you're listening to the head-to-head people podcast find us on facebook email us at head Welcome everybody to the Head to Head Pinball Podcast. This is episode 108 and my name is Martin and with me, Joe. How you been, Joe? All right. It's been a... I just got off of that amazing weekend at the pins, which has left me realizing that the rest of my week sucks. And I just... The rest of my life is unfulfilled. Well, yeah, that too. I just want to go back. It was such an amazing weekend, and there's two of the best people in pinball that I've ever met. Spending four days with them was just amazing. I know, and it was great to get them on the podcast, so thanks, pins, for coming on. We got a lot of good feedback on that, so always a pleasure. Always fun times, and always, always, without fail, a really long edit. Yeah, yeah. And, of course, I was looking forward to actually getting some time on Waka to decide if I liked it. But of course it had issues and broke. So I didn't even get to spend as much time on it as I wanted. We heard it had some board issues. So by the time you had just finished playing Wonka, did the podcast, went back, and there were board issues. It was great. Yeah. So that was the end of that. Pretty much once that podcast ended, there was no more Wonka. And then we spent the next night because he was at work and she went to bed. So we played from 9 to 1 in the morning just playing the other games. that weren't Wonka. Halfway through, I played one game of Wonka, and I was like, oh, maybe it'll work. Played one game, it was fine. After that, like, damn it. Like, I don't want to play. Well, speaking of Wonka, they've now arrived in Australia, and you'd imagine they would all be perfect. Oh, absolutely. I'm sure none of the issues that everyone's talking about happened in Australia, which is literally the future this time, because you guys got the first games that were made. So they've been sitting and just getting nice and ready to be open to see all their totally not problems. So, yeah, I think that the summary of what we're trying to say is that we've got the same issues with the playfields that everybody's got. But as you said, it's really interesting because they've probably been sitting on a boat for, I think, six weeks, maybe seven weeks. I'm just trying to remember how long it took. I remember when I ordered my Hobbit and I got the ship number that they were on and every single morning I'd wake up and I'd see how far the ship had come. And I think it was probably about seven or eight weeks on the water until it got here. Jeez. You know? That's a long time. It is a long time. And so we've got early production games that have been sitting on the water for probably a couple of months and they've arrived and we've got the same challenges. And I think that the important thing is the people out there who have issues with their Wonka now and that they just got their Wonkas. Think of it this way, that your machine probably is only a couple of weeks old or you just got it and probably it was made a little bit before you ended up getting it. So the issues that these machines have that we're about to talk about in Australia are kind of like what yours are going to be in six weeks or five weeks because they've been sitting in the same condition. So it's kind of like a view, again, into the future about how these games probably with the same dimpling or rippling around the posts that now, if they sit that way, not even being played for like a couple months, what happens? Well, it's not like they get worse, but it's the same sort of things. Like when we were talking to Dr. Pin last week and he was saying, oh, I've noticed a little bit. It's the same sort of thing. We're noticing, you know, some rippling around some of the posts and they become, you know, the friction points that when they get worse, that's where they start chipping. So it's the same thing. We still haven't heard yet what the remedy is or what acknowledgement has been had. And the point I was making last week, it's a complicated process when it comes to liability and the remedy. So it will come, but you're going to have a lot of people very annoyed. Yeah. Because I think that one of the ones he unboxed that had chipping out of the box already ran those posts. So, I mean, I don't know. And did you see the pictures of the balls from that game? Yes. Like, what the fuck is that? Like, out of all the things, that blew my mind, that those balls were in such terrible condition. Like, on a brand new 10K machine, and the balls are already, like, destroyed? Yep. Like, what? That just blew my mind. I'm like, you can't even get nice balls in these things? Like, ugh, unreal. Yeah. And so I don't know. This is, I guess, part of the angst of what people have been having is, you know, what sort of quality control do you have to let these things out for delivery with some visible things that you can actually see and, you know, some fine little cracks? Sure, maybe you've sent out a couple of trucks and didn't notice them all. And now you're recovering from it. But balls, you can see a pack of balls and whether they're shit or not. They're really bad. Yeah. And what I wonder is that, like, so say that Ryan just, it wasn't someone who knew what they were doing, right? They take the balls out, they chuck them in the game. What would those balls do to that play field? Yeah, make it worse, right? Like, I would imagine that would start ripping up that play field with those balls being as rough and, like, completely non-finished anymore. Like, you just start ripping up everything. And then what? Then you go to them, like, my playfield is getting destroyed, and they come to find out they had bad balls. And then they're going to be like, well, why didn't you know that you put the bad balls in there or something? Like, I don't know. Oh, I can't imagine. If other balls like that have made it into their games and nobody looked, oh, my God, what a time bomb. Well, and, yeah, look, back to the playfield things as well. I guess we sort of alluded to it last week, but it's even harder for us in Australia, I guess, because let's say it is a play field that needs to be swapped. Yeah, you're screwed. We then go away. Well, it depends on whether they get, you know, air freighted out, but there's a further delay for them to get to us. So a good friend of mine, I mentioned this to you before, but also on another machine. So a Monster Bash remake has got a play field that is overall really poor. Just like you couldn't even say it's on a post. There's a bit of a crack. It's just the paint to wood and then clear on top or whatever it is. The whole thing is just really subpar. so you've then got like a smaller company like cgc they've got to then replace the play field is it populated is it unpopulated who knows you've then got to wait even longer in australia for these things to arrive and be fixed so it's still just not a great situation guys really is what we're saying so clearly they feel that you guys will put up with a lot more like you guys are getting all of like the hand-me-downs from everybody ah this playfield doesn't look this yeah this thing looks like shit and i send it australia they're used to that over there what are they gonna say they've got such poor standards in fact they they barely have people machine so they'll just be happy with anything yeah and by the time that they'll be like they'll get it and they'll be like oh this sucks and we'll get well the new ones out you want that one yeah because well it takes it takes a year to get there it takes so long and then okay sure we'll replace your play field see you in eight months yeah so but you know it was we sort of made the point like what why did we not have this problem in the past and um you know another good friend of mine um he does he does clearing like that's what he like clear coats that's what he does um i guess probably as a living these days he now just does restoring machines. And he was talking to what you had mentioned, I think it was you that mentioned last week, about the different chemicals that they use these days can't be as toxic as they were back in the day. And when you are working with, I guess, things that are more water-based, you just get different results. But, you know, let's say five years ago, we weren't having these problems either. No, I think that, obviously, I don't think that the cleric code has changed in the last X years. I think that that's something that went out a while ago, like 10, 15 years ago when they were forced to not doing that. But, I mean, it's just, clearly this was just a bad batch that either, I don't know, they get rushed out. Or, I mean, it seems that Wonka is the biggest affected one. The poster child. yeah and I mean they really were trying to get that out like quick and to be like you know we're sending these out for you know we plan on when we announce but they're out and so I don't know if things were rushed because of that and that maybe the playfields needed to cure long I have no idea or I mean and it might not even be Andre's Jack it could just be that whoever supplied the playfields lied and just said oh yeah we got them ready and they're ready to go yeah to cover their own butts of just being like, we didn't get them done in time. Yeah. And that was the point we were making. They don't actually make the playfields. They don't make any of the parts. They put them together. When I was there, when I did the factory tour, God, what machine was it that was