heard and seen a few and seen pictures of people with them in their house. Well, that's a few more games than Heathrow shipped. I'm not going to say hundreds or anything. And then, of course, the crew making the remake of Fathom. Well, that's the same people. Right. So, again, same thing. The money where their mouth is, they actually have a product, now they're going into this. Yeah, well, let's see. Let's hope that it goes real well for them. They seem like they end up. And now that we have me on recording saying how great they are, if it does mess up, I'll come back on. You didn't say they were great. You simply said that they're shipping products. They actually have a product, and that's what's the start. And they can prove, they've actually proven, they actually have a manufacturing facility. Right. The irony of what happened with Deep Root is also, like, I think that a lot of people, you know, again, myself included, were really giving them the benefit of the doubt because apparently Robert was a pinball aficionado, a rich pinball aficionado who simply wanted to get into the business to do things the way that he thought that they should be done. I mean, again, it's just a real shame that it just turns out that he's another scamster, you know. We really needed this to be a success. You know, I mean, it's probably not going to hurt our established players. Like, I don't think JJP, Spooky, or Stern are going to come out of this looking worse. And hopefully it doesn't hurt the smaller guys, the haggises of the world. But, again, I think it's going to make it harder for the next little company with a big idea to get in the game. because, yeah, you know, people can only get pushed so far. A lot of people, this is their third, fourth time being burned. And, I mean, even though some companies pulled the rise from the ashes thing, like apparently is happening with Dutch Pinball and, you know, Pinball Brothers, which I still think is a giant, like, a giant situation for people who were in on Highway Aliens. And, you know, now we've got the Pinball Brothers Aliens, and I think they got left holding the bag. but it's apparently out there.
    11:45
    You know, it's just like, who's going to get in the game next, if anybody, and, you know, how trusted are they going to be? I can guarantee... I'll give you $8,000, sir. I can guarantee you, okay, to any new aspiring pinball companies, I can guarantee your success if you just do this one thing, this one little thing. Stay the fuck away from John Papadu. He's poison he's a cancer, he's a fucking turd in the punch bowl. Serious, this guy. It doesn't feel like hiring Hitler to play in a band that your kids barm around in. That seems a little harsh.
    12:26
    I mean, yeah. A little. That's just like... He's clearly not helping anything. I mean, obviously, yeah, he's not a proven winner.
    12:39
    I mean, What was the company he did before Zidware? Papadood. With the little pinballs. Why can't I think of the name? Zizzle? Zizzle shipped some games. Well, he was just a hired gun to make it. They were just a toy company.
    12:58
    Yeah, but they made little tiny pinball machines. Okay. Like, he played the Zizzle pinballs. I mean, they're obviously not real pinballs, but, I mean, you know, they're something. like, if he's working for somebody, he has the capacity to design an interesting and innovative product. Like, as much as you like to shit on Papa Duke, his games are loved.
    13:23
    And there are still people who are like, look, I would love to see him succeed. And shit on his fucking front door. Knock on the door, wait for an answer. How much money did you have invested that you lost with? Zero. Okay, there you go. So, get over it. I love pinball, and I hate You're hating too hard.
    13:43
    It's a shame this didn't work out for him. It's not his fault. I seriously doubt that he was the one talking grandmas out of their retirements. But it just goes to show the kind of guy who will hire John Papadu.
    13:56
    And everyone thinks Dirty Jack is pretty sketchy, too. So I think it's going to work for JJ Phoenix. Probably for minimum wage. you know I wouldn't want that guy to be the guy that says you want fries with that okay anyway you wouldn't get any fries where the fries at John they're magic but you can't have them so the one thing I did like about the thing that Deep Root had done was to try and do something with a lockdown bar that was more than just a lockdown bar. Like, they seriously tried to do something new. It had issues, but at least there was some tech and money and resources spent, and it's kind of an idea that's now seemed to make its way into CERN, albeit very, very simply in terms of that insider connection QR code that's on its apron. Well, why does it look shitty? like it was a lame idea, but it looked like it was a cool game. And it looked like it worked. You know, like I said, the drag of it was, again, I don't think it's Papa Duke's fault. I think Papa Duke did what he was supposed to do. He delivered a workable design. Some mechanical engineer made it work. You know, it simply was with a company that either didn't have the ability to manufacture it and then, as it turned out, was built on a throne of lies.
    15:31
    You sit on a throne of lies! Well, there you go. Well, Jeff brought up this third connectivity, which is our next topic.
    15:39
    Nice segue. Yeah, beautiful segue, Jeff. Like a professional. Trying to help move things along. Fucking professional.
    15:49
    Straight out frozen. The best episode of this show so far was the one that my wife was on. And I think Spencer will agree with that. Now, my wife's been podcasting for 20 fucking years, and so she just kept us moving along. So, good job, Sarah.
    16:06
    That is an interesting new start. Oh, I'll let you intro that. Yeah, what about Stern? Stern Connectivity. From one sketchy pinball machine to another.
    16:19
    No, Stern's not sketchy. And did anyone get a chance to listen to that Insider podcast at all? I didn't get a chance to hear what they were talking about, other than I saw the video with what appeared to be a displayable QR code that was embedded into an apron. And with that came connectivity to report, I'm assuming, the person who's playing on the game or to link it up. And I'm assuming more features similar to what Scorbid has available. I'm thinking you're probably the expert on this because I'll be honest, other than somebody telling me that it was announced on the Stern Insiders podcast, I haven't heard anything, or the announcement, I haven't heard anything about it. Wow, great show prep, guys.
    17:08
    Hey, well, you know what? It's the high level of competency that our listeners keep shooting in for. There you go. Do you guys remember Transformers? Transformers. On Transformers, that was like their first game with a QR code, and it did something. I don't remember what now, but if you click the QR code. I think it just took you to sternpinball.com slash Transformers. I think it did. I think you're right. But, yeah, so they got a QR code, and it's supposed to, like, you can have, like, leaderboards play against people remotely, which, you know, in the age of COVID, that's not a bad thing, you know. yeah well the scoreboards I think is one of the things that I think we've all kind of had called from the get go like Stern's online scoreboards the capability of doing online tournaments and events like what was that Stern event that they just did with the Avengers the pin clash like that was super cool and other than you know Brian and I were actually talking about this today other than the fact that they probably need to come up with some sort of way to make sure that the pins have a similar setup and the glasses on them. I think that that's going to be the epic win of the whole connected story. Because I think that being able to compete against people remotely will up interest, at least among competitive people. You know, if you're the kind of person who plays pinball because you just want to zone out and have it be a little zen and listen to the sounds and watch the lights, this might not sell you on anything. But for the people who give a shit about their scores and they participate in leagues and tournaments and stuff like that, this feature will probably be a real decision-maker for them. I'll admit, man, I haven't even set up a score of it on my cousin Roses. But online downloads, online updating is pretty fucking cool. Yeah, man. You know, I want to see where it goes. One thing I have a question about, and probably nobody knows this yet, because, you know, I ordered my Deadpool back in June. It's supposed to be here in December for the new run. And is it going to be backwards compatible or just from, like, Godzilla or whatever the next game is forward? they said it was what the someone I saw a list somewhere and they didn't there's nothing said about backwards compatibility yet I'm sure they'll figure out a way to do some add-on kit for older games but maybe they won't who knows well you know because it's still a Spy 2 game so you know it shouldn't be that difficult it'll be definitely worth revisiting when we get to see some examples of it live. I know that they're just talking about it at the moment. I'm sure they've got more than I'm sure they have prototypes out there somewhere, but until we actually get to see it in use and see what the UI looks like and how it's displayed and what users can do with it, I think we're all going to be pretty much guessing based on what we've seen before with Scorpit. More importantly, what Stern can do with it. Yes. You're running an authorized code. Are they going to turn off your game or automatically install the right code on there? Who knows?
    20:42
    Yeah, exactly. Oh, and side note, because we know about my Deadpool, I got a call yesterday. My Escalera is going to get delivered Monday. Yay! All right. So as soon as the rest of my office My office and the bathroom gets done. Where I got my desk and stuff right now, it's going to go back to the office. All my desk and a bunch of shelves and stuff are sitting temporarily. They're going to go in the office and the storage area.
    21:13
    The pins are going to come downstairs finally out of the garage and get set up. So, yay. That'll be sweet. I've been having to go out for my pinball. I don't have anything set up right now. Which I went out today because I went to the mall, took the boys, and they went off and did their, you know, whatever, ticket mashers or whatever. I just sat there and played pinball.
    21:39
    So, quick question for you, Spencer. Did you buy that? Did you get the original Pro? Did you buy a Pro or a Premium, for example? I bought a Pro. Okay. And did you get the regular pricing or did you get the increased pricing? No, I got the regular price, but I paid for it back in June. I ordered it in June, and I just said, look, man, I got the money now. Can I just pay for it now? So they're like, yeah, no problem. So I just paid for that in Esquire up front and just like here, and I know it's going to be a wait, so no problem. Because I wanted one right now, and they did have a couple of distributors who had it right now, but they wanted more for it. I don't know about their reputation like one of them was like really shady shit it was like you know wire transfer money I'm not doing this it was more money plus tax plus shipping and so I ended up going largely on your recommendation Jeff because I know you had such good luck and I know his rep you know I already knew his rep was pretty solid I ended up going with Zach over at Flippin Out I want to meet the dumbass who tried to steal $7,000 from you. Yeah, no fucking shit, right? You know, it's like. They're just like, hey, before we even go into this conversation, I want you to know that I'm extremely heavily armed.
    23:04
    So, yeah, it's like you have no idea who I am, do you? Smoking you like a pack of pools to me is like a walk in the park on a sunny day.
    23:18
    Well, that's excellent. I mean, I don't know. I think that Deadpool Pro is going to be an excellent game.
