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Episode 105 – Planes, Cows and Pinball Machines

Head2Head Pinball·podcast_episode·1h 22m·analyzed·Aug 19, 2019
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.020

TL;DR

Brisbane Masters recap, Haggis Pinball update, and tournament game design analysis.

Summary

Head2Head Pinball Episode 105 features Martin and Joe Lemire discussing the Brisbane Masters tournament (featuring international champion Colin Urban winning multiple events), Haggis Pinball delayed Celts machine announcement, analysis of tournament game design philosophy, and observations on games like Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle, Houdini, and Batman 66. The episode deals with audio quality issues but covers significant tournament results, emerging manufacturers, and deep discussion on what makes pinball machines tournament-viable.

Key Claims

  • Colin Urban won nearly all Brisbane Masters events, including the main championship, at approximately age 16

    high confidence · Martin directly reporting on Brisbane Masters results; stated 'Colin was winning absolutely freaking everything'

  • Haggis Pinball cancelled their scheduled Brisbane Masters launch of 'Celts' machine due to incomplete development, but will officially reveal at Chicago Pinball Expo later in the year

    high confidence · Martin speaking directly: 'they did cancel the launch...It was almost there or thereabouts, but it just wasn't 100% playable...they will officially reveal this at Chicago Pinball Expo'

  • Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle is Spooky's best game to date

    high confidence · Joe stating 'I think it's by far their best game,' Martin agreeing 'Oh, without a doubt'

  • Steve Ritchie appeared at Brisbane Masters and may appear on the Head2Head A A Pinball Podcast

    medium confidence · Martin: 'I finally got to meet Steve Ritchie...he said he wanted to [come on the show]'

  • The Brisbane Masters was a 10-day festival of pinball with 15+ different event formats held at the Brisbane Showgrounds during a regional agricultural show

    high confidence · Martin detailing the event structure and venue

  • Nate Shivers has retired the Coast to Coast Pinball podcast and is launching new podcast series including 'Stern Insider' and a Roger Sharpe historical series

    high confidence · Martin: 'he has retired the Coast to Coast Pinball podcast...he's going to be doing effectively the Stern Insider podcast...he's also got another series of podcasts coming out'

  • Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle uses non-standard pinball rules and shot layout compared to modern convention, making it feel distinctly different from contemporary games

    high confidence · Martin: 'Forget what you know about pinball rules in modern times. This game does not play by those rules...it just throws all those rules out'

  • Good tournament games require multiple strategic options; games like Black Knight that force repetitive single-strategy play are less engaging for tournament competition

Notable Quotes

  • “Podcasting is hard, guys.”

    Martin @ early in episode — Self-aware acknowledgment of the audio quality issues and terminology mix-ups in the episode

  • “I've seen what the art looks like. I've now seen a bit of gameplay. I've heard a bit of the music. Guys, I reckon this is actually going to be a really good machine.”

    Martin @ Haggis Pinball section — Positive assessment of upcoming Haggis Pinball's Celts machine despite delayed launch

  • “The thing about Alice Cooper is it is not a conventional layout...persist because once you adjust and you start finding those shots, it becomes a lot of fun.”

    Martin @ Alice Cooper discussion — Key insight into why Alice Cooper stands out as distinctive in modern pinball landscape

  • “The reason I'm bringing this up is I decided to stand next to the machine for quite some time and watch people play...The biggest feedback I got was I didn't know what I was shooting for.”

    Martin @ Alice Cooper analysis — Observational evidence supporting the claim that unconventional layouts create accessibility challenges

  • “The sign of a good tournament game that does that is when you're watching a stream and you're watching the four best players in the world playing a game and they're attacking it differently. That's the sign.”

    Martin @ Tournament game design discussion — Proposes measurable criterion for evaluating tournament game quality

  • “Deadpool is probably one of the better ones...you're bringing in...battles and quests and with multiballs. But you can change what you're doing based on the situation of the game.”

    Martin @ Tournament game comparison section — Identifies Deadpool as exemplar of multi-strategic tournament design

  • “When it first came out people were sort of like obviously so freaking cool on it. Cool meaning not great. And it has. It's become a legendary game because of the code.”

    Martin @ Batman 66 discussion — Documents code update trajectory transforming Batman 66 from lukewarm reception to legacy status

Entities

MartinpersonJoe LemirepersonColin UrbanpersonEscher LefkoffpersonSteve RitchiepersonNate Shiversperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Brisbane Masters 10-day festival featuring 15+ event formats; Colin Urban dominated competition at age ~16, winning nearly all categories; demonstrates emerging international player talent and Australian tournament infrastructure maturity

    high · Martin detailed tournament structure, results, and international participation

  • ?

    machine_intel: Haggis Pinball (Australian startup) delayed The Celts launch from Brisbane Masters; rescheduled official reveal for Chicago Pinball Expo with refinement focus on code, gameplay stability, and production quality

    high · Martin: 'they did cancel the launch...just wasn't 100% playable...will officially reveal this at Chicago Pinball Expo'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle and Houdini represent departure from modern pinball convention with non-standard shot layouts and rule structures; both receive positive reviews from experienced players but create accessibility barriers for casual/new players

    high · Martin observational analysis: 'people playing...didn't know what I was shooting for' and positive personal assessment of both machines

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Multi-strategy games (Deadpool, Guardians of the Galaxy, Batman 66, Metallica, Iron Maiden) superior for tournament play versus single-strategy games (Black Knight, Party Zone, Earthshaker); best tournament games enable diverse player approaches visible in professional streams

    high · Extended Martin/Joe discussion analyzing tournament game design; examples: Black Knight lacks variety, Deadpool/Batman 66 enable multiple strategic paths

  • ?

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.055

0:00
Music Welcome everybody to a public service announcement on behalf of the Head2Head Pinball Podcast. I completely screwed up the audio on this episode. I was recording out of my hotel room and then the airport and my microphone wasn't working so it picked up the wrong mic and the audio is, yeah, it's very questionable at best. So as I was editing I was thinking maybe I'll scrap the episode this week but then people will get angry faces and all that kind of stuff and hate mail. So I figured I'd release this piece of shit anyway. No, it's actually quite good but you will have to endure the audio. Halfway through we go from hotel room to airport. Have fun. There's still lots of good things that we spoke about. Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 105 and my name's Martin and with me... Joe Lemire. Joe Lemire, how are you? Good. I spent the whole most of the day playing Jurassic Park, so that can't be a bad day, right? Okay, well, we'll talk more about that in a sec. I do have a quick question for you. I didn't do it. What's the definition of eminent domain? I know, right? The definition of public domain is what I described and yet named it eminent domain, which is a completely different thing. That's just for the government being a dick. Yes, I like to, like, I got like three or four messages about that. I'm like, I know what it means. And I know what both of them are. I don't know why I described one while you named it the other one. I don't know. Podcasting is hard, guys. Okay. And the real copper here is that Martin didn't know what the fuck it was. I was talking about, so it's his fault that he didn't correct me. Because I knew you were referring to public domain, right? But as you were saying eminent domain, I was thinking, ah, maybe that's another name for it. I'd never heard of the phrase eminent domain, so I didn't know. Completely different thing. That's when the government can seize your land. Yeah. So. Yeah. I just thought I'd start with that. I think that's probably your first official correction. So, not bad. You've done well.
2:46
I've said some other things that, again, described the right thing, used the wrong word. I don't think that's the first time I've done that. I don't know why my brain and my mouth don't communicate properly. Yeah, anyway, it was lots of fun and it was good to get some fantastic feedback on it. So, thanks everybody. Yeah. That was awesome.

high confidence · Martin and Joe's extended discussion: 'the ones that force you...have multiple strategies are obviously much more interesting' vs Black Knight where 'people are pretty much doing the same thing over and over'

  • “They rushed the game out so that Adam West could be involved with it because he was sick, which I think is something th[at]”

    Martin @ Batman 66 final remarks — References production decision prioritizing celebrity licensing/involvement over code completion