just coming out? It would have been, probably would have been Hobbit. And I just saw these giant crates. You might have seen my game. Because I went there to pick up my game too. Right. So, obviously, they had just arrived, and I just saw them actually, you know, flicking through like a card box, like flicking through the different playfields, just seeing them as they came through. So they don't make these things. They assemble the machines. So it really is on whomever has made these. So when people say, oh, Jersey Jack, Jersey Jack, it's like, okay, well, ultimately they're responsible because they sold you the machine, but they didn't cause the problem. Yeah, and there's no way they could have known that. Like looking at the play field, it looks fine until you start, you know, jacking those posts and everything down. You're not going to notice. And even then it might not have risen right away. It might have taken, you know, I don't know, a day and all of a sudden it started pushing. But I mean, there's no way they could have known by looking at it. They have to just they have to take the word of the people sent them when the correct shape, because when it arrives at factory, that means it is ready. so you know that sounds just like the company who made the playfields just sent them out early and they weren't ready or you know maybe i don't know maybe and it wasn't temperature controls controlled when they sent it so it softened because it was too hot who knows but i mean it doesn't even seem like i mean poor ryan like that that machine had like the gobstopper was messed up on it too and not working and then it had the balls and then had the chipping like what else could be wrong with that machine like uh that sucks and of all the places that needs that that you just hope that you know your machines are good it's because you're so far away like uh yeah so you guys need to have the best stuff that's that you're absolutely right if it's gonna be i don't know a ramp or a pop bumper cap or a spinner or something like that you break it But as soon as you get a play field, that's a big undertaking. No, it's just like a transmission going in a car. It's like, well, new car. I can't fix that. Not exactly. And it's too expensive. Yeah, I mean, that is the one downside of being where you are because more or less you get the prototype. Not prototypes, but you get the very first batch of everything that ever gets made. Yeah, that is true. You find out of all the problems that they might find before they actually put in fixes. And then eventually when they do get the fixes, who knows that either, A, you're not going to get them because they're too big, or still you're going to get them way down the line. Yeah. That does suck. And it is very frustrating. And I think ages ago I did tell this story about a car that I bought. It was a, let's face it, it was an expensive car. I'm not going to say how much it was, but there were lots of zeros in it, is all I'm saying. Yeah, you're pretty. You live the life we all wish we had. Yes. I am also 20 to 30 years in front of most people. So there's that as well. He has the best fireplace. That's all I've seen of his house, and that was enough. I'll tell you the reality of that story one day. Anyway, so the problem with this car was that as I was driving it out of the showroom and, you know, it was this hype to get it. And as I drove it out of the showroom, I noticed that there was something wrong with the gearbox. And I had to spend two weeks convincing them that there was something wrong with the gearbox. And they're saying, no, no, no, we've driven it. There's nothing wrong with it. I'm like, well, my friend has exactly the same car as me. I want you to drive that and drive mine. And when they did, they went, oh, yeah, actually, there's a real problem there. They then had to take my car and get a new gearbox from Germany, which took three months. So that narrows it down. What type of car it is, ladies and gentlemen? Yeah, well, yep. And so it was one of those dual clutch gearboxes, right? So I had to wait three months. And that whole experience for me was really sour because I was like, well, hang on. I've just spent a lot of money on a machine. First of all, I had to prove to you that there was actually something wrong with it. And then you had to replace a very complex part that took three months. See the parallel between the situation that's happening at the moment? Yeah, at that point, I'd be like, no, take this one and give me a different one. I don't want a fixed part of this. It's not just like a play field where literally it's like an entire new game because it's just like you get an entire new thing. Like when they swapped the Playfield for my Hobbit, it was a brand new – like everything was much better than the one that was in mine for all the other stuff. But, yeah, I mean, like something like huge like that, like if someone came to me like, yeah, we kept your car and we swapped your transmission. I'd be like, no, no, no, no, no. No, I don't want to see – when it comes to cars and consumer law, we don't have what's called the lemon laws. Oh, the lemon laws, yeah. Yeah. So they have to go and repair it. The funny thing is about that car, it's like three months, and it drove me freaking nuts because I wanted to show off this car, right? And I couldn't, and everybody knew about it, and it was just really embarrassing. And I wrote to them saying, I'm really embarrassed by this experience, and you should do something about it. Anyway, it took three months to fix it. Ironically, two years later, they had to replace, get this. The gearbox? The entire engine. which probably was because of the gearbox no it was just it was completely separate but that took three months as well so I had this car for three years and six months of its life was in a workshop yeah so when you guys look up what company this could be I recommend don't buy another one yeah don't buy from this company don't buy from Audi what did I say I was assuming it was Jaguar because I know those cars are a shit Well, they're not German. Where are Jaguars from? British. They're British. Ah. Yeah. So anyway, it's why I will never buy an Audi again. So there you go. That is unfortunate. But the point I'm trying to make is I get it. I feel it. Even though, you know, I don't have a Wonka right now that's damaged and I can sit here going, you know what, guys? Just wait for them to come back. They'll let you know the process. I was in exactly that same situation. where I was so frustrated because I'd spent a lot of money, and $15,000 for a pinball machine is a lot of money, comparably, for a toy, and people just are having really bad experiences. Now, that's a lot of money, period, let alone for a toy. It's even worse when it's a toy. Yeah, correct. Yeah, I think that if, for instance, if Dr. Pin was in your situation, I think he'd be way more worried about his game. But because, I mean, he's not that far from Jersey Jack. if it comes out that there's something wrong like they can literally bring a playfield to him in a few hours whereas you you're screwed they're going to have to fly something over to you well not for you because you're not getting a wonka lucky you but I'll sort of repeat I'll repeat what we spoke about before we actually hit the record button in that last week you know when we were talking to Dr. Penning he's like yeah you know what it's not going to be a problem And we were like, why are you not getting stressed out about this? The point I made was, he is a doctor. He is a surgeon. And just about every day, he's saving lives. So I think when it comes to levels of stress, having a little fracture on your pinball machine is not as stressful as trying to save someone's life every day of your life. No, but we don't work in the grand scheme of things here, Martin. No, I know. We live in our own little fractured. oh my god pinball land everything's on fire i know so so anyway let's move on to something completely different but sort of related because you know when we're talking about here's my segue here it comes so you know we're talking about old games that don't have these problems this is such a bad segue let's talk about data east wasn't one of your best about about five minutes ago i had a much better segue but we kept the conversation going so anyway so data east are you a fan of data race machines some of them yeah i i um by the way this isn't necessarily news this is just a segment we're going to do but i i've got a real soft spot for data race games because um back when you know it was the real heyday of pinball for me where i was playing about five to six hours of pinball every single day out in arcades. And, you know, you would just get new machines all the time. You liked learning one rule set and being able to apply it to seven different games. But back then, it didn't matter as much because we weren't playing pinball the way we are now. We weren't too worried about rules. Back then, it was just multiball and it was the fun of getting multiball. The theme. And the theme and getting through to whatever sort of wizard mode, if one existed back then, that's what it was about. So it was a simpler time, and therefore we were okay with simpler games. But throughout, I guess, the journey of Data Reist, which I can't even remember, it was kind of like 1988 to 93 or something. Stern, the teenage years. well it was it was early days of um of pinball and throughout its journey it did get more complicated and the