Journalist Tool

Kineticist

  • HDashboard
  • IItems
  • ↓Ingest
  • SSources
  • KBeats
  • BBriefs
  • RIntel
  • QSearch
  • NName Review
  • +Health

v0.1.0

← Back to items

Dirty Pool Podcast - Ep35 - Mike Vinikour | Designing Modern Pinball Rules

Dirtypool Pinball·video·1h 25m·analyzed·Jul 7, 2026
View original
Export .md

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 (batch) · $0.021

TL;DR

Mike Vinikour shares his unconventional path from arcade player to Midway QA tester to pinball rules designer.

Summary

Mike Vinikour (MXV), a legendary pinball rules designer, discusses his personal history including 16,000+ vinyl records collected over 44 years, his early career as a professional Mortal Kombat player and arcade champion, and his work as a video game QA tester at Midway Games (1994-2001) where he helped establish the company's QA department. The conversation spans his transitions from punk rock fandom to music photography to his current role designing pinball rules, emphasizing how passion, mentorship, and community encouragement shaped his trajectory.

Key Claims

  • MXV owns approximately 16,000 vinyl records, 60-65% of which are punk rock, collected seriously for 44 years since age 12

    high confidence · Mike Vinikour stated ballpark is 'a little over 16,000' after discussing 44 years of obsessive collecting starting at age 12; he's now 56 years old

  • It would take over a year of continuous listening (awake to sleep) to get through MXV's entire record collection

    medium confidence · A friend did napkin math more than a decade ago estimating this timeframe; MXV confirmed he hasn't updated the calculation since then

  • MXV was one of the best Mortal Kombat 2 players in Chicago/North America, racking up 105 consecutive wins in a single session before willingly losing to go home

    medium confidence · MXV self-reported; he also claimed to 'rarely lose' matches and was as skilled as the top city players except for a couple

  • MXV met Bill Davstein (Bill Dozer from Midway Games) at a Bowel Prophets punk show in 1994 and secured a game QA testing position at Midway Games as a result

    high confidence · MXV provided detailed account of the encounter, Davstein's business card, and the subsequent job offer for Revolution X testing

  • MXV helped establish the QA department at Midway Games, which did not exist before his hiring; prior to that, developers tested their own games

    medium confidence · MXV stated: 'I helped create the QA department at Midway Games because there wasn't one. There you go. Like legit.'

  • MXV worked at Midway Games from 1994 to 2001 and tested Mortal Kombat 1, 2, 3, and Revolution X

    high confidence · MXV confirmed: 'I was there until they from 1994 until 2001' and named specific titles tested

  • The original Mortal Kombat development team consisted of fewer than 10 people; modern console MK games have 400-500 person development teams plus outsourcers

    medium confidence · MXV made this comparison to illustrate how QA has been deprioritized in modern game development

  • MXV has shot Skinny Puppy (his favorite band) in concert 6-7 times out of 24 total times he's seen them live

Notable Quotes

  • “I started collecting records when I was probably like six and then but I didn't start seriously collecting them until I got into like junior high school and I learned how to take care of them properly. Nothing from like grade school lasted and I'd just been obsessed with it my entire life.”

    Mike Vinikour @ early in podcast — Establishes MXV's lifelong commitment to record collecting and the discipline required for physical media curation

  • “It's not a passive experience, you know. It's an active experience. You're engaged the whole time because you actually it it requires maintenance like of like flipping the record and you know putting taking it in and out of the sleeve.”

    Mike Vinikour @ mid-discussion on records — Articulates the philosophical difference between vinyl and digital music listening, a recurring theme in pinball culture about intentionality vs. passive consumption

  • “I didn't really think care about it before. And then I got hooked on that game, like you know, trying to learn all the moves, the different characters. I thought it was really cool.”

    Mike Vinikour @ discussing Mortal Kombat discovery — Describes the 'hook' moment that led to his Mortal Kombat obsession—Subzero's fatality—which cascaded into his arcade career and eventual industry entry

  • “I racked up 105 wins before I willingly lost because I had to go home because I was late for like a day.”

    Mike Vinikour @ Mortal Kombat proficiency story — Demonstrates his elite-level Mortal Kombat 2 skill and the capacity to dominate arcade play during peak MK popularity

  • “I'm probably one of the best Mortal Kombat 2 players. anyone on the planet, certainly in Chicago. I would love to be a game tester at your company, but I don't even know how one would go about that or if you need that.”

    Mike Vinikour @ meeting Bill Davstein at Bowel Prophets show — The bold pitch that led to his career entry at Midway Games; demonstrates confidence in his ability and willingness to network

  • “I helped I I helped create the QA department at Midway Games because there wasn't one. There you go. Like legit.”

    Mike Vinikour — Establishes MXV's role in formalizing game quality assurance practices at a major arcade/console publisher during the 1990s

Entities

Mike VinikourpersonJeeoffpersonBill DavsteinpersonEddie Frierperson[name withheld pending review]personBowel ProphetsorganizationMidway Gamescompany

Signals

  • ?

    content_signal: Mike Vinikour (MXV) featured on Dirty Pool Podcast as expert on pinball rules design; episode positioned to explore his multifaceted background in gaming, music, and design philosophy

    high · Episode title 'Designing Modern Pinball Rules' and host's framing of MXV as 'extremely well-known individual' with design expertise

  • ?

    design_philosophy: MXV's pinball design approach likely influenced by diverse background: arcade mastery, QA/testing rigor, punk rock ethos (DIY, rebellion, authenticity), vinyl culture (attention to detail, physical media), concert documentation (visual storytelling)

    medium · Host notes MXV 'you know how to tell a story. You've got the gift of Gab' and references 'interesting history' spanning video games, records, and creative pursuits

  • ?

    personnel_signal: MXV's extensive QA experience at Midway Games (1994-2001) during formative arcade/console era suggests deep understanding of game balance, player psychology, and competitive dynamics applicable to pinball rule design

    high · MXV worked on Mortal Kombat series and helped formalize QA processes; tested games across multiple design philosophies

  • ?

    community_signal: MXV's punk rock background (fanzine creation, DIY mentality, concert documentation) aligns with indie pinball manufacturing philosophy (Spooky, Jersey Jack, Multimorphic) and boutique designer ethos in modern scene

    medium · MXV describes punk scene as requiring contribution ('be in a band or start a fanzene'); this mirrors boutique pinball maker culture where designers wear multiple hats and embrace grassroots community building

  • ?

Transcript

youtube_auto_sub · $0.000

0:06
[laughter] Get out of my shot, Sid. I mean, hey everybody. Welcome to the next episode of the Dirty Pool podcast. Uh, today's every I I don't know, man. I need to do the same intro where I say everyday is a special day, but I'm also extremely excited for this episode. Uh, I am joined by an extremely well-known individual, MXV. You may have seen his skill shot on plenty of your pinball machines. Uh, it's Mike Vinor. Everybody, say hi. Hello everybody. Thanks for having me on the podcast, Jeeoff. >> Absolutely, man. Thank you for joining.
0:33
Absolutely, man. Thank you for joining.
0:33
Absolutely, man. Thank you for joining. So, uh, you and I got to talk at Transformers when we came out to play it. Super fun game. Shout out to Eisman and, uh, Gizki. Um, and we kind of immediately clicked because you have, uh, a very interesting history, man. You've got video game stuff, which we share. You have record collection stuff, which we share. It's just a fascinating dude. Uh, you know how to tell a story. You've got the gift of Gab. Uh, I have been warned to get prepared to cut you off if need be. Uh, but without further ado, we can we share some stories. Can we get into it? >> I'd be happy to. And like I said, I
1:06
I'd be happy to. And like I said, I

high confidence · MXV stated this directly when discussing his favorite concert photography experience

@ Midway Games history section

  • “You wish Pinside would realize that, right? [regarding positive feedback spurring creative development]”

    Jeeoff (host) @ discussion of photography encouragement — Brief but pointed critique of Pinside community dynamics; suggests criticism culture may stifle creative contribution

  • “Like punk rock and metal, you know, like thrash metal and all the variants thereof, death metal, black metal, you name it. You know, uh modern music loves subcategories doesn't it?”

    Mike Vinikour @ music genre discussion — Reflects on how music subgenres proliferated, relevant to understanding niche communities (like pinball) that also segment heavily

    • Mortal Kombat
    game
    Revolution Xgame
    Terminator 2: Judgment Daygame
    Skinny Puppyorganization
    Boards of Canadaorganization
    Dirty Pool Podcastcontent
    Just Gamesvenue
    Punk Vaultcontent
    The Beatlesorganization
    Marilyn Mansonorganization

    design_innovation: MXV's demonstrated mastery of Mortal Kombat (elite competitive player, 105-win streak, random character selection) suggests deep understanding of skill expression and mechanical balance—core principles of pinball rule design

    medium · MXV was arcade champion-level player; later QA tester who evaluated game balance and playtesting feedback from developers

  • ?

    industry_signal: MXV's role in formalizing QA at Midway Games (1994-2001) reflects broader industry trend of professionalization; contrasts with current gaming industry where QA jobs are often disposable contractor positions despite larger team sizes

    high · MXV states he 'lobbied for them to make it a full-time position' and helped establish the QA department; host notes current game industry ships with more bugs despite much larger QA teams

  • ?

    historical_signal: MXV's experiences (1980s-1990s arcade culture, Mortal Kombat peak popularity, 8 tokens for $1) capture critical period of arcade's commercial height and cultural significance before home console dominance

    high · Describes Mortal Kombat 2 popularity with 'constant two-player play from open to close' and three machines at Just Games; contrasts with modern consolidated gaming

  • ?

    content_signal: Jeeoff's aside comment ('You wish Pinside would realize that [regarding positive feedback]') suggests ongoing tension in pinball community between constructive encouragement and overly critical culture; impacts creator retention

    high · Host directly references Pinside community dynamics as potentially discouraging; MXV's anecdote about initial photography feedback corroborates value of positive reinforcement for skill development

  • $

    market_signal: MXV's 16,000+ vinyl record collection (44 years accumulation) reflects passionate niche collecting behavior similar to pinball machine collecting; both require significant capital, space, maintenance, and emotional investment

    high · MXV describes curating collection with database system, storage organization (poly sleeves orientation tracking), and deliberate acquisition workflow; parallels pinball collector mentality

  • ?

    restoration_signal: MXV's vinyl collecting practices (proper storage, cleaning protocols, acoustic treatment, cataloging) mirror pinball cabinet restoration/preservation approaches and reflect shared value for tangible, maintainable technology

    medium · MXV discusses learning to 'take care of them properly' at junior high; mentions cleaning records, storage methods, and using records as acoustic treatment—parallels pinball maintenance culture

  • ?

    content_signal: MXV operates as multi-platform content creator (Instagram photography posts, website, concert documentation) similar to modern pinball content ecosystem (YouTube, Twitch, podcasts); indicates comfort with community engagement

    high · Host encourages listeners to follow MXV's Instagram (@punkfault), visit punkvault.com website; MXV actively posts concert photography and vinyl collection documentation