    • Ryan
    person
    Jason Lambertperson
    Lisa Conroyperson
    Danielle Peckperson
    Emily Cossumperson
    Holly Millsperson
    Damienperson
    Georgiaperson
    Gregperson
    Rob Millerperson
    Bowen Kerinsperson
    Haggis Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    This Week in Pinballmedia
    Celtsgame
    Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castlegame
    Houdinigame
    Batman 66game

    product_strategy: Stern Pinball implementing exclusive subscriber-only podcast content (Stern Insider) with browser-based delivery; some audience friction over accessibility (podcast catcher compatibility, cross-browser issues) but perceived as adding value to subscription tier

    high · Martin discussing Nate Shivers' transition: 'exclusive content...first one's free and then the next one, if you are an insider, you get access'

  • ?

    content_signal: Nate Shivers (Coast to Coast host) restructuring podcast portfolio: retiring original series, launching Stern Insider series, creating Roger Sharp historical/interview series (focusing on Harry Williams origins); suggests shift toward manufacturer partnership and niche content

    high · Martin: 'retired Coast to Coast...doing effectively the Stern Insider podcast...Roger Sharp thing...series of podcasts...bit confusing...what is this other thing'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Batman 66 transformation from lukewarm initial community reception ('not great') to legendary status due to code development and rules depth; demonstrates importance of post-launch code investment in determining long-term game reputation

    high · Martin: 'When it first came out people were...not great...It's become a legendary game because of the code'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Emerging tension between community demand for design innovation/differentiation and player accessibility; unconventional games (Alice Cooper, Houdini) praised by enthusiasts but create barriers for casual/new players; manufacturers face sustainability risk if accessibility is sacrificed for novelty

    high · Martin expressing concern: 'I worry about the sustainability of companies...want them to release machines that are accessible to people' vs desire for different layouts

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Brisbane Masters 7-round tournament over compressed timeframe exhausted experienced players (Martin crashed in final rounds despite strong mid-tournament standing); demonstrates tournament structure impact on player performance and sustainability concerns for extended event formats

    medium · Martin: 'all the travel...just sort of caught up with me...I was so freaking tired...didn't qualify...crash and burned'

  • ?

    venue_signal: Brisbane Masters leveraged regional agricultural show venue (Brisbane Showgrounds/Ekka) combining pinball tournament infrastructure with family entertainment (petting zoo, animals, rides, show bags); suggests emerging venue partnership model for tournaments beyond dedicated pinball arcades

    high · Martin describing venue: 'regional show...showcasing animals, like cows...petting zoo...rides...show bags'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Steve Ritchie attended Brisbane Masters as apparent Stern ambassador; noted hearing challenges but friendly, accessible demeanor; positive community reception suggests investment in in-person industry relationship-building and designer visibility at events

    medium · Martin: 'finally got to meet Steve Ritchie...his hearing's not great...he was great...great ambassador for Stern and for Pinball...may come on our show'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Batman 66 exemplifies rules depth and strategic layering: multiple villain paths, multiplier accumulation, mini-villain chains, villain escape mechanic, and bat-turn mechanics enable varied approaches at different skill/score requirement levels; designer Lyman created asymmetric strategic options

    high · Joe's detailed breakdown of Batman 66 options: 'super skill, start a villain...different tiers of strategies...bat turn, 2x scoring, mini-villains'