themes got better the art got better you know it just got better yeah because i mean a lot of this there like at least i want to say five five or six of of them they all have the same rules and literally you picking what theme and what playfield you like better That's pretty much what it was, right? Yeah. So, Daenerys do get historically a bad rap. Well, I mean, relative to what? Compared to, say, Gottlieb? I'd say they have a pretty good record. but i mean compared to like the williams ballys then yeah that's not overly fair i mean i guess it is but they're completely well no they are but i think the i think the reason why gottlieb gets away with it is that he's like full history uh gottlieb's got a lot better history before in that sort of the em era and possibly early solid states but um then obviously the premier phase, they just went to Garbage Town. Hey, there were some good ones in there. That's fine. Well, there were before they got the big pointy slippers, and even then, there's a couple that... We talked about Surf and Safari. I've got a real soft spot for Surf and Safari, but there's not a lot... I like that game. Thank you. Stargate. That's the other good one. Yeah, it's okay. I don't mind cube or wizard. Anyway, don't kill me for that. We're not here to talk about Gollywood. We need to have a ramp shot. Maybe we will do a premiere battle royale. Sure. You could do all of Gottlieb or something. I don't know if there's enough in premiere to do one, but yeah. You definitely could do that. I want it. Alright. Okay. Basically what we're going to do is we are going to do a battle royale of these Data East games. And, you know, don't kill me for this, but I've taken the ranking from IPDB, which I don't think has been updated for at least three years, so whatever. But, you know, just a lot of these machines, I don't even know whether they were going to be in the Pinside Top 300, so I've just taken it from that. What I want to do, I want to talk about these machines from the bottom up. I agree with the two worst ones, or definitely the two worst ones. And then the next one up is the next worst. So I think these are very accurate. Right. So because there was only 25, I think, 25 machines that you would consider full production games. So we took out things like Richie Rich and I don't know, might have been a Michael Jordan one or something like that. Really? There's a Richie Rich machine? well yeah there is there's a one off and there's also like the Aaron Spelling one and all that kind of stuff Jesus I need to know more shit no I don't I've actually I've actually played the Aaron Spelling one I can't remember what it is it was probably I don't know I want to say maybe Lethal Weapon 3 that just got you know rethemed constantly anyway so what didn't make the list therefore is Playboy 35th Anniversary. Wait, that's not even on here. No, because I've taken it off. I've only given you the top 16. No, but I mean when I go to IMDB and I click on Data East, it's not in here. There's 16 of them. What the heck did I... Oh, Data East slash Sega version 3. Yeah, you just got to pick Data East. Anyway, so from the bottom you've got Playboy 35th Anniversary. It is a garbage game. Yes, that's really bad. I got the play there. I was like, wow. Yep. It's just all about this one round. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles didn't make the cut. So sad. Yeah. I've heard that that game is really, really bad. Multiple people have told me it's barely a game. Yeah. And that we have. There's going to be one for Pinmasters of New Robert Englunds, probably finals. and I don't even know what to do with it. I'm going to hopefully see you about not using it, but... It's... I... Remember I said at the heyday of when all these Data Race games came out, I played Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles to death. I played it and I really enjoyed it. But then cut to, I don't know, 15, 20 years later when I played it, oh, it hasn't aged well. Well, if I have to figure out a score or to know anything about the game, I knew who I'm calling. Don't call me. Checkpoint also didn't make it. And, hmm, Checkpoint's actually not that bad a game. The one-shot game. Most of these are. Especially the next one, Batman. Batman with that ramp right in the middle, which, I don't know, reminds me of Thunderbirds. Anyway. Oh, wait, yeah. Yeah, it does kind of remind, yeah. It is. so in that if you've got a ramp that's right in the middle it means you are blocking the potential of three or four shots if it was a fan layout but you know that's what happens but you can like put the put your balls in the joker's eyes and mouth meh so dirty it's just it's just the game i'm just looking at the playfield it's not my fault yeah gotcha um the next one was phantom of the opera Now, it's a garbage game, right? No doubt it's garbage. I've heard that some people like it, but... No, it's brutal. Scores unbalanced. Yeah, it seems like you just hit that... What is it? The organ or something on the right? You just hit that and keep doing that. Correct. Put your balls in the organ. It's not... I know, right? It's not great, but I loved it when it came out. But I don't love it now. Robocop didn't make the list. Oh, that's true. It's not on there. No. No, that's a good game. It's actually a good game. It's fucking brutal. It is so fast. Neither did Torpedo Alley, which is also a good game. Torpedo Alley and Monday Night Football also didn't get in. Torpedo Alley I quite like, but it's not going to make a top 16 list because what's the theme? And I think, isn't Torpedo Alley the one that's got the ridiculous back glass? Yeah. Yeah, dive, dive. Alley pinball. Let's have a look. I would certainly pick that above a couple of the things on this list. Yep. So when I think about the back glass, and I'm encouraging everybody to look up torpedo alley pinball, the thing that comes to mind is pants. Glorious pants. Oh, spectacular pants. It's all about dem pants. Especially pants that go up to your chest. Yep, correct. so so what that means is our effectively our top 16 is oh man some of these don't belong in here if you if you could swap out a couple of these with a robocop and uh torpedo alley they'd be more of a challenge in their brackets but i know but it's not terrible um look that's another one that's really interesting because i i don't know i really liked the simpsons when it came out now oh no it's it's hot garbage and at least now when you have to like hit drop targets and then the ramp so it's like there's a little something else to do yeah so anyway let's let's let's go from 16 to 1 this is the how it's ranked at the moment and then we want everybody to um i'm actually going to be putting up the bracket for this early but we are going to be talking about it now um in 16 you've got star trek which i think is what like the 25th anniversary correct and it and it's got this lenticular backbox thing which makes them look like they're transporting. Which is really cool. And the layout kind of looks interesting. It's got one of those spooky Cyclops targets. I say that, but like, you know, Black Pyramid. Yeah, Black Pyramid and also Thunderbirds. Thunderbirds, that's one of those? Thunderbirds, that's one on the right. But it's effectively this target that moves from left to right and you can shoot behind it. I've clearly marked that out of my head. It never happened. We've all tried to. Anyway, so Star Trek is 16. Again, one of those ones. It was fun at the time, just absolutely terrible to play now. It's not that bad, honestly. It's fun to shoot. It's got decent rules. A game is there. At least you can hit some shots. But again, it's all about the ramps. Left ramp, right ramp, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, whatever. Not necessarily. We'll get to that when we get to them. Yeah, next week when we go through them in detail. Number 15 is The Simpsons. Yeah. Also, we're not actually going through these right now. Okay, I gotcha. We're just talking about it. We're not actually doing the brackets. We're just doing our initial impressions of The Simpsons, what you think of it. Okay, yeah. I'd like 25th event anniversary way more than The Simpsons. At least 25th, you actually have to shoot the most of the play field. The Simpsons, from what I remember, I mean, it seems, I believe that literally you're either looping the ramp as much as you can or hitting the drop targets, which light locks, which then you do that and then you hit the ramp some more. Yeah, okay. It's, I would say, the art's quite colourful and cartoony. It actually looks, I think it actually looks better than it plays. it's got the pop bumper caps are the nuclear plant sort of dome roof type things wow the pictures on on on this kind of cool database are terrible yeah i know so like um oh the layout's okay it's it's all right yeah i mean of this error i think it's not that bad if it used it more Yeah, it's really let down by rules. Very simple rules. It's get multiball and... Yeah, or you can loop the left ramp for millions, I think. Yeah. That spinner shot in the middle is kind of cool. Yeah, but it's all right. It's just all right. It's better than other games, so I guess there's something. It's better than Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, which everything in this list, as bad as we might say they are, is better than Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Yes! A box with a rock in it is better than Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. Is