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Episode 60 - Should We Go Dutch?

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·59m 54s·analyzed·Jul 11, 2019
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TL;DR

SWL S2E60: Personal balance, Wonka defense, industry updates on JJP/Spooky/Multimorphic.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb kick off Season 2 of Special When Lit Pinball Podcast from remote studios, discussing work-life balance in the pinball community and addressing criticism of Jersey Jack's Willy Wonka. Industry updates cover Jersey Jack's ongoing Wonka shipments, Spooky's new Fan Club model, and Multimorphic's P3 promotion at Southern Fried Gaming Expo. Bill defends game designers against what he perceives as unfair negative feedback, arguing the pinball community should appreciate games rather than focus on flaws.

Key Claims

  • Jersey Jack's Willy Wonka standard editions are reaching homes and locations, with limited editions on the production line

    high confidence · Steven Haberman, Jersey Jack Pinball weekly correspondent segment

  • Spooky Pinball can produce approximately 500 games per year with one production line and 19 full-time employees

    high confidence · Dr. John, Spooky Pinball weekly correspondent segment

  • Spooky's new Fan Club costs $25 for membership card and early purchase access to Scott Denise's next game

    high confidence · Dr. John correspondent segment describing Spooky Fan Club details

  • Joe Katz, lead programmer on Willy Wonka, chose deliberately not to sync video clips with audio, and this approach will not change in future updates

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell recounting direct Q&A with Joe Katz, Keith Johnson, and Eric Minier during Monday stream

  • Multimorphic is offering $1,000 discount on P3 machines purchased new-in-box at Southern Fried Gaming Expo if allowed to display at the show

    high confidence · Ryan Claytor, Multimorphic correspondent segment

  • Bill Webb has successfully acquired 96% of games he's stated he wanted to own, with only Addams Family and Cactus Canyon eluding him

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb direct conversation

  • Jersey Jack Pinball totally reworked The Hobbit after hearing public feedback

    medium confidence · Bill Webb opinion during discussion of designer responsiveness to feedback

  • Bill Webb believes the pinball community is in 'the riches of pinball since the 90s' with more titles coming out than in 20 years

    high confidence · Bill Webb direct statement during criticism of negative community sentiment

Notable Quotes

  • “When you're here, sometimes you're not here because you're on your phone and you're either reading about pinball or you're listening to a pinball podcast or you are texting somebody about pinball. When is this going to slow down?”

    Ken Cromwell (wife's concern)@ 2:30 — Opens episode with relatable personal tension between pinball passion and family relationships

  • “If you don't like that [video clip sync issue], don't buy the game. That's it.”

    Bill Webb@ 13:02 — Direct statement of Bill's frustration with negative community criticism

  • “You can't have everything. You don't have unlimited access to all the rights and the music and this and that and the other.”

    Bill Webb@ 13:41 — Defends design constraints and licensing realities in modern pinball

  • “It's not a liver. It's not a kidney. You're absolutely right. There are so many things that can make you worse off in life than an inner struggle that's going on with a pinball machine.”

    Ken Cromwell@ 19:25 — Provides perspective on overreacting to pinball game issues

  • “I would politely thank everybody for their support and giving me an opportunity to speak my mind on a weekly basis. And I would just walk away. I would just leave.”

    Bill Webb@ 23:55 — Expresses how he would exit pinball if constant negativity defined the hobby

  • “I think the difference is Pinball is not selling 10,000, 15,000 units when they go out the door, so there's a budget, and these companies are being run like businesses.”

    Bill Webb@ 20:37 — Provides business reality context for design constraints

  • “What I really miss about pinball is walking down to the local arcade, seeing the new game hit the street... You had no idea it was coming. There were no rumors. There was no internet.”

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonSteven HabermanpersonDr. JohnpersonRyan ClaytorpersonJoe KatzpersonKeith JohnsonpersonEric Minierperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_launch: Willy Wonka standard editions reaching customer homes and locations; limited editions now on production line; multiple units being shipped

    high · Steven Haberman: 'The standard editions are reaching homes and locations, and the limited editions are on the line.' Confirmed by Jack (JJP) on prior stream that 'a couple hundred' standard units shipped.

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Spooky Pinball operates with 19 full-time employees and one production line, capable of ~500 games per year; intentionally not scaling to multiple lines

    high · Dr. John: 'Spooky facility, with its 19 full-time employees and its one production line, can churn out about 500 games a year. Charlie does not want to become a big-time manufacturer in a large facility with multiple lines.'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Spooky introducing $25 Fan Club membership for early purchase access to Scott Denise's next game, with optional cosmetic add-ons (bling, trim, toys). Limited to available supply; general public orders open next day

    high · Dr. John detailed description of Fan Club structure: membership card, individual number, early purchase opportunity for Scott's new game plus optional bling options

  • ?

    code_update: Joe Katz confirms deliberately chose not to sync video clips with audio on Willy Wonka; approach will not change in future updates

    high · Ken Cromwell: 'Joe said, you know what, it's not like we didn't have the assets to do that. It was just my approach was not to do that.' When asked if it would change: 'it kind of is what it is right now.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Bill Webb expressing strong frustration with community criticism of game designers; defending design choices and manufacturer efforts against what he sees as excessive negativity

Topics

Work-life balance in pinball communityprimaryWilly Wonka code criticism and video/audio syncprimaryCommunity negativity toward new releasesprimaryJersey Jack Pinball production and shipping updatesprimarySpooky Pinball Fan Club membership modelprimaryMultimorphic P3 promotional pricingsecondaryDesigner intent and player feedback responsivenessprimaryPinball manufacturing constraints and business realitiessecondary

Sentiment

mixed(0.55)— Positive about pinball games and the community overall, but Bill expresses frustration with what he perceives as excessive negativity from some community members. Supportive tone toward designers and manufacturers. Defensive about game quality and design choices. Ken balances Bill's criticism with acknowledgment that criticism is valid and healthy debate is important to the podcast format.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.180

0:00
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Hey, what's going on, Pinball Land? Welcome to Season 2 of the special When Lit Pinball Podcast, Episode 60. I'm Ken Cromwell. I am Bill Webb. Actually, we're doing this remote today, so we're kicking off Season 2 from each other's personal podcasting studios.
0:30
What's going on with you, Bill? Nothing, man. It's been a crazy 14 days, man, since we really did a breakdown episode. But we can get into that later, though. Yeah, yeah. First, I want to thank everybody for supporting us for the first year. We had our one-year episode yesterday, or last week, rather, and that was Episode 59. It was fun to kind of revisit everything that we had accomplished in Season 1. The support we've gotten has been awesome, so thank you, everybody. But I also want to make sure that I'm telling everybody here that Season 2 gets better than Season 1 here, okay?
1:00
So the next year of Special Winlet Pinball Podcast, we plan to bring you surprisingly good content and keep up with the consistency. Yeah, I don't see how we're going to get any worse at it, so I think we're good. No, you can always go down, Bill. I don't know that, you know, we're not that bad where we can't go down. Well, at that point, the microphones go silent, brother. Yeah, that's true. That's true. There's always that option. But that would make me sad. I enjoy doing this every single week. Now, you'll notice, like, this episode in particular is coming out a couple days later than normally.
1:33
Because normally we would record on Monday, and then we would upload on a Tuesday. But it's just been so chaotic with life and then with pinball life. Because the pinball stuff that we've been getting ourselves into just seems like it doesn't slow down. And in fact, it's it's increasing. It's taking more time. In fact, I had a cover. My let me rephrase that. My wife had a conversation with me last night and sounds like a stern talking to. It was it was, you know, so this was the conversation. Essentially, you know, we're laying down watching TV, you know, in bed there.

