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Episode 23 - Pinball Horizons

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·39m 0s·analyzed·Nov 19, 2018
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

SWL discusses upcoming games, rising classic pin prices, and homebrew pinball challenges.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast discuss upcoming pinball acquisitions, rising secondary market prices for classic games like Bram Stoker's Dracula and Attack from Mars, their interest in the upcoming Munsters machine, and plans to stream Munsters Premium at their studio. They also preview an upcoming interview with Todd Tuckey of TNT Amusements regarding his book deal, share listener emails debating Chicago Gaming Company's next remake (Cactus Canyon vs. Big Bang Bar), and explore the challenges of homebrew pinball development.

Key Claims

  • Bram Stoker's Dracula machines have jumped significantly in price from ~$3,500 to $5,000-$6,500 range recently

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discussing secondary market sales; specific price points mentioned for recent sales

  • Lethal Weapon 3 machines are experiencing forced appreciation due to scarcity in the $1,000-$1,200 mid-90s market segment

    medium confidence · Ken mentions seeing a Lethal Weapon 3 listed at $1,900 that sold within hours on Pinside

  • Bill plans to acquire a Munsters Premium machine in January and set it up at the Pinball Pale Ale studio for streaming

    high confidence · Bill states: 'if everything goes as I plan it to go I'd like to get in on a Munsters Premium um when that's available maybe in January'

  • TNA has one of the best sound packages of any recent pinball machine

    medium confidence · Ken discussing last week's best sound packages segment and noting TNA was overlooked

  • A fully restored Whirlwind (like Bill's restoration project) would value around $5,500-$6,000+ due to labor costs alone being $4,000-$6,000

    medium confidence · Bill and Ken discussing HEP pricing for restorations; Bill estimates his Whirlwind restoration value

Notable Quotes

  • “I mean, at the very minimum, with what I'm doing to it, with how clean this game should be, I'd like to think now after all this time and money that I'm putting into this, it should probably be a $5,500 to $6,000 machine, if not more.”

    Bill Webb @ ~50:00 — Reveals how restoration labor costs translate to secondary market value; indicates the economic model behind collector-grade machines

  • “I'm always kind of operating, and just to get a little personal here, it seems like I'm always operating within about a $20,000 budget of pinball. Like, my inventory rotates, and it's at about $20,000 at any given time.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~35:00 — Personal disclosure about collector capital constraints; illustrates how finite budgets force rotation strategies among serious hobbyists

  • “For me, I'd rather just kind of have something that's plug and play. And I don't mind, you know, going in and shopping a pinball machine. But to tear everything down, replace a playfield, build a new cabinet, it's just, it's beyond my patience.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~65:00 — Contrasts two collector archetypes: restoration hobbyists vs. acquisition-focused players; illustrates product positioning for remakes vs. originals

  • “To really get something dialed in and polished where other people want to play it. Well, it's taking it past one, two, and three... Daunting, time-consuming.”

    Bill Webb @ ~85:00 — Acknowledges the hidden complexity and labor investment required to move homebrew machines from prototype to playable product

  • “I hope, or I really hope that there's a Cactus Canyon remake from CGC someday. I'd buy a new in-box for sure.”

    Kevin Patterson (listener) @ ~55:00 — Listener demand signal for Cactus Canyon remake; indicates market appetite for Chicago Gaming Company's next classic pin reissue

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonTodd TuckeypersonMunstersgameBram Stoker's DraculagameAttack from MarsgameCactus Canyon

Signals

  • ?

    collector_signal: Bram Stoker's Dracula machines have experienced rapid price appreciation from ~$3,500 to $5,000-$6,500 in recent weeks, forcing collector reconsideration of acquisition strategies

    high · Ken: 'there was one that was listed and sold for, was it $65,000 we were talking about? Yeah. And another one recently that was listed and sold, and it was in the high fives maybe, I think.' Discussion of $3,500 baseline to current $5,000-$6,000 range

  • ?

    product_launch: Bill Webb planning to acquire Munsters Premium in January 2024 for studio setup and streaming integration at Pinball Pale Ale studio

    high · Bill: 'if everything goes as I plan it to go I'd like to get in on a Munsters Premium um when that's available maybe in January'

  • $

    market_signal: Mid-90s pinball machines in $1,000-$1,200 range (Lethal Weapon 3, Q-Ball Wizard) experiencing forced appreciation as everything above them has become out of reach, driving rapid secondary market sales

    medium · Ken discussing Lethal Weapon 3 listed at $1,900 and selling within hours; noting that 'any pinball machine that's older in kind of the mid-'90s, low to mid-'90s... is going to not appreciate at this point'

  • ?

    design_innovation: TNA (Tales of the Arabian Nights) gaining recognition for exceptional sound package design that influences overall game experience and enjoyment

    medium · Ken: 'TNA, in my opinion, has one of the best, arguably the best sound package of any pin that's come out recently. The music is incredible and the way that it ties itself in with the machine is really really awesome'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.117

