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The Pinball Show Ep 36: Pinball Is A Fickle, Feather-Ruffling Beast

The Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 16m·analyzed·Nov 2, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Episode covers manufacturer updates, Slow Mo Guys JJP collab insights, and clear coat/rubber material debates.

Summary

The Pinball Show Episode 36 features industry news from Stern, Jersey Jack, American Pinball, and Chicago Gaming Company, with extensive discussion of a Slow Mo Guys video featuring a Jersey Jack Willy Wonka machine that revealed mechanical insights valuable to designers. The hosts debate flipper rubber types, clear coat thickness and pooling issues across manufacturers, and discuss Spooky's potential TNA 2.0 revival and new designer announcement.

Key Claims

  • Stern has a backlog of over 5,000 games awaiting production

    high confidence · Craig Bobby (Stern correspondent) citing Gary Stern's comments to WGN 720 Radio regarding recent boom in home entertainment purchases driving backlog

  • Jersey Jack Guns N' Roses experiencing playfield clear coat pooling issues on some units shipped with washers under posts

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg (JJP correspondent) reporting playfield issues, though limited to small number so far

  • Spooky Pinball TNA sold 550 units total, most successful game after Rick and Morty, with approximately half placed on location

    high confidence · Dennis and Zach discussing Charlie Emery's comments from Super Awesome Pinball Show interview

  • New Spooky Pinball game designer announcement coming with April-May-June timeline for new title reveal

    medium confidence · Charlie Emery mentioned upcoming new designer and April-May-June window in Super Awesome Pinball Show interview, per hosts

  • Ken Cromwell (Jersey Jack employee) originated and coordinated the Slow Mo Guys Willy Wonka collaboration

    high confidence · Zach confirming Ken Cromwell pitched and coordinated the deal as part of his new employee role at JJP

  • Jersey Jack's slow motion video analysis of Willy Wonka actually helped JJP engineers identify areas to tweak design procedures

    medium confidence · Zach stating he confirmed with JJP that seeing mechanisms in slow motion helped them modify procedures and methods

  • Spooky Pinball uses thinner clear coat than competitors to avoid glossy surface that can highlight imperfections

    high confidence · Charlie Emery (Spooky Pinball) quoted on Super Awesome Pinball Show saying everybody wants 2020 glossy glass-like surfaces, and explaining Spooky uses thinner coats

  • TNA 2.0 will cost more than original TNA 1.0

    medium confidence · Dennis recalling from earlier discussions with Alice Cooper when TNA 2.0 was being discussed, noting planned price increase

Notable Quotes

  • “The reason that I wanted to work with Jersey Jack is because they make really great, very unique, and special pinball machines. Each one they do is a real event. It's not like they're just churning them out.”

    Slash (Guns N' Roses) @ ~20:00 — Potential criticism of Stern's high-volume production approach; Forbes article on GNR release

  • “Clear coat was very, very thin on your older 90s games.”

    Charlie Emery (Spooky Pinball) @ ~60:00 — Industry expert explaining clear coat thickness standards across manufacturing eras and current pooling issues

  • “Everybody wants these really glossy glass-like surfaces, and you get that with a lot of clear.”

    Charlie Emery (Spooky Pinball) @ ~60:30 — Designer perspective on aesthetic trends driving manufacturing decisions and potential quality tradeoffs

  • “The flipper bat actually hits the ball twice.”

    Slow Mo Guys host (in video) @ ~35:00 — Novel mechanical observation about flipper interaction revealed by high-speed videography

  • “I'm just simply amazed that these machines even function. After seeing this bullet fly around, this piece of hard steel fly around everywhere at high speeds and very high impact.”

    Zach Minney @ ~50:00 — Host expressing appreciation for mechanical complexity revealed by slow-motion analysis

  • “I don't know if that's really the answer or not. But clearly, Charlie and Scott Denise are having fun coming up with the concepts.”

    Dennis Creasel @ ~54:00 — Skepticism about TNA 2.0 market demand but acknowledgment of designer engagement

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanySpooky PinballcompanyChicago Gaming CompanycompanyAmerican PinballcompanyKen CromwellpersonChristopher Franchiperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball Hot Wheels sponsorship and sweepstakes (Nov 8-14) targeting cross-market collector audience expansion beyond traditional pinball community

    medium · Brian Kuzner reporting American Pinball sponsoring Hot Wheels Legends Tour with sweepstakes for Hot Wheels machine; notes final details being worked out

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Spooky Pinball deliberately using thinner clear coat strategy vs. industry trend toward glossy surfaces, potentially protecting against pooling but sacrificing aesthetic shine

    high · Charlie Emery explained Spooky surfaces may not look as shiny as competitors due to thinner application strategy; corroborated by Dennis noting TNA had 100 units with bad clear coat

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Spooky Pinball considering TNA 2.0 small-run revival (estimated 100 units) with potential physical tweaks and cosmetic updates despite identical gameplay layout

    medium · Hosts discussing Charlie Emery comments on TNA 2.0 plans; Dennis noting TNA 2.0 will cost more than original; uncertain about market demand given current used price decline

  • $

    market_signal: Stern Pinball achieving record-setting backlog of 5,000+ units driven by home entertainment purchasing surge during unspecified period (likely pandemic era)

    high · Gary Stern commenting to WGN 720 Radio on sharp upward spike in home entertainment purchases; Avengers Infinity Quest December run announced to address backlog

  • $

    market_signal: Jersey Jack Pinball's Ken Cromwell successfully pitched and executed Slow Mo Guys collaboration reaching 14M+ subscribers, representing significant brand exposure beyond pinball enthusiast community

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.229

0:00
Warning, the following episode contains adult language and screaming goats. Listener discretion is advised.
0:10
The Pinball Network is online. Launching, The Pinball Show. Pinball is a game of skill. For some, it's a passion and a lifestyle.
0:26
It's time for The Pinball Show. It's pinball with personality Ladies and gentlemen, this is a little podcast we like to call The Pinball Show We're in episode 36 and we are your hosts Zach Minney and Dennis Creasel from the Eclectic Gamers Podcast How's it going Dennis? It's going good, we're finally back to central standard time I'm still so confused, so everybody's together? Yep, we're all unified for a little while Until when? until daylight savings time shit happy monday happy november everybody do you like november generally speaking yeah sure are you a thanksgiving kind of fella i like food so yeah oh you have a very traditional we'll get into this more as the month uh continues but do you have a very traditional type of food collection that you eat for thanksgiving i suppose yeah yeah it falls in the pretty stereotypical categories. Okay, mine as well. Maybe we'll do an Orby Top Three Favorite Thanksgiving Dishes at some point.
1:34
Yeah, that sounds very pinball-y. I think dressing is very underrated, personally. You probably like those candy yams. No, I don't eat those. Do you not? No. Finally, we agree on something. I saw you go against my pumpkin choice in the pumpkin contest on Facebook by Chris Grosvenor oh yeah well you of course went with the predictable oh I like this theme choice look I tried to convince myself to go with the exorcist but I just thought the quality and the shading and stuff the depth of those cuts on that pumpkin for Beetlejuice thought they were there they were both well done but I disagree I think that the exorcist carving showed superior knife skill.

  • Chicago Gaming Company next release (before end of 2020) will likely be Cactus Canyon remake, not Theater of Magic

    medium confidence · Matt Morrison (CGC correspondent) citing Christopher Franchi stating CGC game coming before year-end, squashing Theater of Magic rumor

    • Charlie Emery
    person
    Slashperson
    Slow Mo Guysorganization
    The Pinball Showorganization
    Zach Minneyperson
    Dennis Creaselperson
    Scott Deniseperson
    Willy Wonka (Jersey Jack)game
    Guns N' Roses (Jersey Jack)game
    Rick and Morty (Spooky)game
    The Night Shift (Spooky)game
    Jurassic Park (Stern)game
    Cactus Canyongame

    high · Zach confirmed Ken originated pitch and coordination; video went viral with unprecedented mechanical insight relevance to industry designers

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ken Cromwell established at Jersey Jack Pinball in marketing/business development role, successfully executing high-profile influencer partnerships

    high · Zach confirming Ken reached out proactively, pitched Slow Mo Guys idea, coordinated collaboration; potential Employee of Year candidate

  • ?

    product_strategy: Chicago Gaming Company next release (Cactus Canyon remake) will include enhanced code, custom topper, updated display, and other CGC enhancements to justify remake strategy

    medium · Matt Morrison citing Christopher Franchi dismissing Theater of Magic rumor and pointing to Cactus Canyon with multiple enhancement features

