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Episode 199: Pinball Wizard turns 50!

Pinball Profile·podcast_episode·31m 21s·analyzed·May 24, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.031

TL;DR

Pinball Profile celebrates 50 years of 'Pinball Wizard' and interviews programmer Lyman Sheets about Data East's Tommy game.

Summary

Jeff Teolis hosts Pinball Profile Episode 199 celebrating the 50th anniversary of The Who's 'Pinball Wizard' from the 1969 album Tommy. The episode traces the song's history from Pete Townsend's initial reluctance to its status as an iconic rock classic, covers pinball machines inspired by Tommy (Bally's 1975 Wizard and Data East's 1994 Who's Tommy Pinball Wizard), and features an in-depth interview with Lyman Sheets about developing the Data East game under extreme time pressure (six weeks to debut at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade) with 13 modes.

Key Claims

  • Pete Townsend described 'Pinball Wizard' as 'the most clumsy piece of writing he's ever done'

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis citing Pete Townsend's own words about the song's composition

  • The song 'Pinball Wizard' was an afterthought added at the suggestion of music critic Nick Cohn to lighten the dark Tommy album

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis explaining the song's origin story

  • Over 10,000 copies of Bally's 1975 Wizard pinball machine were produced

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis citing production numbers

  • Data East's Who's Tommy Pinball Wizard had to be completed in six weeks to debut at the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade

    high confidence · Lyman Sheets directly stating the deadline: 'we had to get a game ready in like six weeks. It was scheduled to be in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade'

  • Lyman Sheets worked 36-48 hours straight on Tommy to meet the initial six-week deadline

    high confidence · Lyman Sheets: 'I had been there. I can't remember how long it was. It was like 36 or 48 hours straight'

  • The original Tommy prototype had six bumpers that were later reduced to three for budget and performance reasons

    high confidence · Lyman Sheets explaining design revisions: 'the original game had a lot of stuff on it that, you know, working within budgets and whatever else, we just look at like, well, okay, this isn't a good use of our money'

  • Tommy featured a unique 'blind modes' feature where players couldn't see the flippers, a first for pinball at the time

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis and Lyman Sheets discussing the Tommy mode based on the deaf, dumb, and blind theme

  • The 1975 Tommy movie inspired Bally to produce the Wizard pinball machine, though it used knockoff likenesses rather than actual character names

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis: 'Wizard didn't say the who on the machine, but the back glass art had Roger Daltrey and Anne-Margaret knockoffs'

Notable Quotes

  • “It was the most clumsy piece of writing he's ever done.”

    Jeff Teolis (citing Pete Townsend) @ early in episode — Townsend's humble assessment of 'Pinball Wizard,' which became a defining rock classic despite his own doubts about the composition

  • “We had to get a game ready in like six weeks. It was scheduled to be in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade.”

    Lyman Sheets @ mid-episode during interview — Reveals the extreme time pressure and high-profile debut requirement for Data East's Tommy machine

  • “I had been there. I can't remember how long it was. It was like 36 or 48 hours straight, just trying to get as much as we could into the game for this deadline.”

    Lyman Sheets @ mid-episode during interview — Personal account of the grueling work ethic required to complete the game on schedule

  • “The hard part about making the game is making it fun and compelling. The technology is what it is.”

    Lyman Sheets @ late in interview — Reflects Sheets' philosophy on game design priorities, emphasizing gameplay over technical complexity

  • “If I didn't want to play it, then I would just go and light the next mode and start that one. Rip the spinner, hit the buck, and do it again.”

    Lyman Sheets @ late in interview discussing mode timing mechanics — Explains the concurrent mode system on Tommy, which differs from games that force mode completion

  • “For me, I would appreciate it every day when I would walk in and walk through the factory and see hundreds of people making the games. And I mean, that's probably like the best feeling in the world.”

    Lyman Sheets @ mid-interview discussing work satisfaction — Captures Sheets' sense of accomplishment seeing his designs manufactured and distributed

  • “If they want to time out my mode, I made a bad mode, and I need to go back and make it better. That's the way I feel about it anyway.”

