Episode 646: "Non-Refundable Pre-Orders Need to STOP!"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·20m 13s·held·Feb 4, 2022

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.027

TL;DR

Kaneda launches campaign to end non-refundable pinball pre-orders, demanding manufacturer accountability.

Summary

Kaneda issues a passionate manifesto against non-refundable pre-orders in pinball, targeting Spooky Pinball, Haggis Pinball, and other manufacturers. He argues the practice removes consumer power, prevents accountability for missed deadlines and quality issues, and compares it to failed manufacturers like Andrew Highway. He calls for the community to boycott non-refundable orders until companies change their business model.

Key Claims

Spooky Pinball went to non-refundable deposits because customers were customizing orders and requesting refunds, leaving Spooky with unsellable specialized machines like a powder-coated Rob Zombie game
medium confidence · Kaneda cites Chuck (Spooky founder) as the source of this justification
Haggis Pinball has missed every deadline and is nine months delayed on a game supposed to be in production in July, while maintaining non-refundable deposits
medium confidence · Kaneda citing Damien's quote about being 'heads down' and manufacturing self-sufficiency
Spooky Pinball did not show gameplay, animations, or shot geometry for Ultraman and Halloween before locking in pre-order money
medium confidence · Kaneda's direct observation and criticism
There is a current inventory shortage of desirable new games, causing collectors to hold onto existing machines and drive secondary market prices to inflated levels ($17,500+ for Stranger Things (Premium/LE))
medium confidence · Kaneda's analysis of current market dynamics
Jersey Jack Pinball will implement non-refundable deposits on future games without first resolving their playfield durability issues
low confidence · Kaneda's prediction/expectation based on past behavior
Andrew Highway (Heighway Pinball) was able to maintain the business longer because he offered refundable deposits, unlike modern manufacturers
low confidence · Kaneda's retrospective comparison and speculation
Some Spooky games are 'catching on fire' and experiencing quality/reliability issues
low confidence · Kaneda's reference to isolated incidents; unclear which games or severity
Spooky Pinball has had talented designers and animators leave the company
low confidence · Kaneda's indirect reference: 'talented people at your company walk'
No other consumer product is sold non-refundable before the customer sees it

Notable Quotes

“It is removing all of us as customers. It's removing any power we have to keep them accountable to deadlines, to a schedule.”
Kaneda @ early in episode — Core thesis of the episode — non-refundable deposits eliminate customer leverage
“They're going to be efficient with both time and money... nine months delayed. So where are those efficiencies?”
Kaneda (quoting/paraphrasing Damien from Haggis Pinball) @ mid-episode — Direct contradiction between Haggis's promises and performance
“I think nonrefundable deposits now with Spooky means that they're not being held accountable for making a great game.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Articulates the danger of non-refundable model: eliminates incentive for quality before money is locked
“You gave money for Ultraman and Halloween. They did not show you gameplay. They did not show you animations. They did not show you anything.”
Kaneda @ mid-episode — Specific example of Spooky's practice of locking money before revealing game content
“If you make a great game... you're not going to go hire talented designers and talented coders and talented animators until they learn a lesson with these two games.”
Kaneda @ late in episode — Kaneda's prescription: poor game reception must result in consequences to force hiring of quality talent
“Remove the personalization from the games. If you do that, then every game has to be great.”
Kaneda @ late in episode — Proposes solution to Spooky's refund problem: standardize Collector's Edition like Stern does
“We have the power. It's all in our court. If we just close our wallets and say I'm not ordering this game, if it's nonrefundable, they're going to have to change their ways.”
Kaneda @ end of episode — Call to action: community boycott of non-refundable pre-orders
“I think people are done with this whole like small boutique company... some people's games now are catching on fire.”

Entities

KanedapersonSpooky PinballcompanyHaggis Pinballcompany Jersey Jack PinballcompanyStern Pinballcompany[name withheld pending review]personChuckperson

Signals

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community_signal: Kaneda launching high-profile podcast campaign to mobilize community against non-refundable pre-orders; positioning himself as consumer advocate
high · Opening statement: 'my mission now is to end once and for all the practice of nonrefundable preorder dollars in pinball' and multiple calls to community action throughout episode
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product_concern: Spooky Pinball experiencing quality issues including games 'catching on fire' and poor animation work on Halloween; talent departures cited
medium · Kaneda: 'some people's games now are catching on fire' and 'you're going to go hire an animator for Halloween whose stuff has no business being on a pinball machine'
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business_signal: Non-refundable deposit model as competitive differentiation; manufacturers adopting it to protect against customization/refund losses; systemic practice across boutique makers
high · Chuck's explanation for Spooky's policy; Haggis also using model; Kaneda implies JJP will follow
$
market_signal: Inflated secondary market pricing ($17,500+ for Stranger Things LE) driven by new game supply shortage and influx of new collectors; primary market inventory constrained
high · Kaneda: 'There are not enough new games coming out that people want... Good luck selling that game one day' and commentary on Stranger Things pricing
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operational_signal: Haggis Pinball experiencing chronic 9+ month delays on game promised for July delivery; missed January deadline; minimal public communication from manufacturer