Ken Cromwell@ 24:09 — Expresses nostalgia for pre-internet pinball discovery culture

  • “There's not a perfect pinball game. And I don't think that there could be a perfect pinball. And if there was a perfect pinball machine for me, guess what? It's not going to be a perfect machine for you.”

    Bill Webb@ 25:32 — Core argument that subjective preferences prevent universal satisfaction

    • Zach Manney
    person
    Scott Deniseperson
    Charlieperson
    Jerry Stellenbergperson
    Giovannaperson
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Multimorphiccompany
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    Willy Wonkagame
    Lexi Lightspeedgame
    The Hobbitgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Southern Fried Gaming Expoevent
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization

    high · Bill: 'I'm just so tired of hearing it' about video sync complaints; 'you can't buy that kind of passion from people' regarding Joe Katz; extensive monologue defending designers from unfair criticism

  • ?

    community_signal: Jersey Jack design team (Joe Katz, Keith Johnson, Eric Minier) appearing on Special When Lit stream to answer community questions live about Willy Wonka design decisions

    high · Ken: 'Joe Katz who is the lead programmer on Willy Wonka... comes in and he brings with him Keith Johnson... And then the hot and up-and-coming rookie, Eric Minier... These three guys come in. They sit down. Now, we're streaming the game, but these guys are on the podcast mics, and they're answering questions in chat.'

  • $

    market_signal: Multimorphic offering $1,000 discount on P3 new-in-box machines purchased at Southern Fried Gaming Expo if allowed to display at the show

    high · Ryan Claytor: 'And we're also running a promotion for people in the area to get a $1,000 discount on their machines if they purchase one new in box and allow us to have it set up at the show for other people to play.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Southern Fried Gaming Expo July 12-14, 2019 in Atlanta hosting Multimorphic P3 experience; Jerry Stellenberg and Zach Manney will be present

    high · Ryan Claytor: 'Southern Fried Gaming Expo taking place on July 12th through the 14th 2019 in Atlanta, Georgia at the Marriott Renaissance Waverly'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Jersey Jack continuing use of 27-inch screen across systems with magnetic mounting; camera used for both high scores and thematic WonkaVision gameplay integration

    high · Steven Haberman: 'They are very happy with their 27-inch screen and are continuing to use it across systems. They've mounted it a little bit differently using magnets. They're happy with their camera and are using it both for the high scores but also using it in theme with the WonkaVision picture.'

  • ?

    content_signal: Special When Lit Podcast hosts streaming Willy Wonka gameplay on Flippin' Out Pinball YouTube channel; multiple streams with designer appearances; hundreds of high scores submitted via Twitter integration

    high · Ken: 'we stream for the Flippin' Out Pinball channel... we stream the games on Mondays... we've been streaming it the last couple weeks on Zach Menny's Flippin' Out Pinball channel'; Steven Haberman mentions 'hundreds of high scores submitted via Twitter'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Discussion of licensing constraints, time/budget limitations, and impossibility of perfect universal appeal in modern pinball design; Bill emphasizes manufacturers face time/budget realities unlike classic era games

    high · Bill: 'You can't have everything. You don't have unlimited access to all the rights and the music'; 'Pinball is not selling 10,000, 15,000 units when they go out the door, so there's a budget, and these companies are being run like businesses.'