    23:30
    There's two other distributors that I know personally. They're good, good people. I mean, I know others, too, a little bit. I mean, they have good reps. But, I mean, like JJ over at Game Exchange. But it's kind of the same boat. He wasn't getting any for God knows how long. And then I'm linked up with the pirate, and it's like, he said, we're not even getting any pros in the next run, just premiums. And so those pros, like, when I started calling, like, the pros for the next run were already, like, when I got a hold of Zach, he's like, I got two left. I was like, I'll take one. And he goes, you know, they're not coming until December, right? And I'm like, don't care. Everybody else is out too. And, you know, so that was one of the three people I would go with, because I know, you know, the rep is just solid and the pricing and everything else. There are some other people that also have a solid rep, but the pricing is more. Or, like, you know, they don't do pre-shipping or, you know, or, or, or. And I'm like, okay, you know, I'm just going to go with solid, you know, proven solid reps. If anything happens, I know I'm going to be covered because that's a lot of money. And that's, you know, so that's where we're at. And you came out ahead. Yes, I did. With that price bump, you actually ended up saving 500 bucks because you had a little faith in the right people.
    24:50
    And, yeah, now you're going to get your game, and you're going to get your game for the original price. You know, man, solid reputation is everything with me. And these guys, you know, the guys I talked about all have it. And, you know, on this one, hey, God willing, I'll be able to order another game down the road and give somebody else a little bit of money too, you know. Really, because, like, I'd really like to get a Mandalorian. We're going to talk about that in a little bit.
    25:15
    So, if anybody else has anything about connectivity, cool. If not, let's move on to the Stern price increase. Nice segue. Nathan, we've already been talking about it. Yeah, yeah. So, what is that?
    25:27
    Pretty much. So, you said it was $500, and this is something that's still, I was just told a little earlier, and I already forgot. It was $500 more for a pro now and $1,000 more for a premium. $1,000 for a premium. And I guess that's going to be more retroactive because there's no limited editions currently on sale, and we still haven't heard anything about what's happening on LEDs.
    25:52
    I mean, so, like, how about those sort of more premium ones like Elvira? Do you think that's going another grand up as well, or is that probably already? Didn't that go up like $600 a few weeks ago? They already bumped those earlier this year. And that was where there was that big controversy about, like, they canceled existing orders and then charged more money. And then some distributors were coming back on that and whatnot. So I don't know how that turned out. But, I mean, I know that we had a couple people who were kind of, you know, in on that. Bob was kind of in on that, although we probably should have mentioned that. But one of those things about that was everybody was just sort of like, well, it's those Super LEs. Those Super LEs are those, you know, premium, no-pro models. Like, the price hadn't gone up since Batman 66. It's a little bit understandable that they're going to bump the price on that. I don't think anybody foresaw that Stern was going to do a large price increase. Although, if you look at their track record, you know, it had been a slow but sure $100 or $200 per year, you know, bump. So I think a pro is like anywhere between, what, depending on the game, $59 to $6,300 already. Do you think those price bumps are going to be due to supply? They just have such low supply that they may as well, they need to bump it because there's just too much demand. And in order to try to lessen demand so they can account for the amount of supply they're getting, that they're just, hey, we've got to bump this up and try to knock a few people out. I think the same thing that I thought with JJP. It's just like, why not? Well, yeah, they have a static captive market. The only reason why you'd raise prices is if you wanted to get more money first, but then on top of that would be we can't make as many, so a price increase is a great way to just stabilize demand. Well, they don't want to dissuade traffic, right? But here's the deal. You already can't keep up with demand, so you've got thousands of gains that are waiting to be shipped. Okay, great. Why not bump up the price? You know, if somebody really wants it, they're going to pay and you're going to get more money. Worst case scenario, it's going to give you a chance to catch up with your orders while at the same time making more money. And you know what? Six months down the road, 12 months down the road, whatever it is when they catch up, hey, man, this is reality. Stuff doesn't usually go back down in price. So they're probably not going to be like, okay, now there's $6,000 again. But if they do, nobody will be pissed off. Oh, yeah. You know, they'll be like, oh, great, the price dropped. I'm going to order a game. So it really you know the only losers in that situation were the people who right now were about to put in an order and didn have it in because it just cost them to The people who did have an order in, like yourself, you just had a $500 come up. The people who just recently bought a game, they can feel like they just had a $500 come up or a $1,000 come up. Right. You know what JGP did.
    29:10
    There's no games out there, man. And Mandalorian has been sold out for like a month now, like everything. Like there's – did you look at all the vendors' websites? About the only thing that's available is a few Led Zeppelin pros.
    29:29
    And I think a couple weeks ago, I think Cheddar bumped up to JJ, had like two Guardians pros. And that's – man, it's a desert out there. Try getting a new in-box game, man. You know, you're down to, like, maybe a Hot Wheels. Maybe. Everybody else has sold out of everything, you know, and there's a six-month-to-year backlog. I would take a Hot Wheels, too. That's a hell of a game. You and me both, brother. You know, Rusty and I were talking about it yesterday or last night. Yeah, we're talking about Hot Wheels. For the money, I think Hot Wheels is a great pick. I'm really interested, now that CGC is getting back in the game, to see what's going to happen with the remake pricing. I think it's all going to be $1,000 higher across the board because, you know, the $6,000 that they were charging for the classics of Attack from Mars and Monster Bash were by far the best deals in pinball, and I really regret not jumping in on those now. Yeah, because those are $8,000 to $9,000 now. The couple of distributors that have some Monster Bashes, because when I was looking at Deadpool, I was seriously considering Attack from Mars first because Rusty and I were like, all right, we can get one game because our remodel on the new house went a little more than we initially thought. And I was like, so, okay, so definitely one new game. And we went Deadpool or Attack. And I'm like, well, let's look at an Attack from Mars first. I'm like, okay. And it's like the standard models, nine grand, the couple of distributors that have one. Right, but that's just the distributor gouging. Yeah, it is. The Chicago Gaming's price was still $6,000. Exactly But yeah but if Chicago Gamings he's like these guys are getting nine grand For these things and they're doing the same thing For Monster Bash They were up to like $8,500 last I looked Because I was thinking I really like Monster Bash too And I went okay $59.99 for Deadpool free shipping Done you know I'm in Let's do this And send me an Escalera too because I'm like dragging These bitches down those stairs with a house with a basement now.
    31:44
    But yeah, so I mean, and then, okay, so I got free shipping from one of several really awesome, really good reputable distributors, because there's a bunch of good ones out there. I can't think of any that aren't good, just some are charging more than others. And that's the right, that's cool. But yeah, man, it's just, you know, like you guys say, it's supply and demand. Now, right now, the companies just can't get the damn things made fast enough, which, good problem to have, you know.
    32:17
    Yeah, well, good problem for them. I just, you know, it will make me think twice about the brand new next stern, you know, whatever comes out. It'll be like, well, okay, that's 65, so if you want the pro, that's what we're in for these days. And then that means whatever I sell has got to cover that, or now I'm using that to factor in the equation even more, and $500 is not an insignificant amount of money to be just tossing aside saying, well, that's just the cost of business. And then for a premium, even more so. I know I've got a couple of premiums downstairs, and this would make me rethink, like, Well, I don't know if I need to be jumping in on that right off the bat. It's 8 grand now, right? Well, you hope that some of this money is going to go into the bomb, right? Like, you hope that maybe for your extra $500, you're going to get more intricate games. You know, maybe if it's $6,500 but it's a better pro, great. You know, if it's $1,000 extra but it's a better premium, great. I mean, obviously, it's a cash grab, right? Like, you know, they need more money. You know, maybe they don't need more money, you know, but if the numbers that we've heard about the margins on these games is even remotely true, you know, they're making a couple thousand on a pro. They're doubling up on a premium, you know, because they don't cost that much more to build a premium. They're more than doubling up on an LE, right? They see what games are going for on the secondary market. There's no point in giving away money so we can afford to charge more. So, you know, let's hope that what their logic is, it's like, okay, yeah, we're going to put an extra $250 into our pocket, but let's drop an extra $250 under the bomb and, you know, maybe we can afford wire ramps on the Mandalorian next time. Or everybody gets a QR, everybody gets the inside. Or everybody gets a QR code and a dongle. That's an expensive piece of hardware Or maybe washers Well that's why That's why JJP went up a thousand The washers are not cheap And there's special pinball washers You can't get them at any hardware store It has some depleted uranium in it That's what makes them melt through the clear coat So powerfully That explains everything Well hey man Not without fuzzball, I bought the fucking game from you.
    34:58
    You know, somebody brought that up a while back, that like, JJP's just going, now with the whole, you know, Deep Root saga, it's like, the heat's off in them, man. Nobody's talking about their playfields now. Yeah, I don't know if you're in any JJP communities. Trust me, the heat has not gone anywhere. There are a lot of butt-hurt people. But, hey, you know what, Matt? It's 12,000. Okay. We just had this conversation. Every one of those butthurt people, yeah, they're into a $10,000 game. Yeah. Okay. You know, and a lot of people are like, look, I am not in on the next JJP. You know, I am out on Toy Story or whatever's next. Now, we'll see what happens, you know, when the actual, you know, shit hits the fan. But it's definitely one of those things where, you know, their attitude about the playfield issue, playfield gate, whatever you want to call it, on Dozen Roses and Willy Wonka and Pirates of the Caribbean is not helping them. So, you know, that's a whole other thing entirely. But, yeah, it's a. Don't forget cricket stickers on the coin door. Oh, yeah. Well, that's just bitches being bitches. But, you know, I mean, you know, I took my guns and roses completely apart and I addressed all the trouble areas, you know, covered up a lot of damage, a lot more than I thought I had, in fact.
    36:22
    And, you know, I'm happy, you know, with the deal that I got on the game and I really like the game, which is a blessing because if I was in that game for the money, I'd be fucking hot. You know, if I was thinking, yeah, man, I'm going to play this game for a few months and turn around and get every damn that I'm into and out of it, I'd be fucking hot because now nobody's going to look at an early run Guns N' Roses and just be like, oh, it's funky dory. They're going to be like, oh, shit, aren't these the ones with the bad play fields? And I think that this is going to, I think that this stink is going to stick to JJP until they release a product. And Guns N' Roses will never be that product. Everyone's still like, are the new ones good? Well, they have washers and different posts, but who knows?