0:00
The Special When Lit Pinball Podcast is sponsored by Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, makers of Pinball Pale Ale.
0:11
The Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Hey, what's going on, Pinball Land? Thanks for joining us on episode number 23 of the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. I'm Ken Cromwell. And I'm Bill Webb. And we are surviving as best we can. We are the Special Wins Sick Pinball Podcast. Pinball Frogcast. That's what I feel like I sound like. Yeah, if we sound congested and nasally today, it's because we are, and we are at the tail ends of what we consider the podcast plague. Hopefully. So, you know, this episode isn't going to be a full hour here. What we're kind of trying to do at this point is kind of touch base with you guys a little bit, because on Tuesday night, on the 20th, we will be interviewing Todd Tuckey of TNT Amusements. and that interview I imagine will take place going into that evening where it's not going to be as easy for us to kind of edit and get an episode out to you that same evening. So by doing episode 23 today, it allows us to take a couple days and edit up episode 24 with Todd, and then we'll upload that during the week. So you guys will – this is kind of like an extra bonus content episode, and then we'll have another episode during the week. So kind of playing a little catch-up. Yeah, so hopefully we can give you the 3T podcast on Thursday, you know, Todd Tuckey's Thanksgiving podcast. So you guys are baking up your turkeys. You got something to listen to. I'm excited to talk to Todd. I mean, recently in the news with him, I mean, it's kind of the whole book deal that's kind of gone sour. It seems like not of any fault of his own. And, you know, like I said, that's something that we definitely want to touch on. but I think this interview is just going to be more of kind of like the career of Todd Tucky, how he started in the coin op industry and up to that book deal recently. Yeah. So it should be interesting. It seems like he's got a lot of support from the pinball community on this deal. Yeah, he does. I just recently heard him, and it was pretty accurately described. I think I heard somebody say he was kind of one of the founders of coin op as an operator and a reseller. So, and he's got that personality that everybody seems to gravitate to. And I mean, he's got so much exposure with his YouTube page and, uh, you know, we'll go, we'll get into it with him on Tuesday. Yeah. Don't want to go too far into that today. Yeah, for sure. Uh, we've got a couple, uh, user, not user, but listener emails and messages that we can, uh, kind of end this podcast with, but what's been going on with you, Bill? How's your week going other than the bubonic plague? Yeah. Um, good. You know what? This weekend I was going to start painting, but because of ailments and whatever, we didn't get a chance to. Painting Whirlwind? Yeah, painting the cabinet for Whirlwind. So this week, probably starting tomorrow night, I'll line the garage with plastic so I can start painting that. And hopefully, I'm hoping a week from today, I have it all assembled and painted, minus the graphics. So over the course of the next couple of days and into next weekend, hopefully we'll be uploading a lot of cool pictures. Nothing's better for your sinuses and respiratory system than spraying some latex paint. Exactly. While recovering from a cold. So nicely done. I'm looking forward to see how that turns out. That should be a good time. What's going on as far as pinball? Let me ask you this. I was thinking about this today. We've got, you know, machines, new machines on the horizon. Is there anything that you're looking for as far as what you're looking to buy? Like what's your next acquisition in a perfect world? I've heard you talk about a lot of pins in the past. Has anything changed? Are you looking at anything new that's coming out? Or have your sights changed on used pins and what you're looking for? So, you know what? I'm really curious to see Munsters. Me too. So I think before I did anything, I'd probably want to see the Munsters. But I'm still really gung-ho on a Wizard of Oz, Ruby Red. or, you know, I was talking with the wife yesterday, or maybe a Ghostbusters premium. Are you thinking about getting a Monsters? Maybe. Really? Depending on how it goes. I'm not going to say I'm going to buy one, but I'm curious to see it. But for sure, I definitely want to see that. But the top three right now in my mind are the Wizard of Oz. If I didn't pull the trigger on a Wizard of Oz, I'd still like to get a Ghostbusters premium and an Aerosmith premium. Okay, so you've got a few different pins that you're looking at. Yeah, as far as newer stuff goes. I saw there was another Bram Stoker's Dracula that was for sale, and it sold, and it was like around $6,000. So I don't know if I'm missing what's going on here with Bram, but there was one that was listed and sold for, was it $65,000 we were talking about? Yeah. And another one recently that was listed and sold, and it was in the high fives maybe, I think. Are you talking about Zags? Yeah, I am. And that's sold. So wasn't that not like a $3,500 pin not so long ago? Oh, yeah. Did I just go back to the future there, which is happening? That was the back to the future text alert from the wife. Oh, gotcha. Yeah. So anywho, sorry about the interruption there. She thinks you're in the bathroom, but you're actually in the Pinball Pale Ale studio. Yeah, I snuck out the window. Right. So yeah, I mean, that's just crazy. Honestly, I wish Zach the best of luck getting... I wish all these guys the best of luck with Bram Stokers. If they get it, they get it. That's awesome. You know, the value of that just flew up overnight, which is just insane. And again, I thought like 35.4 was like pretty respectable for that pin. For these to be in the $5,000 range, $6,000 range, as far as I am aware, they're not high-end restorations, but it's impressive. So I guess anybody that's sitting on a Bram Stokers, you've got some excellent trade bait. Oh, yeah. Or you've got some cash, assuming you've got an above-average, nice collector-quality cabinet and game. But at that point, all right, so I'm staring at your Attack from Mars. You stick Brams next to Attack from Mars. Which one do you gravitate towards? I guess I think Brams is a pretty decent pinball machine. I like the Miss Multiball. I like how you can stack all the multiballs to kind of blow up the machine. The video mode is decent with the guns and stuff. But it never really called me to want to have it in my personal collection for whatever reason. now i'm kind of kicking myself because i could have gotten them you know in the 2500 2800 range yep decent examples too um you know all that being said uh attack from mars is just it's a classic and it's flowy and there's a lot of shots and i mean arguably one of the top two one or two or three pins of all time so at a six thousand dollar price point if you're looking to get like an attack from Mars Remake Classic Edition or a Bram Stoker at six, I would definitely go attack.
game
Big Bang Bargame
Whirlwindgame
Chicago Gaming Companycompany
Stern Pinballcompany
Two Brothers Artisan Brewingcompany
Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
Lethal Weapon 3game
TNA (Tales of the Arabian Nights)game
Wizard of Oz Ruby Redgame
Ghostbusters Premiumgame
Aerosmith Premiumgame
Monster Bashgame
Kevin Pattersonperson
Chris Hutchinsperson
Circus Voltairegame