    • 2:08
    And I had my phone going and I was and she's like, who are you talking to? And I was like, well, I'm talking to so-and-so talking about what I'm talking about pinball. She's like, you know what? Listen, you've got your podcast and you do that. And I accept that you like that. And that's your passion about you're good to go. I'm like, OK. She's like, then you take on the streaming adventure because we stream for the Flippin' Out Pinball channel. She goes and then you're doing that and you're combining that in one night, which I guess is OK. But it's like when you're here, sometimes you're not here because you're on your phone and you're either reading about pinball or you're listening to a pinball podcast or you are texting somebody about pinball.
    2:41
    She's like, when is this going to slow down? And I'm like, listen, I could be doing a lot worse things as a 44-year-old male in the United States of America. I could have worse vices. So she's trying to get used to the level of commitment that I put into this. And I also have to be courteous and mindful of her wishes and her time too. So it's a delicate balancing act that I'm sure that you can also relate to with you, especially having a baby on the way. So I can only imagine what you go through over at the Bill Webb household.
    3:13
    Well, okay, so sidebar story, and we'll kind of get into this a little sooner than I was planning. The other night, you know, we streamed on Monday night, great night, but that was a long day and evening. Tuesday night, had somebody come look at Transformers that I had for sale. They were here almost two hours looking at the game, or like an hour and a half. You know, got the same stern talking to. So, yeah, almost on consecutive nights for us, right? Oh, yeah. So that was yesterday. Then the day I had somebody come and actually purchase said game, which was good.
    3:44
    Yeah. But then it was, you know, oh, I'm doing a podcast. Really? It was like three nights this week, you know. Right. Because our Monday where we double dipped the podcast in the stream, it just didn't work out Monday. We had so much going on. So now we're streaming here on Wednesday to upload on Thursday, which means we're only a few days off until episode 61. So, you know, and I want to be clear, like my wife's very supportive of the whole pinball thing. and she knows how much I enjoy it and she knows how much time I'm putting into it. But, you know, she wants to make sure she's keeping me in check here, too. So I can appreciate it. It keeps me grounded, too, because as much as we love pinball, I mean, it can't it can't
    4:18
    overcome your entire life. That is not conducive to anything that's going to be positive for any healthy relationship, in my opinion. But it's hard not to, you know, eat, sleep and breathe pinball, as Albert Elgar says, you know, Orbital Albert. Well, and here's I mean, here's a real issue. So we got into it, the podcasting a year ago, and it was you and I primarily talking. Then you meet more people in the hobby and other pinball media and other people in pinball. Suddenly you got like 15 different phone calls every week you're trying to make to keep up with everybody.
    4:50
    You are so right, man. And I'm thankful for that because we've met so many cool people. And then we've not met so many cool people. Let me rephrase that. We've not met. We're not the real b****holes. some of these people we've never met but we absolutely interact with on a weekly basis and uh it's so rewarding it's it's like my friends that i have outside of pinball uh are outnumbered by the friends that i have inside of pinball at this point and it's uh you know everybody's so
    5:20
    excited most of the time or or they've got a hard take on on something and you see a lot of it in social media and then everyone's got you know strong opinions and then people are commenting And, you know, there's that kind of buzz going on, and it's exciting, but it can be consuming. So I'm not telling anybody to back off of your hobby and your passion, but, you know, keep in mind here that there is everyday life that's going on as well. I think that's important to remember. You know what? I mean, here's what I did because I felt bad because I was selling Transformers for another game that she didn't approve of, but, you know, she was supportive enough.
    5:52
    You are wheeling and dealing lately, Bill. I have been doing a little bit. I like it. But to ask for forgiveness, you know, I was like, hey, how about we go for a guilt dinner? Guilt dinner is when I feel bad about something, so we go out to dinner and go get ice cream. Do you call it a guilt dinner? Does she know it's because you're guilty, or is that just your own term that you've coined for your own benefit? Oh, no, she coined it today. Oh, she coined it. She coined it. The guilt dinner. She was talking with her parents, and she's like, whenever Bill does something that he feels bad, we always go to dinner,
    6:23
    we get ice cream, we do something. So it's a guilt dinner, it's a guilt movie. I'm like, we don't go out for guilt dinner all the time, but, you know, that's all right. You know, God bless her. Good times. Well, we can talk about wheeling and dealing later, though. Yeah, for sure. Why don't we discuss a little bit about what's going on with the pinball news? Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz. This is Steven Haberman with your weekly update from Jersey Jack Pinball.
    6:55
    Jersey Jack has been in the news a lot lately. with the release of Willy Wonka. The standard editions are reaching homes and locations, and the limited editions are on the line. And we have that confirmed thanks to the Flippin' Out Pinball stream from last week. Live streams are also going up more often from various owners, as well as specials from the Special When Lit team on the Flippin' Out Pinball channel. One of the other things that we wanted to talk about was we talked with Giovanna, the communications specialist at Jersey Jack,
    7:27
    about the enhancements that we've seen from their company and what they're happy with and what they're expanding on. They are very happy with their 27-inch screen and are continuing to use it across systems. They've mounted it a little bit differently using magnets. They're happy with their camera and are using it both for the high scores but also using it in theme with the WonkaVision picture that is taken during the game of Wonka Pinball. And finally, they are still using the QR codes for high scores.
    7:59
    That is a QR code that appears after a game that you can scan with your smartphone camera and will allow you to post your high score to Twitter. Those Twitter high scores, there's been hundreds of high scores submitted via Twitter on their various games and have been coming since Hobbit. That's all for this week. Catch you next time. Hello again from Dr. John over in Australia with this week's Spooky Pinball update. The big news out of Spooky is all about the new Spooky Fan Club. This came about because the Spooky facility,
    8:30
    with its 19 full-time employees and its one production line, can churn out about 500 games a year. Charlie does not want to become a big-time manufacturer in a large facility with multiple lines, so the question is, what do they do about their next game? Charlie confirmed this will be Scott Denise's number two effort, which he has rated as brilliant, and I have no doubt it will be. In the past, 150 America's Most Haunted customers got first preference in purchasing the 300 Bob Zombies,
    9:01
    and a similar event occurred with Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. But if only spooky customers had access to Scott's new game, it would severely limit things for the company. So the idea is a fan club. $25 gets you membership into the fan club with a membership card and individual number. This will give you the opportunity for an early purchase buy-in of Scott's new game Plus some options for an additional bling such as trim and toys on the playfield
    9:32
    No limited edition no premium the one gameplay, but just some extra decorations on the game If you want to take that up and you remember go for it If you don't want to take it up you don't have to but then orders the next day will be opened up to the general public public. I'm not certain they're going to limit themselves to only 500 games, but if they did go over that, of course, it would take over a year for people to get their games. So numbers not announced, but if you're keen on getting in, email kt at spookypinball.com
    10:04
    and see if there's any spots left for the Fang Club loyalty card. That's it for this week. Catch you next week. Hello again from your special windlit Multimorphic correspondent I'm Ryan Claytor I mentioned a few segments ago that I'd like to occasionally Highlight public opportunities for you to play a P3 And today I'll be talking about a chance For you to experience Lexi Lightspeed The P3's first full featured Physical pinball game In Atlanta, Georgia At the Southern Fried Gaming Expo
    10:35
    As you likely surmised from that voiceover Jerry Stellenberg, Multimorphic company founder will be there for the entire show, but he'll also be... Hanging out with Zach Manney of Flippin' Out Pinball, who is a distributor for Multimorphic and the P3. On top of that, they're offering a pretty exciting deal for anyone interested in getting a P3 of their own. And we're also running a promotion for people in the area to get a $1,000 discount on their machines if they purchase one new in box and allow us to have it set up at the show for other people to play.
    11:07
    Hard to beat that. even if you're not sure about purchasing a P3 I'd recommend getting your hands on one this month at the Southern Fried Gaming Expo taking place on July 12th through the 14th 2019 in Atlanta, Georgia at the Marriott Renaissance Waverly you can find more information about the event at southernfriedgamingexpo.com this has been your weekly Multimorphic Update, I'm Ryan Claytor and I'll see you next week for another recurring segment our second Multimorphic Developer Highlight, until then stay innovative
    11:37
    All right, so always good hearing from our correspondent, Steve Haberman, covering Jersey Jack Pinball, Dr. John covering Spooky Pinball, and Ryan Claytor covering Multimorphic. Let's start with Wonka and Jersey Jack Pinball. So the buzz on the street is that these Wonkas are showing up. They're being delivered, the special edition. I keep saying special edition, right? And it's the standard edition. And the reason I call it special edition is because it's special to me. They are special. It's really wonderful. It is a kick. You know, it's a pretty awesome game, just even the standard edition.
