it's time for another pinball profile i'm your host jeff teolis you can find everything on pinballprofile.com we've got a great facebook group as well we're on twitter x instagram at pinball profile you can email pinball profile at gmail.com if you'd like to show your support on patreon that would be wonderful don't worry the show will always be free but your kind support keeps us going and helps offset any costs. I appreciate that. So big thanks to Lua W., to Jake C., to John L., Albert A., and more. Last weekend, the 40th anniversary of Pinball Expo. Congratulations to Rob, Burke, and family and all the staff that put on a wonderful event. Over 100 vendors. There was so much going on. The seminars. In fact, two different rooms. And I am now going back because you can only do so much when you're at Expo. I'm watching the great videos that Martin Ayub of Pinball News, which he's been doing for years. Martin, you're a legend. He's posted many of these seminars, so thanks again. And I encourage you to watch them as well. There's just so much going on. A huge free play area room with like five Hankin games and some great Zachariah games, some Spanish games, just things you didn't see. Oh, thank you so much for doing that. It was an absolute delight to play some of these rare games that I have never even seen before. That was a big spare room. Of course, there was the tournament area. I went in the tournament area, didn't play in any tournament, just didn't have time to do that. Sometimes at tournaments you get handcuffed and that's all you're doing. And last year I decided, you know what, no more Expo tournament for me. It's still extremely popular, but I just wanted to see everything else and still didn't see everything else. But I did arrive Wednesday. I played in the Stern Pro Circuit, had to draw Zach Sharp from Stern on Stern Machines. How do you think that went? I actually won a game. We both did terrible on Foo Fighters. I did just slightly less worse. But Zach went on and then won a few more rounds too. So congratulations, by the way. Jared August of Michigan. What a nice guy. He beat Eric Stone in the finals to win his first Stern and Box pinball machine. So congratulations on that, Jared. Well deserved. So that was Wednesday. And then shortly after that, I went to the American Pinball Tour. It was nice to see them do that. There were a lot of tours. Chicago Gaming had a tour. Jersey Jack had one, Stern had one, Galloping Ghost had one. So, again, if you were there Tuesday, and I know a lot of Europeans that made the trek, and they really got it all in, and why wouldn't you? Over five, six days of Pinball Expo activities, it was a real treat for sure. I think they had a tour of Logan Arcade as well. So that was Wednesday. Thursday morning, a few of us were invited to a very private and special pinball tour at Stern and enjoyed that. I got to see Metallica remastered and Uncanny X-Men and all their new games. So that was a lot of fun. Thanks very much for that invite. Thursday Expo opened up. I crammed a lot in. And then Colin from Kineticist and Erica and Dan, these people put together this wonderful media mixer. And I wasn't able to go in 2023, but I thought, if I'm there, I'm going in 2024. Boy, I'm glad I did. It was at Interium. And it wasn't just media. It was a lot of the Pinball Expo participants were there. Had a great time. Lots of huge prizes. So again, shout out to Colin, to Erica, to Dan for putting together this wonderful event. I highly recommend it. If you see it come up next year, should it, sign up early because I did sell out pretty quickly. And then, of course, Friday, just spent a lot of time at Expo going around the different vendors and talking to people. So here's kind of a summary of some of the people I was able to talk to. Seth Davis, President and CEO of Stern Pinball here. What a year in 2024. We're only in October, but wow, we've got Jaws. We've got Godzilla 70th. You've got John Wick. You've got Uncanny X-Men, now Metallica Remastered. Wow, you guys are keeping busy, that's for sure. We have been very busy. We're trying to deliver pinball fans what they most love, and that's new games and great experiences. So we've had a great year, and we hope you love the products. I'm not alone. I think I heard there's about 1,000 people coming to the Expo Tour, So that'll be exciting. I've been fortunate enough to do a couple of tours here at Stern Pinball this year. And, you know, as much as I love the games, when you come to the facility, you are reminded very quickly, you're a manufacturing company that just happens to make pinball. It's true. We do a lot of things. We're a manufacturing company. We're a design company. We're a software company. We're an entertainment company. We're a lot of things. And we do all of those things to bring pinball to the fans. Pinball is not easy. You make it look easy. And again, when people go through the factory, you see all the details that are involved. And we're not even seeing everything. We're certainly not in research and development, but quite a staff here. And it's been three years for you now. What