    • 3:06
    We've got some news to get through. I'm not sure how long this is going to go for. I'm still in Brisbane after two days of the Brisbane Masters and I'm about to get kicked out of my hotel room. So let's see how we go. We may, you know, continue this at the airport. That's what my life has become. One minute I'm in America, the next minute I'm in Brisbane, just all over the shop at the moment. They clearly don't know who you are. You just have to explain that to them. I know. Oh, I had no idea. Well, you can please stay in the hotel. It's fine. Please stay in. Here's a free upgrade. Anyway, so a couple of things to cover. First one is Coast to Coast. So, Nate Shivers. So, he has retired the Coast to Coast Pinball podcast, or has he?
    3:56
    So, in his last sort of farewell podcast, there was a bit of a cryptic message at the end, and we did catch wind of the fact that he's going to be doing effectively the Stern Insider podcast. But he's also got another series of podcasts coming out. Did you see that, Joe? I saw the Stern side of it, and I saw the post that announced that, and with Keefe, and then a Roger Sharp thing that I haven't listened to. I'm going to get to it at this point. I'm getting to it this week. But the whole thing was kind of a little confusing of, like, is it still Coast to Coast? And what is this other thing? And do you have to pay for that other thing? Well, yeah, so I think there's actually now two podcast series. So Coast to Coast, he's continuing now with some Roger Sharp. There's like a series of Roger Sharp where he's talking about Roger Sharp and his sort of, I guess, the history and the interviews that he's done. So the first one focuses on Harry Williams and the Stern Insider podcast. And I believe the first one's free and then the next one, if you are an insider, you get access to it. So, you know, why not? We need to charge more. Probably. Well, I think the whole thing about the Stern Insider, and I guess with any sort of insider program, like, you know, This Week in Pinball with their, I think that's their LE, whatever it is, as soon as you put stuff in those exclusive, they become public within seconds anyway. So at least this way you've got exclusive content, I guess. Yeah, you have more control over it because it's on a browser, so you can't get it. I saw a lot of people complaining that they couldn't get it on their podcatcher or anything to play in the car and they had to deal with browsers and certain browsers didn't work and this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Yeah.
    5:49
    Anyway, it's all good. These people are putting content out there for you if they want to charge for it. So be it. I think it actually just adds a bit of value to the Stern Insider program. So well done there. Yeah, I think it'll do well for what their plan is probably. Before I sort of do a bit of a recap on the Brisbane Masters, I just want to talk about Haggis Pinball. We've talked about Haggis Pinball, Joe. I'm still not sure that you know exactly what Haggis Pinball is, but, you know, it's an Australian pinball company that are going to be producing machines. And their first machine is called the Celts, which is effectively, it's based on the Highland Games of Scotland. And I'm assuming that's what it is. And it was to be released at Brisbane Masters this weekend. And guess what? It wasn't. And I think that's a good reason because I think it's a good decision is what I meant to say, because I think when you're going to go out there with your machine for the first time, you really want it to be, well, not necessarily perfect, because I don't think any prototype machine is ever going to be perfect. But you want to make a really good first impression. You know, they say you can only have one, you only get one opportunity to make a first impression. So they did cancel the launch and I did speak to Damien and Georgia and also Greg from Haggis. They were actually there, they just didn't have their machine. And I'm glad that they canceled the launch. It was almost there or thereabouts, but it just wasn't 100% playable. I think they had some ball issues.
    7:32
    So it has been delayed. But this is what I will tell you. I've seen a little bit of it. Well, I don't know whether I should say this, but I'm going to anyway. Are you holding out on me, Martin? Forgive me, Hager's Pinball, if I'm saying too much. But I've now seen some – I've seen more than most people. I've seen what the art looks like. I've now seen a bit of gameplay. I've heard a bit of the music. Guys, I reckon this is actually going to be a really good machine. Now, I've said that before and things didn't pan out, but I'm looking forward to this. And they're now going to officially reveal this at Chicago Pinball Expo later in the year. So I think that's a good idea. Just get a couple more months to get it right, get it playing well, you know, iron out some bugs, develop the code a bit more, get your marketing material together, you know, your promos, your flyers, your video, whatever you want to do, and then launch it with a big bang rather than rushing it. And they will also then have it at the event that I'm helping run, which is Flipout, which is the 25th, 27th of October in Melbourne. So you'll get to see it there. I haven't seen, and then you're keeping everything from me, so what do you want me to say, Myron? I mean, you're not sharing any of these things with me. I'm not, because when people say, don't share this, I don't share it. You just talk about it, the fact you've seen it. I will talk about it.
    9:04
    So there you go. So yeah, so as I said, the Brisbane Masters just happened and we talked about this a while ago and it was the 10 days of Pinball in Brisbane and surrounding areas. And I only did the last two days and it was freaking grueling. So if you think about Pinball being five rounds of four games, this is seven rounds of three games and still just as gruelling but without all the weights in between.
    9:39
    And we actually had some international celebrities, I guess, come out for it, being Colin Urban, Esher Lefkopf and Bowen Kerenz. And what do you think happened?
    9:53
    All I saw was that Colin was winning absolutely freaking everything that he was touching. Just everything. Yeah. Just everything. Foreign invaders were taking. Specifically him was crushing everything. So he, I think, all but one event, I think he won, including, oh, spoiler alert, because people get funny when we announce these things, so if you don't want to know who won the Bersel Masters, don't listen now. But effectively he won that too. And how old is he? I think 16 maybe. I don't really know. But again, just sort of just recapping what happened, right? So these are the events that happened. You've got a pump and dump, I was like on day one. Then you have a classics target match play, then a classics flip frenzy, then a 10 strikes fair strikes competition, then a split flipper competition. Then you've got a mini match play, you've got the standard meet for the Brisbane Pinball Club, you've then got the standard meet for the Pinball Club at Koolangatta, you've then got a Herb Style, you've got a Three Strikes competition, you've got the Queensland Women's Championship, you've got the Random Pairs Pinball Side competition, you've got then the main Brisbane Masters, and then you've got a Store Ball, and then you've got a Flip Frenzy. That's a lot of events, don't you reckon? Yeah, that's crazy. I assume the one he didn't win was the Split Flipper one.
    11:19
    Possibly. So it was just a lot of events. And there were people that were here for that entire event. And that's a lot of pinball. And it's the first time I've been to it. And it's at the Brisbane Showgrounds, or it's called the Eka. So it's actually like a, almost like a, it's a regional show. So it's showcasing animals, like cows and there was pig racing and stuff like that. If she hears this, she's going to be like, all right, we're going next year, right? We're going.
    11:57
    You can play pinball and I'm going to go cuddle tons of animals. Well, there was a petting zoo and all that kind of stuff. So there was all that. And these things, like each of the capital cities have these kinds of events, like the Royal Sydney Show or the Royal Melbourne Show. They're all sort of the same and they do that. There's horses and cows and, you know, animals, but there's also rides and show bags and, you know, side alleys and stuff like that to do. Sounds like what the Big E is here.
    12:28
    The what? The Big E, it's the Eastern States Expedition or Expo, which is just its... Exposition, yeah, something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exhibition? Exhibition, there you go. And it's for all of the New England states and it's a huge fair that goes on for like a few weeks.
    12:47
    Sounds similar. Yeah, that's what it is. So we just literally had this whole shed effectively for the people tournament and it was just freaking... Awesome. It was great to catch up with people. It was great to play some pinball. I didn't do all that well, if we're honest. Well, I say that in that I, like after about the fifth round, I was sitting in like top, I want to say like top 15, so maybe 15 or 16 out of 160 people. And I think the way it worked, I think if you were in the top 50, you got through to A finals of some kind. So they went to A down to C or maybe D.
    13:30
    The last two rounds, I crashed and burned. And by crashed and burned, you may think, oh, okay, maybe you got a few points here and there. No, I didn't. I actually came last in all games bar one in the last two rounds. Wow. And look, it just was that all the travel that I've done just sort of caught up with me. My brain wasn't working. I was like missing shots by a mile. My brain was not working, so I was constantly in danger. But it's not like the other three players were way ahead and I was low. I was sort of there or thereabouts, but I was just the bottom in all of them, and I sort of bombed out and didn't qualify. But I was kind of okay with that. I was just so freaking tired. Did you beat Ryan?
    14:22
    No, I didn't. I was beating him. He had the opposite of me. He was really bad at the beginning of the day and then just came good at the latter half. And then he overtook me and he was fine. He just had more stamina. I didn't. So anyway. So I know. That's what happened. So as I've said before, So the winner was Colin Urban. The final two was actually Colin versus Escher, Escher Lefkoff. That was great to watch. And then I think third and fourth, I can't remember who came third and fourth, but it was Bowe and Karens and Jason Lambert. Jason being our, effectively, our number one player. So, you know, it was good to watch. I'll link the, in the show notes, I'll link to the stream. It was good to watch. There was laughter. There was tears. There was tragedy. There was triumph. There was everything. And the only other ones, it was a good time. The only one, the Flip Frenzy that was last night, Lisa Conroy won that. She absolutely just destroyed. And there was also the Queensland competition, which was the women's comp. And Emily Cossum was fourth. Holly Mills, I love Holly Mills. She was third. Lisa Conroy second. And Danny Peck from New Zealand, she came first.
    15:38
