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Episode 110 - COVID-19 & A Dash of Silverball

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 4m·held·Mar 8, 2020
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.042

TL;DR

COVID-19 threatens TPF; JJP relocates to Chicago; Spooky/CGC team up on mystery licensed title.

Summary

Eclectic Gamers discusses COVID-19's impact on the pinball calendar (Texas Pinball Festival status uncertain), tournament results (Colin Urban wins NAPC, Sunshine Vaughn wins Women's World Championship), a rumored Spooky Pinball/Chicago Gaming collaborative game by Ben Heck that requires a major license, and Jersey Jack Pinball relocation from New Jersey to Chicago (Elk Grove, near Stern's manufacturing).

Key Claims

  • Texas Pinball Festival's status is uncertain due to COVID-19 pandemic and event cancellations across the industry

    high confidence · Dennis (public health worker) discusses rising coronavirus cases, canceled events (South by Southwest, Emerald City Comic Con, EA/Apex Legends events), and notes League of Legends Championship Series Finals in Frisco (5 minutes from TPF) has added restrictions. No official TPF cancellation statement yet, only word-of-mouth.

  • Spooky Pinball and Chicago Gaming Company are teaming up on a licensed pinball machine designed by Ben Heck

    high confidence · Tony mentions this was discussed on Spooky's own podcast. The collaboration is because the license is 'too big for Spooky to build' alone, implying a major IP requiring production capacity beyond Spooky's ~750-game run capability.

  • The Spooky/Chicago Gaming collaborative game involves a license so popular it would exceed Spooky's typical production run

    medium confidence · Tony speculates the license is larger than Spooky can handle; Dennis wonders if it's a major IP like Jaws, Bond, or horror-themed (Ring, Poltergeist, Gremlins, Scooby-Doo). No confirmation of specific IP.

  • Jersey Jack Pinball is closing its New Jersey manufacturing facility and relocating to Elk Grove, Chicago (where Stern manufactures)

    high confidence · Official announcement from Jack Guarneri (JJP CEO). Move is to Elk Grove, shared location with Stern Manufacturing. JJP is claiming no timeline delays.

  • Jersey Jack Pinball has hired employees from American Pinball as part of the Chicago move

    medium confidence · Tony mentions hearing JJP 'has picked up employees, I think from American pinball.' Speaker is uncertain on which specific employee(s).

  • Christopher Franchi, artist, is now working with Chicago Gaming Company (likely on an original licensed game, not a remake)

    high confidence · Tony states Franchi did part of the Medieval Madness remake topper, but 'everyone is expecting that he's working on an original license an original game for CG.' Franchi's previous role was with Spooky Pinball.

  • Guns N' Roses is rumored to be Jersey Jack's next announcement, possibly at Texas Pinball Festival or within a month of TPF

Notable Quotes

  • “I'm really curious about whether or not Texas Pinball Festival is actually going to happen. More and more stuff is being canceled.”

    Dennis @ ~12:30 — Reflects growing uncertainty about major pinball events amid COVID-19 pandemic in early March 2020.

  • “My advice would be a statement of some sort should be made so that we have some sense about what's going to happen... Basically no matter what, as long as we know by Wednesday of that week I can cancel the hotel.”

    Dennis @ ~13:45 — Practical concern about TPF decision-making timeline for attendees making travel commitments.

  • “Spooky's busy building Rick and Morty's anyway, but they think it's a license that's so popular it would be beyond their run size.”

    Tony @ ~35:10 — Explains why Spooky needed Chicago Gaming's capacity for the mysterious collaborative game.

  • “What license is so big that Spooky would secure, that Ben Heck would want to work on, and Chicago Gaming would want to build and sell?”

    Dennis @ ~35:20 — Articulates the mystery surrounding the Spooky/CGC collaboration announcement; no IP confirmed.

  • “I don't understand this Jaws fascination for a pinball machine. Because the shark can eat the ball. Oh, good. Yay. We've never seen that before.”

    Tony @ ~36:45 — Skepticism about Jaws as the mystery license; criticism of repetitive ball-eating gimmick in pinball design.

  • “The thought was that the design Ben Heck originally did for Spooky that has not been made was supposed to be Evil Dead... my general read was they could not get the star to sign on without paying way more than they felt they could sell the game to warrant the cost.”

    Tony @ ~38:30 — Explains why Evil Dead (previously rumored Ben Heck/Spooky collaboration) was never built—licensing costs for Ash Williams actor too prohibitive.

  • “Jersey Jack Pinball... They're moving... their manufacturing facility in New Jersey is being closed, and they are moving to Chicago. In fact, they are moving to Elk Grove, which is where Stearns Manufacturing is.”

Entities

Texas Pinball FestivaleventColin UrbanpersonSunshine VaughnpersonBen HeckpersonSpooky PinballcompanyChicago Gaming Companycompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Mystery licensed IP for Spooky/CGC collaboration is either major pop culture franchise (Jaws, Bond) or horror-themed property (Ring, Poltergeist, Gremlins, Scooby-Doo); hosts unable to narrow down due to lack of confirmation.

    low · Tony/Dennis speculation: 'What license is so big? ...the usual suspect stuff is things like, it's Jaws... It could be a Bond... If Spooky secured the license, which is what it sounds like, does that mean this is a spooky license? You know, Scooby-Doo? A horror of some sort? The Ring? Poltergeist? Gremlins. Gremlins would be a good one.'

  • ?

    event_signal: 403 Club pinball venue losing 2 machines (from 13 to 11) after operator David Luttrell's relocation to North Carolina; lineup composition expected to shift toward fewer recent releases.

    high · Tony: 'David Luttrell, is moving to... North Carolina... It'll be interesting because David bought a lot of the really new stuff... we're now going to be two pins shorter than we used to be... one 11-pin lineup. Right. And then expanded to 12, and then expanded to 13.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Medieval Madness Merlin magic shot mechanic criticized for inconsistent behavior (ball bounces out front or overshoots saucer); affects competitive play strategy.

    high · Tony: 'Medieval Madness just decided to Shove a knife in my kidney... It just would not [hit the saucer]. I bounced off the front of it three times, and then I had a clean shot that was too clean. It went in so fast it went over the saucer.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival status remains officially unconfirmed despite rising COVID-19 event cancellations across industry (South by Southwest, Emerald City Comic Con, Mortal Kombat finals, League of Legends restrictions).

    high · Dennis: 'More and more stuff is being canceled... I'm hoping not [daily briefings become multiple daily]. I'm also really curious about whether or not Texas Pinball Festival is actually going to happen... No official TPF statement.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.194