    12:07
    It's fun. Now, we've been streaming it the last couple weeks on Zach Menny's Flippin' Out Pinball channel. You've heard us talk about this before. Myself and Bill, we stream the games on Mondays. I'm having a lot of fun playing Willy Wonka, man. It's not because I'm trying to make everybody buy it, because it might not appeal to everybody. I get it. But I encourage everybody that can jump on the game and play it. Well, you were kind of discussing with me earlier, Bill, and I don't know if you want to get into this a little bit. But you were addressing some of the – absolutely.
    12:40
    Yeah, let's stir the pot a little bit. You were addressing some of the criticisms that the game has taken on. And instead of me explaining it, I mean, do you want to just go ahead and take lead on this, and I'll follow your coattails if you don't mind. You know, one thing that's kind of – I've heard too many times in pinball in the last couple weeks is there's no video clips that sync up with the audio. and, you know, I'm just so tired of hearing it. Don't buy the game. That's it if you don't like that. But me personally, I think Joe Katz did an awesome job.
    13:12
    I think that if you were to implement it in certain ways, it could really come off like Lethal Weapon 3 with the, okay, okay, okay, okay. You know, and everyone hates Lethal Weapon 3 because of Joe Pesci in that game. Okay, so you're talking about like an annoying redundancy of the same clips running over and over. Is that your concern if that did sync up? Okay. or just literally hearing the same thing over and over and over and over and over. So if people aren't happy with the video clips not lining up, I mean, just realize where pinball has come from. You can't have everything.
    13:43
    You don't have unlimited access to all the rights and the music and this and that and the other. And I can guarantee you this. I think they did try to put everything they possibly could into this game. You know, talking with Joe, watching him blow that machine up on stream the other night. Yeah, he did a great job. You can't buy that kind of passion from people. And that's kind of the travesty that I think, that people don't get a chance to talk with him individually or any of the design team, for the most part, when they buy these games,
    14:15
    to understand the reasoning why certain things are the way they are. They just kind of bash it. So pinball negativity is kind of wearing a little thin these days for me. Yeah, I get it. I mean, there's two camps, it seems like. I mean, there's the camp of people that really don't really mind where everything is, asset-wise, audio-wise, clip-wise, playing-wise, et cetera. And then there's another group of people that really expect something specific out of the game and its finality with the code. And it is what it is. You're not going to make everybody happy. I get it.
    14:45
    I was happy that Joe Katz, because to set the – to give you an idea of the setup here, on Monday in studio so we have Joe Katz who is the lead programmer on Willy Wonka So he comes in and he brings with him Keith Johnson Everybody knows who Keith Johnson is, a legendary programmer, software engineer over at Jersey Jack Pinball. And then the hot and up-and-coming rookie, Eric Minier, who designed Pirates of the Caribbean, and he's been involved on their prior pinball machines as well.
    15:16
    These three guys come in. They sit down. Now, we're streaming the game, but these guys are on the podcast mics, and they're answering questions in chat. And let's give a shout-out to them for answering, I mean, pretty much every question they saw that I think that was asked of them. Well, it's a unique – yeah. Taking the time and being out there. Agreed. It's a very unique opportunity for somebody to kind of be able to ask a direct question, and it's live, and get a direct answer from the people that are behind the game. So, you know, we started it off asking Joe specifically if he thought we would see more video clips syncing with audio clips on future updates in the game.
    15:58
    And Joe said, you know what, it's not like we didn't have the assets to do that. It was just my approach was not to do that. And I asked if it would change. And he says, well, it kind of is what it is right now. So, I mean, that's the answer that some people were looking for, or at least having that question answered. And Joe answered it. So it was nice to kind of be able to put that behind for some people and then have some clarity moving forward in regards to the purchase decision. Now, it doesn't affect me. Where I can see that could be a benefit, I could also see it, to your point, hindering a little bit of what's going on with the full package.
    16:33
    I still like Wonka a lot, and I'm looking forward to owning the game. LEs are on the line, as Jack said two streams ago. He told us. He's like, hey, the LEs are on the line. And so if you guys are in on a walk of the the standard editions have been shipped a couple hundred of those. They switch everything over to the alleys. They get some of those out. And then I imagine they're going to go to the collector editions after that. And then it's just going to be filling orders as they go out. So that was a little nugget when we had Jack and Harry on the on the stream. But, you know what? They never stop. You know, I mean, they're still releasing was code.
    17:05
    I mean, they still keep updating all this stuff. and I guess the part that really makes me scratch my head is everyone bashed on Pirates of the Caribbean when it first came out. They're not going to buy it. Those people are buying it. So it's funny to see how things flip-flop. The hype train comes when the game is announced. People get them. The hype train dies. People complain. And not everybody, but it seems to be a certain cycle that you see.
    17:35
    midway through the run there's more hype for it because the code gets developed um towards the end of the run it gets you know another wind and then two three four five years down the road there's like another cycle of people that oh you got to get this game you know it's just crazy to me so in your general opinion of the game at this point if it is what it is is this a game that you still want to own yes and you know i mean you and i have talked about this yeah so whenever i tell you know i'd like to have a game the chances of it coming to fruition are 50 50 right i mean the
    18:10
    right situation actually no man every game you've ever said you wanted you either own or you're in the process of getting right now so you're at like a 96 clip of successful acquisition of games that you want i think the only one that's eluding you at this point is adam's family i don't know no we'll see about that one day but uh right now it's it's eluded you adam's family and cactus Jax. It's about the only things that I'm really missing. But yeah, and you know what? Honestly, as soon as I get a couple of games in on the new games that are coming in,
    18:42
    I plan on trying to get a Wonka, hopefully, before my son is born. But you know what? I just spent a good chunk of money on some games that I have coming in right now. You're a busy man. Busy man with pinball. Yes. So yeah, you know what I mean? Honestly, I just hope that people can see it's just a game and realize there's bigger problems in the world. If you want to spend three hours complaining about a video clip on a game you're not going to buy, go spend three hours at a homeless shelter giving out food and doing something
    19:13
    productive. Yeah. I was having that life moment the other day where a couple of things were going on in pinball that were just kind of irking me. And I was like, man, I'm like, who really cares? It's pinball. And then you always say it's not a liver. It's not a kidney. You're absolutely right. There are so many things that can make you worse off in life than an inner struggle that's going on with a pinball machine or that sort of thing. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, it makes absolutely zero difference in your general life moving forward. So I am happy to.
    19:45
    And especially in this game. You know, if it was a quality control issue, cracking cabinets, play fields that are ghosting and blowing out, or, you know, DMD starting on fire, that's obviously a very considering. The DMD starting on fire is not a good thing. Yeah, the display. But, you know, that's a qualifying event in my eyes to have something to complain about. But, you know, I mean, just certain things, you know, really, you know. Of course, there's things that I'd love to see in any game that I have. As we've heard from designers, they don't have these unlimited time cycles.
    20:19
    They don't have a 10-year time cycle on this stuff. And for good reasoning, they would take all 10 years, and they would have 50 different versions of the game, and it left anyway, and they still had an idea. Well, back in the day, they weren't working on 10-year timelines either. They were cranking out more games annually than I think that's being manufactured now. I think the difference is Pinball is not selling 10,000, 15,000 units when they go out the door, so there's a budget, and these companies are being run like businesses. And, you know, bang for your buck, I have not had any problem with any Jersey Jack pinball release that's ever come out.
    20:52
    And I think I said once before, I mean, I'd be perfectly content owning all five of their titles and having that as a collection, you know, for the short term. Well, yeah, I mean, honestly, when you're playing pinball, I mean, there's only a handful of games in my life that I can think of that were actually terrible games that I didn't like. Right. Other than that, it's still pinball. you know i mean the main premise of you know our group of hanging out is you know talking pinball hanging out having a good time playing pinball second um you know and i think that's what's kind of the roots of it so you know the code being not what everyone's flavor is i mean i think there's
    21:25