manufacturing_signal: Full pinball restoration labor costs ($4,000-$6,000 per HEP pricing) significantly impact secondary market valuation, with fully restored machines (e.g., Bill's Whirlwind) expected to command $5,500-$6,000+

high · Bill: 'I looked up HEP pricing on some of this stuff, and to do a game is between $4,000 and $6,000. Just the labor.' Estimates post-restoration Whirlwind at $5,500-$6,000 minimum

  • ?

    product_strategy: Ken expressing preference for factory remakes with modern features (extra large DMD, new sound, RGB lighting) over hunting/restoring originals, indicating market segmentation strategy for Chicago Gaming Company and similar manufacturers

    medium · Ken: 'For me, I'm not a purist where I have to have an original. I would almost rather have a classic pin like that that is new in the box, that does have upgrades...'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Community actively speculating about Chicago Gaming Company's next remake candidate; listener feedback favors Cactus Canyon over Big Bang Bar, with some mentioning Circus Voltaire and Cactus Canyon as top candidates

    medium · Kevin Patterson listener email: 'I really hope that there's a Cactus Canyon remake from CGC someday. I'd buy a new in-box for sure.' Joe Zankis mentions Cactus Canyon 'Continue Project' from years ago

  • ?

    content_signal: Special When Lit planning to launch Thursday streaming of Munsters Premium at their studio with beer/social integration, indicating growth in pinball podcast/streaming content ecosystem

    high · Bill: 'I'd like to set it up in the Pinball Pale Ale studio here and then start having that machine as our first game that we stream and then try to get our pinball nights streaming every Thursday'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Todd Tuckey's book deal has 'gone sour' with community support rallying behind him; hosts planning full career retrospective interview to discuss the situation and his industry contributions

    medium · Ken: 'recently in the news with him, I mean, it's kind of the whole book deal that's kind of gone sour. It seems like not of any fault of his own.' Noted as 'one of the founders of coin op as an operator and a reseller'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Homebrew pinball development reveals massive hidden complexity beyond mechanical/cabinet work: programming rule sets, geometrical shot design, coordinate systems, and artistic integration present non-trivial barriers to entry

    high · Bill discussing homebrew challenges: 'just the programming...there's so many variables. Allow this to happen, cancel this if this happens, but you can allow both of these things to run, coincide with one another, but then you can stack with this.' Noting 'getting something physically on the whitewood makes more sense'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Twin Cities area (Hopkins, Minneapolis) hosts have strong pinball venue ecosystem (S.S. Billiards, Tilt Pinball Bar); Clay's VFW Hall in Ann Arbor offers biannual public access to rare machines like Big Bang Bar

    medium · Kevin Patterson: 'living in the Twin Cities area. We're blessed to have a lot of great pinball offerings. Thus, I played Big Bang Bar at S.S. Billiards in Hopkins, Minnesota and Cactus Canyon at Tilt Bar or Tilt Pinball Bar in Minneapolis'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Clear divergence between collector archetypes: Bill Webb (restoration-focused, project-oriented, 70+ hour commitments) vs. Ken Cromwell (acquisition-focused, plug-and-play preference, $20k rotating budget). Hosts recognize and respect both approaches.

    high · Extended discussion of their different philosophies; Ken: 'I'd rather just kind of have something that's plug and play' vs. Bill's detailed restoration methodology