0:00
This episode of the Eclectic Gamers podcast is brought to you by the Roanoke Pinball Museum in Roanoke, Virginia. The Roanoke Pinball Museum is an interactive museum dedicated to the science and history of pinball. Their mission is to cultivate curiosity in science, art, and history through pinball while preserving and honoring its role in American culture. The museum is open every day except Monday and houses over 65 machines with models ranging from 1932 to 2018. Sadly, no Ceylon models have survived. Rono can long as him, by your command.
0:49
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, March 8th. This is episode 110. I am Tony. I'm Dennis. It's Daylight Savings Time. It is. That means it is now 11 in the morning. And a little while ago it would have been 10 in the morning. That's right. And it feels like 10 to me. It does feel like 10. To my bones. To your bones. So, hey, what it means is I got to sleep in today. Oh, did you? Yeah. Oh, that's true. Yeah. That's nice. I woke up at 4 and then I realized, no, hey, it's actually 5, so I got to sleep in. Oh. See? Everything's coming up Tony. Oh, yeah.
1:25
Yeah. So introductions We do have a chunk of stuff to talk about this time Which is exciting But we of course have had two weeks Do you want to open with How you did at the 403 Club? Because you lasted A long time It felt like a long time In the winner's bracket even Yeah, I trash panned it I actually lasted pretty good And then Medieval Madness just decided to Shove a knife in my kidney and snap it off Which you had had a comeback on on a prior round. On a prior round, yeah. And I was doing really good on that round. And I had everything set up. It's just all of a sudden I couldn't hit the saucer. It just would not. I bounced off the front of it three times, and then I had a clean shot that was too clean. It went in so fast it went over the saucer. Yeah, the Merlin magic shot doesn't always – Yeah. It's part of the reason why Medieval Madness is inferior to Attack from Mars, in my view. Because I think the Merlin magic shot isn't very good.

medium confidence · Dennis notes the rumor mill has locked in GNR as next, not Toy Story, despite Toy Story IP being relevant in summer 2019. Speculation that different designers (Lawlor, Minier) are spacing out releases.

  • Toy Story pinball is in the JJP pipeline after Guns N' Roses, with Eric Minier as designer

    medium confidence · Dennis states: 'Toy Story was coming out in the summer of 2019. Wouldn't that be logical to be your next game?' Suggests Toy Story is after GNR with Minier designing.

  • David Luttrell, operator at 403 Club, is relocating to North Carolina and ceasing pinball operations

    high confidence · Tony notes Luttrell was primary operator of 7 machines at 403 Club. After his departure, Nick Greenup (who had 4 machines) will operate 9, and 2 games will be managed by Artie (bar owner). Lineup reducing from 13 to 11 machines.

    • Tony @ ~42:00 — Major operational move consolidating JJP design (already in Chicago) with manufacturing for first time; proximity to Stern raises merger speculation.

  • “It's according to Jack Guarneri, who is the CEO of Jersey Jack Pinball, the move is not expected to, like, it should not delay anything.”

    Tony @ ~42:30 — Official JJP claim that relocation will not impact game timelines; relevant to speculation about GNR announcement timing.

  • “Guns N' Roses is probably going to be announced at either TPF or within a month of TPF.”

    Dennis @ ~43:45 — Summarizes rumor mill expectation for next JJP announcement; tied to Texas Pinball Festival timing uncertainty.

  • “Christopher Franchi is an artist with them [Chicago Gaming]... everyone is expecting that he's working on an original license an original game for CG.”

    Tony @ ~41:30 — Signals personnel movement from Spooky to Chicago Gaming; expected to yield new original (non-remake) licensed title.

    • Christopher Franchi
    person
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Jack Guarneriperson
    Pat Lawlorperson
    Eric Minierperson
    Dennisperson
    Tonyperson
    David Luttrellperson
    Nick Greenupperson
    Artieperson
    Lucas Pepkeperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Rick and Mortygame
    Medieval Madnessgame
    Walking Deadgame
    America's Most Hauntedgame
    Wonkagame
    403 Clubevent
  • $

    market_signal: JJP's move to Stern's manufacturing facility (Elk Grove, Chicago) raises speculation about potential merger or shared production arrangement; industry watching for clarification.

    medium · Tony: 'Jersey Jack Pinball... are moving to Elk Grove, which is where Stearns Manufacturing is. Merger.' [implied speculation]. 'I'm not entirely clear if the design and manufacturing are all going to be housed in one building.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball hired employee(s) from American Pinball as part of Chicago relocation move.

    medium · Tony: 'I have also heard already that JJP has picked up employees, I think from American pinball over now in Chicago for them instead. I don't remember which employee or employees.'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Christopher Franchi (artist) transitioned from Spooky Pinball to Chicago Gaming Company; expected to work on original licensed game (not remake).

    high · Tony: 'Christopher Franchi is an artist with them [CGC]... everyone is expecting that he's working on an original license an original game for CG.'

  • ?

    announcement: Jersey Jack Pinball officially closing New Jersey manufacturing facility and relocating to Elk Grove, Chicago (Stern's location); no timeline delays claimed by CEO Jack Guarneri.

    high · Tony: 'Jersey Jack Pinball... their manufacturing facility in New Jersey is being closed, and they are moving to Chicago. In fact, they are moving to Elk Grove, which is where Stearns Manufacturing is... according to Jack Guarneri, CEO of JJP, the move is not expected to delay anything.'

  • ?

    announcement: Spooky Pinball and Chicago Gaming Company confirmed as collaborating on a licensed pinball machine designed by Ben Heck; license is reported to be too large for Spooky's production capacity.

    high · Tony: 'Spooky Pinball and Chicago Gaming Company have teamed up to jointly do a pinball machine that's designed by Ben Heck... the license, it's a licensed pin, but the license was too big for Spooky to build.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Toy Story pinball follows Guns N' Roses in JJP pipeline; designed by Pat Lawlor.

    medium · Dennis: 'Toy Story is [after Guns N' Roses]. Part of that could be, supposedly, Toy Story is Lawler, Guns N' Roses is Eric Minier, and Wonka was Lawler. so space them out.'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Guns N' Roses pinball machine is primary rumor for next Jersey Jack announcement, expected at Texas Pinball Festival or within a month of TPF; designed by Eric Minier.

    medium · Dennis: 'Guns N' Roses... that's probably going to be announced at either TPF or within a month of TPF... from the rumor mill I was hearing from, locked in that GNR was next, not Toy Story.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Evil Dead pinball (Ben Heck/Spooky design) was not built due to prohibitive licensing cost for actor (Bruce Campbell/Ash Williams character) approval and compensation.

    high · Tony: 'The thought was that the design Ben Heck originally did for Spooky that has not been made was supposed to be Evil Dead... my general read was they could not get the star to sign on without paying way more than they felt they could sell the game to warrant the cost.'

