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Episode 17 - Make Pinball Great Again

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·1h 11m·analyzed·Oct 10, 2018
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.030

TL;DR

Hosts debate pinball innovation, Deep Root Pinball potential, and market trends ahead of Expo.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb discuss the pinball industry's need for innovation ahead of Pinball Expo, focusing on Deep Root Pinball emergence as a disruptive manufacturer, American Pinball contract manufacturing pivot, and speculation about upcoming releases including the rumored Stern Beatles machine. The hosts debate whether the industry is pushing creative boundaries or relying on safe rereleases, highlighting tensions between innovation and market demand.

Key Claims

  • American Pinball is adding a contract manufacturing line to help homebrew and third-party manufacturers with parts, artwork, and CNC services

    high confidence · Bill Webb reporting on American Pinball interview; discussed as part of company's pivot strategy

  • American Pinball's Oktoberfest game will be revealed Thursday night at Expo at 8 p.m.

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discussing American Pinball seminar timing; described as 'supposedly' revealed Thursday

  • Deep Root Pinball is exploring the use of physical smoke and sparks effects on the playfield

    medium confidence · Ken citing Jeff Patterson's article from This Week in Pinball about Deep Root tour

  • Deep Root Pinball celebrated landing an 80s-themed license that the community has been requesting

    medium confidence · Ken referencing Jeff Patterson's article; hosts speculate on what the license might be (16 Candles, Breakfast Club, etc.)

  • Roger Sharpe has been involved in 400-500 licensing deals across pinball and slot machines

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discussing Roger Sharpe interview from Head to Head A A Pinball Podcast

  • Prices on recently released pinball machines are dropping in value more frequently than games from prior years

    medium confidence · Ken and Bill discussing secondary market trends; attributed to increased supply and competition

  • Stern Beatles is rumored to be a Kapow title based on a Seawitch (1980 Stern) playfield layout

    low confidence · Ken introducing rumor; hosts acknowledge uncertainty about accuracy of speculation

  • Williams/Bally games (Twilight Zone, The The Addams Family, T2, Cirqus Voltaire) continue to appreciate in secondary market value

    high confidence · Ken and Bill discussing collector market trends; examples of price increases over time

Notable Quotes

  • “I think pinball can use some, I don't know, like renovating or some brand new designs or brand new... Revolutions.”

    Bill Webb @ mid-episode — Frames Deep Root's potential disruptive role in the industry

  • “As a consumer, somebody that plays pinball, I'd like to see something fresh. And I think that is why, going back to deeproot, I think this is how we started this whole thing, I'm excited about the potential and the possibility of these guys coming in and showing us something different.”

    Ken Cromwell @ mid-episode — Expresses core frustration with current innovation pace and hope for Deep Root's impact

  • “Pinball 2000 should have saved pinball... the people behind that Pinball 2000 project thought that they had saved pinball.”

    Bill Webb @ late-episode — Reflects on historical missed opportunity for innovation in pinball

  • “It is different by not doing anything different, if that makes any sense.”

    Ken Cromwell @ late-episode — Characterizes Stern Beatles rumor as paradoxical approach to Beatles license

  • “There's a reason people will pay X amount of dollars over a sticker on a car, because they have to have it. Period.”

    Bill Webb @ late-episode — Justifies premium pricing for limited edition/high-demand IP

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonDeep Root PinballcompanyAmerican PinballcompanySpecial When LitorganizationStern PinballcompanyThis Week in Pinballorganization

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: American Pinball scheduled to reveal Oktoberfest game Thursday 8 p.m. at Pinball Expo seminar

    high · Ken and Bill discussing confirmed Thursday night 8 p.m. reveal at Expo American Pinball seminar

  • ?

    business_signal: American Pinball transitioning to contract manufacturing services offering CNC, artwork, and parts sourcing for third-party manufacturers

    high · Bill Webb reporting details from American Pinball interview about contract manufacturing line and gap-filling services

  • ?

    machine_intel: Deep Root Pinball exploring physical smoke and sparks effects on playfield as novel mechanical innovation

    medium · Ken citing Jeff Patterson article covering Deep Root tour; hosts noting this would address previously identified technical challenge

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Deep Root Pinball celebrating acquisition of 80s-themed IP license that community has been requesting

    medium · Ken referencing Jeff Patterson's This Week in Pinball article; hosts speculate on possible titles (16 Candles, Breakfast Club, Animal House)

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Stern Beatles pinball rumored as Kapow limited edition title using Sea Witch (1980 Stern) playfield layout

    low · Ken introduces as speculation; hosts acknowledge uncertainty; discussed as potential premium collectible with final production numbers