    And a couple of other things that happened as well as this event. So I finally got to meet Steve Ritchie. Are you the one who turned him in? No, but everyone would have seen that there was this really cool picture of Steve Ritchie being bent over on a high speed with the police arresting him and putting him in cuffs. And it was just fun. And this is now what I know of Steve Ritchie. And I only spoke to him for a few minutes. And as people will tell you, his hearing's not great. So you have to look him in the face, speak slowly, and then you can have a conversation.
    16:14
    And he was great. He was just great to talk to. And everyone said that they just had a great time talking to him, sort of like, I guess, a really good ambassador for Stern and for Pinball. And he may come on our show.
    16:31
    Don't tease me. Well, he said he wanted to. So, you know, we may just have to make that happen. That is a good sign.
    16:41
    The other things, I got to play Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle. Because remember, that's only just landed here. Like, I mean, I know it's been out forever elsewhere.
    16:52
    What do you think of Alice Cooper? Have you played it much? I've played some of it. I think it's by far their best game. Oh, without a doubt. And I got to play it quite a bit because when everyone was playing the Flip Frenzy last night, I just didn't want to play any more tournaments. I was happy to play pinball. I just didn't want to play any more tournaments or competitions. So I was just hanging around talking to people and having a bad time that way. And the Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle was there. So I thought I'd give that a go and played it for, I don't know, probably a good 45 minutes. And I've said this before and I'll say it again. The thing about Alice Cooper is it is not a conventional layout. The shots are pretty tight as well, some of them. So if you go up and you put some money in this machine, you start the game and you start flipping and you keep bricking your shots, that's pretty normal. And I watched a lot of people playing and that's what was happening. And what I will say is persist because once you adjust and you start finding those shots, it becomes a lot of fun. The other thing about the game is the rules. Forget what you know about pinball rules in modern times. This game does not play by those rules. Meaning, you know, when you start the game, there's not a lot that's open. You've got to hit the orbits to try and battle a monster. And once you battle a monster, then some standard rules come in, you know, hit this roaming shot or hit the guillotine shot or hit these lit shots, etc. And so the reason I'm bringing this up is because what I really liked about this game is just how different it feels in a sea of, I just want to say pinball by numbers, if that makes sense. You know how machines are great and Jurassic Park is great. You know, I'm in on a Jurassic Park. I can't wait for it to come. But it still abides by a set of rules that we are very familiar with. And Alice Cooper just throws all those rules out and says, this is us. Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's that drastically different. I mean, a few of the modes are different. But I mean, there's still a lot of modes that are, you know, light mode, shoot stuff.
    19:27
    You know, outside of, like, the hide the ball one obviously is one that hasn't really been done before.
    19:33
    But, you know, and then the recollect at the end of your mode on a hurry up is certainly a new concept, I think. But, I mean, but yeah, I mean, it is very different. I wouldn't say the entire thing is just completely, oh my God, so different. Well, I think you and I can see some familiarities with it. But the reason why I came to that conclusion is I decided to stand next to the machine for quite some time and watch people play. And then I guess you could call it a bit of an interview. I then sort of asked them questions about how they were playing the game. And the biggest feedback I got was I didn't know what I was shooting for. Things were happening and it just seemed accidental. And I think that's kind of what I'm talking about with this game. It not like others where everything laid out very easily in front of you You actually got to know what you doing in this to really be able to score big Yeah, the deeper strategy, certainly, yeah. I can see that. I also got to play, I know this is so old news, but speaking very similar, I also got to play Houdini at a place called Pimble House here in Brisbane. That's H-A-U-S. And I hadn't played it for a long time. And it's very similar in that it's a layout that just doesn't abide by normal rules. It is the shots are just in different spots and you just have to adjust your style. And I like it. The reason I'm bringing this up is that I worry about the sustainability of companies that are trying that. I don't know if someone's going to write in and say, oh, you just like cookie cutters again. It's not that. It's more so that, you know, I really wish these companies well and I want them to release machines that are accessible to people. Yeah, and, you know, that's what they say. They want something new. They want, we want this, we want that. But it's like when they're, like you mentioned, like it's a very different kind of layout. Different, the shots are in weird places. It's hard to find the shots. And what do you hear? People complain that they don't like Houdini for that exact reason. So it comes down to the same problem where it's, you know, people want different and then when they get it, they don't like it. It's just one of those things. I mean, I really like the game. I think that it's really fun. I love the theme. I think it's a beautiful game. Yeah. And it's just, once you get used to it, it's really fun. Yeah. So really that's I guess my wrap up of Brisbane Masters but I just wanted to ask you a question because I know that we've talked about this previously about tournament games and tournament strategies and when we did the Battle Royale for Bally Williams, just what makes a good tournament game versus a good game? And it's just sort of a question without notice for you. Why do you think that some games work really well in a tournament setting versus others?
    22:58
    Well, I mean, I mean, I guess it matters what you're kind of looking in for a tournament game. Do you have a specific example in mind? Well, I know that there, if you think about, you know, System 11s and some DMD games around that time where, you know, Okay, I'll give you an example where a game hasn't aged well and it's, you know, party zone because that was, you know, there and Ryan knew about the do the things strategy which was just hit the left ramp over and over. And he sort of recounted a story last night where, you know, someone had 30 mil on party zone and he was on 3 mil on the last ball and all he did was the ramp strategy. and his opponent said to him, well, I could have won the game if I did that.
    23:50
    Which is on you. Why aren't you doing that? That is the story. No, I know. But it's also a flip frenzy where you've also got a timer where you're wanting to get through games really quickly. But I guess, you know, games where you still get to enjoy the game, not just do the thing over and over. Yeah, I mean, the well-balanced ones certainly are better. That makes you use the entire playfield. You know, the one-shot games, like you mentioned, Party Zone, other one-shot games are just not that fun in tournaments like Earthshaker and stuff like that. So you have to really bastardize the game so you can't do the one thing or else it just becomes a long-playing, grindy game. So, yeah, the ones that force you or at least have, you know, multiple strategies are obviously much more interesting and thought-provoking games than those types that you describe when it comes to one-shot games, certainly. I tell you, there is one game that I'm now starting to really appreciate, even though I don't necessarily love it because I find it quite brutal, but that's ACDC. And the example I'll give is that, so at the Brisbane Masters, these games were set up really tough. I mean, I say really tough, it's what we all expect at Pinberg where, you know, rubbers are off, outlanes are set wide, ball savers off, code is set to tough. And ACDC was one of those. And when we were in a group of four, somebody chose one of the hell modes where, because I think it was a premium or an elite, where the ball went into the playfield underneath. And when somebody did that, we were watching, we all kind of looked at each other and went, what? That's a bit of a weird thing to do. And this guy actually won. And the reason why he won was because he knew that the ball save wasn't on and the game was so freaking brutal that at least you got some timed points down there before it destroyed you. And that's why I think that that game makes a good tournament game. Nobody would ever choose that strategy in any other setting. But the fact that it enables you to do that because of the situation I think is very cool. Yeah, and that must have been the hell's not a bad place to be. Yes, it was. So I mean that game has a lot of different ways you can go if mattering what you're comfortable with. And there's a lot of options. Pretty much all the best tournament games are the ones that have a lot of options that you can choose, which you can maybe even do what you're better at than a ramp strategy, or maybe there's a multi-ball strategy, or a loop strategy. So it opens up a lot of avenues to be able to pick your flavor and then go with it. And then if one doesn't work out, you can always switch strategies. That's always more interesting that way. And probably the sign of a good tournament game that does that is when you're watching a stream and you're watching the four best players in the world playing a game and they're attacking it differently. That's the sign. Otherwise, you just see them do the same thing. An example of that is Black Knight. I was watching gameplay of that and people are pretty much doing the same thing over and over. Yeah, pretty much. It's very much a modes, multiball, do them together. There's really no other strategies there. It's not like you have Metallica where you can go Grave or you can go Snake or you can go Sparky or even Coffin. There's not a broad menu of options there.
    28:07
    Look, everyone knows that my rules knowledge isn't all that great. And I've been able to get some massive monster scores on Metallica, But I've not always fully understood the rules. And Rob Miller, who was there, he just bought a Metallica and was going through the rules of Metallica talking about how, you know, you lock in all the different shots with all the markers. And I just, I mean, I know everybody knows that that's kind of obvious. And I had done that before because I'd seen them flashing and I'd obviously locked them in. But I wasn't, I'm not really acutely aware of that when I play. And that's the sign of a great game that's just got this additional depth and changes how you play the game as you're playing it. Exactly. And that's, as far as I'm concerned, those are the best games because you're constantly thinking about what you're doing. It's not like this robotic, you know, just see who can do this one thing better, which, you know, it's just still a, you know, it's determined by skill and the best player still will win, but it's not that engaging to watch and certainly not that engaging or exciting to play either. So, you know, it doesn't help anybody to have games like that. I finally started watching the Pimberg finals today and yesterday.
    29:39
