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The Super Awesome Pinball Show - S1 E22 - American Pinball

The Super Awesome Pinball Show·podcast_episode·1h 51m·analyzed·Jan 4, 2021
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TL;DR

Stern confirms Godzilla, reveals restrictive EULA; hosts discuss American Pinball with exclusives.

Summary

The Super Awesome Pinball Show Episode 22 features an interview with David Fix about American Pinball, exclusive news on Stern's Toho Godzilla game confirmation, discussion of Stern's controversial EULA regarding streaming and homebrew code, Texas Pinball Festival's 2022 cancellation, and hidden Hobbit flipper codes. Hosts Christopher Franchi and Christian Line share recent machine acquisitions (Beatles and Jurassic Park Pro) and announce exclusive flipper code placement in an upcoming featured game.

Key Claims

  • Dwight Sullivan of Stern Pinball confirms Toho Godzilla game is in production with statement 'mud wrestling was involved' regarding internal team competition

    high confidence · Direct quote from Dwight Sullivan on Pinside under username 'Zachary' confirming Godzilla production and design team interest

  • Stern's new EULA requires prior consent for streaming gameplay and threatens to brick machines using unauthorized code

    high confidence · Direct quotes from EULA included in episode discussing streaming restrictions and homebrew code consequences

  • Texas Pinball Festival officially cancelled for 2021, rescheduled for 2022

    high confidence · Announcement by Kim and Ed Vanderveen confirmed on-air

  • Eric Martin (Jersey Jack Pinball) revealed secret Hobbit flipper code never previously disclosed to public

    high confidence · Posted in Jersey Jack Pinball Facebook fan club; specific flipper sequence provided (L7-R1-L1-R1-L13-R1-L5-R2)

  • Christian Line and Christopher Franchi received exclusive flipper code placement in upcoming pinball game

    high confidence · Direct statement from hosts indicating verified arrangement with game manufacturer

  • Cointaker customized Jurassic Park Pro machine with shaker motor, color-changing back glass lighting, speaker lights, amber shooter rod, and premium décals

    high confidence · Christian Line describes detailed customization performed by Cointaker staff (Chris and Melissa)

  • Beatles machine delivered to Christopher Franchi had connection issues with middle drop targets and node board

    high confidence · Franchi reports George Gomez spent 45 minutes to 1 hour on phone troubleshooting issue on Saturday

  • Stern's EULA was pulled/removed after initial release, likely to be rewritten with more legal language

    medium confidence · Hosts speculate EULA was withdrawn for legal revisions based on community feedback

Notable Quotes

  • “We never grab licenses without plans to use them. Many of us have wanted to do Godzilla for a long time. I cannot speak to when the game will be made or who will be working on it. All I can say is that mud wrestling was involved.”

    Dwight Sullivan (Stern Pinball) @ ~15:30 — Official confirmation of Godzilla game in development; 'mud wrestling' references internal team competition over design roles

  • “You will not stream your gameplay of your Stern Pinball machine without Stern Pinball's prior consent.”

    Stern EULA (quoted by hosts) @ ~20:45 — Direct from licensing agreement; raises streaming legal risks for community content creators

  • “Use of unauthorized content or unauthorized software may result in your Stern pinball machine ceasing to work properly or permanently and or losing access to Stern pinball's online game network.”

    Stern EULA (quoted by hosts) @ ~22:15 — Threat to brick machines for homebrew code use; major concern for mod community

  • “It's all a character just trying to have fun and entertain you guys. I'm actually not an asshole most of the time.”

    Christopher Franchi @ ~4:30 — Meta-commentary on on-air persona; addresses listener feedback about abrasive tone

  • “Is it still surreal to you that you have George Gomez as your IT guy?”

    Christopher Franchi @ ~9:15 — Highlights access to legendary designer for troubleshooting; casual relationship with industry icon

  • “They tricked this pro out with a shaker motor, a gorgeous color-changing back glass lighting kit, which is exclusive to the Cointaker guys, some speaker lights and an amber shooter rod.”

    Christian Line @ ~11:30 — Detailed description of premium customization; demonstrates sponsor relationship depth

  • “If games start to get bricked, you better believe people are going to be taking this a lot more seriously. And Pinside might just explode.”