was it like when you first came here? A little overwhelming? It was amazing, right? You come in. Manufacturing is something that I did when I was younger and had experience with that. and then I had a lot of experience with games more recently. So it was sort of bringing me back to a combination of both manufacturing and game making and it was really kind of perfect. It was a nice opportunity for me to bring together a bunch of things I'd done before and a very unique company in a unique place. So it felt great to me. I really had enjoyed the 10 years I spent making games and I wanted to make games again. And so that's why I joined Stern to work on the best games in the world. So you have timelines, you have deadlines. We have certain things in production in various parts for the next couple of years. What is the hardest thing about making pinball? the hardest thing about making pinball is really kind of like you alluded to bringing all those threads together and bringing them effectively to make a beautiful and wonderful game for people there's so much that goes into it and you need to get every detail right in order for people the right license the right game made the right way with all the right details all the way along that process so that what you see at the end of that you know 18 to 24 month process is a game that you're really enjoying, a game that you really like. So really my job is to work across all those pieces and figure out which of them needs a little bit of love and attention and help so that we deliver you something that hits on all cylinders when you take it out of the box. You did say the L word and license. I've heard, and George Gomez has mentioned this before, sometimes the most difficult thing is not that it's a difficult IP holder, but just making sure everyone who holds the license is happy with what you're doing, the approvals that are necessary, is that the most time-consuming? Is that a big difficulty at times? It tends to be the biggest surprise factor, right? There's things that are within your control and there are things that are outside of your control. A lot of what we do is sort of within our control, even if it's supply chain or suppliers. They're semi-within our control, semi-out of our control. The biggest wild card can be working with a licensor that might have different objectives or different priorities. So some of our work is to make sure we flush all that out as early as we can in the process to make sure there aren't surprises down the line. Because when you work with any licensor in the world, ultimately that licensor gets to approve every single thing about how the theme is used in the product. And so if they decide at the very last minute that they don't like something or they want to change something, or, for instance, if one of the actors in a particular movie decides they don't want to be in that movie, or maybe in some cases that actor's not alive anymore and their family doesn't want them in that product. There's a lot of surprises like that. Also, there's not just one license. There's a license with the IP holder. A lot of times there's music licenses. All of those different attributes are things that are kind of not entirely in your control and can surprise you along the process. And so that's kind of the biggest wild card, I'd say. Not always the biggest problem, but if they do throw you for a loop or they make you do changes that you don't expect, it can affect the other timelines in the project. I remember hearing the story about Bond, and Gomez was saying about, oh, you know, you do what you have to do with Broccoli and the people that own the Bond license and whatnot, but you also have to contact Aston Martin and have to have the car approved and everything. That's exactly right. Cars, you know, all these different things. The music. You know, all the music, all that, right? Yeah, there was a separate license with Aston Martin for that game because, you know, it's the car from Bond, so you've got to work with Bond, but it's also Aston Martin, and so that's an additional license and additional work you've got to do there. I won't keep you because you're busy and a lot of people want to talk to you, but we're here in Chicago. Expo is here, the 40th anniversary. The shows are a big part of certainly the pinball community and us getting to see these games. It's a great opportunity for Stern to showcase their games. When you see something like Expo come up on the calendar and you know the dates well in advance, is it part of the process and part of the timeline? Okay, we really want to have Metallica for this. We want to have X-Men there and get people right when the irons are hot, so to speak. People are there to buy pinball machines. Are these shows, our Comic-Cons, our Texas Pinball Festival, are these shows important to Stern? They absolutely are. The community and everything is important to Stern. We have different time periods where we typically release games, particularly around when commercial schedules make sense and selling schedules make sense but there are quite a few events throughout the calendar where