    You know, that's watching, and like you mentioned, even on Metallica, some three people were going Sparky and Escher was going, chose to go Gravemarker. And the fact that, you know, these different games have different strategies is way more entertaining and interesting to watch. Yeah, absolutely agree. So I would therefore say if we're looking back, Black Knight maybe not so great because it doesn't have a lot of variety. Prior to that, we had... Monsters. Monsters, well, so Monsters, right? So Monsters is just do the same thing, which is obviously relatively limited, one would argue. Yeah, I don't have much experience. I've never played it in a tournament, so I really don't know.
    30:35
    Yeah, it was there. It was there at Brisbane Masters and people sort of just, you know, played it the same.
    30:44
    Probably the – because I'm trying to look back at games where I think, you know what, they do make a good tournament game because of the variety that you have. And I would say Deadpool is probably one of the better ones as well because you are – obviously you're bringing in, you know, what do they call them, battles and quests and with multiballs. But you can change what you're doing based on the situation of the game. And Iron Maiden before that is another one where it's, again, very situational. Before that, Guardians of the Galaxy. Guardians of the Galaxy has become such a good game to watch other people play, as well as play it yourself. But I think it's become a really good game to watch. Yeah, I think, yeah, like you said, Deadpool is, I mean, I think that that's going to go down as an old-timer because it's just that, like you said, that there's so many different layers and options and choices that you make along the way. It's just, it's such a good game. And yeah, Monsters, I think Monsters, yeah, I mean, not Monsters, Guardians is also a really good game too. I don't think it's as good as Deadpool to me personally, but it is really good. I know we, I'm not going to do a Joe Tips of Top 100 for this, but one game that came up that I think has had obviously so many changes, And when it came up and I was like, right, you're now on this game, I was like, shit, I don't know how to play this. And that is Batman 66.
    32:22
    And that's another one that's got all these different options. But is it too much? No, I mean, I don't think so. But then again, I understand Batman and really, really, really love Batman. So what are you going for when you're playing Batman 66? You know, it's important to know kind of what you feel that your target score is going to be or what you need to score because there's different tiers of strategies when it comes to what kind of score you need to put up. I mean, if you don't need that high of a score, it literally can just be as simple as, you know, super skill, start a villain, get in a villain, let your multiball, play a multiball, and that can be the end of it. That, in a lot of situations, can probably get you what you need. But then if you want to go deeper, then you can start mixing in if you want to go for a bat turn, or if you want to get your 2x scoring, work on multipliers, then you can start deciding if you want to bring in mini-villains and trying to complete those to give you the abilities that they provide if you complete them. Um, so, and then those can chain with each other and augment the rest of the stuff you're doing. You know, and then you can decide if you want to go for villain escape and playing all the major villains once to try and get to that, or if you want to, you know, pile, power through your villains down and play a villain completely through all the levels, which can give you more score, but there's no carrot at the end like a villain escape can be. So, I mean, there's a lot of options, but not all the options are required at all times, and they're there if you need them. But, you know, I think it's also going to be an all-timer when it comes to, it's just such an amazing game. But the options and how it's all put together and the rules, and Lyman did an exceptional job with that game. I remember when it first came out people were sort of like obviously so freaking cool on it. Cool meaning not great. And it has. It's become a legendary game because of the code. I always thought that even just from just the playfield from playing it when it first came out even when the rules weren't there I knew that it was going to get there because the playfield was great. I really liked the playfield and you know it's Lyman. I know I know Lyman is going to make an amazing game. I don't fault them for what they did. They rushed the game out so that Adam West could be involved with it because he was sick, which I think is something that they got killed for, but it was really cool of them to do that. But of course they didn't come out and say that that's the reason they did it.
    35:24
    Yeah, of course. Yes, but I mean, it was really awesome they did that and it was worth it to have him involved and everything.
    35:35
    And to prove that that was very much a very niche one-off thing, they haven't done that with any other games. No other games since then have been put out at such beta code. Right, and therefore had so much of an evolution of code. And that's kind of what I was saying when I stepped up. I hadn't played Batman 66 for probably six to nine months easy. And think about how many code iterations have happened since then. I just don't think there's been a game that's just had so many updates and changes. And people have then attacked that machine different ways based on the code that's come out. Yeah, but at least thankfully with that game, the strategy or the core of the game hasn't changed. It's just been, like, the code updates were essentially adding in wizard modes and adding in minor villains. So the core gameplay didn't change as Supermout, but, you know, given the option, I mean, I don't know about you, But I mean, given the option, I would prefer to have a game that is the way kind of that Batman was released. And then it's like you get all this downloadable content and it changes. It's like you're getting a new game every month. I mean, it's super awesome. Yep. I said that when Star Trek got the first, like the big update when they added the Carl Urban call-outs and the medals and all that kind of stuff. That just absolutely breathed new life into the game. So, again, I'm the kind of person that says, give me bits of code and drip feed me, you know, as you said, DLC is downloadable content that just keeps it alive.
    37:26
    Guardians of the Galaxy, another one where it, because it revolutionized it, it just kept it fresh. And then you've got other games, I think, that have been more fully fleshed when they came out. So Ion Maiden was probably a prime example where it came out with almost everything that you can do. And then I think three to four months later was when you started seeing them on the second hand market. People were like, oh, well, I played it. That's it.
    37:54
    And, you know, it was the same thing because I believe that Guardians, that also, because that was also rushed out because of the whole, because Trudeau's game got scrapped and pushed off to what eventually became Deadpool. So that again was another example where they were just like, we need to fill this slot, so we're putting the game out, and then we'll get to it and fix it up as it goes when we have time. And again, that's another thing, that game changed a lot in the evolution, and that was really cool to see. And the people who own that game, I imagine I would at least, like I mentioned, I would really enjoy that. That would be a really fun thing, just every time you get a code update, like, oh my god, the game, now I get to go to discover a brand new game again. Yeah. So, I wish more people would realize that and be more understanding of sometimes things happen and not everything is perfect. And you got a new game instead of not getting a game for many months on end because it wasn't ready. So it's like, what would you rather have? Would you rather have a game that's still fun to flip and you get to play it and then you get to see it evolve for months or just not have a game at all? I hope that most people would say, I'll take the game. Yep, exactly. So what I'm hearing you say is, can we get some Munsters code soon, please?
    39:20
    I don't think you're going to get Munsters code. I think Munsters is what it is, and I think that it was made specifically for the segment that that game is focused towards. I don't think that it's going to change. I don't know, people are just going to have to accept that Monsters is what it is, love it or hate it. I mean, they might mess with some things, but I kind of look at that game in a similar way as The Hobbit, where, yeah, they're going to polish it here and there, but the framework of the game is not going to change. Which is why I moved on from Hobbit because the framework of the game needed to be redone in my eyes. So that wasn't going to happen. Yeah, it was polished, but it wasn't going to change the way the game functioned, which was my main issue with it.
    40:16
    And I think the same thing is going to be in Monsters. Monsters is what it is. The framework, the way the levels work, I honestly don't think that they're just going to go in there and be like, Alright, let's fucking start this thing over. And we're gonna do completely different. Like, they might mess with some things and tweak some things, but I don't see them completely revamping the entire game.
    40:37
    And honestly, I don't think, I mean, I'm, I don't overly understand the hate the monsters gets. I don't mind the game, and with the times I've played it, I've enjoyed it, so I don't know. Look I agree with you but I think really the gripes coming from the owners not the players People that go and play it go yep I had some fun I put my and my in whatever it is wherever you are in the world my one pound I don know what it is one shackle wherever you from And that's okay, one shackle. But as an owner of one of these things where you want the home experience to be a lot deeper, I think that's where the dissatisfaction is coming from. And I streamed it a couple of weeks ago, and I streamed for three hours at a time. I was about, I don't know, 45-50 minutes into my stream, and I just went, oh, I feel like I want to move to another game, because I've done, I've seen everything that I need to see. I don't have that just one more game feeling. Yeah. Yeah, I haven't spent enough time to see that level and see that depth to it. I've gotten to Monster Madness once or twice because, again, I haven't spent a ton of time on it.
    42:00
    Yeah, I mean, I can see that that would get aggravating. Well, it's also just a bit of Groundhog Day as well in that, you know, start the game, go for Grandpa, go for Herman Munster, go for Lily, you'll get her anyway, and then go for Spot and Raven and then go for Monster Madness. It is effectively the same journey that you're taking each time. And that's what we were talking about before, about having choice and being able to attack a game a different way. Now, with Munsters, if you choose to go Herman before Grandpa or if you choose to go for Kitty before Herman, it doesn't feel like you're radically changing the game. You're just doing modes in a different order. Does that make sense? Yeah, no, I can, I definitely see that there's, that that is there, but at the same time, like, it's like, like, it's, it's, you know, it's kind of like the way people, like, look at TNA. Like, TNA is a simple, super simple, basic game with the rules and what you do with it. And because people like the music and the lights, it gets away with it.