    37:05
    Until they're mixed in, that play field is absolutely fucking rock solid. Yeah, they're going to be digging out of a hole. But since they're a year back ordered, I guess they don't care that much. There you go. Hey, what's the deal with Merca? Do they have a fucking Tom Sawyer or a Huck Finn over in Germany going, well, why washing the play fields as fast as we can, Ant Folly? You know, I mean, what the fuck, man? Get rid of Mirko. If you read the story, you know that the whitewashing thing was actually a brilliant business move by Tom.
    37:37
    It really was. He got all the kids to do his work, and he got a dead rat and a string to swing it from. There you go. It's like, win-win, babe.
    37:50
    Well, let's hope that now that JGP has Steve Ritchie, that they can turn around the next game and with that next game also come out with a play field that meets better standards or at least does something similar to Stern where they just pin it out. Oh, they've already announced the Steve Rich again, JJP. Did they? Yeah, it's called high-speed wear.
    38:15
    It's called dimples and cracks. Oh. Oh, hey-o. Okay. You know, and that's the rub Because every time we get a new JJP title, we're like, fuck, this is amazing. It plays great. It's a lot of fun. It's interactive. There's all kinds of cool stuff on the play field. The light show, the arts and music, you know. They check all the boxes. Well, right now, no matter what Stern does, JJP games are the event in the pinball world. They're the big release. They're the new Corvette or the new Lamborghini Countach. Like, they're the dream machine. Or like the new Bronco with every one of them, they're replacing the roof because it's bad.
    39:06
    Well, I mean, I get that. If we go a little further down the road and JJP was actually replacing parts, you could make that analogy. But ultimately what it comes down to is, you know, despite their problems, you know, JJP is definitely making the nicest games out there. All right, man. Guns N' Roses is beautiful, and it's a blast to play. I love that game, and I love playing yours, Dan, and when it was Jeff's. And is Steve Ritchie on the team? Yeah. Oh, yeah. It actually, you know, it has a chance that, yeah, you know, I guess the next game's a Lawler, right? That's what they're thinking, but. Toy Story. Yeah. Is that the hot rumor, Toy Story still? But, you know, with Steve Ritchie coming up, I mean, again, It's just that much more of an attraction, you know, to people who believe that, you know, those are the best games, you know.
    40:04
    And being a two-time JJP owner now, sitting in the room with a two-time JJP owner who I bought all my JJP games from, I think that, like, you know, having done it, I can testify. Right. There's really no contest in terms of the experience of the game itself, the menus, the detail that went into the games. Yeah, the quality is apparently not what we would hope for it to be, but the actual ownership experience in terms of just, like, what those games are like to own and use, it's pretty fucking cool, man. You know, I just hope that, like, they can fucking pull out of this situation. And, again, I think that having another legend, you know, because they've already got Lawler, who, in some people's opinion, is the legend.
    40:58
    I don't know. I'm starting to think Eric Muener is the new legend, you know. Well, he's two games in. How many games have you sold? Yeah, I hear you. Okay, how many games has Pat Lawler sold? probably 100,000 I'm against the Steve Ritchie story probably 100,000 who designed Adam's Family High Speed, Terminator 2 Star Trek The Next Generation Funhouse, Whirlwind trivia who do those guys work for? Jersey Jack and they haven't bankrupted a company or did a little kids grandma right exactly bonus multiplier You got something multiplier Yeah I'm excited I can't wait to see what Steve's So we figure we're at least a year out Maybe more Pat Lawler's up next and then Eric Muner's got to be working on another game And they're still backlogged A year on Gums and Roses so It could be a while Before we see anything From uh you know from Steve Ritchie Via Jersey Jack pinball But hey man he's the king you know and I'm excited to see what he's going to bring to the table.
    42:14
    You know, I know a lot of people don't feel like he was doing his best work for Stern. You know, it had been a while since the high highs of ACDC and Star Trek, and I think that, you know, people didn't love Star Wars by Stern. You know, people didn't love Zeppelin.
    42:35
    You know, Black Knight, Swords of Rage is very polarizing. you know and I know a lot of people are saying a lot of mean things you know he's done it's time to retire move over let somebody else have the spot okay well he has there's another spot at Stern now they can bring in you know hopefully a hot shot young designer who wants to you know crank out some games and he can move on to making the super premium games at JJP giving himself you know 24 to 36 months of development time and a big bomb, you know, and hopefully that really turns into what he needs it to be. Yeah, I think the biggest problem with Steve Ritchie's last few projects, barring Black Knight, which I still think is a great game, is the licenses he was given. Not that they were bad licenses. Fucking Star Wars! He was given Star Wars! Yeah, it's the licenses. The biggest license in the world! Right, but the licenses, the money, all the bomb went into the license, okay? It didn't go on the play field. It went into, well, we got Star Wars. Okay, it's going to cost us... Star Wars is not a script game.
    43:46
    Like, it's not the fanciest, but I mean, that Hyperloop assembly thing obviously is not cheap. There's a lot going on in that game. Well, there is. Yeah, like, okay, Game of Thrones, okay? We know HBO is a bitch to work with, okay? Everybody said so. Look at the Sopranos. Pretty good game. God-awful art package. And that was HBO going, this is what we want. Well, you don't know what the fuck you're doing with pinball. Yeah, but that was also like, what, 2003? Yeah, I don't know. They didn't give a shit. They were just like, we just want to make a game. Put some Hot Wheels on it.
    44:25
    Well, I think what, you know, after being with Stern for so long, I'm sure that anybody who's worked at a company for that long is probably going to start looking for something new, something fresh, and sees opportunity. He obviously still has more to give. There's more he wants to do.
    44:47
    And I'm guessing that JJP just seemed like a good fit because he's, you know, that gives him that fresh place to try something that Stern might not have let him do before.
    45:04
    yeah no I think you're right and especially and there's the other bit too is with all the issues with supply and how many designers they already have in play and how many games that are already coming out for Stern I can't imagine that Steve Ritchie was getting as much time with as many engineers at Stern as all the other designers that that company needed and with, you know, JJP, I'm sure he's going to get treated very, very well. I'm sure they gave him a great package to come work for them. His name alone, obviously, based on how well he's known inside and by all the games that we all own, will lend him credence into what he creates next, and everybody will be looking forward to it. I do feel like what JJP needs now is another software guy.
    46:03
    Yeah. It can't just all be Keeper all the time. He needs, you know, first of all, they just need the variety of another software guy. But second of all, like, you know, now that they have three designers, if they want to start getting the game out a year or even every 18 months, they need someone else to do the software because everybody who owns the Pirates of the Caribbean is still like, hey, guys, can we get that last update so our game is finished? That would be really cool, guys. Y'all got some code in the back of that? Y'all got the code? I didn't get the code. I'm going to rub it on my face. No, they did that. They sent washers.
    46:44
    No, no, washers are not code. No, they just put a cross with two legs on the chip. They are different.
    46:50
    Trust me. Don't trust me. Yeah, I know. And I think that with a single coder, there's also the frame of mind of what that person really likes in code. And I see very many similarities between Pirates and Guns N' Roses.
    47:08
    They are similar in style in terms of what you do to build and get through the different aspects of the movies or the albums. and so I think a fresh perspective, Dan hit a nail on the head there get someone new in there with some different ideas and let them take a turn on the game because I think Steve's last couple games were instead of working with Dwight he was working with Tim Sexton those games were great, like you know I know a lot of people didn't care for Zap a lot of people didn't care for Black Knight But those are fucking cool games. Yep. You know, and if the theme does catch you and you like that style, you know, there was a lot to like there. So I'm looking forward to seeing, you know, what's going to happen again. Tim's going to probably work with somebody else at Stern. You know, there's obviously a set team on the Elwynn side.
    48:11
    You know, Elwynn's going to keep working with, God, I forgot the guy's name. Nagel. Nagel, yeah. He's probably going to keep working with him. Those guys have got a real, real good simpatico. It seems like Dwight is working with just about everybody else at Stern. He's just all over the place. But it would be really, really nice to see maybe Eddie get teamed up with Sex Pimping and see how that goes. You know, Dwight Sullivan can keep working with John Borg. Rick Nagel can keep working with Ellen.
    48:47
    And then switch it around, you know, get some fresh perspective. I think it's a pretty good idea, you know. It'll be interesting to throw out Western software in a post-Lyman world.
    49:01
    Definitely. Now, you know, it's, I mean, everybody has something good to bring to the table. All these guys are all pros. You know, I could talk about Tim Sexton Talk about Yeah, there you go You know Mike Vinicore, Tanya Kleist, you know Got to meet them at the last Golden State Talk with them, they bring a lot of interest What did Tanya work on again?
    49:29
    Nancy Kerrigan's knee Oh, he was on Guardians, right? Guardians, I think too, yeah That dude was a cool cat And then Mike Vinicore, same thing He worked on Minicord just kind of works on everything, I think. But, I mean, that doesn't mean he's headed up a game. But, yeah, Tanya, yeah, that guy's worked on some cool shit. Yeah. So, but, I mean, everything. And, you know, like, oh, God, now I can't think of his name.
    49:55
    Did Star Wars. Good code. Oh, wait. What's that? Yeah, Dwight did Star Wars and Mandalorian. Yeah. Which has a great, great rule set. For all the people who bitch about Dwight Sullivan and his rule sets, man, you guys should play Mandalorian. It's, like, the play field is fine. It's pretty standard. But, man, the rules in that game are so fucking cool. It is. Like, it is. And it's come a little ways with the new update. I can't wait to see what, like, you know, because it's still just like .97, .98. I can't wait to see how that game matures because I think it really does have the potential to have some of the coolest software. I were in a pinball machine. Excellent use of the assets.
    50:40
    And it's a real, like, to me, it's as adventuresome as I think a pinball machine has been. You feel like you're a character. You feel like you're acquiring equipment and using the equipment to do adventures and jobs. And on top of that, it plays a mean game of pinball.