we want to show up and we want to show up well And I will say for Expo in particular, it's a hometown show for our team. And our team really wants to show up in a big way when Expo comes to town. And they want you all to come into our house and they want to show up there with great product. And so there's always a little bit of an extra push when we have one of these big shows to really show up well and meet everybody where they are. Enjoy Expo. Thanks very much, Seth. Thank you very much. Ray Day, first lead on Metallica. Sticking with the music themes. Love that you're doing this. Loved it on Zep and loved it on Rush. Everything else you do. But Metallica, I mean, a masterpiece game. Probably my favorite Stern game ever and now even better. Wow. Well, that's great to hear. Yeah. I'm so happy everyone finally gets to see what I've been working on and happy it's been received so well and excited to keep working on it. I'm just so blown away by the response. Now, you and I and everybody in this industry love, love, love Lyman Sheets, and the code is wonderful. How do you take a code that is near perfect and make it better, which you've done? Thanks. It was a challenge. I had to make sure all the stuff that Lyman did comes through on the new system. The lamp effects, the light effects were all there. the choreography of when you're starting the animations. Now they're LCD instead of DMD, but you still got to time things correctly, and you got to make sure all the text is there, the information, and then weaving in some new modes to make sure that they're appropriate, and you still have the entire base game, but now you have this option of going for these extra things on top of it, and then also the Blackened Wizard mode, which is kind of a reward for doing well and the multiballs, because before, the multiballs are there, they're awesome, but I wanted to give people something to go for, you know, do well in them, and now you're going to get rewarded with this new wizard mode, which, again, is just on top of everything else that's already there. The UV kit. I mean, I'm not usually a visual guy, but that is something that's pretty special with Metallica. We loved it when we saw it on Stranger Things. Now we, hey, did James just turn into a skeleton? Yeah, he did. Yeah, that was, I think that was all Borgi's idea. He added these UV lights. He painted Sparky with UV ink and wanted to see what would happen if you lit him up. You could see his skeleton and the band members on the play field. It came out really well. I was really happy with that, yeah. Way more songs. I think 22 is the number I heard. And I assume, because the original came out in 2013, 11 years later, the band must love what Stern has done, what you've done, what John Borg and everyone else worked on this game has done to re-license it and add all this live footage and new features. Yeah, it's incredible. The game has 22 songs, all with live video. There's actually more videos than that, because for some songs, like Fuel, they gave us a music video and a concert footage. So if you're in the mode, you'll see the music video. If you choose it as a song, you'll see the concert footage. It's incredible how much content they gave us to work with. Thank you, Ray Day. Looking forward to Metallica Remastered. Yeah, thanks, Jeff. What am I doing here? Oh, I'm here at my favorite part of Expo. It's the homebrew section. 40 different machines here for the 40th anniversary, and you get some great individual games, some unique games, some wicked re-skinned games and re-themed, like this one, The Greatest Showman. And Lisa Su and Jeffrey Jones have put this together. Well done on The Greatest Showman, Jeffrey. Thank you. We've gotten a lot of feedback, and it's been really good. We're really happy. People are having fun. The artwork is spectacular. It makes sense. You took a whirlwind, and with the greatest showman, the Hugh Jackman movie, it makes sense. You've got the three-ring circus right there. That's right. And you've got a lovely topper. I love that you took Lisa Sue and said, hey, we're going to make this game. It's going to take a few hours, maybe a few days, a few months, a few years, whatever. Would you mind learning code? That was mighty nice of you This project happened because I told her, I said I can work with artists I can make the game look beautiful But I don't code And she said that if I make the game She'll learn how to code So we started two years ago At Expo we decided to do this project And in two years it's gone from an idea to this It's great I mean I can ask Lisa Sue right now What's the hardest thing about learning code? I mean I wouldn't even know where to start Oh my goodness, it's just getting started. Just that first little bit of code I had to write was overwhelming. Does it get easier as you go along? It does, it does. Once you kind of wrap your head around the concepts of how one event triggers another event and that kind of thing, it has gotten much easier. I wouldn't call it easy, though. With the homebrew community being so helpful to each other, I'm sure you've had a lot of assistance. So