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Episode 292. deeproot Pinball panel discussion on RAZA

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·1h 14m·analyzed·Dec 10, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

Deep Root Pinball panel discusses Raza launch, pin bar innovation, and multi-year development challenges.

Summary

Deep Root Pinball holds a panel discussion on Pinball Profile covering the development journey of Raza (Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland), its recent website launch, and pre-order availability. The team discusses key innovations including the pin bar touchscreen interface, narrative-driven gameplay design, and the challenges of building a pinball platform from scratch. Robert Mueller reflects on lessons learned about managing expectations and team dynamics, while Quinn Johnson and Stephen Bowen detail the creative and technical complexities of weaving story into pinball mechanics.

Key Claims

  • Raza is now available for purchase on Deep Root's website after launching within the last three weeks

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis mentions the website was 'just launched this week' and Raza can be purchased; the panel confirms they've moved from prototype phase to sales

  • Robert Mueller emphasizes Raza as 'the most innovative pinball machine ever made' with a redesigned platform

    high confidence · Mueller directly states: 'we redesigned the pinball machine, but still kept it at its core a pinball machine. And we feel the most innovative pinball machine ever made.'

  • The pin bar touchscreen interface took the most time and attention during development, surpassing even engineering challenges

    high confidence · Mueller explicitly states: 'I would say most of the time and attention went in and around the pin bar' and describes it as engineering nightmare with cascading impacts on playfield design

  • It took over three months to remove the pin bar from Raza's code to show a prototype without it in November 2019

    high confidence · Mueller: 'when we decided to show Raza last year...it took us over three months to rip the pin bar out of the platform just to show a regular machine in November...It took us three and a half months to rip the pin bar out of the code, out of the graphics, out of the rule set'

  • Quinn Johnson came from a video game and comics background rather than pinball, which Mueller credits with fresh perspective on design

    high confidence · Quinn: 'I came from a video game background more than a pinball background' and Mueller notes this allows them to challenge conventional pinball assumptions

  • Deep Root experienced a 'disappointing outcome in September' where they wanted to show things off but were prevented by external factors

    high confidence · Mueller: 'after the disappointing outcome in September where we really wanted to show things off and we really should have, but for a couple of, you know, things, some of them outside of our control'

  • Supply chain issues were identified as 'our nemesis and our weakness' this year in development

Notable Quotes

  • “Pinball is hard.”

    Deep Root Pinball website @ ~9:50 — Mueller acknowledges the difficulty of manufacturing pinball from scratch, appearing on company website as a statement of philosophy

  • “We've really done an amazing thing. We feel redesigned the pinball machine, but still kept it at its core a pinball machine. And we feel the most innovative pinball machine ever made.”

    Robert Mueller @ ~12:00 — Core claim about Raza's significance in pinball history and design philosophy

  • “Bringing Raza to life when everyone said that Raza could never come to life because it was just one of J-Pop's projects that would never see the light of day, it would never be working.”

    Robert Mueller @ ~13:30 — Acknowledges Raza's complex history originating from Papa Duke's defunct project, validates Deep Root's ability to fulfill it

  • “I've learned over the years to listen better to the people that I'm entrusting the development of this game and this platform...me opening my mouth and being perhaps rightfully bullish on a lot of the things we can do, maybe a little earlier than we were really ready to do them, I think is something that I've learned to try to be more humble, try to keep expectations in line.”

    Robert Mueller @ ~14:45 — Mueller reflects on personal growth regarding managing expectations and team communication—addresses long delays and earlier over-promising

  • “It took us over three months to rip the pin bar out of the platform just to show a regular machine in November.”

    Robert Mueller @ ~52:30 — Concrete example of how integral the pin bar is to the platform; demonstrates integration complexity

  • “The pin bar just made so much sense to me. And I'm like, I can't believe that no one's ever done this before. This makes so much sense.”

    Quinn Johnson @ ~37:00 — Outsider perspective on pin bar innovation; validates UI/UX approach from fresh viewpoint

  • “A touchscreen is now a blank canvas. And all we've done with the pinball in many ways is brought a blank canvas to the pinball machine now. And it's up to us the first time to get it right.”

Entities

Deep Root PinballcompanyRobert MuellerpersonQuinn JohnsonpersonStephen BowenpersonRaza (Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland)gamePin BarproductPapa Duke (John Papaduke)person

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Supply chain identified as significant operational bottleneck during 2020 development cycle

    high · Mueller: 'this year its supply chain definitely has been our nemesis and our weakness' when discussing development challenges

  • ?

    community_signal: Deep Root conducting major media outreach including podcast panels, livestreamed gameplay, and website launch to rebuild confidence after previous delays

    high · Three-week marketing push: 'What's Brewing' stream on Fliptronic, website launch, Pinball Profile panel discussion; Mueller: 'we just wanted to get the game out there...we'll let our products...speak for itself'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Story-driven pinball narrative approach integrating animations, voice acting, and character development; balancing cinematic storytelling with pinball's chaotic randomness

    high · Quinn discusses weaving story into pinball medium; Stephen explains governor role managing story flow against ball physics unpredictability; extensive animation and voice work by external talent

  • $

    market_signal: Deep Root's redemption arc: from over-promising startup to shipping product; Mueller's personal growth from bullish expectation-setting to humble team trust

    high · Mueller discusses 'nine lives' and learning to 'listen better' to team; contrasts early October 2018 panel excitement with 'disappointing outcome in September' before final launch push

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Cross-disciplinary team composition bringing video game, comics, and pinball expertise; non-traditional background enriched design process

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.223

0:00
it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teals you can find everything on pinballprofile.com past shows subscriptions and more you can find us on instagram we're also on twitter at pinball profile email us pinballprofile at gmail.com so i found out a couple of hours ago that i'm going to be interviewing a panel of people from deep root pinball to talk about what's happened over the last few weeks, including the launch of their website and the ability for people to purchase Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland, Raza. And joining us right now, I'll let each of you introduce yourselves. Okay, well, hey, I'll start. I'm Quinn Johnson. I am the narrative game writer and designer here at DeepRoot. And I'm Stephen Bowen, rules designer here at DeepRoot. And definitely last, this is Robert Mueller. I'm principal here at DeepRoot Pinball. Thanks for having us, Jeff. Thank you for doing this because I know a lot of people are listening. We normally have a lot of people listening to this show, and they kind of cover all aspects too, whether it's certainly the consumers of pinball, the hobbyists, the distributors themselves. Perhaps your competition might be listening to this too. So people want to know. This is the new toy on the market right now, and people are excited. People that love pinball want to see what's out there. And what we've seen over the last three weeks has been very, very exciting from Deep Root. It first started with what's brewing, and all of a sudden, out of nowhere, we see Raza on location in San Antonio, even streamed on Fliptronic. And then the website was just launched this week, and now we can purchase the game. You've come a long way. It seems like it's been a long journey for sure, but these last three weeks seem to be funneling everything together. Yeah, it's exciting. It's exciting for us. I mean, I can just speak from my experience. it's so cool to finally after all these years of i mean i've been here for three years and robert of course is there's a lot of his journey that came before that but it's just so cool to see what what started as here's some ideas here's some things that we think would be cool here's some of the big innovations that we think make sense and and then finally to finally finally have it in a place where you can share it with the world and and finally talk about all the things that that you've been so excited about it's really really cool it's one of the best feelings ever Yeah, it's really been a great journey up to this point, and I'm looking forward to it continuing. I think when I first came on your podcast, Spinball Profile, I talked about one of my first major tournaments was Papa 8, and I told you at that time that I didn't even know what division I needed to be in, so I looked over at the A division, and I saw the people who were playing in that division. Some of the people who were on the game's apron who had designed games were over there, So I knew not to go over there, so I went with my friends in the B Division. And now I'm one of those people.

high confidence · Mueller: 'engineering has definitely had its issues, and this year its supply chain definitely has been our nemesis and our weakness'

  • The pin bar supports five different configurable layouts based on user needs and arcade operator requirements

    medium confidence · Jeff mentions: 'I saw you on the video on DeepRootPinball.com, Robert, show some demonstrations with the pin bar. There were, I think, five different configurations you can do'

    • Robert Mueller @ ~44:30 — Frames pin bar as unprecedented opportunity in pinball industry; emphasizes first-mover responsibility

  • “We could have gone with the simple, you know, cheap, you know, 4x3 or, you know, a 6x9 little screen, but what we wanted is we wanted a custom, beautiful aspect ratio matched with the back bar, ultra-wide screen.”