    Lyman Sheets @ late in interview — Reflects Sheets' design philosophy: modes should be compelling enough that players choose to play them

Entities

Jeff TeolispersonLyman SheetspersonPete TownsendpersonJoe KaminkowpersonLonnie RopppersonJohn CarpenterpersonKevin MartinpersonRoger DaltreypersonElton Johnperson

Signals

  • ?

    code_update: Sheets demonstrates pragmatic acceptance of post-release code modifications by others; views it as inevitable given his employee status; prioritizes initial work quality he controls rather than resenting later changes

    high · Sheets: 'it's just like kind of human nature to want to, I guess, mess with things' and 'I was an employee at Data East. And then it's their property to decide what they want to do with it'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Tommy's blind modes (unable to see flippers) were a unique innovation for the time, directly inspired by the song's deaf/dumb/blind narrative; included safeguards to prevent unfair ball loss

    high · Lyman Sheets: 'when we tried it out and we were just like, you know, this is pretty cool, and decided to have it in the game' and 'it was something that at least I don't recall anybody had done before'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Lyman Sheets emphasizes that compelling gameplay (fun and entertainment) is the core challenge of pinball design, not technology; advocates for optional modes rather than forcing players through mandatory content

    high · Sheets: 'The hard part about making the game is making it fun and compelling. The technology is what it is.' and 'If they want to time out my mode, I made a bad mode, and I need to go back and make it better.'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Lyman Sheets expresses optimistic sentiment about current pinball industry health, describing it as returning to or within the golden age after several years of growth

    high · Lyman Sheets: 'I think we're getting back to it right now. I think actually we have for a few years.'

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.094

0:00
It's time now for another Pinball Profile. I'm your host, Jeff Teels. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us, pinballprofile at gmail.com. and please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. It's the 50th anniversary of a song that has been synonymous with our sport, the song Pinball Wizard from the album Tommy by The Who, released in 1969. But the song almost never happened. Today we will hear the history of Pinball Wizard. Tommy began as an album and has been performed as a live rock opera. It was made into a very campy mid-70s movie with Tina Turner, Eric Clapton, and Elton John as the ballet table king. In the early 90s, it was made into an award-winning Broadway play and then a traveling show. And of course, it has inspired more than one pinball machine. But let's go back. By 1969, the Who were among those Brit rockers like the Beatles, the Rolling Stones, and the Kinks that were owning the radio airwaves with hit singles of their own, including I Can't Explain, My Generation, I Can See for Miles, Magic Bus, and more. But in 1968, guitarist and songwriter Pete Townsend wanted to tell a story in rock. He dabbled years earlier with the song A Quick One, but the idea of a full rock opera was the main goal. Plus, by the end of the 60s, the music scene was shifting from singles to albums, thanks to bands like the Beach Boys and especially the Fab Four's Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band.
1:49
So Pete came up with this tragic story that included murder, torture, drug use, and sexual abuse. The story has Tommy Walker as a young boy without his father, presumed dead as a casualty of war.
2:14
But when his father comes home after the war, Tommy witnesses his murder by his mother's new lover. The young Tommy was told by his mother, You didn't hear it, you didn't see it, you won't tell nothing to no one what you know isn't true. Sadly, Tommy becomes catatonic from the trauma and becomes deaf, dumb, and blind. His only reactions are through vibrations. He is eventually cured later when he smashes through a mirror and he is deemed a messiah. His followers eventually reject Tommy and he goes back into his dark world trapped in his own mind. See me, feel me, touch me, heal me. Pretty gruesome, pretty dark, no happy ending. That's what music critic Nick Cohn thought when Pete Townsend told him the entire story of the rock opera. Nick suggested to Pete to maybe lighten up the album with at least one song. So after all the songs were done, Pete knew that this music critic was a pinball fanatic. So he thought he'd write a song where Tommy, without sight, sound, and mind, became a pinball wizard. Pete once said it was the most clumsy piece of writing he's ever done. In the song, Tommy reacted to the vibrations and became the pinball champ. And so the music critic then called Tommy the album a masterpiece. And in fact, that afterthought song, Pinball Wizard, was the lead single on that album and it has been played at almost every Who concert ever since. The Who would perform Tommy as a rock hopper in its entirety in concerts. It even played the majority of it at Woodstock a few months later. Pinball Wizard was always a showstopper. The album was remixed with an orchestra and an all-star cast. Rod Stewart sang it on the 1972 album. Ever since I was a young boy, I played the silver ball. From soul down to grind, I must have played them all. Then the big screen version of Tommy hit the theaters in 1975. Roger Daltrey of The Who played Tommy with several rock legends in the film. Reviews of the movie weren't great, but the music was outstanding. Elton John played the Pinball Wizard and released his soundtrack version of the song as a single. Even here in 2019, the new Elton John biopic movie has his version of Pinball Wizard briefly heard in the film. But one other thing the 1975 Tommy movie did was make Bally produce a pinball machine. It was simply called Wizard. There were over 10,000 made. Wizard didn't say the who on the machine, but the back glass art had Roger Daltrey and Anne-Margaret knockoffs. Kind of like 8-Ball used the Fonz look-alike. But funny enough, on the Bally flyer, the pinball company didn't hide the fact that it was inspired from the Tommy movie. Even Anne-Margaret herself appeared on the flyer, which you can see on our Facebook page for Pinball Profile. The game Wizard itself was the first pinball machine to use flip flags, similar to the ones you'd find on the game Flip-Flop. Then in 1976, riding off the success of The Wizard Machine, Bally gave us Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboy. The art was once again done by Dave Christensen, with some subtle and not-so-subtle backglass surprises and bad taste. Even on the wizard backglass, he had Ann-Margaret in a nightie sitting on Tommy's lap. Ann-Margaret's character was Tommy's mother, so pretty inappropriate, to say the least. Even though the Tommy movie didn't fare well, the song Pinball Wizard remained popular on rock radio. The band The Who had a final tour in 1982, only to come back in 1989, and they even opened that tour with a mini version of Tommy. Then in 1992 in San Diego, Pete Townsend and Des McNuff created The Who's Tommy for the theater.