much assistance. There are a few guys in particular in the Slack group, Mike Becker and Anthony Van Winkle, Thank you so much, you guys. You are rock stars, and you have saved my bacon many times. I certainly know Anthony. He's been on this podcast before with what he's done and changing great games and Swords of Fury and stuff. But that's nice to see the community here. And I'm sure you're getting more tips here by being at Expo. Absolutely. We've been talking to the guys over there with Saw who are coders. Yeah. They have given me so many great tips. It is such a wonderful community. And it's funny that you both chose the Whirlwind model to do it. But two unique games. Very unique. I think it's fascinating when you can go back and forth between the games and see they're built on the same game, but they're so different. What's nice, Jeffrey, about the reskin games and like you've done here with The Greatest Showman is you know the shots are going to work. You're just changing the art. You're changing the code, obviously. But the things you've added here, look at those little lasers on the screen here. What do you got on here? The lasers are a heavy accident. When Emoto set this booth up, she put these lights up and that laser. and we've had a lot of people say this is great so we're thinking how do we add lasers to the actual machine or spotlights kind of like maybe oh there's just endless possibilities right right but uh but yeah the lasers look great it actually makes it more look like like a circus oh this is good and uh i know a movie that's near and dear to you how many days how many hours how long you've been working on this it's taken two years to get to this point we didn't track our hours but we estimate it's been over 800 hours labor of love right and is it more exciting is it more oh we've got a long road to go what's it like when you first decide here we go can you see the finish line when you first start this being our first homebrew i would say no at first it was it was a little it was very intimidating i think it's gonna go better for our next one oh but we had a lot to figure out especially the coating I mean my wife has never coated I've never coated and she did she did all of it and I'm really proud of her I restore machines so I knew a lot on how to make a machine look nice but this is a whole other beast this is you know working with an artist and you know Marco Pinball is a big sponsor here of the homebrew section And I went to Marco Pinball, and I want to give them a shout-out, too, because they have always been supportive, but they actually have homebrew starter kits. Did you see that? No, I didn't. Yeah, so there's little boxes. Here's some guide rails. Here's some ramps. Here's some whatever you need, but just kind of little starter kits for homebrews. It's really cool. Jeffrey, all the best with The Greatest Showman and whatever your next venture is. And thank you for doing the call-outs for us. My pleasure. Steve Condris is here in the incredible homebrew section. brought to you by Marco Pinball, and he's got my dream theme here, and he actually made it before Stern made it, Led Zeppelin. Steve, tell us about your great homebrew game. Well, thanks, Jeff. Yeah, like you said, it's a homebrew I started. It'll be about four years ago here in November, and back in the day, no one had done Led Zeppelin. I didn't think anybody ever would, so I was like, you know what? I love their music. Got a fun idea for a staircase mech. Let's see if I can do it, and that's kind of what the machine got built around. Now, why would you want a staircase mech in a Led Zeppelin game. Oh, a little song by the name of Stairway to Heaven. It is the standout feature of your game. Absolutely, yeah. It's one of those songs, right? It's so iconic. Everybody knows it. Everybody loves it. And I want to see if I can figure out a way to work it in. And I was really pleased with how it came out. I didn't know if I'd be able to do it. And it works pretty well. Much like everybody in the homebrew community, others have assisted. Anthony Van Winkle was a big part of helping with that staircase mech. You lock five balls onto it, start the stairway to heaven. You've got great video assets, too, from the song remains the same concert footage, and it's what people go for when they play this game. Absolutely. It's funny, right? Like, no one knows your game as much as you do yourself, and so it's fun to watch people come up and play. Yeah, first thing everybody, I want to fill out a staircase. How many balls do I need to get up there? What happens next? So you see that. They build all around it. They kind of forget about the other features, but it's all right. Well, there's lots. I know you've got some kind of almost Paragon inspirations, too. You've got some inline drop targets with 2X, 3X, 5X. You've got an upper play field where the stairway goes to. You got pop bumper action and even a hermit multiball Yeah a hermit multiball a very unique left ramp It kind of funny people watch my videos and everybody saw the ramp and they like that the steepest ramp I ever seen it never going