  • ?

    product_strategy: Spooky Pinball planning new designer announcement with April-May-June timeline for new game reveal, following Rick and Morty production end early 2021

    medium · Charlie Emery mentioned April-May-June window for new game in Super Awesome Pinball Show interview per hosts; unclear if this accommodates TNA 2.0 small run

  • ?

    product_concern: Playfield clear coat pooling issues affecting multiple manufacturers (Jersey Jack GNR, referenced TNA, and broader industry pattern) traced to thick application process rather than material quality

    high · Charlie Emery (Spooky) explained clear coat thickness standards, confirmed thick coats create glossy aesthetic but risk pooling; Ken Rudberg reported GNR shipping with washers under posts

  • ?

    technology_signal: High-speed video analysis revealing previously invisible mechanical behaviors (flipper double-hit, ball airborne frequency, rubber deformation) with potential design optimization implications

    high · Jersey Jack confirmed Slow Mo Guys video helped engineers modify procedures; hosts discussed air ball frequency, flipper-ball interaction, and rubber rippling effects visible only in slow motion

    • 2:20
    It was a tough call. I don't know who ended up winning. Perhaps we are all winners. Are we? I don't know. How many people got tattoos? We did have a couple people that have voiced strong interest in winning that free Stern Pinball Star Wars Limited Edition topper by tattooing...
    2:40
    We need to talk to Ray Day. But yeah, a couple people have voiced a lot of interest. And the more serious interest they evoke, the more you are nervous and neurotic and troubled by this whole thing. Well, I just think it's pretty tacky.
    3:01
    Nothing screams tacky like Zach's contests, right? This one, not all your contests are bad, but this one is pretty stupid. A lot of people are interested, so we'll see. Well, they say. I mean, you'd have had more interest if you let them have their choice of a Stern Pro. I guarantee you'd get tattoos then. Hey, baby steps. Dennis, baby steps. We'll get there. A $750 topper is a big step. Yeah, but they know how much those things cost to make. They still cost a lot for us to buy as dealers. They don't care. Speaking of interest and body parts and flatulence, you appeared on a podcast as a guest this last week. I appear on a lot of things. I don't know why I do.
    3:46
    Why is that? I don't know. We were both on Loser Kids a few weeks ago, and I'm just like, I don't know why people want to hear more from me on anything, quite frankly. The Slam Tilt Podcast did their Clusterbuck third episode of the Clusterbuck. Third one, yeah. I don't think I was involved with their first one. Season of the Witch, I believe, or something like that. Yeah, yeah, that's a Halloween 3 reference. And there was a lot of people on there. There was. Mr. Christopher Franchi and Dr. Christian Penn from the Super Awesome Pinball Show was on. Scott and Josh from the Loser Kids were on. Steph from Riptide was on. Mrs. Penn from Mrs. Penn's Pinball Podcast was on. Zach, Slam Tilt Zach was on. The more technical, flat Zach in pinball was on. He's very smart, I can tell. He's very technical, more so than myself. His emotion's a bit flatter than myself. Well, he may just not choose to convey the emotion on podcast. Oh, I see. I would not presume that someone's podcast persona necessitates that that's how they act in a normal interaction. I'm going to go out on a limb and say he's kind of like that in real life. Never met the guy. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that I think he's probably funnier than you.
    5:04
    You take that back. No, I won't. No takesies backs. Well, guess what? It's on. You hear that, Zach Edge? I know it's AJ. It's a joke because I'm fucking funny. Comedy showdown. Yeah, I'm sure all the listeners are just crashing the curbs right now laughing hysterically at your great joke. I can say I wasn't laughing too much listening to that podcast. But where's my invite? We talked about a lot of serious topics. We talked about those CPR. Oh, yeah, the conversion kits.
    5:36
    Maybe I'll get invited one day. Maybe. Just one day. No. Maybe. Yeah, sure. I don't know. When are you going to have Bruce on? I figure Bruce can come on next time you're on vacation or something like that. That might be December then. But man, that guy, Bruce, you are as wrong as you are right on that show.
    5:58
    He's batting about a 50-50 there. Yeah, I could see that. I actually disagree a lot with Bruce's game opinions. I'm much, much, much more aligned with Ron's thinking on it. I think Bruce disagrees with his own opinions at times. That does happen. It has been confirmed. We have the science to show it. Yeah, hashtag bad girls. All right, Dennis, let's talk about some pinball news. But the best way to do that is to kick it over to our correspondents to see what they have dug up. Oh, I hope they had good shovels.
    6:29
    Oh, side note, listener. At the end of the show, we had... I like the sound of it. We had... That was my shovel. Dr. John... Digging the grave. He was kind enough to do an interview with Damien at Haggis Pinball, and we're going to put that at the end of the episode. So if you would like a deeper dive into what's going on at Haggis Pinball, tune in at the end of the show for that. Thanks again, Dr. John. It's time for TPN Industry News.
    6:59
    Yes, the waiting is the hardest part. And more new code for Jurassic Park. Hey, everyone. Craig here again. and the pinball show's Stern News correspondent. Waiting for your new Stern pinball machine? Well, you're not alone, as Stern continues to set their own internal sales records these days, with recent releases of Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles and the Avengers Infinity Quest leading the charge. Courtesy of WGN 720 Radio in Chicago, Gary Stern himself recently commented that the recent boom in home entertainment type purchases has meant a sharp upward spike for pinball sales as well. In fact, Gary commented that business was so good that Stern has a current backlog of over 5,000 games whose eager owners are chomping at the bit for them to be built. Hoping for your new Avengers Infinity Quest Premium or Pro before Christmas? Well, with the October run now completed, the last run of this exciting title in 2020 will now be happening in December, meaning many early buyers will have to be patient and wait for a happy new year in 2021 until they see their shiny new toys. And just when you thought it was safe to put away your USB stick for a while, new code V1.03 has dropped for Jurassic Park. This new code update includes Stern's DJ Mixer mode, additional polish, game adjustments, system updates, and bug fixes. That's all for this week. For the Pinball Show, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side.
    8:39
    Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. While there has been an overwhelmingly positive response to Jersey Jack's new Guns N' Roses release, a couple of issues have recently cropped up. Playfield issues are rearing their ugly head, and some owners are experiencing clear coat pooling under playfield posts, and some are concerned about the longevity of their playfields. So far this seems to be limited to a small number of playfields, but some owners are saying that their games are being shipped with washers under the posts from the factory. We'll no doubt hear more about the extent of this issue in the upcoming weeks.
    9:19
    Slash's involvement with the Guns N' Roses release has ensured that this pin has had a particularly high profile. The spotlight on pinball has not burned as bright for a long time and this is reflected in the number of media articles that have recently been released talking about the game On October 27th, Forbes released an online article about the release of the new machine They talked to Slash, the game's designer Eric Menyer and Jersey Jack co-owners Brett and Leonard Abbas It's a good read with an interesting comment from Slash He said, quote The reason that I wanted to work with Jersey Jack is because they make really great, very unique, and special pinball machines. Each one they do is a real event. It's not like they're just churning them out, you know? Unquote. Is this Slash throwing a little shade Stern's way? Hard to tell. But I don't think Slash has ever been afraid to speak his mind. For the Pinball Show, this has been Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball update. American Pinball is sponsoring the Hot Wheels Legends Tour. And the Legends Tour is a great opportunity to introduce the pinball machine to a whole new Hot Wheels collector audience. There's going to be a sweepstakes to give away a Hot Wheels machine. And the final details are being worked on. But the sweepstakes will run Sunday, November 8th until the grand finale on November 14th. Also, there's been a lot of talk with playfield issues, but American Pinball has no reported playfield issues right now. Look for additional info on the American Pinball Facebook page. Hope everyone has a great week, has fun playing pinball. For the Pinball Show, this is Brian Kuzner.
    11:03