    • 1:06
    I'd be happy to. And like I said, I could tell as many stories as you have time for. So >> amazing. Uh, well, first and foremost,
    1:11
    amazing. Uh, well, first and foremost,
    1:11
    amazing. Uh, well, first and foremost, we got to talk about the record collection because, uh, you really blew my mind with the number of records you have. And before we before we reveal that number, can you tell me how long have you been collecting records and what even got you into it? Um, so I'm I'm sitting in the living room of the house that I grew up in. Like I've lived in the same place I kept it, you know, when my mom passed. This room I'm talking to you in is where I first was exposed to music for the first time and rec, you know, vinyl records. My dad played me his Beatles records when I was like five or six years old. And I was instantly obsessed with music and fascinated by the actual physical media of vinyl records, which was the medium back then. like cassettes weren't even really big at that point. They were still pretty new and not as popular until the Walkman came out. So since the age of five or six, um I was obsessed with music from like it was like flipping a light switch on. And I used to get like an a meager allowance of like a dollar a week every week for I didn't really earn it. I didn't do anything around the house as a little kid. I think they were trying to teach me the value of money. >> For being alive
    2:17
    For being alive
    2:17
    For being alive >> pretty much. Yeah. It's like, "Hey, you
    2:19
    pretty much. Yeah. It's like, "Hey, you
    2:19
    pretty much. Yeah. It's like, "Hey, you didn't break any bones this week. here's a dollar and I would run immediately run down to the Kmart at the end of the street and buy like a 45 of some song I liked on the radio. So I started collecting records when I was probably like six and then uh but I didn't start seriously collecting them until I got into like junior high school and I learned how to take care of them properly. Nothing from like grade school lasted and I'd just been obsessed with it my entire life. Like I never stopped buying them. It's been it was my first love in life was records and music. So for people who are of the digital generation and don't understand the process at the effort that goes into playing a record like how would you describe the kind of like because there's like a romantic physicalness of taking the time to put a record on to flip it over and like just the process of listening to music is less disposable than it is with like Spotify. >> Absolutely. Like it's a real investment
    3:11
    Absolutely. Like it's a real investment
    3:11
    Absolutely. Like it's a real investment of like time and energy. Like because I've got such a vast collection, like first of all, just pick picking out something to listen to could be take me either seconds or like a half an hour because I'll just be flipping through like what what speaks to me right now. But then you got to take it out of the sleeve. You got to put it on there. Sometimes you got to clean it. Um and then put the needle down. You have to get up there and flip it over when you know side A is done. It's it's not a passive experience, you know. It's a It's an active experience. You're engaged the whole time because you actually it it requires maintenance like of like flipping the record and you know put taking it in and out of the sleeve. Also, from the minute my dad showed me what a record was and handed me the record cover for the Beatles, he had two. He had Hard Days Night and Magical Mystery Tour. Mag Magical Mystery Tour had a booklet inside the gatefold. So, I'm like listening to this music, which I never heard before, and I'm fascinated by the images in this booklet, and I'm imagining what it's like, like how these guys are playing music, what it would be like on a I'm just like I'm just engrossed in the whole thing. Whereas digital music, you know, I listen to that in my car. It's a passive thing. It's in the background while you're doing something else. >> Yeah. As you mentioned, the like art
    4:23
    Yeah. As you mentioned, the like art
    4:23
    Yeah. As you mentioned, the like art experience that comes from opening like a a designed package that comes with the music. It's not just like a single song. And which is way different now because you know a lot of what because of digital culture because of like hits and singles releases you know they don't release like concept albums anymore. Like you'll never see like uh you know like an okay computer again where you know the entire album is kind of like a an art experience. It's a story like it's just these concept albums are gone because that's not the way that that music is presented anymore. >> Right. And like I said it's so
    4:56
    Right. And like I said it's so
    4:56
    Right. And like I said it's so disposable now because of the digital culture. just like everything's like I mean there's nothing to hold in my hand other than my phone and that's in my hand all the time no matter what there's nothing extra about it whereas like you know physical >> I'm paying sometimes my penis is in my
    5:10
    I'm paying sometimes my penis is in my
    5:10
    I'm paying sometimes my penis is in my hand but yeah I hear you mostly the phone [laughter] >> right it's funny you say concept album
    5:15
    right it's funny you say concept album
    5:15
    right it's funny you say concept album my favorite punk rock album all time is a concept album and that's who's Zen Arcade like that that whole double album tells it's a concept album that tells a story and it's kind that's kind of a lost art unless you're King Diamond who still make concept albums. It's like it's it's it's a rare thing these days. >> Totally. And you come from mostly not
    5:34
    Totally. And you come from mostly not
    5:34
    Totally. And you come from mostly not just punk rock because you said you listen to a lot of stuff, but also metal. And I feel like metal is like there's so like you want to talk about where concept albums like really bloom. Like metal is like the the mecca of concept albums. >> Oh, sure. Yeah. But you know, the meat
    5:47
    Oh, sure. Yeah. But you know, the meat
    5:48
    Oh, sure. Yeah. But you know, the meat and potatoes of my musical diet starting at seventh grade, that's when I got turned on to punk rock. And that completely changed my entire life. like the whole course of it was altered for the better. But it's like punk rock, like metal, you know, like thrash metal and all the variants thereof, death metal, black metal, you name it. You know, uh >> modern music loves subcategories,
    6:10
    modern music loves subcategories,
    6:10
    modern music loves subcategories, doesn't it? [laughter] >> Totally. There wasn't that many. It was
    6:13
    Totally. There wasn't that many. It was
    6:13
    Totally. There wasn't that many. It was like everything was punk rock and the punk rock umbrella was huge back in the early 80s, you know, and then as we've aged now it's gotten more into like subg genres, but punk metal like industrial, post punk, goth, alternative, and I still like like some rock staples from the 70s as well. Um, but that's the meat and potatoes. I'd say largely what you're looking at behind me and what's in the adjoining room. I'd say a good 60 65% of my collection is probably punk rocks. >> That's a lot of punk rock. So, we got to
    6:45
    That's a lot of punk rock. So, we got to
    6:45
    That's a lot of punk rock. So, we got to rotate. You got to rotate the camera, but then put it back in the center because we're framed up really good. I want to tell chat here, you got to guess how many records, chat. So, we're gonna I'll give a You know what? We'll do a giveaway. I'll send a t-shirt to whoever gets the closest to how many records you own. And I'm telling you, go higher than you think. >> And if you if you know me personally,
    7:03
    And if you if you know me personally,
    7:03
    And if you if you know me personally, I've told you please don't spoil it for the people that are actually guessing. >> Yeah. Don't cheat. Don't cheat.
    7:07
    Yeah. Don't cheat. Don't cheat.
    7:07
    Yeah. Don't cheat. Don't cheat. >> All right, here we go.
    7:08
    All right, here we go.
    7:08
    All right, here we go. >> This is like the and behind me where
    7:10
    This is like the and behind me where
    7:10
    This is like the and behind me where those lava lamps are, that they're on a shelf of records, too. That's like a 2x4. But then I've got um the front wall by the stereo and the TV. And then I'm not going to get up, but that adjoining room, which in a normal person's house would have been a dining room, that's completely filled every wall floor to ceiling with records. Do they I mean I'm guessing that they also act like a really good sound insulator because like I've got a big diffuser on the wall and the whole room is sound treated with acoustic paneling and such but like you know mass absorbs sound and if you're familiar with music studios there's a thing called mass loaded vinyl which is used to absorb bass frequencies and it's essentially just record vinyl but like a big thick ass sheet of it. So essentially you have filled your place. Does your foundation sink because of how heavy these records are? I need to know. >> Well, it hasn't. And you know, this has
    8:03
    Well, it hasn't. And you know, this has
    8:03
    Well, it hasn't. And you know, this has been going on for decades. So, knock on wood. Hopefully, it stays that way. If I wake up one day and half the the house is like now underground, like more of it, then that will answer your question. But so far so good. >> All right, we've got a few guesses. We
    8:17
    All right, we've got a few guesses. We
    8:17
    All right, we've got a few guesses. We got a few guesses here. I'm gonna let you I'm gonna let you tell chat what it is. Let me let me get through the amount of guesses. Right. Talos has said 12,000. I'm sorry, 1,250. Chad Farthouse says 16,000. Doug says 12,06. Slinger sitting at 2012. Pizza Jake's at 10,000. Some other Doug thinks it's 52,000. Path the weirdos at 75,000. Flood and Hard 18,000. Greybeard 4,500. We got a lot of numbers coming in. >> Do you want to Do you want to say the
    8:45
    Do you want to Do you want to say the
    8:45
    Do you want to Do you want to say the official number? >> I will. I won't give it to the exact
    8:48
    I will. I won't give it to the exact
    8:48
    I will. I won't give it to the exact because I have to go back. I'd have to go. >> Ballpark ballpark is good,
    8:52
    Ballpark ballpark is good,
    8:52
    Ballpark ballpark is good, >> but it's it's a little over 16,000. And
    8:55
    but it's it's a little over 16,000. And
    8:55
    but it's it's a little over 16,000. And so whoever guessed 16,000 that they won the prices, right? >> It came out immediately. So I'm almost
    9:01
    It came out immediately. So I'm almost
    9:01
    It came out immediately. So I'm almost suspicious that they know, but we're going to give it the benefit of the doubt. >> So we'll say Chad Farnhouse, you have
    9:08
    So we'll say Chad Farnhouse, you have
    9:08
    So we'll say Chad Farnhouse, you have one. You have won. Unless you know MXV, you didn't know. All right. Boom. Chad, you're the winner, man. Well done. Ping me on whatever thing and we'll we'll situate a shirt for you. Um, >> so I started collecting hardcore. Like
    9:22
    so I started collecting hardcore. Like
    9:22
    so I started collecting hardcore. Like seriously, we're like, okay, I'm saving stuff. I know how to take care of it. At age 12, I'm 56, so that's 44 years of like obsessive record collecting. >> That's insane. So, you mentioned that
    9:34
    That's insane. So, you mentioned that
    9:34
    That's insane. So, you mentioned that you sit down and sometimes it takes 30 minutes to get through and figure out like what album you're going to listen to. What is MXV's thought process for how how do you figure out what you want to be in the mood for? It it varies, but um I'll tell you that the last two weeks have been me like rolling around in this roller chair like throughout the room and looking I can tell by the orientation of those bags, you know, the the the poly sleeves if they're not sideways where all you have to do is unseal it to pull the record out, then I know I haven't played it in a real long time. >> Right. So, you got to have listened
    10:06
    Right. So, you got to have listened
    10:06
    Right. So, you got to have listened recently versus not. >> Yeah. So, I once I made that switch of
    10:10
    Yeah. So, I once I made that switch of
    10:10
    Yeah. So, I once I made that switch of like why am I put why have I been doing it wrong for all these years and I turned them sideways. Um, if it's still upright where the seals at the top and I have to take the whole cover out of the sleeve to get the record out of the cover, then I know I haven't touched that record in a long time. So, I've been favoring that stuff this last couple weeks and been posting some of that stuff on my Instagram. Um, I I have a perpetual box that never empties of like recent acquisitions. That's usually my go-to first because I've got a whole system like I bring it home, I add it to my database, I put it in that box and it sits there until I play it and then I put it away where it belongs in the collection. >> Sure. Uh, somebody said that that's
    10:48
    Sure. Uh, somebody said that that's
    10:48
    Sure. Uh, somebody said that that's Peter Jake actually said that's almost an album a day for 44 years. He's done the math. >> One of my friends did a quick math on
    10:56
    One of my friends did a quick math on
    10:56
    One of my friends did a quick math on like how long would it take me if all I did was like if I retired and all I did was play records on all my awake hours. And this was like more than a decade ago and it was like well north of a year where if all I did from awake to sleep was listen to music. I would get it would take me over a year to get through the whole collection. >> I mean that's both impressive that if
    11:15
    I mean that's both impressive that if
    11:15
    I mean that's both impressive that if you could commit the amount of time to do that and also it's impressive that you could listen to music that amount straight for a year. I I think you might go crazy. Could you handle listening to music non-stop? Does this count? Like do you sleep in this scenario or No. >> No. I would be sleeping in the scenario
    11:30
    No. I would be sleeping in the scenario
    11:30
    No. I would be sleeping in the scenario that he mapped out very with just like you know napkit math. Right. >> Right. Right. Right.
    11:35
    Right. Right. Right.
    11:35
    Right. Right. Right. >> But I mean music's been such a massive
    11:37
    But I mean music's been such a massive
    11:37
    But I mean music's been such a massive part of my life and it's been this like it's rare that things are quiet for me. I don't listen to it when I'm at work because I need to listen to the games and I'm always talking to people as I'm co-designing things. But outside of work, like if I'm riding my bike, I'm walking, I'm driving, sitting around this living room, it's rare that music's not playing. And the only time in the house it's not is if I got the TV on instead. >> Fascinating.
    12:01
    Fascinating.
    12:01
    Fascinating. >> Typically at the end of a work night,
    12:03
    Typically at the end of a work night,
    12:03
    Typically at the end of a work night, I'll listen to records for a couple hours or more to unwind and then, you know, then go to bed. >> That sounds awesome. You know, I have
    12:11
    That sounds awesome. You know, I have
    12:11
    That sounds awesome. You know, I have two records that I I feel like, you know, we talked about the investment of taking the time to listen to music. I still haven't opened them. like and I mean they're still in the shipping packaging and it's just like there is you know to commit to sitting down and absorbing music and respecting the music that you are listening to I feel like really does take a certain amount of like mental preparation. >> It does and sometimes I'll have stuff
    12:33
    It does and sometimes I'll have stuff
    12:34
    It does and sometimes I'll have stuff sit in that recent acquisitions box for months before I actually feel like playing it. >> Okay, that's good. I don't feel so bad
    12:41
    Okay, that's good. I don't feel so bad
    12:41
    Okay, that's good. I don't feel so bad now. I got the new Boards of Canada album. I was really excited to listen to it and I still haven't and they haven't put an album out really long time. >> I was just on a vacation last month to
    12:50
    I was just on a vacation last month to
    12:50
    I was just on a vacation last month to Seattle. One of my best friends lives out there and he played them for me. I'd never heard them before. I only heard of them and I thought they were pretty good. So like that was that's a new to me band where I guess you got to hear what they sounded like. I'd seen their records. Didn't know anything about them. They turned out >> the found I wouldn't say founders but I