    Robert Mueller @ ~48:00 — Details deliberate design choice prioritizing aesthetic and usability over cost reduction

    • David Thiel
    person
    Utah Studiocompany
    Jeff Teolisperson
    Caitlin Elizabethperson
    Billy Bob Thompsonperson
    Fliptronicorganization
    This Week in Pinballmedia
    Pinball Expoevent

    high · Quinn from video game/comics background; Stephen from pinball expertise; Mueller emphasizes value of not defaulting to 'that's how it's always been done' mentality

  • ?

    announcement: Raza officially available for pre-order through Deep Root Pinball website; marks transition from prototype to commercial availability

    high · Jeff: 'the website was just launched this week, and now we can purchase the game.' Mueller confirms: 'this time we just wanted to get the game out there...up for order so people can order it and we can manufacture it, ship it to their house'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Pin bar touchscreen as primary innovation differentiating Raza from all other pinball machines; proprietary technology with multiple configuration modes

    high · Mueller: 'while anyone can stick a touchscreen somewhere on a pinball machine, can they get it right the first time?' Quinn: 'I can't believe that no one's ever done this before.' Mueller confirms only Deep Root implements this feature.

  • ?

    product_concern: Post-development refinement of game rules and shop mechanics; mode selection changed from random assignment to player choice between Houston prototype and final release

    high · Stephen: 'Whereas in Houston, you would get tickets, and you had to have enough to afford a mode that we would give you' vs. current version where 'you choose what you want.' MagnaSafe repurchase mechanic added.

  • ?

    technology_signal: Introduction of interactive touchscreen display on pinball playfield apron as standard feature, challenging traditional pinball design assumptions

    high · Extensive discussion of pin bar engineering, UX/UI development, and Mueller noting it took 'most of the time and attention' in platform development; hundreds to thousands of UX iterations

