Episode 914: "Who's Holding Haggis Deposit Money?"

Kaneda's Pinball Podcast (Patreon feed)·podcast_episode·21m 9s·analyzed·Feb 12, 2024

Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Kaneda holds Deep Root Pinball accountable for broken Fathom/Centaur timelines and deposit scheme opacity.

Summary

Kaneda delivers a scathing critique of Deep Root Pinball's repeated failures to meet promised deadlines, specifically calling out the company's July 2023 claims that Fathom production would be complete by year-end and Centaur would enter production in January 2024—neither of which materialized. He examines the deposit structure (non-refundable, often held by distributors like Flip N Out Pinball), questions the escrow claims made to customers, and argues that Deep Root's lack of transparency, refusal to do factory walkthroughs, and pattern of overpromising constitute a "robbing Peter to pay Paul" financial model. Kaneda criticizes both the company and customers for entering these agreements, while praising competitors (Chicago Gaming, Spooky, Dutch Pinball) for superior execution and transparency.

Key Claims

Deep Root Pinball promised in July 2023 interviews that all Fathom games would be completed by end of year; as of mid-February 2024, they have not been completed and no public statement was made.
high confidence · Kaneda, opening segment: 'seven months ago in July, every single media outlet gave Deep Root Pinball the stage to talk about Centaur Revisited...he said to every single media outlet that we are on track to finish all of the Fathom games by the end of the year...It is now mid-February. Are they done with the Fathom builds? No, they are not.'
Distributors (specifically Flip N Out Pinball, Nitro, and Red & Ted's Road Show Pinball) were told they would hold Centaur deposits in escrow and not send money to Deep Root Pinball, but the current custody of those funds is unclear.
medium confidence · Kaneda: 'There are people on Pinside who put deposits down with distributors. When they put those deposits down with the distributors, they were told that none of their money was going to Deep Root Pinball, that that deposit money was going to be held in escrow...So then that begs the question, who's holding the money?'
Deep Root Pinball told customers with Fathom orders that delivery would take eight weeks, but actual wait times have exceeded eight months.
high confidence · Kaneda: 'when he's asking people for Fathom money, he tells them you're going to have your game in eight weeks. And people have waited longer than eight months.'
Deep Root Pinball has not conducted any factory walkthrough or transparency demonstration despite other manufacturers regularly doing so.
high confidence · Kaneda: 'Did he bring on more people? How did he create more efficiencies? Has he opened up the door to the company? Has he done a walkthrough like Dutch Pinball did, like Spooky Pinball's done?...January came and went. They didn't open up the door. They didn't show you that Centaur production is happening.'
Centaur is being offered at $10,000 to $17,000 (Oblivion Edition), with Kaneda questioning market demand given the company's track record.
high confidence · Kaneda: 'a game that is $10,000 and $17,000 for the Oblivion Edition...How are you going to sell Centaurs at $10,000 to $17,000 with all the other stuff happening in the pinball world?'

Notable Quotes

“It is now mid-February. Are they done with the Fathom builds? No, they are not. Did they say they were done with the Fathom builds? No, they have not.”
Kaneda @ ~4:30 — Core accusation establishing Deep Root's failure to meet stated deadline
“If you went in on a Centaur deposit seven months ago, you need to have your head examined.”
Kaneda @ ~7:15 — Blunt criticism of customers who ignored Deep Root's history
“Why can't Deep Root Pinball just be honest? Why does he always have to spin these timelines? Like just tell people I'm going to need your money in full and the wait is going to be six to eight months.”
Kaneda @ ~14:45 — Questions Deep Root's transparency and pattern of misrepresentation
“There's nowhere to hide anymore because that's why the threads are blowing up is because people are just fed up and more people are going to talk and share their stories and share their disappointment.”
Kaneda @ ~24:30 — Notes emerging community backlash on Pinside forums
“If I'm these gentleman and I took someone's money and I still have the money, I would cancel the orders with Deep Root Pinball and give the person his money back.”
Kaneda @ ~18:15 — Recommendation to distributors on how to handle refund requests
“This is probably the last time I'm ever going to talk about Deep Root Pinball because you know how I feel. I think if they continue to do it like this, there is no way they're going to keep the lights on for much longer.”
Kaneda @ ~25:00 — Suggests Deep Root may be facing existential financial challenges
“People actually shipping games to their customers. People paying in full and getting their product within a month. What a novel idea that is.”
Kaneda @ ~27:30 — Sarcastic contrast with other manufacturers' execution
“Everything's a rumor until I see it before my own eyes.”