    13:07
    the found I wouldn't say founders but I
    13:07
    the found I wouldn't say founders but I guess you could trip hop I guess would be officially the genre but music has the right to children. a fantastic album of theirs if you're curious what that is. Um, so all right, outside of records though, and we'll get to the whole pinball thing. I realize that this is a pinball podcast and here we are talking about records. Uh, but we're going to talk about you have two other really fascinating things, at least to me, that I think are really great. You're a professional Mortal Kombat player and beta tester, right? >> I was. Yeah, that was that's how I got
    13:34
    I was. Yeah, that was that's how I got
    13:34
    I was. Yeah, that was that's how I got into the industry. But yes, >> can we can we fire that story off?
    13:38
    can we can we fire that story off?
    13:38
    can we can we fire that story off? >> Sure. So, and it it's a good segue from
    13:41
    Sure. So, and it it's a good segue from
    13:41
    Sure. So, and it it's a good segue from music because punk rock specifically led to this. I wouldn't be sitting here right now if it wasn't for punk rock. And I'll tell you why. So, back when Mortal Kombat 1 was a new arcade game, I lived at an arcade for my most of my childhood that was right at the end of my street. It was a block away. And when my cousin re like quit that job and went on to do other things in his life, I still hung out there all the time. And when Mortal Kombat 1 came in there, I I didn't think much of it at that time. I was going to the arcade like once a week, mostly to play pinball and air hockey with one of my two best friends. We'd go every Tuesday to do that because it was like eight tokens for a dollar. But I remember seeing one day I was at just games and I walking past the Mortal Kombat machine and a a a friend of mine who lived in my neighborhood was playing it. So I stopped to say hi to him and I'm watching him play it. I didn't really know know anything about it at all other than it had this cool digitized graphics. I saw him do Subzero's Fatality and I didn't know that that was a thing and I was instantly like I want to do that. Like I gotta start playing this game. >> You didn't mean like to a real person.
    14:45
    You didn't mean like to a real person.
    14:45
    You didn't mean like to a real person. You meant do it in the game, right? Because you can't do that to Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. >> Yeah. Just
    14:48
    Yeah. Just
    14:48
    Yeah. Just >> No. No. I mean clarify.
    14:50
    No. No. I mean clarify.
    14:50
    No. No. I mean clarify. >> Maybe if I had a get out of jail free
    14:52
    Maybe if I had a get out of jail free
    14:52
    Maybe if I had a get out of jail free card, but you know. No, I'm just kidding. A lot of like >> I want to do it in the game. I'm like
    14:56
    I want to do it in the game. I'm like
    14:56
    I want to do it in the game. I'm like that was the hook that got me interested in that game where I'm like I want to try this thing. I didn't really think care about it before. And then I got hooked on that game, like you know, trying to learn all the moves, the different characters. I thought it was really cool. As a young guy that liked horror movies back then, I was really into the graphic violence with, you know, spoke to me, too. Like punk rock and metal kid, right? Who uh well, I wasn't really a kid. I was in my early 20s. But so >> kid at heart,
    15:23
    kid at heart,
    15:23
    kid at heart, >> I was I was the girlfriend I at the
    15:26
    I was I was the girlfriend I at the
    15:26
    I was I was the girlfriend I at the time. I was planning on marrying her [clears throat] and she broke up with me. So now I had this abundance of time because my the entire course of my life had just changed, right? I had this whole future mapped out. It it got turned upside down. So I just doubled down on my obsession on this Mortal Kombat video game. And then number two came out and then I got a job at that same just games as the assistant manager. So I'm in there all day long playing the thing when I'm not at my other jobs. And I got and then I would stay after hours and practice. And I got so insanely good at it that I rarely ever lost a match. And then >> that's a bold claim.
    16:05
    that's a bold claim.
    16:05
    that's a bold claim. >> Yeah. I would I would travel around to
    16:08
    Yeah. I would I would travel around to
    16:08
    Yeah. I would I would travel around to different arcades to play like find more. It's like Rayu where he wanted to go find the next challenge, right? Like >> I would go to like the local arcades and
    16:17
    I would go to like the local arcades and
    16:17
    I would go to like the local arcades and be like, I'm going to go fight these people and see if there's see if I met and I rarely like again I rarely lost and there was a couple of kids that were better than me in the city. Um, but I was easily at the same level, you know. I was like, >> "Sure." And this is peak popularity. So
    16:31
    "Sure." And this is peak popularity. So
    16:31
    "Sure." And this is peak popularity. So if you were good in the arcade at Mortal Kombat at that time, like that meant you were pretty good. >> There was a Sunday at Just Games once
    16:38
    There was a Sunday at Just Games once
    16:38
    There was a Sunday at Just Games once where they had three Mortal Kombat 2 machines because it was that popular. And it was constant two-player play from open to close. I racked up 105 wins before I willingly lost because I had to go home because I was late [laughter] for like a day. >> Oh, wait, wait, wait, hold on. So, I
    16:54
    Oh, wait, wait, wait, hold on. So, I
    16:54
    Oh, wait, wait, wait, hold on. So, I want to just quickly interject that this is live and we are reading questions. Uh, even even if we're not interjecting, but I have a really excellent one as a quick segue. Nick NS on YouTube wants to know, "What's your favorite fatality?" >> My favorite fatality? Gosh, in MK1, it
    17:09
    My favorite fatality? Gosh, in MK1, it
    17:09
    My favorite fatality? Gosh, in MK1, it was Johnny Cage's one where he put way uppercut off the dude's head and Subzero was a very close second, which was the first one I ever saw. >> Sure.
    17:17
    Sure.
    17:17
    Sure. >> I don't know about number two. So many
    17:19
    I don't know about number two. So many
    17:19
    I don't know about number two. So many good ones, it was hard to pick a favorite in number two. Well, as a followup to that, we'll do rapid fire. Flood and Hard wants to know, uh, who's your MK2 main. >> I always picked random select. I was
    17:30
    I always picked random select. I was
    17:30
    I always picked random select. I was that good. >> I'm like, you could pick your guy, but
    17:34
    I'm like, you could pick your guy, but
    17:34
    I'm like, you could pick your guy, but I'm random selecting all day long. >> And if you Chad move there. [laughter]
    17:39
    And if you Chad move there. [laughter]
    17:39
    And if you Chad move there. [laughter] >> And if I played if I got reptile, I
    17:41
    And if I played if I got reptile, I
    17:41
    And if I played if I got reptile, I would do my best to do the entire match invisible. >> Amazing. All right, enough questions for
    17:48
    Amazing. All right, enough questions for
    17:48
    Amazing. All right, enough questions for now. All right, back to it. So, punk rock connected you to this. you you are now playing professionally. You're kicking people's asses all over the city. >> So, I'm I'm obsessed with number one,
    17:57
    So, I'm I'm obsessed with number one,
    17:57
    So, I'm I'm obsessed with number one, but way way more obsessed with number two. It was like every waking moment I wasn't at one of my jobs. And sometimes when I was at one, which was at that arcade, I was playing this thing. Then I I always thought, man, it would be I would love to be like a game tester and work on Mortal Kombat, but I don't know how one gets that job. So, I'm at a bowl show. They're a Chicago punk rock band. They're friends of mine. Fantastic band. They started like right around 89 or 90. Um, they're still around today. I'm at one of their shows with some friends. They're playing at a place called Wrigley Side. I go walk to the bar to go get I'm going to go buy myself a drink and I see a tall skinny guy wearing a Mortal Kombat shirt and I'm like and you couldn't buy merch at the store for Mortal Kombat back in 1994. So, I'm like I want to know where he got the shirt and I didn't really I was a shy guy but like like a little kid like I ran up all excited. Where'd you get that shirt? I want it. And he turned out that he worked at Midway Games, you know, which was Williams Valley Midway was all one company. And I'm like, and I didn't believe him. I made him show me his business card. His name was Bill Davstein. His punk rock name was Bill Dozer. Um, so he pulls out his business card. >> Were the words out of your mouth
    19:09
    Were the words out of your mouth
    19:09
    Were the words out of your mouth literally, "I don't believe me or I don't believe you. Show me your business card. Well, I like I I don't know what what the language rating is on your podcast. >> [ __ ] [ __ ] poop.
    19:21
    [ __ ] [ __ ] poop.
    19:21
    [ __ ] [ __ ] poop. >> All right. Well, all right. Well, all
    19:23
    All right. Well, all right. Well, all
    19:23
    All right. Well, all right. Well, all right. So, I'm going to drop an F. I'm like, get the [ __ ] out of here. You do not. And he goes, I do. I go, you don't. And like again, I'm arguing with a perfect stranger. And then [clears throat] he like, look, he pulled me [laughter] the business card. And then my eyes lit up. Like, oh my god, you do. And then I just basically said like, hey, I'm probably one of the best Mortal Kombat 2 players. anyone on the planet, certainly in Chicago. I would love to be a game tester at your company, but I don't even know how one would go about that or if you need that. Sure. >> Do you?
    19:50
    Do you?
    19:50
    Do you? >> Legit question.
    19:51
    Legit question.
    19:51
    Legit question. >> And he goes and and he goes, "Uh,
    19:54
    And he goes and and he goes, "Uh,
    19:54
    And he goes and and he goes, "Uh, actually, I'm working on a game. We could use some testing. Give me your number and I'll call you." I thought he'd throw away my number as soon as I turned around. He was standing next to the trash can, but to his credit, about a month later, my phone rang and it was He's like, "Hey, this build, you still want to test games? We're ready." I'm like, >> I think I remember what game that was.
    20:10
    I think I remember what game that was.
    20:10
    I think I remember what game that was. Can you tell me if I'm right? Was it Did it involve launching CDs? >> Yeah. The Aerosmith shooter, the one
    20:18
    Yeah. The Aerosmith shooter, the one
    20:18
    Yeah. The Aerosmith shooter, the one that used the same framework engine as the Terminator 2 shooter game. >> Yeah. Same team, by the way. Same design
    20:24
    Yeah. Same team, by the way. Same design
    20:24
    Yeah. Same team, by the way. Same design team. So that's why um it was Revolution X. They brought me in there to play that. And then that was my foot in the door. And then this other kid named Eddie Frier, they brought him in starting the second time. Um and he had tested Mortal Kombat 1 and two. was just he was a few years younger than me. They found him at an arcade. Best game player I ever met in my entire life for video games. Um he he and I when we would take breaks from play from testing Revolution X would go play the Mortal Kombat 2 in the in the video developing, you know, in the engineering department. Sure. >> And we would draw a crowd of all the
    20:59
    And we would draw a crowd of all the
    20:59
    And we would draw a crowd of all the developers watching us play because they're like, "Oh my god, we didn't even know you guys people could play like this." And other teams started asking us, "Hey, when our game is ready, will you will you guys come work on our game?" and we're like, "Yeah." So that was my my foot in the door was meeting Bill at the show and then my talent is what kept me and then I lobbyed for them to make it a full-time position because we used to just be contractors and then I like I'm like look I'm at this stage in life I need a full-time job with benefits >> like put up or shut up and uh
    21:29
    like put up or shut up and uh
    21:29
    like put up or shut up and uh >> it's weird it's weird that quality
    21:31
    it's weird it's weird that quality
    21:31
    it's weird it's weird that quality control or QA gaming like jobs you had pull back then because that's not exactly that's a job that is frequently a disposable situation now in modern gaming, which is sad because so many of these games come out with [ __ ] tons of bugs and you know if they had a bigger team that was more competent or made better then they wouldn't have such issues >> back then. Like that I mean the entirety
    21:55
    back then. Like that I mean the entirety
    21:55
    back then. Like that I mean the entirety of the Mortal Kombat team was less than 10 people. Now the Mortal Kombat games they make for consoles is like four or 500 people probably development size. I mean that's just and that's internal team. You got outsourcers, vendors, all sorts of stuff too. So back then the teams would just test their own stuff, you know, they would just play it as they developed it. They'd put the game in the hallway for all their co-workers to play and then they would just field bugs as people would say, "Hey, something weird happened." Um, so really like I helped I I helped create the QA department at Midway Games because there wasn't one. >> There you go. Like legit.
    22:34
    There you go. Like legit.
    22:34
    There you go. Like legit. >> And then
    22:35
    And then
    22:35
    And then >> Yeah. So that was my that's my start in
    22:37
    Yeah. So that was my that's my start in
    22:37
    Yeah. So that was my that's my start in this business was because I wanted to work on Mortal Kombat and the second project I worked on was Mortal Kombat 3 and then uh and then I just you know I was there until they from 1994 until 2001. >> So towards the end of this we're we're
    22:51
    So towards the end of this we're we're
    22:51
    So towards the end of this we're we're getting towards the pinball portion. >> Right.
    22:54
    Right.
    22:54
    Right. >> Before we do that though with our last
    22:56
    Before we do that though with our last
    22:56
    Before we do that though with our last music sendoff you uh you're a photographer as well if you aren't familiar with uh your Instagram which you should go follow Mike. I will include it in the description later. Uh, but it's punk punk vault, right? I forget the punk vault, right? >> Yeah. And that's also the name on my
    23:10
    Yeah. And that's also the name on my
    23:10
    Yeah. And that's also the name on my website is the Punk Vault. So, if you go to punk vinyl or punkvault.com, either one will take you to my actual website where you can see all the photography. I'll post samples of it on my Instagram, but you got to sift through like hundreds of posts of me posting nerdy record pictures of what I'm listening to at any given time. I haven't shot a show in a few months >> because I was on crutches for a while
    23:30
    because I was on crutches for a while
    23:30
    because I was on crutches for a while and I couldn't walk. So, I I'm I haven't shot a show since like March, but I'm going to now that I'm back on my feet, I'm going to get back to it very shortly. >> So, what got you interested in doing
    23:39
    So, what got you interested in doing
    23:39
    So, what got you interested in doing this? You told me an interesting story where you were kind of shooting behind the scenes for bands before that was even a thing. >> So, I when I got into punk rock, like
    23:48
    So, I when I got into punk rock, like
    23:48
    So, I when I got into punk rock, like the whole thing in the early 80s was like, oh, you got to contribute to the scene somehow, like be in a band or or start a fanzene or whatever, right? Put on shows in your backyard or your garage. I couldn't I as much as I love music I was too shy to be a singer and I didn't know how to play any instruments. So I'm like well I like to talk like at least to my friends like not to I'm shy otherwise. Um I'll start a fan zene because I'm obsessed with music and it'll be my way to contribute something to my little punk rock scene. >> I mean you could have done you could
    24:17
    I mean you could have done you could
    24:17
    I mean you could have done you could have done a spoken word punk rock band. No bad ideas I >> was such a shy kid. Like people don't
    24:25
    was such a shy kid. Like people don't
    24:25