    • 2:55
    That's kind of amazing to really think about a little bit. Very humbling as well to also know really what goes into a game, what goes into designing a game as far as my side with rules and design and logic and backup logic and big dozen Cs and all sorts of other things that I have to think about when I'm designing rules and starting with Raza's rules and moving on forward to other games. And Robert, I mean, putting this all together, you have to do it from scratch. Absolutely every aspect, engineering, IT, coding, physical design, manufacturing, everything has to be done from scratch. Did you anticipate that it would take this long? Did you think it would be easier? We've talked about the quote from a long time ago, but it's funny. I did notice on the Deep Root Pinball website, there was a line that said, and it's big and bold, pinball is hard. I did chuckle at that. I thought it was good. But, you know what, it's admitting this is a long process, and it does take a lot of moving parts. Yeah, it does. You know, you look back, and you try to second-guess yourself, and then you realize, wow, we've really done an amazing thing. We feel redesigned the pinball machine, but still kept it at its core a pinball machine. And we feel the most innovative pinball machine ever made. And, you know, we haven't even put all of our innovations into, you know, the Rasa platform. You know, there's going to be years to go as we continue to engineer and really refine those innovations and keep putting them in future releases. So we're really excited about Rasa. Raza is a, you know, we just, we willed it into existence. You know, looking back, you know, we tried to redesign the platform and in parallel also, you know, work on games. And I don't know if that was the right decision or not. It was definitely the hard way to do it. And so for us to see not only our platform, but also, you know, bringing Raza to life when everyone said that Raza could never come to life because it was just, you know, one of J-Pop's projects that would never see the light of day, It would never be working. I have to thank these two gentlemen here and a massive team that's a willed Raza to what it is today. And that is an amazing, fun play experience on, again, what we feel is the most innovative platform, pinball platform, you know, ever in the history of pinball. And we can't wait for more and more people to get on it and to play it and have fun with it. And then as we move on to other titles to keep exploring, you know, our innovative platform and trying new things and bringing more to pinball players out of the pinball experience. I first saw you, Robert, and the panel, Quinn, and I've seen Stephen many times. But really, people talking about Deep Root was a couple of years ago at Pinball Expo for that panel in Chicago in October. And it got people excited. You see Barry Ousler, you see John Norris, you mentioned J-Pop, and you wondered, what is this company going to be? And then we see a year later, last year I was there and with Stephen in Houston, the prototype of Raza. And even though we were told over and over again, it is just the prototype, there were things to be excited about when you saw that game. And then it takes a year to get to where we are right now. The reason I'm asking about the delay, is it because you only get one first impression or you took so much different information? What was the reason we went from that first panel in October of 2018 to where we are right now where you can purchase the game? I think that I've learned over the years to listen better to the people that I'm entrusting the development of this game and this platform. And I think that many times I had my expectation, and reality definitely was very different. We have very talented people. I think probably some of the most talented people that could ever be at a pinball design company here, and they put forth their blood and sweat and tears. And I think that as time went on, I became more and more cognizant. And while I can set the tone and the vision and which direction we're going is to step back a little bit and let them do what they do best. And so, you know, me opening my mouth and being perhaps rightfully bullish on a lot of the things we can do, maybe a little earlier than we were really ready to do them, I think is something that I've learned to try to be more humble, try to keep expectations in line. But I can tell you is that, you know, with nine lives, we've run through most of them. And we knew, you know, especially after the disappointing outcome in September where we really wanted to show things off and we really should have, but for a couple of, you know, things, some of them outside of our control, is that this time we just wanted to get the game out there. We wanted people to play it. We wanted to get it, you know, up for order so people can order it and we can manufacture it, ship it to their house, and they can just enjoy it. And, you know, we'll let our products and the efforts of our team basically speak for itself moving forward. I want to bring up a point about that because, Quinn, when I watch these animations and the storyboard, I want to know what's going to happen. What's going on with Ned and Angela? I mean, it's fun to watch the video on Deep Root Pinball of Quinn and Stephen playing the game and kind of explaining about, okay, the atomic shop and you've got to buy tickets to get modes. And I think I was talking to Steven a long time ago, and he said, you should see the storyboard on this game. There's a lot there, Quinn. Right. There's a lot.
    8:41
    Yes. Yeah. Well, not to cut you off, but I just want to say, Jeff, you haven't seen anything. Roz is like a little cliff note storyboard compared to what Quinn and Steve have in store for you, especially Quinn for games to come. So anyway, so many things we're so excited about. Well, you know, thank you for saying that. That's very kind of you to say. And, you know, and honestly, that's like the dream thing you want to hear somebody say about something that you've worked on, you know. And that was something we really, really, you know, when I was, I feel when I was brought onto the company, the big question was, you know, how do you take a pinball with the very unique entertainment medium it is, you know, and how do you weave a story into there that makes people invested, you know, that makes people care? And obviously, because pinball is different than, I've worked in comics, I've worked in video games, and that's some of my background, where really you can, I mean, you have limitations, but you can basically pause the action and take as much time as you want for story beats and that kind of a thing. And pinball, obviously, is a very different sort of thing where you have, you know, the action is constantly going and you have very, you have to pick your moments of when you're going to share things that hopefully get people invested. So it's a really, I mean, it's a really cool challenge. And honestly, you know, this is a popular philosophy with design and entertainment that I totally agree with. But sometimes having limitations kind of forces you to be creative, you know, instead of saying, oh, well, we can't do this and this. So therefore it sucks. And, oh, well, you know, you say, OK, well, we can't do this and this, but we can do this. And that would be really cool. And I didn't think about that before. And so it's so it's been an awesome experience. you know and fortunately it's been very fortunately it's been a huge huge blessing to work with amazing artists you know our Utah studio everybody there and these animators that can take these ideas that we would toss around for the story and the characters and you know we'd write up sequences and say well this would be cool if this happens if we can make this happen when you do this challenge or whatever this mode and then to see them come back with the finished product and you're like oh my gosh that looks amazing and then to see it finally like fully working in the game that, you know, along with the action, if someone's playing it and sees someone laughing and enjoying it, I mean, that's one of the best feelings ever. And I want to piggyback on that and stress and emphasize what Quinn and the creative team has done is helps to make my job easier. I mean, he's providing the framework for the game and it allows me to get in and see, okay, that along with the designer's plan, what is the general flow, a game flow, that I can use my rule set to help guide the player to experience the story of this game, and yet it's still pinball. So at some point, I do have to come in and be a governor and be like, okay, this is not a pinball thing. How can we make this work for pinball because the ball is wild, and so it's not exactly like the video game where we have full control of the software. We have this random element, the pinball and the human element, that also will guide the story because no matter what story you have written, A player can just decide to shoot a ramp all day if they want to. So that has to be taken into account. However, with what Quinn has produced and what the creative team in Utah has produced and I continue to see them producing, I mean, I'm just looking forward to keep going on this journey and seeing what else we can do because the plans we have, I mean, it makes me very excited. And then going back to the video, of course, I mean, the video just makes me feel good. I mean, we were like, hey, look at us. two cool dudes is playing almost forgets me and clint you know just like looking at two people play the game yeah yeah yeah you know so like oh i hope that that looks good you know i look i mean we look pretty good in it that was a great that was uh it was a good video i liked it but yeah so we're we're i'm definitely glad to hear i'm getting messages from people some of my friends and say hey we like the video it was really cool yeah yeah we can't wait to see like a live stream i'm with voters or something like look yes i'm thinking about live streams it's in my head that That will happen, but thank you so much, and I'm humbled by your good thoughts and all that. So, yeah. Yeah. Well, I've got to throw in, too, that I think one of the things that really makes it even more – I mean, it makes it fun for me, but it makes it fun for all of us, and that's a really big part of the whole experience is the voice acting. And, of course, Jeff, you had a very direct role in some of that. For those of you out there who don't know, Jeff is the voice of the zombie announcer, who narrates a lot of the action and is a really funny character that we came up with to help narrate the whole story. And so, yeah, it was a blast working with you and reading these ridiculous jokes and lines and having them. I mean, now it's like it was funny because it was like, again, for the couple of years leading up to getting the finished animations and everything in the game, we knew that eventually the voice acting part would come into play. And so I had all these lines that I'd written, and I tried to picture in my mind, like, okay, what is this person going to sound like and this and this? And so then we got you, and then we got Caitlin Elizabeth, who's the voice of Angela, and then Billy Bob Thompson, who's the voice of Ned and the mechanic. I mean, it was just hilarious. And now it's like I can't imagine the lines sounding like the characters are so funny. And so, I mean, it's totally them, and they have such a personality. so anyway so yeah so thanks for the part you had and all that yeah it sounds correct doesn't it yeah it sounds like these need to be the characters because you know and I love talking trash to Ned and you know agreeing with the zombie and now so he says I did something good and Angela gave me the encouragement so I'm like yeah I'm into it and so and then it happened during our presentation video I forgot the cameras were there I'm just like yeah you know yeah and then you get done and you're like I really hope I didn't do something embarrassing on camera I hope I didn't do something bad. Okay.
    14:36