Thunderbirds better than Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles? See, why'd you have to ask that? I know, I know. I don't know because I haven't played Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, so I'm going to assume not. Yeah, fair enough. So the next one on the list is Secret Service. Now, I've heard that this game is actually really good. It is fun. Except for a game-breaking bug that breaks the game. Well, again, it's one of those things that just hasn't translated well, rules-wise. But, yeah, it's actually a fun layout. It kind of, layout-wise, reminds me very much of High Speed. And apparently I've heard it's better than High Speed, and it's actually a really good game. but I believe that there's a bug in it that like it breaks the game like there's a certain thing everyone can go look it up on Keith Elwin's YouTube page which is still in existence I believe and he played he has a couple videos on this where he shows it off and I believe that the big bug is in one of them which sucks because it does seem like it's a really cool game minus that bug but again I don't know if Is Sorin or whatever, are they doing... No, actually, no, this is a DTE, so they might be a new ROM for this, because they've done ROMs for a ton of the other DTEs. So maybe it's used. Maybe. I think it's an underrated game because it's a fun layout, really fast and fun to flip. It's not going to be so high because what sort of theme is Secret Service? It's actually not a licensed theme. And, you know, we know a licensed theme just rates higher. That's just a fact. High speed's not a license theme. So, I mean... No, I know. There are some exceptions. Thanks for ruining my argument. Well, you ruined my last one, mister. I'm going to... I mean, you have the Trump card of just Thunderbirds. This is worse than everything that's ever existed. I will always have that. I mean, if you would have brought that up and been like, well, what about your cabinet with a rock? Is that better than Thunderbirds? Like, oh, I don't know. Martin. Keep throwing them in there. I don't know. Is it a round rock? I don't know. We have to preface that a little. Does the rock have cracked clear underneath it? I don't know. Does it? We don't know. We don't know. We don't know. We have to give it time. Anyway. We'll find out when it gets to Australia. So the next one, which is seeded 13th, is Lethal Weapon 3. which I haven't played much of it the only one I've ever played I believe which was at Pinball Wizard and like let's see if I can find a picture of the play field I remember playing it like the flippers were like really bad and I believe that the scoop on the left there were feeds on the game that went the middle no matter what you did so I never really got to play this game although I've heard it's good I mean Ron certainly fucking thinks it is so it's it's good if you've got the new ROM It's one of these ones, like another game which we'll talk about that's much higher seeded, where there's a lot of game, but just hit the ramp. If you just hit the ramp, because it's a safe shot, you will just rack up the points. I've heard that this game is good because there's three different strategies you can go for. Yeah, there is, but just hit the ramp. Okay. I'll have to try that out when eventually I see one of these things. Well, it's like... We're going to talk about it later, like Star Wars. Star Wars, with the original ROM, just hit the center out. You know what I mean? But then when you put the new ROM and it doesn't pay that much, you've got to play the rest of the game to get your points. That's the same as Lethal Weapon 3. I didn't realize this game had that same problem. Yep. And just to note, Lethal Weapon 3 was the second highest-selling Data Race game of 10,350 units. Wow. I assume Star Wars is first? We'll get to that. All right. But, you know, most of these, if you think about some of the ones we've talked about already, you know, Playboy 35th was just over 2,000 units. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles was just under 4,000 units. Checkpoint's 3,500. Batman's 3,500. Phantom of the Opera is just under 3,000. And then Robocop, Torpedo Alley, and Monday Night Football are between 1 and 1,500 units, right? The answer to my question is already on the screen in front of me. Yes, I know. But yeah, so Lethal Weapon, 10,000 units, one of only two machines from Data Reef that sold over 10,000 units. So seed number 12 is Hook. Bing-a-ring! Quack-quack-quack-quack! Hook. I lost money on this at Pembroke. Really? Yeah, I was playing. Like a dollar game. Yeah, I was playing with Nick for like, I think I lost $10 on this. Yeah. Stupid game. One of these things is that Hook is another one of these, let's say, games slash Data East, games slash Thunderbirds, that's got a big ramp in the middle, right? It's a very cool ramp. It is a very cool ramp that sort of circles all the way around. But the last two Hook machines that I've played have had weak flippers that have not been able to get the ball up the ramp. and that's all the game. You know? Well, then you can go for multiball or go for those modes on the side or go for clock millions or something. Clock something. Croc time. So, yeah. It's interesting, but I mean... Yeah, it's poop. As long as you don't have to play it a ton. It's fun to play here and there. Yeah. Yeah. So, anyway. Next one up. Seed number 11 is Back to the Future. What do you think about Back to the Future? Awful. this game is garbage i've had the place a couple times this game is so bad i loved it when it came out loved it played it to death has an age drop no and i would say out of every all the games we've talked about so far this is the one i hate the most like it's just it shoots really clunky it seems every single one of them have massive flipper hops that means you can't shoot anything on the fly and it's just it just feels just shitty when you shoot it i don't know maybe i've played like i don't know three different copies of them they all had the same problem just flipper hops you can see even in the picture that i'm looking at you can see this gigantic flipper hop on the left it's just like i don't know i don't it's you can't shoot anything on the fly it's super clunky you shoot it for a while and it just i don't know i don't think that remember having like even good sound. Well, yeah. It's spelled DeLorean, it seems. Yeah. It's not aged well. I'd venture to say that by looking at it, I would say this is the worst game on the list. I don't think that's... We've still got a few more games to get through. No, I think this is worse. I'm calling it. We'll see, but I'm calling it. I would certainly say it is. it's overrated mainly because people love the theme so they're like, and because it goes for good dollars like it's still, it's not a cheap game and it's because of the theme and it's the only Back to the Future people machine that's been made, it's why people are screaming for a remake to be done. People are just buying for the theme it has nothing to do with the game Another one of these games, when it came out I put so much money through it, I loved it Simpsons is better than this game No, eh, they're on par so the the next seed is arguably the best data race game that's ever been made oh hopefully it's not the one i think you're gonna say because you are wrong rocky and bullwinkle oh okay never mind it's fun i like rocky and bullwinkle i actually think it's a pretty good game i love the theme so again one of these things i grew up on rocky and bullwinkle every day before school Rocky and Bullwinkle every single day how old are you? I did the same thing what's going on here? we are not the same age we are not from similar decades what show was on before it? I swear to god if you say the same one oh um I can't remember Underdog, I watched every morning I watched Underdog, Bullwinkle and then I believe George, George, George of the Jungle. Those were like the three. Yeah, watch out for that tree. Yeah, yeah. Watch out for that tree. Yeah, it was like all those three were all back to back, I think, in the morning. I watched every single morning. Yep. Look, what I love about Rocky and Bullwinkle is not its layout. Its layout, you know, it's fine. It's a data race. But it's the call-outs. They just picked all the best call-outs. It's also got the interactive backbox where he pulls a rabbit out of the hat and the wrong hat. The rules aren't that bad. It shoots well. The biggest problem with the game, which if you come across them, is whether or not the flippers are strong enough. That is true. If it's a good shooting, good strong game, it's fun. I've played it in a couple tournaments. I like it. It's fun to shoot. The rules are pretty good. Hasn't it got one shot or one rule where one shot gives you billions of points over everybody else? Not billions. You can double your score via doing a certain amount of super mysteries, but you have to set it up so it's not like Premiere where they're just like, here, just do that. Oh, there you go. So there's Rockin' Bullwinkle. Love it. Absolutely love it. Love the art. Just love the game. I haven't got a chance to play that in a while. There's not a lot of them. No, you don't see them that often. Now, the next game is known for blinding you. and that is laser war pew pew uh come on laser war where the hell are you is that actually the hell are you I don know That what lasers sound like Lasers Pew pew Where the hell is Laser Wars? Oh, there we