    bigger grapes in the world well i mean and in all fairness i can totally understand and that's what makes this kind of fun this is what makes our podcast uh even successful it's discussed it's discussing opinions and they're not always great opinions they're not always positive opinions So absolutely, people have the right to be disappointed or mad about something. What I'm just saying is like not letting it go and letting it eat at you. I think that's where it's not healthy. You know, be disappointed and make your decision with your wallet and reach out to these guys that are that are making these games. Right. I mean, I don't know of any anybody that I've met so far in pinball that is in the design process, whether it be a play field or, you know, programming or even artwork.
    22:06
    They're open to suggestions. Respectfully talk about what you think would be fun or what you'd like to see in a game. And we've seen companies make changes based on user feedback. So absolutely use your voice to your advantage in order to potentially coerce a game to go more your way. I mean, it's possible. It can happen. Especially Jersey Jack. We've seen them totally redo Hobbit when that went out to the public. That was a direct result to hearing feedback. So I don't know. I don't think this game warrants anybody freaking out and jumping in front of a train.
    22:40
    If you've got that much time to bag on this game, I really think that, dude, go take a walk. You are really not digging people bagging on the game. Are you taking a little personal, Bill? Pinball right now, I mean, we're in the riches of pinball since the 90s, right? Yeah, okay. And we have more titles coming out now than we have in 20 years. Decades. Yeah. Okay. People want to complain about one title or one code set on a game that they don't like.
    23:11
    Wait five minutes. There's going to be another game coming around the corner. I was going to say, it's not one game. People complain about every game that comes out. I mean, it's just what you do. It's like a game comes out, and you start complaining about things that you want to have in the game. I can see the fun aspect of that. Again, it's just harping on it and making it unhealthy for yourself. is when you start taking the fun out of the hobby and you immediately set yourself up to be disappointed on every single release, I don't know why you're still sticking around with pinball. It just sounds like you'd be a miserable person. It's just the way that I look at it.
    23:43
    I would leave pinball if every single time a game came out, I focused on all the flaws of the game and got myself all upset because I would have done this different and I would have done that different. If I did that every single release, man, I would politely thank everybody for their support and giving me an opportunity to speak my mind on a weekly basis. And I would just walk away. I would just leave. That's what I would do. Absolutely. That's just me. You know what I really miss about pinball is walking down to the local arcade,
    24:15
    seeing the new game hit the street, you know, T2. It went from a pinbot in the corner to a T2 to a Lethal Weapon 3. Right, right. Jurassic Park to an Addams Family to a Twilight Zone. And you had no idea it was coming. There were no rumors. There was no internet. There was no preview. There was no leaked images. I think the next game is going to be Jaws. You didn't care. It didn't matter. You saw the new game and that was it, dude. I mean, you were like a child on Christmas. Like, look at this. This thing's cool.
    24:47
    You can care if the, you know. You stick a 12-year-old in front of a cactus canyon. Are they going to know the code's incomplete? No. I don't think so. Yeah, but we're not 12-year-olds. A lot of us now consider ourselves, and it's not me, but seasoned veteran, like you're a professional critique. And that's fine. I mean, have your opinion. And I want to be very clear. I'm not in any way calling any one individual out at all on this. I'm just saying in general, if pinball just becomes a time for you to become negative on everything that's brought to public that's new,
    25:19
    I don't know how you can live with yourself within the hobby. Like, I think at that point you've got to be like, all right, probably this isn't for me. Because there's going to be something you can find in a flaw in every single game. In my opinion, there's not a perfect pinball game. And I don't think that there could be a perfect pinball. And if there was a perfect pinball machine for me, guess what? It's not going to be a perfect machine for you. It's not going to be a perfect machine for somebody else. So you're telling me this isn't one-size-fits-all? Yeah. There's just not. There's not a one-size-fits-all. Because even one-size-fits-all doesn't fit all.
    25:51
    It just doesn't. But, you know, and I'm not going to go too much longer on this. But, yeah, I mean, reading the forums and stuff and people venting about this kind of stuff, it's like, you know, playfield screwing up and cabinets cracking. I get that. That sucks. That is a completely legitimate gripe. And I would be absolutely flamed spending that kind of money on a product to have that kind of fault on it. And you know me. Oh, yeah. You can see the littlest flaw. That sucker's getting, you know, chopping. when when my ghostbusters came uh i think it was like 2016 maybe october 2016 something like that
    26:25
    september and um i had a later run but i remember like that that was around the time where stern just had like some ghosting issues going on with ghostbusters in general and i remember man just every single morning like waking up going downstairs like looking at every single insert i had taken pictures the night before and i was just waiting for the ghosting to come it never came man but like i freaked out over it for a couple months see and that's what You don't want to be in that position either. That's just not fun. I don't know. No, no. And that's definitely not fun. So, I mean, obviously you're hoping that the manufacturers have everything right and you don't have those issues.
    26:57
    Nothing is perfect. You know, even brand new cars have recalls. But, you know what, you just hope that they take care of you and everything works out in that aspect. Yeah, you know, I just hope people appreciate just playing pinball and having fun with it a little more. Okay. Well, fair enough. So, did it feel good getting that off your chest a little bit? Yeah, it did. because, you know, honestly, I was just doing a lot of reading in the last couple of days and, you know, the stream the other night. Reading, huh? Yeah, you know, just took a little offense to that because these guys put, you know,
    27:30
    and not just this team that was on Wonka. The team's over at Stern. The team's over at American Pinball. It's every company, every team. I'm sure they deal with this. They get their heads take off on every game, no matter what it seems like. Oh, interesting. Okay. Hard takes from Bill Webb tonight. All right. Good deal. Should we switch subjects, or you still got more to get off your chest here? I have not heard you be so involved in relaying an opinion on something in a long time.
    28:02
    We heard from Dr. John on Spooky Pinball, and Spooky Pinball, they are introducing the FANG Club, which to me kind of sounds kind of similar to like a Stern Insider Program. It gives you the opportunity to have early purchase on a machine, so it kind of bumps you to the head of the list. And it would have $25 annually or one-time fee, and you get your membership card, and you get some swag. But I think the most important thing here is that if you are looking to not miss out on a machine, because as Dr. John said, they're kind of set up to run 500 machines in a year, anything more,
    28:36
    and the production is going to take longer than a year, and that's not ideal. So do you find the Fan Club is something that's beneficial for somebody that is a spooky fan or a spooky supporter or a spooky customer? $25. Well, here, you know what? It doesn't limit people from buying their games if they're not in the Fan Club. So I say, you know, all the power to them. Yeah. I mean, they're getting on that early order list, right? So, like, hey, for this day, if you're part of the Fan Club, we're going to do 500 of Scott Denise's next game, let's just say, for an example. Fan Club members can get their orders in now.
    29:07
    And you have to think if you're not in the fan club, you are just thinking that whole day that every single hour that goes by, you are dropping further down on the list and on your wait time for you to get your pins increasing. So I kind of like where he's going with this. He's creating a sense of urgency, and he's allowing you for a minimal fee, I think, of $25. Who wouldn't pay $25 to jump the line in anything? I mean, I would do that waiting in line at the DMV. I'd pay $25 to jump out. So if I can pay $25 and be in the first 100 to get a game that Spooky Pinball is manufacturing,
    29:41
    personally, I'm down with it. I like the idea. Yeah. You know what? I mean, I don't think the fee is outrageous. I mean if they get all 500 people that jump in on that I mean that an extra a year for them Yeah that the thing Hopefully they can benefit from it and keep their little Well minus costs you know I don know Oh yeah Hopefully it doesn cost to make the Fan Club membership card That would kind of be counterproductive. I know Charlie's in printing, so he came over from the printing side. He knows what he's doing with that stuff.
    30:12
    He's printing money over at Spooky Pinball. They are with some of the games that they do. Good old Chuck. Right? Yeah. No, they're good people. You know what? I think the way they're structuring that is pretty cool. So, you know, hats off to them. Does Spooky ever set up, like, an additional line where they can run multiple titles? I mean, I know Chuck has said, listen, we're not trying to be stern. You know, we're comfortable doing our 500 games, 600 games a year, whatever it is. But at some point, do you think that he kind of gets it going where he's like, you know what? I've kind of outgrown my facility.
    30:44
    I've outgrown where I want to be as a company, and I'm ready to expand. Do you see him going to 750, 800 games in a year? Say within the next five years, can you see them doubling their output? You know what, that's a tough question, Ken. I don't really know about that. I mean, I know that they like where they're at right now, so I wouldn't see a benefit of that. And I think their games hold their value pretty decently. What if he franchised it? What if he sold and he could go ahead and you could have Spooky Pinball West
    31:14