  • $

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.214

0:00
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast starts now. Thanks for hitting that start button and taking the plunge. Here are your hosts, Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb. Hey, what's going on everybody? This is episode number 17 of the Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. I am Ken Cromwell. My co-host is Bill Webb. And before we start, because it's exciting times as we start the really close countdown to Expo, we're going to jump in the life and times of a Bill Webb and see exactly what's been going on. You've been keeping us up to date, Bill, on the Whirlwind Project. What's happening now? We've been trying. So, let me think here. So, we got the playfield order and picking that up at Expo from Larry at Starship Fantasy. Nice guy to deal with. Got the stickers ordered from Classic Arcades, which he makes nice stuff, too. I like his quality. It's not the first time I've gotten stuff from him in the speaker panel. About to go to Pinball Life and rob them of some parts. Well, obviously pay for them. Translates and that kind of stuff. Yeah, I mean, we're making headway. Got the garage shut up to start cutting. I was going to The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. We're going someplace else so the wife doesn't see it. And let it ferment in the car for a day. And it smells like brand new pinball and only costs you $127. It does. He was talking about that open box depreciation of $1,000 right after you open it. So we were kind of, I was suggesting just go to somebody else's house and smell their coin door, so to speak. Let them take the hit on the open box. Thank you to This Week in Pinball for letting me come on and co-host with Zach. We did that a couple days ago, so that was fun. различ côté dinner pricning dix-para que é importante Beauty Sarah The third line being added for the contract manufacturing.
2:57
The contract manufacturing line will be something that comes to fruition right away? If you have a homebrew pin or you just have an idea in manufacturing or hang up, you might have some options with American Pinball. They also talked about filling gaps, whereas if you had your pinball machine ready but you were missing artwork, they might be able to help you with the artwork. If you were missing Playfield CNC services, they could provide that to you as well, so they could kind of help bridge the gaps. The other interesting thing with that interview, obviously, he did talk about Oktoberfest, again, supposedly going to be revealed Thursday night at Expo at 8 p.m. We'll be right back. We'll see you next time on The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. I don't find alcohol consumption offensive personally. I didn't know if there are people that may find it offensive or they may shy away from playing the machine. I mean, yourself, do you find alcohol consumption offensive for a pinball machine? Or do you know anybody that might find it as something that they would not want to take part in just because of a theme that had a little bit to do with alcohol? Not really. I think you can kind of say that about any of the themes, though. I mean, if somebody's never seen Deadpool or thinks, you know, comics aren't their thing, they could be like, yeah, I'm not a big fan because it's based off a comic. Mm-hmm. Any idea for modes or anything you'd like to see in a game that's Oktoberfest themed? They had mentioned that there's a food frenzy, which is going to be a mode. I imagine there will be some, at least a beer mode in the game. You do have an LCD that will be on the back glass, most likely. I'm just assuming that they were going to do that. Just they did that with Houdini. They're going to be implementing, I'm hoping, like fun music, you know, the Oompa music is pretty cool for Oktoberfest in moderation. You don't want to have a whole pin of Oompa music, but that could be fun. No, you know, I'm curious to see what, yeah, the wizard modes are going to be, you know, he left a lot on the table to still think about that could be potentially in the game, you know. And I've tried wrapping my head around it and I just got to the point where I was like, you know, there could be a million different things in this, so. So, just looking forward to seeing it. Do you think that the pinball machine will feature you kind of going through experiencing Oktoberfest as somebody that's visiting or do you think it's like somebody that's like managing Oktoberfest like kind of like a Sim City type of thing? Probably just a visiting thing. Visiting? I would think. Okay. Yeah, I would think so too. I mean you don't need a bartender hosting you through a pinball machine if you're running Oktoberfest. It doesn't make any sense. No. We've talked about us kind of being anticipating this being released so for it to be so close is fun. How about this? I've got this question for you. Do you think that when we go to Expo on that Thursday night, which is the 8.30 Central Standard Time seminar that American Pinball will be holding, do you think that we will see a pretty finished pinball machine with artwork on the cabinet and artwork on the playfield and animations? The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of Willy Wonka. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of Wally Winkel and the Center for Autism and Related Disorders. That wouldn't make sense to do that. Okay. So you're expecting something fairly complete visually. Well, yeah. With code that's still in the works. Yeah. I mean, code is always... Here, we're looking at Star Trek, and I'm sure that there's code updates that you could do to Star Trek The Next Generation. No game is ever finished or completely polished to 100%, in my opinion. I'm just thinking, if it is a Whitewood that they're bringing, do you maybe think twice The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. The pinball show that eventually became a pinball machine was probably TNA, I'm thinking. And that pinball, in all fairness, started in the homebrew section of pinball expos and shows and made its way through Spooky for Manufacturing. Like I said, it's a podcast. It's fun to speculate. People are talking. We may as well talk. I mean, that's why we get paid the big bucks, bad boy Bill. Yes, we do. That's right. But I don't see them going backwards. The bar higher and higher every time they do a game, then it doesn't make sense to do it. Speaking of setting the bar higher and higher, we had Jeff Patterson from This Week in Pinball that posted an article this week about his visit to Deeproot Pinball in Texas. Now, Deeproot, for those of you that haven't been following the story, is one of the newer kids on the block as far as throwing their hat in the ring for pinball manufacturing. And they've come out, as I've said before, guns blazing with some pretty bold statements about manufacturing, about number of machines. They've kind of come out saying that they're going to kind of show the bigger manufacturers how this can all be accomplished a little bit more efficiently with potentially better machines. So, with that tour, first and foremost, I think it's important to recognize that Robert has said that they're really not going to be talking until this expo, and they're not going to be wrapping up their five days of Deep Root, which is kind of their marketing campaign to release the company and its products to the public over like these five days of Deep Root. Out Pinball Podcast, INDISC, Scott Danesi. Kudos to both parties for being able to figure that out. I think that's really cool. If you haven't seen the article you can go to thisweekinpinball.com and you can check the article out. One of the buzz topics that came out of that particular visit was that while while Jeff was there they were celebrating and they meaning the deeproot staff about an 80s theme that they had landed or an 80s license that they had landed and I think Jeff said that so many people have been clamoring for. Do you have any idea what an 80s license that pinball community's been wanting that deeproot may have been celebrating that they had landed? I don't know. I think it was 16 Candles. How about you? I don't know. It could be 16 Candles. That's the first I've heard of 16 Candles being... I'm just being a smartass. Gotta throw, you know, throwing... All right. Throwing crap and seeing which sticks. Breakfast Club and Animal House. Well, Animal House was in the late 70s. Yeah, same difference. But yeah, close enough though. Right, right, right. I'm now
Zach Sharpe
person
Jeff Pattersonperson
Roger Sharpeperson
Robertperson
Seawitchgame
The Addams Familygame
Twilight Zonegame
Pinball 2000product
Cirqus Voltairegame
Houdinigame
Aerosmithgame
Pirates of the Caribbeangame
Revenge from Marsgame
Pinball Expoevent
Head to Head Pinball Podcastorganization
Stern Beatlesgame
Eric Meunierperson

market_signal: Recently released pinball machines experiencing faster depreciation than games from prior years due to increased supply and competition

medium · Ken and Bill discussing price drops on newer releases; attributed to Stern growth, increased manufacturers, faster release cycles

  • $

    market_signal: Classic Williams/Bally games (Twilight Zone, Addams Family, T2, Circus Voltaire) continue strong secondary market appreciation

    high · Ken and Bill discussing collector trends; Circus Voltaire example: $1,800 a couple years ago, now significantly higher

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Hosts debate whether industry is prioritizing safe rereleases and licensing over genuine playfield/mechanical innovation

    high · Extended discussion comparing Stern Beatles rumor (old playfield, new license) vs. genuine innovation; references to Pinball 2000 abandonment

  • ?

    industry_signal: Deep Root Pinball positioning as disruptive manufacturer challenging incumbent design and manufacturing practices

    medium · Ken expressing excitement about Deep Root's potential to shake up market; hosts discussing whether head design or other elements might differ from standard

  • ?

    product_strategy: Discussion of using limited edition/Kapow status to justify premium pricing and create investment/collection urgency

    medium · Ken proposing Beatles game strategy: set final manufacturing numbers, ask premium, encourage dual purchases for investment

  • ?

    historical_signal: Hosts reflect on Pinball 2000 as pinnacle innovation moment that was abandoned due to market/business pressures, questioning whether current industry repeats this mistake

    high · Extensive discussion of Pinball 2000 as 'arguably the biggest innovation in pinball history ever' that was discontinued after 2 games

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Bill Webb co-hosted episode of This Week in Pinball with Zach Sharpe

    high · Bill mentioning: 'Thank you to This Week in Pinball for letting me come on and co-host with Zach'