    43:23
    But yet there's room for games like that to exist. It's okay to have simple games that are different than what else is out there. And I kind of look at Monsters in the same way, that Monsters is not like any of the other games, where it has this rule set that's level-based and you do these things and that's it. It's very different than all the other games that are out there right now, and I don't know, I guess I'm fine with a different game like that existing versus forcing it into the same box where a lot of the other games live. I mean, if I could see that maybe, like objectively the big things that probably knowing what the game's like and what people say about it seems like probably the best things or probably the things that they might do is just change the subsequent monster madnesses to be vastly different than the ones previously.
    44:26
    Which I've heard that the monster madnesses are pretty similar to each other. No, kind. Well, again, because I've got the LA, which has got the playfield underneath, when you get to the first Munster Madness, it actually starts with balls on the lower playfield and the upper playfield at the same time. When you get to Munster Madness level two, it only starts on the upper playfield and you've got to hit a certain shot within a certain time to then activate the balls underneath. So it's different, but I don't know, it just doesn't feel that different. But what about the rest of it? Outside of just upper playfield, lower playfield, what about the rules of the rest of it? Is it vastly different than the previous one with what you're doing, what you're shooting, all that stuff? To get to level 2? No, the core rules of Monsters 1 is very similar to Monsters 2 outside of the different uses of the upper and lower playfield. Yeah, it's similar in that you go through each of the monsters, you know? Yeah, so I guess maybe the problem is that maybe they need to be more differentiated from each other so they feel vastly different a la maybe how the wizard modes in Star Trek are vastly different from each other. Where it doesn't feel like you're playing the same one but with modifications or the same one with just slightly different. So they feel different from each other. Maybe that's the key. No, I absolutely understand what you mean. So with Star Trek being the example, like level one modes are, you know, some of them are slightly similar, but they're effectively, you know, shoot the flash and light, whichever one it is and it randomizes or whatever. But when you get to level two, level two is where the modes actually get really interesting. They feel different and they feel like you've got purpose and they're quite consistent in what you need to do. I guess that's probably what I'm saying with this is when you go from level one to level two, the journey to level two monster madness is effectively the same modes but harder. Like there might be more shots. That's really what it is. So that's that Groundhog Day effect that I'm feeling. I know it's now harder to get to level 2, but I'm still doing the same thing. And it's the lack of variety that people are talking about. Yeah. And I could see how that could annoy some people. But at the same time, that's also very accessible of a rule set. You're right. It does what it intends to do, and that was let's make a game that is easier for people. With an easier rule set and turn the ball save off. Yeah, then I think it succeeds at that. So, yeah, I don't know. They might be perfectly happy with the box that it lives in and that they hit what they were trying to do. Maybe they were just trying to make a good location game and it wasn't as, you know. I mean, Dwight's been so all over the place with all the stuff he's had to work with. So he could be going back to Monsters at some point and maybe he'll mess with that some to make it a little different. But yeah, I can... It'd be cool if he does, but at the same time I'm kind of fine where it is. But then again, I'm not super experienced on it, so I can't say that I've played it to the point where I'm sick of it or have run into all the issues that you've mentioned. Fair enough. Just a bit of a discussion because the reason why I bring that up is that it was obviously... Masters was there at Business Masters. And, you know, when I go to these shows and, again, yet again, you know, people sort of continue conversations that I've had months ago, but it's just that's what happens. And the two main things that people were really talking about was what's next for Stern?
    48:29
    Jurassic Park's not even really out yet, but that's all people, they kept going, so what do you know? What's coming up next for Stern? Cold to the new. It is. It really is. It's Elvira. So there you go.
    48:44
    And the other one was code. And people kept talking about code for Black Knight and for monsters. And again, it wasn't like people were saying, you know, what do you think about the code for Black Knight and monsters? People were saying, what do you think about the code for Black Knight? And do you think it's going to improve? And separately, what do you think about the code for monsters and do you think it's going to improve? That's what I'm saying. They were the two main topics of conversation at this particular event was what's next for Stern and what's happening with code. So that's really what's important to people at the moment. Yeah, I think Stern's biggest, which their biggest enemy really is themselves. And it has nothing to do and it's nothing they can change. It's just when people look at Blank Game and they look at Batman or they look at Deadpool and then they go, well, why isn't my Black Knight the same as that? Or why doesn't it have as much as that? Or, you know, whatever it is that people are looking for. And it's like, having a variety of experiences across games is a good thing. You know, Black Knight doesn't have to play like Guardians or, you know, Black Knight plays very uniquely for itself, you know, And this outcry of trying to get all of the games to be, I guess, very similar when it comes to comparing them and being like, well, this one's not as good as this one, and this one does this, and that one doesn't do that. And it's like, well, it's fine. They're different games. They can live in their own box and their own universe and still be fine. It's okay. We get four of these a year just from Stern, so it's like we're going to get to a point where just nobody's going to be happy with anything because it's just going to be like, well, that one's not like this or this one's not like that and this one could be this. I wish that people would just be happy with the fact they're making different games, different unique games with different unique experiences. And if you don't like one of them, that's fine. Don't play. You don't have to. But some other people really like those experiences and they're different and people like variety and, you know, it's okay.
    51:00
    Exactly. This is where the moment I got kicked out of the hotel room and I had to move downstairs which I couldn't find a quiet space so I ended up going to the airport and the sound quality gets even worse. Here we go.
    51:18
    Alright so now change of scenery I'm now at Brisbane Airport and I'm waiting for my flight I'm sitting at the gate lounge so let's have some fun Joe. Aw yeah.
    51:31
    This is the dedication that I have to this podcast is just recording on the fly. I was actually tempted to record on the Uber on the way over. That would have been fun.
    51:44
    Not nearly as fun as this. I mean, I stopped playing Jurassic Park so that I could talk to you. So, I mean, that's why this podcast is so successful. We're both so dedicated. So tell me about Jurassic Park now that you've had a lot more time playing it. I think that it's awesome. It's super fun. I got to play a production copy, obviously, versus the prototypes. Definitely noticed a big difference when it came to the way the game was shooting, stuff like that. Of note, they decided to install the pin that is behind the captive ball for the truck. They actually decided to install that by default, it seems, because that was in the game I was playing. What that does is that if you've seen the pictures, or I don't know if it happened any times you were playing it, but a ball can get wedged between the two captive balls, and then the game really has no way of getting it out because there's no ball search of any kind there. So pretty much right directly behind the front captive ball there is a post there, the same post that they use on the outlanes, and that prevents a ball from sitting in that place. So stuck balls can't happen there anymore. Which, when I was talking to them before at the booth and stuff like that, they weren't sure if they were going to actually install that or if they were just going to leave it in the game so that it was up to the people to install it. But this one came this way. So, that was a good note for that. But, I mean, it's the same, I think it's the same code that we played on and it's just, it's so fun. There's so many options. Rans, you know, the shots are very... there's really only one easy shot on the game. The rest are pretty challenging. Is that the left ramp? It's pretty much the only easy one? Yeah, pretty much. The C lane, the S shot, the right helicopter shot, the O shot, they're all very difficult. Even the right ramp is difficult sometimes. I guess that's kind of what I was saying before when we were talking about Houdini and Alice Cooper.
    54:03
    They're unusual and you've got to get used to them. Jurassic Park, again, it's unusual and you've got to find your shots, but it's still got that stern feel. So I think it's easier for you to adjust on Jurassic Park than it is on other games. Yeah, and the shots are just in places. Specifically, at least location-wise, the C and the S shot are in really awkward places when it comes to aiming. They're at the very end of the flipper.
    54:38
    And the C is probably in a similar location, probably of your piston target on Metallica. And then really the S shot is, I don't know if there's necessarily a comparable I can think of, but it's not as simple as the control room because that you just have to go up and hit the target. This one you have to hit it solid enough so that it goes up, you know, up kicks into the ramp. So I found that most of the times I died were shooting at either the control room, the O orbit, which is just super tight, and then the S shot. But I found that most of my balls ended from getting to a point where the game wanted me to shoot those shots and I couldn't deliver.
    55:22
    And so what about the shots from the upper flipper? Because one thing I found was that when you hit that side ramp, it feels really good. But I couldn't really consistently get either the ramp or the loop shot. It was one or the other or a dead shot in the middle. Did you end up getting used to that? Yeah, I was having a pretty easy time shooting the upper orbit or the ramp.
    55:48