    was such a shy kid. Like people don't believe it, but I was like I couldn't speak in front of the audience. I was really self-conscious. Like I wasn't super popular growing up. >> That clearly changed. You have you were
    24:35
    That clearly changed. You have you were
    24:35
    That clearly changed. You have you were very confident and very like uh what do you call it? Approachable approach. What's the Yeah, >> I don't I think pro wrestling helped get
    24:44
    I don't I think pro wrestling helped get
    24:44
    I don't I think pro wrestling helped get me out of that shell like when I used to help run a wrestling company. Um I never wrestled by the I wasn't built for the inring stuff, but that kind of helped get me out of shell and just age. And it's now I find it's easy to talk about stuff I like. Put me in front of there and talk about like world events. I'm I'm clueless and I have nothing to offer. But >> there's nothing good going on in the
    25:04
    there's nothing good going on in the
    25:04
    there's nothing good going on in the world. Let's keep it to records. [laughter]
    25:11
    So that was my way. So I started a fans
    25:11
    So that was my way. So I started a fans and then eventually like I didn't really know how a camera worked and my dad gave me one and I just would spray and pray. I didn't and this was film camera so it was an expensive experiment. I never really got good at it and I put it down for a long time. Then in like 2003 like uh I was like I had like a personal blog and I would write about hey I went to this concert and my one of my really close friends gave me a point andoot digital camera. Go start taking that to this show with you and take some pictures to go with the little story you write on your little blog. Right. And then uh so I did and my friend Jason's encouragement to do that and giving me a camera, I eventually got as good as you can with a point and shoot then got like a real DSLR and then people started saying you know your your stuff is good and that just made me want to do it more and it was like that became the fun of concerts for me was like I didn't care about buying a ticket and standing there. I wanted to like to me I wanted to document it just like I used to write about music. I wanted to write about music again and like document these shows and have like visual proof of those photos. Sure. And I got really good at it. >> It's crazy how much positive feedback
    26:17
    It's crazy how much positive feedback
    26:17
    It's crazy how much positive feedback can really help like the creative development, creative spirit. You wish Pinside would realize that, right? >> Totally. Like I I mean when I look back
    26:28
    Totally. Like I I mean when I look back
    26:28
    Totally. Like I I mean when I look back at the stuff that people were encouraging me on, I'm like that stuff is is [ __ ] terrible. Like I didn't I was just still learning, right? I was super green. But that encouragement made me want to get better and just keep at it. I'm like, somebody's appreciating this besides myself. Like, I'm going to keep going. And then, you know, that's so that became my thing where like I shoot concerts and like, you know, that's become my side my side hustle. >> What was what is your favorite and least
    26:54
    What was what is your favorite and least
    26:54
    What was what is your favorite and least favorite I shot a concert experience. >> Um, I guess my favorite selfishly would
    27:00
    Um, I guess my favorite selfishly would
    27:00
    Um, I guess my favorite selfishly would be all the times I shot Skinny Puppy because it's my favorite band in the universe and I got to shoot him a whole bunch of times. I think I shot him like six or seven times out of the 24 times I saw him in life. And then uh one of the worst experiences was one of them was Marilyn Manson because we get there and we knew ahead of time you only get the first song but then like right before they come out they're like you can only stand on the sides of this barricade. You can't even come in. And I'm like if I knew that this was going to happen I wouldn't have wasted my time. >> Yeah. Right. you know, coming here to to
    27:34
    Yeah. Right. you know, coming here to to
    27:34
    Yeah. Right. you know, coming here to to get horrible shots. And then there was a a time like Echo and the Bunny Men, me and a friend were was also a photographer were were shooting them. We're in the barricade and their stage manager comes out and yells at us very rudely and says, "Get out of here. You can't shoot in here." We're like, "That's not what your publicist said. This is how we arranged this." And he kick he's like, "Get out of here. I'll kick you out of the I'll have you kicked out of the venue. You can only shoot from the soundboard." And at that point, I just went home. I'm like, I didn't bring along. And this isn't >> there's not a lot of communication
    28:06
    there's not a lot of communication
    28:06
    there's not a lot of communication between people in tour management. Like my friend who was recently on the podcast or I'm sorry, on the live stream does that for professionally. And it's just like, you know, too many heads and no none of them talk to each other. >> Yeah. Overall though, like like I said,
    28:21
    Yeah. Overall though, like like I said,
    28:21
    Yeah. Overall though, like like I said, I wouldn't buy a ticket and go to a concert these days. That's not the fun in it for me being a spectator. Like my way of participating is the documentation. Like I'm in it for the photography. I absolutely still love the music. I love to see the shows, but I want to but when I'm at a show like I'm like, how do I how do I get good photos of this, you know? And that's that's the drive for me. >> And which is an excellent service
    28:43
    And which is an excellent service
    28:43
    And which is an excellent service because most people that take photos of shows like on their phone. They're garbage, you know? It's just like you don't have the access, the angle, or the equipment because you're not bringing your DSLR to go listen to your favorite band usually, you know. Um, Pinm's here. He wants to know, uh, did you shoot DOA? He loves that band. I have a few times. Yeah, they played a number of the early riot fest and I shot them once at the original bottom lounge and maybe also at Reggie's. It's been a few. And going back into high school, I wasn't a photographer then, but I saw DOA once or twice when I was a teenager, too, like back when I was still in school. >> So, we know that you love listening to
    29:21
    So, we know that you love listening to
    29:21
    So, we know that you love listening to music. We know that you have an excellent eye for determining what's right and wrong in a video game. At some point you start working with Stern on a little known game called Batman 66. >> Yeah.
    29:34
    Yeah.
    29:34
    Yeah. >> And what what made that opportunity
    29:37
    And what what made that opportunity
    29:37
    And what what made that opportunity happen? >> Um in in two words, Lyman Sheets. And
    29:42
    Um in in two words, Lyman Sheets. And
    29:42
    Um in in two words, Lyman Sheets. And I'll tell you the longer version of it now. So growing up, I was a kid. Yeah. I grew up in the 70s, right? Like I was born in ' 69. So my soon as I could reach the buttons for a pinball machine, there weren't video games yet. My dad liked pinball and he just like he turned me on to music, he turned me on to games. He brought me to that same arcade just games where it was just wall- to-wall pinball machines. They had like 50 pinball machines and as soon as I could reach the button standing on a stool, he brought me there to play pinball with him. I loved it. And then the video games came in. I got super obsessed with it. Right. But my first love of games was my first exposure to it was pinball. when I'm [clears throat] working at Williams Valley Midway, although I'm on the Midway side in video games for like 85% of that cur of that of my run there. Um, I would take breaks all the time from working on video games and go to the pinball building when we when we moved across the street. I'd walk over to the pinball building to go play the latest games they had at the bottom of the stairs. And when we were still in one building, every time we took a break, Eddie and I would go play pinball in the hallway. >> Yeah.
    30:45
    Yeah.
    30:45
    Yeah. >> So, what was your favorite game in my
    30:46
    So, what was your favorite game in my
    30:46
    So, what was your favorite game in my life? It varied. I mean like for decades I would have told you Adam's family from like if you're asking me in the 90s on but like back up before that like I loved Space Shuttle. I love Pinbot, you know, Highspeed. Like back in the old old days like Blackout, Firepower, Haunted House. Like we had so many different games just games and I played them all, you know, or most of them, whatever I had access to. So I've always loved pinball and at some point I get super burned out on video games. I've been in that industry for like 20 years. I didn't really want to do it anymore, but I kind of painted myself in the corner of like the one industry I've only been in most of my adult life. So, I told myself, I really, if I'm going to stay in this business, it's got to be in pinball because that's the only thing I still love. And every time I was between gigs, Lyman would go pitch for Stern to hire me. Like, he lobbyed pretty hard from time to time, you know, during random bouts of unemployment. And the timing just wasn't there. like nobody was against it, but it it was, you know, the time wasn't right for the company until finally it was. And then uh George uh George Gomez, you know, came and offered me the gig and I was that's where I wanted to be for like more than a decade. So when he offered me the job, like I immediately, you know, yes. And >> kind of a no-brainer for sure.
    32:06
    kind of a no-brainer for sure.
    32:06
    kind of a no-brainer for sure. >> It was a total no-brainer. Um because
    32:09
    It was a total no-brainer. Um because
    32:09
    It was a total no-brainer. Um because like I said, Lyman tried forever. I wanted I had friends at Stern. I had great respect for George. We worked together in the old days, you know, at Williams Valley Midway and about a third of the product development group I knew already because we all worked together in the past. So I'm like I was like that's where I'm supposed to be and I it was finally it made sense the timing was right for it to happen >> and and what an absolute legend to work
    32:33
    and and what an absolute legend to work
    32:33
    and and what an absolute legend to work under work with. How would you explain your your relationship working with the software designer, which is going to come back because a lot of what you do doesn't involve programming, but you work very close with the programmer. So, I'm kind of like warming up to that question. >> Sure. Yeah. So, when George hired me,
    32:49
    Sure. Yeah. So, when George hired me,
    32:49
    Sure. Yeah. So, when George hired me, like we were talking, he's like, "Well, what do you want to do at Stern?" And I'm like, "Well, here's all my skills. What do you guys need?" And I think he in his head knew he wanted to they needed a somebody to do software testing. and he wanted to hear like all of my ideas before he just said, "Well, I really need you for this." I'm like, "I'll do whatever you want, you know?" So, he hired me to be a software tester. But from day from before day one, he always encouraged me like, "I want you to like branch out and find your path like in here. Like, I want you to grow. Like, I'm bringing you in for this, but there's room for growth for you. Like, there's there's potential, you know." And he more than made good on his word. every time I would go, "Hey, can I sit in on this meeting or can I pitch this?" He there was never a no. And he he's like, "Yes." He goes, "I'll keep you can do whatever you want. I will encourage it if you're doing well and I will redirect you if you're not. You know, I'll I'll I'll steer you in another path." But no, I welcome it. So, uh, he gave me the sandbox to like, you know, to find my and the room to find my way. Um, so the first project I worked on was with Lyman and Lyman and I were really good friends. We worked together at Williams Valley Midway. We played in a pinball league together. Like we would go hang out at like various pinball like expo every year. We get together. We, you know, every once in a while we go out to eat. Like we were we were good friends for, you know, I was friends with him for a good 25 years. He was one of my close friends until he passed. Um, so I brought in I'm like I'm I'm doing software testing on Batman. And then shortly afterwards I started on Aerosmith, too. But there was a point where like Lyman was like looking for a direction, like trying to find the direction of what he wanted to do with Batman. He was still kind of figuring it out. And then I offered like, well, why don't you bounce some ideas off of me? So, uh, and I'm like, and I'll just throw stuff at you and whatever you like, write it down. Let's see what sticks. And so that's what we did. And it became much more collaborative as that project went on. He's still the bus driver and 90% of those ideas were his. I'm not trying to take credit for anything he did, but I did I contributed more than I ever would have dreamed I would have contributed to a game, especially one of his. >> Sure.
    34:58
    Sure.
    34:58
    Sure. >> And it was at times it was a really good
    35:00
    And it was at times it was a really good
    35:00
    And it was at times it was a really good and always fun collaboration. >> Would you almost say that Lyman kind of
    35:05
    Would you almost say that Lyman kind of
    35:05
    Would you almost say that Lyman kind of was like the gateway for you wouldn't be doing you're almost carrying on his ideas in a certain way, would you say? because I mean if collaborating with him so early on I feel like that that collaborative experience just kind of rubs both directions. >> So yes um even before we worked together
    35:23
    So yes um even before we worked together
    35:24
    So yes um even before we worked together Lman and I talked regularly and the number one topic was pinball. We both love pinball. We he also loved video games too. We both shared a love of arcade games as well. But you know the meat and potatoes of most conversations had something to do with pinball. We would play games together. We would talk about what we like and we didn't like. and a lot of our uh opinions on stuff were very aligned. You know, we both had similar likes and dislikes of various games and game design elements. So, um and then when I came to work at Stern now, we're two offices away from each other and throughout any part of the day, we're in each other's offices for sometimes hours if you add it all up on any given day talking about the games we're working on, talking about the other games in the company, and just games in general. We got to lunch a lot. So, I didn't realize how much he taught me through all of this and through working on a few games with him at Stern until after he passed. And now I've evolved into doing likeing aiding in rule design on projects and I'm not really software testing anymore. And um then there was this moment of like, wow, he really was such a greater influence on me than I realized. And I think a lot I attribute a lot of what people like about what I do now to the things that I learned from him. >> I mean, that's awesome. I I feel like a
    36:51
    I mean, that's awesome. I I feel like a
    36:51
    I mean, that's awesome. I I feel like a lot of times it's not until people are gone that we realize the effect that they had either actively or passively. when when he passed and Lonnie and I were working on James Bond together, like we're getting close to like the end where like the game's really what it is now or close to what it is now. And I he Lonnie and I are both very proud of that game. Like and you know there will be one in my house someday like I still have yet to I still have to buy one and it's at the top of my list like next time some money frees up that's the thing I'm bringing home. But um I always wondered like what Lman would think of it and I would I really believe that he would be proud and like that game and be like proud of what we did um and like and the stuff that I brought to the table on that because a lot of it like was his influence that rubbed off on me that I tried to put my own little spin on, you know. >> What would you say is your game
    37:44
    What would you say is your game
    37:44
    What would you say is your game >> that's your like most proud
    37:48
    that's your like most proud
    37:48
    that's your like most proud contribution? >> I think so. Uh James Bond was my largest
    37:52
    I think so. Uh James Bond was my largest
    37:52
    I think so. Uh James Bond was my largest role design role uh at that time and it still largely is although John Wick is pretty much the same. >> Yeah, there you go. There's one right