to work I like yeah it might not And then we started playing and they like you know what it actually works pretty good I've been super satisfied with how it's come out. It's, yeah, a lot of fun things to go on, but everybody wants to get in the staircase. And what they love when they find out in a multiplayer game you can steal the multiball from each other and that's like, oh, that's like their favorite thing. It is a great thing, trust me. And you know what, let's give a shout out too to Aaron from Fast Pinball because it's not easy to get pinball machines from Utah here, and I know he was a big part of your machine and others as well. Oh, absolutely. I can't say enough good things about Aaron and all the guys at F.A.S.T. Anthony, like you mentioned, has been a lifesaver. So many people have helped me. Yeah, I wasn't even going to be able to make it out here to the show. Then Aaron's like, hey, I'm kind of driving close by. What if I pick it up? I'm like, yes, I'll pay you gas money, please. So here we are. But, yeah, seriously, the community. I mean, I'm standing on the shoulders of giants here. I would not be able to do this without the people who have come before me and made it possible. And, yeah, it's just fun to be able to make something and watch people play it. Oh, people love it. I've played several games on it already. I'm going to do it right now again. But, again, I assume, you know, I was talking to Sean Irby and what he did with 8 Ball Beyond. He brought that game here last year. And I know in Seattle that's played in competition. So in Utah, is Led Zeppelin part of SLAP maybe? So I brought it out a few times. And it was all last fall. I don't think the code was quite there. I've got a couple of bugs left to fix. But once I get those squashed, then I plan on putting it out at Keto's and let it be part of their weekly tournaments, and we'll see how it holds up. So that's the plan. Steve, congratulations. This is a masterpiece. You've done a great job. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it. And thank you to everybody who came by that I got to meet and talk with. That's like the best part is the people at pinball and just getting to watch everybody play and have fun. So thank you, everyone. He brought it back to Expo. We missed it last year, but it is back. Daikaiju, the homebrew game from Robert Anderson from Wisconsin. Robert, thanks for bringing it back. Oh, thank you. You're welcome. Steve Kowal did the programming for me, so it was a team effort. It would just be a wooden box if it wasn't for him. I have to tell you, when I was here two years ago, I know Carl D'Python Anghelo and I were obsessed with this game because there were different things to do. You had three spinners, always a good thing. You had some cool drop targets. You had shots behind drop targets. You had the kind of Spanish-ized center pop thing, which is so fun, especially when it's powerful like yours is. There's a lot to do in Daikaiju, and I don't know when you made this if you knew that competitive players would be so obsessed with this game. I had no idea. I just wanted a game that was like short ball time, simple rules. I don't know, sometimes I like my pinball experience to be more like a fist fight instead of a quest sometimes, you know? That helps with the adrenaline on pinball. You've got a good point there. Yeah, and the daikaiju music is so upbeat, and it matches great with the chaos of the middle pop bumper and the short ball times. I'm not going to pretend to say that I know daikaiju, but I've since found out it's kind of a surf band, so I never knew what that was. But it's not about how the game looks for me, especially at homebrew. Who cares? You're just creating something from scratch, which you did. this isn't a reskin by any means this is this is all you and wow it's just bloody fun as heck and so much fun in fact if you remember two years ago we were playing dollar games on this like out of all the games at expo we came to that guy too yeah i saw that that was that was great that was a good sign yes very good robert thanks for bringing it thank you if you heard on a previous pinball profile i had brad Brad Albright on who does wonderful things incredible artist well he's been kind of a big part with the electric playground because he gave us a new topper for attack from mars and joining us right now alec gleason and robin rath hey alec how are you very well man it's great to see you robin great to be here this is nice uh we see the attack from mars topper and you know one thing there are a lot of people that have attack from mars a lot of people that have these games but you cannot get the topper unless you had whatever the cgc thing was but that is not something you can purchase. Well, guess what? Now you can purchase a really cool one that's interactive. Absolutely. And it's compatible with the original and CGC's game. This has been a game Robin and I both loved. I've owned it in the past. It's always been kind of a project we wanted to get to, and we did it the right way. It's an officially licensed product through Planetary Pinball. So it's our