    Actually, one of them I got 15 towers to light one of my next control room in one of the big games I had. So it's super satisfying. It's a little weird because right now it doesn't really do much. So when you hit the right ramp, it's just now I hit the side ramp. For safety's sake. If it's not lit for rescue or tranking a dinosaur, it's just kind of there. I don't think it necessarily does anything outside of just being like, tower hit. And this will be good for you later on when you get enough of them. I don't think there's any other functionality there yet. Same thing with the orbit. It counts orbits, but I don't know if there's anything there right now that makes it worth hunting for. And you're getting a really good sense, we used the word rules framework before, are you getting a good sense of what it's going to be? Yeah, I mean, it's very well balanced because you have your, on the lowest level, you have your dinosaurs and your map, your paddock map, and you're going through there. And that in itself is not worth a ton of points, but you're gaining abilities and powers that you get for the rest of the game. You're capturing dinosaurs and getting your rescues, and your rescues are what gives you your extra ball, so that's important on location play.
    57:20
    But the powers you get can be super useful and lucrative later on in the game and throughout the game as you play. And then you have your control rooms, which are kind of like the crank it up type modes when it comes to, because they're hard to light and you have to do well in other things to light them, but they're super lucrative. If you do well in them, we're talking around 100 million if you do well in a mode. So those are super valuable. And the way you light them is finish one paddock, then you have to complete Chaos twice to light another one, then you can start Raptor Multiball to light another one, and then the last one is you can hit 15 towers. Or the Tower Shots, and that'll light another one. That's how you get to get to the fourth one.
    58:24
    Not necessarily in that order, it can be any of that sequence, but then you have the T-Rex modes, which are just like, you know, also more powerful modes and also it can be worth a lot. And then obviously you have the Chaos Multiball which can also be super lucrative but it's hard to get the big points out of it unless you can get to the second phase of that. So it has a lot of cool stuff going on and it's getting a big code update next week which is perfect timing. Yeah, I think we're probably going to get them, I mean if they've started landing there, our production machines, we're probably going to get them in maybe four weeks, I'd say. Which is not too bad. I look forward to it. And then obviously Ellie's in November. Yeah, and the game will be pretty flushed out by that time. I know. But then I miss what we were talking about before, having the little mini-updates which, you know, breathe new life, whatever, you know. Well, you could slow roll it. I mean, they're going to be shipped with whatever. You could play on that for a little bit and then start chucking on. And you can put on older revisions too. I could do that, couldn't I? Simulate the journey, even though I probably have a shorter period of time.
    59:48
    Yeah, exactly. Okay, there you go. Another piece of news, and this sort of also leads on to a discussion that I had at Pimberg. So let's talk about Jack Danger doing a machine. Now, we know that he's done a sort of a single level and, you know, sort of come out people are speculating. I think he's made an announcement that he wants to do a proper machine. And I will just say on this that, yes, I will confirm that a conversation that I had at Pimberg would certainly indicate that Jack Danger is looking to, to design a full machine and I would assume it's for Stern considering that's who he's affiliated with the most. What do you think Joe? Yeah, presumably. I mean, the one, the whitewood that he put up there showed off, I mean, it seems fine. It's very weird. It reminds me kind of like Go Nuts or something like that. Yeah, I know what you mean, where it's got weird sort of lanes that sort of feed other ones and these loops become loops. And the Pop Bumpers are like guardians of those loops. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It kind of looks interesting. It actually, when I saw him flip it, it actually looked kind of cool. There was actually quite a lot of flow, which I liked about it. Anyway, that's cool. But the other thing that I saw this week on social media watch, I'm on my laptop so I don't have the recording. So I might have to edit that in.
    61:29
    So there was actually I remember talking about a while ago that he was filming a pilot for a TV show and he released the pilot or the sizzle reel this week for a show that was to be called Danger Games Did you get to see it at all I did. I tell you what I like about it. You know, we really like Jack Danger and one thing about him is that he's very charismatic and just got a lot of energy and, you know, a really good person to talk to, just a really good presence. So when I heard about him doing the show, I was thinking to myself, hmm, I wonder if that would work. I'd imagine it would because take Pinball out of it, he's actually just this guy that's got his presence. So when I saw the sizzle reel, effectively, Danger Games is him going around the country sort of talking to people about all the different types of games that people play. And it looked, it actually looked really enjoyable. I would watch it. What do you think? I'm not a big reality TV person. So, you know, to me, it seemed like it was like, you know, Man vs. Food or other things like that. Which, you know, it's fine. I mean, I don't religiously watch his show. Pretty much I watch the announcements and that's pretty much the only stuff that I watch. Because I just don't have the bandwidth to be able to absorb that much stuff. But yeah, I'm sure people will like it. People love his channel. Well, it hasn't been picked up. I think he's put it up there to say, hey, if anyone wants to pick it up, then do it. But anyway, for what it is, I think it actually looks good. Yeah, and hopefully if he wants to make a custom game and that's playful, that's all the power to him. I mean, I'd really honestly like to do one too at some point, but who knows when that's going to happen. We all would love to. Yeah, I already have an artist lined up who wants to do it with me for the theme that we want to do. So Joe, would you like to do Joe Tips in the Top 100? Airport Edition. It is Airport Edition. That means I'm not going to be able to do Google Lady, but I'm going to use random.org and it's going to generate the number, here it comes, number 12, which is... Okay. Adam's Family. Well, it'll be hard.
    64:04
    All right. Again, what I want you to talk about is the many different ways people tackle Adam's family in tournaments, but then just overall what you would do in that game. Okie dokie.
    64:17
    So, I mean, generally speaking, your first order of business is just you're going to try and figure out where that skill shot is. You want to hit that and then pretty much mattering how that goes, it's going to determine what your next decision is going to be or next problem. If you hit the skill shot, great. Now you're going to go for the side ramp so you can try and get the million plus. Then you get to figure out what you're going to do when it gets to the little flipper. Are you going to hold up the little flipper and try and transfer it safely to the lower flipper? Will that actually be safe? Who knows? On your copy, if you don't thing flip, if you don't flip the little flipper, will it go down into one of the inlanes? Some copies it does, sometimes it doesn't. If it does, that's hugely profitable because now you can hit the middle ramp and get thing flips or, you know, bear kicks. So that's super good to know. Most of the time you're not actually going to be flipping. So just before that, there's a little bit of a trick that people do with the skill shot. When they overshoot the skill shot, they let it drain. Is that the case? So if you undershoot the skill shot and it rattles, like overshooting the skill shot would put you into the pop bumpers, but if you hit it, it rattles in and it comes down. If you don't flip, most Addams families, it will middle on you, so then you can just let it drain and replunge and adjust accordingly. Definitely. Some Addams families, that feed can be bad. It's hard to know because sometimes it might clip the sling or it might tap something or something might go off on the way down and you just get screwed over. But yeah, generally, if you're short and it goes to the upper flipper anyways, you can just let it go and just try not to hit a switch and you'll be fine to replunge. Obviously, you don't want a short plunge because then you're going to a swamp and getting nothing for it.
    66:18
    And then dealing with the kickout, it'll give you the opportunity to figure out what the kickout does, but it's not ideal and you definitely want to be going for the skill shot. And then after that, most Adams families, you have two strategies you're going to be doing. You're either going mansion or you're going multiball.
    66:41
    The multiball strategy is pretty simple. You're probably going, you're going to be shooting for the bookcase from the left, just a forehand. From the right, you can backhand it. On a lot of Adams families, if you backhand from the right, it tends to rebound over to your upper flipper, And then you can take a shot at the million plus ramp. So if that is possible, a lot of players will go that route because you're getting letters plus side ramps, which million plus keeps on going up and makes it more and more valuable.
    67:13
    And then, obviously, multiball, you're trying to hit the side ramp for a double jackpot or the train for a single jackpot, And then after that, you have to relight it via the bookcase, and that'll relight it, and then you can go for a triple jackpot, and then you can just keep doing that, and it keeps on getting more and more valuable. One important note that I'm still trying to get into my mindset to make sure that I always do it and get it in there automatically is that if you kilt, it will give you an extra greed letter. So if you have a catastrophic ball one and you don't play any modes and you don't have any bonus, if you tilt, you will get an extra greed letter, which will help guarantee on top of the one greed letter you get every ball, that'll help guarantee that you get to multiball come ball three. And obviously when it comes to multiball you want to be able to lock your balls because you get skill shots. So if you come up after someone else has already locked balls then you're going to have to deal with swamp kickouts and obviously you're going to lose your skill shot points there which can be significant. So here's a question for you as well. When you lock your first ball, on your plunge after, if you haven't got the swamp kickout, So you've got the option of going for a skill shot or going for the short plunge to lock your second ball. That's, I think, if locks are set up that way. What would you do? So normally, even if you hit the skill shot, that's also a lock. Thing will come up, grab it, and lock the ball. Only on the third lock will that not do that. Then the third lock is just you can get your skill shot and then it's just a matter of starting via the bookcase or the chair at that point to start your multiple. One variant on this is that if you happen to be playing normally on a normal Addams Family, they're both worth the same and it doesn't matter which one you start from. The chair tends to be safer.
    69:23
    And obviously when you're doing this, if the power is turned on, it tends to be mostly turned off in tournament. But if you wait 15 seconds and trap up, it will turn off, and that obviously puts you in a safer environment if you miss.
    69:36