Entities

Deep Root Pinballcompany Kanedaperson Zach Sharpeperson Robert Muellerperson FathomproductCentaur Revisitedproduct

Signals

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business_signal: Deep Root Pinball exhibiting signs of potential financial distress; Kaneda predicts company cannot sustain operations if current practices continue
medium · Kaneda: 'I think if they continue to do it like this, there is no way they're going to keep the lights on for much longer and they can't hide anymore'
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community_signal: Pinside forum threads about Deep Root Centaur deposits blowing up with upset customers demanding refunds; Kaneda notes these threads are exploding as a result of unmet promises and deposit uncertainty
high · Kaneda: 'So the reason why this thread is blowing up is there are people on Pinside now who are tired of the wait...people are just fed up and more people are going to talk and share their stories'
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community_signal: David Van S (Labyrinth) appeared on Saturday Morning Spectacular for unboxing/congratulatory coverage; demonstrates media/community engagement strategy around proper execution
medium · Kaneda: 'David Van S joined our Saturday Morning Spectacular. That was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun having everybody congratulate him and the company on how to launch properly'
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competitive_signal: Competitor manufacturers (Chicago Gaming, Spooky, Dutch Pinball, Labyrinth, American Pinball) positioned as executing superior delivery/transparency; Deep Root isolated as outlier
high · Kaneda: 'Everyone else who's selling new in box games right now has figured out a way to get games made and get them to customers with much more transparency, much more efficiency, and much less headaches'
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Topics

Deep Root Pinball deposit/refund crisisprimaryManufacturer transparency and accountabilityprimaryFathom game production delays (missed end-of-2023 deadline)primaryCentaur Revisited announcement and deposit structureprimaryNon-refundable deposit industry practicessecondaryDistributor role in deposit custody and escrowsecondaryStern Metallica Spike 3 new release rumorsecondarySecondary market oversupply (Venom, Premium Edition)secondary

Sentiment

negative(-0.92)— Kaneda is extremely critical of Deep Root Pinball's failures and misleading practices. While he praises other manufacturers (Stern, Chicago Gaming, Spooky, Dutch Pinball, Labyrinth) for proper execution, the overwhelming tone is one of frustration, disappointment, and anger at Deep Root's repeated broken promises and lack of transparency. He expresses contempt for all parties involved (company, distributors, customers) and signals this may be his final commentary on the company. Only the passing mention of upcoming shipments from competitors provides minor positive sentiment.

