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Ep 46: Jessy Jay and The Secret Crystal Ark Of Pinball Doom

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 21m·analyzed·Nov 24, 2021
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Jessy Jay returns; hosts debate DLC pricing model for Cactus Canyon remake.

Summary

Jessy Jay returns to Final Round Pinball Podcast after a six-month absence due to relocation to the US. The episode features casual discussion of recent game releases (Mandalorian Premium, Godzilla, Jurassic Park home version, Cactus Canyon remake), with significant debate over Chicago Gaming's DLC code model for Cactus Canyon—a controversial decision to charge separately for Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharp's additional code rather than including it in the base machine price.

Key Claims

  • Chicago Gaming is selling Cactus Canyon remake with optional DLC code by Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharp for additional cost

    high confidence · Jeff and Marty discussing the Cactus Canyon release; confirmed by Jeff as having attended a seminar

  • Lyman Sheets' code is being sold separately because Josh Sharp and Lyman Sheets are not part of Chicago Gaming's internal team and need compensation

    medium confidence · Marty's explanation: 'Josh Sharp hasn't left his job at Raw Thrills' and they need to be paid for their work

  • Stern included upgraded code (2.0) in the price of Fathom machines rather than selling it separately

    high confidence · Jeff's statement about Fathom: 'This particular model was a big discussion that we had internally and 2.0 code was included in the price of the game'

  • Jessy Jay ordered a Mandalorian Premium and is waiting three months for delivery

    high confidence · Jessy Jay: 'I could have also sent that money on a Mandalorian premium, which I'm not going to get for another three months'

  • Multimorphic's platform allows third-party code development and sales by the community

    high confidence · Jeff's explanation of Multimorphic model: 'Anybody, anybody can write a game for that platform and sell it for money'

  • Chicago Gaming's Cactus Canyon seminar was poorly executed—started 15 minutes late, video didn't play, provided minimal information

    high confidence · Jeff's firsthand account: 'That seminar was extremely disappointing... 15 minutes late to start... video that didn't air'

  • Jessy Jay's podcast 'Jessie J's Pinball Adventures' has been inactive for about six months due to co-host Ryan's unavailability and her relocation

    high confidence · Jessy Jay: 'I have had over the last 12 months, a lot less time to spend on podcasts' and discussion of Ryan's absence

  • Jurassic Park home version exists as a Jack Danger design

    high confidence · Jessy Jay: 'I saw that there was a Jack Danger Jurassic Park home version or something. Yes. That's correct.'

Notable Quotes

  • “Marty, please save me, final round pinball podcast”

    Jeff Teolis@ 4:17 — Joke about merch idea referencing Marty's 'Who Will Marty Kill' segment; reflects the show's internal humor and running gags

  • “I absolutely love shadow till death so brian eddie piqued my interest right away... on the other hand i could not possibly be any less interested in godzilla”

    Jessy Jay@ 11:17 — Controversial hot take about recent game releases; indicates Jessy Jay's taste preferences despite being out of the loop

  • “I hate the idea of DLC, shall we put it, for pinball. Pinball is an expensive hobby.”

    Jessy Jay@ 18:20 — Core position on the Cactus Canyon DLC controversy; frames accessibility concerns

  • “This game that you just spent a lot of money on. It's fine, but here's something better. There's something about that I really don't like.”

    Jeff Teolis@ 22:22 — Jeff's ethical concern about separate DLC undermining the base game's perceived quality

  • “The decision's made. Fucking get on with it. You know what I mean? Like the decision is made. They are not going to retract it now because people are up in arms about it.”

    Marty Robbins@ 29:10 — Pragmatic stance on industry decisions; reflects the attitude that debate won't change outcomes

  • “This is cactus motherfucking canyon we have an emotional connection with this game already”

    Jessy Jay@ 30:16 — Articulates why Cactus Canyon DLC feels different from other models—fan expectations and nostalgia

  • “I fled to another state to get away from him but i will say it is a shame because i i have had over the last 12 months, a lot less time to spend on podcasts”

    Jessy Jay — Explains her podcast absence with humor; references relocation to US and life changes

Entities

Jessy JaypersonJeff TeolispersonMarty RobbinspersonLyman SheetspersonJosh SharppersonRyan CpersonRobert ByerspersonChicago Gaming Companycompany

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Chicago Gaming introducing separate DLC code sale model for Cactus Canyon remake, causing significant community debate over pricing strategy and whether it represents a negative precedent for the industry

    high · Multiple speakers discussing the decision; Jeff and Jessy Jay strongly oppose the model; Marty defends it logically but notes the decision is made

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Cactus Canyon DLC model justified as compensation mechanism for external programmers (Lyman Sheets, Josh Sharp) who are not Chicago Gaming employees

    high · Marty's explanation: 'This would only exist in this particular format where they would actually get compensation for the time and effort'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community perception of Stranger Things game appears to have shifted from negative to positive, with Jessy Jay claiming vindication for her long-standing support

    medium · Jessy Jay: 'Have I not been saying since the dawn of time that I like Stranger Things and everyone was like, no, Jesse, Stranger Things is such a shit game. and now I feel like everyone's come around'

  • ?

    content_signal: Jessy Jay exploring possibility of reviving Jessie J's Pinball Adventures podcast, potentially with different co-host or format; may produce special episodes

    high · Jessy Jay: 'I would really like to revive Jessie J. Definitely. I think a special episode could be in the works at some stage'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Debate over quality and appeal of home edition pinball machines; Jeff advocates their legitimacy based on Spider-Man home experience; Jessy Jay initially dismissive of Jurassic Park home but recognizes lack of firsthand experience

Topics

Cactus Canyon DLC Pricing ModelprimaryRecent Game Releases (Mando, Godzilla, JP Home)primaryJessy Jay's Podcast Absence and ReturnprimaryHome Edition vs Arcade Machines DebatesecondaryGame Pricing and AccessibilitysecondaryPinball Community Culture and HumorsecondaryDesigner Compensation ModelssecondaryThird-Party Code Development (Multimorphic)mentioned

Sentiment

mixed(0.45)— Positive tone regarding Jessy Jay's return and community reconnection; significant negativity about Cactus Canyon DLC model and pricing practices; playful banter and humor throughout; frustration with Chicago Gaming's seminar execution and transparency; cautious optimism about recent releases despite some hot takes

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.246

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:59
apologize uh and i think marty you you agree our last episode um we had robert byers on and um offended actually quite a few people and uh we said that's going to happen when you open your mouth but again he can't help it he's a good guy and uh he's not on this episode so it's only going to get better it can only get better and hence the the delay in the last episode we were just debating whether we would actually release it because it was just terrible it's robert and oh Oh, my goodness.
1:29
All right, Robert, fine. You got your show. We like the guy. But we really like our next guest, don't we? We do a lot. In fact, I have missed this person in my life, not only on the airwaves, but the chat waves, the interweb waves, if that's a word. I'm going to make it a word. And even though this person doesn't listen to podcasts anymore because, oh, still likes pinball, but, you know, we're just taking a back seat.
2:00
This person, she doesn't know how much you really dislike a lot of people. So for you to say that you like this person and miss her, that's huge. Who is it? It's massive. This is Jessie fucking Jai. Jessie Jai. Hello, hello, hello. Back from the dead. you really are and i i genuinely meant it when i said i miss you because i really haven't spoken to you i reckon a very long time six months at least i miss you too marty and i also miss jeff
2:33

  • Cactus Canyon remake includes new content like Bionic Bart and a shooting gallery in the topper

    high confidence · Jeff: 'There's Bionic Bart in it now. There's a shooting gallery in the topper. That's all in there.'

  • Jessy Jay won a tournament game where she chose to play Stranger Things Pro

    high confidence · Jessy Jay: 'I could pick any game and I actually picked Stranger Things Pro. How'd you go? I won it.'

    • @ 6:27

  • “When you put it like that, Marty, it's I think that's an interesting point. Like we need to value and obviously pay artists for their work”

    Jessy Jay@ 20:51 — Acknowledges the artist compensation argument but still opposes the separate DLC model

  • “Well, we don't know what it's going to cost. We don't know. We don't know. But let's say it's $500, $1,000. It doesn't matter.”