    Well, thank you, Quinn, but I'm going to let you in on a little secret. David Thiel makes everybody sound good. That's true. That is true. Yeah. I mean, from the voices to the little accents he adds that you know it's him, like certain increases in tone and music and sound effects that you know he did that. That helped the player. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, his music. I mean, it's just so, so good to have his long years of experience working in the industry. I mean, the music and the sound effects. And then, again, like you said, the voice, the things that he does with the voice acting. It just adds so much. So, yeah. So, I mean, again, that's just one of the things that's been such a blessing of working here at Deep Root is you work with these incredibly, incredibly talented people. And you get to see, you know, this dream that we've all worked on. You see it get to become real and just look amazing in it. And then it's fun to share it with the world as well. Stephen knows this, and other pinball players may agree as well. I think the majority do. When you're playing a pinball machine, it's hard to look up and see what's on the big screen as far as, oh, I have to do this, this, this. You don't have to worry about that. The pin bar has it all. And that, to me, when I first saw the pin bar, and I think that was the big reveal to everyone, certainly the September 6th, if you will, they got to see it firsthand, and then it was revealed on This Week in Pinball. But to see it firsthand in action at that What's Brewing? Fliptronic stream was something. And I'm like, I don't ever have to lift my head except to shoot Ned a few times. Yeah. Well, let's see. And I'll just pop in here, too. So when I came in, I came from a video game background more than a pinball background, which in a lot of ways, you know, which some of us here at the company did. And in a lot of ways, I think it's a really good thing because we don't come in with the mindset of, oh, this is what pinball is. This is what it can never be. And therefore, we're just going to keep on doing this because this is the way it's always been done before. We kind of don't know what we can't do, which, of course, then is great when people like Steve, who does know pinball inside and out, can. You know, like you said, there's those times where you can step in and say, well, actually, this is the way it would work. And this is the way that we need to keep this in mind for longtime pinball fans. But really, it's, so yeah, so when I came in, I was like, it just, the pin bar just made so much sense to me. And I'm like, and it was one of those things, again, coming in, it's kind of an outsider at the beginning. I was like, I can't believe that no one's ever done this before. This makes so much sense. And why, like for me, I was like, how am I supposed to keep track of the ball and then, you know, shoot for things purposely, aim for things purposely, when I'm also supposed to be looking up the screen that's totally at the back of the machine? And, I mean, so it just didn't make sense to me. And I'm still just amazed that no one's ever done this before. And so it's exciting. It's exciting. And the pin bar is just, again, it's so, for me, it's just so intuitive. It's just so much fun. And it just makes so much sense. It's just like, so for people that are brand new to the hobby, hopefully they'll have the same experience and be like, yeah, this totally makes sense. You know, why wouldn't you do it this way? Why haven't they been doing this way? And then they'll be surprised when they find out that we're the only ones that do that. Yeah, and as a veteran player myself, I mean, It makes it even more convenient to me to glass down. Every time that I glass down, I see how many tickets I have instantly. I know where it is, and it takes less than a fraction of a second for me to see my tickets, my playfulness, my timers, my bonus actions. It's all right there. It just makes it seem like, well, yeah, of course this needs to be here.
    17:59
    Why is it? How else can we use this screen? You know, and then, okay, when you have the what's next screen and the shot log, which I'm loving even more as we get that even better and better as a way we start to add things in there. And as the game progresses, how we'll use that feature as well. And even simple things, being able to adjust volume on the fly. I mean, that just seems like a thing I'm used to doing now that I'm going to want to do in every game now. So, like I said, me being a veteran player, it just makes it even a more integrative experience for me to play when all I have to do is really just glance Even during a multi I just glance real quick Oh that where I am Oh that mode is active Oh I have two modes active Oh, I have three. Oh, okay. I'm stacking this. Yeah, yeah. And it just seems to work in that way where it's like, well, oh, yeah, this is obvious, right? No, it isn't. It's not. But it is now. Right. Yeah, I think we could have a – sorry, sorry. I just want to say real quickly, I think we could have a whole podcast just about the development of the pin bar. Yeah, yeah. And I will say that a fraction of a fraction of a fraction of a tenth of 1% of pinball players have ever played with a pin bar. And that's almost like zero. And I think that when our games get out, their Raza and future titles, and people start playing with it, no matter how much people say they love it, we're pretty sure they're going to love it even more. And whoever thinks that they hate it, it's the worst idea ever, we know that they're going to be secretly loving it. So it definitely is a very different field. And you could take my analogy and make fun of it all you want about replacing the start button with the pin bar. But we're going to let people just for themselves. We're going to put out great opportunities to interact with the pin bar and still keep pin ball what it is, right? Bash a bunch of crap with a silver ball, right? And having fun while you're doing it. And we just think the pin bar adds to that experience rather than distracts from it. And so maybe one of these days we'll have a full, you know, podcast just about the pin bar. But I'm glad and appreciative what these two gentlemen and many others have done to make it what it is today.
    20:10
    There's a lot to cover off today, too. So I saw you on the video on DeepRootPinball.com, Robert, show some demonstrations with the pin bar. There were, I think, five different configurations you can do based on what you need. Is an old guy like me going to be able to figure out something like that? And I assume the answer is obviously yes, because you said very few of us have ever played with a pin bar. So I assume it'll be quick to understand. And you've got this arcade version, and hopefully we see Razzes in arcades everywhere, and hopefully we see arcades everywhere once coronavirus is done. But operators are going to want to know, okay, is this going to be okay touchscreen-wise? I think of my iPads, how many times I've had to replace the screens. I have no idea how to fix these things. I'm technologically an absolute idiot, you know. So if that goes, how do we start a game? How do we fix this? All these kind of questions kind of come up with the pin bar. I was just going to say that, I mean, I don't know. I could share something from my own experience if that is helpful. I know I'm biased, obviously. But I've always been kind of behind the times with technology historically. I didn't get a cell phone until like 10 years after everybody else. And then I didn't get a smartphone until a long time after everybody else. And it was one of the things I just kind of dragged my feet on. because I was like, you know, I kind of like what I just like. You know, I like the way it is. I don't really feel the need to do this new thing that everyone's doing. And then when I finally, my brother was finally like, Quinn, you need to get a smartphone. You know, you need to live in the now and do this thing. And once I got it, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm such an idiot. Why didn't I do this like five years ago? You can take pictures with your phone. I mean, it's ridiculous, but, yeah, that's how it was. And now it's just like this is so intuitive. Why did I resist this for so long? Yeah, I think, again, getting back into the development of Penbar is, you know, Had things gone very differently in September, I had about a 10-minute kind of explanation walking into why the pin bar. When the iPhone came out and was introduced by Apple, the world changed forever. You now have a touchscreen basically put together with the most important technology needs that a consumer has, and now like over half of all web traffic is mobile. You know, I can't remember what the specific statistic is on video on demand and watching videos on mobile. And so a touchscreen is now a blank canvas. And all we've done with the pinball in many ways is brought a blank canvas to the pinball machine now. And it's up to us the first time to get it right, right, is to not make it complicated, not make it counterintuitive, not take away from, you know, starting a pinball game, playing a pinball game, having fun with the pinball game. It's about supplementing what's already there with that blank canvas and making it better. And I think you'll see that as we went through the UX and UI for the pin bar, that's what we really tried to do over and over again, you know, hundreds, perhaps even thousands of different, you know, UX experiences and trying to figure out what would a pin bar user really want to see here. And it wasn't easy. We really went down a lot of rabbit holes to try to get it right. So that's why, you know, I've said before is that, you know, while, you know, anyone can stick, you know, a touchscreen somewhere on a pinball machine, can they get it right the first time? And can they then take that blank canvas and populate it with some amazing things and keep doing it over and over again and bringing each new game to life that it's on and allowing the pinball user to really interact with that machine in new ways? So absolutely. Was this the hardest thing out of everything being developed when you think of starting from scratch? Was it the pin bar? Yeah. What was the most difficult part? Well, engineering has definitely had its issues, and this year its supply chain definitely has been our nemesis and our weakness. But I would say most of the time and attention went in and around the pin bar. I'll tell you a couple of reasons why. From an engineering standpoint, it's a nightmare because every time you change anything very simple on a standard accepted pinball kind of framework and schematic, then it's like dominoes. It's like ripples in a pond, right? You start impacting everything else. And putting a touchscreen on there is not easy. There's a lot of engineering that go into how it's there, the strength, usability, replaceability. Now you're affecting positioning of a lot of things at the front of the pinball play field, you know, the apron, what's under it, you know, other electromechanical components. Now you've got to figure out, you know, when you actually service it. Now the screen becomes a big problem in where the servicing of that plate build is. I mean, it's just endless, the amount of complications that putting that ultra-wide, beautiful touchscreen there. I mean, we could have gone with the simple, you know, cheap, you know, 4x3 or, you know, a 6x9 little screen, but what we wanted is we wanted a custom, beautiful aspect ratio matched with the back bar, ultra-wide screen, that just leaves just enough to get your palms on the side so you can use those sums for what they're meant to do in Pinball, and that is use it on the pin bar. So that's the engineering, but then you go to the creative. And while there's some employees that aren't here anymore that had a lot of impact upon the early development, the problem is now you're not just filling up one screen of HD content. Now you're filling up two. And now you're just filling it two. Now you're having to make it interactive, right? And that requires, you know, game engine. It requires a lot of UX, UI thought about how things are going to be shown and impacted and seen. I can't tell you that I just can't relay how hard it was to bring the pin bar to life. And, you know, I'll give you a good example, and then I'll be quiet about it. The example is that when we decided, and it was strongly suggested that we show Rasa last year to buy some time, it took us over three months to rip the pin bar out of the