    • 13:12
    olmanto.tv I'm sure it would be terrible. Hopefully it shoots well. A weekend at Bernie's could be a real sleeper pin.
    13:47
    You never know. Yeah. Those are obviously channel markers. Right. So, I mean, who knows what it is? They talked about deeproot trying to figure out how to be able to, and I thought this was interesting, they were trying to figure out how they would be able to use smoke and sparks within a pinball machine for effects, I'm assuming on top of a playfield. And I'm assuming these are physical editions of Smoke and Sparks because that could be done virtually or on an LCD, no problem. So I remembered back to Scott Danesi's interview where he was talking about himself and Jay Brand, Banger Jay, talking about how they could figure out how to put smoke in a playfield. And it just, according to Scott, it was going to be basically impossible. So now this is something that Deep Root's looking to tackle. Well, it seems like Deep Root is trying to do the impossible on a lot of different fronts. I'm psyched up about it. I just, I really, really am. I think pinball can use some, I don't know, like renovating or some brand new designs or brand new- Revolutions. Revolutions, I think is what I'm looking at, that come into marketplace and maybe shake everybody up a little bit. Let's get out of our comfort zones. Let's see what else that we can do. We'll see you next time. John Popadiuk, Automated Amusements, raydaypinball.com, www.astron Hubert www.facebook.com Adam's Family and something else, I forget. Adam's Family, which was that collector gold edition, right? Yeah. That they put out another 1,000 units. Yeah. And again, we're just referencing all the information that we received on that Roger Sharp interview that can be found at Head to Head Pinball Podcast. Yeah, please listen if you haven't. I mean, it's... Yeah. Especially if you're into the history of pinball and stuff like that, and especially the 90s Bally Williams stuff, it was real fascinating to find out, you know... It was fascinating to me too that, I mean, a lot of the focus was on his thoughts, Roger's We're going to be talking about the first thoughts on current day pinball. That was refreshing to me because I think everybody kind of knows the Roger Sharpe story, the shot heard around the world, or the shot that saved pinball. But to kind of hear him talk about even pinball licensing, I had no idea how involved he's been in so many different machines for so many different companies. Well, yeah, he said he's done like 400 or 500 licenses in his time, including slot machines. It's amazing to me. Yeah. It's amazing to me. It's insane. Yeah. I mean, he's got to have so many connections. I love to be a fly on the wall during one of his negotiations of a license, but the way that he explained it too, you're not just sitting down and hammering out a license in a meeting. It's multiple meetings, it's multiple phone calls, it's... Multiple properties of the license. Yeah, being able to jump over an obstacle that's thrown in front of you because somebody thinks that the rights for something's not available when he knows that they are, so he's got to go to separate channels. I mean, the guy's just kind of a... And I love that. You know, honestly, I love people that say, you know, I've been told I can't do this. Now I have to do it twice just to prove these people wrong. Yeah. You know, I love people like that. So, you know, to hear him say, you know, now we just got to make sure to get it done just to prove a point. Yeah. I love that You know there not a whole lot in this world that can be changed if you know you dedicated and your sole intention is to persevere no matter what Well that the thing I mean and you specifically always mention if it a passion project if it a passion You have to have the passion in order to have the drive to keep going and to get up when you knocked down And to get better. You know, I mean, just... Great point. Running crap, you know, I say crap, but I mean, just rerunning kind of similar stuff all the time, you know, that's not a whole lot of innovation there. You're not setting the bar that much higher, which, you know, this kind of goes back to where we were talking about, you know, The pinball resurgence and revolution and all that stuff. You know, in the 90s, you had all these designers fighting with each other. Well, not fighting, but challenging each other. You know, camaraderie of, you know, oh, you know, top this. You know, I got a castle that blows up in my game, you know. Right. Suck a what, you know. Then you got Pinball 2000. Suck a what. You know, I mean, just these crazy features that you don't ever see anymore, or you don't see them as often. Out of the comfort zone.
    19:10
    The real major innovation that I think I really saw, and you could correct me because maybe I'm missing something, was going from the DMD to the LCD. And some people prefer the DMD versus the LCD, but now we have the LCD, let's master the LCD and what's going to be the next innovation in pinball? Is it going to be another type of a display on a head? It's got to be something within the gameplay. It's got to be something you can experience on the playfield. I want to see something different. And if I knew what that idea was, I would be so happy to throw up a homebrew and bring it to Expo and hope that somebody would help me manufacture it. But there's got to be something that's coming, something different, something new, something better. Well, here, let's look at it this way. So 19 years ago, or 20 years ago actually now, or well, coming up on 20 years, is when they started the Pinball 2000 project. Arguably the biggest innovation in pinball history ever, right? That's only, yeah, which they did two games and that's it. You know, part of me says, okay, if they could pull this off 20 years ago with the technology that they had then, how could we incorporate something like that and... With technology that we currently have. Yeah. Right. And make it even better. I mean, do you think that it's... And I would imagine a big part of it is just kind of keeping the bill of materials within a comfort zone that everybody's used to for their manufacturing. But when do you kind of reach outside of that comfort zone and take a risk? Get something. I mean, again, I'm loving what's coming out for the most part pinball wise. I'm not into all the themes and a lot of it feels very familiar, but sometimes something that's fun and familiar is okay. Yeah. But again, it'd be pretty nice to see something different. I do appreciate these catapult shots that we're seeing that we saw like an Aerosmith and that we saw recently in Houdini. And not to say that those have never been done before, but it was nice to see like a The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. It is always broken, but some of the best mechs are always broken. That's why when they, you know, they kick ass when they work. Yep. But, you know, it's got the spinning disc with the three balls that spins until, you know, the magnet releases. That's a, you know, kick ass... It is cool. ...toy in that thing. Right. It's just, again, and do we want to see more spinning discs in games? Maybe. I mean, Pirates of the Caribbean had the three concentric rings, which were, you know, kind of three alternating spinning discs in one. mer 이런 경기도 그냥, and that just didn't work out for now. I wouldn't be surprised if we see that again in the future down the road when that design, if it's revisited, gets perfected. Kudos to them for attempting it. Kudos to Eric for designing it. Oh yeah, absolutely. And kudos for them to realize that they could not put that out reliably, and they were looking long-term, making sure that they didn't put themselves in a bad spot. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. As a consumer, somebody that plays pinball, I'd like to see something fresh. And I think that is why, going back to deeproot, I think this is how we started this whole thing, I'm excited about the potential and the possibility of these guys coming in and showing us something different. Another thing in that article that Jeff had written was that he said that, you know, looking at the machine, it looked very familiar like pinball. And I'm paraphrasing, but he said, with the exception of the head or minus the head, maybe The head wasn't on the machine. He couldn't comment on it. Maybe the head is shaped differently. That made me kind of wonder what was going on. So let's take a second and think about the head. Is the head, and again, we're speculating guys. It's fun to think about what we want, what we think we might see. Will the deeproot head be a typical pinball head that we're used to, something that lines up nice in a row? Will the deeproot head be something that We'll be right back. The other thing I'm thinking is, what if it's like a, like, if you, if anybody's gone to a bar and they played a golden tee pedestal unit, you have kind of like this dual pipe or single pipe that's in the back that holds the LCD for your display. I mean, is it like a pinball table, so to speak, or a playfield that has two pipes coming up and the head, the whole head's an LCD? Like, would you be cool with that? Like, what do you think it is? What do you want it to be? What's not okay? What is okay? Alright, so Smart Money says that they're not going to differ from what the standard style head is. You know, even Houdini, it's got the funky edges, but I mean, it's still basically the same style head, in my opinion. You know, it doesn't function any differently, just they cut the edges a little different. You know, so if I were a betting man, I'd say it's probably a very similar style head to Williams, Stern, JJP, any of the current manufacturers. I think everybody was kind of decrypting what Jeff might have been hinting at with what he wrote. I don't know that he was hinting at anything. He was just going through his experience. So it's very, it could very well be that he saw a pinball machine that didn't even have a head on it. So he couldn't comment on the head. Well, yeah, I mean, here's the other thing. It could be like a golden tee where you got two poles. In all honesty, it could be like a revenge from Mars. You know, maybe he's got something crazy going on there. Oh, like a pinball 2000? We don't know. LCD projection on the playfield? Yeah, once again, pure speculation. We're just, you know, throwing crap. We're going to see what sticks in, you know, another couple months. But, you know, I mean, it's, there's so much innovation that can be had still, I think, you know, here. Williams Hyperball comes to mind. Wasn't a great selling game, but it was a cool premise. You know, Circus Maximus, you know, the playfield, the tall pinball game that Williams came out with a prototype. You know, I mean, there's just so many different avenues that pinball could go. To learn more about pinball, visit nerdfossemile.tv. lags Beare Thy
    27:10
    All right, guys, thanks for tuning in. I said Circus Maximus, it's actually Pinball Circus. Pinball Circus, okay. And Circus Maximus is the company that's trying to make those pins or whatever. Right. But, you know, I mean, just think about some of the crazy crap that you could do with a pinball now, you know, launching it. I think that there's so much more innovation that can probably be done at some point, and I look forward to it. I think it's safe to say at this point with Deep Root, for those that were concerned that this might be a virtual pinball adventure, it's not based on virtual pinball. Is there, are there virtual elements within the pinball machine? I don't know. I've really hoped that somebody would put augmented reality, which is like additive instead of deductive features. Maybe you're able to wear some glasses and still experience a pinball machine as you would without it, but you'd be able to add different elements in your peripheral vision or on a play field. I think that would be fun. I don't know what the costs are in that. Again, Bill, I apologize, because I think I've taken up too much time on this. No, but I mean... Total tangent, but push the boundaries a little bit. Give us something new. Let's get all the manufacturers on board trying to outdo themselves as you say that that happened in like maybe the 90s when pinball was rocking and rolling. Pinball 2000 had it not been during the fall of pinball where slot machines made more sense to build based on cost of materials, pinball 2000 should have saved pinball. And, as you can see, the people behind that Pinball 2000 project thought that they had saved pinball. Yes, they did. Easily one of the most, if not the most, innovative things that ever happened to pinball, especially during the time period, just never was built upon or expanded on because Williams pulls the plug. Well, you know, at the end of the day, they've got to make money. So, I mean, that part I understand. I don't blame that at all from a business standpoint. You know what I mean here I guess the biggest thing that kind of sucked about that whole deal was I mean they literally came up with something cool innovative and different and you know you're two games into this new feature that you know sky's the limit that you could kind of yeah attack the world with on this and they pulled the plug that's gotta it's gotta suck so bad and I think about it it's like listen you've got this task to do and if you don't do it you guys are all done pinball's done and then they do the task and be on some and then they ended up still being on the www.invisibility.com The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. Welcome to the Pinnacle of the Machine, a podcast that's a little bit more of a spin-off of the ACDC vault edition. I'm your host, Alan Kilmeade. I'm the host of the ACDC vault edition of the Pinnacle of the Machine, and I'm going to show you the rest of the industry that's coming up with this pinball machine. I want to talk about the pinball machine because I think it's a nice addition to the industry. The pinball machine is a machine that's also a great addition to the industry. It's a machine that's reputable and comes out with a pinball machine that actually works and is accepted by the community. It works, accepted, and it can produce. And that they can manufacture with a distribution model. I don't know the specifics on that, but it's healthy competition that could drive the rest of the industry to try to do a little bit more that's all i'm saying yeah am i happy playing uh... in a cdc vault edition absolutely that's a fun pinball machine am i happy playing uh... an attack from mars remake absolutely that's a fun pinball machine uh... and i think you know but here let's go this route to sell between that i think that there's room for both i think there's room for innovative pins as well as your standard style pins You know, I mean, there's speculation coming out about what the Beatles is going to be. And guess what? You know, if those rumors are true, which we're not here to say if they're not, they are or they aren't. What are you hearing on Beatles, by the way? That it's a re-theme of Sea Witch. Right. Okay. So, which I don't know if that's true or not, but that's just what's been, you know, speculated. I mean, that's information I think we've been sitting on for a while that I don't know that it's cutting edge or not. But, right, so let's talk about Stern Beatles. I mean, I think that's an interesting segue. Because here I am talking about let's push the envelope. Let's get something that's gonna be, you know, out of our comfort zone, something that we haven't seen before. It goes back to what is my grail pin? My grail pin is yet to be created because I just haven't been wowed on all four or five fronts. Now you've got Stern Beatles, rumored to be in the pipeline, rumored to be a Kapow title. This pin is one of those, almost like a Star Wars-like license. It's been requested or thought of by a lot of people, but maybe they never, it was never thought to have come to fruition, but now it potentially it's here, right? And then you pair it up with Sea Witch, which is what, a 1980 Stern? Yes. Okay. My question to you is this, whereas the classic Stern layout matches up with a classic The theme, do they potentially miss the boat on not designing something incredible and knocking it out of the park with a Beatles license? Or is it a brilliant marketing and manufacturing decision to revisit a 1980s Stern title, tweaking that playfield and putting it in bed with a Beatles license? You know, that'll honestly be something we just have to see. Read one. You said it perfectly. You have to wait and see. And I, if that actually is a, you know, a true rumor. I'm fist bumping Bill because I think that was the perfect answer. Thank you, thank you. Yep.