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.061

0:00

Just like fire, burning up the way,fucking like the world up for just one day,watch this madness,couple charade,no one can be just like me anyway. Oh, back to back days of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. Chris Ward is going to think this is the new norm. I just got to give him his $5 worth. Everybody, I am on a new mission. And this is going to be my mission all year going into the pinball world because this needs to change. And you know what it is. If you haven't seen my Facebook, my mission now is to end once and for all the practice of nonrefundable preorder dollars in pinball. It needs to stop and I'm tired of it because what it's doing to this hobby is total bogus. It is removing all of us as customers. It's removing any power we vicinity Pinn Forlaps Pinn plan no and uh... tan pan Rod then we've got Spooky Pinball, nonrefundable and the reason Chuck gave for nonrefundable deposits, remember back in the day he's like well people were changing their orders and then they were customizing their games and then they wanted a refund and we were stuck with this version of Rob Zombie that had like powder coated this and then we had to find a new customer. That's the whole reason why Spooky went to nonrefundable. Okay, we're going to talk more about that. Then we've got Haggis Pinball, nonrefundable deposit on a game that was supposed to be in production last July. And I'm going to read you a quote from Damien. You know, let's just start with it right now. Because this is why it is so bogus that we are handing these pinball companies money, and then once they have our money, we have absolutely no power to keep them accountable to deadlines, to a schedule, www.knappclaw.com

2:46

www.spookypinball.com I'm a pinball manufacturer. I have easy access to other pinball manufacturing suppliers, so I needed to become self-sufficient as much as possible. With a reduced reliance on external suppliers, I can make decisions and affect manufacturing outcomes very quickly to implement efficiencies in both time and money. Let me repeat that. They're going to be efficient with both time and money. People, nine months delayed. So where are those efficiencies? We have not seen any of those efficiencies at all. And remember, this is the part that kills me. There was a moment when Damian knew that those games were not going to be on the line in July and he took your money. Why? Let's just ask these questions. Why did Damian take your money nonrefundable? Why does Spooky Pinball need your money nonrefundable? I mean, go watch the documentary on Spooky, right? How much rent are they paying? They've been given so much, so much by Benton I'm David Van Es. I'm a professional pinball instructor at Sp bipartin Wisconsin, so much by the pinball community. Aren't we at the point now where they don't need nonrefundable dollars to survive? It's not like they have a hard time finding customers. They can sell games out in one day but why are they nonrefundable deposits? Why did Damien say they're nonrefundable? You're telling me none of that money for Fathom, none of that money went to building these kelts machines over the last eight months? See, we don't know but you have absolutely no protection. See, I go back to an Andrew Highway scenario. Can you imagine if AndrewHighways games were nonrefundable? The reason why Highway Pinball went under is because they were refundable deposits Now it took people forever to get their money back from Andrew but he did not have a nonrefundable policy And as much of a crook as he was the reason why he didn is he knew back then the climate was different If he told people if you give me your money you can get it back people probably wouldn have given them their money So the question now becomes, why are we trusting everybody to figure it out? Now look, I think Spooky Pinball will absolutely deliver the games. The issue I have with Spooky Pinball's nonrefundable deposit is not whether or not you're going to get your game. Here's my big issue with Spooky Pinball. I think nonrefundable deposits now with Spooky means that they're not being held accountable for making a great game. That they're not going to show us the quality of the game before they lock our money in. There's an extreme danger in that and we're seeing it right now. Let's look at right now what's happening. You gave money for Ultraman and Halloween. They did not show you gameplay. They did not show you animations. They did not show you anything. And now that a lot of people have seen what those games are and seen like the shot geometry and the in-lane feeders and the animations in Halloween which have no business being on a pinball machine that costs this much money. Now that people are seeing The Out Pinball Podcast is brought to you by Spooky Pinball.