first big boy project, I would say, in a lot of ways. I remember coming to Expo last year, and at the time you had, and you brought it again here, the unbelievable interactive Twilight Zone topper and the Godzilla one, which I believe has been enhanced too. Again, very popular titles. There are a lot of people that have these machines and would certainly like to have something like these toppers from the electric playground. I know people that have that topper that don't have the game. Yeah, we were really surprised by that. A lot of people that used to have the game, well, one, we got people saying, I got to get the game again because of this topper, but we had a lot of people who bought a wall art shelf version just to kind of like bring the nostalgia of Twilight Zone into the home, especially with the moving ball. It's got that built into it. So, I mean, we're going to talk about the Attack from Mars topper right now, but I want to talk about another one that you did. But Attack from Mars, I love the different lighting system. It is interactive. You've got the laser beams from the saucers themselves. What else am I missing? So, you've got the articulation with the alien and the mothership. They actually jump whenever you battle the saucer and you're beating up the saucer. You're that moving topper? Yeah, seven different light shows all keyed into the biggest moments of the game itself. So Stroke of Luck, Extra Ball, the Mystery Award. So, yeah, all the good stuff. And one of my favorites, again, the Stroke of Luck strobe light show actually takes effect with the matches of the mirrors, the game Stroke of Luck. It's just an amazing, amazing light show when it's all going. And, you know, Brad did the art on this, and we spent a lot of time wanting to bring more ambient lighting into your room for attacks. So the way it's designed, the light really fills all of the artwork. And you've got a green light show when you strike the saucer, red with the red flasher. When you've got extra ball lit, you've got an orange light show. And we've got strobe multiball, so when that mode is flashing, you're going to have a topper flashing as well. So it really all brings it together. And we think it brings a lot of excitement back to the game. I mean, a lot of people have a lot of games in their collection. Maybe you haven't fired up an attack, and this is going to make you want to play. Check out the electric playground for this incredible attack from Mars Topper. and, of course, the Twilight Zone one and the Godzilla one, too. But there's another one you brought here, and I believe, Alec, you were telling me, Rob Burke kind of said, hey, you know, there are a lot of older games out there, too, that need some loving, and toppers would certainly enhance that. Captain Fantastic, you have made a topper for us. Yep, that's definitely Rob's brainchild. He was beating us up for a couple months telling us there's a market for interactive toppers on EM machines. So this is us kind of testing those waters, but also doing something special for the show. 40 years is an amazing feat. We wanted to have some way to kind of contribute to that party, and so we're going to be making a very limited run at these toppers. Okay, so where can people reach you, Robin? Yeah, so the Electric Playground is teppinball.com, teppinball.com. Of course, we're on all the socials as well. We've got a lot of these products on our site that you can put down a deposit on. We've got a few you can take home here from the show, so definitely check them out. Congratulations, beautiful toppers, and a very popular vendor booth here at Expo. Yes, sir. Thanks, Jeff. With Troy Smith from Tilt Amusements and a huge booth here at Expo. And I see you at actually a lot of shows. It's a lot of work to be a vendor, isn't it? Oh, it is. I mean, not just the physical work here, but just the preparations for this stuff. And that's why I wanted to talk to you because before we started recording, I knew you brought some games. I didn't know how many games. How many games did you bring to Expo? 102. That is off the charts. How many trucks is that? Buy box trucks is what it took. So it's insane. Yeah, and it's a lot of work. So, you know, everyone's enjoying the 40th here, but, you know, you've got a huge display. That's one thing to bring to games, but you've got your armor kits, your toppers, and your shooter knobs. It's everything, and it's probably been a good year, you know, I would assume. It has been. You know, last year wasn't the greatest, but this year has picked up pretty good. What do you think, Troy? What's the difference between this year and last year? The economy's kind of the same. Maybe a little better now. we had a huge surge because of COVID. Yeah. You know, so we had astronomical numbers, and then everybody had everything. So now it was just like a small little valley, and now it's starting to pick up again finally, you know. The games that we're seeing from all the companies are doing wonderful, good titles, unique layouts and things, and a lot of variety. And you think, oh, there's only so much. Everyone's going for that