    38:01
    Yeah, there you go. There's one right
    38:02
    Yeah, there you go. There's one right behind you. So um I like I said I really enjoyed working and collaborating with Lonnie on that game and we're both very proud of it. Like career highlight for sure. But I have different reasons I like different games I worked on. Batman was my first lineman and I have our name on a patent for the channel changing thing we invented together. That's like that patent's hanging up on my wall next to my desk down in my basement because I work remote. You know, >> what's a game that you were brought in
    38:27
    what's a game that you were brought in
    38:27
    what's a game that you were brought in on that you feel that you kind of rebirth, you know? I mean, there's a lot of games where they come out and the code is just like it's there, it's framework, it's ready to go, but the like the ideas that really make it like a truly memorable experience haven't really occurred yet. Well, I think a common misunderstanding of what we do at Stern, like or at least specifically as it applied to me, I I didn't step in and save or fix Bond or Stranger Things or any of these games. Sometimes a game comes out and it's pretty bare bones and it's not, you know, it's not the ideal situation, but for various reasons, a game has to come out when it has to come out. And James Bond was a textbook example of that. That design team for James Bond was always from day one George Gomez, Lonnie Rob, and me. It was a three-man team from the beginning. So, I didn't step in to do anything like it was a collaboration, especially between me and Lonnie from from the word go. But because the game had to ship when it did, there wasn't a whole lot in it, right? There was a couple of modes and a multiball or two and it took as long as it took to get it to what it is now, but what it is now was always the plan. So, it's it's a little discouraging when people are like, "Oh, MXV came in there and saved that game." Or, "I didn't save anything." Like, that was always Lonnie and me from day one and George had input, too. But it just took us that long to get it there for a variety of reasons. >> Um, no, Captain Booty. I'm not going to
    40:00
    Um, no, Captain Booty. I'm not going to
    40:00
    Um, no, Captain Booty. I'm not going to ask that. This isn't about where the state of games are. I I understand that there's plenty of people that want to see games have certain things done to them and wish that they were at a certain place, but not not the place for it. You can always message Mike on his personal Instagram. I'm sure he would love to receive all those messages. So, uh yeah, go ahead, check out the Punk Vault on Instagram and send all of your requests about where your code is and why it's not in your game uh right there. [laughter] Um, >> all right. So, you've now you've got
    40:27
    all right. So, you've now you've got
    40:27
    all right. So, you've now you've got your established moment, right, with Batman 66 and Stern sees that you are like you've got a talent for finding ways to make games more than the sum of their parts. And I think would you say that that's kind of what do you feel in terms of your contribution since you're not writing code? You know, ideas have a lot of value when it comes to pinball in terms of making replayability. Would you say replayability is kind of what your mark is in when it comes to rules modification? >> I guess I mean it was like a slow burn,
    40:59
    I guess I mean it was like a slow burn,
    40:59
    I guess I mean it was like a slow burn, right? Like I started doing software testing but by default and this happened back on Mortal Kombat like we weren't just looking for bugs like we really had a lot of influence on the gameplay of even Mortal Kombat of like you know like we were more Ed always called us analysts because we would analyze the gameplay and be like this is fun this sucks. Did you ever did you ever say analist because it's funny because it has the word anal in it? >> No,
    41:22
    No,
    41:22
    No, >> I'm sure somebody there probably did.
    41:24
    I'm sure somebody there probably did.
    41:24
    I'm sure somebody there probably did. But um so and again it was kind of like a similar path and then eventually I evolved in doing console video game design. It was a similar path at Stern, right? Like I'm I'm I'm doing software testing on these games, but I'm I've never was one that was afraid to be like, "Hey, I don't think this is as fun as it could be. Here's what I think might make it more fun. What do you think?" You know, and sometimes that would more often than not it would be wellreceived. Sometimes until people got to know me better, they'll be like, "I'm not interested." Or we would fight, right? Not like physically fight, but we might argue. >> You didn't mean physically fight.
    41:55
    You didn't mean physically fight.
    41:55
    You didn't mean physically fight. [laughter] >> How much fisty cuffs goes down at Stern?
    41:59
    How much fisty cuffs goes down at Stern?
    41:59
    How much fisty cuffs goes down at Stern? >> None. None. And I'm not a strong man. I
    42:02
    None. None. And I'm not a strong man. I
    42:02
    None. None. And I'm not a strong man. I would probably lose all the fisticuffs fights, you know. >> But you emotionally win.
    42:06
    But you emotionally win.
    42:06
    But you emotionally win. >> Yeah. Yeah. So, the people that knew me
    42:09
    Yeah. Yeah. So, the people that knew me
    42:09
    Yeah. Yeah. So, the people that knew me like Lyman, you know, I already I already had that trust there. the people that didn't know me or didn't or knew me and didn't work directly on a project with me, it was a bigger hill to climb sometimes and it was just a matter of like earning people's trust and then I would just come to them with feedback of like I think this could be better or I think this is awesome or like what do you think about this and it just evolved where that happened more and more and then people started asking me for help and then it just my role just naturally evolved into like now I'm not software testing now being asked like, "Hey, I want you to help design rules to these games." You know, >> that's called respect and it's extremely
    42:48
    that's called respect and it's extremely
    42:48
    that's called respect and it's extremely valuable, which means that >> I agree
    42:51
    I agree
    42:51
    I agree >> and and I and I take pride in the fact
    42:53
    and and I and I take pride in the fact
    42:53
    and and I and I take pride in the fact that I earn that with all my peers because like it's up if they want to work with me or not. It's not I'm not forced on anybody. And when somebody like a Dwight Sullivan or Lonnie Rob are like, I want to tag up with that guy or I just want your I want some feedback or will you help design a couple of modes that I take that I take great pride and honor in that that these people I look up to and respect want me to have valuable design input on their projects that they are leaders of. >> Using that as an example like what was
    43:23
    Using that as an example like what was
    43:23
    Using that as an example like what was it like coming into a company like that that has so many legends using Dwight as an example. You know, Dwight Sullivan has written programming for so many amazing games historically, decades and decades of incredible games. I mean, to have somebody like that approach you and be like, "Hey, like I really want your ideas on this." Like, that's got to hit you in the field. >> It does. Like Dwight on our first
    43:44
    It does. Like Dwight on our first
    43:44
    It does. Like Dwight on our first project, we buted heads a lot, right? Just because we didn't really know how to navigate each other, even though we knew each other for, you know, 20some years. We never >> Who would win in a fist fight between
    43:54
    Who would win in a fist fight between
    43:54
    Who would win in a fist fight between you and Dwight? >> Oh, Dwight would for sure. like again
    43:57
    Oh, Dwight would for sure. like again
    43:57
    Oh, Dwight would for sure. like again I'm not strong. >> [laughter]
    43:59
    [laughter]
    43:59
    [laughter] >> Um [snorts] um anyway, we buted heads a bit, you know, it never got it never affected the relationship. Like I we always still liked each other, but um we had to figure out how to navigate like deal, you know, like communicating with each other. And then the first time Dwight came to me and said, "I would like your help. Will you help me design rules to this mode?" That was one of that was like one of those again career highlights of like here's a guy that I used to argue with like three games ago. Now he's like and I have a huge respect for him. He's made some of the most fun pinball machines starting in the 90s. Like Star Trek Next Generation is a is like a gold standard of theme integration and super fun. So when it has a wide body, it's just its layout even though it has so many weirdly unique shots to it for for both when it came out, you know, especially compared to the other super pins like you know like indie for example is like don't no Mark Richie amazing designer it just it feels like just a lot of other pinball machines but Star Trek felt like really just weird and unique with all of the shot paths and the code and stuff like it's just >> so Dwight's always been like gold
    45:10
    so Dwight's always been like gold
    45:10
    so Dwight's always been like gold standard of the immigration and Just super fun stuff, cool choreography, like the Super Jackpot Effect and Getaway, for example, one of the best ever, you know, it's so satisfying. >> So, the fact that this guy who played
    45:21
    So, the fact that this guy who played
    45:22
    So, the fact that this guy who played games that whose games I played, you know, even a few years before I got into this business wants my help and input of like, hey, help me design some modes to this game or I I want your feedback on this rule. Like, tell me what you like if you like this. That was a massive honor. again like you know I'll go to my grave remembering these things like that of like wow I look up to all these people and now like they want me they want me to help design stuff with them. >> Yeah. It's because your ideas are
    45:50
    Yeah. It's because your ideas are
    45:50
    Yeah. It's because your ideas are awesome. I [laughter] mean so Pat the weirdo has a great question and it is also one of my questions. So Pat, I'm going to give you credit, but it was on my list. We have to talk about it. We got to talk about the MXV skill shot. You knew it was coming. You knew it was going to happen. When did the MXV skill shot come about? >> All right, I will preface it that it was
    46:11
    All right, I will preface it that it was
    46:11
    All right, I will preface it that it was never my idea. So, the credit has to go to Keith Ellen on this one. We're working on Iron Maiden. >> I'm not doing rules at all. Keith didn't
    46:19
    I'm not doing rules at all. Keith didn't
    46:20
    I'm not doing rules at all. Keith didn't need my help on anything because he's that good, right? He's got the whole vision. He's very unique and like he designs the game and the rule sets, you know, largely in conjunction together. Um, that's kind of unique in the in the business these days. Um, so I've got an Iron Maiden in my office and I'm playing it because I did a bunch of software testing for him. And then uh I do what became the MXB skill shot in Iron Maiden, which was the first appearance uh of an MXV skill shot. I did what I'm like, "Oh, wow. That should be a skill shot." So I go find Keith and I'm like, "I just did this thing. You should make this a skill shot." And that's as far as my brain went. I just wanted it in the game. I never in a million years would have thought you should name this after me because like I'm >> I didn't assume that you were like hey I
    47:08
    I didn't assume that you were like hey I
    47:08
    I didn't assume that you were like hey I want my name in the game. This is my skill shot. >> No, not at all. I never would have I
    47:13
    No, not at all. I never would have I
    47:13
    No, not at all. I never would have I could have lived to be a thousand and never would have thought you should name this after me. So I I tell him what the skill shot is. He goes, "Oh, that's good." He goes, "Well, why don't we name it after you?" And I thought he was just messing with me and he go I go, "Get out of here." He goes, "No, we'll name it the MXV super skill shot and it'll be and we'll put in the game." He goes, "And I'll give you one in my next game. You can design one in my next game and watch. It will become a thing." Now, I still don't believe. >> Wow. He just like dropped the bomb right
    47:41
    Wow. He just like dropped the bomb right
    47:41
    Wow. He just like dropped the bomb right there. It's going to be a thing. >> Yeah. He goes, "Watch, it will become a
    47:45
    Yeah. He goes, "Watch, it will become a
    47:45
    Yeah. He goes, "Watch, it will become a thing." And I'm thinking, he's still ribbon me, right? So, it wasn't until I come in one day and then and Keith comes in my office, he goes, "Hey, come with me to Rick's office. I want to show you something." And Rick shows me my skill shot. And there on the screen, MXV super skill shot and what all the points and the award was. And I look at Keith, I look at Rick, I look at Keith again. I'm like, you weren't messing with me. He goes, I told [laughter] you. And I'm like, oh my god. >> He's a man of his word, right?
    48:12
    He's a man of his word, right?
    48:12
    He's a man of his word, right? >> And he goes, "When we do my next game,"
    48:14
    And he goes, "When we do my next game,"
    48:14
    And he goes, "When we do my next game," he goes, "When you get a playfield in here, think of one and we'll put it in. It's going to be a thing." And he was spot on. >> So the the skill shot for uh Iron Maiden
    48:24
    So the the skill shot for uh Iron Maiden
    48:24
    So the the skill shot for uh Iron Maiden is already discovered, so we can talk about that, right, Mike? Sure. >> Because I know you get a little lemon
    48:28
    Because I know you get a little lemon
    48:28
    Because I know you get a little lemon salty if people ask you about skill shots that aren't, you know, known, right? >> Well, so here's here's the thing. This
    48:35
    Well, so here's here's the thing. This
    48:35
    Well, so here's here's the thing. This is the only thing that we put um that I put my stamp on it. I'm like, well, if this was a thing I wanted, it was a nod to Mortal Kombat. The moves, the fatalities, the secret, the special moves. We never published them. People had to figure them out. I'm like, we should do that with my skill shots. Like, I want people to discover them because that's gonna be super exciting. They didn't expect it and all of a sudden they were like, "Whoa, that's I just discovered something, right? It's an Easter egg." So that was the only thing besides >> like everybody has everybody has a
    49:06
    like everybody has everybody has a
    49:06
    like everybody has everybody has a price. >> They [clears throat] don't like
    49:09
    They [clears throat] don't like
    49:09
    They [clears throat] don't like >> What is the price?
    49:10
    What is the price?
    49:10
    What is the price? >> I remember a time where
    49:12
    I remember a time where
    49:12
    I remember a time where >> is it is it $50 million? Let's talk
    49:14
    is it is it $50 million? Let's talk
    49:14
    is it is it $50 million? Let's talk fictional. If somebody cornered you in the back alley at knife and gunpoint, it was a gun knife. It was a It was a knife with a gun coming out of it that had another knife coming out of that and they were like, "Tell me what the MXV shot is on some game. >> I won't do it." No.
    49:31
    I won't do it." No.
    49:31
    I won't do it." No. >> Like, just like I'll never break my NDA,
    49:34
    Like, just like I'll never break my NDA,
    49:34
    Like, just like I'll never break my NDA, right? Like, I've been in this business for 32 years. I grew up in a in a company where I thought that they would like they would put me in the Chicago River if I spilled the company secrets or told the secret, let alone get blacklisted from an entire industry. So, there's nothing. You can't trick me. You can't bribe me. Like they still haven't found the my skill shot in X-Men, which is like that set the record for like the longest amount of time. They found that I somebody messaged me the night we released the last John Wick update and somebody had found the thing and I'm going to mail him a coin. Um, but he found it the same day and he didn't publish it because he wanted people to still figure it out, which I thought was really nice. >> Yeah, that's super cool. They still
    50:14
    Yeah, that's super cool. They still
    50:14