    Hey, Matt Morrison here with your Chicago Gaming Company update for the week. Christopher Franchi, co-host of the Super Awesome Pinball Show and Pinball Art Extraordinaire, said we should see the next CGC game before the end of the year. With GNR and Avengers and most new in-box pinball machines on backorder, CGC could sneak in and steal some new in-box pinball dollars. Chris also squashed the rumor that Theater of Magic was the next remake. Most signs still point to Cactus Canyon with enhanced code, topper, updated display, and the rest of the CGC enhancements. That's going to wrap it up for this week. Back to you guys. well you know what i always say unless you always say it and that is it's always great to hear from the correspondence sack well sometimes it is it always is it always is we love each and every one of them do you no the slow-mo guys what do you know about the slow-mo guys i was uh i don't follow their channel but i was familiar with it as many people are familiar with it because they have almost, I believe, 14 million subscribers. It is a YouTube channel dedicated to showing how things function in very, very slow motion. Wow. What a synopsis. It's almost like you're a podcaster. I was trained. I was trained by the best. Not you. Don? I self-trained. Self-trained? I was tooting my own horn. Toot, toot. The Slow Mo Guys is a huge, huge, huge influencer and video-based group that, yeah, Dennis said it the best. They got their hands on a Willy Wonka pinball machine by Jersey Jack Pinball. Yeah, provided by the company. So kudos to Jersey Jack for reaching out of the pinball bubble into some real influencers. I do know that the idea was originated, it was pitched, it was all coordinated by new employee Ken Cromwell. That was one of his big things. I remember just him being a friend of ours when I was speaking with him when he got the gig. He told me, hey, I'm reaching out to these guys. Have you ever seen their videos? I think this would be really cool. So nicely, nicely done there. Ken's doing it. Might get that Employee of the Year award if he keeps this up. Might get a bonus if it sells them more pinball machines. I wanted to play Willy Wonka after seeing the video. Did you want to play it in slow motion? It actually made me want one of those little anteater video cameras. that is cool isn't it i love the shots underneath the play field showing the the mechanics yeah there's no even though i know how all that stuff works because as you know many people in pinball you'll understand how solenoid functions and stuff it's just really cool to see it like the breakdown about how quickly the pop bumpers are actually working and you're seeing it go in slow motion i don't i just think it was cool it can hit and go back and forth eight times in one second kind of thing now you said we know how they function how they work that is true But I don't think there's any argument, Dennis, that we have gained a huge, a much bigger understanding of these mechanisms by seeing it in this way. And I think that probably 99%, if not 100% of people in this industry have never been able to see mechanisms function in this manner. Yeah, that's probably true. I mean, there's obviously a big leap between understanding that solenoid is working with magnetism and it makes something move and then actually seeing how that truly interacts in real time with the ball in a way that you can. Well, you know, I think kind of where you're going with this is, for example, some have seen how the ball interacts with the flipper, for example, and how that actually how often perhaps the ball is being touched by the flipper. Yeah, to the naked eye. Otherwise, these engineers and designers are relying solely upon the naked eye, but I think so much information was given in that one video that's easily going to hit millions of views, by the way. There's so much information in there that I think, and I did confirm with Jersey Jack Pinball, they said seeing it in that way actually did help them. They're now able to go back and look and maybe even tweak some of the procedures and methods that they use when designing pinball machines. That was surprising to me. Yeah, that's interesting. I don't know how easy it will be necessarily to make modifications, but knowledge is power after all. Well, and I've seen, I know that when some people are tuning in their game, you see this on pin side a lot, especially over the last couple of years, Dennis, where some things isn't working right or the shot's not working right. And I know Chuck Wirt with TPN is straight down the middle. He's been a big proponent of this, and he taught me today. He was like, just if it doesn't seem right or something's off, put your slow-motion cell phone cam, hook that up, and record some video, and you'll be able to pinpoint at a greater detail what is going on with that particular shot or mechanism that you're having trouble with. And this is tackling that to a really deeper level. But it was just very much entertaining. One of the things that just stunned me, Dennis, was that damn flipper rubber. The host said that the flipper, I guess we'll call it a bat, the flipper bat actually hits the ball twice.
    16:16
    I don't know if that's true. I think maybe that was just him and how he plays and flaps the bats. but well uh given the speed of the solenoid if i don't think the i don't think most humans would be able to depress the button fast enough to stop a second hit so that makes i'd have to watch the segment again to see that yeah i see what you're saying because it's moving at the speed that the electricity allows it to move the thing is is that in a way it i would say it's moot because both place hits on the ball are still moving in the same exact direction so it's it's the equivalent of one hit anyway uh yeah i could make sense to you yeah i could see it if it's hitting twice maybe if the ball as it's coming the ball is coming at such a speed that it stops the bat enough but it doesn't have it still overpowers the the power in that coil and you get a small bounce from that rubber and then when the when the bat goes back to hit the ball you get that second subsequent right i think the issue is and you can see it on some of the on the flips in the slow motion, but because of the force and the weight of the ball, the bat actually gives a little bit. It does. It really moves. The coil's trying to move it. The bat pushes back a little bit just from the force of the ball. Then the ball gets flung. Remember, the ball has some of the force from the flipper, but not all of it. The flipper bat should be moving faster than the ball. Yes. That's how it can touch it a second time. The path is already set because of the speed of the ball's momentum from the flipper and then the flipper's still moving trying to move with the same force the full power of the you know until it reaches the end of stroke so hashtag physics bitch right yeah it's it's it's it's interesting though it's interesting to actually see it because then to the naked eye you wouldn't detect that but the rubber flares up on this comes off of the bat that the host said you cannot see with the naked eye almost akin to a drag race when you see it in slow motion, the tires rippling. That's what it reminded me of. And I thought, does it really do that? Why wouldn't it? I mean, you saw it. I felt like those were like soggy rubbers or something. Oh, are you wondering maybe of a different material, like a super band or a silicone Titan rubber might behave differently? Yeah, I think that that's maybe why there's such a difference in feel between a rubber and like a tight super band. Like the Titans are a little bit different. So I'll put those right in the middle. It would be interesting to see a test with all three types. I'm sure they behave at least slightly different. Just because different materials, it's got to have a different ripple factor. But there so much difference because like the GNR that I unboxed the LE there I going to have to change those regular traditional flipper rubbers They too bouncy Why They just too bouncy and soft Oh Is it too hard No, it just makes the game not as controllable as a Stern. I thought Stern used regular flipper rubber. The only ones I remember, like Spooky I know uses silicon. I don't like Spooky's. I think they use the Pinball Life ones. I love everybody at Pinball Life. I love you guys, but they have got to change those damn flipper Those things are high bounce.
    19:30
    Super high bounce on those things. Yeah, I've used Pinball Life for a few of my games I've worked on. Those are almost as bad as the Super Bands. I'm not a Super Bands fan either. Yeah, I don't ever use Super Bands. Titan's worth that for me. Too many experiences with Super Bands on location. I didn't like how they played. I think that Stern utilizes a black rubber, which is a very different feel than the red rubber. The different colors do seem to have different elasticity properties. And I guess that's been true historically, too. Yeah, Redmills are soft black or a little bit thicker. But red is seen as traditional. If you're trying to go with that Bally Williams feel, you've got to have red rubber or else you're cheating it. Yeah, but I don't know. Well, it's your game. You're allowed to. I mean, I change them. I don't stick with the red rubbers either unless I want to. It all depends on my mood. It's not ideal to what the design of the game is going for, I don't think. I think they probably, if anything, they designed their game with the rubbers that they put on it. I can definitely see that, but then it's just wrong. I don't know what else to say. It's just wrong. That's fine. Yeah, seeing that rubber come up off of the flipper bat to that degree was astonishing. Also, the air balls. The air balls, when hitting these stand-up targets to the naked eye, sometimes it doesn't appear that the ball is going into the air that much. But damn, when they filmed it down low, even if its trajectory is up in the air, just a hair from a top-down view when you're playing, you're not going to see that. And it was very surprising to see how often that ball went airborne. Yeah, I think a lot of people normally in a high-speed game, when do you notice air balls? When they go up enough to hit the glass. Yes. And then my scientific brain was thinking about it more and more after watching the video, Dennis. And I was like, it totally makes sense. Think about baseball. It's all about the spin. It's all about the spin and the speed. So the spin and the speed goes. When it makes contact, it's naturally going to try to continue going in that motion, thus pulling it up into the air. Yeah. Baseball does the same thing. But dimples. We'll talk about that here. When Charlie from Spooky was interviewed, he talked about some of the clear coat issues. So overall, I'm just simply amazed that these machines even function After seeing this bullet fly around, this piece of hard steel Fly around everywhere at high speeds and very high impact These mechanisms, to the naked eye, Dennis, do not seem to move much It might have a little dribble, a little shake But man, when you slow this game down You see metal bending and flexing like you have never seen before It is a physical game. Wow. All right. Speaking of clear code issues, the super awesome pinball show, they interviewed Spooky's Charlie.
    22:26