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.063

I guess one of those decisions is they can order directly through your website or they can go through their distributor. And I say their distributor speaking from my perspective being in the U.S. I can speak to Zach at Flip N Out Pinball, and he's taking the deposits, but I'm also hearing murmurs that they're not non-refundable. So I'm guessing he's taking somewhat of a risk there because normally deposits would go directly to you guys, correct? Correct me where I'm wrong here. Educate me. Yeah, look. Well, the default is – yeah, correct. The default is that refunds are non-depositable. Deposits are non-refundable. Get that the other way. Which again, as we know, we're not setting a precedent on that. We're not the only company to do that. And so the deposits, that's basically to hold your position, your spot, and the rest isn't due until the game is in a box. Yeah, again, so look, the intent always is when the game is sort of scheduled, basically when it's three weeks, two to three weeks out from being boxed, it's the same sort of scenario. We get the final balance payment, we do the final part of the assembly and final testing, put it in a box and ship it. So that's the intent. Again, that was always the intent with Fathom. It's just things happen, I guess, and manufacturing's tough and there's all these things that sort of impact our ability to do what we've needed to done. And so those timelines started to shift. It was never the plan, and it was just the way it went. And again, as I said, I feel very confident about where we are now, and I'm hopeful that that's going to be the case. My opinion on the whole thing is that, like you said, you're in a better position now because we're getting out of the whole COVID-19 thing. So now you're able to start getting those parts, and now you're able to start pumping machines out. And I think over time, as you prove, especially if you can prove to your word that you're getting all your fathoms out by the end of this year, I think especially if you get that done, then there's going to be a lot more faith in your pocket right there from the public right there. Oh, official. Welcome, everybody. Happy Monday after the Super Bowl. I always feel like today should be a national holiday. Raise of hands. Who's exhausted? I felt like I was watching that game for an entire month. I think the better team won, you know, but I'm just exhausted by the whole thing. All the food, all the waiting, waiting for halftime. You know what I'm also exhausted about? Haggis Pinball. We're going to talk about it right now on this episode. We're going to talk about what's going on with the company, with the people who have put deposits down on Centaur Games. You know why I need to talk about this stuff? Because nobody else will. It's like seven months ago in July, every single media outlet gave Damien and gave Haggis Pinball the stage to talk about Centaur Revisited, a game that is $10,000 and $17,000 for the Oblivion Edition. Everybody gave him a platform. Everybody was waving some nervousness around, right? Why are you taking deposits on your next game when you haven't finished the Fathom games? And he said to every single media outlet that we are on track to finish all of the Fathom games by the end of the year. That is why I played that extended sound clip at the beginning of the show. Okay, so seven months ago, all these people interview you. You say all this stuff about things are going better. We're not going to run into the same delays we had with Fathom. And even Kaneda said, I'm going to fall on my sword. if this company finishes the Fathom builds by the end of the year. It is now mid-February. Are they done with the Fathom builds? No, they are not. Did they say they were done with the Fathom builds? No, they have not. Are there still people who are waiting for their Fathom games? Yes, there are. Have any of the people that covered this company seven months ago, have they followed up? Let's use their own terminology. Have they revisited this story? Where is it? Where is everybody following up with all the promises that Damien's been making over the years? When you go back and you listen to him, right? How transparent he was when he was taking your money all over again. And so the reason why this is a show topic this week is simply this. There are people on Pinside who put deposits down with distributors. When they put those deposits down with the distributors, they were told that none of their money was going to Haggis, that that deposit money was going to be held in escrow. I believe that is what they were told. Now, look, I'm not absolutely sure because they also went in on these deposits knowing all too well that these were non-refundable deposits. I'm going to do a little bit of victim blaming right now. if you went in on a centaur deposit seven months ago, you need to have your head examined. Even if you were a newbie in the pinball world all you had to do was ask somebody just ask somebody who in the community Hey I thinking about ordering this game in July of 2023 from a company in Australia called Haggis Pinball What should I be aware of? And immediately anybody would have helped you out. And even if you just went on Pinside and read the threads, it is not being smooth sailing for this company. And you better be prepared to wait a significantly long time, much longer than Damien keeps saying. And even in that interview with Kerry Hardy, for some reason, this guy just can't get over the fact that when he's saying things are going to take weeks, what he really means is months. You know, even in that clip, he says, we're not going to ask for payment in fall until your game is ready to ship in the next few weeks. Weeks, people. And when he's asking people for fathom money, he tells them you're going to have your game in eight weeks. And people have waited longer than eight months. months. And so I keep wondering what's changed. Did he bring on more people? How did he create more efficiencies? Has he opened up the door to the company? Has he done a walkthrough like Dutch did, like Spooky's done? Like heck, even Pinball Adventures did a walkthrough of their company. And still, January came and went. They didn't open up the door. They didn't show you that Centaur production is happening. You have no clue if games are going out in Q1 of 2024. They might trickle out. I don't know. It shouldn't even be a question. If he finished production of Fathom at the end of the year, he should have made a statement. He should have said, we're all done and we're moving on to the next game. And here is the production line of Centaur. We didn't see that. Okay, so the reason why this thread is blowing up is there are people on Pinside now who are tired of the wait. They went in