    • 2:32
    Because I have overhid it where it basically flies back out to come out the right orbit instead of settling like it's supposed to. Right. That's exactly what happened. It's got that stupid little gate.
    2:43
    Okay, so that's what it was. That's what finally got me out after I'd already gone to Luscious. Because you were ready to go into your multiball, I'm assuming. I had Trolls, Peasant, and Joust. Okay, so you were ready for a triple madness multiball to crush your opposition. Yeah. And then it all fell. Well, no one knew. And that's the important thing. But I played really well. I was very happy with how I played. You did. Throughout the night. You got lots of points. I got lots of points. Because there were a lot of people there. I thought it was going to be kind of light because we had Steve Hill was over for the World Championship.
    3:23
    Max was out for Pin Masters. Kerry Wing was out for the Women's World Championship. So we had some high-level players that were out in wherever they do that. Colorado, I guess, this year. And so I thought, okay, well, it's trophy time. I mean, not for me. I went to and out. I won one game out of five. You got to feel my pain. I won that game by a lot. You have to feel my pain, because normally I go to and out, and I'm the one who's sitting around talking with people and playing random pickup games while you finish out your playthrough. Yeah, I'm trying to think. I didn't really. I mean, I guess some of the games were kind of low, low scoring. It didn't feel like it went as bad as I guess it did, but it didn't go that well. February went pretty well for me, but clearly I've started March like a lamb, not in like a lion. It's pinball. It is. That's pinball, baby. Wah, wah, wah, wah. Wah, wah. So what else has been happening, though? Well, I'm troubleshooting some problems with my desktop. Too many monitors is probably the problem.
    4:25
    I'm pretty sure. I went through and I reseated everything, but I'm thinking my power supply is starting to go, which isn't a surprise because it is the whole computer. The computer as a whole is more than a decade old at this point. So Yeah I think I'm just going to have to get a new power supply It is Booting up sometimes but not Every time And I can always tell when it's going to boot or when it's not going to boot Because my whole system runs through UPS and on the front Of the UPS it's got a display And that display includes the current power draw And on the time that The boot up is going to work The power draw jumps up To where I would expect it to be Otherwise, the power draw jumps up to about 80 and stops. Okay. Well, I guess you can just order one of those. Yeah. That's the next thing on the list. I've been trying. I went and unhooked and reseated everything and was testing to see if maybe I had some bad RAM or if I had. That's the whole thing that failed on my last computer. Mine, I hadn't been keeping up with any of it, so I just went ahead and replaced it at that point. I remember because that was the day we had a pinnapalooza, and I went and bought the computer and got home before it was time to leave. and we leave pretty early for that we do but Micro Center was open and I was like I need to get this done so that I can do the next day I can do all the installing and that's been good since right and then I've got the laptop so I've got a backup that does quit out on me and I've been kicking together an idea of building a new machine but I might just purchase another one but then on top of those troubles brakes went out on my car Oh yeah So And then went and I turned on The Playstation this morning Because I was like hey I'm going to download The Final Fantasy 7 demo The remaster remake demo And give it a play before we come record this Yeah No internet connection Oh no Why do I have no internet connection The puppy chewed the network cord For the PS4 in half Oh no So I was able to So I just flipped over The wireless mode Right And downloaded it And Then it was time to leave By the time it got done Downloading and installing And everything I'm like I gotta go Well you can try it later I'll try it later That's the spirit So how's the puppy doing? Good She's growing Probably They grow fast When they eat cat sex cables Yeah I'm sure it's great Yeah She's growing quickly. Dogs do like to chase cats. She is, yeah.
    7:13
    Potty training's going about as well as can be expected. Yeah, I don't... The last two dogs I've had I got as already adults, so I didn't have to train them. I have never had a puppy personally. My wife has had puppies and trained them. My daughter has had a puppy and trained it. I haven't paid that much attention. I was always like, the dog made a mess. Clean it up. I don't get to do that now. No, yes. Yes, no.
    7:46
    But it's going well. Good. How have things been going with you? Oh, fine. Busy, though. The coronavirus, the COVID-19 stuff. Because I work with public health.
    7:58
    It's just been, it's consuming more and more of my time. More than I thought it would. because while I have a contract related to emergency preparedness, I didn't expect that that meant a lot outside of usually it's like coordinating, making sure reports are submitted on time, helping if there are delays, things like that, and pushing out information regarding our annual planning. But with this, the state is at this point up to doing daily, at least during the weekdays, daily briefings. Now that we saw yesterday, we have a confirmation of a coronavirus case in this county, which is the most populated county in Kansas, I won't be surprised if they accelerate next week. I don't know if they'll move beyond daily to more than once-a-day briefings. I'm hoping not. I'm also really curious about whether or not Texas Pinball Festival is actually going to happen. I know. And we've been talking about this for like three or four episodes now because of – Right, more and more stuff is being canceled. And most of that stuff was things with heavy international Asian travel because game development is done in the East and the West. So it wasn't too surprising, but it's getting worse. Like South by Southwest is canceled. Emerald City Comic Con is canceled. EA and several people in this. Today's, well, we'll just jump a little bit. Today's video game segment is covering, because that's canceled. The Mortal Kombat tournament this weekend, The finals of their huge tournament they've been running all year is closed to fans, and they canceled the last chance tournament. They're only allowing the top 16 seeded people who are already there to play with just staff present. Okay. I mean, that happened. EA has canceled like six events for Apex Legends and FIFA.
    9:51
    And talking about TPF, League of Legends is ending their this year's, Championship Series Finals, which is the North American Championship Series, is in Frisco, Texas, less than five minutes from where TPF is, and they've already put major restrictions on what is going to happen. They've canceled a lot of events that were tied in with it, and they're saying there'll be more information coming.
    10:23
    Now, I've not read up on if any official stuff, like on Pinside's been coming, out about TPF or anything. I haven't heard anything official. I heard the latest super awesome pinball show, which Ed Van Der Veen, who is one of the show organizers of TPF, he's a host on that show. I haven't heard anything there about any intention to cancel, but it's a high volume event. I know from a presenter standpoint and the guest travel standpoint, it's mostly the international travel is not from hotspot areas. It's mostly Canada and Australia, but But nonetheless, with that many locals converging on things that you're all touching, it makes me wonder. Yeah. I guess my advice would be a statement of some sort should be made so that we have some sense about what's going to happen. And we'll be all right no matter – Basically no matter what. As long as we know by Wednesday of that week I can cancel the hotel. Yeah. And that's the only other thing I'd possibly be out is the registration. But it's like, okay, well, my intent would still be to go if the event's going to happen and just bring my hand sanitizer.
    11:39
    I was just going to wrap my hands in Lysol wipes. Well, I've got some fancy pants sanitizer stuff that's supposed to last for several hours after you put it on your hands. But that's probably more antibacterial versus antiviral. But I also have the alcohol-based stuff, just a little bit of it. I haven't gone out and bought more. Not that you probably could because people are hoarding it now. Yeah. All I have is the stuff that I just always keep around. I just keep some for pinball tournaments because I don't like to eat after touching the buttons. I mean, it's just too many people are touching them. And it's easier than having to go into the restroom every time and wash my hands. Right. So there's that. Obviously, it's been consuming a lot of my work time.
    12:24
    I did have an article, a pinball article released. over with Pinball News this time. It analyzes the 2019 North American Championship Series, or what we often call SCS because of the state championship series. But it does happen with provinces and the District of Columbia as well. So NACS is the more accurate term.
    12:43