    And even shooting it that you don't have a pulse happen at the exact moment that you're shooting past, because I've had times where I actually shot for the chair while the power's on, and the power had to have been right on top of a magnet, and it grabbed the ball and threw it down the middle. So ever since then I will not shoot that. I will not take any of those shots while the power's on.
    70:00
    So the difference is that if you're playing on a gold edition of the Addams Family, which in big tournaments you tend to want because that software is really bad for tournaments. Outside of this one change, which I think is the only redeeming factor, redeeming quality of the gold edition, On the Gold Edition, if you start your multiball via the bookcase, it makes your jackpots more valuable than if you start via the chair. So that's a thing to keep in the back of your head if you're playing a Gold Edition. But most of the time you're not going to because tournament-wise it's a very terrible version of the game. Because it just randomly gives points randomly to people for doing the same stuff as everyone else. All right. So for those that are sort of, I guess, new to this and new to the strategy, so the summary of the multiball is hit the green targets, open up the bookcase, lock the ball in there, and then you've then got the option to lock, have a look at multiballs, either via the skill shot up the top of the scoop or short plunge into the swamp. To start is into the bookcase or the chair. There it is. And jackpots are via the left side ramp for double and I think the train shot for a single jackpot. And then to light the jackpot again is which shot? Is the bookcase. Bookcase. There you go. Rinse and repeat. There you go. Done. The other mode, depending on how easy the scoop is, the chair scoop, that would really determine whether you would go for the mansion, and that effectively is ramp, scoop, ramp, scoop, right? Yep, and the different variable of that is whether or not what the feeds do.
    72:01
    Some atoms will dead bounce, if it's out of the chair, dead bounce to the right to a trap. Same thing with out of the swamp. If it comes out of the swamp, you can hold the flipper and it can come to a trap or down, it'll bounce over. So it's really important to know what the feeds do, but on some people, on certain atoms, if the thing ramp is pretty easy to hit, sometimes people will relay their modes that way by hitting thing and hitting the side ramp, and then getting to the thing flipper, holding up the flipper, transferring it to the bottom left, getting control, and to the chair, and then vice versa, like same thing, comes out of the chair, Dead Bounce Over, boom, thing, rinse repeat. Because that accomplishes the same thing as hitting the middle ramp, but it's worth more because you're getting million pluses. So then when you've gotten all the windows or whatever they are within the mansion, you then do tour the mansion.
    73:00
    I, this may surprise you, haven't really been there that often. But what I understand of it is you're actually, you are touring the mansion and you're going through certain modes that you've already done before. Is that right? Correct. You go through all the modes that got you there, and they're timed, and they come in phases. You get paid $50 million, and then it slowly starts going through the modes. So there's certain parts within Tor the Mansion that you don't necessarily want to be doing anything until it gets to the more valuable modes, and then you want to play those ones. So would you time them out to get to the better modes? Yeah, some of them, like if it's, I mean, it's how comfortable you're playing, I mean, and what the scores are. I mean, I've seen people like when Mama Mushka's running or Cousin It or Graveyard, they just time those out. They don't care about those. Tunnel Hunt, they don't necessarily care. Then people tend to start playing when Seance is running or Quick Multiball Lights or Thing. Those ones are a lot more valuable, so then they'll play those ones, but the other ones... Because if you play the other ones, you're risking not getting to the more valuable ones.
    74:17
    But what I mean is, I know that... I think that's what you're talking about, is what modes you would play getting up to two in the mansion. But once you get into two of the mansion, it doesn't... I'm not sure... I don't think... To complete two of the mansion, it doesn't go through all the different modes, does it? It does. Yeah. It'll start going through. It'll light a couple of them at a time. They'll run, and then once they're done, it'll start phasing in a couple more of them. And that's what I was talking about. I think it starts off with starting Mamamushka and Cousin It together, and then that'll run for a little bit. And then once that's done, it'll move into Tunnel Hunt and Grave or something along those lines, then Seance, then Quick Multi-Ball, then Thing. So a lot of the first part of mansion, a lot of people will just kind of trap up and wait for those to be over so that they can get to the later mansion rooms to get those which are more valuable. And so I guess what you're saying is that the same rules apply. If you skipped the mode leading up to Tour of the Mansion, skip it when you're in Tour of the Mansion. Yeah, pretty much. And the most important thing, the big thing is that once you tour on a ball, you can't get any more rooms. So it's kind of like the Superdor or whatever on Funhaus or games like that. Once you get it on a ball, it's locked out until the next ball. So, like, say, if you're on a ball and you have tour lit, it's really important to start tour that ball. Like if you have multiball or something else, start your tour so that if you drain on your next ball you can start doing modes again. Because you could end up getting locked out with then you drain and now your very first thing you do on the next ball is start tour. And then the rest of your ball you don't have any options to play any modes. Yeah, I think for most people they would just be very happy to get into Tuom Mansion at any stage. Yeah, but it's just good knowledge to have. But even if you're locked out of Two of the Mansion or any more sort of doors, you can still just go for multiple, right? Yep, that's pretty much what you'd be left with, or a million pluses.
    76:32
    Just hearing you talk about Adam's Family again does not make me like it anymore. Yeah, I'm not that huge of a fan. It's just very linear and samey, and I've played it enough, and it's just there. Yeah. It's still, it is, look, I don't like playing it, everyone knows I don't like playing it, but I do like watching it in a tournament. Yeah, it's fun, especially if you get people who are attacking the game differently. The big problem is that once, what tends to happen with Adam's families is once a person finds out all the information and figures out the way to play it, the rest of the players follow suit. Like, if the first player sees that it has great feeds and Mansion looks like the rooms are very much controllable, the feeds are controllable, that everyone else is going to do the same thing because they just saw that there's safety in it and, you know, they're going to do the same thing. Like, I don't think that after seeing that, a player will come up and be like, I'm going multiball. That tends to not happen. Someone might start off the game that way, but once the knowledge of feeds and the first person who sees how the little flipper works, people are going to see that and go, okay, that's what I'm going to do. That seems to be the safest way to do it. Same way if the first person doesn't flip at all and it just goes into an in lane safely, everyone else is going to do that. Same way as if holding it up gets to the lower flipper, then everyone else is going to do it after that. So there is a time when it is actually worth flipping that into the Swamp Party? Really the only time that you really are going to ever flip that is the thing flips.
    78:15
    And hopefully the thing flips is accurate and hits it. Most of the time you're not going to take that shot because it's super dangerous if you miss.
    78:25
    And most Adam's families are set pretty hard in tournaments. So if you take the shot and you miss, side to side on this game is how you're going to die. So most people won't take that shot. I mean, if you're player four and you need five million to win, maybe you'll take the shot. But even then, it's more lucrative if you just hold up the flipper or do something else and get some points that way. Because, I mean, it's not an easy shot. And maybe if by some weird luck you've been in the pop bumpers a lot and your grave is high, then maybe. Because then you're popping like 10 million shots every time you do it. So maybe you'd take that shot, but in a general rule you don't purposely flip thing for the 5X. There you go. I hope we've all learned something about Adam's family. I haven't.
    79:23
    There's not a lot there, and it's pretty fleshed out at this point. And like I've been playing Adam's Family in tournament is very much an amoeba effect where it's just everyone goes towards the way that people are finding that the game's playing. That always seems to be. What sort of effect did you say?
    79:43
    Amoeba. Okay, I just want to make sure because I'm not saying anything, but I don't want to get into trouble like Eminent Domain. Is an amoeba effect a real thing? It might be. It's just amoebas that things just kind of come together and then everyone else follows suit. It might not be a thing. I've heard it before, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a thing.
    80:09
    Lemming, there you go. Lemming effect. That's more. At least correct in this episode, saving us all the things, but someone please write in and tell us what the amoeba effect is. And even if I got it right, just in case. Every time you say something like an effect, I'm going to go, okay, pick two to three other type effects, and let's just see if any one of those is accurate. Yeah, yeah, it's true. My brain works way, way faster than my mouth, so they don't tend to sink all the time. So that's Adam's family, guys. It's so good. All the great things about it have nothing to do with Pat Lawler.
    80:49
    Don't get me started. I know. So guys, I can see that my plane is about to board, so I'm going to have to say goodbye. But just for the next episode, we did actually last week, we talked about, you know, someone wrote in about how operators set up their machines to be, I guess, It's profitable and to be attractive for people to play. We've actually had quite a few people write in, and in fact somebody's actually volunteered to come on the show. So we watched this space next week. I think we're going to talk about that in a lot more detail. So thanks to those people that have written in. Unfortunately, we've ran out of time this week. Yeah, and that means that I get to be part of talking about this because it looked interesting. And, I mean, the takeaway is just, I mean, it was cool that you're bringing home an animal from the trade show so that we can talk to it next week. No, we're always talking about that. Well, and maybe, I'm just putting it out there, maybe next week we may actually have a special interview as well, and if we can tee it up, it'll be Joe's first head-to-head interview. I know. I'll see how I can fuck that up.
    81:59
    Very easily. Eminent domain. That's right. Going down in infamy. There you go. Thanks, everybody. We'll speak to you again next week. Thanks, Joe. See you.