    33:58
    But you know what, here, I give them credit for actually trying to do something a little out of the realm and do something different. It is different by not doing anything different, if that makes any sense. Well, no, but it's going out here. All right, so let's go on. So what are they doing different? Well, they're using an older style playfield. Right. I mean, I think that's cool. In a popular older-style game. Yeah, and on this week in pinball, you nailed it. To the guy that's a big Beatles fan who thought that Sea Witch was the best game ever, dude, you know, he's got his, you might as well charge the most guys out there. There might be like six of those guys out there, yeah, but that's like a $50,000 game to that guy. But you're going to get it. Whatever it is though. I mean, dude, there's a reason people will pay X amount of dollars over a sticker on a car, because they have to have it. Period. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, you know, so here's one other thing that I've noticed. The prices of the newer pins aren't staying as strong as they were a couple years ago. The more recently released pins seem to be dropping value a little more frequently or in a little more abundance than they did years prior. I agree with you there. Supply and demand and you know supply is up now because you know Stern's grown More competition, you know more games are being produced more manufacturers and you're only a few months away So to speak from the next release so you're not as no. Yeah, I agree Okay, so now let me throw you this one So you have the abundance of the new games that are coming out, right? Which are you know, and you can rerun rerun those games kind of whatever you want as long as you get you know Relicense and whatever Yeah So they not really limited per se Okay You following me so far I got you Them being limited in any capacity isn really true because you could always come back and vault that edition. You could always rerun them for five years, however long you have them. Unless you come up with something, and for instance, if this is a Beatles Kapow title, Now, maybe you set final numbers on a manufacturer, manufacturing number and a distribution number and say that this is it, it will never ever be vaulted and we are going to ask a premium for this because if you buy one, you might want to consider buying two because you're going to want one for yourself and you're going to want one to stash away for an investment opportunity. Yeah. I can see where the limited edition makes sense. Yeah. But to your point, to be able to vault something, and vaults don't come like a year after release. They come when- Five, six, seven, whenever the demand is there. Maybe even like three, four, five years after the license is expired. If there's enough people that want a title and it makes sense for something to go back on the line, I completely understand that. And when I say vault, I'm not singling out Stern because let's look at CGC, their whole The new product launch has been based on running 20 year old plus games. Right. But all right, so now I'm going to throw, so this is where I'm kind of going with this now. Okay. So you have the newer games which are... You got the eye of the tiger right now. You're looking at me, I can see it. Yeah, we are. You're getting ready to take something down. We are, we are. We're passionate. We are passionate about this. All right. So you have... I love it. The old games now, which just keep climbing and climbing and climbing. Old games meaning like your Valley Williams games? Like your Valley Williams, your Twilight Zones, your Addams Family, your Fish Kills, your Getaways, your T2s, Frickin' Fishtails, Circus Voltaire. That thing was like $1,800 a couple years ago. Yes, they were. And now, you know, honestly, I had one and I had like 20 hits by the time I got rid of it. You just posted it and you were trending on Twitter. Astounded. I was like, you know, dude, I would love to just have some populated playfields, rip some cabinets and help some people out. But I don't, so I can't. Okay. But why is it that all these games keep increasing in value? I think it's pretty simple because people can't afford or there's a there's a demographic of the pinball community that just can't either afford or they can't justify the increased prices on the new in box releases. So your next best alternative is to get the best that was out there in the 80s and 90s. Now what happens is that force appreciates everything else as as new pinball titles are experiencing price increases. It almost like follows suit like a domino effect. That's it for de draft and now it's on a mission to play Ben . The most part in our area, and I might be just uninformed, $150, $200 was a fair price to offer on an EM. Now there probably have always been specific titles that have been more highly sought after. Well, yeah. But to get an EM for a couple hundred bucks, I mean, you're not even seeing that anymore. No. Everything's force appreciated. But is it the force appreciation or is it the fact that, yes, they made 15,000 getaways. How many of those getaways survived? You know, 7500 went to Europe, 75 stayed here for rough math, okay? Yeah. Let's just say that, you know, a little over a third of those are trash. We'll say that 45... I would think it's safe to say that almost half of those pins that came out in the 80s, 90s are gone. I think the Mr. Pinball price guide has even at a greater deterioration as far as pins that are still in existence during that time period. All right, well, let's go half then. You know, nice round number. Right. So, out of the 7500 that are here, 3750 survived. We'll see you next time. For sure. You know, so, and those are the games that are very simple that people don't have to have a master's degree to follow. And I think that's also part of what drives those values up is because literally you can walk in your basement and say, hey listen, here's this pinball machine, do you know how to shift the car? Which is also something that's going by the wayside, but if you did, follow the premise. Shift the gears up when you peg the RPMs up. Very simple to follow. Fishtails, simple game. Adam's Family, very simple. You know, hit the ramp, hit the chair, hit the ramp, hit the chair, hit the ramp, hit the chair. You know, going into the mode and actually trying to, you know, complete the mode is a different story, but you can go somewhere with it. So I almost think that that's part of the reason why these older games are getting brought up in value. Bill, I think we're both right, though. I think it's the rareness and collectability that you're defending, and I think it's the forced appreciation of new and box pins that I'm defending. I think the combination of both absolutely explains why we're seeing such an increase in pins. Now, I can, or as far as pin values, I can also say this, and maybe it's just from my perspective, and we don't have like a market trend segment to figure this out, but it seems like there is now starting to become a surplus of pins that are available. As I look at like for sale ads on places like Facebook Marketplace or Pinside, whereas before you might have seen like one or two examples of a specific title that you're looking at. Welcome to the AMU-Ted�Cast. The Out Pinball Podcast is brought to you by We Are Out Pinball. In the 2000s and 09s when you know people, you know, as long as people have play money, I think the stuff's always going to be worth good money. I mean here, shit, pardon my language, but Stargate. Is that French? Yes, yes. Chate? Yes, chate. Chi-ate? Chi-ate. Chicago. Sorry, for the ancient churros. Chicago. Yeah. Right. I like how you blended shit with Chicago. Nicely done, Bill. Way to, I'll edit all that shit. We, you know, leave it, keep it real. Shyrat! Keep it real for the people. Bitches! Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, we survive gunshots and make pinball. Holly Sheet. Yeah, we get... Holly Sheet-talky mushrooms. Holly Sheet-talky.