  • “I think we're getting back to [the golden age of pinball] right now. I think actually we have for a few years.”

    Lyman Sheets @ closing remarks — Positive assessment of current pinball industry health

    • Nick Cohn
    person
    Dave Christensenperson
    The Whoorganization
    Data Eastcompany
    Ballycompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Who's Tommy Pinball Wizardgame
    Wizardgame
    Captain Fantastic and the Brown Dirt Cowboygame
    Tommygame
    Pinball Profileorganization

    licensing_signal: Bally's 1975 Wizard avoided direct licensing with The Who, instead using knockoff artist likenesses (Roger Daltrey and Anne-Margaret look-alikes) while the official flyer explicitly referenced the Tommy movie

    high · Jeff Teolis: 'Wizard didn't say the who on the machine, but the back glass art had Roger Daltrey and Anne-Margaret knockoffs' and 'on the Bally flyer, the pinball company didn't hide the fact that it was inspired from the Tommy movie'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Lyman Sheets identifies watching manufactured games leave the factory as primary source of professional satisfaction and reward, emphasizing human fulfillment over technical achievement

    high · Sheets: 'For me, I would appreciate it every day when I would walk in and walk through the factory and see hundreds of people making the games. And I mean, that's probably like the best feeling in the world'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Data East's Who's Tommy Pinball Wizard faced extreme six-week deadline for Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade debut; original prototype featured six bumpers that were cut for budget and performance optimization after test play

    high · Lyman Sheets: 'we had to get a game ready in like six weeks' and 'the original game had a lot of stuff on it that, you know, working within budgets and whatever else, we just look at like, well, okay, this isn't a good use of our money'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Lyman Sheets joined Data East as young, enthusiastic programmer on his first major project (Tales from the Crypt minor role, then Who's Tommy as first hands-on lead); mentored by Joe Kaminkow and Lonnie Ropp; later joined Stern

    high · Jeff Teolis: 'for your first kind of real project, I know you did some ideas and suggestions for Tales from the Crypt, but really this was kind of your first hands-on' and Sheets' career progression