    And so it looked at the game selection, gave some statistics on some of the games. And also I reached out and asked about the ban lists, if any, or what modifications tournament directors make to games in order to keep them competitively balanced for what's seen as a fairly high-level set of tournaments. So the one thing I did, I should have put it in the article, and I forgot to, really, when I was working on it and doing my various analyses. I was going to do a breakdown by, like, a range of years, and that was the only other graph I was going to add. I just thought it would be interesting. Over on Tilt Forums, where there was a discussion about games used for NACS, there were people that wanted to know about like manufacturer breakdown by like early solid state or by like 70s 80s right and i never intended to put that in the article because i think it makes it a research report and it's too complicated for most people but if you want to know that information i did have it gathered so i just put the graphs up there so people want to go and say oh well there were 20 some games from 2000 to 2010 and what manufacturers were those oh yeah they're all stirred because it's the only one that was left You can see that graph.
    13:54
    Graphs all the way back to the 60s, because no one used games earlier than the 60s. And, in fact, only three 60s games were used. So, 60s through modern era. So, anyway, I have a link in the show notes, though, to the article. You've got to do some work if you want to look at that. You need to be dedicated if you really care about those graphs. But you can just read the article. It's less than 2,000 words. It's not too hard to get through. So I have that. But I started a new podcast this last week called Geek Fight Podcast. Lucas Pepke, who has written into us before, that is a show he co-hosts. Yeah. And they've done the first episode now. They had like an episode zero intro episode. But the idea is they're going to take two geek things, talk about them, and argue which one of the two is better. So it's not always going to be a game, but for episode one, it was Super Mario Bros. 3 versus Super Mario Bros. World. Ooh. Yeah, it's a pretty good topic. Yeah. So I have a link in the show notes to which would you pick, I guess. But I have a link in the show notes for anyone who wants to listen to the podcast. It goes to the website where they've got it. I don't know if it's showing up in the RSS searches yet. I've added the RSS manually to my podcatcher, so I would be able to get that episode. And I think they have a Facebook page now that launched yesterday called Geek Ward.
    15:18
    And I'm sure their website will direct you to that. But I was wondering, without you having heard any of the arguments, I've watched, I've played both games. I've watched both games because they're pretty much staples of games done quick. Right. Because people love the speedrun Mario games of all flavors. So, I mean. Probably three. See, that was where I went as well. They're both very good. I think I have more time on 3, and for me 3 is more of a touchstone. Yeah, and I wondered if my picking of 3 was due to that. For me, 3 was right at the end of the NES, and it pushes the system so hard. Right. And it added so much compared to Mario. and Mario 2 is really another game that got re Even compared to that you had all those costumes and all that There was so much to it Mario World I think in a lot of ways because it was early in the SNES it looks better because it's a 16-bit game. But beyond just having all that additional tech to lean on, what did it really revolutionize? It improved things. I just don't think it was the same leap. It added Yoshi.
    16:39
    Well, yes, it did. It was important. To me, it's like, you're already setting up a hard scenario when you're comparing two entire different generations. Right. You've got to factor in those sort of capabilities. Like, if you take a 2600 game and put it up against the NES game, what sort of fairness is that? Because they're different generations. It really depends upon which games you're comparing. I'm not saying you can't do the comparison because people try and make that argument to me all the time. Well, you can't compare a JJP standard to a Stern Pro. I can do what I want. Do you know who I am? I can do whatever I want. Deal with it. Welcome to life.
    17:20
    A few other things have been going on. I finally got my adjuster for the shaker motor for Walking Dead. I decided, I read up. I ended up agreeing with people saying just get a control board that'll add like an analog knob to control the amount of electricity going to the shaker motor rather than messing around with trying to rebalance the weights so I ordered it from China I thought is it going to get past the quarantine the eBay time estimate for the board for shipping was a six week window it came like three days after the earliest date that it gave so that's a pretty big window so we got that installed on Friday.
    18:00
    The glass isn't rattling anymore. It's no longer an earthquake. You'll feel it. I still got it enough so it now feels more like how Star Trek feels. Right. So yeah, it's no longer an earthquake. It's an aftershock. It's no longer waking people up living in the house next door. Yeah, probably not. I don't know. I don't ask them because I don't really care about their feelings.
    18:21
    And then I thought, well, we talked about the tournament at 403 Club already. I did want to note, we One of our major operators, David Luttrell, is moving to, I think, North Carolina. So he's not going to be operating anymore. And the way 403 Club worked was it was split between two operators. We had Nick Greenup, who still is and now is the primary operator. I think at the time he had four of the games. and then I believe the other seven were handled by David. And now I believe Nick has nine of the games and there are two more games that are going to be arranged by the bar owner, Artie. Yeah. So we're now going to be two pins shorter than we used to be. When we first started going to 403, it was an 11-pin lineup. Right. And then expanded to 12, and then expanded to 13. But those were off in another spot in the bar, and so that's going to be replaced by foosball.
    19:31
    Foosball. So it'll be interesting because David bought a lot of the really new stuff. Yeah. Nick buys new stuff too, but David controlled more of the lineup, so he brought in more new stuff. So I don't know if we're going to see more of a variety now of older and newer because Nick has a shop. He's got solid state pinball supply, and he's restoring games a lot that he'll eventually sell through the shop. And sometimes he's been routing those in through 403. So I'm curious if we're going to see more of a mix now.
    20:03
    403, it's fun, but I do have to say when I walk in, a lot of times I feel like I walk into a sternament where it just feels like it's the all stern all the time show. Not entirely. Nick in particular had given us some variety. And I shouldn't say it's all stern. We'd see the JJPs. We'd see the Chicago Gaming Games. Right. So I'm just curious. It'll be interesting to see what happens. Yeah. Whether or not we still have basically every single cornerstone stern, I don't know if that's going to be true now or not. I don't know. Maybe. We'll have to find out. Because even while I still associate Pizza West and Nub's Pub more with a mix of games, Eric actually gets a lot of the really new stuff in for a while at least with arrangements with other collectors and what he buys and stuff. So between 403, Nubs, and Pizza West, I don't necessarily think we'll see a lot of a difference, but I don't know. It's all very speculative. We'll just have to see going forward.
    21:01
    So let's go forward into pinball. Into pinball, baby! Obviously, we've been talking pinball and video games quite a bit already, but there have been a few things that have cropped up. Let me go ahead and start with the tournament talk, since it kind of feeds off of my article I wrote. The capstone to the NACS is the North American Pinball Championship. Right. That happened in Colorado, as we noted. The winner was Colin Urban, who I've heard of. I think he's a younger player. And then at the same time, at the same place, was the Women's World Pinball Championship. And the winner this year was Sunshine Vaughn. Yay, Sunshine! That's right. We know Sunshine. Yes, we've met Sunshine multiple times. That's right. And she lives over in Missouri now. She didn't used to, but she does now. So, yes, she was at the Kansas City Pinball Championship. I spoke to her for a good chunk of time, both this year and last year. She had that really good ball on, or that really good game on, what's the Alaska-themed game? Frontier. Yep. There we go. That's right. We have that on recording because it was very impressive. So, anyway, so congratulations to the winners of that. And I don't know what the results are on Pinmasters. I don't care about champions. That's all I care about. so other news here's an interesting one that's gotten a lot of discussion on Pinside though I have not read the thread because I figured we'll just have our discussion but apparently Spooky Pinball and Chicago Gaming Company have teamed up to jointly do a pinball machine that's designed by Ben Heck who designed America's Most Haunted so apparently he and Spooky are back to talking and from what we understand is the license, it's a licensed pin, but the license was too big for Spooky to build. And I guess this is what they expressed on their Spooky Pinball podcast.
    22:55