    43:26
    But, so, you know, but Stargates, going back... Oh, was Stargate? Stargates are going up in value. Yeah. You guys talked about that on This Week in Pinball. You know, they were... That was the pinball market trend. They were like $1,800 games. You know, one of our pinball buddies had one and he got it for like $1,500 and turned around and flipped it for $23,000. Couple quick shout outs for the pinball market trends. Zach, thank you so much for the segment and Dennis Kriesel, so sorry that we mentioned the segment. Yep, yep. That's a thorn in his side. He hates pinball market trends. So, you know, Stargates are going three grand. Shit, Baywatch is, you know... Princess
    44:33
    Back in the day. Yeah. Getting back to Stern and Beatles, though, the next rumored title in line for Stern is Munsters. Yep. So let's take a break for a second and let's think about what's happening. You have Munsters Pinball, or the Munsters Pinball theme, that Stern is working on. I guess they're working on it. I mean, nobody's told me that they're not. Nobody's told me that they are, that I can say, hey, they're working on it. Yeah. But I think we can, you know, guess that, yeah, they're working on Munsters. Well, there's been enough thrown out on the wall that says that that's, but yeah, go ahead. Right. So most likely from what we're hearing, Stern is working on Munsters, Beatles they're also working on. There's also been a topic of conversation that has said that potentially Beatles may be released before Munsters, The Out Pinball Podcast is brought to you by Monster Bash Remake. Out Pokemon We're currently on the line at Spooky. Spooky theme, right? Yup. It's a nightmare freaking castle. Yeah. Then you've got Monster Bash Remake, which ironically is a George Gomez game who is- Runs. Who runs Stern for, you know- All intensive purposes. Exactly. His remake- Well, he runs game design. But yes- He's a bigwig. Yeah. You're right. So when you think Stern, you think Gary, you think George. Yeah. And George is awesome. George is a great guy. Nice guy. Met him a few times. Help me out with some Transformer stuff. Cool. I hope to meet him at Expo because I've only heard good stories about George. So you've got Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle, you've got Monster Bash, potentially colliding within the same couple months. Now if I'm Stern, do I say, you know what? I'm going to go ahead, I'm going to take my Monsters theme, also a spooky, haunted kind of theme, and I'm going to throw it up and hope to dominate the market share of those prior released machines, assuming that Monster Bash gets released before Monsters. Or do you say, you know what, why try to share the pie when we can pull back Munsters, we can throw Beatles into the mix. Not have any competition. As far as theme collectors go, there's probably not a huge cross segment where if somebody wants Alice Cooper or they want Beatles, I mean... Yeah, you're not going to have a whole lot of competing... Almost couldn't be further apart. So if you're Stern, Bill, and assuming both these games are ready to get on the line... Yeah. Do you throw monsters in with Monster Bash remake and Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle or do you hold back monsters and do you throw beetles in which should also kind of carry you into the Christmas season? Okay, so honestly, so I'm going to answer this kind of like, you know, college days, right? So when you're in college, are you the first one at the party or are you like being one of the last ones at the party? I've been the first and the last. Okay, and which was a better experience? It depended on what was going on. Let's get started. What's going on? Normally you want to be- Last. Yes. Or one of the later ones. Exactly. For a good reason. Monster Bash is a 20 year old design and unless you're absolutely in love with that theme and you really just want the nicest example, I could see that maybe going out a little sooner, but then again we also had that discussion a few minutes ago where people like the older themes. You have Alice Coopers, you know, once again, especially for the people that like, you know, to have the new shiny toy, I could see that also not staying long. And then you have, you know, the last one of the party being the Munsters. So you know what, if I were in those shoes, that's exactly the way that I would do it. If you're, if you are Gary William Webb Stern, what are you releasing next? Beatles. Well, if it was actually, you know. Considering the circumstances. Now the other circumstance or the other way, like devil's advocate way to looking at this is that what if people that are holding their money because they weren't in on Alice Cooper Nightmare Castle but they want like a haunted theme or a scary theme. So they waited on that because they wanted to see the Monster Bash reveal. Let's say Monster Bash comes within the next few weeks or whatever, month or two or three. Or three. And they see Monster Bash and they're like, okay, I'm gonna buy one of these two unless Stern shows me something crazy on Munsters. So now that money is still kind of tied up. And then Munsters gets pushed back because Beatles gets thrown out there and they're like, well, you know what? I'm just gonna go grab an Alice Cooper. I'm just gonna go grab a Monster Bash. Like, I can see both sides of this. I guess what makes more sense from a release schedule? And let me ask you this. Whatever they reveal, if it's Beatles or if it's Munsters, do we see it at Expo? I don't think so. Why? Because the last couple of years they haven't released the games at Expo. Right. You know? So, you know, and I'm just going off of, you know, pure history at this point. You know, they were working on Guardians of the Galaxy last year right before Expo and they didn't release it. The last reveal we saw at Expo was the Batman 66. It wasn't flippable. It was in the, that was during the Stern anniversary party. Correct. And that was kind of roped off, but they did put that on display. That also was a Kapow title.
    50:35
    Here we are a few years later. We have potentially another Kapow title in Beatles with Stern. Do they throw that in the corner at Expo and rope that thing off? Why? Why would you? I don't know. All you're going to do is take it. Why wouldn't you? Well, because then you're just going to take it out of the chin if the programming's not, if it's not complete. But it wasn't there for Batman. And the theme of Batman was so sought after. Everybody that wanted a Batman 66 bought a Batman 66. It was. And how much crap did they take because it wasn't flippable? And code-wise. You know what? And they can... You're right. It came... Dude, it's done a whole 180 since then. Exactly. Lyman Sheets literally... They've learned their lesson though on that. I don't think they'd like to do that again. I don't think they want to relive that moment. What if that thing's coded? What if that thing's already ready to go? If it's coding ready to go, absolutely. What if Lyman or Dwight or Tanyo or Lonnie or whoever's there, like they've all collaborated and they've got this thing ready to rock and roll and it's just sitting there and what if they can pick? What if they can pick Beatles behind the ropes at Expo or putting Munsters behind the ropes at Expo? I mean, which one commands the bigger attention from the public? I mean, selfishly, I'm not somebody that's a huge Beatles fan. I think it would be fun to see Beatles and I think it'd be fun to kind of have that nostalgic music. The Sea Witch re-theme doesn't call to me, but I haven't seen the pin yet. And the reason that I say that is because I'm not, I've yet to kind of get into the classic Stern titles and ballet titles of like, you know, the early 80s. I'm still enthralled with seeing like the classic Bally Williams titles of the 90s and The new Stern and Jersey Jack Pinball and American Pinball releases of the 2000s, that's where I'm at collectively. I think Terry from Pinball Life, when he was on the show prior, said it best. He's like, everybody that gets in, they want to see what's new. They want to see what's new. Then when that becomes dormant, you always revert back. What I took out of that was you're more