    He was kind of on a potato mic. I didn't know what. I was like, Charlie has a podcast. How in the hell? Maybe he was in via phone. Sometimes. It was something. Sometimes that has to happen. KT was getting groceries in the background. It was hilarious because I was just thinking of Franchi as the editing audio guy, just probably cringing the whole time like son of a nah he'll just fix it in post they initially did talk about tna getting another run at some point uh whether you called a 2.0 revolt whatever it may be i did not know though i did not know this charlie emory talked about the possibility of actually some physical updates or tweaking to the game which is common for stern games when they vault them but i just figured to be another run i didn't think that they would go fine tune it and continue fine tuning it into production well i mean he did stress that it will be the identical layout correct nothing major right some fix i mean back when they were talking about this more free and this was back when alice cooper was on the line and this was being discussed i i found this really interesting because it has been my assumption which like many of my assumptions is now proven wrong that this idea had been abandoned oh because of the well i just assumed that the plan was that they were gonna do some i knew there would be changes like maybe different art uh some i think even back in the day they'd noted that they would be some you know physical corrections on mechs things that could be improved a bit but my thought was that was all before they knew that rick and morty was going to be the rick and morty you know the big hit that it is so So I – because I don't know what the demand is because one of the other things way back in the day when this was being discussed is that TNA 2.0 will not cost what TNA 1.0 did. It will be more money.
    24:12
    And given that, I don't know how many more TNAs you sell with the identical gameplay. I think you run 100. I'm kind of at that point as well. But again, I don't – is it worth it? I still don't know if that's really the answer or not. But clearly, Charlie and Scott Denise are having fun coming up with the concepts and stuff. Well, and they're smart enough. We've seen it with how they launched and released Rick and Morty. Listener, they're smart enough that they know, and it's the fan club stuff, they know how to add just a little bit of jazz to the additional run if they do that. They know how to add to that so that the end buyer will want one of those newer ones. Oh, I'm sure they can sell some. It's just, I mean, the thing is, and I haven't priced them in a while, but TNA sells for less used than it did new, which would be normal. What you'd normally expect out of a pinball machine. But so I'm not clear if there's actually high demand for more TNAs out in the market. I mean, they did sell, remember next to Rick and Morty, it's their most successful game ever with 550 units already. There are a lot of them. I mean, for a spooky, there are a lot of them out there. There are a lot of them out there. And Charlie talked about how many go on location.
    25:20
    Yeah, he mentioned about half were on location. And in fact, right after I got mine, we did end up with one on location. And ultimately, well, when I ordered mine, there weren't any in the Kansas City area, to my knowledge. Within a month, there were three.
    25:34
    That is a lot. Well, we love our single levels out here in the flyover country. Well, that basically describes the topography of Kansas, doesn't it? Single level.
    25:48
    Just joking, Topeka. Timeline-wise, I don't know how this works. that's part of my challenge it's like because they've got other they're working on that you know we know that they've got they're unveiling a new designer here coming up yeah it's coming and they charlie talked about april may june is what we're looking at he's on target for the rick and morty's ending uh at the beginning of the year so april may june is when we'll see a new game so where does this put does this put a small run right before they start developing and shipping the new game? That, in my mind, would have been the most logical place, unless this is further out on the horizon and they plan to wedge this in after the next new game. They still got that CGC combo collaboration going. Right, but that won't take any of their production time. To me, that's moot. That's not a factor.
    26:37
    I don't know. I do know that they did a, I don't know if you've seen the Slasher video that they did on their social media this week. I did not. It's spooky pinball, so they're going to have a cool, fun time with Halloween. They did a short video that shows Charlie sweeping up in the factory and then a killer coming in and trying to kill him, and the only thing he has to protect him is a playfield. It was well done. It was kind of a poke and a troll towards some of the playfield issues that people are having, but he was having fun with it. I thought it was brave because they've had play field clear code issues in the past as well. I think if I know Charlie and the gang up there, they would defer and say, well, no, we weren't trying to do that. We're just having fun. We like slasher films. And they would downplay it. But I think it was a little poke to others in the industry myself. You have to go and watch that. Well, you people in the pinball industry are always trying to look for slights wherever you can. So I'm not surprised you see a poke there. I'd like to think that the majority of human behavior is conducted either consciously or subconsciously for a reason. I just think that everybody thinks it consciously if they're not aware of it. Nothing else is happening. No ulterior reason. But there's a lot on the bottom of that iceberg there, Dennis.
    27:57
    Hmm. That sounds fascinating. I'm sure we can talk about it someday. Like sex and mothers. Yes. And cigars. I would be proud of you. On the Super Awesome Pinball Show, they also spoke with Charlie Emery about the clear coat issues that are facing this industry again and again and again. Now, he actually turned down the idea of this being a tight ass manufacturer not buying good clear, which was good to hear. Spooky Pinball has kind of figured it out to some degree with clear coats. I haven't heard about any recent issues. Are you aware of any, like with Rick and Morty? No, I'm not aware of any. Then again, one could argue not a lot of games have gone out, so it's hard to know. Now, what are they – do you know what they're loosely up to?
    28:46
    I can tell you real quick here. I mean, I also don't remember a bunch of play field issues with Alice Cooper, so, I mean, it was TNA where they had like 100 of them that were bad. And that came up on the Clusterfuck episode of Slam Tilt. Ron has one of the bad ones. I see. They are at – I was just informed that we need to pay for a couple of our customers with 320s in the 320 range. So usually that means a couple of weeks out once you pay. Yeah, so they're almost halfway through the run. So they're not cheaping out on clear. That's nice. Yeah, he spoke to it being more of a process issue, which I'm so ignorant with this. I'm sure I can see that too. So something involving the application. Yes. He did go on to say, and I've thought of this before, but it kind of confirms it whenever a manufacturer is saying it. He said clear coat was, quote, very, very thin, end quote, on your older 90s games. Yes, yes, it was. And I've heard this come up when the pooling started to show. Some people have noted, well, there's so much clear on these now. It's so thick. and I've even heard that speculated about why people feel maybe they are noticing dimples more now. Yeah. There's clear to push in on the wood. Again, I don't know if it makes it – highlights it more or what, but I have heard reference before that, that this obsession with lots of clear on the play fields is part of the problem or at least it's part of why people see problems easier. Yeah, and he talked about that. He said everybody wants, you know, 2020, everybody wants these really glossy glass-like surface, and you get that with a lot of clear, whereas the old 90s games were very, very thin. He even went on to say that that's a big reason that spooky pinball surfaces on their playfields may not look as shiny as others. So I think there, listener, he was alluding to they're using much thinner coats of clear as well.
    30:43
    Personally, I think that's smart. There was not like a vote where people decided we must have thick clear. I think that was just like an appeasement strategy, and I'm not sure that there's really much. If it's actually related to why there are problems now, I think the idea of going back and doing very thin clear is a smart move. We've seen a change in Stern Pinball. I did personally that when they were having issues, what was it? I think it was Jurassic Park. when they were having initial issues with Jurassic Park a year or so ago. Remember, they rolled out pros. They were having some issues around the post with the art. Then they waited for the premium LEs to get fixed. Then when those came out and following that when Elvira came out, the clear did look significantly different. I assumed it was thinner because you've seen in the screen-printed play field or they weren't screen printed the inkjet play field, you've seen the clear level-wise, you could feel where the different art patterns were, different lines of the art. So it did look like it was a little bit less coded. So I know that there was a change. Now, whether they went back to that old process, I don't know, but there was a change at some point, so they're trying to figure it out. Yeah, and we talked about that last week. Boy, some podcasters are not happy, Dennis, with some of our discussion as well as other podcasters' discussions about clear coats.
    32:15