    • 7:05
    But here's my question to you. Is there something that we're missing from Brams that we aren't giving it credit for?
    7:13
    Potentially. I have not owned it enough to really. But I've got to say I've got 100 plays on that pin. See, I don't have 100 plays on it. And because of that, honestly, at any given point in the last two years, I could have put together the brams in my house. Yeah, because you can put one together right now, couldn't you? It would literally take me probably about, I don't know, 60, 70 hours. Well, there's your Ghostbusters premium. Well, it's not mine, though. Oh. It's Joe Francisco's. Francisco. So, you know, would he care? No, absolutely not. And I guarantee you I could put that thing in my basement, and he would be like, okay, and I'd have it for the next three years, and life would be good.
    7:48
    But honestly, it just never pulled me in enough to say, yes, I want to dump, you know, 70 hours into this project. I just missed where the price on the used market jumped so much on that pinball machine. Well, the prices here, I saw a Lethal Weapon 3 on Pinside listed, you know, for four or five hours at $1,900, and it sold, you know, within hours. Now, again, these sale prices aren't necessarily documented at selling at the asking price, but, I mean, for those to go that fast, there had to have been an agreement that had to be respectable for both. There wasn't a whole lot that was taken off if you sold it in a few hours, more than likely. I would agree. It would sell for a few weeks. Or a trade. And I think Lethal Weapon 3 is just one of those pinball machines where it is what is left at that $1,000 to $1,200 mark, and it's just forced appreciated now because everything else has gotten – Out of reach? A little bit, yeah. So I think – I don't know if there is such thing as a pinball machine that's older in kind of the mid-'90s, low to mid-'90s, that is going to not appreciate at this point. So, yeah, okay, and, you know, to add one to that list, you know, even Q-Ball Wizards, that Gottlieb game, or, yeah, I think it's Q-Ball Wizard. You know, I think that was not a great game, but even those games are going for $1,500 to $1,700 now. Limited code and kind of a quirky game to be a great pinball machine. It's interesting. Yeah, so, again, prices are on the rise, and they're on the rise all over the place, it seems like. going back to new acquisitions pinball wise monsters is definitely on my radar too i think if everything goes as i plan it to go i'd like to get in on a monsters premium um when that's available maybe in january and ideally what i'd like to do is is i'd like to set it up in the pinball pale ale studio here and then start having that machine as our first game that we stream and then try to get our pinball nights streaming every Thursday where people can kind of you know grab a beer grab a refreshment sit down have a sound in the background and you know we be playing machines and talking pinball with everybody else and I think that'd be a fun way to kind of break everything in and take it that way other than that for used machines right now I am starting to just realize that I think we talked about this before I when I sell something I don't have the remorse but when I get an opportunity to get it back at a decent deal, I'm excited to do that. I'd like to get a Dialed In or a Hobbit back again. I would like to get in on a TNA at some point. And the reason that I'm also bringing up TNA is last week we talked about the best sound packages in pinball, and I don't know why it didn't even come to me to think of this. But TNA, in my opinion, has one of the best, arguably the best sound package of any pin that's come out recently. the music is incredible and the way that it ties itself in with the machine is really really awesome so that's one of those machines where just listening to that music can kind of set the tone for how you are able to receive the game and enjoy the game so my apologies for forgetting about TNA honestly we haven't been in our right mind with the plague but you know what I agree because you can hit the start button on TNA and just let it run while you're having beer Yeah, for sure. I have the TNA cassette tape.
    11:04
    Now, I'm not going to lie to you. I have not opened the cassette tape. Well, you're still trying to find the cassette tape player. I did order the FLAC files, though, for $9.99. I was able to get those. So that's kind of cool. I like that stuff. I like having it. I'm not exactly going out in the yard and sipping pina coladas to the TNA soundtrack. But just as you said, you're downstairs or you're next to your pinball machines. You fire that up, and it's pretty awesome. It's pretty good times. Yeah, definitely. And then I think finally, I think I'd really like to, for the third time, get another Scared Stiff. I've been thinking about it, and that's another pin that's up there in price right now. But it was kind of high when I sold mine. But at the right price, I'd like to get back in and probably just keep it. I've had two. One was a Brian Kelly Restoration, and I was just nervous having that in the house. But I'd like to have a nice example of that and just kind of sit on it and not move it again. With the Monster Bashs coming up, you see a lot more of those coming up for sale now.
    12:00
    Yeah, you know, Monster Bash, I would love to get a Monster Bash, like the special edition. I don't think I'd be in on the LE, not because it's not awesome, but because, you know, save a little bit of money for that special edition. Well, some of these are just cost prohibitive. Yeah, yeah. You know. I think Attack from Mars LE, you have to get that LE if you want that topper, especially, and that's interactive.
    12:19
    But yeah, Monster Bash, I don't have a lot of time on Monster Bash, so. Yeah, you know what? Neither do I. I mean, that'd be another good one to own.
    12:27
    Monster Bash would be cool. Looking forward to the monsters. You know what's tough is, like, I'm always kind of operating, and just to get a little personal here, it seems like I'm always operating within about a $20,000 budget of pinball. Like, my inventory rotates, and it's at about $20,000 at any given time. It's either tied up in pinball machines, or I sold machines, and I've got part of that stashed away for pinball machines. So the amount of machines and the amount of titles that I'd like to have and keep just doesn't work out as well with a $20,000 budget. And I'm not crying about that. I worked hard buying and selling years before I got into pinball to even put myself in a position to have that. For some people, that's a drop in the bucket. And for others, you know, it's something that they would love to have. It's just that's where I'm at right now. And, you know, I've had so many.
    13:21
    I feel like a little kid, man. And it's like when the lottery, the lotto gets real high, it's like, man, if I won the lotto. Whoever's got a new in-box Twilight Zone. You know what? It would be so awesome to just erect a building, get anything that you wanted in any condition that you wanted, and just have it there. Take care of all your pinball buddies.