    50:57
    Well, there you go. We were going to talk about it later, so let's just keep talking about it now. Yeah, I like – that's high on my list of next game after Deadpool for, you know, a new inbox or even a good used one is Mandalorian because, like you said, you know, I love the show. I love the theme. I like the layout well enough. The rule set – and at first, I know we talked about this off air a couple days ago, Darren. I was like, man, I don't – and Sparky – hey, shout out to Sparky. He was like, no, I think that's going to be really cool because I was like, man, it's going to be like playing a board game that's going to just slow up the action. And Sparky's like, no, no, I think it's going to be really cool. It's like, well, Sparky, you were right, dear brother. And Dan, you brought it up and went, man, you know, I was wrong. I was like, this is really awesome. And when I got to the opportunity when I was out and hooked up with you guys about a month ago, I got an opportunity to play the pro for a bit. Same thing. I had the same thing. It's like, okay, it doesn't slow down the action, but it's really cool, like, going and buying, you know, weapons and stuff and, you know, armor and searching for people and having these adventures like an RPG.
    52:11
    And, you know, hats off to Dwight, man, because he's really hit one out of the park on the rule set and the gameplay of that. And I think he's kept it simple enough for the casual player to go, oh, if I pick something, then I get to do something, you know, and we'll have an adventure. So I think it's a grand slam. I think that game's going to stay high in the charts and have long legs. I think for some people, getting into the first multiball, and in fact just sort of the multiballs in general, is a little basic. like, you know, because pretty much to play multi-balls, all you got to keep doing is just keep slamming the center, which is a very safe shot, although it can go wrong, and like, it takes a lot of shots, but you know, you will eventually get into multi-balls. The idea though is like, as a novice, you can play a multi-ball, and it's exciting, and you can have fun, but if you really figure out how to, you know, start off, I mean, the stack is the basic part, right? Like, you know, okay, I'm going to hit two ramps, I'm going to hit the scoop, I'm going to start a mode, I have my multiball ready to go, I'm going to start my multiball, then I've done the stack, you're going to get good points. If you know enough to use your flamethrower, okay, I'm going to double up all their shots, I'm going to get more points. If you know enough to set up your multipliers first and put it on top of all that other stuff, you're going to get a lot of points. If you're good enough to do a bounty, to hit a sniper shot, to get some vest guard, to go in there to buy your out of all, to get yourself already, like, the preparation, yeah, the layers of preparation are what's going to make that game attractive to the, you know, to the rules fanatic. The play field itself is a, it's a fan. It's a fan with some flourishes, I would say.
    54:04
    You know, and the shot mount feels very familiar. But, the rules set again, you know, even for somebody who's like, for the person who looks at Pirates of the Caribbean and goes oh fuck that like Mandalorian is understandable right any pinball guy can walk up to Mandalorian play around with it for a while and probably start putting together the rule set without like you know bending their mind or having to read a fact which is again what's really brilliant about it you know and I think that that's kind of I think Dwight learned going from Star Wars where a lot of people bitched that they just couldn't figure out the rules to Munsters or whatever. It's just okay. It's too dirt-ass simple to now this. I think this really has the easy to learn, hard to master, a lot of possibilities rules, but I think like you said, I think we'll make it very popular with the pinheads. And you know, on top of that, it's a good looking game. It's a great theme and they did good on the sound. You know, there's really not a lot of weaknesses. Add one more to it. There's also multiple game types. That's a new cool thing that I think Dwight is doing these days. Not just Dwight. The idea of you have a play field that doesn't mean you only need to play one kind of game. So you can add a co-op mode where you can get multiple people trying to compete to get as deep as possible. Yeah, you can do it in a hero mode where you essentially handicap yourself so that you don't get the benefit of cradling. Yeah, impossible mode. And there's those varieties, too. I'm sure that I forget if there's a practice wizard mode.
    55:52
    Nothing that I've seen yet. Okay. But that concept of, hey, this pinball machine now has multiple games, and those multiple games are also tracked. that is a brilliant thing and I think that what he's doing with it adds those layers in a way to make everyone understand it even at its most basic level and then you can grow on it from there. And I think you can buy your way past some shit. Like I think you can buy something to get you past some of the encounters and whatnot. But there's something that you're having trouble with. There are ways around it. And the wizard mode on this game seems very attainable. Like we were just downstairs playing Ninja Turtles. Jeff has a Ninja Turtles, which is a much, much better game than I initially gave it credit for. But man, that game is hard as balls. Like, you know, the rules are understandable. It's just a bastard. And I don't know if I'll ever see the end of that game. But I've already gotten at least a third of the way, if not two-thirds of the way through Mandalorian. So I do feel like if I sat down at that game and really put a little bit more time into it, I feel like I might get to the end of it. And it's the first turn in a while. Like, I don't Star Trek, and I never felt like I was going to get to Five Year Mission. You know, like, fucking, I'd get to Kobayashi Maru and be like, great, I made it. I never thought I was going to get to Encore on ACDC. You know, I'm not even close to getting to, what's the last mode I made?
    57:17
    No, uh, well, there's Run of the Hill. Run of the Bees, Run of the Hill. Like, I've never seen any of that. I haven't even gotten to Cyborg. Because you suck. Because I suck at that game. I like it, though. Yeah. you know, with Metallica. You know, I can get through a couple crank it ups but like do I think End of the Line is happening anytime soon Probably not Mandalorian I feel like there enough ways to play it but I will figure out a way to get to this in the way
    57:46
    Very true. And that's great. Did we lose Spencer? He's probably out. No, I'm right here. Yeah, you guys are doing great. I'm just letting you go. It's awesome. Well, that's what you want. I got to interject one thing I was thinking about. It's like when you brought up Dwight with Star Wars and then got all this heat for it, and then came out Munsters, which, great layout, you know, a theme that many people recognize, great layout, fast and smooth shooting, but, you know, real light on code. You know, I got to wonder, was he sitting in his office going, okay, all right, you don't want deep code like in Star Wars? Fuck you guys, here's Candyland, eat it. He was directed. Like, Gomez went to him and said, look, people liked Terminator 2. people liked the getaway. Do something like that. I think the problem with Munsters really is, I think that Stern overestimated the appeal of the license. I agree. Like, there's a certain generation of people who like the Munsters. I think that a lot of pinball people, and I've said this before, I think that they really had in their head it was going to be the next Adams family, and it wasn't. It was a board, a solid board, with tremendous heart. Yes. and, you know, good use of the sound, and I said, yes, probably a little light on the code. People were probably hoping for something a little bit heavier code-wise. Yeah.
    59:13
    And that was a lesson, right? You know, and it's a correctable lesson. Like, if they ever really wanted to go back, I'm sure they could throw another set of rules in that game, but I think that what really happened with that game is they sold what they thought they were going to sell maybe a little bit less and said, all right, well, we've done that, you know, like, no point in going back. I don't think it's going to sell us another, you know, 500 units.
    59:35
    I would still like one of those Black and White Premiums. I think that is one of the hottest looking games. That is beautiful.
    59:42
    It's just a little bit more accessible. It's a beautiful game. And it's fun to shoot, man. It really is a fun shooter. But, yeah, it's just, you know. I don't mind playing Monster Madness a few times in the game. There you go. It's like Monster Bash, right? If you have a good game of Monster Bash, you're going to see Monsters of Rock two or three times. At least you'll see Monster Bash two or three times. If you have a really good game, you'll see Monsters of Rock a couple few times. You know, and you'll hang up a billion, and you'll be like, wow, that was a fun game. You don't just go like, well, fuck this game. It sucks. I hate it. But, yeah, you might not be like, well, I need to have this game in my house, you know, until the end of time, because I've seen everything it has to offer.
    60:22
    Yeah. Decent location game. Oh. Amazing location game. Yeah. If it had a good license. We're talking about code.
    60:35
    GNR had a code update. Since you own it, Dan, you can speak on it better than anybody else here. Okay.
    60:42
    So, it's pretty much the same as what was there, except for we finally have the Desert Demolition album mode for Use Your Illusion 1.
    60:54
    And they made some other small tweaks. if you were to rate it from what it was on a 0 to 10 to what it is on a 0 to 10, what would you give it? I would give it an 8, and I would say that it went up to an 8.5.
    61:07
    If you like multiballs... Wait, wait, wait, wait. Desert Demolition originally was an 8? Oh, no, I was talking about, like, the code 1.26 or whatever it was, the 1.28. The Wizard Vibes. Oh, I barely played it. The thing with Desert Demolition before as well as just a screen that said Desert Demolition and, like, some bluegrass-y music. And, yeah, so it'd go from, like, a 1 to an 8, you know. But what it sounds like is it's sort of like a Mario Kart-y kind of mode where you're hitting ramps and shooting, like, at each other, which sounds pretty fun. It has, like, a real kind of Rat Fink sort of style. Like, they're all, like, monsters and go-karts and, you know, the music's amusing. So it's nice that there's something there. the problem is I just don't play a lot of the Use Your Illusion 1 songs so it's like it's probably the one that I see the absolute least. When I sat down to get to it, I jumped in there I think I played Live and Let Die which is the best Use Your Illusion 1 song and that song is like three seconds short even when you cash out the jackpot of starting Desert Demolition. You have to play for three minutes right? Yeah, so it's like two minutes and 55 seconds long. It's like, ah, fuck! I have to start another song and then I started another song and I played it and I got into the death and demolition mode and I probably lasted for like 10 seconds before I drained out and I just haven't like tried to do it again. I've had a lot of new games at the house to play.