    Oh. Yeah. Everyone's entitled to their opinion. That's what I've – here's what I don't understand. You and I essentially said the same thing on last episode, but we will get emails and messages that says, I agree with Dennis. It's bullshit. I don't agree with Zach. He thinks this is totally fine. And I'm like, wait, when did I say it was fine? I'm pretty sure if you quote me, I said it is complete bullshit and it is a defect, and so did Dennis. Yeah, but I think there the difference was I also said that it is something that I'm considering when I think about buying a new game, and you said you're still buying everything. Sorry. Fine. I'm considering it. Wait for it. Considered it, and I'll still buy. Right. So you're not putting your – well, actually, you are. You're putting your money where your mouth is, and your mouth is saying this is concerning. But as you noted, it wasn't concerning enough for you not to want to buy and enjoy the game. Whereas I, thinking of it, it was like, well, if I end up wanting to get rid of the game, if I get one of the bad ones, how is that going to affect my resale? How is that going to – even if I could look past – like I could look past clear pooling pretty easily as a player. Art shipping away would really bother me. But I'm factoring in. I can only own so many games. Do I want to take an extra $500 hit because I lost the roulette wheel of clear? I'm not made of money like you. I have to factor these things in. No, you're just thrifty. I don't have a lineup of pure LEs. Not that you couldn't. Never feel sorry for anyone who owns their own plane or who owns all LEs. Is that a general rule? A heuristic? Yes, I stole that from Anthony Hopkins' character in The Edge.
    33:58
    Words to live by. Is that the movie about the fucking bear? Yes, it is. Who references The Edge? I'm so pleased that you've seen it. I'm so pleased you've seen it.
    34:13
    Man, we're perfect for one another. That's my bear. He's going to get you. Because you own your own plane, he's going to get you. That's Jeff Teelis owns his own plane.
    34:25
    No, he's getting his pilot's license. I think he said he was looking at buying a plane. I don't think he's bought one yet. That was hyperbole there, Jack. And in the context of the movie, by plane they meant jet, not Cessna. That's true.
    34:39
    You know, both my maternal grandparents flew planes. And they crashed them. Yep. I'm not laughing, listener. More than once, I believe.
    34:47
    You said they were not great pilots. Clearly not. They kept crashing their planes. That's not normal. I just picture your great-grandfather with a handlebar mustache running off a cliff with one of those hang glider-like planes like the Wright brothers.
    35:04
    Yeah. No, I don't think my great-grandparents were plain people. Crashing harder than this clear coat. Oh, MPI. You ever heard of MPI? Nope. The Moving Picture Institute.
    35:16
    Sounds like a think tank. I thought this was an interesting little nugget. MPI is set to produce a dramatic comedy based on the true story of pinball wizard Roger Sharp saving the industry. Dramatic comedy. That is an interesting approach. Sounds like drunk history. have we not done this enough please send all hate mail to the pinball network at gmail.com but you know it's sort of like how people get tired of hearing the song pinball wizard i am really tired of hearing about the shop that saved pinball i really am even roger's probably tired oh i i'm sure he probably politely rolls his eyes at this point like yes yes you may kiss the ring it really is such a good story anyway the the moving picture Institute. They're a legit, legit group of filmmakers, guys. They've won awards for their most recent short films. They're producing and creating a dramatic comedy, a drum comp, for Roger Sharp's story. They ain't no Blair Witch. Oh, wait. They won awards, too.
    36:24
    They're basically a Blair Witch. I hope it's not a shaky cam. I won't be able to watch because I get motion sick. It's going to be from the perspective of that grimacing guy to the right of Roger Sharp. It's going to be from the perspective of the pop bumper. In slow-mo. Love the slow-mo. That's right, in slow-mo. It's going to be a very avant-garde thing going on. Not much more information on that. I just thought it was pretty cool. I'm the pop bumper. Don't hit me, Rog. Don't hit me. Ah! Drum com. Different type of Alvin Jones. Starring Poppy, the pop bumper. That sounds like a t-shirt idea Thank you I'm just a pop sitting on top of a play field I'm just a pop Just a sitting on top Poppy the Pop Bumper I can't wait to see this I'm really excited now What about Flippy the Flipper he flips you off Yeah He's the antagonist in this Coming of age tale Oh man the evil ramp Mr. Ramp. No, there weren't any ramps on that. I know. That's why he's evil. On the game he did the shotgun. He's from the future.
    37:34
    We got to go back, Flippy. Back to the future. Speaking of flipping. Yeah, I was going to ask you, Zach. Can you tell me what's going on with the GNRs?
    37:45
    So we got a minuscule update, or I did. I don't know if other dealers did. They probably know it all. I'm being hated on. It sounds like we're getting more GNR LEs by the month's end of November, beginning of December.
    38:01
    And a few. All dealers probably are just getting a few A few That sounds like single digits I would yes I would guess to say single digits Okay So just so people understand because I sure you got a lot of people that are waiting Only five times a day I'm asked. Okay. Well, then, perhaps for those that are listening on the show, knowing that end of the month, start of December, a few LEs are going to come out, not all of you are probably going to be satisfied. Not a lot of you are probably going to get your game. Just at that point. You don't have to wait longer. Temper your expectations, curb your expectations. Yeah, that's the word, temper, yeah. Yeah, I was a little frustrated, but there's nothing I can do. I guess nothing they can do. All you can do is temper. Yeah. Conan, tell me the secret of steel. Temper. And then they said that they're going to do a teensy-tinesy-eensy-weensy little run of standards, I believe, and then they'll move on and focus on the collector's editions. It feels like this is a complete guess, complete guess, listener, but it feels like we're going to start seeing CEs at the beginning of the year, January. How patient do you think people will be? Because it's a pretty game and people want it. With this title, I think they'll be fine. I think people will wait. They'll be frustrated, but I do believe that they will. We'll have to see once Led Zeppelin drops. Yeah. We're hearing more about that rumored title as well. But like we said before, it's going to take a long time for Stern to catch up to this type of music pen. It just is. I agree. I completely agree. The only issue is, as we know, pinball is a fickle hobby. People don't like to wait ad nauseum to receive something that they put money down for. And sometimes they might bail and say, I'd rather get the less shiny, newer game because they can always go back later and get the game that they passed up on. Listener, would you purchase the following t-shirt if it just simply had a quote by Dennis Griesel that said, Pinball is a fickle beast. I think they would, Dennis.
    40:09
    You might hit like 10 sales at most. It's better than some of these shows are doing sales-wise. I think most people know that. Pinball people are really fickle.
    40:18
    Pinball people are really fickle. That's a good quote. Yeah, just broadly. I mean, buying, flipping.
    40:24
    There's a lot of transition. I don't get the sense that people who collect cars turn through cars the way pinball people turn through pins. That's true. That's a really good point. But the fickleness isn't just about game acquisition. It also reflects on the willingness to forgive, you know, the John Papadukes of the world or looking and wanting pinball brothers to come out and bring back Alien and kind of forgetting about all those that didn't get what they paid for. You know, that fickleness is sort of lamped. The predator here. Sure. See, why did you make me personify I didn't make you do anything Why did you make me personify Playfield mechs? Now I'm thinking of Fickle the Pickle Like, damn it Pickles aren't normally on Playfield, so I'm Pickle Fickle You know me from a hit cartoon, Rarkin' Marky There's not much been going on with Stern Pinball They had a code update for Jurassic Park 1.03 just to clean up But there was some stuff going on with Haggis pinball as Melbourne Silver Bowl and Marty Robbins over there. Doc, do you know how to let the air out of a man?
    41:33
    RIP Sean Connery. That's not a Connery quote. I don't care. That was a Liam Neeson quote. Whatever. Irish. He's something. He was. Rest in peace.
    41:45
    That was our moment of silence for Sean Connery. Yes. The moment where you called him Irish. What was he, Squash? Yes. I don't know what he was.
    41:55
    Melbourne Silver Bowl streamed the first production, Celts. It was a fun stream. Very nice. I like the crew over there. This past Friday they did that. So if you want to take a closer look at the game, the rules, et cetera, tune in to the VOD for that. But one of the things I took away is that they know how to make a lockdown bar.
    42:17
    Dennis, did you see that beautiful porn of a lockdown bar they showed? no i did not see the stream i'm afraid full disclosure here gave me an erection no one wants your disclosure about my erections or about my disclosure i think both no why not both that's fair it's not like i'm telling you the size of it or anything but it was it was full on for this embedded they had a raised logo of haggis built into their molded into their lockdown bars again it was kind of just a smile that i had i'm like this little australian company may have perfected playfield surfaces and now can just make willy-nilly some lockdown bar a custom lockdown bar that has rounded edges wow they might be able to get an extra six hundred dollars for that somebody said but where's the pin bar and damien where is damien he's like charlie You're not going to get a little poke from them, but he did poke and said, well, if I would have put down the pin bar in there, then I wouldn't have been able to round the corners of the lockdown bar. Ouch. People say that that doesn't actually hurt. What's that?
    43:30
    Some people who had hands-on experience with the pin bar. It doesn't matter if it hurts. It's uncomfortable. There's a standard. It's uncomfortable. He said it didn't hurt. It's not the pin bar. Don't judge it. Let's make a fucking basketball square.
    43:40
    It's a standard. That would be a sight to see. Do you have spikes on your steering wheel? No, it's a standard, smooth. But the lockdown bar, yeah, this Rise logo, Raise logo. They had even what they're calling a Grrple or something, where it's like a chameleon color. You can choose all these different colors. To me, what I'm taking away is still this. This is a strong take, and I'm going to get some hate mail. But Haggis Pinball, to me, Dennis, is closer to understanding and getting right a boutique manufacturing business in pinball than multi-morphic pinball.