    So the speculation is, of course, we know Spooky's busy building Rick and Morty's anyway, but they think it's a license that's so popular it would be beyond their run size, would be my take of this. That's what I would assume. Okay, so something that they think will do better than 750 games. Chicago Gaming obviously has the capability to build more games. They put out more games faster than Spooky does because they do all these remakes. What license is so big that Spooky would secure, that Ben Heck would want to work on, and Chicago Gaming would want to build and sell? I honestly don't know. Yeah. And again, I didn't hear the podcast, so I don't know if there were other clues like, Well, it's an 80s theme. Or it's a, I mean, the usual suspect stuff is things like, it's Jaws. It's, uh. I don't understand this Jaws fascination for a pinball machine. Because the shark can eat the ball. Oh, good. Yay. We've never seen that before.
    23:55
    I've seen a pinball FX3. Because they have a Jaws. Yeah. I actually don't like the layout of their Jaws game either. Yeah. What can you do? I don't know. But you're right. I can see where all the big normal suspects could be up there. You could be a Bond. It could be a... If Spooky secured the license, which is what it sounds like, does that mean this is a spooky license? You know, Scooby-Doo? A horror of some sort? The Ring? What would be that big? I don't think any of those would be that big.
    24:31
    Poltergeist? I don't think... Rosemary's Baby? Is that too old? Is that too old even for pinball? The shiny. The shiny? Oh, shiny. Actually, you could do some fun stuff. You could. With a shiny pinball machine. Gremlins. Gremlins would be a good one.
    24:52
    That would, I could see that. But, Little Shop of Horrors. I hope it's not that. Not a musical. Not that musical. What's wrong with a musical? Not that musical. That was a good musical. We need 1776 first, and then we can have... I can guarantee you, don't get me wrong, I love 1776. It is my favorite musical. I want to do right the Declaration of Independence wizard mode.
    25:21
    The Lees of Virginia multiball. You know it's an attaball because there's so many lees, and you've got to have... The machine has like... Every time you get the attaball, you go, here, here's a lee. There's a lee. There's only everywhere a Lee, a Lee. Yeah. No, I want to make that game. Yeah, well, Spooky's not doing that one, so.
    25:42
    Can't be Killer Clowns. They can't expect that to be a high-volume sale. How many balls could you fit into an anaball?
    25:49
    I guess as many as you want. I'm trying to think of, like, the Lexi Lightspeed in the P3. Well, I don't think it even matters which game. I think that ball trough holds a lot of balls, like, double-digit. Yeah. So. See, that's the thing. For something like that, just for that multi-ball in particular, you'd want to be able to put out 10 or 12 balls. Plus, you could do it. Start at three and just have add-a-ball possibilities and just keep building it. Sure. Just let it go stupid. And you can set it. So, like, I think with – I'm not positive, but I think with Bloodbath and Walking Dead, for example, you can add a ball and keep adding a ball, but it keeps track of the total number that you're allowed to have. So if you get them all in play, that's great. But if not, you still could only have earned so many out of them. Because it starts as a two ball, and I think I can add up to two balls. I'm not positive.
    26:41
    Because it seemed like I was playing it yesterday before we went to tournament, and I thought I didn't get an add-a-ball after I cleared the drop bank again. Or you could have the add-a-ball just re-engage your ball save. Yeah. So every time you trigger it, it just engages the ball save. It adds to the ball save count. Yeah, there are all sorts of ways. Interesting. Well, I don't have any idea what license, and it might not even be a horror-esque theme at all. It might just be something else. I mean, the thought was that the design Ben Heck originally did for Spooky that has not been made was supposed to be Evil Dead. Maybe with, I mean. But it never got built, according to Ben, because the cost of the assets for evil debt. No one ever said it exactly, but my general read was they could not get the star to sign on without paying way more than they felt they could sell the game to warrant the cost. Right. Because you have to get him separate.
    27:47
    I don't know. It was never, like, if you couldn't do it, like, if you wanted Ash, but you can't have Ash. I mean. that'd be i don't again i don't know if it depends what you wanted exactly it would be a tough sell because that was that was a big problem a lot of people had with alien pinball it's like well there's no ripley you can't have ripley how can you feel like you're in alien i thought their theme integration on alien was actually quite good but but that was a fair complaint because yeah it's like okay it's a little it stands out a little bit that you never see ripley in any of the scenes. It's a little weird because those first four revolve around her. The real thing is they're getting to cover the cost to get Bruce Willis because it's Die Hard. Now Die Hard would be that would probably be the 80s and I've spoken about that before. That would be the 80s theme that should have had a pinball machine in the 80s and didn't. That I think could possibly sell okay. I don't know because the last few Diehards have been awful.
    28:51
    But they made money. I guess. I don't know. I didn't follow their box office breakout. But again, if you themed it around the original, I mean, it's kind of like how Jaws defined the summer blockbuster. Diehard defined the modern action movie. There weren't movies really like that before Diehard. And then since then, well, they're not as popular as they used to be. That really defined the 80s and 90s. That's what Schwarzenegger and Stallone made their bones on, made their millions on, were those style of movies. Yeah. And, of course, then you had this one where it's kind of like an everyman action movie sort of thing. So, anyway, I don't know, but I thought it was pretty interesting. Yeah, I'm interested to see what this turns out to be. I have no idea when this gets, I'm guessing not imminently. it's known that Chicago Gaming is working on something it has sounded like for a while because now Christopher Franchi is an artist with them he did part of the design of the topper for Medieval Madness but everyone is expecting that he's working on an original license an original game for CG a non-remake, I don't want to say it's unlicensed but probably not unlicensed if they're smart, it's licensed the final pinball element that I wanted to touch on is Jersey Jack Pinball. They're moving. They put out an announcement that their manufacturing facility in New Jersey is being closed, and they are moving to Chicago. In fact, they are moving to Elk Grove, which is where Stearns Manufacturing is.
    30:28
    Merger. I think I've also heard already that JJP has picked up employees, I think from American pinball over now in Chicago for them instead. I don't remember which employee or employees. But, and it's according to Jack Guarneri, who is the CEO of Jersey Jack Pinball, the move is not expected to, like, it should not delay anything. Well, you'd have to be making a game for it to cause an effect. Yes, but they're claiming none of their timelines are being compromised. Well, yes, because you'd have to have a game on the construction line. Yes, I know. I'm just saying, like, if you thought, like, a lot of people think that the Guns N' Roses game will be announced next, and that that's probably going to be announced at either TPF or within a month of TPF. Whatever happened to Toy Story? That's supposed to be after Guns N' Roses. Oh. Okay. And that claim has been most of what I've been hearing for a while. Like, shortly after Wonka, it seemed, from the rumor mill I was hearing from, locked in that GNR was next, not Toy Story. Even though, because it didn't make sense to me, because it's like, but Toy Story was coming out in the summer of 2019. Wouldn't that be logical to be your next game? Obviously. Well, no, but that's not what's happening. Part of that could be, supposedly, Toy Story is Lawler, Guns N' Roses is Eric Minier, and Wonka was Lawler. so space them out. Which would make sense. Space them out. So, anyway, yeah, I don't know. For those that weren't aware, the way Jersey Jack Pinball has been doing it is their designers, their design teams are in Chicago but they built the games in New Jersey and Jack and his, like, I think his daughter works for the company as well They all were in New Jersey So this move to a new facility I not entirely clear if the design and manufacturing are all going to be housed in one building. I thought so, and then I heard someone say they didn't hear that was confirmed. But it sounded like, you know, Well, officially it's like, well, we need more space, and it's going to be bigger. There are a lot of good reasons to want your designers and your build team in the same town, or nearby at the very least, because as a good case in point, I heard an interview over with Loser Kid Pinball Podcast with Keith Elwin, and he talked about sometimes with Jurassic Park, he needs to go down to the line if they're having trouble with something to show them how to assemble a piece or help with, like, here's how you need to put this together, here's how I laid it out. Right. sort of stuff. That's harder for Jersey Jack because their line people can't just go across the hallway and ask Pat Lawler to help them. They don't know how to assemble this piece in what order it goes in because he's hundreds of miles away.