    Marty Robbins@ 28:04 — Highlights the uncertainty around Cactus Canyon DLC pricing, a key missing piece of information

  • “Have I not been saying since the dawn of time that I like Stranger Things and everyone was like, no, Jesse, Stranger Things is such a shit game”

    Jessy Jay@ 31:22 — Jessy Jay claims vindication on Stranger Things opinion; reflects community sentiment shifts on games

    • Stern Pinball
    company
    Multimorphiccompany
    Jack Dangerperson
    Raw Thrillscompany
    Brian Eddyperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Greg Silbyperson
    Mandalorian Premiumgame
    Cactus Canyon Remakegame
    Godzillagame
    Jurassic Park Home Versiongame
    Stranger Things Progame
    Final Round Pinball Podcastorganization
    Jessie J's Pinball Adventuresorganization
    Chicago Expoevent

    medium · Jessy Jay: 'But I haven't played it, and so all I can offer you is my ridiculous hot take'; Jeff counters with positive Spider-Man experience

  • ?

    event_signal: Chicago Gaming's Cactus Canyon seminar at Chicago Expo poorly executed—started late, video failed, minimal information provided, 200+ people rushed to playtest machine instead

    high · Jeff firsthand account: '15 minutes late to start...video that didn't air...basically said really nothing'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Comparison of DLC/code pricing models across manufacturers: Multimorphic allows third-party sales, Stern included upgrades in Fathom base price, Chicago Gaming separating Cactus Canyon code—establishing different industry standards

    high · Multiple comparisons across manufacturers; Jeff notes Fathom 2.0 inclusion as better approach

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Mixed initial reactions to recent releases: Mandalorian positively received (Jessy Jay ordered), Godzilla dismissed as dated/uninteresting, Jurassic Park home underrated per Jeff

    medium · Jessy Jay: 'I could not possibly be any less interested in godzilla'; multiple speakers vouching for JP home quality

  • ?

    community_signal: Community welcomes Jessy Jay's return to podcasting sphere after 6-month absence due to US relocation; hosts express genuine affection for her perspective and humor

    high · Jeff: 'I have missed this person in my life...That's huge'; Marty: 'people laugh, feel happy' about her content

  • ?

    product_concern: Community concern that DLC model exacerbates pinball accessibility/affordability crisis by adding costs to already expensive machines

    high · Jessy Jay: 'Pinball is an expensive hobby...you should be getting something that's ready to go as good as it can be'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Chicago Gaming engaging external contractors (Lyman Sheets, Josh Sharp) for code development rather than in-house team, suggesting resource constraints or specialized skill requirements

    medium · Marty: 'Josh Sharp hasn't left his job at Raw Thrills...they're not part of the company'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Jessy Jay purchasing decisions reflect current market trends: Mandalorian Premium ordered, Lethal Weapon 3 acquired, indicates collector enthusiasm for newer releases with accessible themes

    high · Jessy Jay: 'I've ordered one [Mando]...There's a Lethal Weapon 3 sitting in the spare room at the moment'