    44:14
    Hmm. That is a pretty strong take. Yeah, I agree. The things that they are doing that are innovative, they just really make sense. The aesthetics, the choices, the options, the playfield surfaces, all of this stuff really leads to some of the innovation that we want to see and we want to see right now, minus the theme that they've got. I get that. But some of the interior lighting, they did that before a lot of people. right but Multimorphic's taking a very different approach on innovation I think Haggis is going to be able to sell games better and that's craziness because there's not a tenth of the innovation in a Haggis pinball well but it's not all about as I think Multimorphic knows or should have at this point it's not all about innovation themes matter price matters they've got the worst themes Keltz is the shittiest theme since maybe Oktoberfest. It's not any worse than Lexi Lightspeed as a theme. I would argue it is. I don't. Because Kelts is at least based on the Scottish games, so there's something there. Yeah, but there's not really a story there like there is with Lexi Lightspeed. Caber toss. That's the story. It's the story of a caber that got tossed.
    45:32
    Caleb the caber. They know. Toss me. I cannot make the distance that you got to toss me. So I just think that they are going to be very, very, very dangerous if they get a license. More so than multi-mortar. Dangerous. Interesting. Yes.
    45:50
    With some of the stuff that they are doing, Dennis, I believe they can move units. They really can. Yeah.
    45:57
    I don't know. And I didn't see the video, and so I haven't seen the gameplay to judge this particular game. But as we see, as we just talked about with the upcoming units on GNR, it's not just, well, theme is a big thing. You've got to have the theme. You've got to have the gameplay. You've got to have the layout. You've got to have the ability to produce units. There's just a lot that would really have to come together for it to truly be dangerous. And the gameplay wasn't, I'm going to be honest, it wasn't spectacular.
    46:25
    It's a couple of orbits. It didn't do much for me. There's a lot of code. A lot of code in there for the layout. I mean, that... Yeah, well, I mean, while we disagree on this, that's one of my... I felt there was this very strong attempt by Jersey Jack to save Hobbit with code, but I just think it can't overcome the layout fully. It helps. It helps a lot, but... Why do you always have to reference that? There's only so much code can do. When are you going to realize you're wrong? I don't know. Maybe next week. I hope your old and gray rocking on your rocking chair... I've long passed because I've got so many bad habits that I'm going to die of a heart attack by 40, 45. But you're rocking and you're sipping your herbal green tea and you're like, dang nabbit, my son of a bitch was right. Hobbit is a good game. And immediately die after.
    47:14
    I would come back from the dead and hold you as you take your last breath. If they can get a theme and a design. What am I saying? If they can get a great theme and a great design and good rule set. Yeah, they can have everything right. They'll be great. So, yeah, fascinating. as you would usually say what a what a hard take you've had there well but i think it was it's pretty wild to think that kelts could sell more than multimorphic has sold in the last five years i don't know how many let's compare it to something we have numbers with how do you think it will sell versus tna which we know sold 550 well we know haggis is we know that kelts is limited to 200 so but again it's a kelts it's kind of a nothing theme tna was an original theme. No. Single level versus single level. Price points aren't too far apart, I don't think. No, they're close. They're not going to be sold out as much as TNA. No way. Okay. Sounds like you mentioned the rules on Kelts looked pretty deep. TNA's rules are very straightforward, fairly simplistic rule set. Yeah, but it's an engaging, addictive rule set. It's got the light show, it's got the sound, and the layout is pretty unique on TNA. And it's got the Denise story.
    48:25
    I don't, again, And I don't think most people buy the games over some designer's store. And again, what I'm pitching is that there is a surface-level awareness that people have that think that they don't buy stuff because of certain reasons, but there's a subconscious reason that people do what they do. And it is in there.
    48:45
    Okay. That seems like a reach. I think people either have played it and liked it, or they look at it, and something about the game makes them want the game. I'm not saying it's predominant. So, yeah, I can't argue with the reach argument. Like a cool add-on, but I don't even know if it warrants enough to say that it's actually a variable in the purchase decision. So that's my struggle. That it's neat. The Scott Denise story is neat is neat, but I never bought the game because it was a neat story. And you know what? I don't buy Doritos because all these superstars are eating them, but they continue throwing them into commercials for a reason.
    49:21
    Yeah. It's like a subliminal kind of thing. I don't know. Maybe there are some people that buy Doritos because Kevin Durant eats them. Does he eat them? Look at you. I don't know. I don't know who eats them. I'm trying to remember a celebrity eating Doritos. I'm going to keep doing this. Samuel L. Jackson maybe ate a Dorito. Penelope Arquette.
    49:41
    Just randomly insert a bye-bye-bye. The difference is Doritos are cheap. Buying an impulse buy or a buy because you saw an ad is nothing. It's not a big deal. I don't know. It's all relative. Third world countries are like, oh, God, you spend that much for Doritos? Relativity, you're right, but it only goes so far. I have not met a rich person who treated pinball machines like they were bags of Doritos.
    50:09
    I'll introduce you to some people. Come one, come all, come for what's known as the most beloved segment in all of pinball podcasting. That's right. We're talking not current. We're talking history, Dennis. We're making history.
    50:27
    I don't think the pinball market trends is probably the most captivating, the most evidence-based pinball segment in all of podcasting. No, no, not really.
    50:40
    Engaging, loving, addictive. It engages. A lot of people do like it. A lot of people love it. Maybe I should offer that. If somebody does a hashtag bye-bye-bye on your ass, maybe you should ask someone to design a new Pinball Market Trends shirt if you love it so much. I'm working on it, Dennis. I'm teaching myself Illustrator right now. God, it's been in this podcast for like half a fucking year. Look. What the hell? Go to college for this stuff.
    51:05
    No one goes to college for t-shirt design. No, but to work with Illustrator? Man, there are layers and masks. Come on. I'm going to have to use Illustrator. What do I use? You're going to have vectors? What am I supposed to use, GIMP? No. Really couldn't understand that program. Damn. And have you not worked with artists? You have. They're fickle. Speaking of pickles, the artist is fickle. Try dealing with an artist. Fuck. Yes, I've had my struggles. Jeez, man. As you know very well. I feel like every time I'm talking to an artist, no offense, people, but it's like I'm in the fucking saw room. Who's going to saw their leg off first to get out of this son of a bitch? I want to play a little game with you, Zach.
    51:52
    I need you to commission me for a t-shirt, and then I'll put you off for a year. I can't guarantee a deadline. Yeah, I don't want to complain, but I'll tell you, I'm a very deadline-driven person. It drives me crazy to have people not adhere to deadlines. I'm just like, just follow a deadline. That's why we plan. Some of them think they're worth gold. I'm a planner, Zach. I'm a planner. They're worth gold. Like, oh, you want a faunted quote on a t-shirt? $1,200. What?
    52:27
    You didn't even create the font. What's the highest on any artist's discussion with t-shirts? What's the highest you've ever been quoted? I've been quoted so high that they said it's best for them not to tell me how much it is. Oh, wow. I'll tell you mine. The highest I have ever been told was $3,000. It doesn't surprise me. It just depends on how intricate it is. And I don't think I would have had exclusive use. For the most part, I've been told about $750 to $1,000 for a design. I've been told by a couple of 500 if they're allowed to use the art elsewhere. Yeah, see, Brian Allen's got a lot of stipulation. He's a pricey guy. He does great work, but he is, and this is public knowledge, he's pricey. You can use something that he's already used before and just kind of template it toward pinball. That's cheaper than an original design. but even at the original design you have to buy the rights to to create that and to use that to own that ip and i'm not surprised they charge more if you want exclusivity i totally get that yeah i think holderman's the same way he's he is a pricey little devil too so anyway for those uh interesting getting your own t-shirts here's some dollar ranges for you to have a sense about because yeah i mean that's my experience or you can just design them yourself and throw them on and never get them out a lot of people do that you could do it the tps way Damn it. I don't do mediocre. You could do a contest and then shit on all over everyone's submission. They weren't good enough. What do you want from me, Dennis? Pinball Architects! Turning up this week is Adam's Family. I don't know how you guys are the ones that create these statistics for me. I just report the facts. The Adam's Family is now like a $7,000 pinball machine. I don't know how the nicer examples are up towards $8,000. And what is this, Indiana Jones, the pinball adventure? No, it's not. It's far from it. It's about a fourth of the game that Indiana Jones is. But you guys, for some reason, still have to have this damn game in your collection. Simple snore bore fest to me. But numbers don't lie. I only report the facts, and that's why I'm also reporting. Training up this week is Medieval Madness. Have they not made enough of those, Dennis? I guess not. Son of a... Royal editions are out. Royals are out. Specials are out. I'm still getting hit up for, hey, you got any of those medieval madnesses? They're scratching their necks and shit. Like, I don't have them. I know that meme. Damn. I've got the accessories. I got them. I've got the topper kits. RGB lighting kits. I've got the extended display kit. I don't have medieval madnesses. I thought they were saturated at this point. Nope. The damn things are still going for $8,000 for like a standard use. That's new in box prices, people. Shit. Conversely, though, training down this week is a tech from Mars.