    62:34
    So it sounds like it was a minimal code update overall. It was really more to just that was the big focus of that one thing so that he could move on to whatever else he needed. Do you remember if there were any code updates? No, there were other changes. Like, there were a lot of little tweaks and bug fixes and stuff like that, but, like, I didn't sit down and commit it to memory. Honestly, the code updates, like, are more amusing just because they're online. So, like, a little icon appears, and you just go, hey, do the update, and then you watch it happen. Like, I'm watching this bar move, and I'm just so tickled pink. But, yeah, I would have to go through and read the read me. But, like, I wouldn't say that I noticed, you know, it's not a night and day difference. Yeah. But, you know, again, they took a missing thing and they put it there, and that's what matters. I'm often in the beta program, which I'm probably the worst person to do that because I'm never going to submit a beta report. But I just thought it was cool, so I did it. And you just do it straight in the machine. You don't have to, like, send them an email or anything. You just go, I want beta code. And JVC is like, all right, download this update. And so, yeah, you know, you get this mode and now it's there. so there's not a big hole in the game when you actually do start Desert Demolition. What they really need to do, and I'm sure that you'll agree with this, they need to make album modes worth fucking playing. Yeah. Because they take forever, they're risky, and they're worth minimal points. They need to make Slash Solo worth fucking anything, because that mode is risky as hell and hard as balls, and I was watching this stream, I was watching the Buffalo stream the other night, And their strategy was just catch the ball, wait a minute, and time it out. And that's just horrible. Yeah, when your wizard mode is not playing, a mini wizard mode. Yeah, and Eric Meunier was watching that. Like, he was in the audience on that, so hopefully he, you know, has picked up on that. But, yeah, those modes, they need some points attached to them when they go to the next update because, again, you know, all the scoring in that game is in the songs. like you know you have great boosters you know and you get yourself you know let's say maybe 10 million points then you get into a song and if you do well you might hang 40 million points on the board in that one song yeah the scoring of Dozen Roses is completely wacky you know okay we have another mode great make it worth playing outside of song yeah songs are and the songs I mean don't get me wrong the songs are the stake man they are fucking awesome there why you play the game, but it's just like, I want to play Live and Let Die and then be fucking stoked that I unlocked the album mode rather than be like, oh, now I gotta play this fucking thing before I can play my next song and make some points happen. When I like Slash Solo, I'm like, actively like, oh, fuck, man, it's Slash Solo. And I won't time out a mode. Like, I've got standards. So I will try to hit the record and then lock the fucking ball and get to the next phase of it, and it kills me invariably. And honestly, the one mode that I'm tired of this game, even though it's a save mode, I fucking, I almost hate it when I drain out and I have to play Koma.
    65:48
    Like, I should probably just figure out how to disable Koma. Because I'm just like, oh, Koma ball save, great, just give me the fucking ball back. You know what, just turn it into a ball save, please. Don't make me play that fucking gurney mode. It's a cool mode, like the first few times I played it, I'm like, oh, fuck Koma, this is amazing. Now that I've played Koma, a bunch of times, I'm like, ah, fuck, coma. This is not amazing.
    66:11
    At least it's doable. I'm like Wizard of Oz. Fuck that save mode. Was it the rainbow Toto? Yeah. Fuck that.
    66:22
    It's a little hard to learn, so. What do I know about the new code? It's there. Okay. There's a new mode. I don't want to play it. I do want to play it, just to see it. Because the wizard modes are the mini-album modes. They're not wizard modes. I hate it when people call them wizard months because they're really easy to get to. The album modes are really cool. Like, every one of them has potential. They just need to add a zero to the scoring.
    66:44
    You know, Break Down the Wall, cool. Shall We Play a Game, cool. Desert Demolition has potential to be cool.
    66:53
    And Thirst for Carnage would definitely be the coolest if you could win it. Sing it, brother. I mean, the game's already multi-ball heavy. How about we turn them all into multi-balls, huh? Throw another ball in there. Fuck it. Give me a ball favor. It's got the roses. It's got like a six-minute per-game play time. Fuck, I mean, just bump it up.
    67:18
    Well, maybe we'll do that on Halloween or Ultraman. That game is fucking cool as balls, though. It is so good.
    67:26
    Halloween or Guns? Guns. I don't know the Halloween. I haven't played it yet. Guns is a badass game. Guns is fucking... That game is amazing. Yeah, it is amazing. I know some people in this room didn't fall in love with it, and I'm really happy that they didn't.
    67:40
    Okay, so if you had to pick Halloween or Ultraman, what would you pick? You know what? At first, I would have said Ultraman. Because I thought it looked better in still pictures, but when I watched the stream of them both, it's fucking Halloween all day, every day. I'll agree with that. I mean, watch the stream, but I don't give a shit about the Ultraman theme. and I think I'll be the odd man out I think Halloween does nothing for me as a pinball theme I love the movie I don't think it quite catches me the way that Ultraman does and I'm not even I did not watch Ultraman at all what I like about Ultraman is the general neat sci-fi themed old school sci-fi theme of a pinball machine I think that's what does it for me the most. You've got to watch the stream.
    68:34
    I was the same way. I was like, look, Halloween's fine. It's not even my favorite slasher flick, but I mean, you know, especially the people of our age, it's probably one of the first horror movies that we all saw. And I mean, it's definitely got a quality to it. And Ultraman was a show that I watched a few times as a kid, but just like in general, I like anime, I like rubber monsters, Power Rangers, whatever. So I'm like, Ultraman. it's fucking bright and colorful, it looks really neat, like when you see them both in still pictures, you think Ultraman and then you play them both, or you watch them both in motion and the game just makes so much more sense as Halloween, like you see what they did with the Halloween theme and that play field and like, I saw that play field and I said that game's gonna play like fucking garbage, like that game's gonna be junk I don't know if they're thinking, then you see it in motion and you watch him play it and you just sort of go like, damn, that actually looks kind of cool.
    69:34
    Like, and then you then they switched over, this was the was it Deathflip that did it? I think it was Deathflip. Yeah, because they were joking that bug looked like, that grown-up bug looks like Jack Danger's son.
    69:46
    And Charlie showed up with his worst ever kit and said, no, he's mine. But then they looked over and they played Ultraman and it was like, everything seemed so much more done. The display work was a lot better. The stuff on the play field all really seemed to flow better. I mean, just fucking Halloween looked like it was fucking cool, man. Well, I hope we get a chance to play it. We have a guy in the group. Shannon has one on the list. He has a Halloween on the list. Yeah, I'm looking forward to playing it. And Joe has an Ultraman, so we will definitely get to see him. The teams will do anything for me. They just never watched Ultraman. Like you, I've seen the movie Halloween. It's a good slasher flick, but I'm not a horror movie fanatic, so really fun to play. Hopefully. Yeah. I just hope that it's the beginning of spooky getting more horror. I can't wait until they do Showgirls. I love that horror movie. What's your favorite scary movie? Showgirls. No, that's my favorite horror movie.
    70:41
    Your favorite horror movie? Yeah. Okay. Yes. Come on. Sam doesn't like puns. Oh, I love Punishment. You know, for me, that was from Scary Movie. No. What's your favorite scary movie? It's a horror movie. No, no, no. But that was a movie. Scary movie. Do you remember that movie? Yeah. Was it a scary movie or a scream? That was a scream. Scary movie was the parody. Yes. God, that'd be fucking great, though, if they got the scary movie license and did a scary movie. Fuck. Fuck, that'd be amazing. You know, any pinball machine where they did, like, parody of something, I think, would be very cool. Like, a Naked Gun pinball machine. Or even Weird Al. What are those community shits? Dude, either of those would be great. Like Weird Al, I would murder somebody in this room to get one. Sorry, guys.
    71:33
    I'll take one for the team. Yeah, man. Naked Gun I would definitely want to play. Weird Al. The problem with Naked Gun is with Leslie Nielsen being gone and George, what's his name, being gone, who plays his commander. And O.J. being in prison. Yeah, fucking O.J. being in prison. Yeah, there wouldn't really be anybody. There really wouldn't be anybody to do the voice work on it. Yeah, and that's the all-movie clips. For voice actors. As far as Weird Al, Weird Al would be great. UHF would be like, I'll sell a kidney. Oh, yeah, like just any sort of Weird Al theme. And, you know, again, everyone's like, oh, what about the licenses? What about the parodies? It's just that Al's got so much music that's not parodies. You know, it's style parodies. It's not like licensed parodies. and there's so much goodwill for Weird Al in the music community. He could make it happen if he wanted it to happen. Yep. The licenses for the parodies wouldn't be an issue. You know, it would be a great game for, like, an American pinball to make, you know. Maybe it wouldn't be quite big enough for Stern, and Jersey Jack would probably be, like, severe overkill and wishful thinking, but, like, an American pinball or, like, a spooky pinball could really make something of Weird Al. And probably sell a good amount of games Because there are a fuck ton of Red Owl fans out there They sure could And we spend unbelievable amounts Of money on Red Owl stuff There's not much to buy Unfortunately No there's not He doesn't over merchandise himself I'll give you my quick thoughts on On Halloween and Ultraman When I first heard Ultraman I went Oh yeah I remember watching that as a little kid But it was like, it didn't clip, you know, because it was like, I haven't watched this since I was like six, okay? Six or seven, the latest. Halloween, dig the movies long enough. Yeah, this will be fun. Not, you know, not, oh, my God, I got to have this. And then I saw it and went, Halloween, okay, pretty cool. And then Ultraman, I heard the music and saw the film clips and everything. And it brought, like, all of a sudden it was like it opened this little door to my fucking youth. I went, oh, that is so cool. I have not seen the gameplay videos yet So that's where I'm at with it But I know there's times On Halloween And I Yeah just the Deathverse Spooky deserves So much goodwill Cause they You know They give so much They deliver what they deliver You know And uh I wish them nothing but the best of luck And I look forward to playing both of them I just wish they wouldn't sell out Before anyone gets a chance To put their hands on them But that's the world we live in these days Any game is going to sell out. Any game. You knew it was going to happen after Rick and Morty. Oh, yeah. Because everybody was going to be selling. The same thing happened with, you know, they sold through all of their first game, you know, by the skin of their teeth. They sold their 150. And then everybody's like, oh, my God, they sold out on the first one. So they bought out the second one. And the second one was kind of a bomb. Nobody really loved it. and so then Alice Cooper you could get an Alice Cooper and then their next title you know they did TNA and you could get a TNA TNA's unlimited and then yeah they announced that Rick and Morty and it restarted the cycle you know they sold 750 of them in a second and then this game was destined to sell out they're going to be out there you're already seeing people dumping their pre-orders and I think that these things are both niche-y enough to where like I think a lot of the flippers kind of, you know, they went after it, and then they realized, oh, you know, there aren't a lot of just closet Ultraman fans out there. Now, apparently, to hear Spooky talk about it, Ultraman is giant in Japan still, and they're really hoping to kind of establish sort of an overseas thing with this. Plus, I think they played it really smart. They made less Ultramans, and they also put the whole just sort of generic kaiju battle thing in it. And a lot of, like, Godzilla fans will get in on something that's just kaiju because, you know, the rubber monster suit. Right. The rubber monster suit is, you know, they're not just into Godzilla, but they're into all those other rubber monsters, too. So it's entirely possible that, like, that's going to find a fan base that's, you know, not just your Ultraman hardcores, but your Rubber Monster Hardcores, your Power Ranger fans, whatever it is, because, you know, it's going to be similar. You know, Ultraman is basically the genesis of the entire Super Sentai and the Power Rangers thing. But if they really wanted to sell thousands and thousands of units, or if Stern really just wants to fuck with them as bad as everybody thinks that they do, Stern's next game would be Power Rangers. And then all the Ultraman fans would be like, oh, fuck that. We're buying the hell out of this.