    • and can i just you guys have just done your disclaimer i'd like to throw out a disclaimer as well which is that you can't stand robert byers either i can't stand robert byers no not that I deactivated my Jesse Day Facebook page a little while ago, but people saw me drop off their friends list and thought that I'd blocked them. So my disclaimer is this. Yes, I have, in fact, blocked everyone. No, just kidding. If you think I've blocked you, I haven't done that. I'm just taking a little break. But I really, really do miss my friends in the pinball world.
    3:04
    So how are you guys? We're good. By the way, dropping friends on Facebook is a lot easier than what Marty's been doing the last few months. You haven't listened to this podcast where he basically, we take two people and he kills the one he doesn't like. One of them. Wow. What's this segment called? Who Will Marty Kill, I think is what it's called. We put a nice spin on it. Who Will Marty Save? You know. But really, the other person dies a violent death. Marty's Murder Party. To give you an example, so Jeff would say something like, oh, you know, you're stranded on an island.
    3:40
    You run out of food. one person has to eat the other person to survive. Who is it that dies? And, you know, he'd be like, so it's Ryan C or Jesse J. Who would you pick? And I'd be like, oh, Jesse J, obviously. Oh, obviously. That's an easy choice. Thank you, Marty. That's the premise of it. And I hate it. I hate the segment. I don't. I really don't like it. But he puts me through it every time. Jesse, I was at Chicago Expo last weekend, and people asked for final round shirts.
    4:12
    And I said, I don't know what we're going to do. What do you want, our logo on there? I said, if I ever were to do shirts, it would say, Marty, please save me, final round pinball podcast. That's actually really good. Yeah, I feel like you should make a limited run of those. But you can only buy one if you've been saved on the segment before. Yeah, okay. Like super limited edition. So he's killed Keith Elwin. He's killed Bruce Nightingale, Colin McAlpine.
    4:42
    Yeah. Rob Burke had an unfortunate fall last week, apparently, and didn't make the cut. Greg Silby's dead, so. Oh, no. No. Well, we don't really know. How can you kill Greg? Easy. No, I actually saved Greg Silby, and I let Stu Thornton fend for himself in a plane. A plane without a parachute. That's right. Yeah. Wow. So, but let's talk about you, Jessie J. Why do you hate us? Yeah.
    5:13
    Why do I hate you? Well, I don't have a special little trophy from you guys for starters. That's kind of where it all began, you know? Boo, freaking hoo. I'm feeling a little bit snubbed. You could have bought one. It was so easy. Fuck up. I could have. Give us your money. I could have bought one, but I could have also sent that money on a Mandalorian premium, which I'm not going to get for another three months. Can you tell I'm sad about that? But you've ordered one. That's great. I have ordered one. So I'm still loving pinball, you guys. I've got a Mando Premium on the way. There's a Lethal Weapon 3 sitting in the spare room at the moment.
    5:46
    Also with a 3D printer, which is another tangent that we can go on at some stage, but getting quickly obsessed with that. Lots of changes for me. Lots of changes. I've moved interstate. I'm living with my fabulous American. And life's very different now. I was trying to think of a mysterious reason to explain the sudden disappearance of Jesse day from the airwaves but i thought maybe i would toss that to you guys and see if you have any theories or you know scandalous reasons that i might have disappeared i have a very obvious theory as to why the podcast stopped ryan c can't stand being around obviously no there's only so
    6:20
    much theory is because of ryan that would be the correct answer at every stage i actually fled to another state to get away from him but i will say it is a shame because i i have had over the last 12 months, a lot less time to spend on podcasts. And yours was an absolute, like as soon as it landed, I listened to it. So there is a void with Jessie J's pinball adventures not being on the airwaves. Do you think we'll ever see it again? I would really like to revive Jessie J. Definitely.
    6:53
    I think a special episode could be in the works at some stage. But look, you'll have to hit that up with ryan he's busy gallivanting and um sewing his wild oats shall we say and uh he might have taken a bit of a back seat yeah yeah yeah we get it with him the last time he was on we said uh we said rip to jesse j's adventure he goes are you killing it to you also i go yes it's done it's dead and it's done i said to him prove me wrong so i don't know if he's contacted you since
    7:24
    then. That was about a month ago. So to use a Jesse Jay favorite phrase, you've thrown down the gauntlet, have you, Jeff? Yes, I have. Okay. A question for you guys. If I was going to do a podcast again, Jesse Jay or not, and I wasn't going to do it with Ryan because we hate Ryan, who would my ideal podcast co-host be this time around? Wow. The bar was pretty low with Ryan. So really anything. A bowl of lint? I don't know.
    7:54
    I don't know. Do you have a cat that has fur balls? Do you know, there's a couple of Jesses, but Jess D in Melbourne, I reckon she'd be an absolute cracker to do a podcast with, the two Jesses. It could be Jesse's J. No? Wouldn't work? No? Don't let them come up with the title. Hey, I came up with Final Round. I came up with Head to Head. Hey, I can do some things right.
    8:24
    Yeah, third time's a charm, Marty. Why, do you want to get back into the podcast world? Look, I wouldn't mind making a reappearance. I think that, look, frankly, we went hard and fast with Jessie J, right? We were producing episodes all the time. We were doing like four nightly for a while there. I think perhaps that was a little overambitious, but it was a time and place thing as well because we were existing in the crazy lockdown in Melbourne. People had a lot of time to do stuff, and now life's kind of opening up again. So I'd love to do it. maybe be a little more conservative about how often things come out?
    8:58
    Because I want to give people a laugh too. That was the whole point of Jesse Danemy, people laugh, feel happy. It wasn't necessarily about, you know, being the pinnacle of pinball knowledge. So I'd love to bring that back again. But it's not funny if you hear from me every week. Look, obviously, obviously it was never about the pinnacle of knowledge, right? But I tell you what it was. And obviously there were some parallels to Mrs. Pinn in that you were discovering things that we have discovered so many years ago that we take for granted.
    9:31
    So it was really nice and refreshing to hear those topics again discussed because it was complete nostalgia for us to be shaking the fist when either of you was saying something right or wrong. But that's what it was about. It was actually pure nostalgia because you were discovering new things that we already had discovered, but had more of like a modern lens on history, if that makes sense. Yes. And that journey of discovery and fun is continuing for me, and I'd still definitely love to share that with people that want to hear it.
    10:07
    I feel like I've also passed the torch on a little bit because my partner is really into pinball now. It's actually him that purchased the Mandalorian. No way. Yeah, way. And so I feel like I'm getting to now experience that through him in an intern as well, which is really fun. So yeah, look, there's plenty of scope for it. I think Marty, I'll just have to work out whether I'm willing to deal with Ryan again. Yeah. Or do I seek out a new co-host? Yeah. I understood. It'll come back when it comes back. The time will be right when you know it is. Let me then in,
    10:38
    in the, the void that has been, let me ask a question then of the machines that you've seen, been released recently, let's say in the last six months, because there's been quite a few. Obviously, Mandalorian, either you or your partner has liked the look of that to purchase it and have to wait six months. But what's been your impression of the games that have been released? Look, as we kind of discussed too, I'm pretty out of the loop with pinball media at the moment. I'm really, really busy with work and this move is taking me away from the pinball media. So
    11:12
    my hot takes will be even less informed than usual but i think mando looks great you know you guys know that i absolutely love shadow till death so brian eddie piqued my interest right away i think mando's an awesome theme pretty much as soon as we saw that we were like we got to get one on the other hand i could not possibly be any less interested in godzilla whoa yeah shots fired She's back with the hot takes. Is that because of the gameplay, the theme? Have you looked at it?
    11:42
    Look, this is a completely uneducated take, as I said, Jeff, because I haven't really looked at a lot of footage or anything, but the theme to me is completely uninteresting. I won't comment on the gameplay because I haven't really seen much of it, but it just doesn't really grab me, you know? A bit dated, I think. Timeless, some would say. Timeless. That's a really diplomatic way of putting it, Marty. Yeah, what else has been happening? Oh, I saw that there was a Jack Danger Jurassic Park home version or something.
    12:16
    Yes. That's correct. I know I'm coming in hot here, but hate it. Sorry, video of that. Hate it. Why? See, this is why we need Jessie J's, because these are takes I'm curious how you came to this conclusion. Are these controversial takes? I think hate makes it controversial. No, look, that's a little bit strong. Do you want the designers dead too? Maybe Marty can choose now between the maker of Godzilla and the maker of Jurassic Park. Who will live?
    12:46
    You've already killed Keith, though. I have already killed Keith, though. Yeah, damn. Why don't you like it? Look, as I said, I'm speaking kind of purely from emotion here because I don't have a logical underpinning for these opinions. But I did see some footage of Jurassic Park, the home version. So fun. It looks boring. No, fun, fun game. You've played it? I played it a lot. It was beside Godzilla Machines. And I wouldn't say it if I didn't mean it. I would just kind of say, yeah, it was there.
    13:16
    I played it and played it and played it. It was unbelievable that this is a pin. Awesome. Well, look, one thing I've always kind of tried to do and pride myself on doing mostly is changing my opinion in the face of, you know, logical and well-grounded information based in fact. So if I played that and it's factually fun and good, I'm willing to come on here and say, I was an idiot, this game is great. But I haven't played it, and so all I can offer you is my ridiculous hot take, and my hot take at present is that it looks crap.
    13:48
    But you know what? So Jeff and I have been advocates of these home versions of games for some time because we've – well, I haven't necessarily played them all, but I've played Spider-Man Home Edition, and I couldn't believe how much fun it was. It was a simple rule set compared to other Cornerstone games from Stern, but it was just fun. And it felt like a proper pin. It wasn't like it's a three-quarter scale machine. It's just, it's got, it had a DMD.
    14:18
    I think there's now a better screen on it. But I think the problem that we have is that because we know it's a home game, there's a perception that it's going to be a lesser game just by looking at it. Yeah. No, that's a good point. I think and probably one that we should avoid because you know I always kind of rallied against elitism as well and maybe that is an elitist take from me that I should be conscious of like it's a home game therefore it's not as good that's uneducated of me I haven't played it so maybe I should reserve my hatred for it well we may never we may never play them because although
    14:51
    I was going to say I never saw a home game in Australia and that's factual but I think because before I think there was an Avengers home game and a Transformers home game and they were the same game just different um skins on them and they did sell them at costco wow but i don't know anyone that bought them but have you been to costco like they sell everything there they sell everything like you can get a 10 liter jar of mayonnaise yeah and a new hearing aid so at the
    15:22
    same time can i just throw it out there as well this is actually really really random and has nothing to do with pinball but since being with an american i've learned so much and one thing i've learned, Marty. Actually, this is probably a good time to raise it because we've got a Canadian and an Australian. One thing I've learned is that Americans don't really butter their sandwiches. They put mayonnaise on them instead. That's super weird, right? That is like what? Hold on a second. From you guys who put Vegemite on everything, you're going to knock mayonnaise? Aye, but we put it over