    Christopher Franchi @ ~28:00 — Prediction of community backlash if Stern enforces machine bricking threats

Entities

Stern PinballcompanyDwight SullivanpersonChristopher FranchipersonChristian LinepersonGeorge GomezpersonEric MartinpersonCointakercompanyTexas Pinball Festivalevent

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Stern EULA generates significant community backlash over streaming restrictions and machine bricking threats; speculation about enforcement and community response

    high · Hosts discuss potential for Pinside forum explosion if bricking occurs; note EULA was pulled for potential revision

  • ?

    community_signal: Hosts receive exclusive flipper code placement in upcoming pinball game; indicates manufacturer relationship and community recognition

    high · Direct confirmation from hosts that code has been verified and will appear in featured game

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Stern Godzilla expected to embrace playful, humorous tone of Toho-era films (1954+) rather than serious modern interpretations; design philosophy informed by franchise history

    medium · Christian Line's detailed analysis of Toho-era Godzilla as protector of Tokyo with comedic monster-fighting sequences suitable for pinball adaptation

  • ?

    event_signal: Texas Pinball Festival officially rescheduled to 2022 due to pandemic; organizers prioritize safety over event execution

    high · Direct announcement by festival organizers Ed and Kim Vanderveen

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Toho Godzilla license limitations restrict game design to original 1954-era film franchise; modern MonsterVerse (King Ghidorah, Mothra) not available to Stern

    high · Christian Line explains that Stern has specifically licensed Toho Godzilla, not modern Sony/Legendary MonsterVerse variants

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.334

0:00
Merry New Year! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! I am Nanja Ibuko, exchange student from Cameroon! Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Bolli! I am Ali! Beef jerky time! You want some beef jerky? Oh please. No more goddamn jerky beef. The party's over. The party's over? Hey, come on. What do you mean the party's over? Very good, yeah. Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.
0:42
The following is an ad-hoc radio production. TV. It's the Super Blossom Pinball Show. That's right. It's time for your favorite pinball show. With your favorite hosts, pinball artist Christopher Franchi and Dr. Pee and Cell Christian Lyne.
1:13
Also a rotating gallery of bonus co-hosts of Fight Things Up. Sponsored by Chicago Gaming Company, home of your favorite top quality pinball remakes like Monster Bash, Medieval Badness and more.
1:28
visit chicago-gaming.com. And by Cointaker.com, distributors of new in-box pinball machines, mods, accessories, LEDs, and much more. That's cointaker.com. Also by backgalleycreations.com, makers of the most amazing pinball mods, black barrel pinballs, and the easy-slide playfield sports system. That's backgalleycreations.com.
1:50
Hello, all you pinball rock stars out there. Welcome to episode 22 of the Super Awesome Pinball Show. I'm Christian Line, and on today's show, we've got an amazing interview with David Fix and a special mystery guest where we talk all things American pinball. There are some major exclusives that you'll hear first on our show. We've also got the pinball in the news segment, including Stern's end-user license agreement and a confirmation on a major title rumor. Our last two weeks in pinball, and we also cover our contest winners and tease our next episode. And I do all of this with my amazingly talented co-host. He's not an asshole, even though he plays one on TV, Mr. Christopher Franchi. Fuck you.

  • “The Toho Godzilla is a certain Godzilla that's much more playful. And that's what they have. They don't have the choice between, oh, we get, you know, the modern one or the one that Sony made back in the 90s.”

    Christian Line @ ~17:45 — Analysis of Toho license scope; implies licensing constraints on modern Godzilla MonsterVerse

    • Ed Vanderveen
    person
    Kim Vanderveenperson
    Zach Minneyperson
    Gary Sternperson
    Roger Sharpperson
    David Fixperson
    Tohocompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    The Hobbitgame
    Beatlesgame
    Jurassic Park Progame
    Pinball Networkorganization
    David Dennisperson
    ?

    licensing_signal: Stern's EULA reveals licensing pressures from IP holders (Disney, Marvel, Warner Bros) requiring streaming restrictions and homebrew code controls

    high · EULA includes specific prohibitions on streaming without consent and warnings about unauthorized content affecting licensed assets

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Industry Awards announced by Pinball Network; alternative critics' choice format addressing perceived void in industry recognition separate from Whizzies

    medium · Hosts describe award format as recognition of unique contributions rather than 'best of' competition; organized by Zach Minney

  • ?

    announcement: Jersey Jack Pinball's Hobbit game includes previously undisclosed secret flipper code easter egg revealing hidden functionality

    high · Eric Martin revealed specific flipper sequence (L7-R1-L1-R1-L13-R1-L5-R2) on Jersey Jack Facebook fan club

  • ?