    Yeah, that's super cool. They still haven't found the X-Men. And people ask me for clues all the time. And the only clue I give is no shot repeats itself. But I'm really shocked that nobody's discovered it. It's not that hard. There you go, internet. You've heard the words. It's not that hard. The clues you need to find the MXV skill shot in Uncanny X-Men. Um, but I hear you on the NDA thing. Like, you know what's better than telling somebody something? Not telling them. And then when they find out, they message you and they're like, "You son of a bitch." That's way more satisfying. [laughter] >> You know what's even more satisfying
    50:47
    You know what's even more satisfying
    50:47
    You know what's even more satisfying than that, my friend? >> Getting a paycheck every couple weeks
    50:51
    Getting a paycheck every couple weeks
    50:51
    Getting a paycheck every couple weeks and having a job >> and al and having your business your
    50:55
    and al and having your business your
    50:55
    and al and having your business your your company that you work for trust you because you know that's really where your priorities should lie, [laughter] >> right? I mean, I'm on this podcast
    51:03
    right? I mean, I'm on this podcast
    51:03
    right? I mean, I'm on this podcast because upper management and the company trust me to like not go on here and tell you a bunch of stuff or spill the beans or whatever, right? >> I think that they trust me that I'm not
    51:12
    I think that they trust me that I'm not
    51:12
    I think that they trust me that I'm not going to ask questions like that, too. So, >> Oh, no. I I I wouldn't be on here if I
    51:16
    Oh, no. I I I wouldn't be on here if I
    51:16
    Oh, no. I I I wouldn't be on here if I thought that you were that was going to be the case. Like, I know you well enough to know like what this was going to be about, you know. >> Yeah. I was shocked. Stern had me to
    51:24
    Yeah. I was shocked. Stern had me to
    51:24
    Yeah. I was shocked. Stern had me to their, you know, their events. You know, Zach's awesome. I talked to Zach a lot obviously and they've opened the door to have me come, you know, check out the new games, you know, when they have them and I appreciate that. I love being as neutral as I possibly can platform for pinball because I love pinball and I think that, you know, >> I do I do too. I mean, you know, I'll
    51:41
    I do I do too. I mean, you know, I'll
    51:41
    I do I do too. I mean, you know, I'll play everyone's games and I I just judge a game by whether it's fun or not, not by who made it. >> There you go. Um, we've had a bunch of
    51:51
    There you go. Um, we've had a bunch of
    51:51
    There you go. Um, we've had a bunch of questions. Give me Give me a short story while I try to get a speed round ready for you. All right. >> Okay. Well, so to to put closure on that
    51:59
    Okay. Well, so to to put closure on that
    51:59
    Okay. Well, so to to put closure on that last thing, it really like Keith Owen was the one he predicted it and he made there would be no MXV skill shot gimmick in pinball if Keith hadn't come up with the idea of naming it after me and making it a thing. So, all credit goes to him. It's not me trying to put myself over. It was Keith's idea and I just put the little spin of let's keep it a secret so people have to discover it and it gives them something to talk about. Keith is such an incredibly good designer. I'm sorry. I'm I'm a huge fan of all of his games. I don't get the people that are just like on the anti-L1 boat or whatever just because they don't like games that are popular, but those games are good for for a reason. >> My favorite game in pinball now, it used
    52:41
    My favorite game in pinball now, it used
    52:41
    My favorite game in pinball now, it used to be Adam's family for like 20 something years. It's Godzilla. Like my favorite game of all pinball any decade is Godzilla. and I had nothing to do with it other than I think I designed the first 15 or 20 achievements for them for IC. I had nothing to do with the game. So, my favorite game, I'm super proud of my own work, but my favorite game isn't even one of the ones I worked on. It's Keith, one of Keith's games. And honestly, if I had the space and the money, I would have more than two of Keith's and T-Min's games in my basement. I've got a Godzilla, got an Iron Maiden. Um, there'd be a Jaws and a Godzilla right next I'm sorry, a Jaws and a King Kong right next to my Godzilla and Iron Maiden if I had this cash. >> Funny you say that. Nuclear Black says
    53:29
    Funny you say that. Nuclear Black says
    53:29
    Funny you say that. Nuclear Black says he might like Kong more than Godzilla. I you know a lot of the people that I talked to that are like highle players for the most part. They say that Kong is a more fun game and uh I I have both and I I don't know. I just every single one of his games has something different to offer. So I just >> Yeah, he really he's really has the gift
    53:48
    Yeah, he really he's really has the gift
    53:48
    Yeah, he really he's really has the gift in so many ways. Not the least of which he's many games into his career now and there's not any two that feel the same at all. >> Agreed. Um
    54:02
    Agreed. Um
    54:02
    Agreed. Um >> surprisingly people are just gabbing.
    54:04
    surprisingly people are just gabbing.
    54:04
    surprisingly people are just gabbing. It's not so many questions which is great but if you do have questions fire away. Uh Pinhead asks I'm going to modify his question slightly. He says what's the funny I think my bond just updated. Thanks a lot for ruining my internet connection with a thousand updates for stern games. [laughter] >> Yeah.
    54:23
    Yeah.
    54:23
    Yeah. >> Um he's like what's what's a he said
    54:25
    Um he's like what's what's a he said
    54:25
    Um he's like what's what's a he said worst rule. I'm going to rem rewire that. What's a what's a rule that you thought would have worked in a game but just like didn't that actually ended up in a game usually. I don't I can't think of one that actually made it out the door. Um, I I do remember vividly when Lonnie and I were working on that big Kiss update, however many years ago that was now. We did I didn't work on the main game of Kiss, but then Lonnie and I got to go back and finish it. And I like the game before and I absolutely love that game now. Um, we spent all morning in my office writing on my whiteboard planning out a rule to one of the song modes that we were going to rework. And we thought for sure like this is going to be the best rule. It's going to be so awesome. So then he goes and he program it programs it in the game. The next day I come in and he goes, "Hey, update I got I update like update your game. Uh I put that rule in." He goes, "I'm not going to tell you my thoughts on it until you play it." Now when >> that's a loaded question already.
    55:25
    that's a loaded question already.
    55:26
    that's a loaded question already. >> Yeah, it's a loaded question. So I'm
    55:27
    Yeah, it's a loaded question. So I'm
    55:27
    Yeah, it's a loaded question. So I'm like, "Okay." He goes, "I want you to play it. That's all I'm going to say. I'm already in my back of my mind. I know he doesn't like it because like I know him well enough. like, "Sure." >> So,
    55:35
    So,
    55:36
    So, >> I play it and I walk back into his
    55:38
    I play it and I walk back into his
    55:38
    I play it and I walk back into his office and he he sees me. He goes, "What did you think?" I'm like, "I hate it, Lonnie. I I effing hate it." And he goes, "So do I." And he goes, I go, "It seems so good on paper." And this is a quote I steal from him all the time. It's one of his catchphrases. He goes, "The game told us it wasn't any good." And he's right. The game will tell you if something's good. So, we You could have the best idea on paper you put in in practice. might suck. This was a case where was all right back to the drawing board. Eventually, whatever I don't even remember which rule it was, but whatever we settled with, we were way happier with and the game told us, "Yeah, that's the one." >> It's true. They really do.
    56:16
    It's true. They really do.
    56:16
    It's true. They really do. >> They have like a soul, right? You know
    56:18
    They have like a soul, right? You know
    56:18
    They have like a soul, right? You know what I mean? Like when you play a game that's more than just like, >> you know, when a game is special, you
    56:23
    you know, when a game is special, you
    56:23
    you know, when a game is special, you just know, right? Like kind of when you go to a film and it just like everything is like really just special. read a book, whatever album. There's so many things that a piece of art when it has a lot of different components to it that you just realize that it's it's a unique thing. Uh, and it the communication back from the game that something is not working is is so true. Uh, Rex Rex wants to know, "When did you and Lonnie kiss for the first time?" >> Never. [laughter] That still has yet to
    56:48
    Never. [laughter] That still has yet to
    56:48
    Never. [laughter] That still has yet to happen. >> There's a everything. You never know. I
    56:51
    There's a everything. You never know. I
    56:51
    There's a everything. You never know. I guess [laughter] >> it's harder now that we work remote, but
    56:56
    it's harder now that we work remote, but
    56:56
    it's harder now that we work remote, but um I've worked on six games with him now. Like I just think our strengths are very complimentary of each other and we just make a really good tag team for like game design now. And he's not the only person I work with, but I've worked with him on more projects probably than almost anybody at this point in in me doing rule design work. Um he was one that once I earned his trust because he didn't know me before my first day at Stern and uh it was partway through Guardians where like he really like I think that's where the trust was earned and then he started like listening to my feedback more and more and then it just became more and more collaborative by the time we got to Stranger Things. It was like Stranger Things was a threeman design team. It was Lonnie, Brian, and me. Um, and then at some point Brian was working on his next game and Lonnie and I worked on Stranger Things just the two of us for like a whole another year to get the game done, you know. So, the meat and potatoes of that software design was the two of us, >> right? Fantastic. Um, Miss Le wants to
    57:59
    right? Fantastic. Um, Miss Le wants to
    57:59
    right? Fantastic. Um, Miss Le wants to hear about your lava lamps. Can you turn the blue one on? I feel like we need a lava lamp on. >> It would take like more time than you
    58:06
    It would take like more time than you
    58:06
    It would take like more time than you have for me. Like this one. This like I forget the size, but the turn. It's one switch, Mike. Well, yeah, but it won't start flowing for like two and a half hours. >> That's true. That's true. I feel like
    58:18
    That's true. That's true. I feel like
    58:18
    That's true. That's true. I feel like maybe. >> And also summertime and they make a lot
    58:20
    And also summertime and they make a lot
    58:20
    And also summertime and they make a lot of heat, so like I tend not to run them in the summer so much. >> Do the vinyls appreciate the lava lamps?
    58:26
    Do the vinyls appreciate the lava lamps?
    58:26
    Do the vinyls appreciate the lava lamps? I feel like vinyl appreciates a good lava lamp. >> You know what? Like in the winter time
    58:30
    You know what? Like in the winter time
    58:30
    You know what? Like in the winter time because it gets dark, you know, at like noon or something. It's like super depressing. So by the time I'm done working, it's black outside. I'll turn these things on like about an hour before I'm gonna quit for the day, you know, and come upstairs and enjoy my evening. I'll sit here listening to records for hours with the only lights being the lava lamps and then I have a little spotlight that shines on my turntable so I can see what I'm doing. >> Sure. Sure. That's amazing. That's the
    58:55
    Sure. Sure. That's amazing. That's the
    58:55
    Sure. Sure. That's amazing. That's the ambience, right? There's something about setting the mood. >> Very relaxing.
    58:58
    Very relaxing.
    58:58
    Very relaxing. >> Yeah.
    58:58
    Yeah.
    58:58
    Yeah. >> Yeah. It's very relaxing.
    58:59
    Yeah. It's very relaxing.
    59:00
    Yeah. It's very relaxing. >> Um I absolutely love this question.
    59:01
    Um I absolutely love this question.
    59:01
    Um I absolutely love this question. Another another banger from Pinhead. He says, I'm going to I'm going to tell you his question and then I'm going to modify it a little bit. He said, are rules getting too complex at times? And I love this because there's something to like simple things, right, executed well provide such a great level of ret playability. And when something's too complicated, then all of a sudden you start using you start losing players that are, you know, maybe not into pinball yet. And in order for there to be players that are into pinball later, you got to get the early ones in, right? So, how do you how do you balance that? That's always a struggle that we all as designers in pinball have is you have to make yourself appeal to a very broad audience. So you got like the novice that maybe they played this might be their first time playing pinball to just ve you know and then work your way through casuals and like middle of the road players and like >> people that are really terrible at
    59:52
    people that are really terrible at
    59:52
    people that are really terrible at pinball like Enzo. Yeah. And then you get uh and then you get to like the top level like your Keith Owens and your Raymond Davidsons of the world, right? Like who like are like they don't they rarely miss shots. Like they've got targeting computers in their head like the Terminator, right? They can do a blindfolder. So you have to be able to make something approachable for like casuals but also like deep enough and uh challenging enough for like the top level players too. And the best things is how do you satis and the the the constant struggles. How do you satisfy both of those things? And like I like to approach things of like uh like Bond's a good example of like there's a handful of modes, a bunch of them really in Bond of like okay if you just shoot the arrows you'll beat this mode and you'll get some amount of points but there's a more skillful way to do it for the advanced players and you can really blow up the game score if you approach it this other way which has got more risk and reward attached to it. But it's not uh a gating factor of you progressing in the game because you could just do the the vanilla part of the rule is just shoot the you know make the shots in whatever however they're lit it just but there's another way of like building >> Q modes come to mind for that. You know
    61:10
    Q modes come to mind for that. You know
    61:10
    Q modes come to mind for that. You know you can build up a lot of jackpots. Each of those modes that became a multiball have a risk and reward where you could build up a big value for the multiball part of it in the single ball thing if you want to take that risk of not getting to the multiball. Right. And risk and reward is like that was a a pinball uh mechanic that very much was influenced by Lyman for me. um he was like he really popularized and moved that whole thing forward in modern pinball. >> But riskreward I think is what keeps a
    61:45
    But riskreward I think is what keeps a
    61:45
    But riskreward I think is what keeps a lot of people coming back because you always have the ch it's always you that is responsible for either pushing it too far you know the per the person that's playing when it's a riskreward scenario. >> Absolutely. That's the beauty of the
    61:57
    Absolutely. That's the beauty of the
    61:57
    Absolutely. That's the beauty of the whole rule. Like it's the it's it's not gambling per se, but it is it's like press your luck. That old that old uh game show. How far do you want to push it? And you could bust and get nothing >> or you could get very little or drain.
    62:10
    or you could get very little or drain.
    62:10
    or you could get very little or drain. So it's like how far do you want to push it? You know, AC/DC was a great example of risk and reward. The main rule set was all about building that song jackpot. But if you try if you got too greedy and you drain, you're back at, you know, at the base level on your next ball, >> right?
    62:26
    right?
    62:26
    right? Does that mean I feel like those games Bond is specifically there chat's grilling me for getting to six out of seven Bond girls repeatedly and never getting the seventh girl which is not true. I've done it. Thank you very much chat. Jesus. Uh but yeah >> it's a tough thing but the reward is
    62:42
    it's a tough thing but the reward is
    62:42