    15:53
    butter. Come on. Exactly. And there's actually quite a lot of finesse involved in buttering a piece of Vegemite. toast as well, Jeff. You can't just layer it on there. You've got to get the ratio right. It's actually a fine art. I cannot remember the last time I put butter on a sandwich. I knew it. 20 years. No, I don't put mayo on either. I like everything dry. I'm boring, I know. Okay, so you don't have any kind of lubricant on your sandwich. Must hurt. I go in dry, yeah. Jeff.
    16:28
    Well, we're talking about sandwiches here, are we not? Okay, so can everybody please write in to finalrampinball at gmail.com. You tell us, do you use butter slash margarine or Nuttelex? You know, those other, I can't believe it's not butter type variants. Or do you use mayo to butter your bread? Or is there a third, maybe possible fourth thing that people use like lard? Ooh. Because that used to be a thing.
    16:59
    My mum used to, she used to get the drippings from a roast. We used to have tubs of dripping in the fridge. She would use that to butter her toast. That sounds delicious. Not going to lie. My wife, her French-Canadian family would make bacon and they would take the grease from the bacon and make sandwiches from that. Okay, but I can get down with that. It's pure deliciousness. We can all get down with that.
    17:29
    I'm okay with that completely. Yeah. I would love something else. So steering this ship back to pinball for some strange reason, I apologize. Weird. There's been a lot that's happened. You mentioned Godzilla. You mentioned Jurassic Park pin. There is a remake of a game called Cactus Canyon done by Chicago Gaming. That's come out. Oh, it's out. You talked about being elitist. Well, buck up because that's an expensive game. Not only is it an expensive game, It's got this really, really cool topper.
    18:00
    They are going to be also selling an additional code that you would pay after you buy the game. No. Done by Lyman Sheets and Josh Sharp. What do you think of that, Jessie? Okay, I think that this is a direction that people have been talking about pinball heading in for a while now with very mixed opinions. I personally hate the idea of DLC, shall we put it, for pinball. Pinball is an expensive hobby. it's inaccessible to a lot of people and if you're i don't know i'm sort of in two minds about it
    18:32
    but i mostly lean towards hating it and part of the reason is if you're lucky enough to be able to afford a pinball machine then you're probably also able to afford to buy new code if you so wish to but i just think it's you know you it's such a big outlay to begin with i would personally want to be getting something that's ready to go as good as it can be and especially when it's a remake and it's been in the works for so much time with all this hype you should be getting the best product completed with all the optional things that you could possibly want in the box ready to go i just don't see why how you can justify something like that other than as a money grab
    19:05
    i'll take again hate that idea no i love it and i agree with you but i'm gonna logically try and step through it not saying that you're being illogical so it's not ones and zeros ryan but what i'm trying to look at is the scenario leading up to the announcement that the machine's coming and then there's this code because for a long time people have just been wanting cactus canyon to be remade that's all they want and that's what you're getting then you've got this
    19:37
    additional and i think what you've got to understand is well is i'm pretty sure that josh sharp hasn't left his job at raw thrills you're correct and that's not going to be and he does a great job at Raw Thrills. So what you're getting at is this is how Lyman and Josh are being paid for their work. Correct. The add-on. You seem encouraged by this. I haven't given my thoughts. No, I'm not encouraged by it. I'm just looking at it logically saying this thing wouldn't exist if people weren't being paid for it.
    20:10
    If they were part of the CGC team or Planetary, whoever is really behind the coding side of it and the licensing side of it, if they were part of the company, then sure. But they probably don have anybody in the company because you got Lyman and you got Josh that have whatever wherever Lyman is I don know But this would only exist in this particular format where they would actually get compensation for the time and effort they gone into
    20:43
    And for God's sake, it's freaking Lyman Sheets code. When you put it like that, Marty. Sorry, Jeff. I was just going to say when when you put it like that, Marty, it's I think that's an interesting point. Like we need to value and obviously pay artists for their work, pay designers and programmers appropriately for their work. But I'm a little confused. I guess I need more information around like why. So CGC have put out the remake and then Lyman and Josh have done this extra code separately.
    21:13
    Yeah, that's what I believe. Yep. Okay. So why are they offering that as a separate product? Well, that's the crux of the story is why are they not just having it as part of the release of the machine? why is it offered as a something and my last point i'll make and then um you can jump in jeff is that i've always said with dlc as long as it's a choice and you're still going to have a great game without it then i'm okay but don't cripple the game and force people into the dlc realm
    21:46
    I have some thoughts on this. I really wish Chicago Gaming gave Josh and Lyman a fee for this and not a commission. I understand it from Lyman's position. I understand it from Josh's position. They're not doing this for free, nor should they. I don't like this at all. And I'm not going to say I hope it fails, but I hope it doesn't continue. This pattern at all. It's not good for pinball.
    22:16
    You are undermining the people that are programming by saying their code isn't good enough. This game that you just spent a lot of money on. It's fine, but here's something better. There's something about that I really don't like. How is it undermining code? I don't get that point. Because the game comes with code. It has a... That was written 20, 30 years ago. No, it's been changed. There's Bionic Bart in it now. There's a shooting gallery in the topper. That's all in there. There is actually new code in the standard game that you're going to be buying.
    22:48
    There's a wizard mode. It's all complete. What you're going to get from Lyman and Josh, and I'm sure, 100%, I'll bet the farm, it's going to be great. It always is with Lyman. This is something different. So you want to talk about the elitist thing? Do you really want pinball to go down this path where here's your game? Here's my analogy, and you can say it's stupid or not, but, wow, this car feels great. I love this car. I want to buy it. It drives amazing. How do I reverse? Oh, you want reverse. Here, you've got to pay for that.
    23:18
    No, that's bullshit. That is absolute fucking bullshit, and you know it. That is the worst. The more of a parallel is when I bought my BMW and they said, here you go, here's your car. If you want Apple CarPlay, you need to pay $200 a year. That's the top one. If you want updated map, right? If you want updated map. Marty, who made Apple CarPlay, though? I don't know. Apple, probably. sold through BMW? Yes. Or did you pay Apple separately? No, it was paid through BMW.
    23:50
    Okay, so that kind of differs as well from this scenario, does it not? I'm still confused, sorry, so my opinion here is probably not on the mark. We all agree how wonderful Lyman is and Josh doing this. We want them to get paid. Absolutely. No one disagrees. I don't like the pattern of this. That pattern already exists, Jeff. Already exists. Are you talking about PinBot 2.0? $2,000 for that? The game isn't
    24:20
    exactly great. No, I'm not talking about that. Give me another example. Multimorphic. You buy Heist, then later you can buy somebody else's code that uses that layout. No, it's a different module. That's not true at all. It's not. It's new code. If you buy Heist, which has, you know, you get the module that goes in there and somebody has developed that layout and you get heist the software that goes with it you can then download new games written by other people that use that
    24:52
    hardware platform isn't that free no it's not sorry i know the modules are different like if you want to go from lexi light speed to heist that's a different module you can't do that cosmic but you can buy new games you can buy new games that use those layouts do you think it's $2,000 like Bride of Pinbot or whatever. We don't even know the price of Chicago Gaming. We went to that seminar. No, we don't. That seminar was extremely disappointing. Not that the game is. The game is great. It was 15 minutes late to start.
    25:22
    They came out, tried to show a video that didn't air, so we didn't even get to see it. They basically said really nothing. A lot of questions were asked. I can't answer that right now. Can't answer that right now. After being 15 minutes late, after talking for 15 minutes, they said, well, if you guys want to play the game, it's right here. Go ahead, guys. Guys, guys, guys. He said guys like 30 times, 60 times. Jerry Thompson and I are looking at it like, you know, there are a lot of women here, first of all. Anyway, go play the game. 200 people flocked to this one machine. Like, that's the seminar?
    25:54
    Didn't go well. Yeah. So what you're saying is that you agree with my parallel with multimorphic. Cool. Great summary. No, I don't. But what I'm saying is that that model already exists. So why do we not have a problem with it with Multimorphic, but we do with this? May I ask a question that you're close to? And in particular, to people that we really like that are going to get money for it. And maybe that's how Lyman Sheets gets a career continuing in pinball. Yeah, because he couldn't work wherever he wanted to.
    26:24
    Come on. Well, we don't know that. Anyway, when you came out with Fathom 2.0, what excited me was, Wow, you're getting a lot of other upgrades. It wasn't just the other code. It was a lot of other incredible features, but you got it included. If you just sold Fathom 2.0 and here's those cool screens on the apron, everything else that's wonderful about that game, all the upgrades, except the code, do you think you would have sold the code on its own? Or do you think it made better sense to include it in that package?
    26:57
    And that's what I think they needed to do. Pay Lyman, pay Josh, include it. Sure. It's already an expensive machine. So I think you then go to a price point where people really start shaking their heads and think, you know, it's the pinball apocalypse. I'm trying to say pin apocalypse, pinpocalypse. Help me out here, Jessie J. What is it? Pinocalypse. Thank you. That was probably worse than what I said. But to answer your question without really answering it, because I don't want to say stuff that was an internal conversation. But what I will say to you was this particular model was a big discussion that we had internally and 2.0 code was included in the price of the game.
    27:45
    Which is a brilliant idea. You're welcome. I've got to say I'm with Jeff. I'm definitely with Jeff on the Cactus Canyon thing. I don't know why you couldn't have that included with the remake, just like Bad Then Revisited, and still pay your artists, your programmers for that. Why not? Because what you're saying is, let's say it's going to cost $1,000. We don't know what it's going to cost. We don't know. But let's say it's $500, $1,000. It doesn't matter. Whatever it is, if you include it, You are therefore forcing 100% of people to have that code for that higher price point as opposed to those people that don't want it not needing it and not having to pay for it.
    28:24
    It's choice. Yeah, that's going to go really well when you're playing it in competition. What code is it? Which one isn't it? Oh, it's not the same as the one we're used to. Not a fan. I don't like it. And I've talked to individuals involved trying to understand it. I get that having those guys do code is awesome. I just wish it was included. That's all. It's not that I don't want them to do the code. Include it. I get that. So just for the record, I just wanted to say I agree with you. I was giving a logical explanation as to why these things exist.
    28:56