    33:28
    Which makes sense. So, there are a lot of reasons for it to make... Other than Jack lived in New Jersey, I don't understand why they would have ever chosen New Jersey to build games. It seems... Because a lot of the suppliers are already in the Chicago area. And I can still see it being separate, like Deep Root choosing Texas. No problem. Maybe a little bit more of a problem than being in the heart bed of pinball, but with Jersey Jack, they split it. So the design team was in Chicago. It's like it wasn't all in New Jersey. It would have made more sense if they were all in one place, but it's New Jersey. Yeah.
    34:05
    Exactly. So my question here is what do you think this means for Jersey Jack Pinball? Because it's like some people look and they go, okay, well, they can afford to move, so this is all a good sign. Like they have the money to do the move. But I'm sitting there thinking, yeah, they do, but this is an efficiency game for sure, so they must feel they need to do it. Right. so I don't know necessarily that's actually I think it's a smart move but are they I mean are the financials like long term financials that bad that they're like we can't maintain two facilities this far apart and pay for travel and everything it's going to be cheaper in the long run it will definitely be cheaper in the long run but they're going to take a quality control hit you think so they have all those I mean one of the things that they have in Chicago is a lot of the manufacturers like Stern, my understanding is use a somewhat elastic temporary workforce that now Jersey Jack could draw on that knows how to work on pinball machines. Well, that's a valid point. They will lose the ones that know exactly how to build wonkas. Right. Longer term, people that know about, oh yeah, this is how you hammer in inserts. This is how you put in T-nuts. There's a whole workforce there that isn't always kept busy by the other manufacturers depending on supply and demand. I guess I hadn't thought the workforce was that elastic.
    35:44
    Again, I don't know for sure, but that's been the thing that Spooky Pinball has stressed. Why they don't grow is it's a small town. They have their, I'm assuming, quite loyal small workforce, and the concern is if they ramp up and do something big and then the next license isn't like a Rick and Morty, but it's a Rob Zombie, they have to lay people off, and they don't want to do that. But morally, they don't want to do that. So they would rather stay and keep themselves artificially smaller than they should be, is my interpretation, in order to not have to deal with the difficult fact of, you know, to not be cold about, okay, well, you're going to be on for this, and then after a year, I might have to let you go, but I might bring you back in nine months, sort of thing. Right. Whereas my understanding is with Stern, and actually a lot of the Chicago manufacturing workforce, they're quite used to that. Like, that's just a way of life. And there's enough of them around there that when one's ramping down, then there's probably another one ramping up. And there are other manufacturers that they, like, they're cross-travel. Like, there's stuff non-pinball some of them go do in between, and it just, and there's work. There's work, and it works. I mean, Chicago's not, like, high unemployment or anything. Yeah. They keep them busy. So, yeah, so that was that. It kind of makes sense to me on, but if they're at the point where it's like we need to close a facility and we need to move everything, we need to consolidate, I also don't think, just based off of what I've heard him say before, I don't think this was Jack's idea. Probably not. He's got outside investors. We've known that as of Hobbit. He's had to. and I really question the longevity of Jersey Jack pinball. We've questioned it for a couple years now. This reminds me of the questions on it, just because I'm not expecting to see any sort of price decline on their games. I think where they've tried to do that is on their standard with Wonka, which I think was the right move for them. I do think that was the right move. And I did hear in an interview with Jack, he did not initially agree with that idea, Because that runs counter to his, all my models are going to have the same features, and clearly that's not true anymore. And, of course, going back on his word, I'm sure, was very difficult for him, but operators just don't want to buy those expensive games. Because they don't earn enough extra coin drop versus a Stern Pro. So why would you? I mean, if you can't make the money back, what's the point? I mean, it's like they dip more than a Stern does for dollars. I mean, percentage-wise might be the same, but raw dollars are what matter to a person operating who then needs to sell off the asset when they're done. So a lot of times, the operators aren't making back the full cost of the game. But once they sell the game plus what they earned in the coin box, they make money. Kind of how? Yeah. Well, David Luttrell, there's no way he earned back the $4,000-plus that he must have spent on Guardians of the Galaxy in the coin box. That's part of the reason he got rid of Guardians originally It wasn't earning well enough But I'm sure he made money once he sold the game He took his several hundred dollar hit But whatever he got in the coin box I'm sure bounced that out But that's easier with a cheaper game Than it is with the JJP game Yeah If you got a $12,000 game That's a bigger ask Yeah and like you Again it may very well be true That it's not going to affect the production cycle because we have no idea what JJP's production cycle is. They're still stating that they plan to release two games a year. Clearly, they failed to do it last year when it was pretty insistent up until about halfway through the year that that was going to happen. Right. So I don't know. And I don't think things are all... My initial thought could have been, well, Wonka's doing so well. Why go to the next game? Except I don't even think they've gotten all the collector's editions out to the pre-orderers. So clearly, and we know that game, the collector's version of that was super delayed. It was. And I wonder, not only was it super delayed, it was really cruddy.
    40:02
    Yeah. I mean, I wasn't impressed with it. I think people would have been less harsh about that had they known exactly what was in the collector's edition when all the other games were shown instead of going around with quote-unquote collector's editions that were hodgepodge of different games. I mean, I remember on the reveal I was so confused because I was like, well, this is like the collector's edition armor, but it's not the playfield.
    40:29
    Okay. Well, I don't know how you make a decision to buy it when I'm seeing the wrong playfield in it. Right. I don't know. But a lot of people don't need to make decisions. They've already put their money down. They put their money down before the announcement. I think what ultimately happened with the CE is with its limit, its limit wasn't that... It's just so expensive that I don't think, I think if you want a CE, you can still buy one new. So it's not like it was hurting any. But that does bring up the question, are they shutting down the Wonka line before all the CEs are completed to make this move? And then re-entering construction of the Wonkas?
    41:11
    Maybe. See, I'm not sure where the CEs fit in all of that, because one of the things I did hear was that JJP right now has a surplus of Wonkas already built. So they don't need to keep the line busy right now. Well, yeah, that doesn't surprise me. But with them still putting out CEs, unless they're to the point where all the CEs that have been purchased already are out. Yeah, and that may be. I had heard someone had said they had just recently received their long-ago-ordered CE. he was one of the last. When I saw that, I thought, oh, maybe they're still trying to build them and ship them. But I don't know what the deal was.
    41:50
    It can't be fun to pack up and move that much stuff. No, no. But I guess the move's already been underway.
    41:59
    We'll have to see if it improves their efficiencies enough that we actually see some sizable advancements on their manufacturing timeline. Because so far, they still feel real boutique when it comes to building. Yeah. Building speed. Yeah, this is weird. It's definitely an issue. So let's go to video games. We're going to video games. Are there any issues in video games that we need to talk about? There are no issues in video games. Oh, that's good. We covered a lot of this in our opening when we were talking about COVID. Sure, sure. But we'll just touch on a couple of it and we'll enhance on some of it. GDC has been postponed until the summer. Yep. Which we'll find out if it's canceled or not. It's such a big event. I do think they're really going to try and just postpone it. South by Southwest was canceled.
    42:49
    Emerald City Comic Con is... I have it down as canceled. It's supposed to be postponed, but I could see it being full-on canceled. Okay. But they're hoping for a late to re-hold it late summer.
    43:04
    But with, you know, space... It's getting the space. That's the that's for those that have never done event management. That's the that's the big challenge is these facilities book out all these days, years in advance, usually.