    13:41
    Pinball acquaintances, I could see me throwing $100,000 for them to build a pinball collection. You know what I mean? It'd be fun to kind of spread the wealth that way. But I think the other problem is this. in that type of a situation,
    13:54
    you are able to acquire everything so easily, it might lose its luster too. Because I think half of the fun is the chase and the effort that goes into getting funds or buying and selling and flipping to find the game that you're looking for. And then once you have it, the chase is over. So then you hope that that pinball machine... Lives up to its reputation. You hope that it provides you the entertainment that you've been hoping for. And a lot of times it does, but in order to get something else, something else has to leave. So I normally don't have more than four or five pins at any given time. So it's tough.
    14:29
    Space restraint and then financial restraints keeps me in a position where I'm constantly rotating in and rotating out. See, we're in a different position because anything that's in the basement now, I mean, there's only a couple games in there that I would say are just visiting.
    14:45
    So I don't know if I really have a pinball budget just because my Terminator 2, a friend of ours is borrowing it because I was literally constrained for space. So he's like, dude, no problem. I'll foster that pin for you. But I'll always have a T2. I'll always have a getaway. The Baywatch is never leaving. I'm hoping to God the Whirlwind never leaves. I'm hoping that that pulls me in. I'm going to be curious what happens with Whirlwind because with the current pinball pricing, after you're done with this Whirlwind, is it going to be like a $6,000 or $7,000 Whirlwind? I mean, potentially, could you ask that and get that? I mean, have you thought about it if you were to sell it? I mean, it's not a $4,000 whirlwind with everything that's being done. I looked up HEP pricing on some of this stuff, and to do a game is between $4,000 and $6,000.
    15:30
    Just the labor. Yeah. So if you were to take, let's just say you found a $1,500 whirlwind, right? Yeah. I mean, at the very minimum, with what I'm doing to it, with how clean this game should be, I'd like to think now after all this time and money that I'm putting into this, it should probably be a $5,500 to $6,000 machine, if not more.
    15:52
    Chris Hutchins has the reputation at high-end. He does. Yeah, high-end pins. And he does incredible work. He does beautiful work. Yep. I went on Pinside and was looking at some of the stuff that he's been working on lately, and it's just absolutely gorgeous. It's fun looking into his threads because he updates quite often on any particular title that he's working on. And it's just really cool to kind of see the techniques and what's involved in what he does.
    16:15
    I don't know how that doesn't get monotonous. I mean, it's a labor of love, man. You have to be into that 110% passionate to do that. It is because for him it's a job. For me it's a hobby. So this weekend I wasn't really feeling it. And, you know, with family stuff going on, which, you know, shout out to my father-in-law. He'll be getting out of the hospital tomorrow. He was in for, you know, I think it'll be 38 days by the time he leaves tomorrow. Wow. So that frees up a lot of... Hey, nothing puts you on the mend like listening to pinball podcasts. Oh, yeah. So we'll have to forward this link to them. You get a mention. But, you know, I'd be real curious to see what that would wind up going for. So if anyone is that curious about Whirlwind and has some experience with it and wants to shoot what you roughly think something like that would be worth, please do. Definitely curious. Yeah, I'd be curious too. you know but you know another game that i would love to have not because it's a great game not because it's iconic but is uh the cactus jacks just because it's so terrible and i don't know if that'd be a keeper but just because the dancing cactus in the back you better get one now it's gonna be like 3500 in a couple months probably yeah no kidding cactus jacks uh well you were talking about cactus canyon last week you know and that would still be another fun one that i'd love to have we had i'm not spending 12 grand or 15 grand on a on a pinball on one pinball machine well we were talking we were speculating we and we were talking about cactus canyon we were talking about big bang bar yeah uh pins that we think that could potentially be the third release for chicago gaming company we had a couple listeners that wrote into the show uh first one was kevin patterson and he says hey love the show guys and i love that you're just talking pinball and not feeling like you need to do news or other stuff interestingly enough he says living in the twin City's area. We're blessed to have a lot of great pinball offerings. Thus, I played Bing Bang Bar at S.S. Billiards in Hopkins, Minnesota and Cactus Canyon at Tilt Bar or Tilt Pinball Bar in Minneapolis. He says, Big Bang Bar is fine, but it was a bit boring to play. Cactus Canyon is in my all-time five favorite games. First, I love the theme. Western gunfighting, gold digging, train hopping fun. The gunfights with the pop-up bad guys is great. Shooting the Bart Brothers face, great fun. stopping the moving train. What a great toy. I'm lucky enough to be able to play Cactus Canyon during the rec league that I'm in and it's great fun and it's challenging. I hope, or I really hope that there's a Cactus Canyon remake from CGC someday. I'd buy a new inbox for sure. For reference, his favorite games are dialed in Cactus Canyon, Monster Bash, Jersey Jacks, Pirates of the Caribbean, Williams, Indiana Jones, and he owns a Guardians of the Galaxy. So Kevin, thanks for writing into the show. Yes. Thank you, Kevin. I like that he's able to offer perspective on something that he's been hands-on playing, and then he kind of gives you a little background of what he likes to collect and what he currently owns. I've not played Cactus Canyon, and again, I've heard split things about Cactus Canyon, so I don't know. Again, I still want to play it, but I get excited listening to him explain it. Well, here, let me throw you this one. Can the Cactus Canyon code be any less deep than T2 And I mean here let go back into this for a second So T2 they had you know that was the first DMD well one of the first DMD games that came out So code wasn't as deep on that game. So it's pretty simple. It's a fun game. That and Pinsound, you know, T2 with a Pinsound sounds incredible. Yeah. So let's just say we took a Cactus Canyon with the original code, threw a Pinsound in there, and put in, like, some awesome quotes from, like, Tombstone. You know, I'll be your Huckleberry and some other choice phrases, man. Don't even know what the callouts are in that game. Yeah, I mean, that's the cool thing with Pinsound. You customize your