    • 5:54
    It quickly gained popularity and made it to Broadway in 1993. When I saw it in New York, I'm not ashamed to admit that I was so moved within the first five minutes of the show that I was filled with tears of joy. Once again, Tommy and Pinball Wizard were in the forefront. Let's go back 25 years ago from today and 25 years after the Tommy album was released. Unlike the Wizard Pinball knockoff, this time a real Tommy pinball machine was being made, and it came from Data East. It was inspired by the music from the Broadway show of the same name, the game officially called the Who's Tommy Pinball Wizard. It was designed by Joe Kamenkow with programming by Lonnie Ropp, John Carpenter, Kevin Martin, and really the first time we saw activity from Lyman Sheets. Lyman joins us right now to talk about the Tommy Pinball Machine. Hello again, Lyman. How are you? Hi, Jeff. I'm doing okay. How are you? Good. We had some good times in New York City, but we're both back at the grind now at our respective jobs. But I appreciate you talking about this landmark album and, therefore, the games that have come out of it. Yeah, sure. It was a fun project to work on, and I was very happy with how it turned out. You were a young man back in 93, 94, well, we both were, when this kind of came out and you were building on this. But, I mean, for your first kind of real project, I know you did some ideas and suggestions for Tales from the Crypt, but really this was kind of your first hands-on and I know it was exciting for you. And you've done a few music pins since, when you think of Metallica, Guns N' Roses, The Stones, ACDC, but here you are, right in front of you, you've got Tommy the Who. What did that album mean to you growing up and the whole Pinball Wizard thing? Well, I didn't get into playing pinball until a little later in my life, and then I was probably more of a Who fan than I was a pinball fan back then, but the music I was listening to probably younger was The Who, Led Zeppelin, a lot of Black Sabbath, stuff like that but I love their stuff and when I got a chance to work on the know I was really excited about it And from what you told me before as was the case back in the early 90s and with that East the turnaround was pretty quick. I mean, this game had to be made, and your actual time on this and then going to the next game, I mean, it was just bang, bang, bang. So if we look back at this, and we've heard from IPDB that the original game had six bumpers, not the three. Yeah, the original game, to back up maybe a little bit, Joe came in. I don't really know how it came about, but he came in and was like, hey, we're doing this game. Who's Tommy? Based on the Broadway musical play. And then we had to get a game ready in like six weeks. It was scheduled to be in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade. And we pretty much from the time we were told like, hey, this project is a go. Until then, we had six weeks to do everything. So, yeah, the original game had the ramps on it were like kind of longer, sort of took a little time, more time, you know, for the ball to get back, you know, to flip again. And then, yeah, six bumpers. It was kind of like, I guess, the top three, which remained in the game. and then there were three other bumpers, like, kind of, I guess, you know, kind of around where the bumpers are at Funhaus, if you're familiar with that game. I am. There have been a lot of comparisons to Tommy in Funhaus and Tron and those type things, but Tommy was definitely unique, and again, with that six weeks turnaround, not only was it going to be in the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade, but also, didn't you have a bunch of places that you had to tour around? I know the Dallas Hard Rock Cafe and other appearances just to showcase this great machine. Yeah, we learned, I guess, I'm trying to just piece together all the dates and everything. We were, as a promotional sort of thing, we were putting games out in the Dallas area when the show went on their U.S. tour. go to different cities and stop and have the show for, I forget how long it was, maybe a month or two months or, I don't know, a couple of weeks or I forget. But the first stop for that road crew was in Dallas. And so we sent a few games out there, I think five or six, and placed them around, you know, around the city. And then so when they actually performed the show, we went out and did some service calls on the games. Actually, they were all set on free play, and I think we ended up, you know, people put money into the games anyway. You know, I think we ended up with, you know, maybe like $100 worth of quarters that people were putting into games, you know, set on free play. And then, you know, we fixed the games, and then we saw the show in Dallas, which was pretty cool. And then we were invited to a cast party at the Hard Rock Cafe afterwards, you know, and got to meet some of the people in the play and Pete Townsend. So that was pretty cool. You just mentioned probably one of my highlights in