    43:18
    And so it's not always such a simple thing to just go, oh, well, I'll just move it to this weekend. It's like, well, can you even do it in the same spot? Do you have to do it in the same spot? because your contract might say you're going to, if it's delayed because of a contractual reason that allowed you not have to pay any penalties, that you have to redo the event at the facility. I've had contracts with past employers that are written that way. Yeah, and then they just have to find a weekend that it would fit in somewhere. Yep, and then you've got the big question of, is it a big event? Obviously, these things are. Guests, presenters, can they make the new date? Not all of them will be able to. So your whole show... Because a lot of them have been planned out for a year. So we'll have to see. We spoke about the Mortal Kombat 11. They canceled the Last Chess Qualifier event. That event was yesterday. The finals is today. They canceled on Friday.
    44:20
    That's tight. So they are fully refunding tickets. and they have said that for people who have incurred non-cancellable, non-refundable hotel and airfare costs to contact them. So while I've not been able to find any details out on it, it sounds from there and from some of the staff members who said stuff, they're planning on at least putting together some form of package to assist with refunds for people who have incurred costs for nothing at this point.
    44:59
    But no word for sure on what that's going to turn out to be. We've already talked about EA canceling some stuff and Riot Games League of Legends Championship down there in Frisco.
    45:10
    We talked about some rules they put in place. They canceled all of the fan meet events where the teams meet the fans and do all the signings. Those are all canceled. And there is no post game handshakes And no victory high fives They're basically saying No physical contact Is what they've laid out at this point They may have to upgrade to Boy in the bubble style They might Each person comes out in their own tank And has everything set up in it They just plug the wires into it It's possible And they did state are in contact with the venue and with local government.
    45:55
    And they'll put out more information going forward. Now their venue is not TPF's venue. Obviously League of Legends is way larger than TPF. Their venue is actually one of the auditorium buildings where the Cowboys are based at in the Star. In their area in the Star. But it's less than five minutes from TPF. Moving past that into still in esports, but Valve Software has decided to test the waters. They're putting out, they're requesting bids for host cities for the International for next year. The International is Valve's world championship for Dota 2. The League of Legends competitor. Correct. They put out a detailed RFP document and requested responses by the 31st of March.
    46:56
    I have a link to the RFP in the show notes just because it's interesting reading, but I'll hit some of the highlights. The requests are for they need a modern indoor arena or stadium with a capacity of between 15 and 80,000 that must be available for a 10-day period in August of 2021. They need additional space for ancillary events Like get togethers And after parties and stuff They need hotel space of upwards of 30,000 people They need fiber connectivity To the area And they're looking for proximity To an international airport and a strong Local transportation system Obviously Kansas City's out We have the KC bus We got the streetcars The metro and the streetcars. Yeah.
    47:46
    We have an international airport. Yeah. Do we have hotel space for 30,000 downtown? Probably. I mean, because Kansas City for years and years was host for the NCAA. I would assume so.
    48:01
    Our Big 12 tournament. Yeah, for the Big 12 tournament. Yeah, Big 12 is what I'm thinking of. I think we do have the hotel space. And I mean the Sprint Center could hold The capacity We're fine I'll fill out the RFP for Kansas City I just won't tell them It'll be a nice surprise Because there were other things they wanted Like assistance from you know Working with the government and the police department And all that stuff But it was just an interesting RFP to read They will be doing the final selection By the middle of June Okay But they not going to announce it until the International this year which is in August
    48:42
    Shifting over, Overwatch have put in their experimental mode. Yep. I have not played it. I saw it. It's over. Never mind. Yeah. I thought it'd be in for about a month, and it was in for like two weeks. Two weeks. Yes. But the experimental mode is remaining. The mode that they were testing Is not Obviously But they tested a triple damage Format Instead of the current 2-2-2 format They went with the 3-2-1 with the 1 being the tank I watched Seagull stream that Yeah I've seen a couple streams They made some major changes to balance For tanks All in all from everything I've read It wasn't locked Okay Siegel liked it Decently though His takeaway was That it should probably just be 2-2-1 And take it down to 5 He thought that would be better balanced than trying to do 3-2-1 And you still have your cube He was like He was having fun with it But he's like It's really almost just loosely structured chaos Because They didn't balance how the game behaves With 3 DPS and it's just overwhelming. Yeah, and most of the stuff I saw and the people talking about it that I listened to, that was, it would need heavy rebalancing to work. And some of the maps are just terrible for one tank with three DPS. Even with the tanks modified, with their health knocked up, shield strength knocked up, all these other, it's just too much. I would honestly, though, they might not be interested because of other issues, but I really think it would be worth trying to see if you could get away with doing 3-2-2 instead and see if you need to rebalance much with that, where you go ahead and do the three DPS, but let there be the two tanks. So now you can still do the tank-off tank coordination and have the existing balance structure. Obviously, things like shields will melt faster and everything like that. But if you didn't balance anything else, I think all you would have is more hectic, fast gameplay.
    50:59
    And ultimately, initially. And so in response to that, you might be then considering whether or not you need to go ahead and kind of take the tanks back to maybe their older styles where they had bigger shields. And or maybe up the, like, heel over times that the supports can provide. Yeah. Valid things. I know they made major changes to the tank lines. and some of the changes from people I spoke with and listened to, they really liked some of the changes that they wished were in the main game, but it could be understandable because not being there, because they might have made it in an actual 2-2-2 would be a little OP. Yeah, big news at 11, tank players love being turned into gods. Because when they're solo tanking, they had to be. Right. Especially those off tanks, because how are they supposed to function? They were never designed to work alone. Right.
    51:54
    I think the one I heard the people liking the most was Zarya. That's who I saw played the most. Because she became a god. AOE bubble. AOE bubble, yeah. Just being able to bubble everybody within a certain distance of you. Yeah, all allies within eight meters of you, and the duration was knocked up for an extra second. So for three seconds, you basically, if your whole team was around you, click, oh, you ulted? I don't care.
    52:24
    I mean, the sheer amount of damage was, yeah. We'll see. I like the experimental mode itself. The idea of it. and trying out different things, and it will let them try out modifications to characters. I think that'll be nice to see. Instead of relying on the PTR, because the truth of the matter is, not a lot of people play the PTR. I think they should actually move experimental in under the arcade games. Yeah, I could see that. And just leave something up. Well, because there's an added incentive as well. I mean, you can make it in the rotation where it's not on when they don't have anything new to test. But if you put it in the, because one of the things Overwatch has is, of course, the ability for people to win a free loot crates. Right. When they play the arcade mode, they get one every three wins up to nine a week, nine games a week for three crates that way. So it's like, I'll go and play Mystery Heroes to try and get wins to get, you know, I get free crates as part of the reward. So if they want even more people to play it, put it in under, because it's not contributing any other way as just a standalone mode. So stick it under Arcade, let it count as Arcade, and I think you'll get even more people to play it. Yeah, I can see that.
    53:46
    I'll be interested to see what they have coming forward to try. Yes, because they're trying to make the game more fun.
    53:55