game. Yeah. You know, more so than changing LED lights. I mean, changing a sound package is pretty cool. Yeah. We had another listener write in, Joe Zankis, and he writes, Cactus Canyon, the Continue Project, showed up at MGC a few years ago. The guy that routes pinballs at Brixie's across from Galloping Ghosts rotated one in when I visited there. Big Bang Bar, I played it a friend seven years ago At the time not realizing how rare that it was The play field's decent The left ramp is really steep I really like the space theme And the music and DMD animations They're all great And yes, there is a virtual version Of Future Pinball that plays Big Bang Bar He kind of talks about how you can go ahead And download that and how we can play it Virtually And then he says both the games can also be played At Clay's VFW Hall which is open to the public twice a year now, and it's in Ann Arbor, Michigan, which is about five hours from us. So, Joe, thanks for taking the time to write into the show. And, again, another opinion on Big Bang Bar. Yeah. You know, space theme he likes. Maybe it's a little boring. Who knows? So, overall, it seems like the consensus is they are fun games. I think, overall, the consensus is what somebody thinks is boring, somebody else thinks is exciting. Well, yeah. And what somebody thinks is awesome, another person thinks is a dog, which is totally cool, which is exactly why we need to play these things. Yeah. Right? And we'll see what happens with CGC with the remakes. I'd like to see Circus Voltaire. That's one I've never got to play. I've played it, and first of all, visually, it's pretty stunning. And I think that's true of a lot of, like, John Papaduke's pins. They captivate you at first glance. You're like, wow, this is really, really cool. And it was fun. It was colorful. I liked that the DMD, especially at the time, was down on the play field where it's a little bit easier to kind of see what's going on right off the top of the play field versus having to look up between the speakers. I didn't play enough of it to dislike it. I was really motivated to wanting to get one. And then the reason that I did hold back on buying a used one or searching for a used one at the time was, again, Chicago Gaming saying that that's part of the pins that they plan on remaking. Because at this point, for me, I'm not a purist where I have to have an original. I would almost rather have a classic pin like that that is new in the box, that does have upgrades like an extra large DMD, a new sound package, RGB lighting. For me, that's totally worth it because that's what I would try to take an old classic and try to make it into. So instead of trying to do all that on the side, the bang for your buck is there. And that particular product totally answers everything that I'm looking for as a consumer for a classic or a new pin. See, that's where you and I differ a little bit because I would love to get trashed out. I love finding trashed out games or trashed out whatever and then bringing it back to life, knowing everything that I did do it to make it bulletproof, which takes a lot of time. But that's just part of what I love about pinball, which now I actually spend more time rebuilding pinball than I do playing it. But I still enjoy it. I have total respect for you because I see how meticulous you are and you're not afraid to take anything on. And I can totally, I'm envious. I wish that I had that motivation. I think where I'm at is I'd rather just kind of have something that's plug and play. And I don't mind, you know, going in and shopping a pinball machine. But to tear everything down, replace a play field, build a new cabinet, it's just, it's beyond my patience. And some of that just beyond my skill set. Well, you better love doing that. You know, I mean, you're not going to be able to. I could love doing that once, I think. Yeah. But I think after you kind of go through that once for me, I don't know that I would want to go through that again. See, it's nice after you do it the first time because you know, okay, I can do this. Second time, it's like, okay, I can do this. How much of a challenge is this one going to be? And now it's to the point where it's, okay, strap in. I know how many hours this is going to be. Let's get it done, which is also refreshing too because it's not mindless work because you still got to pay attention. But, you know, it's still just that tedious, monotonous crap that I like doing. Well, I imagine it's kind of nice knowing, too, that if you acquire a game, that it's not something that you feel like you have to get done in a week. I mean, you can take months to finish something off and then always know that you have something in the pipeline to do to complete a pinball machine, and then the ultimate payoff for you just has to be the first time you're really plunging and playing what you've completed. I can see that completely being satisfied. Oh, yeah, yeah, especially when you put so many hours into it and then you actually get to play a game on it.
    24:35
    That is a good time. Well, and that kind of goes back to, and we've talked about this before, we do have a homebrew pinball machine that we're working on, and it hasn't taken priority over anything, which is why it's just been taking so long. But even that is where it's fun. It's a lot of work, man, and it's intimidating, and there are things that I don't understand that I know that I'm going to have to ask for help on and that you're going to have to ask for help on. and it's not cost effective if you go past the whitewood stage when you start trying to get somebody in that's going to do art. I'm not drawing artwork for this, and I'm not wanting to Photoshop stuff. I can certainly do that, but there's just so many things that go that are involved in restoring an old pin, but then starting a new pin from scratch, and this is where I appreciate these guys from the homebrew side of things. It's not for the faint at heart. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't try to do this because I think if anybody has the determination, they can absolutely get a nice working pinball machine from a homebrew perspective. But to really get something dialed in and polished where other people want to play it. Well, it's taking it past one, two, and three. Yeah, it really, really is. It really, really is.
    25:48