slice of the same piece of pie, but the pie just gets bigger. It does. And like you said, other vendors and other distributors, yes, I'm Stern only, but I'm a collector. Yeah. And I buy all of it, too. You know, I do have an avatar on order. Sure. I haven't done Alice yet. I just, I don't know, for some reason, it hasn't tickled my fancy enough to pull the trigger. It hasn't played yet, yeah. But, you know, I have all the AP games, you know, and so I like games. Yeah, you're pretty much doing it. 125 in my collection. I like them all. Well, you know, I want to talk to you about that because I know that yourself, Trent, you got some big big tournaments coming up and had some and I know Amazing Race was very successful part of the Sternbro circuit Trent always been a big tournament guy and Debra as well too So are we going to see more tournaments? Well, I'm trying to build them up in my area, too. With my collection in the warehouse, I have 99 set up. And I have from Big Casino, what, got late 1963, all the way up to, I got a spinal tap. You, you're the one. yeah i think i'm a one of like seven or eight in the country so my favorite comedy of all time i've never watched it what the what and you still have a game all i know is it goes because i want all so when you come to my place i want you to try different things i mean i do have the medieval attack i have every stern spike tube pro and premium but uh i have csi i have 24 i have buck Connor, I like the slow production runs or low that you won't see many places. So every time you come to my place, there's going to be something that you've never seen. So hence, Spinal Tap. I think of my last two purchases, and they are games I rarely see. I've seen them in tournaments before, and certainly enjoyed them in tournaments. And I'm like, wow, we just don't see these, certainly in my area in Ontario, Canada. And I had to get them. So the last two games I purchased were Charlie's Angels, which is a great, like, has really, really good code. And I like that kind of nostalgia feel. And the other one was Valley Grand Slam. Oh. So it's the two-player game, but I love baseball. Yeah. And I played it at Freeplay Florida. Daniel Spoler brought it out. I'm like, this is a fun, absurd game, man. I enjoy it. That's what I like about going to a show like this. You play a game that never was on your radar. I am not a big EM guy. I was at one of the Cleveland shows, and there was a flip-flop. And I was like, you know, when you have to nudge it for that outlay to get back into play, I just had a great time on that. And I'm like, yeah, it's going home with me. It's pinball. Yes, it's not a bad, you know, dollar-wise compared to others in the collection, and I own, as you know, some of the rare stuff. I was like, $1,200 game? Hell yeah, let's do it. If you're a collector, I'm not trying to be braggadocious or anything, But when you see $1,200 compared to other prices, you're like, all right, let me find that in my couch. Well, when you know that I've owned King Pong and Crawl and stuff, you know, the $1,200 EM game is a smaller fish. Troy, thanks for bringing all those games and for doing everything you're doing. And we look forward to the tournaments and things you bring on. But it's always nice to see you and best to you and tilt amusements. No problem. Thanks a lot, Jeff. Have a great day. It's a long way from Amsterdam, but they're here. Dutch Pinball with Alice in Wonderland and joining us, the creator of the game, Melvin Williams. Hey, Melvin. Hi, how are you doing? You've got probably one of the longest lineups here at Expo for people to play your new Alice in Wonderland game. And I've heard a lot of people say how much they had fun playing it. It's a good shooting game. Yes, it's amazing that they're here and to have people experience the game for themselves. You know, it's better because everybody is just having moments, you know, even if you read it online. So I'm super stoked that the games are here. They're holding up perfectly. Everybody enjoys the game, and it's great. Go back to when you first started to tackle this game. It's a theme that has been rumored for a long, long time. Attempted to be made years ago. It never happened, and here we are. But go back to the initial days. So when I acquired the rights for the Sidware settlement, so I bought the storage lockers, there was all this stuff in you know drawings and even from this game and even when I saw the foam core like 10-15 years ago I was always wowed by the by the style of it like Circus Voltaire like Totem all those games and when I was looking into everything and I was like you know were you passionate and I wanted to build it and it's here so it wasn't an easy adventure The first whitewood I built on John Spex. Well, that didn't work out. Did you have to start it all from scratch after that? Yes. So, well, I had the baselines, what the game would look like and how the ball guys would go. But what John did is when he designed something, he never designed something to have it finished. So he wanted, like with the mock-up. Concept was his thing. That's what I found out