experienced people in pinball. I don't claim to be experienced of 20 years in pinball collecting. I don't. I've been in pinball collecting, you know, 10 or 12 years tops. So I have not hit that stride where I can appreciate those titles as much as somebody else. So, again, it's like, I think Munsters probably makes sense for me to want to see. Yeah. But does Beatles make more sense from a release going against two other themes that are also horror themed? You know what? In all honesty, I'd let it ride out that way. I would let it ride. Which way? We're, I'd have Beatles come up first. Beatles? You know, if that's, if that's on the table, you know, we don't know, we really don't know what's going on, but. I mean, we all live in a yellow submarine, we don't know what's happening. Yeah, exactly. Oh shit. Oh, yeah. Good times. Yeah we about a little bit too long on that one but So it to be exciting Now since we talking about Expo Bill if you don mind first of all if you hung with us this long on the podcast, we completely appreciate it because we're just, we're kind of sounding off today about a bunch of different titles and topics and we like it. Well, we're excited because Expo's coming up. There's, you know, it's good times. You know, anyone that goes to Expo, we've definitely got a plug, you know. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of Iowa Public Television which is solely responsible for its content. I think it's so important because to Bill's point, when we go to these pinball expos, at least the last few years, our intentions are to try out new games, but we end up talking with people and it fascinates us and we make connections and we exchange numbers and we're buddies across the country. I mean, long distance relationships, Bill. Yeah. But it's just so damn fun. So let's do this. Let's take just a couple minutes and let's go expo. We will be, uh, what's the first day we will be at Expo? Uh, I'm dropping a game off on Wednesday. So you are going to be there Wednesday? Just to drop a game off. What does that mean, drop a game off? Um, so I'm bringing Transformers, um, LE to the Penn Stadium booth. Oh, so you're going to have an LE there? Yeah. Sweet! Um, so that'll be, uh... At the Penn Stadium booth? Penn Stadium booth. So I imagine, like, a Penn Stadium will be installed there? Yeah, they're going to put a Penn Stadium kit on it. Okay. So I'm looking forward to seeing that. Scott's bringing a lot of games and he's got a lot of games that are going to be in that booth. So that should be... Scott, the owner of Pin Stadium. Of Pin Stadium, yeah. So that's Wednesday. That's Wednesday. Okay. And then Thursday, you and I are going up to Vendor Hall at... Well, we're going early, but we'll be there at 6 when it opens. Right. Actually, we'll be in there a little while, you know, beforehand talking. Yeah, for sure. So, right, so 6 o'clock when the Vendor Hall opens.
    56:22
    You will be searching for the hot deals because you're that kind of a guy. Absolutely. Yeah. So if you see me and you got something cool, let me know. Yeah. Bring in cash. Yeah. And we're both bringing cash to the expo. So after the vendor hall is open for two and a half hours, 830, the first kind of excitement as far of a seminar standpoint or a real standpoint happens with American Pinball. And they will have What's Happening at American Pinball. And I believe that's hosted by American Pinball on staff. So I'm assuming we're going to hear from like Joe Balcer, probably Josh Kugler and Nermal and anybody else that's on staff there. I don't know if they're going to have an open forum discussion, but if everything goes as planned they will be revealing something. Oktoberfest. Well, we know it's Oktoberfest, but we don't know what version of Oktoberfest it is. You tend to think that it's something that will be a little bit more complete cosmetically, and I'm just curious to see what happens. So that is going to be fun because we've been talking Oktoberfest for a long time. We're excited to see it, and the speculation that we had tonight on the podcast will no longer be speculation for the most part after we hit this seminar. So for those of you that will be in the area on Thursday around 8.30, jump in the expo, hit the seminar. I mean, jump in there for 30 minutes. It better be the pinball party of the century because I gave Nermal some tips. Yep. If he didn't take advantage of any of those, then it's on him. I'm going to have to apply for the pinball strategist. Party strategist. The pinball party strategist. I'm sure that they can make that a seasonal job right around time at Expo. Right. You know, every release, pinball party strategist Ken goes in and takes care of the reveals. All right, so that's going to be Thursday. Then Friday. Friday is a busy day. Friday's crazy. So coming out of St. Charles, we are about 25 minutes away from Pinball Life in Huntley. Now Pinball Life, Terry and Margaret, they are hosting like the pre-Expo party is what they normally kind of refer to it as. Yeah. But this year they're in cahoots with Expo. Well, we got a break there because they are doing the same party the day before, just not as... You don't need tickets for the free admittance to the party the day before, which is that Wednesday. Yeah. So if you're planning your days... Or that Thursday. We'll see you next time. We're working together with Pinball Expo, Rob Burke and team to kind of mesh these two parties together versus competing against one another. And I think that's a huge step forward for Chicago Pinball Expo because you're going to be seeing vendors that are going to start coming in that haven't been there prior. So kudos to Terry, Margaret, Rob Burke and Pinball Expo for that kind of team setup. So we're going to be, I think at Expo, it opens at 12. We'll be there at noon. And I think we're going to stay until maybe 2, 33 o'clock. Yeah, because we have something else going on after that. So yeah, so now we shuttle over to Expo in our car, which is about, I don't know, what is it, 35, 40 minutes probably to get from Huntley to Wheeling? Depends on who's driving, but yeah. And it's not me, so it's probably a lot faster. So like 20 minutes. So like 12 minutes, getaway style. So then we roll in there. The Out Pinball Podcast is a production of WGBH. The commercial establishment, we weren't hanging out at Heavenly Bodies. No, no, no, no, no. Okay. So, I just want to make sure. This is documented in internet history. I don't need this as for divorce proceedings going forward. Anyways, so... Yeah, we're going to Expo then. The big thing that night that we want to hit is the Deep Root seminar, which is at 515 at Expo. Now, normally we would get to Pinball Life and we would stay till six when they close. And we were there for a little after hours last year. And that was super, super fun. I'll say this, Pinball Life and the entire staff there, they know how to throw a party and they know who their target audience is during that party. So for those that have tickets on Friday, it's going to be awesome. So those that are going in on Thursday for the free kind of admittance, you're going to have a good time too because you're not going to have to deal with the Friday craziness. So we hit the Deep Root seminar at 5.15. Now after the Deep Root seminar, that's where it gets interesting. We will have seen or gotten to know a little bit more about what's going on at Deep Root, I'm hoping. That will be fun conversation within itself. We are now unleashed into Expo for that Friday night. Now, that Friday night, we want to talk to as many of our buddies as we can. I've even got some high school buddies that are coming up. I was talking to a guy I went to high school with, Dave Fahlgren, who's a local guy. We both went to Conant. I have to say this. I saw Dave post yesterday, I think it was, that he finally got his grill pin of a getaway. So I want to say congratulations to Dave for getting a grill pin. Yeah, I've got to hook you guys up because I know that's your baby too and he's got some minor plans for his. I don't know that he's going all in on his like you are. But Dave's going to be there. The cool thing, and again, nobody's interested in this except for myself, is he's bringing a buddy of mine, TJ, from high school