    55:12
    Oh, no. How? The market is fickle. Like pinball in general. Fickle, fickle thing. Because for my money, Attack from Mars is cheaper, and it may be a better game than Medieval Madness. It is. Attack from Mars is... Rules-wise, it is a better game. Right? I even like the geometry better, I believe. I do, too. The Attack from Mars is down price-wise on the secondary market. There's inventory of them. I just don't get it. But again, I'm merely a conduit to the information out there in pinball numbers. That's all. I'm just here to serve you all. Also trending down this week is assuming that everybody relies on This Week in Pinball for podcasting news. Seems a little silly for me to bring up, but I've heard a couple times this week people thanking Jeff for This Week in Pinball, which that should be done. He does a lot of work. But them following that up with every podcaster uses TWIP for their news and their material. Sell, sell, sell. Yeah, no. I've heard that on a few podcasts. That's actually not correct. No, it's not. We work damn hard to get information and to drum up some news every week. And I don't rely on TWIP for anything. I do sometimes for EGP. and when I do, I cite it. I put a link in the show notes when I use them for some news and I use other things for other news. I'm appreciative to anyone that's putting out news and gathering it. But yeah, it's a little weird to see people make blanket statements thinking that... It's fine if they do. I'm fine with it if they do. And that's probably where it comes from is that they like to rely on one source for... And it is a good aggregation so I can see the attraction to it. I remember when it came out, Tony and I initially... I think for us on EGP, the issue was just we were kind of Quite frankly, it's just set in our ways with how we would usually pull from a hot topic, forum discussion from Pennside and what was going on in the pinball enthusiast groups on Facebook Those are generally my two primary news sources and it just out of habit more than anything but podcasters out there if you want to do great work if you're going to spend all this time editing, if you're gonna spend all this time speaking into a microphone, the extra step is not that hard. People look, you've got a smartphone. That's, that's a computer in your pocket at all times. When you see, hear, or read anything of interest, jot it down.
    57:34
    Whoa, whoa. Oh, how about it? That's all you've got to do. That's all we do here. What Tony and I do is we have a shared OneNote, and we throw our notes up in that throughout the two weeks, and then that's what we go through. And ideally, when I get a chance, when I'm back home, I go in, and then I put in a link, and I have a links section. I put in links to those so I can go back and find my news sources. And then I like to dump them into my show notes. And I think the reason I bring this up is you've got to be really careful as a media industry. If you've got a voice and you're wanting to speak, put some effort into it. And that effort, see what happens is if you only rely on one source, then every show is just going to be that one source. I would never. You all sound the same. Plus, Twit doesn't air stuff a lot of times. There's no awareness of the stream on GNR Standard last week. Eric, man, you're talking about Melissa from GNR coming back. You're going to miss a lot of stuff if you're just relying on one source. That's my point. Not all sources are perfect. So news organizations can't get everything. Do some work, people.
    58:37
    Oof. That's going to ruffle feathers. Don't give a fuck. That was my ruffle feathers, don't give a fuck song. Did you like that? It was original. Let's kick it over to your deal of the motherfucking week. Bye, bye, bye. The deal of the week this week is a Deadpool premium that can be found on Pinside, San Antonio, Texas. Pew, pew, go Tar Heels. Them sons of bitches down there have the best priced pins because we continue to showcase deals of the week out of Texas. A Pinsider by the name of Alamo underscore pin is selling a Deadpool premium, $65.50. Buy, buy, buy! That price is good, y'all. Less than 600 plays. That is a good price for a stock Deadpool premium. The reason it makes it a deal of the week, you can't get these games. They just don't make them. They ran it once. I'm telling you right now, if you want a Deadpool premium, this is the one to get. You can keep calling me. I can keep putting you on a pre-order list, but they're not running the damn things for the rest of 2020. So you're not going to see them for quite some time. And let's kick it over to the sub-segment of the pinball shows, pinball market trends, and a little sub-segment we call Deals of the... Would you shut up, man? steals the what the fuck everybody and the deal of the wtf this week is an attack from mars right outside of las vegas that wasn't really singing right or character impersonation yeah that's fair we don't need to do it again you don't even let me finish the chorus the hook pinball dude one is the pin cider at a las vegas nevada he is selling an attack from mars get this Dennis, you want to know how special this thing is? It's called the Special Edition and it's still new in the box. That's pretty special. Look, here's the description and I want you guys to have your phones ready because you're about to call this guy. Buy, buy, buy! Last run. Last chance to get one in the box. Buy, buy, buy! It's impossible to find and it's sold out everywhere. Buy, buy, buy! Chicago has no plans to run any more of these. Buy, buy, buy! Hate to let her go. She will never see it again brand new in the box. Buy, buy, buy! I'll handle all shipping arrangements for you and all hassles, free pickup, or I'll even throw another $350 shipping to your door. Guess what the price is, Dennis, of this rare, never-before-seen, never-seen-again pinball machine? $9,000. $9,200.
    61:06
    I was close. Deal of the, what the literal fuck? Sell, sell, sell. $9,200. Ladies and gentlemen, I have six in stock right now for $73. Did this man have a stroke? What is going on?
    61:24
    Why even waste your time submitting this onto Pinside? People, people, people. And my apologies if your feathers are fully ruffled. But get over it. That's what we do here on the Pinball Show. Only reporting the facts.
    61:41
    Numbers don't lie. Pinball Market Trends! Dennis Kreisel are your feathers ruffled yet no I thought this was a fairly calm episode really for me deals with the Dennis what the let's close out the show Dennis where can people catch you can always email eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com or go to facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast and send a message through that those are the best ways to reach out to me and buy a t-shirt people tight asses come on no I don't have to buy a t-shirt Maybe someday I'm going to put out a new t-shirt design if I can find an artist and get a deadline. You can reach me straight down the middle of a pinball video series on YouTube. Email me there at sdtmpinball at gmail.com. Or buy a new, brand new pinball machine for $2,000 less than some of the listed prices for new inbox on Pinside. You can reach out to us for any interested lists as well for toppers, accessories, etc., etc., including the upcoming Stern pinball machine. What do you have in stock right now? Oh, we've got a lot in stock. We're stocking up for the holiday season. We've got Deadpools. How about it? We've got Avengers. How about it? One left, Star Wars Comic Pro. Not going to run that again for the rest of the year.
    63:02
    Elvira's are hard to find right now, so we don't have any of those. But we have Star Wars toppers. We have a new topper coming in, I think, the next two weeks, I've been told. Attack from Mars, boom. in stock. Hot Wheels? I think we've got one left. We have an abundance of pinball machines right now. Avengers Pros? Those things are still training up. Got those in stock. And banners. We have dim banners. So contact me at 812-457-9711 or text for a quicker reply or email me at ZachZACH at flip the letter N out pinball dot com. Shout out to my wife for being such a damn lovely and beautiful and sexy business partner. Catch us on Twitch and Facebook. Follow us everywhere there special and huge shout out to the tpn streamers uh they've been doing a really fun job did you see the fliptronic where they green screen the damn angus face and all of our personalities and faces were up on acdc pro it was clever yeah fantastic work over there everybody i had someone message me like at 11 30 at night with my guess my face was up on it and it just all it did was it was a screenshot and they just said ha ha ha ha ha and you were like yes i i think I sighed because that's what I usually do. It was so fun. So good. I think we got a final round pinball podcast coming up this week. I miss those guys already. And Josh Jacobs concluded his horror fest every Saturday. That was a lot of fun. The last story was really intriguing. He had a lot of good ideas.
    64:31
    I'm hoping I can play it later today. I downloaded it last night, but I haven't had a chance to see it. He just randomly made up three pinball themes for just the basis of his story that he told and they're really good themes cool stuff so special shout out to all of those individuals um we're adding another podcast here soon and a couple more streamers here soon and you and i have got to get off of this so that we can go work on another project that you and i are undertaking yep yep time waits for no one for dennis greasel i am always going to be zachary many catch you on the flip side you're getting better at these outros than i am shit always practice safe pembali so long everybody up so long everybody see what i did there so long everybody is my outro minute yeah clever hi and welcome to this week's special halloween edition shit update with Dr John news of the week was the Haggis stream which occurred on the 31st of October with a comprehensive gameplay reveal on Melbourne's Silver Ball League with the infamous Martin Robbins and Ryan C. This is the first time the game's been revealed as production number zero got tested by the lads with Damien answering questions on stream about the game I asked him some questions afterwards all about the stream and how it went. There we go. We want to welcome Damien to the Pinball Show after his epic weekend of streaming during Halloween to show off Kelts final production game. Production game number zero, I understand. Is that right, Damien?