    and it's like out of California, and now they've got two small companies that can each make 500 pins, and you've got a little franchise fee there, and now you're a pinball manufacturer. I mean, in the grand scheme of things, that sounds probably overly complicated, and he could probably just do that on his own if he wanted to. But, you know, I would imagine it kind of cuts down some shipping costs going from the Midwest to the West Coast. Maybe he opens up another one in the – what am I talking about, man? Pinball manufacturing. You've got to get one down, and that's it. But I'm always wondering if he is at some point, someone's going to move his cheese in regards to the production numbers.
    31:50
    And if he does, when would that happen? I guess you've got to kind of see where pinball is going to be going over the next five years. If it keeps increasing, does he increase? Does he expand? You know what, though? I think where they're at number-wise, though, I mean, it's kind of great. I mean, especially with how they've been growing as a company. I would like to see what happens in a couple of years. I mean, I think they could even charge more for some of the stuff that they're coming out with. Turn a bigger property, leave the numbers lower. It sounds like Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle 2 is getting some nice feedback.
    32:20
    So congratulations to those guys. I still need to jump on one and get more time. But the game itself, I know there's people that are getting their games and they're anxiously awaiting their pre-orders. And the game seems like it's a success for them. So can't go wrong there. when we think about Ryan Claytor now, our other correspondent, he's talking about Multimorphic. They are going to be bringing that. They'll have a presence there, right, over at the Southern Fried Gaming Expo, which is this weekend. Yeah, hanging out with Zach in the Flippin' Out booth.
    32:52
    Now, they talked about if you are willing to buy a game, and I think it's like $10,000, right, for that platform to get yourself in there. Sounds right. You get $1,000 off if you buy the game and let them unbox it and use it for the show. So you're getting a show game discount, but it's $1,000, I think. Yeah, so I hope they're able to move a couple of these units with that show game discount. I think if you're on the fence of grabbing one and you're in the area, I mean, that's not a bad opportunity for you to jump on one and save $1,000, right? No, and I mean, the other flip side of that is there's not a whole lot of Mountain Wild.
    33:25
    So, I mean, I think they're going to hold their value. I appreciate everything that Ryan's been contributing here. I'm really anxious to start hearing some more news about what's going to be happening, because I know he's got something that's coming up. Jerry's got something in his back pocket, and he's teased a little bit, saying it's going to be pretty massive in regards to evolution of mechs or something in a pinball machine. So I hope to hear something that's going to be a little bit more cutting edge coming up soon out of good old Jerry at Southern Fried Gaming Expo. But thank you guys very much. Now, in other news, and this is just kind of breaking today,
    33:56
    and for those of you that have followed the dutch pinball story uh you had a you had a company had barry and yapp has started this company they sold these big lebowski pinball machines they took these pre-orders uh arguably there was some money mismanagement that potentially could have happened in which case put them in a situation where the games that were manufactured by ara were being held hostage because they weren't able to pay the bills in order to complete the manufacturing process and it was up for grabs depending on who you listen to either ara had raised the price that
    34:32
    was too much for them and they they kind of went against an agreement that was in place with dutch pinball um but what happened was long story short it went to litigation and ara the manufacturer for dutch pinball won the lawsuit so now these 40 games that have been sitting uh over at ara without a home because they had nobody that had completed payment on them are now just sitting there. Now, if you want, Bill, I will go ahead and I will read you a post that hit Pinside today.
    35:04
    And it's from Pinside user Mr. 68. Oh, I'd love to hear it. Yeah, and he posts this. And it's a little lengthy, so I might go ahead and edit this. And it looks like it's a return. Kim Mitchell, I believe. This is a return email that he had sent out, that Kim had sent out, asking about what's going on with the Big Lebowskis. So this is kind of interesting. And it says, Dear Kim, it's been a while since our last update, for which I apologize. There have been a lot of things going on, and I'll try to address everything in this update below.
    35:34
    First of all, I'd like to address the health of my colleague and dear friend, Jap. As you all know, last year, Jap was diagnosed and treated for and then cured of cancer. But unfortunately, a couple months ago, a new scan showed that the disease was back. And the new scan, it shows multiple metastases. And the doctor indicated that there's nothing that they can do at this point. I won't go into details, but you all understand I was and I'm very devastated by this news. I can't really describe how much this sucks. Following this awful news, Yap and I discussed what we would do with Dutch Pinball and his involvement as an associate.
    36:05
    Now, we decided that it would be in Yap's best interest to step away from the company to avoid a complicated situation in the future. This paperwork for this was taken care of last month, and now Yop is no longer officially involved with Dutch Pinball. He goes on to say, I know you're all waiting to hear the verdict of the court case with ARA. Unfortunately, the judge ruled in favor of ARA, and now I can go on and on with the details why the judge decided this and how much this sucks, et cetera, but right now it is what it is. And besides going into the appeal process against his ruling, we can't do anything about it. I've discussed all the details with my attorney, and the time it would take to go into appeal.
    36:39
    He told me that it could easily take another year. Waiting another year after all this time is really too much for me right now. All the things that have happened and also the terrible news about Yop made me decide to try to do something else to figure out this debacle. So once again, I've tried to come up with a solution to settle things with ARA and finally got this over with. I contacted the person involved directly without attorneys. and after a long discussion and some negotiations we have for the first time in years, reached an agreement, and he puts an exclamation mark.
    37:09
    So he's like, reached an agreement. All right, you still ready? We're still on the ride here. So here we go. As you'll all agree, this is great news, but there are still some things to take care of, and before we can completely get out of the woods, the settlement we agreed upon means that we have to pay off ARA, and in return we'll receive everything Dutch Pinball related that ARA stored in their warehouse, a number of finished and unfinished games and the complete inventory of parts and that's again for the big lebowski pinball machine besides that the court case will be voided and then this means that
    37:40
    there's no more legal issues that prevent us from continuing our business and start building games again first the big lebowski pinball of course and hopefully many more beautiful games in the future one of the most important things to make dutch pinball viable business again is liquidity and the only way to get things moving again is to deliver early achiever games parallel to selling new games to customers. I know this means you still have to wait a bit longer, but it also means against all odds, you will receive your game. Along with my accountants, I'm working on a prognosis or a forecast on how long it'll take to do this, and our first calculations are very
    38:15
    positive. At this point, I can't give the exact planning yet, but as soon as I do, I'll communicate this. I understand that this is not the most ideal situation for early achievers, but otherwise, Dutch Pinball would certainly go bankrupt, which would inevitably have resulted in nobody getting a game. From now on, I will send out updates more regularly. I really am very sorry for the lack of updates the last couple months. I hope that what you've read above, that you have a little bit more understanding for this. Thanks for the continuing support and your incredible patience, signed Barry. So a couple things. One, I think it's important to address that very unfortunate to
    38:50
    hear a turn of events for Yop and his help. Yeah, that's terrible. Now, before you really consider what's going on from a business aspect, and it's hard to kind of look past some things, especially if you're personally invested, which I am not as far as the big Lebowski and any money out of my pocket. You never want to have to hear with somebody that's going and dealing with something as complicated as any type of cancer. Yeah, yeah. I mean, what it sounds like doesn't sound like it's a good prognosis. So, you know. Right. Once again, it just comes to, you know, there's bigger things to worry about.
    39:23
    But, you know, I mean, let's, you know, hope for the best for him and we can move forward. Absolutely. So Yop, he's taking care of his own, you know, personal health right now. He steps away from the business. He's out. So Barry's still there. He somehow does this side thing after litigation and figures something out with ARA. Now, there were times they could have negotiated this out in the past and it didn't work out. They tried to move manufacturing into China and that didn't work out. And, you know, people were wondering where money was going.
    39:54
    So I guess right now there still has to be a trust factor there. At least for me, looking at the story from the outside, you you want to hope for the best. But you have to, you know, kind of move forward with with caution, I would assume, because and I'm not saying that there isn't there's not a good track record there now. And when I was reading, it looks like the money that people had paid Cointaker went into a trust. So that money is there, which is nice because the games were never delivered. That money was never handed over from Cointaker, I guess, directly to Dutch Pinball, if I read that correctly.
    40:29