    76:27
    Dude. They'd be like well we're gonna do Godzilla for you guys and we're Gonna do Power Rangers so fuck off guys There you go Two birds with one stone What do we have next I lost my place okay I'm sorry Well no because I was looking up some info For a little bit of information down the road Oh P3's got a new game coming out Yeah Hopefully you don't know about it, because I don't. Oh, Sorcerer's Apprentice?
    77:00
    What? Sorcerer's Apprentice, right? I don't know. Something. Hold on. Yeah, I missed out on that one. So I heard that the next P3 game is a license.
    77:13
    Hold on. Yeah. And I seriously doubt it's a Disney license. No, no, no. It isn't that. Sorcerer's Apprentice? Yeah. It's not like Nicky and Jensen and all that. I don't think so. No, it's just, it looks more generic.
    77:30
    Like, you know, like just a wizard kind of game, not the Disney version. I just saw a still picture of it.
    77:42
    So. Well, this is cool. Cool. Did you see it yet? Yeah, we're looking at a video of it. So, for you viewers at home who are watching the YouTube video intro of Sorcerer's Apprentice right now, so don't sweat it. He'll edit this out.
    78:07
    He's not going to edit this out. I'm not going to edit this out. This is going to air live. People will get the experience.
    78:14
    This looks cool. I mean, if they throw some, like, art up on this upper playfield so it doesn't look so ugly and generic. Like, if they put a castle put-down on there, fuck, I would want a P3. Because I'm just a nut for plastic castles on playfields. What can I say?
    78:31
    I am, man! Like, I see a plastic castle on a playfield and I'm like, I want to own that. That's why I had to have a Medieval Madness. Oh, man, and I'm super, like, on the fence about trying to get into the, whatever the next ordering, because I had heard about them making more. I told Mike he could borrow mine and then after Mike has it, you can have it. Just don't get all retarded on me about it. I still want to play Heist. It looks really cool. I like the P3 multi-market platform. Oh, I think P3 is the fucking coolest thing in pinball. They just really need to get something that people want to buy. Because it's like, what, $10,000 for the base setup? Which isn't even that expensive these days, right? Right, when it first came out. And it comes with Lexi and, like, some games that use the Lexi setup. Right. Like, they really just need to get something that people really want. I mean, you know, remember when they brought this out, like, everyone's like, well, I can get, you know, two Sterns for the price of one. Right. Because a lot of them, though. Yeah, Stern Pro is by the way. You know, it's a modular system.
    79:45
    Sorry, what were we saying, boss? No, that's the thing. when the Multimorphic first came out what, six, seven, eight years ago, whatever the hell it was, six, seven years ago, it's like you could still get a Stern Pro for, you know, five grand, you know, plus maybe tax and that was it. So you could get two Stern Pros for the price of a Multimorphic. Now it's like, well, I can get one Stern Premium or a Multimorphic. Yeah.
    80:12
    Or I can get one Jersey Jack game with a really fucked up play field or a Multimorphic. Yeah, it absolutely is a great-looking, like, system. The games are fine. The thing is, they just, they never had the artistic, they never had the artistic side of it, right? Like, Lexi Lightspeed has gone through a couple iterations. Yeah. And at best, the graphics were functional and the art was passable, right? And, you know, they've come up with better games since then, you know. Heist is, I guess, the big one. Cosmic Kart Racing, which looks kind of neat. But, yeah, it's just like the games are never like, yeah, Cannon Lagoon. The games are just never like, they always have like that clip art fucking free app sort of look to them. Like, they need to get a Chris Franchi or something on board to crank out some art for these things that's going to make them beautiful. because I've come to the decision in my life that, like, I will not have a game in my collection that does not look as good off as it does on. Like, fucking just, it needs to have good art. I know that that seems kind of shallow. You know, gameplay is everything. And I guess if a game had really great gameplay but it was ugly, I would keep it. But here's the thing, man. I had ACDC. ACDC is unequivocally a good game. And I just couldn't get over the fact that I just never liked how it looked. you know even Lucy just I was just like oh my god she is incredibly badly drawn she is not the hoochie for me so you know let's be fair it's got to look good and that's the one thing P3 has never had going for it does not look good the graphics you know the engineering is amazing it's perfect it's beautiful the graphics suck And the art is just not the best.
    82:13
    Yeah, ever since we talked about sport, ever since Metallica hit the sales floor, there's no going back. Exactly. You bring in Zombie Yeti, Chris Franchi, this host of other talented artists, and it's like you're not going back to the clip art. Or, you know, pinball art is back, and it's back in a big, big way. You know, people are going to pay for the total package. They want really good hand-drawn art, and they're not going to settle for anything less. Yeah, you go back to the day, right? You go back to the days of Flash Gordon and Black Knight and Fathom and, you know, Xenon and all those games. Like, those games off our works of art. You know, they're just gorgeous. And, you know, we got away from that for a long time. Games looked very terrible. Somebody today, I saw an ad for Terminator 3, right? I think Terminator 3 is an underrated game that's actually got a really cool play field. And if you look at the build quality and the features for the era of Stern, you can tell that, I think it was like Steve Rich's first Stern, they really rolled out the red carpet for him. But that game is the ugliest. Yeah, ugly. ugliest pinball machine ever made. It's uglier than ACDC, which I always say is the ugliest pinball machine ever made. No. Fucking ACDC is like, you know, fucking a Da Vinci compared to the travesty that the Terminator art was. The Terminator art is really, like, dog ugly. You know, Terminator 2, that's a great looking game, you know, with the end of the skeleton across the playfield. Terminator 3, red, ugly, big photoshop, Did you know Decapitated Arnold had in the middle of the play field? Honestly, if they just took that Arnold head off, the game would look about 10,000 times better. I don't know.
    84:13
    But, yeah, you know, you're not going back. After Metallica came along and brought Pinball Arm back, yeah, there's no going back, you know. Games have to be beautiful.
    84:25
    Which, you know, brings me to the next one. I mean, I look forward to the P3. We all do. But, yeah, they've got to step up their art and something. Like, the Sorcerer's Apprentice looks really cool. Maybe that'll be the one. Yeah. I mean, if they stick a castle on that, like, I'm going to have to figure out how to get a P3. There you go. Well, Cactus Canyon's finally been announced, officially. And I guess they're doing something a little bit with the art. And it's not going to be the continued, but they say it's got more complete code. that's the hot rumor.
    85:02
    For what it's worth, I like that game, and I think it shoots pretty good. And I love the theme. It does have something that can compete with Cactus Canyon Continued. They're wasting their time.
    85:15
    That game is boring with the original code. It's not very fun. Cactus Canyon Continued code made that game an entirely, completely different game, and it's great. Yeah, it is a lot of fun with the Continued code, I'll give you that.
    85:33
    Yeah, Continued, I mean, the cool thing about Continued is it's got kind of an anarchy to it. Like, you can tell that it's a fan project, but it's a fan project by someone who knew what the fuck they were doing and went into it with Division, and you know, it steals assets and it uses music that they probably don't have the rights to, but they reached out and they got the real voice actors, and there's surprisingly brutal dot work, you know, and the girl gets killed by the train. And, you know, like it's such a fucked up experience, you know. That's the nicest way I can put it. It really makes Cactus Keating. And Cactus Keating is famous for one reason. It's the last traditional game. It's the last traditional Valley Williams pinball, and they made 700 of them or 800 of them. There aren't that many out there. you know the rules themselves were always kind of ultra unfinished feeling It a great play field The guns on the apron the drop targets you know the posts that grab the ball from either side so that you can have the shootouts the rising and falling mind, the animated or just articulated cowboy head, the mash toy, the train. It's a great play field. It just never had software to back it up. I don't think the software necessarily has to be Cactus Canyon continued, although, man, that Cowboys and Aliens mode, just fucking I love it. I got a great YouTube video of it if you ever want to see it. But honestly enough, it's just like it's got to have some code, you know. And I don't know who finished the code. I know they said they talked to the original teams. I know that Lyman Sheets is apparently at CGC now. That's the rumor I heard. Right. You know, maybe he's got his hands on it, but, I mean, if anybody can turn, you know, a game with an interesting history and potential into something that's really, really good, it's him. I love the sound and the art. I would love for there to be a reason in my life to actually buy a Cactus game because I borrowed one in the continued trim. I know Brian got to borrow it in pre-continued trim.
    87:46
    Yeah, it's a cool game. I just, you know, I just was never going to spend $10,000 or more on it, you know. And depending on what CGC can get it out there for, you know, if they're getting it out for, if they're staying around Stern Pro pricing for their Classic and maybe a little bit more for the Special, you know, maybe I would figure out a way to make one happen. Well, if they're sticking it still to Stern Pro prices for the Classic, pick one up, leave it in the box, and wait a year. Okay? Trust me, it'll come up in value.
    88:18
    Well, and here's the thing, right? As soon as you decide to do that is when it doesn't go up in value. Yeah, right. You know, like there's just, there's that law of diminishing returns. You can't, you know, eventually everybody tries to flip. And that's why flippers are bad for the hobby. You know, speculation, you know, creates bubbles. Bubbles always pop. Right now, those of us who own games, we're feeling pretty good. All of our games just went up in value $500, or at least $250, because as new games go, used games go. The cost of entry in pinball just went up. Yep. You know, my Mandalorian did not get any cheaper because Stern moved their price up, you know. Great. Congratulations to me. If I was going to sell it, I'd be really happy, you know. But on the flip side, if I start buying games because I feel like they're going to go up in value and putting them in a box in the corner, number one, I'm a fucking dick because I'm keeping them away from somebody who really wants them and is going to open that game and play it and enjoy it and share it with his buddies. And number two, I'm fucking investing $7,000, $8,000 in something that may or may not go up in value, and I could get left holding the bat. Right.