    I agree with you. Hence where we are with Fathom, right? Yes, good point. You know, I agree with you. But also what I want to say is this, and I know we're podcasters, so we talk about it. The decision's made. Fucking get on with it. You know what I mean? Like the decision is made. They are not going to retract it now because people are up in arms about it. It is what it is. Buy it or not. Shut the fuck up. Move on. Fine. And people will vote with their feet, Marty. But if we don't talk about it, then do we want to see an outcome?
    29:27
    We can't talk about this in our lifeblood. But again, I also then I go back to my parallel with Multimorphic in that you've got the company that spends all its investment dollars in the platform and creating these, you know, the mechanical add-ons, the third of the play field that can go in. Then you've got this open community. Anybody, anybody can write a game for that platform and sell it for money. Why is that a problem? That's good for games that the code hasn't been updated in a long time.
    29:58
    So I guess in a way, yeah, Cactus hasn't been. But it just seems weird. We've been waiting for this for a long time. We've been waiting for new code. they give us new code and yet they're giving us another different option explaining why it's different uh i'm fucking tired no no no because i know i know why it's different i know why the difference is this is cactus motherfucking canyon we have an emotional connection with this game already we want this to be the best game it can be give it to us all inclusive thank you very much
    30:32
    here are my dollars when they mess with pricing models we kind of feel a little bit disconnected and a bit disappointed by that because we're kind of like hey my expectations are i'm going to get everything with this game because it's cactus motherfucking canyon so i think it's an emotional response when it comes to multi-morphic we're like oh well that they're blazing new territory that's their being their model and you know take it or leave it this is kind of different i think jesse aren't you glad when you get your mandalorian premium which is a beautiful machine And by the way, I saw Brian Eddy at Expo.
    31:04
    First time I ever talked to him. I congratulated him on The Great Games, him with Dwight. Suck up. I didn't talk to him about Stranger Things. Which we both like now. We like it. Yes, it's better. Oh, now. Okay, hang on. I'm just going to circle back to that real quick. Have I not been saying since the dawn of time that I like Stranger Things and everyone was like, no, Jesse, Stranger Things is such a shit game. and now I feel like everyone's come around and they love it again. It's going to be like,
    31:35
    how are people feeling about Guns N' Roses? Are they still loving that? Because I still hate that. I don't love Stranger Things. I enjoy playing it. It's okay. I am using emotive language. Marty, I chose to play it in a tournament. I could pick any game and I actually picked Stranger Things Pro. How'd you go? I won it. Yeah, we'll say there you go. It's a fucking great game. No, it's just... I didn't feel like playing something I didn't really know very well. So I thought, I kind of know Stranger Things. I shot the right orbit three times, started a mode, started multiball.
    32:06
    That was good enough. But, okay, so in a strange way, I'm going to full circle this whole conversation because the reason why people didn't like Stranger Things when it first came out was because of Brian Eddy. No. Listen to me. Let me finish. Let me finish my point, and then you'll agree, and then we can move forward. because people had expectations. This was Brian Eddy. Brian Eddy was the man. He had hits and then disappeared.
    32:38
    He had hits and disappeared. And we were like, what is Brian Eddy going to do when he comes back? He is going to just blow our minds. And we got Attack from Mars 2.0 with some janky shots. You'll agree with me on that, Jeff. I will. And everyone was kind of like, oh, hang on. that's that doesn't mean our expectations of how we'd hyped up the return of brian eddie there you go now what were you gonna say yeah i disagree i wasn't disappointed because it was brian eddie and i expected something different i might have heard through the grapevine that he
    33:13
    was asked to make something like attack from mars so he did as he was instructed i didn't like it because the demigorgon didn't work i didn't like the rejection of the left ramp that's it those are the two main reasons i didn't like it well they've made the demogorgon a bash toy and uh the other reason is you know i listened back to old jesse j's episodes and man she was always plugging this game so she was shilling the fuck out of this game and wore us down and in the end we went she's right but also code improved it as well jesse new code improved it too yes and it is about you know
    33:49
    playing game that's really nicely dialed in makes all the difference too because i've definitely played some crap Stranger Things and, you know, that makes a crap shot even worse. But a nicely tuned one. Delicious. Love it. That's exactly right because my first impressions of Stranger Things was at Pixel Alley, which is now shut down, which you probably know, and the operator that put the machines there always sets it ultra hard, outlanes all the way out. So a game that was pretty brutal was ultra brutal. There was no fun in it.
    34:19
    And so my first impressions of it is this isn't fun. I then went and streamed it at Hashman and Danger Rays, and I just went, hang on, what is this game that I've shat on for so long? I was really quite surprised. It was post-New Code, so it was six months after I'd shat on it. New Code, their machine was dialed in. I then played Eric's, I think he got an LE, so it's got all the projectors and stuff on it. I just went, okay, hang on, this guy. And the problem he had with his was a lot of rejects from the left ramp, but he then fixed it. But what he's also had was the eject from the left saucer went around the right in a loop instead of just randomly hitting something on the play field and going down the middle.
    35:00
    Big difference when it's dialed in. Jesse, do you know why Marty likes the game? I'm going to tell you why. Why does Marty like it? First of all, he's got one in his possession now. So that's a big factor. But Marty has this thing, and I've noticed it from years on head to head. And Marty's a good player. So I don't know what games he doesn't like, but I know if he's good at a game, he really likes it. And he was very good on Pashman and Danger Ray Stream and on Oz Eric. So, yeah, you're going to put that one in me. You know, that is not where I thought that was going.
    35:30
    And I have to say my mind went down a much different, darker, potentially offensive path. But also, Jessie J, I've mentioned this in a previous episode, which obviously you wouldn't listen to because you've just completely neglected us. But in the pro that I've got, which is on loan from Greg Silby, I think he's going to come pick it up tomorrow. He can't. He's dead. You killed him. I know. But, no, I saved him. I killed Stu, remember? Mistake. Yep. So Greg's got to code my game. So I'm obviously going to keep him. Sure, Stu's got to build them.
    36:00
    But anyway, he survived. Doesn't matter. The point is, he bought a pro fairly recently. The Demogorgon, either the hole for the Demogorgon is bigger or the ramp's just dialed in. you can nail that demogorgon nine times out of ten. Yeah, because Greg Silby took that demogorgon and treated it like a flashlight. Don't understand how it got bigger then. Yeah, you're right. My theory's blown.
    36:32
    Shots fired. Jesse, other shows won't say it. I'll say it. At Pinball Expo, they have this thing that's a Saturday off-site thing. it's called pinball olympics it's done oh my god i want to go to it yeah i i regret not going because i saw footage afterwards so jesse do you know the game xenon yes i haven't played it but i know of it so when you play it's got these weird sounds oh oh it's okay it's a great game they at this pinball olympics they do things like you have to run on a treadmill while you're playing or you'll
    37:08
    have to look through beer goggles to play or all these weird difficult things did they have a hat that you put on that's got the toot bob on it they've done that in the past they had a game that was on a bucking bronco and you had to play it so you're sitting like but for xenon cover yours children for xenon you had to stick your hands into a certain part of the anatomy and basically feel around in this gross cavern if you will that looked a lot like fleshlights
    37:43
    to play the flippers and when you stuck your hands and it went that is amazing and disgusting who's behind the pinball olympics who puts it on jay gosh i hate not knowing his name i'm sorry but jay somewhere in his garage i don't know if the game was disco fever but let's pretend it was he oh no it was tna in his garage he built a massive turntable that the machine sits on so you're playing it with a disco ball going on like just crazy the
    38:18
    biggest problem about it is it's an hour away and it's about four hours to play it and then an hour to get back so you miss six hours of prime expo and and and seminars and stuff but i gotta go sounds worth it to me yeah it sounds absolutely worth it okay well i just did a quick google for you because I'm useful like that and I think it might be Jay Brand. Either way, clearly a degenerate. If it's not, Jay, you better start building it for next year. Can I ask you guys, back to Cactus Canyon, I don't want to really start the debate, but I just want to know since I've been out of the loop, is this the biggest scandal in
    38:50
    pinball at the moment? Because I'm way out of... What? What? Did you miss Deep Root? What happened? Oh my God. Are you serious? Oh my God. I know nothing. Please catch me up real quick. Well, they've released five games. Yeah. And Food Truck was an absolute hit. Please tell me the Bible one came out. Oh, yeah. Sold out instantly. Oh, the Bible is coming out a couple of times.
    39:20
    Do you promise to tell the whole truth? Put your right hand. Okay, explain what happened. Okay, so strap yourself in. I'm strapped I'm so excited I bet you are just listen to any Loser Kid podcast in the last six months they'll explain it all oh yeah actually that will tell you so basically what happened was that Robert Mueller your good friend and our good friend Robert Mueller is being done by the SEC for securities fraud isn't it
    39:50
    no so 58 million dollars of investment dollars misappropriate Wait, wait, no, I think I did hear about this, because wasn't there something about how he, like, paid for wedding rings for his second and third wives? Second and third wives. Yes. Okay, no, I did hear a snippet of this, but... Allegedly. We don't know. Yeah, allegedly. Jesse C does, but we don't. So, yeah.
    40:20
    I'm glad I forgot about that. Hearing about it again, it's like Christmas twice. This is what's really funny, right, is that just then you've gone, is this Cactus Canyon thing the biggest scandal? It's like, are you fucking kidding me? That was such an evil laugh, mate. So cute, though. Just like, what's really been happening in the last six months? Don't miss anything. Oh, what? Seriously. Yeah. Yes. But. Totally out of the loop. There is some good news.
    40:52
    Our good friend Stephen Bowden wound up getting a job at American Pinball. So that was very exciting. So he landed on his feet I hope the others do too Amazing Stephen Bowden the nicest guy in pinball and also my favorite bump ever of all time Oh take that Ray Day You heard it here first. I have not spoken to Ray Day in a while either. Everyone's been neglected. Yeah. We all feel bad equally. I'm so sorry, everyone. But is it easier for you, like, if we need to hear Jessie J,
    41:22
    do you just want to come on this show and screw that Ryan guy? I just, listen, look at Marty dusted him. He didn't do head-to-head anymore because he's like, I don't want to do it with Ryan. I don't want him to know this. But what do you think? Will you come back on the program? I'm seeing a bit of a pattern. I would love to. It's been so good talking to you guys. And I feel like we've only scratched the surface of hilarious shit that I need to be caught up on and that we can debate with my opinions totally not anchored in fact. So yes, of course, anytime. We will scratch again, Jessie. Yes, until then.
    41:53
    I can't thank you enough for coming on. It's great to hear your voice again, and we certainly miss you. And all the best. Next time we talk to you, you'll have that Mandalorian premium. That'll be fun. It will be, and I will be back on the airwaves talking about how much I am a Brian Eddy fangirl. Stay tuned for that. I love you guys. It's so good to talk to you both. Awesome. Bye. So there she was, the ever-awesome Jessie J. What did we learn, Jeff? I'm throwing it right back at you. What did you learn, Marty? I learned that DLC continues to be a very hot topic and quite a divisive topic.