platform just to show a regular machine in November. I mean, literally. It's not just like you just build the Williams Valley version of Rasa. It took us three and a half months to rip the pin bar out of the code, out of the graphics, out of the rule set, out of the machine. It was not the best idea in the world, but it is what it is at this point. We did it, and it worked, and it was good to see people play it and figure it out and actually have fun with the game and have them spend some time in an arcade atmosphere and people were figuring out the rule set and going through at least a bit of the story and seeing some of the modes, albeit randomly, because the pin bar wasn't there, so there was no selection, although some of the modes happened, which is part of the code excisement that Robert just talked about. You know, when you go into the shop, you've got to vote, as opposed to you select one now, like you're supposed to. Yeah, you get tickets, and then you go into the Atomic shop, and then you pick the mode you want. Right. Whereas in Houston, you would get tickets, and you had to have enough to afford a mode that we would give you. Yeah. So that's why you had to have 25 before you learned that. Yeah. Now you've got 25 and you choose what you want. And oh, by the way, you can buy something else too, which wasn't then. That part was totally completely. Yeah, yeah. But now it's like, okay, you can buy this move. But also I think I want to buy my MagnaSafe again because I used it like I did on the video. That was very fortunate. That was a fortunate thing. Fortunate happenstance in the video where I happened to use my MagnaSafe and the shop happened to give it back. Oh, that's awesome. Thank you very much. I'll take my magazine back. So we're hoping for some pinball moments like that for people to experience that we will appreciate. Well, I just want to end that by saying is that, you know, if we were to do it over again, we probably still would have done something like the November last year. But because there was a lot of good that came out, we saw how people reacted to the rule set, to the upgraded, you know, narrative and play field layout. And we got to test a lot of our underneath the play field componentry and circuitry, electronics and stuff. So while it was still good, I think that the price we paid for taking three and a half months or more, almost four months, maybe talk about a couple weeks after that, past Thanksgiving, to take the pin bar out and having to go back to restart again with the pin bar and continue where we left off, that was a tough four to five months that we lost there. So anyway, there was a lot of good that came from it, but it did cost us four months to do that. But it made you go back to the drawing board. You just mentioned there were some play field adjustments as well, too. Do you want to describe what's happened there on the play field? Yeah, there's a lot of things, very intricate things on the play field that have been changed. I know a lot of people see pictures and think that they're experts on what they see and what they're comparing. And I can tell you is that we were here watching it. And there were many iterations, not only the placement, the very fine-tuning and placement of components, We decided, even though Steve had some great rule sets for a failed Jetstar ramp shot, we went back and we made it easier because it is a neat, satisfying shot. It's the only ramp in the game. We wanted to make it usable, but we also wanted to make the rule set around it. Right. And so once we decided to make the ramp just about 90% to 95% shot now, So it was pretty academic to change the rules a bit to make it more.
    29:34
    And plus, now that we have the pin bar, certain things that that fail chat did are now more available to the player. I won't reveal it here, but once you get to play it, I mean, once you see it on a couple more videos, which I'm sure will be coming out soon, you'll understand why. And the password is play field X. Okay? So, I mean, that's what you discovered, Jeff, when you were playing there and you did it right. and I saw you do it right and I couldn't help myself. I was trying not to coach anyone. And I'm saying, oh, he's doing it right. He figured it out. Oh, my God. You know, I'm just so happy that somebody did it right. You know, that with now with the Atomic Shop and the pin bar and the tickets, now there's going to be some extra strategy on how you want to play for the X. Or maybe you don't. Maybe you want to save money for something else. But, again, that's some meta stuff that we won't get into now. We'll let the people discover it. Yeah, yeah. We've lost a bunch of people right now. What happened in Houston was you'd start zombie multi-ball, and you'd go up the ramp, but not all the way, and it would fall down and hit these multipliers, and then all of a sudden your play field was multiplied. So that was what I was realizing. I want to get this going up and up and up, but not all the way. Fall down, hit the multipliers. And so now you're saying it's a lot different with the access of Atomic Shop, tickets, and who knows what else is in there. Right. Yeah. A lot of personal strategy and preferences in there on how you like to play the game. So, OK, tell me about pin access. Let me take that. Yeah, you can. All right. I'm looking forward to this.
    31:05
    So, again, a lot has been left out of translation by by missing out on some of the things that we were planning in September. And one of the things we really wanted to talk about is scoring, because I think there's a lot of problems when you look at scoring. Right. Like my creature from the Black Lagoon in my house plays completely different than the one in Utah. Right. You have the same titles that play differently. And what's the score? Right. You get three billion on Attack from Mars and it's, you know, it's an OK score. But, you know, you can barely get, you know, 100 to 200,000 on loss. How do you compare those two titles and those two scores to how you did? You're constantly have to ask or looking or knowing where your score is. And so what we wanted to try to do was reinvent how pinball enthusiasts look at scoring. And so there's really three components to the score, right? The condition of the machine, the shot log, which, you know, we're already, you know, capturing all of that, and the rule set, right? And so by doing, by taking those three components and looking at the score, What we want to try to do with the PEN Access app and the PENaccess.com and the leaderboards and stuff as we start building it out and people playing Raza and having their scores uploaded is to be able to get really down to a granular look. Hey, look, a 50,000 score on Raza, which is a pretty good score at location A, is a very different type of gameplay than a 50,000 score played at location B. And by going in there and looking at the shot log and who it was, you're really able to see not only which one's better, but, you know, if I want to get $50,000 myself on a regular basis, I can go in and look at, hey, he bounded this, this, and this, and look how he went from zero to $25,000 in about two minutes, and I can't even hit $25,000 with three balls, right? Those types of things allow us to start comparing and competing and challenging not only each other but ourselves. And those foundational things we have with the pin bar and how we view scoring and the pin access app and the PIN Access community, it's not going to happen overnight, but over time in a year, two, three years, you're going to start seeing that build out and you're going to start seeing a lot of interest and a lot of excitement over how we're taking scoring and implementing it from the very core levels of the machine and letting people do that. There's one other part of the PIN Access app, and that is the ability, even if the machine is not connected to the Internet, anywhere in the world, to not only download and load your profiles for that machine, like with Rasa. Let's say with Rasa, I like the shot log, but I don't like the what's next cards anymore, right, because I don't need them. So your profile, when you log in, can automatically bring that screen up ready the way you like to play that Rasa. And then when you log in, you scan your code, it brings up all that information. You play your game. You save it. Even if the machine doesn't have Internet, it will save back through your phone, back to the DeepRoot servers, and you can retain an honest representation. I mean, this isn't like, you know, golf where you have, you know, it's an honor system. We all know sandbaggers, right? Sandbaggers, mulligans, yes, yes. And even in a more elementary, basic way, when I hit that big bonus collect shot at 9X, it is gratifying to scroll back in my shot log and see 9X put 34,000 points. I was like, yes, I did that right. So, I mean, I'm looking forward to seeing that for people. I mean, yes, I did it right here. This is why I got that score. See, yes, you know what? Yes, I did. That's why. Yeah, so instead of like on-location situations, right, now you can share those achievements with the world, social media and all different types of ways. And so what we've created here is just a starting point, a platform that we're going to continue to keep building and building to allow people to interact with each other in ways that people normally do with video games and especially mobile games. There's a lot to cover. I'm trying to get to as much as possible here, and I appreciate the time from everyone here at Deep Root Pinball. The lift glass frame, that is something. The pillow lock, the shock absorbent. What was the decision for doing that? Well, I think that I only put two videos from the September launch date. I put the pin pod one, which is the first thing we really actually shot. But I also put my talk about no-good gophers. And if you really want to know why Deep Root was started and the vision, that we're trying to solve and the things that we did solve is going back and looking at that, I think it's a 20-minute video where I go over no-good gophers. I didn't go over everything, but what you're talking about there is one of the things I really cover in there is why do we still have pull-out glass in 2020? And I can tell you the engineers, it's taken a lot of iterations, but the engineers have done an amazing amount of work on that glass lift, not only to secure it, to sound dampen it, but just the feel of it is just top notch. I know some people are joking about guillotine, and I tell you, every time you use and pick up and move that glass lift, it's anything but guillotine. It's almost like dealing with the Ferrari or Porsche of any sort of lift hood, right? It's really a nice feel. It's safe. It's easy and convenient. It makes stuck balls really easy to get out.
    36:31