go. Ah, na-ta-da. I love this game. Love it. Wow. Why does this site have such terrible pictures of the play field? There's literally no good picture of the play field on internet. You can't image it. I'm going to have to. Laser Wars pinball. That's where I'm getting them all. I like this game a lot I like the layout, it's really fast so you've got to have your reflexes it's got blinding flashes all over the place it's a good game just again, one of those ones that doesn't have a great theme the backbox is a bit we're talking leotards oh wow, yeah I've never played this I've never seen this it's a good game, it's good so for a non-licensed game for it to be seeded so high it's a good game yeah I've when I was thinking was there something else that sounds similar to Laser Wars that might like be a Gottlieb like laser something yeah I think it might be Williams yeah there was something lasers that's what I was thinking this was but this looks completely different this actually looks it has some neat shots this looks this must be like right before or close to when they made Time Machine, because it's very Time Machine-looking. Well, correct. So this was 87, and Time Machine was 88. Mm-hmm. So the next seed from 94 was WWF Royal Rumble, a widebody. Mm. A good game. It's actually a good game, isn't it? It might be the best of that era, or one of the best. It has similar rules. It has some extra rules than some of the other ones, but it's fun. I like it. And because it's 94, which was effectively the year they shut down or became Sega, as I said before, we went from simple rules to really good rules with modes, and there's a lot to do. What they've really done with Royal Rumble is they've actually made sort of separate sections of the game. The only example I can give is like a genie, a Gottlieb genie, where you've got those separate sections. Wizard of Oz. Yeah, kind of like that. So Royal Rumble, it's a good game. I can't stand the theme, obviously. The theme is one of the things I like about it because this is my era of wrestling that I like. Okay. That I grew up with. And then the next one up is Time Machine. This is Seeded Seventh from 1988. which is fun as long as you're not playing it at Pemberg which both was going to attest to just fuck that game burn it chuck it off the roof Todd Tucky style so anyway next one up C6 from 93 Last Action Hero which I really like Last Action Hero yeah I like it it's for me I think there's a few games that I think are quite similar when it comes to rules framework. And the three of them are Last Action Hero, Tommy, and Jurassic Park. They're all the same, though. Like, literally. Yeah, that's what I meant. Yep. So I make all of these last... Every single one of these last seeds are all almost the same. Yeah, correct. So the next one up is... Not just those three. But this one has some cool toys on it, like the crane's neat and... Yep. Yeah. it's got some interesting game mechanics it it it does i can't there's another game that does remind me of but better than one of those oh yeah i like tommy but it's one of these ones where it's got the you know when they've got like the hit the captive ball mode and it's like oh fuck just ignore it because it's just it's danger when you do it but well i wonder if this had got if this has a ROM like the other ones that have fixed that. Because pretty much every single one that has the new code on it of these Data Eats, I think is much better than the original and really helps with actually playing the modes. Yeah, yeah, it's all right. Whatever. Very passionate about Data East. Yeah. Yeah, I just really didn't play Last Action Hero that much, but I like it. The next one up from 94 is Tommy. We talked about it. The Who's Tommy Pinball Wizard, which I would say has got one of the coolest features in pinball ever. What, diddling people? That's a mode. It's the blinders. The blinders is cool, yeah. Yeah. So for those people that don't know, in one of the modes, but also you can start the game, I think, by holding in the extra ball button. Is that right? Yep. These blinders, like this fan, comes across the bottom where the flippers are and completely blinds the flippers. So you can't see the ball down there at all. In my opinion, that is the only redeeming factor of this game. Because I think that of all the other Day-Days games, I think this has the worst layout, and I think it has the worst theme. And they all have the same rules. so it's like that's all you can go by. I hate this game. I don't hate this game at all. I actually quite like it. This game is like the avatar for everything that we're mocked for, Martin. This game is why no one takes us seriously. And then we're all this little stupid, you're blind, you're a pinball wizard, you're a pinball wizard. Yeah. Fair enough. All right, let's move on quickly from it then. And seed number four is Tales from the Crypt. I love Tales of the Crypt. Yep. I love the theme. Fun game. And again, also way better with the new code. Yeah. Have you played it with the new code? I don't know whether I have played with the new code. I've played it quite a bit. It's all right. Was there an overt amount of laughing? No. Then maybe it's new code. because the new code adds a lot more call-outs. There were a ton of call-outs that weren't used. They kind of ramped back the ridiculous amount of laughing in the original code. Yeah. You know, I'm not a big fan of the layout. I think it's got some clunky shots that I don't really like. I was never a big fan of Tales from the Crypt, the theme itself, so that doesn't really do much for me. But it's a fun game. And, you know, again, one of those ones, 93, it came out, so it's got modes and there's lots to do. and, you know, it's got the reverse ramp and stuff. Which I like that. And then I like, like, one thing I like about this game that has a big advantage over the other ones in this quadrility or whatever you call these set of games. What are you calling it? Sorry. I don't know. I just made up a word. Yeah. Quadrility. Quadrility or something. Yeah. But, like, out of all the other ones, this has the hardest mode start. So it's kind of like you want to do it via the upper flipper. that's the easiest way to hit it. Also, same thing for hitting the mirror or the grave is also best shot from the upper flipper. So it's like this one is harder, so I think I appreciate that more where it's not just like, you know, hit orbit, hit easily started mode. Whereas this one it's a lot more challenging to play this game than it is some of the other ones that have a lot easier of mode starts. So I think this one's a little more fun because it plus, and I grew up with a theme, so I do like the theme. Yeah, fair enough. This is also one of the games, and I don't know all of them, but Rocky and Bullwinkle's another one. This is one that actually rewards you for a death save. Yes, it does. Points. So that happens. So encouraging people to death save. Although I didn't know Rocky did. I knew that this game did, but I didn't know Rocky did. Yeah, I'm pretty sure Rocky does as well, and I think there's one other. And if we're thinking 93. There's got to be one of them in this trilogy. Yeah. quadrilogy. Yeah. You said it much better than I did. Is it? Yep. Wow. Yep. So you didn't make up completely. Yeah, no, I think I remember buying Alien Movie, like a box set, and it was the quadrilogy. So there you go. Wow. Yep. So next one up, this was their highest selling game with 10,400 units. Star Wars. from 92. Which is fun. It has some... With the new code, it's fun. I will say that outside of some weird stuff in the game that literally doesn't seem to do anything, like the whole land speeder thing, I don't know what that was supposed to be. No. Well, you mean like the video mode? Yeah. Is it a video mode? It plays a video. Well, no. It was meant to... No, okay. So the story is it was meant to be a video mode and you use the lever to go up and down to avoid things. But for some reason, they couldn't put it in. I think Lucasfilm said, no, you can't do that. And so you just play a video and that's it. Ah, yeah. I mean, I would say that it's, I will definitely say that when learning how to play, and this is one of the games I like playing, is that when you hit the super jackpot on this, it just feels so satisfying to hear that score. when you've done that. And then also, when the game's over, when you're putting in initials, you hear the score too, and it's just like, yes. So this is what it's got going for it, right? First of all, the theme, Star Wars. Second of all, it's got great sounds, I think. But what I think it's actually got going for it is certainly for Data James Rees, but maybe even also for this era, I reckon it's got some of the best DMD animations in a game. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. of this era. It's way better than Cook. Well, that's true. So then, seed number two, the third highest selling data race game at 9,008 units is Jurassic Park from 93. Which, now we all know, shoots like shit. Thanks, Keith, for ruining my childhood. Yeah. The goats, I mean, goats are experts on Jurassic Park, so. If they say that that sucks, then... And I tend to agree. I think that it does... It's quite a clunky game, and the shots are a little bit awkward, but I still quite like the layout. I wish it was better. I wish that upper loop worked better. I haven't really played this since I've been good at pinball, but I remember... So I can't tell if it was... I'm going to take his word on it, because he is good at pinball. But when I was... I had tons of issues shooting this game. But I guess maybe it was a combination of me sucking and then also this game being super clunky. It's a combination. And the highest seeded game, number one, from 94, 3,000 of them were made. Hence probably why they are so ridiculously expensive to buy secondhand. Guns N' Roses. Yeah, which, I don't know. I mean, it's fun, but I don't think it deserves to be the number one seed. but because you only do, so talk about a one trick pony. If it was balanced a little more and it wasn't just multiball all day, pick super pops, then be a little more interesting. But yeah. And look, I say it's, it's the number one seed because I had to sort them by their ranking and it just happened to be number one. But you know, guys, we're not expecting major science from this battle Royale. But you know, it's, it's got a ranking, a rating of eight. So does Jurassic Park, Star Wars, Tales from the Crypt and Tommy. So, you know, whatever. Well, okay, so this is the point, right? If it's not the best, we will find out through this voting system. That's right. And all it makes, all of that, hearing that makes me want to work is that I want the new one to be good. I want the new one to be really good, damn it. Yep, correct. But Guns N' Roses is a great game. I actually really enjoy it, but it suffers from a lot of the data risks where the layout is quite clunky. Well, and you don't use all of it for the most part. There's just certain parts you don't use. And also I found out of all the games, I've noticed this happens the most on Guns N' Roses, is that something weird with the opto boards for the flippers, where sometimes you'll be flipping and you'll just get a half power flip randomly that you'll go to shoot the left ramp and you'll go to flip and it'll hit the drop targets and it's right in the meat of the flipper because there's a known board problem with this game. And I imagine those boards are on other games, but it always seems, when I notice it happening on the games, it always seems to be Guns N' Roses for whatever reason. Yeah, okay. Sorry. um it's got one of it's got one of the most annoying things in pinball ever and that is the right outline which for some reason is just a huge you know it's oh my god how do you build that is there is it possible to build that to make that worth sweet sweet cash no i have no idea but it is literally a vortex down there the ball if it's going to go anywhere near the right outline there you go. Hi, Michelle. Well, yeah, but it was the same thing on Tommy. Those ones that has those extra rubbers on the slings that just make them all just die and immediately go. Yeah. That was very characteristic of Dada East in that you just wouldn't get much of a bounce off the top of the slings. Yeah, because they have extra round rubbers underneath the rubber so that when it hits it, it just absorbs all of the momentum. It just goes, which makes Tommy suck even more. Yeah, Tommy's another one that does it. So, yeah. Anyway. So there you go, guys. We're setting the scene. That's Data East Battle Royale. Star Trek, Simpsons, Secret Service, Lethal Weapon 3, Hook, Back to the Future, Rocky and Bullwinkle, Laser War, WWF or Rumble, Time Machine, Last Action Hero, Tommy, Tales from the Crypt, Star Wars, Jurassic Park, Guns N' Roses. Sorry in advance that there's no Robocop. well i wish there were sweet sweet jumps but there's not robocop is really good as a robber group yeah i think it is and i and i don't know if you've played torpedo alley but i love i really like torpedo alley too yeah yeah yeah i love torpedo alley like you could take those two those two are better than like at least five of those games but the rules be the rules y'all they are indeed that's how numbers work they are indeed so yeah so yeah so just to go like games like king kong didn't make the list as well because they never really got into production it was still just prototype they made eight of them but it's not there i wonder if any of these still exist it's neat looking anyway so Joe me it is you what did I do I didn't do it so the one thing I wanted to point out on social media watch. And I won't necessarily talk about it too much here because I'm going to link it in the show notes and I really want people to check this out. But there was actually a gentleman from the UK called Luke Grayson who travelled to Australia. And he's done... Oh, is this the person that did some singing? I don't know. Was it? I don't know. I remember someone saying Pinball Wizard in some social media thing. No, no, no, no. That was last week. That wasn't every... No, this is a guy that just came to Australia, went to I think maybe four or five different venues, pinball venues in Australia, and then wrote a really good trip report about it. And it's on the UK, pinballclub.co.uk. So I would encourage everybody, go to that website anyway. You can follow some news there. And so he got to go to all the places that we know, like Pinball Paradise, Pixel Alley, Bartronica, the Golden Police Hotel. Bartronica. Yeah, it's a barcade in the city. So I just want you to everybody just, you know, go and read this article and, you know, it's a funny written article and, you know, it's, I guess it's kind of like you get to experience what it's like coming out to Australia, in Melbourne in particular, and experiencing our pinball scene. Yeah, and he writes everything with balls. He does. This one was five balls. This one was only four balls. I know, four balls. But, you know. So, anyway. I'm just putting it out there. It's in the show notes, guys. Go and have a read. Wow. Some of these places have a nice lineup. Beatles. Looks like a premium Iron Maiden. A premium Deadpool. Premium Munsters. Munsters, yeah. The only weird one here is Black Knight. It's not a premium. Throw that shit away. Oh, it is now. Oh, they swapped it. It is now. So the particular operator that puts those machines in there is one of our bigger distributors called Zach's Amusements, and they put the Pro as soon as it comes out, and then when the Premium or LE comes out, they will then put that on on-site. That's a clever way to do it, because then you buy it, and then you sell the Pro. You've already made money off of it, and it probably pays for the difference. So, yeah, it's pretty clever. Yep. So that's at Pixel Alley, which is a great venue. It is a barcade, so there's lots of video games. And then out the back, there's those fire machines. And there's tournaments that run there as well. In fact, on the six days of Deep Pinball in Melbourne, one of those events is actually at Pixel Alley. I swear I've heard that name before or some semblance of that. I don't know. I can't put my finger on it. Okay. So there you go. Shall we do Joe Tips the Top 100? Sure. Let's get our good friend Google lady ready to go. Sure. Where is she? There she is. Hey, Google, pick a number between 1 and 100. All right. All right. 90. 90. Oh. Sword to Fury. This is funny because someone was asking me advice about getting one of these games, and I uh emphatically told him not to really it's not that bad a game is it I mean it has its pluses but I mean yeah but I mean it's what you do one thing which is the left orbit as long as you can yeah that's the problem is it that's just to get the multiball right yeah so it's just and that's all I did at Pimberg and I won so whatever yeah um against Roger Sharp, so what of it? Whoa, whoa, peacock a little there. That's right. So talk to me, before going into the rules, talk to me about Swords of Fury, the layout, and what it's all about. So, I mean, the first thing when you're plunging the ball, you just want your hard plunging, I believe, always goes to the upper flipper. Most of the time, you don't want to flip because it'll bounce off the rubber and go back into your flipper, which will give you a better chance at flipping flipping and actually making contact with the ball because it's a lot slower and it's a controlled thing. When you're up there, you want to get them all down to make them all solid. I think they're all blinking originally. The hard one is the back is that red one in the far, right above the flipper. That's really hard to get unless you can get a trap and backflip it to get up there. But then after that, you're going to fall down and then it's going to come down the left orbit or Does it come to the left or does it go to the upper flipper? I don't even remember. It's going to come down to the bottom, and then what you're going to do, whether you post-transfer or do whatever you can to get to the right, and then you're going to shoot the left orbit. And then you're going to get a ball locked, and then you're going to shoot it again. And then you're going to shoot it again. And every time you get locked, you're also going to be increasing the spinner value over there, which if if if that spinner if the flippers are strong and the spinner is juiced that kind of what you going to be shooting the entire game because that spinner can be worth a lot And when you have the multiple balls once you get into multi I believe it's 1x, 2x, 4x play field or 3x. I'm pretty sure the more balls you have in play, the more everything's worth. Is that correct? Possibly. It's kind of like a grand lizard type thing. I don't know the rules of this one all that well. I think that's the way it is. Yeah. But, I mean, you can build it up so that that left spinner is worth $3,500 a spin, which is pretty