    42:31
    And I don't want to keep going on and on and on about it, but I'm going to say this. Last weekend, new code for Wizard of Oz was released. And what it does, it enables Scorbet for free. Nice. All the Jersey Jacks are doing that. For free. Other companies are paying for internet connectivity, but Jersey Jacks are free. So as I said before, when I was trying to talk about the situation with Cacus Canyon, I was just trying to give you a logical explanation
    43:04
    as to why they did it. Whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant. The part where I said the decision's made, they'll live or die by it, that'll happen. But I will tell you this, when I saw the code come out and all I had to do was put a Wi-Fi dongle, which I already had, into my machine and boom, score bits enabled, I just thought to myself, good on you, Jersey Jack. That's fucking great service right there that you're giving this away for free because they would have had to have paid score bit,
    43:34
    the people behind it, the rights to be able to do it. So part two to my BMW story with Apple CarPlay, 12 months after I bought my car, BMW decided to then just give it free. And at that time I went, thank you, BMW. That is a nice thing to do. That makes me feel good about your brand. And that makes me feel good about Jersey Jack's brand, that they're giving me internet connectivity and scorebit connectivity for free. Thank you. That dongle. Is that what that's called? A dongle? A dongle.
    44:04
    Yeah, a dongle. What is a dongle? It's a penis. No, it's just a USB device that enables Wi-Fi over USB. 15, 20 bucks? Tops? Like nothing? Yeah. I had, because in my old house where I lived in Richmond, because I had a three-story house, yeah, go look at me, and I was up on the top floor and the router was on the bottom floor, I had to get a really expensive Wi-Fi dongle just to be able to get through the distance
    44:36
    and through all the walls. So it was just already there. And so it was probably, I don't know, maybe $120, $150, but a Wi-Fi dongle will cost you, I think probably here, probably $40 maybe. But that's nothing. That's a piece of cake. I was talking to Keith Johnson about it, and I said congratulations on, first of all, his Pinball Expo Hall of Fame induction this year. Yes. Yeah, pretty cool. He's been a guest on the show. And also the score bit,
    45:07
    and that we're seeing all these code updates, and how exciting. It was done on Dialed In. It was done on Wizard of Oz. It certainly was with Guns N' Roses. You're going to get it with all of their games. And tell me people who have Pirates aren't excited to see a code update. That's going to be fantastic. I really like what they've done with Scorbit. I've used it before. It's nice that it's included with the games. So you've got Stern Connectivity, and it was quite popular at Expo. A lot of people were using it. And, again, we haven't even scratched the surface of what both of these products will do.
    45:38
    But it got me thinking about Scorbit. Obviously, Stern said no to Scorbit. They wanted to do their own thing. but do you not think spooky american maybe multi-morphic chicago gaming they probably will knock on the door on haggis do you not think these other companies will want to have something if everyone else has either connected or scorebit oh for sure without a doubt i mean the other thing about scorebit is don't forget it can connect with a lot of older games stone connected is only lcd
    46:08
    games and moving forward. Nothing back before that. I like it. I like the score bit thing. I also use it for tournaments too. So when you're score keeping and you have score bit, instead of having to wait for the display to come up, boom, it's right there on your iPad. Next person in, let's go. Speaking of tournaments, yours truly got back into it at Expo. They have that long flip out one. Congratulations to Escher Lefkoff, another final round guest here in episodes past. He won it again, his second time in a row, defending champ.
    46:39
    The Classics winner, DJ Ryle, he also defended this champion. Carrie Wing, she won the women's. But that tournament was different because it was in a new room, and you're really isolated from Expo. And when you go to something like Expo or TPF, which is really show-based, yeah, I want to play in the tournaments, but I also hate having to be in the tournaments because I'm missing everything else, like seminars, vendors, and everything else. and I was like, it's one of those necessary evils, but you do it.
    47:10
    And there was some time to walk away if you were in a queue for half an hour. Okay, I'll swing around with the vendors or maybe get a bite to eat. But it was weird because this tournament, they put all the new games in, so they had Godzilla in the tournament. Yeah, okay. Was that controversial? Because all the Stern players in the tournament, they know before everybody else? Is that usually what goes on? No, no. I did hear some people say that, but it's pretty much new for everyone. And it was very, very easy to understand the game.
    47:42
    I don't know how to exploit the game, but it was very well laid out. God, was it fun. So speaking of Expo and its layout, because I think it was a bit of the feedback that I got from a lot of people was saying that the layout was just a little bit sort of weird. And I would argue that TPF was a bit like that. I mean, you had the tournament room separate to the main room. Indiesk, in a way, was like that as well because you had the tournament room, but admittedly, it was a massive tournament room with a lot of games going on. Really, the only one that I've been to is Pinberg, really,
    48:13
    which has all the machines at the end of the hall, but it's all in one big hall, and you go through all the other games that are just on display and the vendors section to get to the tournament section. But what are the best layouts for tournament? or for expos but for shows really okay so this is a new facility for expo and in years past you go to registration and then you walk into the different rooms it was really in different pieces there was a 24-hour kind of arcade there was the seminar section there was a play area
    48:46
    free play area that had some home brews there was a separate area of tournament games it was really amazed to get to everywhere. And then they moved it around the last time at Expo, and you kind of walked in, and it was all there with the exception of the seminar rooms. And it was really impressive. You walk in right there, the big Elvira display, the big Stern display, the stage was pretty cool. So this is a bigger facility. I like that. But I guess the concern was when you walk in, the first thing you see is the registration. That's great. And then a free play area with
    49:18
    a lot of Rob Burke's personal games, which are pretty unique. There were some fun ones there. But you're not anywhere near the vendors or the big displays of the companies. So all you're seeing are these kind of, I'm not going to say beat-up games, but not really wow factor games for the majority of people, I would guess. And one vendor that wasn't in the vendor section that basically was selling as-is things and some flyers and I'm not going to say junk because it wasn't junk, but it was older pieces, really not a wow factor. And then some more further down, and then you turn right, and then they're stern.
    49:51
    and there's Cactus Canyon, and there's JJP and American and the homebrew. That was the wow factor. But you didn't see that when you first walked in. So the layout, I would have had those two reversed. You want to walk in and go, holy cow, what's this? You didn't see it right away. And this year, Stern had their own stand? Because I know that when I went to TPF, I think they were part of the Marcos stand. Yeah, no Marcos this year. so stern had a huge huge stand and dj and 20 godzillas and tons of other mandalorians and
    50:24
    zeppelins and all their releases it was something to see no question and jersey jack just as big a display and uh all of their games were on site cactus canyon came a little late here's the thing about expo so many of us arrive on thursday because that's when the seminars begin i actually arrived on wednesday night that was and then the tournament starts 10 a.m but the expo itself doesn't open until 4 or 6 o'clock at night, and then it closes down at 11 o'clock. Okay, so you've got five hours there. Well, most of those people are coming in on Thursday.
    50:54
    Expo didn't open the vendors aspect until 4 o'clock on Friday. So all those people that come on Thursday are kind of, okay, what am I going to do? They want you to go to the seminars, which you have to pay an extra bracelet for. Really? Yeah, yeah. It's not included with Expo. It's an add-on. So they want you to go to all these seminars. And I just think if I was a vendor, all these people here, open the doors. Especially since Friday morning, I believe, is the Stern factory tour, which is virtual this year.
    51:28
    When that's done, what do you do? Listen to the loser kid. They talk about it. What do you do? I just think a lot of people are flocking there. Expo's only a short window. Open it up on all day Friday because it's open all day Saturday and then it's done. So it's kind of a one and a half the expo no no no go bigger yeah okay and we say that not as a complaint is we want to see more we want to we want more bimbo yeah so yeah i i would be disappointed if i was which you know the intent was if it wasn't last year it was going to be this year to get to expo i know you and i have
    52:00
    spoken about it because we had a video chat with kate martin whom obviously i love but expo was on the weekend international travel restrictions ended in australia the day after expo yeah same for europe too so things have changed now thanks ian i was wondering when ian was gonna make an appearance ian wants restrictions to keep happening it keeps him relevant but you know you know that we're out of lockdown now you do know i do i do i saw i saw you and stewart
    52:32
    even after you tried to kill him at mackers we were at mackers that's correct uh they had sorry to just like i i don't some mcdonald's for everybody we call it mackers here or mickey d's mickey d's or whatever it is and sure in the u.s but we call it mackers here they had this they have this special looks like i think i can't remember what it's called but it's like 30 30 days of deals and every day there was a there's a deal at mcdonald's and this particular the day it was two quarter pounder meals for nine dollars it's a good deal oh my god is it i was
    53:09
    like oh my god that's a lot of food it wasn't it was just the right amount of food i gotta tell you two quarter and sue's like well hang on they're just big cheeseburgers yeah i guess so so that's why we went to mackers there you go so i know that you chose ed van der veen over rob burke last week had nothing to do with either man. It had to do with the food in the locations, and you like Texas barbecue and hard eight and other wonderful things about Texas. You didn't mention Whataburger Big Miss, but...
    53:39
    I've not had Whataburger! Oh, my... I know, right? I've not had it. That's why. I want it! Yeah, me too. Chicago does not disappoint in food. So I was there Wednesday night, flew out Sunday night. Spent a lot of time with Pinball Howard, by the way. Oh, great guy. Just one of my favorite people in the world. He really is. Very nice man from Baltimore, Howard Dobson. And we took a cab to grab a last meal before we left and then headed off to the airport.
    54:12
    But that last meal for me was deep dish pizza from Giordano's. Did I mention it was the third time I had Giordano's in that four-day trip? I had it Wednesday night with Raymond Davidson. I went again on Friday night with some of the guys from the Poor Man's Pinball podcast and fans of those, the tribe members, and of course Scott and Josh and Joel Engelberth was there as well. It was great. So I did it three times. Then someone told me about this wonderful steak sandwich.
    54:44
    Gosh, I forgot the name. Portilla's, I think, had that. Just so you know, it's dinner time here, and I am freaking starving. So keep going, keep going. 3.12 a.m. here, and I could go for that right now. Oh, you had me at steak sandwich. I easily had 20,000 calories in four days. Like, oh, my God, did you hear that? Was that my belt buckle? That was the sound of no one being surprised. Oh, paid for it, paid for it, like pizza comas I was having.
    55:19