radio, too, was when I was first starting out, because I remember seeing that Broadway play at the St. James Theatre in New York. I remember going to see that. I was in love with it and just thought it was spectacular. I think I've seen it four times in three different cities. It came to Toronto. Pete Townsend came. I got to meet him. This was an album that was certainly a very, very dark story, but they've got to jazz it up a little bit for the Broadway show, and there's dancing with rock and roll, so it's a little bizarre, but still the actual story remains the same. I guess that's one of the things I wanted to ask you about, because back in that time of the early 90s, modes were really, really big, and you're a big part of that too. So you've got all these different modes, 12 different modes, and there are some dark themes in the movie, in the album, in the play. I think of Cousin Kevin and Fiddle About and Acid Queen. How did you kind of work around those to make them, okay, maybe a little less heavy, a little lighter and more pinball themed? Sure. You know, I think today things would probably be a little bit different if we were to do the game over again. Or maybe not. I'm not sure. I mean, for us, where it's a licensed property, we just want to try to make the experience, you know, for the player true to the license and entertaining and everything else. And I mean, yeah, there's some dark things, but at the same time, that's what that property is. And, you know, to kind of not have those things in that like, well, OK, you know, whatever you want to say, danced around it or decided not to do this or that or whatever. But, you know, we really just wanted to have a good representation of what, you know, the story was about in the game. So really just that. One thing I love that you added, and I don't know whether it was you or Kevin or John or Lonnie, but it's so unique, and in fact, it carries over to other games. When we're playing dollar games for fun, it doesn't matter what the machine is, a lot of times you'll hear people say, okay, let's play, but we're playing Tommy mode, and that, of course, is where you can't see the flippers. You throw dollar bills maybe in front of it, and you can't see the flippers. Sick idea, Lyman. It's tough to do, but it's there. It's in the, I guess, fifth stage of the multi-ball, but you can also have that little code to do it before you start. It's fun. Yeah, it was, you know, I guess the literal translation of deaf, dumb, and blind, the last part. Yeah, and when we tried it out and we were just like, you know, this is pretty cool, and decided to have it in the game. And then there's always that, like kind of when it first happens, like, hey, what's going on here? and the design of it, once people get over the kind of surprise and then, you know, a little bit of the fear of, like, well, I'm going to lose the ball and all of that. Once we designed in some of the safeguards to, you know, okay, the multi-ball is over and the blinders retract and, you know, you get, like, a little bit of time where you can still lose the ball and not really be penalized. But, yeah, and it's, I mean, it's a lot of fun. And the cool thing about it, too, was it fit really well into the scene. And also it was something that at least I don't recall anybody had done before. When you think of all the different modes, and there's only so much you can do on a pinball machine, but you've got really 13. There's Christmas and Cousin Kevin, Holiday Camp, Light Extra Ball, Silver Ball, Captain Walker, Smash the Mirror, Fiddle About, Acid Queen. There's a doctor, Tommy Scoring, which we just talked about, Sally Simpson, and then Pinball Wizard. That's a lot to do in a pinball machine, and you have to have a lot of different varieties. There's only so many shots you can do, but you seem to manage it. And how hard is that for you to come up with all the different ideas when you've got that many different modes that you want to put on the machine? Well, when we started, and again, like just having a licensed game and some stories to tell and designing the game too, a lot of it is just, you know, sometimes it's very easy and sometimes it's very difficult. So in this case, it was kind of a little bit easier with the storylines to do modes. And again, for me, I think with a game like Tommy, I think we do a better job of making the modes feel a little different. You know, like the Sally Simpson mode. It's like she's on her motorized vehicle or whatever you want to call it, riding around and stuff. and it just made sense to do it on the ramps because they were eventually, you know, they made out of stainless and shortened them up a lot much faster than the original design. And, you know, when you play the game, you just kind of figure this stuff out, like what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. And you right like the way the story is there a lot of stuff that we want to include in the game And I don know I think there a good you know a good representation of you know what the play is about and include in the game I don know I think there a good representation of what the play is about and conveyed in the game to everybody So, I mean, like I said, I'm pretty happy with how it turned out. I just think of today in 2019, and if you were given the task, here, you've got six weeks to do this, I need 13 modes, let's go. There's no way you could do it. Yeah, well, you know, like we were laughing earlier, When I started on the game, I was young and energetic.