    And please, this is just something that kind of broke today, and I'm trying to get caught up to speed. So if I'm inaccurate here, it's obviously not intentional. Please go ahead and contact me or contact Special Win Lit Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. and let me know if I'm getting any of this wrong. And also, I'd like to invite Cointaker, if they'd like to come on the show and kind of explain this process, we'd love to have them come on and maybe do a 10-minute segment to kind of let everybody know what's going on with that because I think it's important. But I think you're right, Bill. I mean, there is absolutely a track record there that's not positive.
    41:02
    There were issues going on where a lot of people felt that there is some deception going on with reasons for delays. and with that money that's been out there for so long, were those funds, maybe not intentionally, but were those funds mismanaged? So moving forward to fuel more money into this in order for somebody to get games and for them to continue making games, it sounds like a great idea, but how many great ideas were out there that they had prior
    41:32
    that just ultimately didn't end up going anywhere? So I'm very interested to see how early achievers handle this situation in regards to do you go ahead and dump more money into this and hope for the best? Or what do you do? I'm glad I'm not in that situation. I know for a fact that you're a big Lebowski pinball fan, and there's nothing that you would like to see more than these big Lebowskis get delivered and hopefully that company get back to a startup and where they can manufacture games. But, man, it's just it's a volatile situation. There's a lot of there's a lot riding on the potential success.
    42:04
    And this is kind of out of nowhere again. You know, it's like, when does this die or when does this come to fruition? When do we get closure one way or another? I need some finality on it because it's been going on for years. You know what? I think for now, the only way anyone's going to buy a big Lebowski is literally if it is sitting in their possession. You know, they can physically see it and say, okay, there's a physical game here. Here's my $12,500 or $15,000. But even then, I mean, that's still a little scary in my eyes. And I love the game, don't get me wrong.
    42:36
    I would love to own one at some point. A lot of tumultuous territory here. Yeah, no, I couldn't agree more. So let's follow the story closely again. That story kind of broke today a few hours ago as I was perusing Pinside and kind of getting some feedback there. So interesting developments with the potential of Dutch Pinball. After litigation against them, going and working out a side deal with ARA in order to get the games that are in their possession, ARA's possession, potentially to customers, which would result in an increased price in order to get cash flow going and get the company moving again.
    43:11
    So we'll see what happens. And again, Cointaker, I don't know if you guys listen, but please reach out to us if you'd like to come on the show and kind of explain a little bit more in detail as to what's happening. Stern Pinball, I would assume they're getting ready to show something soon, right? Because it's getting to that point of the year where they have another release. Black Knight's been out for a little bit. Black Knight Sword of Rage. And here we are in the middle of July. And I would assume we're going to see two more titles, at least before the end of the year.
    43:42
    And this next title, you've got rumors flying all over the place and what it is and who coded it and who designed it and this, that, and the other thing. What do you think is going to happen, Bill? Have you heard anything? There's rumors of stuff next week, but, you know. There's rumors of stuff next week? Yeah. I did not hear this. Yeah, there was a rumor that Stern plans on dropping something next week. It was something I read somewhere, and I can't even quote where I read it from, so take it with two rings. Well, if it was on the Internet, it's absolutely true. Yes, everything is true on the Internet.
    44:13
    That's true. Everything's true on our podcast. Yes, please send all checks to Bill Webb. If you're listening to the podcast on the Internet, then it's true. But if you've downloaded it to your phone and you're listening to it offline, it's sketchy. It's not necessarily true. Exactly. It's got to be online. So, I mean, yeah, that's exciting, and we shall see in all honesty. I'm pretty pumped up. I'm ready. And I also want to say this with Stern Pinball. I've been playing a lot of Black Knight Sword of Rage Premium LE and I'm having a lot of fun with it, man. And it was one of those games again
    44:45
    where when it was released I was like yeah you know what It I can it not really something that I want And immediately I started in my own way kind of picking out negatives which made me feel better about not wanting to own it but having it here because we streamed it for flipping on pinball and it's it's still in the studio I've been coming downstairs I've been putting games on it here or there and I'm I'm getting addicted to Black Knight Sword of Rage so it's a fun game it's a fun shooting pin I I like it I like where the code's at I like the you know the design of the playfield
    45:15
    the upper play field was kind of lackluster to me for a while. But now I'm starting to learn its nuances and when I need to give a little nudge to kind of get that ball fed back to the flipper. And it's fun. It's an adrenaline rush pinball machine. I don't have very good games on it all the time, but when you get a good game on it and you get the game rolling, it's a good time. So for those of you that have not jumped on Black Knight Sword of Rage, I can't speak for the pro, man. I've not played the pro. I've looked at the pro, and the pro's not for me, I don't think, just because I kind of like the premium level.
    45:46
    That's kind of where I normally am with Stern pins. But I'm digging it, man. I'm digging the Black Knight Sword, Rach. I hope it sticks around here for a little bit longer. Absolutely. You know, I was pleasantly surprised when we played it. I mean, that's kind of like a – what was the other one that we were – Beatles. You know, you hear Beatles, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and then you play it, and you're pleasantly surprised. You know, it's more than what you're thinking in your head. And definitely Black Knight was the same way. Did you see American Pinball? I guess it started on 4th of July and it goes for, I don't know, four or five days.
    46:20
    They ran like a 10% off sale at American Pinball with a minimum purchase of $100. So I was thinking to myself, like, is that just on like accessories? Like if you wanted to get some side blades or some art blades and a power supply upgrade or something like that. Or can you just like call a manufacturer and be like, hey, I'm going to take one of those Oktoberfests. but I need like 750 bucks off because of the sale. Like I wasn't sure how that worked. And if that is how that worked, let's say it's 10% off their pinball machines.
    46:51
    How does that affect the distributors that are selling the games? Like, do they take the 750 hit off their top? Or is that something that comes off the bottom line for American pinball and the distributors still have the margins? I wasn't really sure how that worked out. I think what I'll do is I'll reach out to Zach, our distributor and see what that is. But I found it interesting because I can't recall a manufacturer running a percent off sale on a pinball machine ever.
    47:23
    Yeah, that doesn't scream a great idea in my mind. But, I mean, for accessories or whatever, absolutely. But on the machine, that doesn't fare well. And one that comes to mind is Baywatch. It's sitting five feet away from me. You know, I guess Sega couldn't give these things away back in the day. You know, as crazy as that. Yeah, but look now. I'm trying to get like a third Baywatch. I love Baywatch. It's a good pay-mob machine. Absolutely. If you've not gotten in front of a Baywatch, get in front of a Baywatch. But is Oktoberfest, in your opinion, has it fizzled out as far as like whatever sold is kind of sold?
    47:54
    Like has the hype train on Oktoberfest left the building? Or does it still have legs with Black Knight sort of rage out and now Wonka going into LE development? And then Stern, their next release has got to be right around the corner. You're hearing rumors of potentially next week them teasing something. So what does that do with Oktoberfest? Does that make American Pinball say, hey, you know what? Let's kind of not prioritize Oktoberfest at this point. Let's start rolling into our game number three. Is that kind of what they're doing? Or do they need to really push the hard sale with 10% off maybe and start getting the Oktoberfests shuttled out so that they can then comfortably transition to the next game?
    48:32
    You know, there's one situation that comes to mind with this. What did Waka mean for Pirates when it came out? When Pirates came out, it seemed to not have the following that they were hoping for. They pulled off the line. Suddenly, you know, the $9,500 game is $11,500. You know, the $12,500 game is $14,500. And people are asking these crazy prices for these games because they're not on the line. Everybody wants what they can't have. You know, I'd be curious to see what happens if they said tomorrow, you know, we're done building Oktoberfests.
    49:03
    Whether they hit the line again, we don't know. I don't know. I don't think that they would go up like Pirates. I mean, that's not a truly fair comparison. Well, that's what I was going to ask you. Do you think if they stopped Oktoberfest sales right now that the demand is there for it to become like a $10,000 pin and then they can put it back on the line and capitalize? I mean, is that a strategy that companies can do now going forward, test the market with initial sales, and if a release is poor, pull it off in the hopes that it gains traction to put it back on the line later at a higher price?
    49:34
    I mean, how does that work? No, no. You know, we'll just have to see how this goes. But it seems like any game that once the run stops instantly becomes slightly more popular. Are you ready to play a little Drain It or Save It? I am ready. It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Drain It or Save It is brought to you by Lermods.com, offering you custom quality playfield mods and lighting for your pinball machine. L-E-R-M-O-D-S
    50:06