    So, so good. I mentioned the tournaments. Now, I want to bring this up because you are big into tournaments and organizing tournaments. We talk about how important timing is in tournaments. Yes. This is a tough one. Oh, I heard there was some timing challenges. Is that right? This is a tough one because it's this huge bracket, and you can only play when the bracket catches up to you. So some parts of that bracket might be three, four games or matches ahead of you. So there's that. I mean, we get that.
    55:49
    You know that going in. It's frustrating. Because you kind of have to wait and wait and wait. Or can I go? Gosh, I'm so hungry. But again, woe is us. We're playing pinball. Big deal. The other thing I forgot is spacing. So the games are really spread apart for the main event. The classics event, there were five machines that were against a small wall and adjacent to the five or six machines in the women's. Well, the main tournament gets done pretty much Saturday.
    56:22
    There are very few people playing. By Saturday night, you're down to about eight people at best, and there's a lineup of 12 machines. Whereas everyone's cramming to qualify in the classics and in the women's, and we're all cluttered together in that section. So it made me think of how important spacing is and how much room you have available to wiggle around without bumping into people. or they call your name and you can't get to the machine because there's a crowd there. Those are other issues, and I never told you about this in Germany. Tobias Wagner is a wonderful TD, and we had a good talk about it.
    56:56
    People were asking me, what's it like in North America for tournaments? I'm like, well, the games are spaced out pretty good, and there's almost a line you're not allowed to cross so that no one's directly over your shoulders. I never told you this. We had to play in this classic room. By the way, just great facility. I'm going back. I think I'm going back in June. I love it that much. but they had all these people crammed around a machine you've seen the movie boogie nights right um come on wait wait wait wait wait is that the one where what's his name mark is it marky mark
    57:26
    shows his big donger at the end but it's actually a fake donger there's more to the story than that but i'm glad that's what you got out of it so what did we learn about boogie nights yeah mark Warburg's donger at the end, which wasn't real. He was Dirk Diggler. That's right, he was too. The reason I bring this up is because it is the greatest ensemble cast in any movie that I've seen in the last 20 years. And there's a character played by William M. Macy from Shameless. He's a cameraman and his wife is a porn star.
    57:59
    And if you've seen the movie, you understand what I'm getting at. So if you haven't, I got to explain it. He's always looking for his wife. Well, she's off banging some other dude, right? And he's like, where's my wife? Have you seen her? Nope, haven't seen her. And then he'll walk up to like a crowd of people that he's got to kind of weasel into, and they're all semicircled around her watching her have sex with some other guy because she's a porn star. And he's like, hey, that's my wife. And she's like, oh, shut up, Jim, or whatever his name is. And he leaves, and he's distraught. But every time he's trying to find his wife, she's in this huge crowd, and they all gather around her.
    58:32
    It reminded me that in Germany, when you're playing pinball, everybody's around you and stuff. They've never seen a pinball machine, and everyone has to watch every single ball. I play, I don't know about you, I play pinball. When I'm not playing, I get the fuck out of the way. I'm gone. I don't need to see everything. That was the weirdest thing. So roundabout way of saying this at fucking 3.30 in the morning now is when you're playing pinball in a tournament, respect the people around you. Give some space. You don't need to be breathing down their neck.
    59:05
    Oh, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff, Jeff. In case you didn't know who I was talking about. My absolute pet peeve. The thing I hate the most. Ryan sees smell. Yes. No, he smells quite nice, actually. Oh. And this is a shout out to James Williamson. Who knows exactly where I'm heading with this. The thing I hate the most, the most, is when I'm in a tournament and there are people just hovering around in my personal space whilst I'm playing.
    59:42
    One of my most annoying pinball experiences, and yes, it involves Ryan C. I've mentioned this either on Head to Head or on Fun Around, whichever one is more popular, I don't know. There was this one tournament I was playing at Pixel Alley and I was on, I think I was on Kiss. What have we, Kiss or either that or Aerosmith? They're the same machine. And as I was playing this game, Ryan C was at my shoulder. Oh, yeah, I know the story. Commentating my game to somebody next to him the whole time.
    60:12
    Oh. Kick him in the nuts. Oh, my God. It was just such a low point when it comes to tournament experiences. It was the worst. I mean, I hate people hovering around me. And this is why I started using headphones is because I needed to block out the sense of people around me. I needed to just feel that there's nobody. I needed to dance like nobody was watching. Fucking hell. I'm so drunk right now.
    60:42
    Anyway, the point is I absolutely hate people in my personal space when I'm in a tournament. It's my absolute number one. So what you've just described is literally the worst possible scenario I could ever have at a tournament. And that's worse than my experience with Ryan C. commentating my game. Do you ask players, hey, do you mind standing behind me? I do. I played in a tournament tonight. Yes, I won. Fuck, enough already. I mean, you're used to that in Australia.
    61:15
    But I was playing a guy and I just said, hey, do you mind standing behind me? And I don't mind saying that. But you're right. I use headphones to block out players that are maybe not right beside me but are extremely loud and have to let you know every time they hit a shot Yeah yeah yeah Oh ah oh Yeah yeah I know That also just that why i bring headphones and i sometimes i got stuff on but usually it just to block them out so i also remember when i was at um expo when i was at the tournament there when you thought i was jordan's
    61:45
    dad just thought i'd bring that up again i remember in the finals i was playing big game and somebody was commentating my game on that and you know can i just say to everybody please shut the fuck up when you are within a meter of somebody in a tournament. But I also will just say that as a TD, I have to spend a lot of time just telling people to move back, stand back, they're playing. But the worst thing is non-tournament players, people that aren't there, that are at the show,
    62:16
    that just come up while someone's playing and stand right next to them and start talking to them. It's like, go, please. No, that's the worst thing. Can you please? and then they think I'm a fucking cunt because I have to tell them to move away. No, it's a fucking tournament playing here, you fuck. But they don't get that. And I've got to appreciate that it's a show. They don't get that it's a tournament because it doesn't look like a tournament area except for all the TV screens everywhere and the ticker tape. You just can't get there. You know. Stop it.
    62:47
    The hot button topic, can you tell? I'm looking at our sponsor of the week and I'm thinking, damn, why don't we have like a cattle prod or a taser for tournaments? A taser? Oh my god Something One verbal The next one Electrocution Is that much to ask? No As a TD It's not Too much to ask It's not our sponsor of the week It should be But we've got a good one Here it is You listen to every episode of Final Round Every word Every breath is cherished You wonder How the hell could this show get any better?
    63:19
    It's impossible Or is it? It's time to sign up for the Final Round downloadable content it's more than what the freeloaders get. Like who at TPN is actually a real son of a bitch? Zach Minney. Dennis Creasel. David Dennis. Tom Graff. You think the Who Will Marty Save segment is fun on the regular podcast? Wait till you see what he does on the DLC show. Don't be the only one without this extra gold. That fear of missing out will get the best of you.
    63:50
    That would be like buying a brand new machine without new code included. who would do that get the final round downloadable content today yeah it should have been a taser it should have been a taser now that you brought that up i'm thinking maybe we need to who are the taser manufacturers maybe that's a discussion for another day one thing about expo and i'm not gonna go on and on about expo but it are you no aren't you this is something you can put into any scenario it's about pinball drama and god
    64:24
    is this the biggest drama in pinball with cactus canyon oh hello please here's a drink have a seat it's like somebody being off the grid and uh in 1994 and going hey i think you can do any more of those naked gun movies. I really like that OJ. What's he been up to? But, poor Jesse. Anyway, Jesse, go on
    64:55
    pin side and get up to speed. Oh, well. Well, if Ryan was a better co-host, she would know this, but I blame him. What I wanted to say was pinball drama. And when you go to something like Expo or any tournament, especially you, especially me, people that are in the media field, call it that. We talked to a lot of people. Well, this is interesting because you hate most everyone. So, it's easy for you to avoid people, whereas I don't know why, some people kind of like talking to me and I appreciate it
    65:25
    and, you know, yin and yang, I guess you and I, but they come up to me and I'll talk to one person and then I'll talk to somebody either immediately or not too much after and I remember in the back of my head those two people really didn't like each other. Like, I don't like having to pick sides. You know what I'm getting at? Like, you and I know some of the drama of certain people. I do. I know what you're saying, yes. It's like when you have friends that are a couple and they break up and you ask yourself, okay, who am I going to be friends with? I like them both.
    65:57
    It's that kind of thing. Well, how difficult is it to be friends with both? It is really difficult. It's freaking tough. And so, you know what? I'll just put this out there. if i like the person and you don't that's i'm not telling you you do what you want to do but i'll also do what i want to do if they have done nothing to me i'm good and uh it doesn't mean i can't like both i know i know read between the lines you know what i'm saying i'm not i'm not even reading between the lines i know enough of what you said to know it's you know what it is unfortunate because those people those people have had the problem and it's now everybody else that suffers as a result
    66:33
    So all I'm saying to these nameless people that you aren't mentioning, just fucking talk to each other. Just don't send emails. Just talk to each other. Just have a conversation and you'll realize that you actually like each other more than you thought you did and you'll forget the shit that happened. I mean, if Shakespeare's sister can reunite and bring out new music, then anybody can. Was that the Gryffin Medanorama? Yes.
    67:03
    I don't know. No, you know why. That's Dave Stewart, isn't it? Like Eurythmics and... Well, yeah, so he married Siobhan Fay. So the reason why I brought that up... So side note, guys, here. Everyone knows that I'm a big electronic music fan. One of my favorite bands, most people won't know this, but one of my favorite bands is Heaven 17, who they were an offshoot of... Oh, hold on a second. I'm just listening to all the people turning off the podcast. Go on. Anyway, well, they were an offshoot of the Human League, right? And so one of the members of Heaven 17 is a guy called Martin Ware,
    67:36
    and he's got a podcast called Electronically Yours. And if you're into 80s music, electronic music in particular, go and listen to this podcast. It is fucking fantastic. He's amazing. It's not necessarily the best produced podcast, but he gets the best guests in the world, including my absolute idol, Vince Clark. Obviously, you know who Vince Clark is. I call him Vinnie, but go on. You do. So they had actually had Marcella Detroit from Shakespeare's Sister on his podcast recently, and they had a terrible, terrible breakup.
    68:09
    Massive, massive, really just awful. And I don't know, it might have been like 20 years later, somehow someone said, no, this is coming back to your point, your boring topic that you brought up. Oh, sorry. It's your boring topic I'm trying to make interesting. Anyway, the point is they managed to get back after 20 years and had just to meet and have a conversation. What happened in that conversation is that they realized that they were fighting over misinformation.
    68:41