    16:08
    Lonnie took a picture one time that he gave to me. I guess we had been there, I had been there. I can't remember how long it was. It was like 36 or 48 hours straight, just trying to get as much as we could into the game for this deadline. In this case, it's kind of like one of those one-time things. It's like nobody's ever going to come to you and say, like, get a game done in six weeks. Every game. It's just not sustainable. But for this one, we're like, yeah, you know, we'll give it a shot, kill ourselves for a little while to get it done. And then, you know, after we made sort of like the initial six weeks, like we've got to have these games ready for this deadline, we did go back and take a little break and pause and say, like, okay, we put the game out on test and we looked at the earnings compared to some other things. We're like, all right, we need to make a couple of changes to some things in the game. And it was like overkill, like six pop bumpers. The original game had a lot of stuff on it that, you know, working within budgets and whatever else, we just look at like, well, okay, this isn't a good use of our money on the game, our budget. So it went, you know, through some redesign. And we had obviously time after that where we could just work a little bit more not as chaotic and crazy to finish it up. But again, when you're young and excited just to be doing pinball, and it's a Tommy game, I mean, yeah, I guess, all right, let me do it. I'll sleep later, right? That's crazy. Right. Not anymore. We're like, no, no, no, no.
    17:45
    Well, it's much harder now. For sure. As we look at the game, you are certainly a big part of the displays that you see. I know that John Carpenter did the single reel display when you see the single player. But, again, very, very exciting to see this game stand up years later and the work you did on that display. Pretty impressive. Yeah, I'm happy with how it turned out.
    18:10
    I wasn't, you know, my first project in programming anything in a pinball machine, pretty much. And, I don't know, I just feel like, you know, hey, I want to do a decent job and make it look nice and everything. and, you know, it was really enjoyable working with, you know, Lonnie and Kevin, like collaborating on the game rules and everything. But, you know, I guess in the end, like doing programming, display programming, you know, I spent a lot of time on it. And to me, I felt like it was, you know, like kind of thoughtful with how the transitions were done based on the flow of the game and everything else. I think I spent, you know, a lot of time thinking about how all of that would work just to make it feel like it flowed like how the game flows when you play it. And I don't know. Yeah, it's a lot of work, but I was pretty happy with it. You weren't there long at Data East, but again, being young and getting right into pinball, it had to be a lot of fun. What are some of your favorite memories there at Data East? Some of my favorite memories coming in, I really felt like Joe especially and Lonnie, Lonnie especially, was just so excited to see myself and Kevin come into the company and really want to contribute and work hard and try to make the game better. And it's just a great thing to see. And it really helps to motivate everybody to work harder and do a better job. And a lot of pinball is, how do I want to say it? It's like you spend, to me, the hard part about making the game is making it fun and compelling. The technology is what it is. I mean, like the software work and the technical work, to me, aren't really the hard things to do or the bottlenecks. It's really just trying to make the game fun for people. And it was just great to see a lot of the people coming into the company at that time just have the desire and the energy to want to make a difference. With all the games that are being turned around, was it kind of tough to see, okay, boy, I'm so proud of what I've done here. Oh, now on to the next project. You don't even really get to enjoy the satisfaction of the game. I mean, you can see how it earns on location and stuff, but it's like getting a new toy and you're like, oh, this is the best. I want to play it. Oh, I got another new toy and another new toy. It's almost like you were spoiled, but was there a time to appreciate it? Oh, sure. There was. For me, I would appreciate it every day when I would walk in and walk through the factory and see hundreds of people making the games. And I mean, that's probably like the best feeling in the world to have just sort of