when I did the first whitewood. And I had a few shots done. I was like, this doesn't work. So, and then the hard part came in, I had to design the game so it looked ecstatically just like that game, like the layout, but then have it flow better than the layout. And still retain that 90s Bally Williams feeling. So yeah, once I got that going, then I just designed everything around it, you know, all the sculpt things and every, just to create more of an atmosphere. Because you're always limited to the space you have into a game. And sometimes people ask me, so why didn't you put this on a play field? It's that the game was this way. The concept was this. So even if John would have made it, not from a static point because he would have never done it like this, but the game would probably look the same. So if I change too much or put flippers instead of the Magna flippers or put other ramps in there instead of just the clear ones, it just, you know, it doesn't work out that way. So you mentioned the Magna flippers. Let's talk about some of the great features of what you've got in this game. Things you think people are going to go, wow, haven't seen that in a while. Well, I believe one of our great features, super simple, are the in- and out-lane spinners, I call them. And it really grabs your ball. Instead of like a magnet save that was done so many times, this works really well. You can charge up the time, and you can use them when you need them, and they work when you need them. But again, with the magna flipping stuff, because the playfield is so much bigger, you need to really, if you bash the flipper buttons, the magna automatically always just does a full left, right, left, right. So what you need to do is you got to use that momentum and to ricochet the ball with more power just to get it going, you know, to the way you want to go. So on the first try, it's like, oh, this feels weird or it doesn't work. and the more you get into it, the more you get a sense to, okay, you know, is it a mech? Not really. Is it a gimmick? Yeah. You know, it's like, yeah. But it's a pinball moment. Yes, it is. You know, and some people might find it like, oh, why aren't there any flippers up there? That should have been working much better. The game was never created to be that way. I just wanted to keep to the original design, have a good flow, have a ton of fun, be easy to play, and give you back the 90s feeling. You mentioned the 90s feeling a couple of times. You talked about that sweet spot. It's the greatest hero. No, but you know also why? Even my kids today, I love all the new games that are coming out. But the problem is you start a game, and you're looking at 20 blinking lights. You don't know what to do, where to shoot for. And that makes it really hard, I believe, to get back into pinball. Because everybody's questioning what happens right now. And when my kids play this game, it's super easy. You shoot the ramp to qualify a mode. and you shoot the scoop to start it. And it will only light what's really important. And it will tell you on the screen what to do. And it's also, there are some levels to it for experienced players. So yeah, I think that's where the 90s were all about. Don't overcomplicate things. It was good back then. And I know people want more and more and more. But these days you have like a treasure map you got to unfold to see where it brings you. What I like about these kind of, I want to say throwbacks, because it feels like a throwback with all the modern things that we love. But when you say things like you can earn the in-lane, out-lane saves and stuff like that, I think of Grand Lizard and Jungle Lord and things where you can do that. I love that kind of stuff. I wish there was more of it, and here we have it. Now it's Wonderland. Yeah, exactly. So I try to, you know, I listen to feedback. I look to other 90s games, rule sets from progressive wizard modes I put in. So it can be a really hard game if you want it to be, and it can be really easy if you want it to be. It must be a game that my kids understand and have fun with, and you walk up to them like, okay, there's some tight shots, but once you get the hang of it, you'll have fun doing it. The lineups, as I said, have been huge. There's also a lineup of people that want to talk to you because they want to ask questions, they want to purchase this. Congratulations to you and Dutch Pinball. Thank you very much. I appreciate it. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find everything on pinballprofile.com. We're on Twitter, X, and Instagram at Pinball Profile. Great Facebook group as well. You can email your comments, questions, pinballprofile at gmail.com. And if you'd like to show your support on Patreon, it would be very welcome. Thank you so much for doing so. Don't worry, the show will always be free, but I do want to shout out those who support the show. GME Law, Jerry S., Derek K., Bart V., and so many others. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Put it on your calendar for next year for October. Make sure you go to the 41st Pinball Expo. You will enjoy. I'm Jeff Teels.