    They had been told incorrect information. And when they actually spoke to each other face to face, they were actually able to exchange facts and then realized the fight that they had 20 years ago was all a misunderstanding. So that's why I'm saying People, just talk Just talk and you'll find the common goal And you will just reunite And Shakespeare's sister will release new music That's all we ever hoped for Now, if New Order can do that with Peter Hook
    69:14
    Then I'll be happy But that's not going to happen Life is too short, I guess, is the lesson here You know, there's no time for hate Just patch things up if you can Is that right? What I'm saying is I know who you're referring to and they're both good people on either sides and we just want mum and dad to get back together. Yes, yes. There's no time for hate, which brings us to our next segment. Marty, it's time to save one person here. Marty, I know you love both,
    69:44
    so this is going to kill you. Oh, don't. In fact, you've picked the people on this show. You've made it possible to have these two people, But there is a light at the end of the tunnel. No one's dying. No one will die. But they will be sent to Isolation Island for a little bit of time for some self-reflection. Okay, so there's no violence here. But we're going to send somebody away for a good year. They'll be safe. Everything will be fine. No violence. Two people you love.
    70:16
    Already I find that very difficult to believe, but keep going. You've said it on this podcast. She's already gone. Jesse J and Kate Martin. Our first women in the Who Will Marty Save? So, Marty, Marty, this is a tough one. You're impossible. This is a tough one. I've never met Jesse. You have. You've sang karaoke with Jesse. She's great. We did Barbie Girl together. Yep, that's correct. Oh, Kate Martin, we've all had fun with.
    70:47
    She was on this program doing the drinking stream. She was on the reach-arounds. We certainly chat to her late at night for us, probably afternoon for you when she's at Buttermilk Bar, and great sense of humor. We always get a kick out of her. I saw her at Expo. She ran the Whipped Tournament. She ran the Women's Tournament. Two very good people. But in Marty's eyes, somebody's got to go and go away for a year because of some deep hatred that we're about to hear. What is it, Marty? Okay, this is on the surface quite a moral dilemma.
    71:21
    It's a difficult conundrum, some would say, on the surface. However, I'm going to let the listeners know about a conversation that I had recently with one of these people. One of these people said that they set the clock on their watch to Melbourne time. Okay. Mm-hmm. Melbourne time, Melbourne time to chat with Ryan C.
    71:52
    Like they've actually set their clock to Melbourne time just so they can communicate with Ryan C. Now, I just want to let everybody know, just in case you don't know this, I live in the same fucking city as Ryan C. I live, I know where he lives and I've now moved closer to him. I am 10 minutes away from Ryan C by car. Yet this person has decided to set their clock for Ryan C and not me.
    72:23
    So I think you know where this is headed. Go easy on them. No violence. You've said their fate is in your hands. See, it's on you. You're the one that tells them where they have to go. I'm just the person. I'm just reading the show notes you sent me. Pick two people I can kill. so even though jesse j hasn't spoken to me for six months has ghosted me for six months dumped you on facebook too dumped me on facebook although in between recording and now she's actually added me on facebook so there's that just now just now that's horseshit i've been on with
    72:57
    her since day one i think when she started her new facebook thing i was like the third friend in and you just got in now well all you're saying is like right now i've got to choose and right now it's fresh that warm beautiful sensation i get of having somebody that i love request to be a friend with me i didn't i didn't send out the friend request i got given the gift of a friend request from jesse j and yet i haven't spoken to her for six months but she doesn't have her
    73:29
    phone set up so she can know where ryan c is so therefore hold on i am saving jesse j no no There's nothing more. What are you going to say? Last week, Kate Martin and myself and others, I think the Loser Kid guys were there. Ron Hallett was there. We FaceTimed our good friend Marty. We even put on earbuds to talk to Marty. We grabbed shots of Fireball. Three bottles I went through that weekend, by the way, with friends and stuff. Hi to the guys in Tucson.
    74:00
    Was that before or after your FaceTime call with Ryan C? Oh, oh, oh, oh. Okay, okay. It was the day after. I know it was actually after because I actually messaged you saying, hey, how about we have a video call? And you're like, oh, I've got to go out to dinner. I'm like, okay. That subtle little message to you was, hey, I've seen that you've had a call with Ryan Seat. Hold on. What the fuck has happened to me? What am I, a chopped liver? You're more of a chopped sandwich with mayonnaise on it.
    74:31
    But this is... I also am a Canadian, so I didn't have Wi-Fi, smartass. So it wasn't me who called Ryan C. It was Kate who called Ryan C. This is my point! What? This is my point! You asked me to call you. Kate Martin called him instead of me. She is going away for a year. Sorry, Kate. I tried. Still love you, Kate. Beautiful. I love Linus McPants. Hey, that's how the game goes. Who will Marty save? By the time we're done podcasting, the pile of people that have been exiled or sadly killed is going to be so huge.
    75:10
    Yet, congratulations, I guess, to Jessie J. Sorry, Kate. Oh, my God. We're going to hear the wrath of this. Boy, oh, boy. What else do you have? Well, shall we talk about some messages that we've received? Oh, yeah. I think a couple of episodes ago, we sort of, I don't remember. and I keep people, oh my God, sorry, side note. Everyone that comes up to me goes, oh, you know when you said blah, blah, blah. I'm like, do you know what? As soon as we stop recording, I forget everything that we've said. Even after I've edited, I completely forget.
    75:41
    So people are like, oh, you know when you said, I'm like, I don't know. So apparently a couple of episodes ago, either you or I gave a big sob story about the fact that nobody emails us or contacts us. Turns out a lot of people did. So I just want to give a big shout out to Clint Warren, Michael Wynn, Derek, I don't know. Oh, Derek. Go, I'm Indian. From Pentastic. I know Derek. Yeah. Okay. I know Derek. Do you know why I know Derek? You know, when this whole, there's a theme that happens with this
    76:13
    Who Will Marty Save? Whoever loves me the most, they get saved, right? I remember the first time I went to Pinburg, the very first person that said hello to me was Derek. And so I remember that. I remember him. I had not met him before. I knew him by name. And I just went, you know what? I'm going to remember you because you were it. You were the first person that knew who I was. So that's cool. So let's do it. Dave Oshetsky. Glenn Wachter. Well, of course we love him. The Papa Pals reached out to us. Dr. John, thank you very much for reaching out again.
    76:44
    Brent Brunner. You are amazing. In fact, he says, hey guys, great show. As an avid podcast listener, you guys sound like you're having a great time doing it. And I hope you keep doing it. Keep up the good work. I'm glad that we sound like we're having a great time. See what I wrote back to him? No. I said, as long as the paydays keep rolling in, we'll fake it till we make it. Till we make it. Thanks for taking the time to write and listen to our babble. But here's another question. So John Morrill wrote in and said, when you get to choose, do you like to go first or second? Or if it's, you know, match play, whether third or fourth?
    77:15
    We're talking about a head-to-head tournament play. A head-to-head. So, okay. I answered to him, and you can discuss this as well. I actually like going first. It's my thing. I like going first because I like to set the pace. And I feel even if I have a dud first ball, when it comes around to my second ball, I still feel like I can have a massive ball and therefore psych everybody else out. That's why I like going first. People choose, like if I get to choose the game and people are like, oh, you'll have to go first.
    77:46
    I'm like, oh, terrible that I have to go first because I like going first. Yeah, I don't care as much because if you have a great first ball, it can be demoralizing to your opponent and all that kind of stuff. If you have a bad first ball, well, it's catch up. A lot of games have risk-reward, so going second has a big advantage. Okay, what do I really need? Okay, I can cash out now. But games like TNA, which John mentioned, you know, I played that in a tournament a couple weekends ago. I locked two balls. Do you think I could start multiple?
    78:17
    No. Gift for the next player. I did it again. Totally screwed up. So that's really player error, but I would have preferred to go second there. Something like Pinbot, F14 Tomcat, and even I, somebody told this to me and I didn't even realize this. Jurassic Park, the pro version, it's better to go first on, especially with the Raptor Pit. If you get a ball in there, it presents a problem for player two for that lock. I didn't know that, but I saw it firsthand at Expo, so I think I prefer second.
    78:49
    I like to watch the game, maybe hover over the person, breathe down their neck, commentate on their game, things like that. Which is a very cool thing to do. Everybody loves that. Well, no one's got a cattle prod or a taser, so what the fuck? Exactly. So anyway, we got an email from somebody that was asking about all the different tournament formats. It's a long segment, so we are going to talk about that next episode. Good. It's only four in the morning here, but... Well, it's not.
    79:19
    It's not four o'clock. It is four here. Oh, 3.40. Give me a break. It's 3.41. So... Yeah. It's 20 minutes away. By the way, my phone has Melbourne time on it. Yep. You know mine has Toronto on it. To talk to you. Correct. That's why I would absolutely not say if you're given the choice. No, I don't know. I probably would. Well... I'm never asking the question, who would you save it with me and anybody else? I already know the answer. It just depends on the person, doesn't it? What we're saying is it's not a guarantee.
    79:52
    If somebody pulls Marty on a podcast, whether it's Loser Kid or I know you've done the plum one that was around, and somebody dares ask you that, okay, you've done podcasts with Ryan, C, and Jeff, I don't want to know the answer because... And Joe. Well, Joe is going to be saved. That's easy. I figured the two dregs. I do like Joe. Yeah, yeah. So I don't want to know the answer. And just keep in mind who's fresh. who's the one who's on with you every two weeks? Not the one who deserted you to go on long walks on beaches and bullshit like that. Not the one who commentates behind you.
    80:23
    Every two weeks, did you say? I couldn't talk for a while. Listen, this is, hey. It was a month ago we released an episode. No, well, I know, but again, do you want to know what the problem was? Again, didn't have the Wi-Fi. Couldn't even upload a show and get some of the information I needed, so I'm like, ah, I've got to wait until I come back. I know, you have to wait until you come back, get out of pinball profile episode oh yeah i know the struggle is real eat it struggle is real eat it hey anytime you want to edit this show jackass fucking put your hand up i do half of it sort of
    80:56
    i'll trade you no don't i'll trade you no don't because i know that we we were talking the other day about it's that time of year again when there's potentially gonna be a head-to-head christmas episode yeah as soon as you mentioned it to me and i was like you know i haven't really thought about it just the first thing that came from my mind was oh my god the fucking editing i hate it so much yeah it does suck but you know what doesn't suck is that we get great feedback and we do really appreciate it it is nice we do which is weird because we fucking make fun of
    81:29
    everyone but still whatever they still managed to get in touch with us so i know so jesse j what a treat that was this week and we'll be back again soon won't we we will indeed and if you do want to get in touch with us as we've said email us at final round pinball at gmail.com you can go to our instagram at final round pinball podcast our twitter is photo round pin and facebook is just final round pinball thanks jesse j appreciate you being on the program and thanks to you for listening my name is jeff teos my name is martin robbins thanks kate i love you talk to you in a year