    Because no fun allowed sometimes. Sometimes. Yeah. Goats, meta, no fun. Well, I mean... Except for now people are like, oh, but now people are doing the whole, oh, GOATS wasn't that bad. No, GOATS was pretty bad. Just like they were doing, oh, DIVE wasn't that bad. I mean, I like it now where I think they made a lot of really good changes for, like, Overwatch League. Like, I don't mind. I look forward to seeing DIVE now when I don't have to see it all the time. Right. If I had to pick between DIVE and GOATS, I would pick DIVE. But part of the reason is, even though there was a lot of excellent coordination with goats, we just had goats for longer. So I made it more painful. Well, and I think dive is more interesting because it is more fast-paced. Because well-played, well-executed goats will be, oh, hey, look, we just burned six ultimates and we got zero kills, and that's perfectly acceptable in goats. Well, in goats, no one was playing a damage character. So that inherently, you've taken out a third of the game, essentially, and said, even more than a third. And you're like, okay, that stuff doesn't count anymore. It's all about good tanking and good support.
    55:08
    And as someone who plays more support and tank than I do DPS, that part was fun. But also, there's no... I mean, that was part of the... I remember one of the commentators... I'm trying to remember which one. who has left, one of the less popular ones, Simler. Simler, okay. Who I don't remember what he went over to. Didn't he go to Call of Duty? I think so, but I wasn't sure. And Simler, I remember when I read his sort of exit interview that he went public with about leaving, being a commentator for Overwatch, a lot of people who left, they all had different reasons. Frustrations with management, like Monty had. You know, how Malik left, because he felt they weren't paying him enough. Yeah. And then with Simler, it was, he really emphasized, my problem is it's boring to cast. Because in season one, you had the potential for a character, a DPS character, to come in and change the tide of the battle. And in season two, you didn't have that. And I just, I don't have it in my heart to talk about something where there's no excitement.
    56:17
    It's perfectly valid. And so it's like, I'm like, okay, well, he was, according to Reddit, he was the worst caster of the lot. So I'm not surprised that part of that could be that his boredom was shining through. Right. When you're sitting there and you're like, okay, it's not going to be like when Carpe in season one came back to one of the control points as Widow and headshot three people and took the point back alone. Yeah, you don't get those magic moments. You don't get that against three tanks. Carpe's widow goes and dies You got three tanks covered by three supports And it's like When you're looking for the only way to get the kills You have to kill the right support At the right time To open the gap There were reversals There were but it was nowhere near as interesting It had to be things like tanks Making superior That was the thing about season two It was the reign of the aggressive tank Yeah Reinhardt's like Bumper and Super who are just super aggressive players, their style worked really well and that's why you saw teams like New York, which were much more conservative in their play style, suffer because New York's entire team philosophy has been up until this season I'd say, and still I think most of their team leans this way, is wait for a DPS to make a mistake and punish it when there are no DPS's they can't make mistakes What do you think of the hero pools? We only caught a little bit of it yesterday We're going to be able to watch more today So far I like what I've seen I do too I like the forced meta changes And it's interesting To see What the teams do to try and make up For the characters that have been removed And the removals for this week The support removal Moira doesn't affect anything No She's a very situational support But the removal Of Reinhardt And McCree Who are core members of the Meta that we've seen develop over the last Few weeks of play Made for some very significant Changes and the loss of Widow Means some of that big Widow pop off Crazy stuff That you get on occasion Especially on maps like Havana and Eldorado gets a lot of Widow play With that vanished It's kind of changed the play style I haven't seen either of those maps played since then Because we didn't watch it I don't think they played any of those maps yesterday But it will be interesting To see how it continues Forward I did like when they did the hero pool The removal draw It was a literal draw With a lottery Yeah, and it was funny, and it was interesting to see, and I'm looking forward to see how it keeps going forward. I guess we should go ahead and clarify, for those that aren't familiar with what we mean by hero pools, this was a decision in order to force more rapid meta changes, and meta means the defined default best way to play a particular game through the character selections in particular. So what Overwatch League has done, and they just kicked it into effect as of yesterday, or Saturday, yesterday for us recording, is those, after a set period of time, the most commonly chosen tanks, support, and damage dealers are put into a bin, rotated about, and then they draw one of the tanks out, out of a set of two, I believe. Was it two or three that they threw in? I think they put in three. It's anybody over 10% play. Oh, that's the rule. I thought maybe it was the top three. No, it's anybody over 10% play time. Because I didn't notice they were all over 10%. So, yes. So, the most commonly chosen characters of those are put in amongst their same class type, tank, support, damage. And then they draw one tank, one support, and two DPS. And for the next set period of time, those characters are not available for selection. So it's designed so that Okay well here's the most common stuff So that's the meta stuff So we're going to take things away Out of your meta And that mandates a meta shift Because if you can't play the character You have to figure out a new way to play the game And if I recall correctly In competitive play Competitive non-Overwatch play Every week They take and do the pull Pull off of the previous weeks based upon the previous week's playlist. But in Overwatch League, they're doing it based upon the last two weeks' play with the addition that the players, any characters that were banned cannot be banned for the following week. Well, and, I mean, they can't be selected, so how would they ever make it into the... Because it's two weeks. Oh, I see what you're saying. Yeah, because with Overwatch League, they're doing two weeks' worth of data. So like Reinhardt, who's running at 70% play time, depending upon how the teams break the met up, he still might be over the threshold. Okay, I get what you're... I wasn't sure how often they were going to do the draws. It's weekly. Okay. They're doing weekly draws. Originally I thought they were going to let it stick for two weeks just because so few teams play in a single week.
    61:50
    I think that's a little weird, but... I think they're doing it weekly because it's scheduled for the watch point at the end of everything tonight. They must be then My personal opinion is they didn't need to be that aggressive About hero pool changes But I'm not going to complain about it They might adjust it if they think it's too much They might adjust it The one thing I'm wondering is If you're doing it weekly Is it going to be a week of The meta with the Mei, McCree But again because of the draws maybe not Because we didn't have Mei removed Even though she was the most picked DPS character of the whole Overwatch League so far.
    62:33
    And she didn't get drawn. They failed. They had one job. But we're already seeing some, like the teams we watched yesterday, they didn't all run Mei. No. Now the team that didn't run Mei lost.
    62:45
    That's true. What's that tell you? Meta still holds. Mei is bae. You still have to have that crowd control and you still have to have those good walls. Yeah. But with the loss of the two most popular hitscan characters, McCree and Widowmaker, we saw a lot of Tracer and we saw quite a bit more Soldier 76 than I thought. And Soldier hasn't been meta in forever in a day. Was Soldier ever meta in Overwatch League? Yeah. The second point offense on Hanamura to take the high ground, there was a period where that was the way to approach that map. He was there for a meta on a single part of a single map. Yes. Kind of like Junkrat on point A Defense on Anubis. Right. Meta for a single map. Yes. Unless you're Jake. Then you play the J-Graph. And then you're a caster, because you suck. And your team needs you now, though, so come back. Oh. Hang on. They retired his number? Well, he could be... They've won their last two games. Yeah. Well, the meta shift has saved them now. Yes. Because... Because it lets Mooma play characters he's actually good with. Yes. I used to think Mooma was a pretty good Rein, but I do not anymore. Because they are two and five now. Yeah. They're climbing out of the dungeon. Yeah. Well, did we have anything else? That's it. We had a lot of topics, but we actually didn't go through them too slowly. I guess we're becoming more efficient with our words. We are. Well, we covered some of the video game stuff in the opening. Yeah, I'm counting the whole. But as a whole. Yeah, our intro was like 20 minutes long. Yeah. But it was on topics. I don't think people are going to complain too much. But if you want to complain, you can to EclecticGamersPodcast at gmail.com. or you can reach out to us, facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. We're available on Twitter, Twitch, and Instagram as eclectic underscore gamers. And so we'll be back in two weeks, which will be the last podcast episode before TPF, unless TPF is canceled. We'll have to record the day before, wife's birthday. Yes. I'm Dennis. I'm Tony. Goodbye, everybody. Bye.