on a deposit. And again, I'm gonna victim blame. They never should have done it. They should have just waited, but they did it. Okay, so let's just go down the journey these people have to go through now. So imagine if you're them. You gave a $1,000 deposit on a Centaur like seven months ago. Seven months have come and went. Now, part of the reason why you gave that deposit is because you heard Damien being interviewed. You heard from your distributor friends. You heard stuff that felt promising, that they were making a game a day. They were going to finish the Fathoms by the end of the year. Okay, so I'm willing to give you a deposit. So you go in on the order and you also were hearing that your money is not going to go to haggis. And that's a really important part because the reason why people were giving deposits, feeling like it wasn't going to go to haggis, they did not want to enter into a scenario where we're robbing Peter to pay Paul. There was a lot of concern and I still feel like, you know, we're never going to get the full truth here that they needed to get centaur deposit money to get enough capital to finish the fathom builds. Why else would they ask for money so far in advance? Nobody else does this. Nobody else is asking for money on a game seven or eight months before it's on the line. Nobody. Is Dutch Pinball asking for deposits right now on Alice in Wonderland? Are they? Does Spooky Pinball ask for money eight months in advance? No. I mean, the longest timeline we see is maybe some companies have a couple of months between reveal, you got to put your money in, and then the game's going to go on the line. But the only companies that are doing that are companies that are reputable. And I know everyone's always saying, well, what about Chicago Gaming Company, right? They asked for deposits on Pulp Fiction and they did. But here's the big difference, people, between giving Chicago Gaming Company your deposit and Haggis Pinball. Well, the first difference is this company has shipped thousands of games, thousands. Haggis Pinball hasn't shipped thousands of games. And also, you're not going to be asked to pay in full for your Pulp Fiction until your game is ready to ship to the distributor. You are not going to have to pay in full for your Pulp Fiction and wait eight months. I have a deposit in on a Pulp Fiction. I've had it for almost a year now. I'm not worried about it because I know they're not going to ask for any more money until my game is going to be mine. And when I pay the remaining balance, I'm not going to then go on an entire another eight month wait for the game. Do I like the fact that Chicago Gaming Company reveals a game a year in advance and takes money? No. Why do they need the deposit money a year in advance? I don't know. I can understand how small boutique companies might need to get a sense of how many orders they have so they can order parts because they're not ordering in bulk. I understand all of that. But through this entire process, people, the part I will never understand is why can't Damien just be honest? Why does he always have to spin these timelines? Like just tell people I'm going to need your money in full and the wait is going to be six to eight months. And this is just where we are at. He knows this. There's no reason why anybody should be making excuses that he is emailing people or he's looking them in the eye and saying, if you pay in full, you're going to have your game in eight weeks. Why would he say that? And at what point does that become completely misleading? And I don't know, is that not a lie? So now you got people who put the down all right Imagine you these people Seven months have gone by You don hear any statement about Fathom being done In fact, you're hearing the opposite. You go on Pinside and you're hearing from all these people that are still waiting for their game. And it's mid-February. And all of a sudden you're like, wait a minute. I gave money because this company said they were gonna be done with Fathom by the end of the year. They also said that Centaurs would be in production in January. Now, all of a sudden, I don't feel so good and I don't feel like waiting another eight months for my game because if they haven't even asked me for payment in full and history has shown us that once you pay in full, that just is the beginning of your eight-month wait for your game. I don't want to be in on this anymore, okay? So that's where these people are at. Now, all of these people who want a refund, they also did sign an agreement that it was non-refundable. So look, I'm somewhat torn on which side to be on here because on one level you had distros saying we're not going to send your money into Haggis. All right. On the other end, you signed an agreement buyer. You were giving this money over in a non-refundable fashion. And then you've got the manufacturer saying they're going to have all the old games done by the end of the year. And then the new games are going to be on the line in January. So it's like all three of those things are colliding at once. and then if you look at it from a distance, you're like, okay, well, wait a minute here. Let's just apply some common sense. I get it. I get that these people signed a contract. I get that a lot of that contract and goodwill was based on what Damien was saying. I get that distributors were also trying to instill confidence in people to secure all that deposit money because you gotta think what everyone's in this for. The distributor's in this to make money. They wanna make money. They wanna secure as many deposits as possible. The manufacturer is in the same boat too. They need to sell as many deposit spots as they can because they need that capital to order parts, to pay vendors, and yes, probably to finish some of those Fathom builds. So they want your money too. If you're the buyer, if you're the consumer, I don't even understand why you put any money down. You know you don't need to rush and get the game. All you had to do is look at what's happening with Fathom. You can go get them today, new in box, for less money than they were new. Why would you lock in your money with a company that has a history of doing nothing but blowing by their estimated dates? So when I look at it like that, I'm kind of like, shame on you. It's a little bit of victim blaming, but you should have known better. Okay, but now we get to the current day. So someone's got $1,000 with a distro. The distro has said they're not sending any of the deposit money to Haggis. So then that begs the question, who's got the money? who's got the haggis deposit money right now did that money go from distro to haggis or does the distributor still have it and if the distributor still has someone's money why won't they just refund them right damien has not held up