    visit Lermods.com today. Alright Bill, so we play Drain It or Save It every single week for the most part. I'm going to bring up three topics, Bill and myself. We're going to Drain It if we don't agree with the topic or we're going to Save It if it's something that we support. And the first topic that we're discussing today is going to be remaking an existing pinball title. For instance, maybe you see multiple Guns N' Roses games coming out. Or like Superman. Will we see another Superman Do you like the idea of taking a theme that's already been covered in a pinball machine and then releasing an updated theme?
    50:40
    Jurassic Park, so to speak. Drain it or save it, Bill? You know, that's kind of a tough question. I will save it. Drain it or save it's very tough. It's supposed to be tough. It is tough. But you know what? I save it only because of the fact of Elvira. Okay. Yeah. Elvira is a good example of a theme that I don't mind seeing. They did one, two, and rumored a third. so yeah definitely well it's confirmed for third yeah all right so you're gonna save it i'm gonna save it too i i think especially popular titles if uh well and black knight sword
    51:13
    of rage you know it's coming up on the black knight uh legacy so i like the fact where you can now this is where it gets tricky right it's like you don't want to take an older game release it as a new title and then not have the game have as much in it as the old game because we should be progressing forward and not re-releasing a theme that has less to offer than the original spin does. Yeah, so in that case, that's not good. But yeah, for the short term here, I'm saving re-releasing pinball themes. Secondly, and this is one that you brought up, and it's going to be very, very controversial,
    51:46
    pinball machines that smell like smoke. Do you want to drain that, Bill? I would drain that. Would you like to save it? I'm going to drain that. Why don't you tell us a little bit about that because you were discussing that earlier. So a good friend of ours, Joe, lives out in Kansas. He went to go pick up a game and purchased said game, nice condition, and got in the van to leave. And he was choking on the smell of cigarette smoke that was literally embedded into this game. And he actually had to knock on the door and say, listen, I can't drive with this in the car.
    52:20
    I'm not going to put this in my house. So he loaded the game up, decided it smelled too smoky. and then proceeded to unload the game back on the seller? Absolutely. Wow, see? That's impressive. That's impressive right there. Yeah, and you know what? I mean, there's games that I've picked up that had... What did the seller say? The seller was like, okay, I'll take it back. I guess the seller had other purchasers in mind, or potential buyers, so it wasn't a big deal, and he was fine with it. But, yeah, you know, that's just crazy that people would still be smoking around these things.
    52:52
    you know it's like yeah let's get the game back up on the fourth floor the elevator is broken yes yeah hopefully that was not the case but uh yeah you're right and you know anyone that's got pinball machines hopefully you're not uh um smoking around these things in all honesty there's a years they're too big of an investment now so you're gonna drain pinball machines that smell like smoke or anything but yes okay i'm gonna save this bill and i'll tell you why i do not smoke cigarettes and uh it's just like i i don't feel good with smoke in my lungs and that sort of thing
    53:26
    and secondary smoke like i don't really like it but there's nothing better than waking up in the morning going downstairs and getting the smoke smell coming from a pinball machine for me it makes me feel like i'm in a bar like i'm younger i love just knowing that i'm not smoking the cigarettes but then i'm getting the benefits of the smell and stench of the cigarettes on the pinball machine so in this instance i'm just kidding man okay all right right i'm draining you know you're not an opinion right it's i'm gonna drain i'm gonna drain uh pinball machines
    53:58
    that that reek of any uh odor that's not pleasant to me so cigarette smoke being one of those um thirdly and we just kind of discussed this but this is going to be more of a prediction um maybe than than just general commentary but how about this bill the early achievers on big Lebowski will now eventually get their pinball machines, drain it or save it. I'm going to save it even though it kind of sucks because at least they get something out of it. Yeah, I think I got to save this too. And it's, man, we're all clinging on this to work out.
    54:29
    And I hope that it works out. And I hope that everybody lives happily ever after. You know, to your point, it's going to be unfortunate for those that have money in that just can't afford to put additional money in. But even past that, games have to get over here. So in that instance, we're in everybody's corner here to have this have a happy ending. So I am absolutely going to save early achievers getting their big Lebowski pins. And you know what? Let's hope that that production kicks up on this and maybe another company comes in and helps out and we're able to get these pins back on the line.
    55:00
    So, you know, I'm going to save it. So in this or in for this edition of Drain It or Save It, we had remaking existing pinball titles. We both went ahead and we saved it. we had pinball machines that smell like smoke we both drained it and then we had early achievers will they get their Big Lebowski's and we both say that we were in agreement on all three this week we're on the same page nice, nice, been a good week then it's been an interesting week, I'll tell you what and again as we wind the show down, we're going to wrap this up
    55:30
    we're again, season 2 episode 60, if you still have us on thanks for joining us on the ride here yes, thank you It's been a very, and I had a conversation with somebody about this that's also kind of heavily involved in pinball. It's been a very strange last seven or ten days in pinball overall. Just a weird buzz, weird feeling in the air. And I want to see, I'm very anxious to see how the summer plays out with these new games coming out. And, you know, what ultimately the fate is when final verdict comes down on Willy Wonka.
    56:04
    And what Stern's going to be coming up with next. and if American Pinball's got another game in their pocket that they're ready to kind of toss at us, if these early achievers get their big Lebowskis. You know, from a few weeks ago when there wasn't hardly anything for news, there's a lot to talk about in pinball, and this is what makes it fun. Always fun times, especially when lit. Thanks, everybody, for listening. Definitely. And, yeah, can't wait to get into a little bit more of the summer stuff. Yeah, man. You got anything else you want to add before we close this sucker down for Episode 60? No, man, that's it on my end.
    56:34
    I think that that's a wrap. I want to apologize for everybody for our release schedule being delayed by a couple days. I want to apologize to our correspondents because I like to get their newsworthy information out on those Tuesdays. So that was just our fault, just with scheduling. It was a little burdensome for us to try to fit everything in. We'll be back on schedule next week as we get the podcast out on Tuesday. If you've got a question or a comment for the show, you can contact us at specialwhenlitpinballpodcasts at gmail.com. You can go to Facebook. We're there, Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. And if you want to see us stream pinball machines on a weekly basis and talk to us in chat and we've got a live call-in segment, you can see us stream pinball at FlipNOutPinball, all one word, FlipNOutPinball on Twitch.
    57:16
    And follow the channel. When we go live, you'll be notified and come on in and have a good time. We're just hanging out with a lot of the pinball podcasters and media all in chat. I'll tell you what. When we started the streaming, it was something that I thought was just going to be something kind of casual that we would do and have some fun. I'm really getting the bug on the streaming right now. And I'll tell you what I want to do, man, is I want to make that channel incredible. And I've got a lot of ideas. And I know we've talked about some ideas. We've talked about some ideas with Zach. And that Flippin' Out Pinball channel is ready to rock and roll.
    57:47
    So it's been pretty well received so far. I was looking at some stats. And, you know, as far as the channel ranks within the pinball rankings, a little surprised that we're where we're at. I'll put it to you that way. But every week we've got a lot of fun, faithful viewers. And the one thing I like about the people that are in chat, you know, it's all people that, like, I feel comfortable associating with. Like, I look forward to those people and talking to those people every single week. Like, I'm glad that those are the people that support what we're doing. And it's just a fun time.
    58:18
    So I invite you, check out all the pinball streaming. Get an idea. Go to these different channels and see the different approaches. And you'll have appreciation for all these guys because it's a lot more work than I had anticipated to not only set up a stream but to run a stream and to really be communicative in chat with everybody that's in there. It's fun. It's a challenge. It's something that we're taking on head on, and the sky's the limit because we're motivated to really rock it out. So fun. Every single Monday and sometimes Tuesdays have been great.
    58:49
    So, hey, so you know what? Follow us and not blindly, but don't follow us. Come experience these things with us. You're experiencing us talking pinball on the podcast. Experience us having some fun on a Monday night. I mean, Monday night's a pretty casual night for anybody, I would assume. Just stop in. Even if it's for 20 minutes, come in and say hello. Let us know you're there. We just love it, man. Yeah, it's a great time. It's a great time catching up with everybody, too. And again, I want to thank Zach and Nicole Mennie for giving us the opportunity to stream the new games.
    59:21
    It's always fun times. Absolutely. All right. Now, I also want to thank Robin Kim at LearnMods.com for sponsoring our Drain It or Save It segment. Go over there, check out mods, guys. I'm telling you what. And at Wonka Mods, go over there and check it out. We've got a coupon code set up for you over there. It's SWL10 for Special One Lit 10. SWL10. Get 10% off your purchase and check out. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Everybody, have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.