    Daunting, time-consuming. Well, just the programming. You know, I mean, people ask, you know, how bad, you know, how do you get around doing the cabinets? How about the play fields and stuff like that? Just lining all that stuff up, getting something. Geometry of shots. I mean, I think at this point, getting something physically on the whitewood makes more sense than – I went with the approach of trying to do virtually first, just getting the idea of layout. It was a lot easier for me to mock something else that way. But just need to get something physically on a play field and test out these shots. The thing that most concerns me, because from a mechanical standpoint, I know that you're capable of cabinet. We're capable of mechs and wiring and all that kind of stuff. And you're great at the computer stuff. Well, but not on this, I don't think, because what I think is going to happen, I think the holdup is going to be programming code. I've never, ever, I mean, there's so many variables. Allow this to happen, cancel this if this happens, but you can allow both of these things to run, coincide with one another, but then you can stack with this. But if this happens, then this shuts down. I mean, that's just like, oh, my gosh, you know, just to get one working mode seems like it would be a challenge. Yeah, it would be hard. And writing the first one would probably be terrible. But I'm digging this because I love the fact that we're kind of getting a perspective and appreciation, a new appreciation for what all these guys are doing. A designer, what they have to go through to try to get something that makes sense flow-wise and to make sure that you've got proper spacing underneath the play field for all these mechs to fit next to one another. to have somebody that comes in and not only is able to understand, but to implement a rule set from a code standpoint is huge. Then have somebody come in and make a cohesive art package. And play field artwork is especially difficult because it's not an open canvas. You're working around inserts and ramps and shots and lanes. I mean, that whole thing is kind of crazy. Well, yeah, and you don't want to screw the artwork up because you put inserts in the wrong spot. No, and the artwork is, I mean, for me anyways, it doesn't, it doesn't make or break a game, but it's very influential on if I would want to own one and have it in my basement. If something shot tremendously fun and looked like garbage, I would have to take a pass on it because I don't want it down here. I only have four or five pinball machines. But on the same token, if something shot decent but had an incredible art package, as crazy as it sounds, that would have a better chance of making its way down here at some point than vice versa. No, you know what? It's all what pulls you in. I mean, you're a big attract mode guy. I do love a good track load. I love this stuff too, but you're definitely more passionate about that than I am.
    28:27
    That's where I think we have a good combination, good chemistry, because we have different opinions on different things. I think that's why I'm so picky when I am buying a used game. I mean, I'm so picky about play fields. You've never seen nothing until you watch Ken pull up on a used game and start nitpicking the snot out of it. It sucks, and you don't ever want to do that in front of somebody that's selling a machine, because I honestly think that I am just ultra picky. So what ends up happening is when somebody describes a play field condition to me and they take pics, there's only so much you can see in pictures. But when you go out and you really get to see something and you're like, well, I wasn't expecting that, I wasn't expecting that. But you don't want to insult the person that came over because it's really not their fault. It just I a picky bastard when it comes to this stuff And I don ever try to use it as leverage to pay less than what i had offered but i absolutely without counter offering i i walked away from games and just say you know i'm sorry but the condition was not what i was hoping right this is a great looking game there were a couple things that i wasn't expecting which you know for most people it's not a big deal unfortunately i don't think this is the game for me and and i've said that several times and i've thanked somebody for inviting me in their home and i've walked away so yeah and it's it's It sucks because that lessens the amount of games that are available to me exponentially more than somebody else that doesn't let little minor things bother them. Well, yeah, but you know what? I mean, part of that, too, though, is educating the seller.
    29:54
    I'll never forget the one time I went to go buy a pinball machine from a previous coworker that was moving out of state. They were like, we have this Bailey Escape from the Lost World.
    30:05
    So, okay, great. What kind of condition is it in? Oh, it's beautiful. It plays. We were playing it last night. Great, cool, you know, bring some money and come take a look at it, you know. If not, we can direct you in which way would be the best avenue for you to try and sell this. So, of course, I show up. It's been sitting in a garage for the last 15 years. It had water leaking on the head at some point, and it's a particle board head, so it's fallen apart. The play field has wear on the – Was this the one that was in your garage for a little bit? Yeah, yeah. I remember that. It did play, barely-ish, right? It hadn't been shopped, so the rubbers were hard as a rock. um you know and of course i show up and you know the guy's wife comes out well we know what this is worth we've been on ebay and i'm just thinking to myself you know ebay is like youtube it'll teach you just enough to be dangerous and not really know it's the worst price comp yeah is an ebay listing but so i was there for 45 minutes and i'm like okay pull up your ebay listing that's what this gentleman is hoping to get out of this and look at his game it's spotless the playfield is beautiful it's been shopped the artwork is clean blah blah blah blah so i start you know showing them and i'm like listen i don't need this game i've got 10 in my basement now you know and this is just me trying to educate you on what you have right your cabinet is shot the playfield is worn the head is completely shot the game works but it obviously has errors and because it's been sitting outside for so long it's been you know in this humid mess to a cold tundra you got inserts that are popping. And it's badly lost world. It's not like it's Adels Family Gold here. And I told them, I'm like, listen, in my opinion, and this was a couple years ago, this is a $300 game. Whether you like to believe me or not, that's what I honestly value this game at. For me, it's not worth $300. For me, it's worth $100. And even that, I'm just being kind of generous, you probably would get $300 on Craigslist or whatever you try to sell it. you know and they were like well we're moving and i'm like listen i'm not trying to be rude you know i know you have a couple weeks left you can try and they're like it's not worth the 200 so i bought a valley escape from the lost world for 100 bucks and i wasn't trying to screw them out of money it was just you have to educate the seller sometimes because they don't know because they're the person that bought a pinball machine 15 years ago doesn't know playfield condition you know the boards are bad you know all that stuff well and that kind of sounds like an uneducated seller I've also come into the situation where people that have bought and sold pinball machines for so long that they're used to seeing routed examples or completely beat down examples, when they get something that's mediocre that they're not used to