that I haven't seen in years. And that guy, I mean, I can't wait to see him. And it's just cool because like I'm going to Expo. I know already I'm going to see people that I want to rekindle moments with. And that doesn't even take into account all the people I've yet to meet. Yep. And those are going to be vendors, fellow podcasters, people that are on pin side where I want to try to get a face with a username, people that might listen to the show. I think it'd be so fun to just kind of shake those people's hands and be like, man, thanks for listening. Thanks for supporting us because obviously without the listeners, it doesn't make any sense for us to do it. We're not heavy on notoriety, so to speak, but it's just nice to know that we're appreciated And that maybe the 30 to 60 minutes that we fill in somebody's drive to work or something like that is appreciated. I think it's awesome. I appreciate knowing about that. So if you see us... Yeah, feel free to reach out. Tell us what you feel, you know, what you think. Well, tell us all the good things you feel. No, tell us... If you've got bad things, you know, say, you can reach us at the Special Unlit Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. Yeah, well, if you've got bad things, it's SpecialUnlit at AOL.com. Yeah, we're at Hotmail. I'm just so pumped about it. Now, our buddy Bruce Miller, who is the vice president of marketing at Two Brothers Artisan Brewing, potentially we may have a keg of Two Brothers Pinball Pale Ale in our room, in our hotel room, because we have a room that night. So we're trying to figure out a way to where we can have a tasteful after hours party throughout that Friday night of Expo where people can come up, introduce themselves, say hello if we haven't seen you for a while, and give us a high five and a hug if we've been buddies for a while. And grab a beer or two, we'll have some plastic cups. We will be checking IDs for those that look under 55, so there will be no illegal disbursement of alcohol, but I think that has potential to be fun. We get to kind of just crash at Expo that night. We don't have to worry about driving at that point. It doesn't make any sense. And then the next morning, I'm assuming the hotel probably throws us out by 10, right? So we can probably stumble, hopefully, to a Continental Breakfast somewhere and jump into that free play area. That might be the only time we get into the free play area. We'll see. But, I mean, man, I'm totally, totally psyched up.
    65:24
    I just, I want to appreciate, I just appreciate being able to go. Oh, yeah. So, let's do this, Bill, and this will be kind of fun for the listeners of the show.
    65:38
    We have, we will have in the show, because we are supporters, Special Winly Pinball Podcast, Ken Cromwell and Bill Webb. We are firm supporters of Pinball Expo. We support everything that they're doing. We are doing our best to promote this show in order to make it the best pinball experience on the planet. All these pinball machines come out of Chicago for the most part. This is the, as you know, what? Dave would say it, it's the capital. It's the capital, right? If you see our special when lit pinball podcast banner at the show, I'm going to ask you to do this. I'm going to ask you to have somebody take your picture next to the banner. You post it on our Facebook page. That's you next to the Special Inlet Pinball Podcast banner. It's going to be a tall vertical standing banner floor so you'll be able to get in there. If you're able to go ahead and upload that, we're going to have, and I'm not going to announce it right now because we're still working out the details, we're going to have an unbelievable prize pack. We're like morning DJs out. We're going to have an unbelievable prize pack on Sunday, Sunday, Sunday. No, we're going to have an unbelievable prize pack that we're going to award randomly to somebody that posted their picture next to our Special Oil and Pinball Podcast banner. And if you want to upload that to another place, whether that's your own personal web page or Facebook page, that's awesome. Instagram, whatever. Yeah. Every time we see that that was displayed on your social media, we're going to give We're going to give you an entry and I'll tell you what, our last contest was a Steve Ritchie, Dwight Sullivan autograph Star Wars Translite which I thought was a really, really cool prize. Nermal and American Pinball, they've offered to go ahead and give away an Oktoberfest autograph Translite for our next contest and that's just by you posting any pinball related picture that you personally took on our Facebook page, you will get an autograph Translite by anybody that's on staff at American Pinball. Now those are both great prizes, right? Yep. But they're not the best prize. Because you know what the best prize is? We're going to figure it out. Yeah, we're going to tell you soon. It's going to be unbelievably fun and off the hook. And all you need to do is put yourself in front of that Special When Lit Pinball Podcast banner at Expo and take your picture and post it on our Facebook page, which is Special When Lit Pinball Podcast. And if you post it anywhere else, we're able to track that, absolutely give you some more entries. We're not a contest-driven show, but in all honesty, we really are starting to thrive on interaction with our listeners, and we want you guys to feel comfortable sharing pictures and thoughts with us and on our Facebook page, and this is just one way for us to do that. Yeah, we really do enjoy the interaction and getting to know everybody, you know? So yeah, please definitely do that, post it, and let's see what you guys win. You got any predictions for Expo before we end the show? Anything you think you're going to see that you didn't think you were going to see? Anything that you didn't want to see that you're going to see? I'm just thinking that the smart person, in my mind, would go across the street to Tilted Kilt or Twin Peaks. Twin Peaks, yep. Get them to come over and take a picture with the banner. With them. Or take the banner to Twin Peaks, right? Well, please don't do that. Don't remove the banner from Expo. Yeah, yeah. The banner, so full disclosure, if the banner winds up missing, this contest we can't do. The pinball business that can sign the banner and we'll ask you to do so. If you're a designer, if you're a coder, if you're an owner, if you're somebody that contributes to pinball, sign that banner. At the end of Expo, let's take that banner down and let's raffle that banner off for charity with all the signatures, maybe to Project Pinball or another charity. That's something that I think would totally be unbelievable. Love to do that. I think we should absolutely do that. In fact, maybe I'll start reaching out to the manufacturers and see if they don't mind just throwing a signature on there. Again, to benefit charity, especially pinball-oriented, benefiting charity I think is super important for what we all do, what we all believe in, what we all want to work towards going forward. It's not just helping ourselves, but it's helping others, and I think that's a great way for us to try to contribute to do that. Definitely. Awesome, man. So I think on that note, we should call this an episode, man. This has been good times today. I think this was a fun episode 17, Bill. Thank you so much. You've been the best co-host that I could ever have, man. We try. Especially on a Tuesday. I know, right? We got a Tuesday. Six days away from Expo now. I can't wait to experience this with you, and then I have to talk you into going to Texas Pinball Festival because I've had multiple people ask if we are both going to Texas Pinball Festival. We'll see. Family obligations might prevent, but we'll see. I totally understand. Hopefully I don't have to represent for both because I cannot hold a candle to your physical well-being. Yes you can. You can drink 50-50s for me. Oh my gosh. No problem. Not allowed to drink the 50-50s. All right. Well, on that note, we'll let you guys do your thing. Have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day to play some pinball for Bill Webb. I am Ken Cromwell. This is the special When Lit Pinball Podcast. So long, everybody. Subtitles by the Amara.org community