substantial. But, I mean, the other thing really you can do of any worth is that once you get into multiball is you can try and get the jackpot. And the way to do that is everything's going to come out to the upper flipper. What I tend to do is I hold up that flipper. One ball is just going to go off the end, try and get control. And hopefully you'll have at least one ball trapped on the top. And if you look at the weird ramp area over there, I think literally was just left over from making Tomcat, because I'm pretty sure that's exactly the same thing from Tomcat. I'm not imagining that, right? is that upper area look like the locking mechanism from tomcat yeah where it sort of yeah it can sort of move them into different locations yeah was this before or after tomcat i don't know but either way so that thing is when um whatever red but red light is uh on is where that ball's going to divert when you hit that uh that middle ramp um so most of the time a lot of times it'll either the one you want is you want the upper one so that it feeds the upper flipper because during multiball there's going to be a strobing face uh which is equivalent to the different drop targets up there and if you hit that you get a jackpot um so that is really the only other thing you do i mean it has other rules in it but really you don't care the only other way up there is i I mean, in the middle ramp is the hardest way to get up there. If you just have, if you can just have, you can just shoot the right ramp and that feeds automatically up to the upper flipper and go for the jackpot. And then more or less, if you get the jackpot and then if you don't, maybe it's too hard to get. You just pound that spinner as much as you can. It's super boring and it's just, it's got great sound and music. it's just uh although i will say that it has one of the most annoying features in pinball i've ever heard is that every time you flip the flipper it goes so it's just like you're all he's just that gets super annoying once you notice it uh you're welcome everyone um but uh yeah i think that's i mean that's really all you do because and even you even get benefit if you fuck up and don't hit the left spinner that well because if you there's like different levels of how far it can go up into that that orbit and if you hit it hard you'll get it you'll go to it go until you get a three ball if your second ball is weak and doesn't make it all the way up when it falls in the lock it will start a two ball which i've played copies where the flip is just so weak you just get two ball over all over and over and over again um which you know if it's true that the X is based on how many balls you have in play, then that can suck. I mean, the spinner, the double spinner loop shot is cool in the middle, but it's a death shot for the most part, and it's not worth as much as the left spinner. Yeah. I mean, there's not a lot to do. I mean, that whole middle area, what are you going to do? You're not going to be doing anything up there. But maybe there's more nuances to this game than what I know, but I'm pretty sure that's all you do is you just let it spin as much as you can. I'm pretty sure you've said more than I thought it did. By the way, it was. It came out in 1988, and F-14 Tomcat came out in 87. And the difference... So this is the leftovers. So again, this is really interesting. This is just for comparison that F-14 Tomcat in 87, so we're talking data issues as well, sold 14,502 units. Jesus, that's a lot. And... Swords of Fury, 2,705. Well, it is a better game. I'll agree with those numbers. Tomcat is a fantastic game, whereas this game, meh. Which is weird, because this game, I mean, I don't know, I guess, to get eyeballs to it, well, except for the giant lights, I suppose that's like the ultimate come play me, but, um, like this is a more more interesting sound and I don't know that's what I wouldn't expect that the numbers be that far off but it's quite a significant difference isn't it yeah I wonder if something weird happened in there because because I don't think that back then people like people would still be playing this game they wouldn't be playing it for the strategy so they'd still just be shooting around and Tomcat's a much meaner game that's interesting yeah well and also just in the the same year, just shortly after, Taxi came out, and it sold 7,300 units. What? Really? Taxi is the newest of these three? Really? How is Taxi... According to IPDB, I'm not making this stuff up. I know, but if you look at those games, Taxi is the most simple dumped-down version. If you compare that to these two, Like, these two have way more game in it than Taxi does. Like, wow, I would have never known that, because Taxi is like a super simple, basic game, and then you have these two games, which have a lot going on. Cool lock mechanisms, and... Huh, I would have never thought that. Yeah, well, pinball history. There you go. Yeah, sometimes it goes in reverse. Sometimes you just go backwards and make worse games. I don't know. With less technology in it. um yeah there you go that's what it is that's really shocking to me i can't believe wow huh well i'm not making this stuff up i know that's like the costco like costco version of any game taxi compared to these two but you know to flip is taxi more fun than swords of fury Yes. Yeah, it is. You know what I mean? That's what it is. It looks really simple in comparison, but it's just a fun flipper. And Swords of Fury just looks real. Like when you walk up, you go, oh, my God, there's that upper left play field. It kind of, oh, my God, all this shit's just going on. But then you plunge and you're like, oh, it's not as fun as it was. But if you could mess with the rules of this a little, I think this would be a far superior game. Like, say, imagine if, you know, your lock was lit, you hit it, and then you had to, like, you had to hit the right ramp and, like, get through the drop targets or something to relight your lock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anything. Or you like one of the strobing shots up there on the upper left playfield. Yeah. Like, this game could be way better. Whereas, like, I don't know where you go with Taxi to improve that. It's just so basic. What's after Taxi, since you have it open? Well, I do. Diner? No. Diana came out in 1990 after Taxi was Jokers wow so these are all just Williams games so not Bally at the time it's so interesting because I mean this and Tomcat seem more featured than those but then you've got Earthshaker early 89 and then Black Knight yeah I mean those two obviously have way more going on Yeah. So, I don't know. I mean, it's just... I think they go from trying to do something really innovative, and the world says, maybe you've tried too hard, and they go, okay, well, let's just go back to basics, and there's this back and forth. Yeah, which is a shame, because it's like you go from Tomcat, which is this massive hit, and then you go to this, which could, if you make a couple tweaks on this game, this game could be great. But just to have it just be like that off just a little. So, there you go. So, a bit of trivia as well. Again, I'm only on IPDB, guys, so facts do not apply. But just by looking at the categories, Williams Electronics Games Incorporated from 85 to 99, the highest selling game in 1986. What do you reckon it was? I mean, that was way before. I was two. So, I mean, I guess taking a guess. When did you say Diner was made? Oh, God. I've just sorted it on something completely different. 1990 was Diner. Oh, wow. What's older than Diner? Uh, huh. What's older in that time frame? What company? Williams. Williams. Huh. Uh, Firepower? Or something? Firepower 1 or 2? No. That's earlier, huh? That's earlier. Yeah, see, my concept of, like, how old stuff is. Not very good. High Speed. Oh, yeah. That makes sense. 17,000 units. And then next was Terminator 2 at 15,000 units. So there you go. So High Speed sold less than Tomcat, right? Wasn't that right? No. High Speed was 17,000. Tomcat was 14,500. 17. I thought it was 11. There you go. Yep. There you go. Tomcat's better than High Speed. Get a pinroll trip here for you. Yeah. Fun. So. Stuff. It is good stuff. So let's just do some mail and then you can go about your business. All right. All right. So just a couple of emails now we're going to go through. This is from Austin. It says, hi, guys. In a previous episode, Joe has mentioned buying a Lord of the Rings remake if it ever happened. I'm curious why the remake would be an instant buy. Is there a reason why you don't want an original? Ha-ha. Yay, I got an email on, like, the best topic to ever talk about. See, I like this whole thing. Um, so my rationale is that, um, well, for one, there are some clunky things that don't necessarily work right on Lord of the Rings. Um, for one, you know, the ring can be clunky and not shoot right. The magnet within the ring, uh, probably could be improved greatly. Some of them they don't, it's either off or it's turned off because it, um, has issues with it doesn't grab the ball correctly and sometimes it overheats. so most Lord of the Rings you play will not have the normal correct way of running destroy the ring which is with two balls because after you finish the original sequence you're supposed to put it in the ring it's supposed to hold the ball and then the final shot is supposed to be instead of a normal where it's like oh well I put it through the ring twice and I win well no normally it's supposed to be holding the