    It's like the occasional one happens. It's like, oh, okay, pop it up. Thank you. Put it down. Okay, I'm ready. That was one of the things, too, again, where I came in not knowing, not being a longtime pinball expert or player, and it was just one of those things where they're like, oh, the ball on this old machine got stuck. Let's take off the lock bar and remove this sheet of glass and lean it against something. And I'm like, this is how it's still. I'm like, why is this still a thing? I mean this is the way it was 25 years ago Why is this still a thing when it just is so I mean it like let take out this sheet of glass and lean it against something What could go wrong you know And floors legs feet I mentioned a couple of those examples Straight up shattering. Yeah. And so I'm, so anyway, so yeah. So now it's like, for me, it's like, it's like with the pin bar. It's like, it feels so natural to just pop it open and then you close it when you're done and it's all good, you know, and you're back to playing. On the website, we're seeing a lot of information that we haven't seen before. The biggest, of course, is you can buy the game now, and you can kind of build your own game. It's not like Build-A-Bear, but you certainly can add things as people would to their machines, but these are going to be done at the source when you get your game. Talk about some of the different features that you can add to your game, whether it be the arcade or the extra version. So, look, customization is a unique but complicated thing, right? It's unique in offering it because it usually is something that customers want, but it's very complicated from behind the scenes to be able to deal with all those skews, right, and customizations. So what we wanted to do on our budget version is really get the price down to be very competitive, and we think that where it should be for people to come in and be at an entry-level pinball experience. But we also wanted to allow the customizations there for power players who want to spend a little less but only want certain things on their machine but not others, right? So for Raza, we decided to go from three to two editions in the last two or so months, not only to simplify for the consumer, but also I think for Raza, it gives us a good idea about where sales are going to come down to give us an idea of what we're going to do with future games. So the arcade or budget, I really don't want to call it budget because I still think the arcade, the base arcade, probably has more economic value in it than a $15,000 limited edition Elvira, right, at $15,000. You know, so, you know, that's our personal opinion. But I think if you look at it and if you especially if you looked at the bomb and how much value we're putting in there for the price, I think that that's what we tried to get to over and over again is value. Right. And I think it's important to stress that the game plays the same. OK, just want to make sure that that isn't obvious. The game plays the same. Raza plays the same no matter which one you get. So I just want to make sure that's that's all there. Thank you, Steve. It is important that we're – look, we don't want to have ten different codes for each different – you know, ten different editions. We want someone to have a great experience no matter what edition they're playing. So when it comes to customization, like for the arcade, yeah, you can add some purple trim or coin door. You can upgrade to the neon, you know, and install neon rings. You can upgrade the toy package. You can get AR glass. You can, you know, do the support. You can do the warranty and stuff like that. That way it allows the person, if they just want to spend the least amount just to get a Raza game, great. If they want to add some of the extras, then great. And we wanted to try to be reasonable with all the prices for, you know, not only the parts, but also the installation here to add all those and the customization and the queue, et cetera. But then you have the extra, and the extra basically has all of the bling on it already, and it has what I consider, my design, the aesthetically pleasing kind of column and floating back bar with the screen and speakers, which I can tell you for me is that sometimes I forget to look down. I still have the habit of looking up, and I can tell you that it's much easier to focus on that back bar screen in the floating back bar design versus the more traditional back locks. I don't know why. It's just easier because you have that space and it feels lighter. but it still looks the same in a line of pinball machines. So that's what we were trying to go for and to give users whatever experience they really wanted when they were going through which rosters do I want to have in my home. You said the games are going to play the same no matter which version you get. All the add-ons, the customization, those are things like pinbar, screen protector, shaker motors, toppers, of course the warranty package. I would assume that those have to be purchased at the time of purchase and can't be purchased later on. Obviously, warranty wouldn't, but the other ones too. Do you have to make that decision when you first buy? Yeah, so the only differences there are going to be that the extra is going to have a shaking net. I believe both of them have the lead lights, but the shaking net will only be on the extra, and the extra will come with a custom topper. That custom topper has been put to the bottom of the priority list just with everything else, but it will come back. I know with other manufacturers it's no different. It seems to be the bottom. So we have a simple topper that we've shown off with the three lights. It's still a great topper, but the mechanized topper that we plan to add and provide the extra purchasers, we hope will be out sometime early next year, probably will ship toward the end of the games, et cetera, and it's going to be a nice, very, very beautiful, nice add-on at no charge for those who buy the extra. People who buy the arcade will not be able to get the mechanized topper, at least from us. I'm sure there will be some aftermarket, you know, sales and stuff like that. And, you know, what I really want to point out is we spend a lot of time trying to get the toppers right, and that is, you know, having the plug and play drop in all the data, all the electrical, all the electricity is right there, you know, basically pop it in, retain it, and you're good to go. And, you know, it is one of those things you don't have to do anything else with our toppers, and that's an added benefit for a fraction of the price that you'd find a topper elsewhere. Quinn and Steven, I'm wondering about what we've heard about DeepRoot with the downloadable content. How does that work? Does that change code? What are we talking about with downloadable content? Well, it's going to depend on more features that we get and more things that I'm able to add into the game. So, like, just think about it this way. I mean, with Raza, I have my rules set in. That's being built in. But what if I got another bite at the apple? Yeah. From scratch. What would happen? Now, not to say that I haven't already thought about that bite of that apple already, you know, just for time's sake. But so given what you're going to see in the Raza rules set up to this point and continuing with this version, let's just call it version A for giggles, right? what if there was a version B, which changed the entire game? But you used the same play field, but changed the entire thing. And I'm not talking about like a director's cut. Like director A came in, and then he went away and had his movie, and then director B came in. A completely different one came in. He was the same guy as me. But if you split me into two different styles, and two different style rule set people came in and took a play field and try to do something with it. That's something that could be offered in addition, you know, as downloadable content for Rasa. So you already have your Rasa. But now you're like, okay, let's download version B. Oh, and now I want to go back to version A. And now I go back to version B. I just download it. So version B is not a code update. It is, in fact, a different product. It's a completely different update. So now that we have the pin bar, we can basically have 1,000 different game code versions. And when I say version, not version of the same code, but version as in a brand new rule set and how to play Raza. Okay, I'll just give a sentence of it. Just to give you an idea. Okay, in Raza, you've seen the video, how easy it is to spell zombie, right? You hit Ned, you get a letter. Well, what if the letters were a little bit harder to get? What if the letters were the focus on how to get to the wizard mode and flip the entire script? That's all I'll say. That's enough. Okay. I mean, you can have, like, you know, time to get certain things. It could be a linear progression instead of, you know, more of a random.
    45:19
    You could do a challenge. You could have, you know, people could download the latest challenge from Steve, get to 25,000 in less than three minutes. You have his progress on the same pin bar that you see yours, and you have to keep up with him. And those types of things, you know, it's almost like, you know, multiplayer, remote multiplayer and stuff like that, but on your own machine, right? Right. And you're playing against the best. And so the great thing about the shot log is not only can we do that with Steve, we can take anyone's shot log and you can play against it. And those types of things as downloadable content add to the experience and doesn't take away from the traditional things that you normally would see on a pinball machine and code updates. That we want to make sure that is included in the purchase price. But the extra stuff, the fun stuff, the new stuff that you can do, that's when we're talking about access to that. And the great thing is, you know, I know DLC is a taboo word in pinball, but it's used very effectively in a lot of different, you know, other gaming contexts. And we're very aware that we, just like we give value with our machines, we want to give value with the DLC. If you don't want the DLC, you don't have to pay for it. But if you want those extra features, it's not just going to be per game. It's going to be in all the Deep Root games. So, again, as we move into next year and we get through Raza and we get to the next games and stuff, we want to continue to build the compendium of opportunities to really get more content. And we're very much cognizant of that when we come out with pricing and the terms of any DLC subscription model. Okay. Is the subscription based on one game or multiple games? All deeper games. Okay. So the more games that come down the line, the more attractive it gets? Absolutely, yeah. Okay. A few times you've mentioned changes that have happened over, whether it be the years or the months. In September, and I probably would have been a part of it too, if the borders were open for one thing, you invited a bunch of the pinball media to come down and see what happened there. There was a delay, and then the next day on This Week in Pinball, kind of a big deep dive reveal of not just this game but many games. In fact, there are 14 different games on deeperpinball.com. Now that we're seeing all this, can you talk more about what happened in September and the reason for the delay at that point? The problem this year has been, as a new manufacturer, a lot of our vendors dropped off the list when the pandemic hit. They had their own problems, see their lockdowns. So getting new vendors takes forever, takes months. Looking at the quality, looking at, you know, orders, seeing what their lead times are going to be, and to go through that process. Now, when you have hundreds of parts, perhaps even a thousand parts or more, you know, with Rasa, and you're having to deal with vendors for all of those parts, it starts compounding, especially as a new manufacturer with new relationships. And when vendors feel pressure, they typically go to what they know in their core business and what they can earn. And definitely getting a new manufacturer to do a bunch of quotes for them when there's no money involved in that yet, there's no orders yet, definitely is very difficult to go through that. So essentially that led up to September where a lot of orders didn't come in on time. Our lighting panels came the Monday after, you know, that we special ordered for the extra that everyone can now see. It's pretty amazing. It's very striking. And so you just had a compounding of things there. You had a compounding of mistakes because we were rushing to get everything done. And so, you know, when the six were here and we were continuing to have, you know, just things that were working, bad boards, things that were rushed and were hooked up the wrong way and having to go back and re-hook them up. We finally got it working later that day, but it just wasn't what we wanted. And so we decided, you know, after a lot of thought to, you know, look at the silver lining for what we had and then go back to the drawing board and really focus on what needed to be updated for the suggestions we got. So it ended up being a beta event versus the launch event that we wanted. That could have been an ending scenario for a lot of companies. We're very grateful that the team here came together. And we've had, you know, a massive amount of coming together and moving forward the engineering and the creative design of this game over the last two, two and a half months. We wanted to show it off at West Bruin. Yeah. I want more people to see this game in play. I almost get too happy. So I'm just looking forward to getting it out there, which is kind of what the West Bruin event was. And so glad to see that, you know, when Fluke Tronic came in and they were excited to stream it and enthusiastic. And the players coming in from San Antonio area. And especially with the pandemic, you know, haven't seen a few of them in a while. And so just having them come down and everything's all protected. And, you know, we got people posted at the door and controlled sign-ups and all the precautions taken. And finally, hey, let's play pinball. Hey, how you doing? Hey, oh, by the way, here's something we've been working on. Oh, it's awesome. Oh, this is fantastic. Oh, look at this. What is these side panels?