that sense of accomplishment of making something and then seeing people make the machines and then knowing that they're going to get out into the world and entertain people. So that's always been, for me, like kind of the reward for doing all of this crazy stuff is, you know, in the end, hopefully we just make people happy. Lyman, obviously you and the team, Lonnie and Joe and even John and Kevin, were very excited when this was ready to go. After the prototype, after you changed everything up, you've got all the modes, it's ready to go out, it's ready to earn, it's being manufactured. You're satisfied. How do your feelings change when it goes out on location, if it does or doesn't earn? In the sense that, you know, when you put it out, when it goes to production, you're thinking, okay, this is the best we can do. We're really proud of it. Boom. It's now up to the public to decide whether or not they like the game. And in this case, they did. But how does that change whether it's this game or other games? Is it discouraging? Is it exciting to see something that you think, okay, it's a lot of hard work. You want to see everybody love it. So I'm just curious what that trepidation is like when a game goes out. Sure. You know, it's always, I guess, like a learning process because I don't think there's ever been a situation where a game has gone out that I've worked on and then the result ends up being meeting my expectations of what, you know, I feel like it's going to do. And, you know, I think in the case of Tommy back early 90s, it was close enough to the late 70s where I think the general public really wanted not a Broadway play, not a game about a Broadway play, but they wanted like Who music. you know they wanted to who's tommy but like the who and you know i think in that respect had we done that then i think it probably might have done a little bit better than the play but now if we were to do if tommy is a play were to come out now i don't know i mean i think it probably would have done better than when we came out with it in uh in the early 90s i mean a lot of it has to do with timing i mean i guess a good example would be like maybe Circus Voltaire you know when Circus Voltaire came out because it was a little more kind of like an artsy game that was I don't know a little out of the mainstream you know maybe a decade or two later I think people have a little more appreciation for it than you know than when it came out So I probably not explaining it very well but that probably about the best I can do No, I think I get what you're saying, too, about the timing. You know, when the game is done, you're thinking, OK, we're satisfied with what we've done. We're not putting out anything substandard. The only thing I can kind of think of is something that's happened not too long ago in your career when there was the rush to get Batman 66 out, but you knew more code was going to come. So the game is one of everybody's favorite games, mine included too, because it just gets better and better and better with code. So you knew when that went out it was a lower version, I guess you would say, in the sense that the code was not close to being at 100%, but you knew good things were going to come. So was that kind of the only time you felt, okay, it's out, but just wait, it'll get better? Yeah, I mean, I think, Batman aside, there's always, you know, I was trying to think because when I was at Williams doing stuff there, I kept fixing bugs in the games that I worked on. And eventually that got out to people before the company closed, thankfully. And then you just maybe realize I did some improvements back before I left Data East to Tommy. I added, you know, I think I added an option to disable the video mode. It would give you 25 million points instead of, you know, you having to play it. And I added some high scores. I think I added, like, Tommy Champion and Pinball Wizard Champion. And I changed the holiday camp mode on the captive ball instead of counting down. I had it count up. You know, it's just such a tough shot over there. And then, you know, you shoot for it and it's super risky of just, like, going down the right side after you shoot it. And then as it counts down, you really get one or two shots of it. And then you're kind of like, well, I want to play this because it's not worth the risk. And then, but as it counts up, you know, I think I started at it. Maybe I started at $20 million and counted it up to $40 million. Or maybe it was started at $15 million and counted up to $30 million. You know, I'd have to check. But just some small improvements to the game. And then I gave Lonnie a set for his game. I had a set for mine, and then I gave my buddy Dallas a set for his game. And, yeah, I mean, maybe someday we could go back and put it out. But I guess somebody else did some changes to Tommy rules or code or whatever since then. How do you feel when somebody goes and changes code and puts it out there? If it's code of yours, for example.
    26:11