    89:34
    Now, I'm not trying to say that if you do flip games, you're a dick. Nope, that's exactly what I'm saying. You dirty flippers, go to hell. There you go. Well, with that said, if they do it in this game and you're a flipper, Spencer hates you. You know what? I really don't care.
    89:53
    I mean, we said all we can say about Cactus Canyon, pretty much. So, more Medieval Madness remakes, they announced, will be made, but not until 2022.
    90:05
    2022 is not that far away. I didn't say 2023. I think I said 2023. because I'm like, it's over. Yeah, 2023 I think. Chicago Gaming never said they were done making Medieval, Attack from Mars, or Monster Pass. No, they just got other stuff. They got, okay, they got finally, they've got Cactus Canyon coming out in a few weeks. They've got the return of Mark Ritchie. They got his game. They've got the Ben Hecht game. You know, their stable's full for a while. And so intermittently, in between games. They can run another batch of Medieval. They can run another batch of Attack Mars. God knows they'll sell. You know, no problem. I mean, you know, people want those games. I want an Attack Mars in the worst way, so. But here's the question. How much are they going to sell for? Well, I'm thinking the Medieval Madness, it'll probably be another run of just the standards, and they'll run them at probably around $8,000. Because they know they're going to sell. Well, Medieval were already $8,000, right? Yeah. Base? Base. They never had a $6,000 answer for Medieval. Right. Their base was $8,000 because that's what they started as. That's what they kept as. Right. Apparently, it was some sort of weird half-assed thing where they didn't want to fuck people who had already bought them, which, you know, they kind of did when they released a more limited edition. Thanks, guys. But at least they gave us an upgrade path, an affordable upgrade path, to where we could have spent about the same money as a royal edition, and we could have pretty much all the royal features. And, in fact, all the royal features if we were willing to do some extra work. So, okay, great. Then they had the $6,500 Attack from Mars Classic, and then they had the $6,000 Monster Bash Classic, at which point they moved the Attack from Mars Classic down.
    91:54
    Those were by far the best deals in maybe the history of pinball. Oh, I mean, other than Closeout Williams came back in the 90s. like a $6,000 brand new attack from Mars or Monster Bash and no matter how you feel about remakes versus originals and yes there are differences they're not exactly the same get over it it's just one of those things where it was like buying a Monster Bash for a Stern Pro price fuck that was a great deal and then if you want to spend another $1,500 you can get the XL display and the color changing lighting and the slightly nicer figures those were great deals I can't believe they're not going up in price a thousand bucks. I just can't. Well, we don't know if they are. We don't. But my speculation is that they probably are. In 10 years. Who knows? If Stern's going to go up in price $500 at the pro level, I mean, it would be absolutely insane. If they come out with $6,000 Attack from Mars and Monster Bashes again, it's on tape, mark my words, I'm buying both.
    93:00
    I don't need them, but I'll buy them because I'll feel stupid for having missed the deal the first time. Because that's just a fucking great deal. Even though, by all standards, the special editions, the middle one, is the best deal. Because you get the XL display, you get the built-in, you get the included color chip, and you get the extra features. And I think it was $1,000 or $1,500 extra. By the time you did all the math and the upgrades, you came out way. But yeah you were never going to beat those games You know fucking what a great deal Well you're going to get to see Some stuff in a maybe Maybe doubtful but just maybe At the next pinball show you might get to See and play The new Cactus Canyon Remake so It's going to be an expo right Well we have an expo coming up in October I didn't even announce that because, okay, well, damn, now I've got to look up online. Well, they did Monster Bash at Expo.
    94:05
    No, I know they did Medieval at Expo, and that was giant, and I'm sure they have Dallas Attack at Expo. So I'm sure that if they're going to do a Cactus reveal, they'll do it at Expo. And I'm sure it'll have cool armor, and I'm sure it'll have a great-looking topper, and I'm sure it'll have color-changed lighting. There's going to be an interactive topper. And a large display. The topper fort, they've announced it's going to be like a special interactive topper. Good, I hope so. Well, okay, so we have three pinball shows coming up in October that I'm aware of, okay? The first one is the longest-running pinball show west of the Mississippi, our own Pinagogo. And that's October 8th through 10th in Dixon, California. It's the Dixon Mayfair. and you can just type in just Google Pinnagogo if you don't know. If you're listening to the show, you already know Pinnagogo. Yeah, probably, huh? Pretty much.
    95:00
    Wait, what's the state called? Pinnagogo. It used to be called Golden State Pinball Festival, but we can't figure out how to put one of those together, so we moved it to October and we call it Pinnagogo now. There you go.
    95:15
    Yeah, and then I'm not going to make it out for Pinnagogo. God willing, if there's a Golden State this coming May, I'll be there.
    95:25
    It's just too soon, too long. If there's Pinagogo, we'll let you know how it is. Yeah, man. Well, you know what? You come back and give me a trip report. I want to go to that Rocky Mountain show, man. Yeah, man. That's the next one. That's the Rocky Mountain Pinball Showdown, Pinball and Arcade Game Room Game Show thing. And that's at the Denver Marriott in Denver, Colorado. and that's coming up October 22nd through 24th.
    95:52
    I'm really excited because that's a four hour drive. I was hoping I could crash at your house and go to it, but I'm like, ah, fuck, man. Why don't you just fly to Colorado? That's what I would do, right? Fly to Colorado and then instead of getting a hotel, I'd go to Spencer's, but he's four hours away. Maybe it's open by then. You just go crash at Casa Bonita.
    96:14
    Casa Bonita did reopen a few months ago. reopened. What's that? It's been purchased. Yeah, the South Park guys are in the plans for buying it and then reopening it, but it has not reopened yet. Oh, I heard it reopened, but only on a limited basis. They were doing tours and that's it. Nothing else. Oh, okay. They're going to go. Go quick, man. Those celebrity restaurants never last long. Yeah. I would wait because Casa Bonita... It's a staple. Yeah, but it's closed. if Trey Parker and Matt Stone buy it, then it's going to be a different thing. No, they want to keep it the same and make the food better. And that was some of the worst Mexican food I've ever had. Like, it made El Torito and places like that seem legitimate. Except for Pia's. The stuff with Pia's were actually pretty good. The desserts were not very good. And the mariachi bands and the cliff diving. Okay, so you've been there too. Oh yeah. I actually made a point to go there. My wife's was raised in Colorado. And so when I saw it in South Park and then realized it existed, it was like, oh, we're going. Next time we visit your family, we're going to be first off in a Casa Bonita. And we did, and it was glorious. And the arcade was there, and it was every bit of a cafeteria Mexican food place as it could have ever been. Well, it's like a Mexican Chuck E. Cheese, right? Like, that's just what it looks like. It's so much more, though. So, like, we're talking floor, it's got a hike to it. So, I mean, imagine it's got an indoor diving pool. Yeah, it's like a show. It is a little show, and then there's all this, I would say it's more like Disneyland, where they make the entire area around it also feel like you're inside a jungle, like in the Mexican. Did you ever get to go to any of the old Chuck E. Cheese's? No. Spencer can probably back me up a bit. Chuck E. Cheese's used to be badass. Fuck yeah. Like, it wasn't probably as fancy as Casa Bonita, right? Especially being a Bay Area kid. But, like, turkey cheese used to be really intricate. And, you know, it was more than just an arcade with terrible pizza. It had, like, you know, it was a theater. That was the whole idea was it was the Pizza Time Theater, and it had a whole stage show and everything that happened. And it was really dope. So I saw Casa Bonita on South Park, and it was fucking, you know, it was funny as hell, and I heard that it's a real place, and it's super cool. and I would love to go there and I hope that the South Park guys buy it and they make it successful and they keep it open forever so maybe I'll get a chance to but what it comes down to is like yeah man I would love to have an opportunity to go to this Colorado pinball show because I've been to the Washington pinball show and it was fucking cool Casbonita is the Six Flags version of the Blue body part. Yes. That's the best way to put it. Not bad. That's dope. But it's, yeah. The feeling is amazing. Right.
    99:19
    Yeah, so I'm looking forward to Casabonita. I'm looking forward to checking out the Rocky Mountain. It looks like an old spaghetti factory on steroids. There you go. Yeah, I'm looking forward to checking out the Denver show.
    99:31
    I think it was funny they still haven't announced that California Extreme isn't. Ah, yeah. they really wanted to like I said just you know the Delta variant thing really fucked that they were ready like they had the hotel wanted it they wanted it and apparently the guys the largest bringers of games were in well yeah because they're sure they'll help some pay the rent for their storage but yeah you know it just didn't end up happening I'm not going to damn them for that well yeah the Delta variant screw stuff up, and you know, the Southwest variant's coming, then you have the JetBlue variant. Just go through all the airlines. The American Airlines variant. There you go. Well, some interesting news on TWA. The original Pinball Expo is born. That's right now. There's still a go. And they're in a new location because the number one bitch the last few years that I've heard was their other location just They didn't want them there. They were dicks. So, they're in a new location, the Renaissance Schaumburg Convention Center Hotel, 1551 North Thoreau Drive in Schaumburg, Illinois.