    50:43
    Yeah, I know. Check out the game. All right. What do you think about the display? And I start, you know, peppering them with questions, you know, just to try to get my little data and things that I can work on from my end. And so, yeah, it's pinballers will persevere, and so will we. Yeah. Well, and I hope I don't embarrass Robert by this, but one of the things that I just really, really respect him and admire him for, and one of the things that makes it such a great blessing to be here is that he will not quit. You know, there are going to be challenges, and everyone's had challenges, but rather than throwing in the towel or getting mad and blaming other people or whatever, he is always like, these are the things that we learned from this. Yes, there were some setbacks that we didn't, you know, that it would have been nice not to have, but this is the reality. It is what it is, and we're going to move forward because this is important. This is a passion that's worth investing in. And I think that philosophy is what has made us get to where we are. It has gotten us to where we are, which is fantastic.
    51:48
    Yeah, yeah. I mean, anyway, so I have all the respect in the world for him. And, yeah, it's exciting to follow him down this adventure. Yeah, I can tell you that September was a low for a lot of us. we've all been through a lot of ups and downs personal and as a part of the team throughout this process we're all human we all we bleed pinball when we come to work we all have lives outside of pinball and sometimes it's hard taking home the stress and the realities of what we do and the setbacks that we have and thank you Quinn and Steve for all the kind words but at the end of the day I can wish for the moon the stars or whatever, but I'm not the one who actually makes it happen. These guys make it happen. And I can tell you that over and over again, the passion that everyone has here at Deep Root to make things happen when it looks like everything's about to end, it makes this team special. And I think that you're seeing with Raza now, I think you're seeing that. I mean, this morning, we were supposed to have the site up ready to go for orders, you know, at 10 a.m. And we thought we had all the bugs out of the IT system. and, you know, just a couple extra ones, and you know what? Instead of blowing up and getting mad at people, it was like, okay, let's take it off with the message and let's get it right and make sure that people can, you know, come on and get done what they need to get done or they can get the order safely and securely and enjoy Raza. And that's what we did. And, you know, we're still going to have setbacks tomorrow and the day after and the day after, and we keep rising to the challenge, and we're going to keep doing that because at the end of the day, there's a bunch of people that's going to hand over a lot of hard-earned money for our beautiful pinball machines that we spend a lot of time and effort making as fun and as innovative as we can, and we owe it to them to make sure that we can get them a fun, quality pinball machine as quick as possible. And we're finally to the point of going from R&D to an actual real manufacturing company. We're excited. Yeah, that's awesome. It is a big purchase for anybody for sure. And I know when I have a big purchase, maybe it's a computer, maybe it's a car or something to that effect. I have a lot of questions and I'm sure a lot of the consumers do. They're going to listen to this podcast. Hopefully, they get some of the answers. And you've certainly given some explanations to why we got to where we are and the development that's happened over a short time since September and even I think March actually, if I think about it, TPF was kind of going to be a launch too because a bunch of us media were going to come down there. But as the pandemic continues, and you mentioned about some of the supply issues, there have been issues. But I do want to point out that when we saw the stream, when we saw the deep dive on this week in pinball, there were a lot of positive comments about, oh, look at that, and things like the pin bar and the lift glass frames and certainly the creation of that beautiful display. The cabinet is just something to look at. I'm quite impressed. There's so many positive things, too. when you see all the feedback and when you hear the podcasters or people talk about it do you focus in on the positives or what stands out do you hear the negatives and go okay okay i'm hearing it or people have got it right or they've got it wrong or what are you thinking at that point when you hear people talk about deep root that may not know the ins and outs i just think in general it's and i think that that's another thing that's just so it's so rewarding to have the attitude here that we have, and it's that, you know, that you'd be a fool to ignore every criticism or every suggestion I guess And that another thing that we had here is that Robert would take you know we smart We don listen to every complaint that every person has who speculates about one thing or the other But we do say okay these people made some really valid points. Let's take a look at this. What is feasible? What would make the most sense? And what are the things that they're right? Yeah, this needs to be improved here. You know what? And I think too, we actually were talking about this a little bit earlier. You have to keep in mind that people are generally good, but often they allow their negativity to be expressed a lot online. And you can't just listen to the negativity. You have to be like, well, they're free to share what they want to say, but we're going to just make the best thing we can and let it speak for itself. So we take everything as a learning experience. We take a look at everything to say, what can we learn from this? Yes, what are the good positives that we can, or the good things that we can rethink about that would make it better based on this feedback? But, you know, the rest of it is like, let's show them we have something great and let it speak for itself. And I just personally, I can't wait for the criticism. I'm looking forward to the criticism. I mean, there's nothing really anything, there's nothing really anything good to say tonight to affect me at this point now. I mean, I'm looking forward to constructive criticism, and I stress constructive, but, I mean, part of the process as I was, you know, learning myself how, you know, rule sets, you know, go into games and how learning best practices and integrating my own best practices into the games is, you know, I'm knowing that as I'm going through this, that I'm not 100% right, because that would be like winning the lottery. So, I can't wait to be proven wrong so I can fix it. Because there's no way I'm right. Like, it's impossible, right? It would be like winning multiple lotteries in a row. And that sort of expands to the rest of the game. But just to keep that philosophy in mind, staying humble, but staying focused and staying encouraged, and then we've got to this point. I mean, looking at this point, I'm saying, look at how much is working right in the game, how much of my role set is making sense, how much of the storyboard makes sense, and how much of the graphics and the animation is fun, and I can't wait to play it right now. You know, like I'm sitting here doing the interview, and I want to play the game, quite honestly. That's just not me saying this because I work here and I'm biased. I want people to buy it. No, I want to play the game. I agree.
    57:57
    I'm dying to play that game. Trust me, I was happy playing it a year ago when it was a prototype. It is nothing like that now. There's so much more with the pin bar. But I've gone online, and I've talked to a bunch of podcasters and some other people, certainly when Deep Root Pinball was launched, and there are common questions people want to know. And the biggest one, of course, is, okay, if I put my money down on this game, when will I get it? What's the pecking order here? Yeah, absolutely. So we've tried to be very transparent. I always respected how Charlie in Over at Spooky was very clear, hey, look, I'm going to make these games, and it's going to be a while before some of you are going to be able to get them, right? And I've always respected that rather than trying to make people guess or play games. You know, I am shipping international before domestic or I'm not going to do, you know, this real expensive version until the very end and make people are paying the most weight. I mean, all those things that happen. So we tried to do in our store and order policy is create a very transparent understanding between us and the consumer about what to expect. Right. And that's very simple that the first four to six weeks here, especially during the holiday season, especially with covid, you know, ramping up across the country, including here in Texas. and supply, there's still some very key elements that we're having the biggest time ever trying to get them in as quick as we want them to for prices that we can keep in our price bomb. So all of those things are stressors that we have. Most importantly, we want to start slow because we want to make sure that as these games get out and things are found, we can make quick tweaks to the line before too many get out there. I mean, it would have been a business-ending decision to make a bunch of games and ship them out there and then having PR issues, having customer service issues, RMAs, trying to replace massive parts of the game that could have simply been addressed on the line as it's slowly getting up. So we have four phases, and the four phases, basically, the first phase being four to six weeks to try to build up slowly, try to make sure that what we have going on the line is done. We have electricity on the lines. We have parts down there. There's nothing that we're worried about as far as, you know, getting these machines done right the first time. We have quite a few rods in the building here. We have development machines. We have, you know, the pre-production machines. We have the ones that we showed at what's brewing. So we're making sure that those machines, as they leave, are QA quality and that they've been looked over a thousand times, especially the first ones going out here, to make sure that they are the way that we want them when they leave here and the way that we want them to be unboxed when they get to the consumer. In phases two through four, we get to ramping up production when we start solidifying and getting those processes under our belt, and then the fourth one being the rest of the games. And most of our international CE certification is all backed up in the labs that we're trying to get into 4C certification here. Sorry, Robert, I don't understand what that is, and I'm playing ignorant here. I have no idea what you mean when you talk about certification or UL testing or anything like that. Yeah, so especially the European Union, which we expect quite a few orders to come from, and to some extent other countries, I believe Australia not only has some version of CE, but also I believe SAA, if I could be wrong on that. So each of these countries or the European and union have their own requirements for any electrical device being sold there, have to pass certain certifications. For instance, with the pin bar, especially the way it is, there's going to be a spill test. And so these are sort of things along with UL but also with CE, the types of parts that were being used, leakage from power supply to the play field and stuff like that and different components. All of these things go into that certification. The UL one is pretty straightforward. The CE one is more difficult because each country in the EU and other countries around the world have typically, even