    Well, I don't know. I mean, it's just like kind of human nature to want to, I guess, mess with things and then maybe improve things or maybe not improve things. But, you know, obviously with the intention of improving things, you know, I think it's just a fact of life with what it is. I mean, at some point you make a, I don't know, anything. You create something. And for me, I was an employee at Data East. And then it's their property to decide what they want to do with it. So I think for me, it's just something you deal with. And it's like you try and make it as good as you can or make sure you're satisfied with your work while you're able to change it. And then just know that somebody else is probably maybe going to do something with it. So it doesn't really bother me at all. It's just what people do. I know on some games, and I think of a game like, let's say, Roller Coaster Tycoon, where people might time out a bunch of the modes. I imagine when the games first came out, the players weren't timing out modes. And you might see that now on a few of the modes on Tommy, just because certain shots are extremely difficult, and maybe the reward isn't worth the risk, or they're trying to progress to somewhere else on the Union Jack. Yeah, there's no real penalty for timing out modes on Tommy because they all can run concurrently. So, Roller Coaster Tycoon, if you're in a mode, it can't start the next mode until I'm done with the current one. But on Tommy, I mean, you could start a mode. They were all timed, and a couple of them were multi-balls. But, I mean, for the most part, I would start a mode. And if I didn't want to play it, then I would just go and light the next mode and start that one. Rip the spinner, hit the buck, and do it again. Yeah, and for me, I enjoy that design better than forcing someone to play a mode. I mean, if they want to time out my mode, I made a bad mode, and I need to go back and make it better.
    28:18
    That's the way I feel about it anyway. I don't think it happens very often on your games, Simon, so I don't think you need to worry about it. Well, hopefully most of them are worthwhile to play or entertaining, or hopefully both. That's, I guess, the end goal. But, yeah. They talk about that era being the golden age of pinball and, you know, the 80s, late 80s, early 90s and stuff. I think we're getting back to it right now. I think actually we have for a few years. But those are some fun times for sure. You weren't at Data East long, but quite an impact with Tales from the Crypt, Guns N' Roses, Maverick, WWF Royal Rumble, and, of course, Tommy. Lyman, thanks for everything that you do. I wish you the best of luck at Stern Pinball, and I'm always excited to see what's next. Thanks a lot, Jeff. To this day, you'll hear the song Pinball Wizard in various forms. Sure, it's overplayed in our pinball world, but being overplayed doesn't make it a bad song. It's just overplayed. So is Stairway to Heaven and Freebird, but those are masterpieces of rock. Many times today, news pieces will refer to champs, male or female, as a pinball wizard. Before, I didn't think anything of it because I didn't associate the word wizard as male or female. That's just my own ignorance of the history of the word, but I also blame Harry Potter for this. After all, it is the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, and Hermione is a main character. Stupid me, I assumed she was also a wizard. But when people on social media started groaning about the term wizard when associated to female pinball champs, I checked the source of my misconception, and from the Wizarding World of Harry Potter, it says, and I quote, Mr. and Mrs. Granger were introduced to the Wizarding World in much the same way that most muggles are. They received a letter from Hogwarts, which revealed their daughter Hermione to be a muggle-born witch. Okay, now I know. Still today, the song Pinball Wizard has been referenced by many. Bruce Springsteen refers to the song in his song Sandy.
    30:11
    Even SpongeBob SquarePants has an episode called Sweet and Sour Squid. It features a parody of Pinball Wizard. Plankton sings a song about Squidward on the clarinet. The song Clarinet Wizard includes the line, this strange-looking blue guy sure plays a mean clarinet. Jack Black, who was recently filmed at pinball locations, including the Pinball Hall of Fame in Vegas, he had his comedy rock group Tenacious D perform the song in concert as part of a medley of songs from Tommy. So there you have it. Happy 50th birthday to Pinball Wizard, one of the most iconic rock songs and riffs in rock history. This has been your Pinball Profile. You can find our group on Facebook. We're also on Twitter at Pinball Profile. Email us pinballprofile at gmail.com. and please subscribe on either iTunes, Stitcher, or Google Play. Up next, episode 200. I'm Jeff Teelis. Ever since I was a young boy, I played the silver ball. From Soho down to Brighton, I must have played them all. I ain't seen nothing like him in any amusement hall. That kept on blackin'. Sure plays the big pinball.