    100:47
    And it's October 27th through 30th. This is the original, man. This is, you know, the Pinball Expo. But honestly, with everything I've seen and heard in the last decade about the Pinball Expo, it's at the very bottom of the list for me to want to go to. Denver show. If you're into the industry and the business of pinball, Expo is the one. Because Expo is at its most base, it is the professional pinball show. And, again, it's still where, like, you know, you see the most big announcements. Now, Texas has gotten really, really big for that, you know, but I think that if you're into the pinball industry, I think the expo is probably where you're going to, you know, you're going to meet the most insiders. You're going to hear the most inside information. You probably have the best chance of seeing a big launch. Like I said, I'm sure if CGC has Cactus to show off early, that's where it's going to be. But, you know, especially with no TPF going down. But, you know, I think that in terms of, like, what I would want to do with a pinball show, yeah, I'm not going to expo. Like, it just doesn't sound, you know, seminars and announcements are all great. But, yeah, apparently it doesn't have the biggest and best replay room. It doesn't have the biggest and best showroom for parts and stuff like that. You know, it's about the business of pinball. And to some people, that's what it's about. I know that O.D. wants to go. In fact, I think he's planning to go with his uncle or his cousin or something. He's like, oh, you should go with us. I'm just like, man, I'll go to Pinnagogo, have a real low-key time with some beer, pinball, and King of the Losers. but I'm probably not going to schlep out to Expo to go play pinballs. I got pinball machines at home. There you go. I want to go to the Seattle show. I've heard nothing but good things about that. Great show. I want to go to the Midwest Gaming Classic. I've heard nothing but good things. The York show. There's all these shows all over America and even the world that I like to go to. I think you did. What's that? He efforted himself with his watch. Yeah, his watch is killing him. No, and I agree. It was like, if you haven't been to any of the out-of-state shows, if you've just been to the California shows, they're nice. They have a different vibe. You know, I've been to Tacoma twice, the Northwest Pinball and Arcade show. Had a great time both times. One time I went just kind of solo. One time I went with William. And, yeah, man, you know, just super friendly collectors, super enthusiastic. It's on the top floor of, like, a three- or four-story convention center, which is really weird because you're way above the ground and you're playing pinball, you know, which, you know, compared to our California shows, everything's ground level. So that just had a really weird, a really weird quality to it. But, yeah, man, I can't recommend more. Like, that's why I'm like, hey, man, how far is this, you know, and maybe, you know, because when I went to Northwest, I, like, drove in from Proctor that day, and that was probably three or four hours. So it's like maybe I will, like, you know, figure out my way out to your guys' place and roll to that show for a day and fuck around and roll back to your guys' house and hang out for a day or so and then, you know, fly home. There you go. You know, figure it out. But I'll probably plan to take some time off around PAGG and this year probably be closer to home. Yeah. Yeah, man. Well, that's the thing. You know, I got the Denver show so close now. It's a must do, you know.
    104:26
    We need a streaming link. Yeah. No, you should go, dude, especially, again, if it's four hours from your house. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we actually look at it. I can fly to Denver and meet you there. You can give me a ride home. There you go. No, that's – there you go. No, to your house. Oh, yeah, to my house. Yeah, yeah. No, that would be good.
    104:44
    Yeah, man. I can help you out scolera some games downstairs. There you go. Yeah, I'm excited about getting out of scolera. And I'm excited about the shows, man. It's just nice to have shows back again, you know. Well, let's hope. Yeah, let's hope. that we can keep our masks on and keep getting our shots and we don't fuck it up for ourselves. Right. No, that's... Yeah, I want everybody to keep safe, which gets us about to our shout-outs and thank-yous and I'll let you guys, in any order you want, start with any shout-outs or thank-yous. Or anything else you want to talk about. In fact, before we get to that, Brian, do you have any repair log stuff you want to talk about? That white wire is a piece of shit. Okay. It is broken as hell. Welcome home, Whitewater. Yeah, every time I touch it, something else breaks. That thing never broke for 10 years at your house. You loaned it out, went to work. So we'll blame him. It's been on a world tour. And you did some amazing work on my Whitewater. Oh, I got yours fixed. Yeah. It hasn't broken, so I know it's not my bad luck. My game is just crushed. If you go on to the CCPL page, you will see that Cheddar has begun to swap onto my creature. I saw that. It looks astonishing. I want to throw a shout out to the CCPL coordinators, Steve and Mike, David. Thank you guys for getting League back up and running. I know that everybody is having a great time. It is absolutely good to be back. Thank you to Shannon for hosting Wholesome League last week. Thank you to Henry for hosting Lodi League next week and our standard hosts, which are Mike and Adam, you guys are making it happen. Thanks to everyone who comes in place. You know, I missed it terribly. It is a little weird without Mr. Gone and Rusty there, but at the same time, fuck those guys. They thought Wyoming sounded really, really cool, and now they're there. Yeah, I love it. No pinball league for, like, a year and three months. We pull out of the fucking driveway in the U-Haul. It's like, fuck those assholes. League's back on. You figured it out. That was all we were waiting for. Like you guys didn't like wait a week to announce That shit So no I'm happy for you guys man That's all I ever wanted was just a week to be back You know so And I'm going to be coming out I don't know when I'm sure before Christmas I'm going to have to fly back out For business anyway But we're only doing one season this year So there won't be a winter I don't think there's going to be a winter season You guys are a pain in the ass Well it depends Because we know that you're coming. But as soon as you leave, we're going to start leaving next week. No, but seriously, it's just like, you know, if, you know, if you were still here, you know, it would be perfect. Yeah, man. Thank you. Miss you guys, too. I really do. But I love it here. Oh, I didn't say we missed you. I just need the... Yeah, he did. He was just being candid about it. I just need the easy points. I mean The message I left Right Yeah you see how he's been playing in the league Not great Yeah Do you see the message I left on the league Message board For the first night No I blocked you years ago Yeah For the first night back And I was like Hey everybody Miss you Have a good time Give Flash Gordon Or no Give Flash Gordon the finger For me and say thank you a lot So And Rick did Actually Rick gave Flash Gordon the finger for you Right on Way over there Wow. Way to go, Rick. Adam's Flash Gordon is finicky. You can have just an amazing game on it, and then 20 minutes later, it's like three house falls. You know, that thing is really finicky. Rick waxed it. That shit's unplayable now.
    108:35
    Here's a so much nicer. I'm going to wax mine just to be in the household when you get here. It'll probably still be easier than Adam's.
    108:44
    But, yeah, big thanks to all the league people. Big thanks to you for having the podcast I did always I enjoy it so much Just getting together and yammering about pinball Oh Brian You did have a successful repair I know you got your Funhouse back up and running Oh it's not back together yet I had There's a broken I don't even know what the part's called A little rubber piece at the bottom of the coy, the kick out for his mouth I ordered that I already got it, I just got to stick it in then I got to stick Rudy in but I still got to fix all three of my sound boards the one for Whitewater blew out a capacitor because a small little strand of wire fell from the game somewhere and landed across the cabinet leads the original one for the Funhouse I thought I, well, I fixed it a couple years ago when the amp went out, and the amp, either the amp or the capacitor port blew out again.
    109:54
    And then the spare one that came out of the Haunted Cane is also having problems. It's, my garage games, except for the Whirlwinds, are not being very fun right now. Yeah. I'm allowed to have one working game at the house right now, it seems, so.
    110:08
    Are you getting there? No house! You're getting there. You know, you'll get it, so. Oh, no, it will. Pinball breaks. I understand that. I get it. It's just frustrating on the whitewater.
    110:21
    You know, got the five volts fixed, plugged it in, blew up the soundboard. Okay, fine. Got the switch for the control. The coin door working great. Then the opto pair, that's the entrance for the disaster drop, went out. And to get to that, you've got to take apart the entire goddamn game. everything that's the very bottom ramp on the right and to get to that opto pair I gotta take every ramp and mini playfield out to get to it. And now that you have a rotisserie I gotta get the parts together to do the cleaning. I'm not putting it back. I'm not swapping it in with all that dirty shit. It's gonna get fixed. Take the playfield out. No, I'm doing it right.
    111:06
    We'll do it now. Everything's gonna get cleaned. Stuff's gonna get replaced. I want it so I don't have to worry about it for a while. At least 20 minutes.
    111:16
    If not more. Yeah, 25. Yeah, William Bick good for three plays. Upwards of two games. But thank you for those eyelids, by the way. Oh, bro, you know what, man? Happy to help. I know they're getting harder to find than I happen to see them. And I was like, fucking, I'm buying them. The eyelids, they started reproducing them. They haven't done Rudy's yet. The red one looks fine. I'm not upset about that. You know, the old ones, those are probably the originals. They just finally broke. Yeah. You know, they were, what, 35 years old now, or however old that game is. Yeah, 1990s. It'll last forever. Yeah. Yeah, so, yeah, I mean, yeah, 30, 31, 32, something like that. A piece of plastic, 31, 32 years, getting hammered around inside a box with lights? My, yeah, my funhouse has been fairly reliable and my Rudy's been fairly reliable, but he's also, just like my funhouse, absolutely filthy.
    112:21
    I don't remember when I last shopped that game out, maybe 2005. Wow. It's dirty. It needs some love.
    112:30
    It'll get it eventually. There you go. You got any shout outs and thank yous? I think that's it Not for me, that's Danny Coverdown I appreciate you having me on Oh brother, it's good to have you on It's good to hear your voice, I miss you guys Yeah man, it's You know, my shoutouts I'm kind of like just like I miss you guys, I'm happy you're all doing well And everybody's doing well Shoutout to Andrew and Kendra Who got married today And congratulations to them and wish them well. Everybody is dodging fires, man. I just wish that you stay safe and everybody stay away from the COVID and keep doing what you're doing.
    113:20
    It's just good to be here. I love being here. I want you guys to come visit and share what Wyoming has to offer.
    113:28
    It's pretty cool. I'm digging it here. You know So I'm liking it a lot And you know Still doing the podcast Starting to meet people Making a new friend or two It's going to be good For sure Things will work out Oh yeah And like I said I'm going to be coming back From time to time In fact literally Probably ten minutes Before we set up I was on the phone With my daughter She's doing good My son-in-law Is making guitars So they're doing good Good So You know, other than the fire and the smoke We got the smoke out here too So, you know So it travels Alright guys, well we're going to wrap up Episode 40 And thanks for coming on and hanging tonight The big 4-0 40 all at the same time So, alright guys Well this has been from the No longer the Kitchen Table Studios But from, well Jeff's Upstairs Studio in you're in Fair Oaks, right Jeff? In OV, Orangeville.
    114:38
    Beautiful sunny Orangeville, California and me at the Dungeon Studios in Casper, Wyoming. This has been episode 40. So you guys know the words. Play pinball. Keep America strong. And that's it man. And we're out. We'll play the exit music and see if it actually recorded. Damn that's loud.
    115:13
    And Alex loves pizza.