seeing condition-wise, they automatically think it's like unbelievable condition. Yeah. So, and again, that's just what they've been exposed to, what they're normally dealing with when they get something that I think is just above a player condition pin. For them, it's like a near-myth condition pin. And so, again, it's just where you kind of put your own personal scale and values. And I am not a hard person to deal with when buying or selling. I'm very honest and upfront, and I don't waste time. But I am very particular and picky. But that's it, man. It's all perspective. It is all perspective. It's fun. And the chase, finding something that you're looking for and then finding a price that you're willing to pay is just as fun as bringing that thing and setting it up in your house and playing it. Absolutely. The hunt is part of the lure to it. You know what I don't like? I don't like selling machines. And it's not because I don't want to part with them. It's just, unless it's like new in box that I've had for a few months and I'm selling it, I'm always concerned that there's somebody more picky than I am and that I'm going to let somebody down. I mean, I try to go over everything almost to a fault when I'm covering something. And I think maybe sometimes I lessen how much I think I can ask for something because I'm that ultra picky person. But I'd rather be on that safe side than especially when people come from out of state. Yeah. And I've had this happen a couple of times where it's like, dude, here's all the pictures. Here's video. Here's close ups with the game on. Here's close ups with the game off. I don't want you to drive all the way from Michigan or Iowa and then come out here and feel like you've got to renegotiate with me because this is the agreed upon price. And please come out. I've never had anybody second guess that when they've come and they've seen what I've sold. So I've been fortunate that way. No, they've always come out and said, this is a lot nicer than I was thinking. Yeah, I've been told that, man. So that makes me feel good. Yeah. And I like to take care of my stuff, my games, as you do too. I would rather undervalue something and not feel like I ripped somebody off. And, I mean, in this hobby, there's lots of people that do it way the other way. But, you know, I agree with you. Yeah, I guess there's room for everybody to coexist here. Absolutely. But on that note, I think we should probably talk about this week. and what's ahead on the horizon for us. Yep. So we have, as we were talking about earlier in the podcast, we have Todd Tuckey. This interview is going to be taking place Tuesday night. So we're going to knock that out. I'm going to try to take Tuesday night into Wednesday and get that edited up, and we will upload that Wednesday or Thursday. And then on Sunday, we've got Jack Danger coming in the studio to co-host with us. So that'll be fun. So we'll be able to kind of shoot the pinball shizat, so to speak, with Deadflip. The Holla Shataki with Jack Danger. May or may do a little streaming after that, potentially. Not sure how that's going to work out. I don't know what his schedule is. He's been all over the place, and he's in town for a little bit. So he's agreed to come on the show. So a lot of stuff coming from us with the podcast you're listening to right now. Another one will be coming in a few days, which is the Todd Tuckey interview. And then another one a few days after that, which will be the Jack Danger co-hosting with us. So really like three shows in a week. A week, yeah. And then we've got an awesome freaking interview, guys, that's going to be taking place the first week of December. And again, just teasing it because we've got so much that we're trying to offer before we end 2018. I don't want it to get confusing, but I guarantee you guys are going to be down with who we have as an interview there. And then we follow our podcast schedule throughout the end of the year. Then what we're going to do is that special show, which is going to feature over 40 guests on our show. That's going to happen. We're going to launch that on Christmas Eve. That's going to be our gift under the tree, the podcast gift that'll keep on giving probably for a couple hours. That we can give to everybody. Yeah, it's our way of saying thanks and the year on a high note. And that's going to be fun. We'll give you more information about that because that show is going to be crazy. And we are already working on that show. So that'll be really super fun. And then guess what, man? 2019, we just start all over with a new year. We'll be six months into our show, and then we have an opportunity to kind of open up some other avenues show-wise to everybody in 2019. So here's my question for you. Elvira 3, do we see Elvira 3 in 2019? Yeah, for sure. I would say Elvira 3 in 2019, and I would, you know, between that, I'm excited about that. I'm excited to see what Deep Root has. Did you get your tickets to Texas Pinball Festival yet? Did you get your plane fare? No, I think they might have got lost. Come on, man. I live in an unincorporated area, so sometimes... I'm getting ready to get the tickets booked. I would rather be drinking 50-50s going down to Frisco with you instead of flying solo. We talked to the wife about it yesterday. Yeah, what is she saying? Well, she's saying no, but if you know the relationship I have with my wife, that just means I've got to buy her something to make it happen. You know, whatever. We'll figure it out. You know what? Buy her a Wizard of Oz. That'll probably make her happy, and then you can just go to Texas Pinball Festival. Bought her a new car a couple, you know, two weeks ago.
    37:45
    Did Nermal give you a referral? No, no, no, no. But, you know, one of the first things she said is there's absolutely no pinball machines going in this thing. So now I'm looking to buy another pin just to rifle a brand new pinball machine in her brand new Jeep. Yeah, see?
    38:04
    I've been married long enough to know that I do not want to get involved in anything like that. I can't be the only one. So today she said, you're not using my truck to get rid of old paint today. I'm like, challenge accepted. And Ken, what did we drive today? The new truck. With a whole bunch of used paint. A whole bunch of paints. Whatever, man. A car is just a car. You've got to enjoy it. Just like a pinball machine. You can't leave them all in boxes forever. Sounds like a healthy marriage. Exactly. Nicely done. All right. Well, for Ken Cromwell, I'm Will Bill Webb. And you guys have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening, wherever you guys are. Yep. And thanks for listening to episode number 23 of the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast with episodes 24 and 25 all coming within the next seven days. Don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody. This Special When Lit Pinball Podcast is sponsored by our friends at Two Brothers Artisan Brewing and their Pinball Pale Ale. Because nothing goes better together than pinball and beer.