ball and you have to knock the ball back through the ring to destroy it but most of them they're off because it tends to blow fuses and mess with the magnets Well, I did. Mine, by default, had it set up as one ball for Destroy the Ring. And I was streaming a few weeks ago, and someone said, set it to two ball. I went, yeah, okay, I will. The problem with it is, well, it's not a problem. It's just harder. It's harder to have enough momentum to knock that ball out. If there's not a ball there, it's just so much easier for the ball to go twice through there. Yeah, which is, you know, when A, I believe that they switched it. It originally was supposed to be two, but they realized that it had issues, so they just defaulted it back and said, I'm going to have to deal with it. Because of that, also, does yours have – I assume yours has the upgraded coils, right? I wouldn't have a clue. Wait, what? You don't have the upgraded coils in yours? I don't know. I bought a second hand. I don't know what it's got. Oh, my God. I'm looking at these things. How will I know if it's got upgraded coils? So I will send you – I'll send you a link. I won't do it right now. But the coils that came with the LE are much stronger. So you don't have an issue like that where the ball doesn't make it into the ring, etc. But it makes the game play way better. So that is another thing that would be improved. It would have better flipper longevity because all the games in this era had problems where you played for a decent amount of time. And the flippers became weak and it became hard to shoot the ball out of the game. Also, the right orbit tends to have a lot of issues with the ball not being able to stop by the post unless you bend it. And this is some other mods that, like, the GOAT has figured out how to make it more reliable. But, yeah, so, I mean, those weird mechanical stuff can be improved. And, you know, there's some stuff in the game that was never finished, like the troll sequence, or some of the things I think could probably be polished a little bit. But most importantly, when I think of a vault, what I want from a vault, which is probably wishful thinking, but I want a vault in the current system. I want the clips from the game that exists replaced with real clips from the movie. and I just picture my grail game of Lord of the Rings with those clips being from the movie and high quality audio with good looking high definition art. And it's just, I think that that would be, it already is the best game ever made and that would just take it to such another level that it would be amazing. And I think that I don't care what you charge for that. I'll cut off an arm to pay for it. But I mean, they should, you know, if it's be a Batman or a Kapow, whatever, and it just, if you make that eight, nine grand or whatever, but it's LCD and it has all the improvements like I've mentioned, or even some I haven't even thought of, like, yeah, 100%. It'd be way better than the original. and it just, you know, the Sam system games, any of them, if you redid them now, would be much better games because no, that doesn't even Sam. That's White Star. Even worse. Yeah, so. But that's, ultimately, that's probably the biggest hurdle of whether or not it will get vaulted, outside of, obviously, the price of the licensing, but I mean, you just, I mean, you saw what they did with Beals and other things that just makes the game more expensive. On a theme like this, I think paying an extra $1,000 for the theme that you want might be worth it. And I think that, just like Harry Potter, people will pay if the game is justified by it. But I think, yeah, being at White Star means it has to be completely rewritten, but I've talked to someone who might know about this, and they said it would be pretty easy to just do a straight copy like that. So, who knows? I'm hopeful. Well, I agree with you. I think the three main things for me are, first of all, if you want a Lord of the Rings right now, it can only be a used game. Now, whether it's home use only or it's been routed, whatever, it's still going to have wear and tear over the years. So new in box, wouldn't you just want a new in box Lord of the Rings, right? Fresh, everything looks great. Yeah, and you're paying a premium price for these used games. Correct. Which is, I don't want to do that. correct um but the other other things that were really deficient in the first one which would be addressed it would have to be addressed with a remake the art was low res so you'd you'd have to fix that and you could fix that the audio was also low res so they'd have to fix the audio but the the the niceties on top of that are that you would get all current components so I think it would be snappier to play. And also, when they do remakes, they always well, so far they have always done them, I guess, with LEDs. Was that the case with Iron Man? Yes. And Spider-Man. Right. So what they would do is they would purposely choose LEDs that would make the game pop. It's a bit of a dark game. You don't need the special boards to make them anti-ghosting. Right. So all that would make for a really nice mint Lord of the Rings. And you're right, I would get one too. Yeah. And also the other big thing, which I was really let down when they did Spider-Man, that they didn't do this, but of getting RGB inserts so that the game is communicated better. Yeah. Like, for Spider-Man, you don't know, is it a mode shot? Am I in a multiball shot? Is this a double, triple? Like, they didn't improve that at all in the remake, and I kind of wish that they did. But Lord of the Rings is the same way. It'd be nice to have different colors. So if you're running a mode and a multiball or something, something that's stacked, like, having different colors so you know what's going on. I mean, I know I have the deep knowledge to get through that, but, like, it shouldn't have to be like that. There's no reason you couldn't put color-changing stuff and then assign different colors for different things while they're going on. And then also with new lighting, imagine what they can do with the lighting. If you think of the Horde or something like that, what they could do when you're destroying the ring for light. It would look amazing. And plus that score and everything with high-definition audio and surround and the new systems. please come on Stern just call back Gary now and tell him you just gotta do it it's gonna happen eventually right? I hope it does it's one of their best games they've ever made and it's just one of those things where you just I don't know, I don't see how you just never go back to that well whether it's gonna happen eventually and eventually, you know, that license they're not going to have to be commanding a ton of money forever. So eventually there's nothing left. So they'll probably go down on their demands for the license maybe over time and they'll be more reasonable if they are ridiculous now. Who knows? But I'll hold out hope that that happens. So thank you, Austin, for your awesome email. It really is. When I read it, I went, Oh, that's a good conversation. He's going to eat that up, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. So well done. So the next email, not necessarily for comment, but somebody wrote in. So Jason, thank you, said, big fan of the podcast. I heard Ryan when he was on this week in Pinball Podcast saying he hadn't had much chance to play Batman 66 and didn't understand the rules. And Martin may have agreed on episode head-to-head, which I did. Anyway, he tried to make a tutorial with the latest code to show how amazing the game is. Hope it's useful. So we're going to link it to YouTube. The clip goes for about an hour and a half of Jason doing a tutorial for Batman 66. So go watch it, guys. The game is amazing. Is it? Yes, it is, Martin. I just haven't played it enough to understand its brilliance. I know it is because everyone's saying it is. I want to play it. It's in my top three. There you go. And so the next one is from Nick. This was in relation to the interview that we had with Keith where he was talking about his special one-handed flip, one-flipper slap save or whatever it is. I'm the one who brought that up. Yeah, I know. You did. Thank you. And I did say on the podcast that I would link a video. I had no intentions of doing that. But, Joe, if you can find the video, let me know, and I'll link it. Just look at the finals for Pemberg. He just puts it on display the entire time. There you go. It's a clinic. And I'll try and find a time when he does it. Anyway, he said, fantastic interview with Keith. Loved it. Funny, the one-handed slap save was talked about. I've been telling this to my friends locally for about a year now, and I practically never do a slap save anymore unless it's a very old machine, although flippers are really weak. It's definitely one of those tactical things I've changed in my game over the last year that's propelled me, along with other tactical changes up the ranks in Australia. You save maybe 90% of what you would have saved with a two-handed slap save, but 90% of the outcome is a tamed ball, as opposed to trading chaos for faster chaos and getting about 50% of it safe. I'd love this stuff to be discussed more there's not enough literature about these micro choices and defensive techniques I must be the only nerd watching the best replays move by move and often winding back to try to understand the decision making wow you already forgot about me that's what I do I watch those replays