9:18

Alyson bai Abis prาน Ajion do Ho I just baked rk Walk UR OO I'm not doing this crap anymore. We're not doing this. I not giving you and then you go hire an animator for Halloween whose stuff has no business being on a pinball machine I not doing it If you gonna get lazy and you gonna let the talented people at your company walk and you're not gonna show me gameplay and you're not gonna let me know if the game's any good and then you're gonna hold my money without giving me any chance to get it back, you did not live up to your end of the bargain. You have taken your company backwards, Spooky, and now you want people to lock their money in. I bet it feels great putting all that money in your checking account, but it's not fair. OUR NEXT NAME DO NOT GET KISSED 6 3 Can you name me one other product, and I mean this, one other product, where your order is nonrefundable before even seeing what the thing is? www.kiw gosh.gmail.com I'm not going to be held accountable because they don't have to be held accountable. I am shocked. I am shocked how little uproar there is over at Haggis Pinball by the community, by the buyers. What the hell? Like you can go nine months and miss every deadline and he just missed January, right? He just missed January. And I know Damien's a good guy, but what has he done? Has he come out and officially said anything? He said nothing. In email correspondence with people, he's telling you, oh, we're heads down. How To with Luca ≪I love TV prescribed pricing non-scripts of our top 10 shows. 캐� heiße≫ ≪ rapport with this hashtag would be the way ≪V aplic chills≫ ≪ Europe—SK FILMSkommen ≫ No, go hire talented designers. We need to stop this and we can stop it like spooky pinball is not going to go hire talented designers and talented coders and talented animators until they learn a lesson with these two games. And that is that they're not good enough. And I know there's just those cheerleaders on pin side that just say, well, we should be supporting pinball companies and this is how you do it. No, it's not. These companies all know one simple truth. If you make a great game and you from You're in O'Connor in trouble트 When you have playfield anecdote falling apart Democr soccer аб gard, and you don't fix the problem І'e in trouble JF Ife goshüzüçğürülçüçüç소ran gözleme Jrıcz Ice ve Hı çıktıızıçıçıç dirig גם wyüç с�르 moygoing tan ifiğzıç aziz Hart הפצwach precautions, anti surgery その4 in my country, prorect and par再生 Just one of the biggest If these companies need to raise money then go to investors go to the bank go somewhere else but don come to us as customers and have us invest in your mediocrity or your missed deadlines or your poor quality We not doing it anymore And I hope all of you get on board And this is something that we need to shift We need to change this This is just unbelievable to me that you could take someone money and then go 10 months and then stop giving them updates And we're seeing it in 2022. I mean, this is like Kevin Kulik, Andrew Highway behavior all over again. And it doesn't matter how nice you are. And it doesn't matter if they respond to personal emails. No, a company that gives you a deadline. I mean, when a company is saying that they can make decisions and affect manufacturing outcomes very quickly to implement efficiencies in both time and money. Damian, where are you implementing efficiencies that are impacting both time and money? You're losing money and you're inefficient. You're headed in the wrong direction. Jersey Jack Pinball, are you going to do nonrefundable deposits on the next game before we see if you fix the playfields? They are absolutely going to do it. And then we're all gonna have to go in and not have any protection if the playfield start falling apart again. And spooky pinball forget it. I mean I think people are done. I really do. I think people are done with this whole like small ludu boutique company. I mean some people's games now are catching on fire. Go look at it. Go look at it. And I'm not saying that all spooky games are gonna have these issues. It's just a few isolated incidents. But it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if it's a fire or a bad right flipper coil. It doesn't matter. You should be able, after you see the game and after you hear feedback, if you don't want it, you should be able to get your money back. The excuse, think about Chuck's like reason. We can't give refunds because people are personalizing their orders. Alright Chuck, how about you do this? Do what Stern does, Chuck. Remove the personalization from the games. If you do that, then every game has to be great. Make your collector's edition just one way to order it. That way, you know, throw the butter in, throw everything into it. That way you can't have this excuse that I can't give you a refund because then I can't find a buyer that wants his game arranged this way. It's such an excuse. It's not going to work anymore. I think everyone's seeing through it and I think it's the one thing, it's the one thing hanging over this hobby. Am I right or am I wrong? I know I'm probably clipping all over this podcast. I usually don't scream like this into the mic. It's early in the morning, sleep deprived Kaneda, just trying to do a Kaneda's Pinball Podcast for you two days in a row, trying to give Chris Ward his money's worth. The pinball world is crazy these days. It's crazy these days. I'm seeing the prices. They're absolutely bonkers. It's going to come back down to reality. It absolutely is. It's fun to watch it. It's fun to watch all you guys buying like Stranger Things LEs for like $17.5. Good luck selling that game one day. See, what's happening right now is this. There are not enough new games coming out that people want. There's no inventory. So nobody's moving games out of their collections to make room for the new hotness, right? And let's face it, like nobody's really like shifting games out to put Halloween or Ultraman in. Nobody's doing that for Legends of Valhalla. You've got this period where there's like not a lot of new stuff everybody wants, so they're holding onto their games and then you've got a lot of new people in the hobby. Now the new people in the hobby when they want something, they're screwed because there's no b-endo ab pergi tolerans ab plane F