    it's a tough thing but the reward is amazing because you get 7x multiplier and 30 ball. Yeah, it's good stuff. [laughter] But then knowing when to cash it in, but that's, you know, that's so um you know, I talked about Bond uh compared to like an L1 game before. And I think that, you know, Bond has less of like a narrative scenario going with it when it's more of like a score manipulation game, right? Like you want to set up stack specific things in order to like really blow the game up. Whereas like with some of the Lwin games, like you can just kind of putts through different avenues of getting to certain directions. like um there's like a best of you really want to try to get the 7x and I I think there's a place for both of those types of gains but man the endorphin rush man the oh my god the pinball feels you get when you set up like a 7x and trigger it at the right time with it whether it be a Q mode or a multiball and get billions of points out of it. It's just like, >> and the thing that was really important
    63:35
    and the thing that was really important
    63:35
    and the thing that was really important to me or to both of us really in Bond was the lesson I learned from Batman was like Batman had like one way that everybody does to blow that game up. It's like you do the freeze, you do the bookworm, now stack everything. And if you blow that, there was no other way to do that same amount of blowing up the game. And I want I didn't want and this is that I'm just using the most recent example that stuck in my head that really influenced of like I want multiple places that we could blow the score up. So if a player blows it in this one, they don't restart the game. You still have the opportunities like here, here, there, and there, you know. >> So it was really important that like
    64:15
    So it was really important that like
    64:15
    So it was really important that like >> I never want somebody to walk away from
    64:16
    I never want somebody to walk away from
    64:16
    I never want somebody to walk away from a game. I don't want to ever w want to feel like I want to walk away from game because oh, I didn't do the thing. I want there to be multiple the things, you know, plural. So that way, >> hey, I blew this one, but I still got
    64:28
    hey, I blew this one, but I still got
    64:28
    hey, I blew this one, but I still got these other opportunities. Like, I'm still gonna I'm still going to tough it out and I I could still persevere and overcome my up this one >> perfectly encapsulated what modern
    64:37
    perfectly encapsulated what modern
    64:37
    perfectly encapsulated what modern pinball is versus like more of like the 90s period. You know, the 90s games had a thing, whereas now modern games have the things. Um, so Pat or I'm sorry, Chad's chat's mentioning a number of things about how hard it is to hit the 7x shot. And I, this is kind of wrapping into my next question. When you're designing kind of a mechanic that you want to improve a game or to add a fun idea, how do you kind of take into account like shot difficulty as a as a factor into the shot or into the rule, right? Like knowing that a certain shot is difficult to hit, so maybe that should be the final shot for this combo or something like that. >> Oh, yeah. I think I could speak for most
    65:15
    Oh, yeah. I think I could speak for most
    65:15
    Oh, yeah. I think I could speak for most of us, not all. I mean, we we sit there and play our own games constantly as we're developing this stuff. So, you always take into account like, well, what are the shots going to be and what are the hardest and the easiest shots and you try to balance out the, you know, the difficulty of it of any given rules based on the difficulty of making the physical shots on a playfield. For sure. Like on Bond, if we had a mode and all you had to all you all that was lit would be those side shots, those are really hard even for skilled players to do consistently like it probably wouldn't be a lot of fun. It'd be more frustrating than anything. So you got to balance it out with >> like you know for like on the that Bond
    65:57
    like you know for like on the that Bond
    65:57
    like you know for like on the that Bond James Bond mini wizard mode the final shots one of the side shots to collect the super because it's like it should be the hardest thing to do on there because it's the biggest single payoff for a points in that mode. It's the one that completes it. >> Um Enzo has a a music vinyl question for
    66:15
    Um Enzo has a a music vinyl question for
    66:15
    Um Enzo has a a music vinyl question for you. He's like as a vinyl enthusiast you understand that listening to music is part of an experience right? It's not just background sound. So, but when you're designing a music themed pinball machine, how do you avoid just making it a jukebox?
    66:32
    That's tough because for my input on
    66:32
    That's tough because for my input on like any rule design on a music pin has been is limited to Kiss and Aerosmith and Aerosmith like the meat and potatoes of that was done before I got there. And then Lonnie, that was another one that Lonnie and I went back and finished and changed, you know, a couple years later. Are there genres of games that you think uh allow for you to kind of like explore more rules ideas than others? Like do you feel more limited by music pins or more freed by IPs that aren't like movies or something like that? >> It's it's that's a tough question to
    67:05
    It's it's that's a tough question to
    67:05
    It's it's that's a tough question to answer, but um I love music pins first and foremost because music was my first love, right? So, um, but I I'd say like a game like Led Zeppelin, if I was doing rule design on it, I think would have been more challenging to me than Foo Fighters, which they did because when we were they were going to do Foo Fighters. I'm like, what's the toy? And what do you how do you make a Foo Fighters game? They're like popular rock band, but they really don't. They weren't like Iron Maiden where they had all this cool like iconic images and a character and a mascot and this whole lore, right? Like that they created for themselves. Foo Fighters were just like, "Hey, we're five dudes that stand up here and play good rock songs, you know? They were kind of like so I'm like and but then they had that whole that team did an amazing job of like the whole angle of like it's like a Saturday morning cartoon." I thought it was brilliant. I'm like, "Wow, those guys really found a way to incorporate Foo Fighters into a a story and something fun that they can now design stuff around." So, I thought that was a really interesting take on it. >> Yeah, 100%. Instead of just like a band
    68:10
    Yeah, 100%. Instead of just like a band
    68:10
    Yeah, 100%. Instead of just like a band performing at, you know, a stadium or whatever. >> I like what Keith did on Iron Maiden
    68:16
    I like what Keith did on Iron Maiden
    68:16
    I like what Keith did on Iron Maiden where the modes were were based off of song lyrics. Like the content of those songs drove what the and it turned out amazing. Like I have an Iron Man in my basement. absolutely love that game. >> But it can be limiting depending on what
    68:30
    But it can be limiting depending on what
    68:30
    But it can be limiting depending on what you have to work with, I would say. You know, >> do you have a an IP or a music pin?
    68:35
    do you have a an IP or a music pin?
    68:35
    do you have a an IP or a music pin? We'll go with one of each, right? That you have that you don't think's ever going to get made into a pinball machine. It would just be like a personal >> Well, yeah. Normally, I would tell you I
    68:43
    Well, yeah. Normally, I would tell you I
    68:43
    Well, yeah. Normally, I would tell you I would never tell you my dream theme because I don't want somebody to go get it. This one like I can say I would make a Skinny Puppy music pin. >> Well, you and I we talked about Skinny
    68:52
    Well, you and I we talked about Skinny
    68:52
    Well, you and I we talked about Skinny Puppy. Yeah, we talked about this when I saw you last, >> but we'd sell like 10 of them. Like I'd
    68:56
    but we'd sell like 10 of them. Like I'd
    68:56
    but we'd sell like 10 of them. Like I'd buy one, Gavin Miller would buy one, Rachel Bess would buy one, and there'd be a few like hardcore Skinny Puppy fans with deep enough pockets that they'd be like I'd buy they'd buy a Skinny Puppy pinball just to have in their collection. >> And I could I could come up with amazing
    69:09
    And I could I could come up with amazing
    69:09
    And I could I could come up with amazing toys based on their stage shows of in the past that would be awesome for a pinball game, but we would sell almost none of them because they just don't have the most people when I say that's my favorite band, they're like, "Who?" Like they don't they don't you know they never had >> they would have like neon colored kaijus
    69:26
    they would have like neon colored kaijus
    69:26
    they would have like neon colored kaijus though because you know Kevin collects these uh like >> Oh yeah he makes that action figure.
    69:31
    Oh yeah he makes that action figure.
    69:31
    Oh yeah he makes that action figure. >> Yeah
    69:33
    Yeah
    69:33
    Yeah snow says that's an instant buy for him. So guess what there's 11 people that would buy it now. >> 11.
    69:38
    11.
    69:38
    11. >> Yeah I get one too. You know why not?
    69:40
    Yeah I get one too. You know why not?
    69:40
    Yeah I get one too. You know why not? We'll put it at 12. [laughter] Yeah, I don't think that that the company would get the the return on their investment it would cost to produce such a thing for only 12 machines, unfortunately. >> All right, then here we'll do a
    69:53
    All right, then here we'll do a
    69:53
    All right, then here we'll do a follow-up question. What playfield layout do you think would make for a good skinny puppy game? >> You have to you have to No, no, you have
    70:03
    You have to you have to No, no, you have
    70:03
    You have to you have to No, no, you have to base it around the toy. So, it have to be unique shots. So, like I can't really answer that. And I don't have the skills to draw a playfield. I can't even draw a stick figure. You know, it's like draw you a >> I'd be willing to bet if we with paper
    70:17
    I'd be willing to bet if we with paper
    70:17
    I'd be willing to bet if we with paper and pen that you could draw a stick figure. >> That's about the extent. I can't even
    70:21
    That's about the extent. I can't even
    70:21
    That's about the extent. I can't even draw my signature very well, which is why my signature [laughter] is printed, not like actual like >> you should get a stamp or just stickers
    70:28
    you should get a stamp or just stickers
    70:28
    you should get a stamp or just stickers that have your name on it and then you can use that for your signature instead. >> It would save me a lot of time. like,
    70:34
    It would save me a lot of time. like,
    70:34
    It would save me a lot of time. like, >> "Yeah, just be like, "Yeah, [laughter]
    70:38
    "Yeah, just be like, "Yeah, [laughter]
    70:38
    "Yeah, just be like, "Yeah, [laughter] >> I'm surprised George hasn't done that
    70:39
    I'm surprised George hasn't done that
    70:39
    I'm surprised George hasn't done that because George takes an incredible amount of time to make that beautiful signature of his." >> It's, you know, it's funny. I don't know
    70:45
    It's, you know, it's funny. I don't know
    70:45
    It's, you know, it's funny. I don't know if that's a generational thing, but I feel like, you know, there's certain either individuals or generations that their signature is like an artistic thing. It's just like beautiful, you know, >> his work of art, but he's got such an
    70:56
    his work of art, but he's got such an
    70:56
    his work of art, but he's got such an amazing artistic creative brain that it totally fits with that, you know? Like he constantly amazes me with all the stuff that he knows so much about. Like we'll be in like team meetings and he'll just like start talking about stuff. I'm like I could listen to this all day. Like he's just such a wealth of knowledge about so many parts of the business and beyond. >> It's weird. It's unfortunate. And I feel
    71:19
    It's weird. It's unfortunate. And I feel
    71:19
    It's weird. It's unfortunate. And I feel like we only see, you know, I I mean, I've talked to George like once or twice at the media events and, you know, there's, you know, you only get to see him when he's talking at these like uh, you know, welcome to welcome to Stern Pinball when he's doing the promotional videos and stuff and then every once in a while when he does a podcast, but uh, you know, I'm curious. I bet a lot of people would be more curious what the other side of George Gomez is like. I know. I would be curious. >> It's fascinating. I mean, he's had an
    71:41
    It's fascinating. I mean, he's had an
    71:41
    It's fascinating. I mean, he's had an amazing career doing many different things that kind of all tied into all these things, but just the wealth of knowledge of like get him talking about sculpts or how to create this thing. Like the mechanical part of it, like he's got experience and great knowledge of all these different part facets of what we do, like so much more than anybody I know. >> Sure.
    72:03
    Sure.
    72:03
    Sure. >> It's just like because he's done so many
    72:05
    It's just like because he's done so many
    72:05
    It's just like because he's done so many things. It's really amazing. I I I heard what was it was like not a rumor, but he was saying that Fast Break was like his least favorite game. Is there is there do you know anything about that or >> I've never I've never asked him. Um
    72:17
    I've never I've never asked him. Um
    72:17
    I've never I've never asked him. Um yeah, I I really don't know. >> Curious
    72:23
    Curious
    72:23
    Curious for another time. Maybe when Gomez comes on the podcast, I'll be like, "Gomez, is fast break your least favorite game?" And he's going to be like, "Fuck you, Jeff." And hang up. [laughter]
    72:37
    Um, well, Mike, again, I want to thank you so much. We're we're over an hour and a half or at least almost, and usually we try to keep it at about an hour. Uh, I do want to open it up again to chat. Thank you so much, everybody, for coming. If you have questions, now's the time. We do a little wrap up and kind of shoot the [ __ ] a little bit as we're winding down. So, if you have any questions for Mike, now's the time to fire away. Um, what's your favorite Gomez game and why is it Lord of the Rings? That's my favorite Gomez games. Dustin, >> uh, that's true.
    73:05
    uh, that's true.
    73:05
    uh, that's true. >> Our chat's asking a little bit about the
    73:07
    Our chat's asking a little bit about the
    73:07
    Our chat's asking a little bit about the games that are in your basement. I'm sorry to to to step on you there. We got that delay, but you said you had Iron Maiden. What other games do you have in your basement? >> I'll try to walk you through my basement
    73:17
    I'll try to walk you through my basement
    73:17
    I'll try to walk you through my basement from memory. Right. I've got Bobby or Power Play. Uh, there's a Star Wars Force of the Empire in there right now. Uh, Kissle Ellie, Stern, Kissle Ellie. Um, I have Stranger Things, Batman 66, Godzilla, Iron Maiden, Did I say Tron Legacy? I got a >> Tron. Great game.
    73:39
    Tron. Great game.
    73:39
    Tron. Great game. >> I have Mars God of War, Medusa,
    73:44
    I have Mars God of War, Medusa,
    73:44
    I have Mars God of War, Medusa, uh, Gotautle the Games. It's a 1984 solid state, early solid state. That was my dad's. He gave it to me a couple years before he died. Um, I love that game, by the way. It's awesome. Uh, I have Williams Grand Prix, the EM. I have a Funhouse, which is about to leave. It's a prototype one. >> Spinners on that Grand Prix game are so
    74:02
    Spinners on that Grand Prix game are so
    74:02
    Spinners on that Grand Prix game are so much fun. >> Oh, it's my favorite EM.
    74:05
    Oh, it's my favorite EM.
    74:05
    Oh, it's my favorite EM. >> Yeah.
    74:05
    Yeah.
    74:05
    Yeah. >> Um, uh, so Funhouse, Adam's Family, Bram
    74:10
    Um, uh, so Funhouse, Adam's Family, Bram
    74:10
    Um, uh, so Funhouse, Adam's Family, Bram Stoker's Dracula, >> and
    74:15
    and
    74:15
    and easily. >> Oh, I love it. That Adam's Family and
    74:18
    Oh, I love it. That Adam's Family and
    74:18
    Oh, I love it. That Adam's Family and the Dracula will never leave. At one point, my basement was like 24. all the A titles of the Williams WPC, WPC95. >> I sold my Dracula and I regret it daily.
    74:29
    I sold my Dracula and I regret it daily.
    74:29
    I sold my Dracula and I regret it daily. I had both the Stern Dracula and I had BSD and I I let it go and >> yeah, those two though, Adams and
    74:37