his end of the bargain why then does the customer now have to be punished again they believed what you said when you gave the timeline and you blew by it again. I've been saying this since July. I think this whole thing just reeks once again. We've seen this before. It's another robbing Peter to pay Paul financial business model for the company. I don't think it was a good move for any distributors to get in bed with this kind of company because all you're going to do is have upset customers. Everyone else who's selling new in box games right now has figured out a way to get games made and get them to customers with much more transparency, much more efficiency, and much less headaches. Because here we are, how soon until Damien starts asking for people to pay in full when he hasn't shown us anything? He hasn't shown us how many games they're up to a week. He hasn't shown us or proven to us that fathoms are done. And if I were any of these distros, right, you've got Flip N Out Pinball, you've got Nitro and RS Pinball. Those are the three distributors for Damien's games. If I'm these gentleman and I took someone's money and I still have the money, I would cancel the orders with haggis and give the person his money back. Because at the end of the day, what's the point of holding on to it? It's almost like at the point now where it feels like everybody's in breach of contract with this company. Everybody, nobody's staying true to their word, right? Even the customer asking for a refund is them not staying true to their word because when they signed the deal, they said, I'm not going to ask for a refund because I'm giving you money in a non-refundable fashion. The distributor, if they sent the money to Haggis, and I don't know if they have, but if they did, then they did not stay true to their word because that's the reason probably why they don't want to give you a refund. And Haggis Pinball just hasn't stayed true to their word ever in this entire process. And Canada's Pinball Podcast has to be the only one talking about this stuff. And I get it. Most of you don't care. Most of you sometimes hate the fact that I go on these watchdog shows and I keep these companies accountable. But who else is going to do this? Who else is going to do this? There's just too many companies executing so much better than this. And look I said it seven months ago If Damien could stay true to his word then we would have a new chapter in Haggis pinball and he would finally accomplish something he said he was going to accomplish And that was finishing the fathoms by the end of the year. At what point, ladies and gentlemen, are we not allowed to say, OK, once again, you've failed once again, what you said didn't come true. And not only that, there's no more correspondence. He's not corresponding with people. There's no transparency whatsoever. He still refuses to open up the company door, walk around on Facebook Live and just show us, Damien, how many people are working there? How many people are your employees? What is the manufacturing capabilities look like? Everybody else who's asking for money and deposits and being paid in full can have the common courtesy to do that for their customers. But you can't do it. And Damien and all the distributors and all of you guys who are buying these products, shame on all of you. All of you deserve each other. And this is probably the last time I'm ever going to talk about Haggis Pinball because you know how I feel. I think if they continue to do it like this, there is no way they're going to keep the lights on for much longer and they can't hide anymore. There's nowhere to hide anymore because that's why the threads are blowing up is because people are just fed up and more people are going to talk and share their stories and share their disappointment and how this whole thing is operating. And you best believe they did not sell a lot of centaurs. How are you going to sell centaurs at $10,000 to $17,000 with all the other stuff happening in the pinball world? There's just not enough demand. I don't see how they get this done. And look, if a few days from now we see some centaurs going out the door, I'll retract everything I just said. But until that day, I want to light this flame and not let this be buried under the rug. And that's it. I mean, look, I know 98% of you are like, Canada, nobody cares about Haggis. Move on. The big news of the week, Spike 3 with Metallica, a brand new designed game. A lot of conversation around that. I think that's going to be an exciting moment for Stern Pinball. Let's see what changes come in the Spike 3 format. A lot of debate on whether or not we need a new Metallica game. And it's a split camp, people. Some people just want the old game made again with newer stuff and newer technology because it's such a good game. Some people are really excited for a brand new Metallica who don't own the old Metallica machine. So we'll see if this game is the next game or the game after next. We'll see if Kenaid is even right. I mean, look, everything's a rumor until I see it before my own eyes. We're gonna get Looney Tunes and Texas Chainsaw Massacre shipping to customers this week. Look at that, Damien. People actually shipping games to their customers. People paying in full and getting their product within a month. What a novel idea that is. We're going to get more people unboxing Labyrinth Machines. It was super awesome. Got to give them a shout out. David Van Es joined our Saturday Morning Spectacular. That was a lot of fun. It was a lot of fun having everybody congratulate him and the company on how to launch properly and all the successes they've had so far this year. You know, we got all these Pulp Fictions being boxed up and making their way out the door. This is what we want to see. You know, these things are really expensive. Who wants to go on a nightmare ownership experience? The next few months are going to be like, who's ever executing properly is going to get your money. Everyone else, it's not going to work. And there's just so many games, right? Elton John, Jaws, Pulp Fiction. Stern's still got hundreds. Trust me, people. There are hundreds of Venoms sitting in boxes that need to find homes. There are a lot of Stern premiums sitting at distros without homes, people. Don't think everything is Jaws now. I mean, every day there are pinball boxes piling up. Every day more people are making pinball. And all those games need to find a home. And at these prices, people, I'm telling you, the coolest seat in the house, the best place to be, just wait it out. Trust me, within six months you're going to be able to march in and get whatever you want for a price that's better than it is today. Trust me, Canada out. Let's just play some song. Who knows what this is going to be later? We'll be back. Thank you.