if they use CE, have their own punch list. And so what you typically do is you go to the most restrictive punch list, and you get that done, and then everyone else falls in line. The problem is getting that type of restrictive punch list done for CE is a little different to go through the testing. So it's going to take longer to get that done before we can ship overseas. So that's why international orders will be in that fourth phase. So our hope is, you know, whether we sell, you know, 100 rosters or we sell a couple hundred rosters, right, we want to make sure that we get done in about a three- to four-month period, which I think is very standard in pinball, especially right now. And it's very common to see a four- to six-week lead-up time before the first games really start getting out there in mass quantity with orders. I know it's been a little different with some of the manufacturers recently, but traditionally, it's pretty normal. And so what we want to do is we'll hit that normal, get it right the first time, and not have the quality or PR issues that could definitely be there with the first product from a new manufacturing company. I don't know how you do it. I see somebody build a homebrew game, and I'm like, wow, how did you do that from scratch? Riot Pinball did Legends of Valhalla, Stephen. Or, Quentin, you've seen those? I mean, just beautiful games. I'm like, you made six of those? Now we're seeing several games, and there is this window, I've noticed on the website, that you can book this game, you can preorder this game right now, but only until the end of the year. Does that mean at the end of the year you can't buy this? Correct, yes. So I've talked before about limiting Raza to numbers, and I know I've said before that we don't want to make more than 500 Razas. or RASs. And so we eventually decided to do is instead of limiting it by number, even though the extra is limited because it's a limited number run to 300, is I did not want to limit the number of RASs that were made. I'd rather just limit it to a time period. And during that time period, it gives us a good idea as we're going back and getting replacement orders to have a better idea about how many RASs that we're actually going to be making. So it's also a business decision in doing that, in trying to make sure that the value that we're trying to provide is a good business decision. Even though this isn't a license and you could go back theoretically and make more of these games if the demand is there? We have 20-plus games, Jeff. You're killing it. We have 20-plus games that we're ready to pop out in the world. If we ever make Raza again, I would be completely surprised. Okay. So Raza is a great game. We love it. We spent years on it. I mean, years pouring our blood, sweat, and tears into it. We can't wait for people to have one in their home. And our goal is to make it the best it can be. But with a lot of other very equally great games coming, you know, we can't just sit there and make Raza's all 2021.
    64:51
    There's a lot of people who want to see some of these other titles, and I'm not going to mention names. Right. I've got other rule sets. Other real sets, other experiences with the pin bar that we have, and with mechs on the play field and interacting with the ball, and we want to get to them. Okay, so there it is. You've got this three-week window to purchase this game until the end of the year, and then that's it because more titles will be coming from Deep Root. This is the first time we've seen the request for money down. 10%, I believe, on the arcade edition, 20% on the extra, correct? Correct, yeah. Okay. Yeah, Rod says that we talked about it. It's a limited run, and they're buying a custom unit, whether it's the extra or whether it's the arcade, in a limited run. And, you know, the customer should have a piece of the action. They're buying something very special from us and probably a lot less than we could potentially sell it. And so it's one of those things that we know that people who want to support and really have the DeepRoot vision and play it and own it and have that total ownership experience, yeah, it makes a lot of sense. And, again, it's not very different than what you see in other industries. It's not very different than what many other manufacturers have done here in pinball. This is done exclusively through DeepRoot pinball and not through distributors? There are some distributors. We are trying out with a couple distributors. You know, I think the list was originally 40 to 50. And I think that, you know, at the end of the day, you know, probably, you know, about a quarter to half of those we might see some sales from. But we wanted to kind of see, you know, with Raza, you know, what works with direct and how is that experience and how do customers feel about it versus many customers that would probably not buy direct because they want to go with their local distributor that can help service them maybe a little bit more personally than we can by, like, you know, a phone call or video conference or email or text. And so we understand that around the world, different consumers have different, you know, different visions of their buying and ownership experience. So we want to kind of see how that works, both domestically here in the U.S. and Canada, and then as well as around the world. I know I've said several times on this podcast, other podcasts, Stephen has heard me say it over the years, let Deep Root do what they have to do, and when they release it, that's great. They haven't asked me for one dime since they began. So I have no vested interest in when they come out, other than I'm excited to see a new game come out. I haven't put my money into this company. Now, when we put money down, people are going to be, okay, they're going to be looking at their watch, as they would with any company. I'm sure you can appreciate that. So do you have a number of how many games are going to be made per week kind of thing? or I guess is that part of the reason for the pre-order to kind of see how many parts you have to buy and this and that? Well, look, a lot of parts are already bought. We have some of our parts we have for hundreds of machines or even some parts thousands of machines, and some parts are going to be very specific to Rasa that are not going to be on the platform that you'll be seeing in another game. So our inventory is all over the place, especially after three and a half years of R&Ding and stuff. is that, believe me, a lot of money has been spent on inventory that somewhere around this building, most of the expensive stuff on the lockers down there and stuff like that. I don't look at this as a preorder. I mean, deposits are very normal. I mean, I think people have very short memories about how Stern and JGP, American Pinball, Spooky, have all been doing their policies. So they're storing and ordering policies over the years. And, you know, deeper it's no different. We're a new manufacturer. We've spent a lot of time and energy and money without asking money from anyone. We've spent a lot of money and helped out Zidware customers, and we've still got a couple left to make whole and stuff like that. So we've done more than any other manufacturer, I believe, coming out of the gate strong with our first product. And if people want to complain about that, then I'm more than happy to let them do it, and we're going to do what we do best here. We're going to make great games and fun experiences. We're going to pop these RASAs off the line according to the very transparent store and ordering policies that we have on our website. And, you know, people say, well, miss the last 10 things you said you were going to do. Then, you know, I'm sad that they're going to miss out on a RASA. And, you know, that's that's the best way I can put it. I like the gentleman here. Don't try not to let the very negative people in pinball try to affect my decisions. But at the end of the day, I'm running a business. I'm going to make good business decisions for my business, and I believe that customers who are fair and want to purchase a great product and have value for the money they've spent, they're going to come to DeepRoot.
    69:51
    Some will come very quickly, and some might take a game or two, but I think right now, believe me, with the things that people in pinball throw their money at without seeing or touching or even knowing it, even if it doesn't exist, I think Deep Root and their first launch here with Raza is the least of anyone's concerns. All right. Well, Stephen, Quinn, Robert, I appreciate you coming on and, again, giving me this opportunity to find out more information about Deep Root Pinball and certainly Raza and how to purchase this game, what you're going to get, when you're going to get it, all those kind of good things. The innovations are incredible. I've talked about the animations. The voice is okay. But, no, I'm just kidding. I'm kidding. They're so soothing. The voice is awesome. It's something to see. I can hardly wait to get my hands on it. Hopefully, we've provided some information for people, and there's still going to be questions, especially when it's a new company. Yeah. Two years ago at Pinball Expo, I said, get ready. That was more for me than anyone else because of how nervous I felt being on the same stage as all those pinball luminaries that were there. All those games sold and games designed. And here I am with nothing out there, just hopefully representing as well as I could. But now we're here. Yeah. We're here.
    71:11
    And I can't wait for you all to play Raza. I'm so looking forward to as many people as possible playing Raza and then also playing the next game and seeing where we move from here. Yeah. Well, I got to say, too, that I know there's been some commentary on the large number of titles that we've revealed. and I'm just crazy excited, so, so excited. We know all the stuff that's going on behind the scenes and people out there don't know yet and I can just say it's going to be really exciting, really, really exciting. There's some incredible stuff coming your way and I think it's going to blow a lot of minds. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you, Jeff, for having us on and we appreciate your questions and the opportunity to share a little bit about our passion for Raza. And, you know, I know that Raza is, well, it's the first, you know, game on the DeepRoot platform. It's a special game because we've spent more time on Raza than we probably will ever spend on any other game coming out, with the exception of maybe one that I have in mind. And that means Raza has had a lot of love and care and tender care and a lot of attention to making sure that's the best game it could be. And we're very appreciative for the team here. We're appreciative for all those who support us and put a rose on their house and can see why we have so much passion for this game. So thank you very much. Yeah, thanks. Thank you. And I want to say one more thing too, because this is the first time we've actually talked in almost a year. I want to say thank you for the deep root sponsorships of several pinball things. A couple of years ago at TPF, the Wizards Championship, and the good prizing that went along with that, you supported great organizations like This Week in Pinball. I'm forgetting many, but personally, The Pinball Profile World Tour that I was able to do a year ago wouldn't have been possible without yourself. And, you know, there were seven sponsors that came on board. And I just wanted to thank you for everything that Deep Brew did for that. Yeah, yeah, no problem. I mean, it's one of those things. We want to be part of the community. We want to be good participants. And, you know, make sure that pinball continues to grow. And we support, you know, great efforts like yours to get pinball out there and to have great discussions and to get people more enthused about pinball. Best of luck. Happy holidays. And thank you very much for joining us today. Happy holidays. Thank you, Jim. Bye-bye. You can find out more on DeepRootPinball.com. This has been your Pinball Profile. Go to PinballProfile.com for subscriptions, past episodes, and more. We're on Twitter and Instagram at Pinball Profile. You can email us, PinballProfile at gmail.com. I'm Jeff Teolis.
    73:54
    stole the thanx you