    yeah, those two though, Adams and
    74:37
    yeah, those two though, Adams and Dracula will never ever leave. Like there's they're as as as the kids say, they're bolted to the floor. >> Sure.
    74:43
    Sure.
    74:43
    Sure. >> Which anybody that says that and I've
    74:45
    Which anybody that says that and I've
    74:45
    Which anybody that says that and I've been guilty of that as well. Clearly, these bolts be weak because I have said games have been bolted and then, you know, they've sold the next month because you never know what's coming out and pinball takes a lot of space. I don't know if you know that. They're big games, big things. >> Oh, yeah. And I have, you know, a few
    75:00
    Oh, yeah. And I have, you know, a few
    75:00
    Oh, yeah. And I have, you know, a few development cabinets with, you know, a variety of play fields for games I've worked on over the years at Stern that I could switch in and out of there as needed for either we're working on it or I just >> fun. But honestly, I don't go down there
    75:13
    fun. But honestly, I don't go down there
    75:13
    fun. But honestly, I don't go down there and play them much outside of my work because like I like to have a work life balance. I don't want to burn out like I did on video games. So when I'm done with my day of pinball, I typically don't go play more pinball. >> Nice to sprinkle it in for special
    75:26
    Nice to sprinkle it in for special
    75:26
    Nice to sprinkle it in for special moments, right? When you have a game, >> my friends come over and want to play
    75:29
    my friends come over and want to play
    75:29
    my friends come over and want to play it. I'll do it anytime, but by myself, like I come upstairs, I'm done until tomorrow, you know. So, it sounds like you have a you have a decent collection of classics, but can I can I ask you if you were to add any of these particular games to your collection as classics, uh, which one of these three games would you keep? >> Okay.
    75:48
    Okay.
    75:48
    Okay. >> Raven.
    75:52
    No.
    75:52
    No. >> Raven.
    75:58
    Or uh,
    75:58
    Or uh, it's Raven. >> I I've played Raven, but it's been
    76:03
    I I've played Raven, but it's been
    76:03
    I I've played Raven, but it's been years. I know that the back glass was pretty terrible, but um I Isn't that like It's got like the photo on it of the lady. >> That's horrible. It's horrible. It's
    76:12
    That's horrible. It's horrible. It's
    76:12
    That's horrible. It's horrible. It's this woman like holding the like Commando M16 or something. >> Yeah, it's been enough years that I
    76:19
    Yeah, it's been enough years that I
    76:19
    Yeah, it's been enough years that I don't remember the gameplay to be able to say if I liked it or not. I'd have to revisit it. >> It's uh it's weak level John Trudeau is
    76:26
    It's uh it's weak level John Trudeau is
    76:26
    It's uh it's weak level John Trudeau is what it is. [laughter] Um well, you got to pick one though. Which of the three? Well, none of I just I'd rather reserve that space for like give me an eightball and an eightball deluxe. I would love to have those two side by side in my basement. >> Okay. But but there's another a magic
    76:41
    Okay. But but there's another a magic
    76:41
    Okay. But but there's another a magic space just freed up because of this. And it's and it's available for one of those three ravens. Which one is it? >> Whichever one [laughter] is not that
    76:50
    Whichever one [laughter] is not that
    76:50
    Whichever one [laughter] is not that game. >> They're all that game. You got to pick
    76:53
    They're all that game. You got to pick
    76:53
    They're all that game. You got to pick one. [laughter] >> Are you trying to tell me this is like
    76:56
    Are you trying to tell me this is like
    76:56
    Are you trying to tell me this is like you're a huge Raven fan? >> No, I'm not. It's just an ongoing gag.
    77:00
    No, I'm not. It's just an ongoing gag.
    77:00
    No, I'm not. It's just an ongoing gag. But it's funny. So, of the three, like guests generally pick a specific one. So, I'm curious which one you would pick. It's almost like a psychological experiment. >> Is there a Raven that was based off of
    77:11
    Is there a Raven that was based off of
    77:11
    Is there a Raven that was based off of the professional wrestler of the same name or is this all the Gotautle Raven? >> They're all the Gotautlees.
    77:16
    They're all the Gotautlees.
    77:16
    They're all the Gotautlees. >> Yeah.
    77:17
    Yeah.
    77:17
    Yeah. >> Yeah. I have to I have to pass.
    77:19
    Yeah. I have to I have to pass.
    77:19
    Yeah. I have to I have to pass. >> You decline. You decline the Raven.
    77:21
    You decline. You decline the Raven.
    77:21
    You decline. You decline the Raven. Chat's not going to like this. Oh, man. Mike. My lord. No one's ever passed. >> Okay. Okay. Someone's paying you to have
    77:31
    Okay. Okay. Someone's paying you to have
    77:31
    Okay. Okay. Someone's paying you to have a raven. >> All right, I'll take number C.
    77:34
    All right, I'll take number C.
    77:34
    All right, I'll take number C. >> The third one. Okay, see there, that's
    77:36
    The third one. Okay, see there, that's
    77:36
    The third one. Okay, see there, that's different. Everyone usually picks the second one. >> Maybe the third one's the good one.
    77:45
    Maybe that one's got like a different
    77:45
    Maybe that one's got like a different back glass. >> You Okay, so you know that's something
    77:48
    You Okay, so you know that's something
    77:48
    You Okay, so you know that's something that's really funny. Raven has like five or six alternate back glasses, which is, you know, I mean, I know there's tons of people that make alternate back glasses, but it probably has one of the most abundant alternate back glasses I've seen. They have one that's similar to like the B7 bomber like nose art, right? There's there's one that's uh like based off of uh the John C. Riley uh like character, Ram, bro. I think there's a Predator remake one. Like there's there's a there's a dirty hole of Raven. I said it. Yeah, >> it's just a when you go down that hole,
    78:20
    it's just a when you go down that hole,
    78:20
    it's just a when you go down that hole, it's it's gross. >> I can't even remember the last time I
    78:24
    I can't even remember the last time I
    78:24
    I can't even remember the last time I saw that machine anywhere that I could play it. >> Uh it was at Expo. They had the Predator
    78:28
    Uh it was at Expo. They had the Predator
    78:28
    Uh it was at Expo. They had the Predator one last year and by the time I got to it, it was already not working, which is it was sad. >> I missed Expo last year because I was at
    78:37
    I missed Expo last year because I was at
    78:37
    I missed Expo last year because I was at the Portland show that was running the same weekend. >> Got to be a crazy person to run a
    78:41
    Got to be a crazy person to run a
    78:41
    Got to be a crazy person to run a Portland show at the same time as Expo in Chicago, right? >> Thankfully. Thankfully this year they're
    78:46
    Thankfully. Thankfully this year they're
    78:46
    Thankfully. Thankfully this year they're like backtoback weekends. So happy at both of them. >> Only Rob Burke would appreciate that.
    78:51
    Only Rob Burke would appreciate that.
    78:51
    Only Rob Burke would appreciate that. [laughter] >> It's that Portland show has over
    78:54
    It's that Portland show has over
    78:54
    It's that Portland show has over overlapped with Expo three times now. >> Really?
    78:57
    Really?
    78:57
    Really? >> I've missed. Yeah. The only time since I
    78:59
    I've missed. Yeah. The only time since I
    78:59
    I've missed. Yeah. The only time since I started going to Expo, the only three I missed were because I was doing the Portland show. >> Uh are you required to go to shows or is
    79:06
    Uh are you required to go to shows or is
    79:06
    Uh are you required to go to shows or is this just something you enjoy doing? >> It's part of my It's part of my job. So
    79:10
    It's part of my It's part of my job. So
    79:10
    It's part of my It's part of my job. So yeah, that's part of my It's part of the gig. >> I mean, they're fun. I feel like I've
    79:15
    I mean, they're fun. I feel like I've
    79:15
    I mean, they're fun. I feel like I've gone to >> Yeah. I enjoy it's a lot of long days,
    79:19
    Yeah. I enjoy it's a lot of long days,
    79:19
    Yeah. I enjoy it's a lot of long days, but I really enjoy it and I love being out there talking to all the people and getting feedback from them. And >> I feel like I see you shipping the night
    79:26
    I feel like I see you shipping the night
    79:26
    I feel like I see you shipping the night style at them more than anything. I'll see you walking by and I just, you know, we give the mutual wave. [laughter] >> Now we've done the podcast, so we'll
    79:34
    Now we've done the podcast, so we'll
    79:34
    Now we've done the podcast, so we'll have to touch tips now. >> Yeah, they're they're super fun, but
    79:38
    Yeah, they're they're super fun, but
    79:38
    Yeah, they're they're super fun, but they're but they're long long days. It's exhausting. >> Uh, all right. Well, I think chat's
    79:44
    Uh, all right. Well, I think chat's
    79:44
    Uh, all right. Well, I think chat's pretty wild wound down. So, uh, yeah. [ __ ] man. Thank you so much for sharing your development, your stories, how you got here. Uh, is there anything? Usually I ask if people have something they want to plug, but you know, this isn't really a plug scenario, but, uh, you got cool shows coming up. >> Well, I would say in a professional
    80:03
    Well, I would say in a professional
    80:04
    Well, I would say in a professional level, you know, obviously Stern Pinball because that's, you know, that's what brought me to the dance here today. Um, we just released a bunch of we released a huge John Wick update last week. Um, that we're both we're all really proud of. Um, I really like that game a lot now. So, that that would be my professional plug. And then like my personal one would be the my my website, the Punk Vault. So, just go to punkfinal.com. That's where you can see all my concert photography. >> And I highly recommend it out to check
    80:31
    And I highly recommend it out to check
    80:31
    And I highly recommend it out to check it out. Please go follow him on Instagram, too, if you just are a fan of photography. If you're a fan of just vinyl cover art and vinyl records sitting on stuff, it's uh it's fun to do. Uh Mano is here. What's up? Shout out to Mystery Pinball Theater. Uh this is a pretty good question as we're like heading out. He wants to know what your top five punk bands are all time. >> Um
    80:50
    Um
    80:50
    Um my I could give you my top five punk albums. Well, at least my top four, which would answer most of that question. >> Sure.
    80:57
    Sure.
    80:57
    Sure. >> Uh so it' be Zen Arcade. Um, it would be
    81:03
    Uh so it' be Zen Arcade. Um, it would be
    81:03
    Uh so it' be Zen Arcade. Um, it would be the germs GI album, uh, social distortion, mommy, little monster, the descendants, Milo goes to college, and then I'm hardressed to figure out what number five is. But, um, maybe Sex Pistols, Never Mind the Bollocks, because that was one of the two records that changed the course of my life. >> Pretty classic.
    81:21
    Pretty classic.
    81:21
    Pretty classic. But um yeah, you know, Fusco, Germs, Social Distortion, Descendants, you know, huge bands to me, like huge, you know, but there's so many like Black Flag was hugely influential on me, Adolescence, Circ, >> you name it.
    81:36
    you name it.
    81:36
    you name it. >> Um something that I started doing after
    81:38
    Um something that I started doing after
    81:38
    Um something that I started doing after talking to Kate uh was, is there somebody that you think deserves mention or a location that might deserve mention in the pinball ecosystem that people don't know yet? kind of like more of an underdog shout out for someone who is watching this and may be curious about, you know, >> um I'll give a shout out to um Mike and
    81:58
    um I'll give a shout out to um Mike and
    81:58
    um I'll give a shout out to um Mike and Stephanie who are doing the punk rock pinball thing. I really like what they're doing where they're just such passionately huge fans and lovers of just the game of pinball, all pinball like the and the pinball like community and scene much they're doing. It's such a perfect name because like they're trying to grow pinball and just turn more people on to something that they just love. Like no agenda other than like let's just make this fun for everybody and people should people should be exposed to like this great art form that brings so much joy to people that get into it. Um and I like their whole like trying to make it more casual approach of like tracking like if you're playing a tournament you get the punk rock points like it's like their version of the whopper points. Like they're not trying to compete with the IFA. They're trying to be a more inclusive, less intimidating culture of like, hey, see how you measure up against your friends or people that hang out in the in your pinball circle without the whole like intimidation factor of like these top level players with this whole >> and getting into a lot of the pinball
    83:03
    and getting into a lot of the pinball
    83:03
    and getting into a lot of the pinball tournament scene is very intimidating for people that just want to go. >> It is. It is. Um, and they wanted to
    83:08
    It is. It is. Um, and they wanted to
    83:08
    It is. It is. Um, and they wanted to just make a more casual inclusive approach for everybody just to have like a fun group of like, hey, we're all like-minded stuff, people that like to play games. Let's make a community for it. And I think it's awesome. >> Okay. Right on. Punk Crock Pinball.
    83:21
    Okay. Right on. Punk Crock Pinball.
    83:21
    Okay. Right on. Punk Crock Pinball. Check it out. They they're sweethearts and extremely they've been super kind every time I've seen them and that's been at the last couple of stern things. So, yeah. Fantastic. >> I I absolutely adore those two. I love
    83:32
    I I absolutely adore those two. I love
    83:32
    I I absolutely adore those two. I love them. They're such wonderful, kind souls, you know, and you know, we all have the same punk rock thing in common. Mike's been in the Smoky Pops forever, you know, as and uh that's part of the Chicago music scene. They were a staple since, you know, early 90s. Um and still going at it. So, we had we those those two and me have, you know, two things that seems in common, the music scene and pinball now, you know. >> Fantastic. All right. Amazing. Thank you
    84:00
    Fantastic. All right. Amazing. Thank you
    84:00
    Fantastic. All right. Amazing. Thank you everybody. Uh, please stick around though because we're going to do a raid as we do. If you are a streamer, it is your obligation to make sure that you raid people. It keeps the circle of life going on here. And pinball is already such a niche thing. And even more so on Twitch, man. Twitch just doesn't get it. I feel like they'll push Fortnite all day, but god forbid someone's flipping a pinball machine. Um, yes, Arma, I will do better about giving a few days heads up. Uh, these are scheduled far in advance, and I'm just a lazy [ __ ] is really what it comes down to. I just like spontaneously doing it. Um, so without further ado, all praise the great pyramid. Mike, you got to do the thing. You gota praise the pyramid. >> It's like the diamond cutter thing from
    84:35
    It's like the diamond cutter thing from
    84:35
    It's like the diamond cutter thing from DDP the wrestler. He did this. So that's >> there you go. You could you can throw it
    84:38
    there you go. You could you can throw it
    84:38
    there you go. You could you can throw it up however you want as long as it makes a triangle. You know, I've seen people do like it's the it doesn't it could be equilateral, you know, it could be like a two 90° like pyramids don't care as long as it's long as it's in there. Um, stick around Mike just so I can say thank you and stuff afterwards. It takes me a few minutes or a minute or so to transfer everything out. And uh yeah, everybody say goodbye to Mike. Thank you for watching. >> Hi everybody. Thanks for listening and
    85:01
    Hi everybody. Thanks for listening and
    85:01
    Hi everybody. Thanks for listening and watching. >> Got to find the BRB button now.
    85:06
    Got to find the BRB button now.
    85:06
    Got to find the BRB button now. [music] Does your life lack purpose? Have you wondered is there anything more? Join the cult of pinball.
    85:31
    The great pyramid accepts all into the cult of the great order. I [music] am Dr. Cornelius.