    66:18
    Yeah, that's right. Thanks for having me, Dr. John. Yeah, production game number zero or probably more accurately the production validation machine. Oh, that's a very technical term. I think I stole that from Stan Well you didn't steal much else and lots of innovation in the game How nervous were you before the stream or were you pretty confident everything was going to stand up to the rigours of Marty, Ryan and Dr Curly Tech No, no, we were pretty good, there was as always a few last minute tweaks and things that we were just sorting out but it was really prior to it, it was just going through and making sure all my switch adjustments were right and things like that No, and it was good. It held up. There was no issues for the entire stream as we expected. So, no, we were very happy with that. Yeah, I've often seen reveals where they do discover things for the machine that don't do it unless you're streaming live. I think every manufacturer has had that. So it was very refreshing to see a first off and Marty's excellent stream coverage. The only hiccup that I really saw was the disappearing lockdown bar, which happens when you use a green lockdown bar in front of a green screen.
    67:25
    Yeah. That was funny. I even double took on that before I realised, oh, yeah, it's green. We all thought that was quite funny, actually. That was quite clever. Yeah, I think it got coined in Vizibar or something in the middle of the stream.
    67:44
    So you mentioned on the stream about 20 machines already sold of the 200 maximum. Many nibbles during the live stream from around the world? Yeah, we got off the stream and shortly thereafter we had five machines sold. So I'm up at around 25 now. How much more development do you think has to go into the game as far as code-wise? Are you pretty happy that it's at 1.0? You were talking about some more call-outs going in, but as far as modes and wizard modes and multiballs, is pretty much everything there so far? Yeah, look, it's super mature. Probably the only thing that still wants to be fleshed out by Greg, who's doing the programming and that code rule side of things is the lady of the lake, Wizard Mode. So he's got it and we have a plan and a path to what it's going to be. It just needs to be executed now. So apart from that, everything else is pretty much done. The one thing that people wouldn't have picked up on, which I picked up on, and it's the first thing I fell in love with the game, is the music. We all heard there's a ton of music, all original, but with the speaker system and the sound system you've got, when those bagpipes are blaring out, it's pretty magical. It sounds great. Oh, yeah. Look, Casey Dean, who is our musical director, I mean, he's a local Melbourne artist, and he is just, in his own right, a phenomenal artist, and he has composed and recorded and mixed and mastered every single track on that game in conjunction, obviously, with the rest of the team and Greg, and he's just done an amazing job. So, yeah, the music, it's all original. It sounds fantastic. We have that custom sound system with a specifically designed ported subwoofer to fit inside of the cabinet and still manage all the space in there, and it just sounds great. So we would agree, I would agree, that the music and the way that he's composed it and mastered it all along with that sound system is phenomenal. The Celts Clan. Do you want to remind people about the Celts Clan again? Absolutely. So for anybody that wants to support us and get on board with Haggis Pinball but might not be in the position to buy a pinball machine just now, we would welcome and encourage you all to become members of Clan Haggis. What that does is it gives you a great big bag of swag that we will ship to you. So, you know, T-shirts, caps, stubby holders and key rings and a whole bunch of little things. and not only that but it will give you then priority access to some of the things that we have cooking in the background for uh plan to come to fruition in uh through throughout 2021 and even into 2022 so that plan haggis pack you can buy it from our website it's a hundred dollars australian that includes free shipping and uh as the pack was originally designed to accompany us to Texas back in March. It includes the 2021 medallions and pins, but it will logically, and we have included it now, to also take in 2021.
    70:47
    Nice. And what's the website again? So it's haggaspinball.com. Pretty simple. Playfield stood up. The not-so-controversial but much-anticipated Playfield stood up well to everything. Yeah. And, look, I made a point of talking to Ryan. I think we caught a bit of that conversation on the stream, but also to, you know, to Stacey and Axel and people that probably haven't played it at all or haven't played it since we had it in prototype stage, just ask them that question. Like, you know, if you didn't know or if it was up against one of your other machines, would you have come to it and thought, gee, that feels a bit odd? And it was an all-uniform no, not at all. It's like every other pinball machine. It just plays very true, plays nice and quick. and the beauty of it is that it will remain like that, arguably, for the next 20, 30, 40, however many years you own it, assuming you don't take to it with a screwdriver. And a question often asked, replacement parts mostly off the shelf, apart from some custom sculpts. So if you buy the game in the US and you lose a flipper mech, can they easily replace it? Yes, absolutely. So the control board set is multimorphic, so that's already an industry standard. all the mechs are based on again industry standard consumables so your calls and your sleeves and your rubbers and your springs they're all standard we obviously have designed mechs to suit our playfield for what we need the same way all the manufacturers do but no you're absolutely right i'm also starting to set up our spare parts store so we will support and have a full range of spare parts for all the games that we produce but to answer your question absolutely they'd be able a source locally if needed. And you've got a European distributor, you were saying? We do. We are just finalising some of the ins and outs of that. But Stefan Reidler from RS Pinball in Austria, he's coming on board, has some great interest and is very keen to do some business with us to get some machines over there into Europe. So that will flesh out over the next sort of couple of weeks and months and we will be putting together a number of machines to send over to him in the very near future as well. So that's great. build time someone orders tomorrow how long till they get their game so so the typical build time is around six weeks at the moment with the number of orders we have and and the forecasting we're doing it's probably if you ordered one now we'd be aiming for late december early january um there's obviously a few variables involved with things as with transport and and all those sorts of daily propositions in a in a covid world is but uh yeah that's where we're at now late december early January for any orders that are placed now. 200 games. So how many per week can you churn out? Yeah, we're still working through some of those feasibilities and we're already starting to grow the team and work through that scalability that we need to employ. Right, so you'll have more on the assembly line than just Damien 24 hours a day with a heavy screwdriver. Yes, correct. So we're still sort of realising exactly what that looks at, but I am working in batches of 10 games at a time at the moment. And so, again, I expect that each run of 10 games is somewhere between sort of the four to six-week period. So to service the current orders that we have now is what's now blowing me out sort of to January because that's now sort of incorporating more the six to 10-week period to get through those two batches of 10. So at the moment, yeah, what would that equate to? Approximately five a week, a bit under, maybe four a week. Good. And you're saying on stream, concentrating on building at the moment, but there's already a couple of new Haggis titles in the pipeline? Yeah, there is. There's one that's already, well, it's been in development for probably a good few months, maybe even up to six months now. That's something that we're looking to bring to market in early 2022. We're in 20 now, aren't we? Yeah, so early 2022. But we've got a couple of other things up our sleeve that we're hoping to realise in 2021. So we will just let that play out for the moment. Good. so the company will be around for quite a while yet. That is certainly the plan. Yeah, if you haven't been able to get rid of me so far, I reckon I'm here for good. Great. All right. Thanks a lot for your time, Damien, and good luck with the builds. Thanks, Dr John. And in spooky news, Charlie put a Facebook post up that in memory of Halloween this year, there will be a soon-to-be-released code for Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle, plus a new zombie code is already up. and a week or so ago Scott released the new TNA code. So everyone's still hard at work at Spooky, developing further code for their already well-flushed-out games. Well, that's it for this week. Hope you enjoyed the Cults stream if you saw it. If not, it's on video on demand on the Melbourne Silver Bowl League channel on Twitch. Catch you next week.
    75:42
    I'm gonna set my soul on fire. Got a whole lot of money that's ready to burn. So get those stakes up higher. There's a thousand pretty women waiting out there. They're all living the devil may care. And I'm just a devil with love at spare. So viva Las Vegas.
    76:06
    Viva Las Vegas. How I wish that there were more than 24 hours in the day