    product_strategy: Cointaker performed comprehensive customization of Jurassic Park Pro with premium aftermarket components including shaker motor, RGB back glass lighting, speaker lights, themed shooter rod

    high · Detailed list of specific upgrades installed at Cointaker facility; build date Dec 21, pickup Dec 23

  • ?

    product_concern: Beatles machine delivery with node board connection issues on middle drop targets; personal troubleshooting required with George Gomez

    high · Christopher Franchi reports 45-60 minute technical support call with legendary designer George Gomez

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Godzilla game confirmed in development at Stern; 'mud wrestling' comment indicates internal design team competition

    high · Official statement from Dwight Sullivan confirming production with qualification 'I cannot speak to when'

  • ?

    technology_signal: EULA streaming and homebrew restrictions potentially enforceable through machine bricking, creating legal jeopardy for streamers and mod community

    high · Explicit EULA language threatens permanent machine disablement and loss of online network access for unauthorized code

    • 2:28
    You know, I say that, but I'm just kidding. Actually, I felt that we needed to do some damage control because our listeners out there are starting to think that I'm a real dickhead because I'm always doing this like, God damn it, fuck you, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. You know, it's all a character, people. It's all just a character just trying to have fun and entertain you guys. I'm actually not an asshole most of the time.
    2:49
    But anyway, Christian, wow. You know, I would say the thing that I'm most excited to talk about this week is our past few weeks in pinball because both of us have got some pretty big nuggets to drop. We absolutely do. Do you want to cut into that first or do you want to cover our last episode a little bit? Because we did have some really good feedback from our alien reveal. We just wanted to thank, again, you know, the pinball brothers for giving us the exclusive on that. And just to follow up, I think we've heard some pretty impressive news that they have done extremely well with sales. Couldn't be happier for them. And I know Cointaker is hopefully going to get one in early 2021. So I'll be making my way out there ASAP when it arrives. And we're not done bringing you exclusive pinball news and interviews. So look forward to a little bit more on this episode. And over the next few months, we have some great stuff lined up. Yeah, definitely. Got a lot of great feedback, a lot of people reaching out. So definitely wanted to thank you guys for taking the time to let us know that you're enjoying the shows and the interviews. Not going to lie, it's been a lot of hard work over these holidays. which is tough because that's the time when you kind of want to sit on your ass and have some hot chocolate and watch the Heatmiser and shit. You've got to win that turkey, Chris. Yeah, well, there was no slowdown on news and information, so we just had to keep running with it to make sure that we got all that information out. When people come to you and they say, hey, we want you to tell our story, we're certainly not going to say no and help out where we can and get exclusive information out to people. So things have been going really good with the podcast and the feedback and all that. And, yeah, definitely thanks to the Pinball Brothers for picking us. And also thanks to Gary Stern. Great feedback from that interview as well. And, yeah, we're looking forward to it. We've got another big one coming after this. We've got the man who saved pinball, Mr. Roger Sharp, coming on, and we'll talk about that a little bit more later on. But let's hit the ground with our past few weeks in pinball. Hit that theme.
    4:36
    Our past few weeks in pinball. Christian, these are the kind of past few weeks in pinball that we both want to share because usually it's like a fix-a-pop bumper. Yes. We both got brand-new machines over the holidays. I got myself my replacement Beatles, finally, and you got yourself a what? Jurassic Park Pro. Yeah, it was a birthday present from my wife that kind of turned into an early Christmas present. So it was a pretty phenomenal week for us. Why don't you go into your Beatles story quickly? Well, yeah. We'll get to the bad part, and then we'll get to the good part. Let's start with the good, man. Start with the good. Well, we're not starting with the good. Beatles showed up, and it's not working properly. There's something wrong with the connection of the middle drop targets and the node board. Mr. George Gomez was kind enough to personally sit on the phone with me for 45 minutes to an hour on Saturday and try and hammer this thing out, and we couldn't get it yet. He didn't have a game in front of him, so he was just like, check this, check that. Is it still surreal to you that you have George Gomez as your IT guy? As much as you know, the sad thing is, I mean, I absolutely appreciate George taking his Saturday to spend it with me to try and figure this crap out. But I don't think of it like that. I don't hang up the phone and go, oh, my God, George Gomez just tried to help me. You know, I work with these people and I worked with them in the past and all that. So they're just kind of like friends. It's like calling up a friend. And I mean, I guess, you know, that sounds a little spoiled. Yes, but still very cool, man. Yeah, it's cool. I mean, I'm very grateful when I'm dialing that number that I know I can call George. But, yeah, so we're still working on that, trying to get that panned out and get the thing. I mean, other than that, the thing is, you know, great. But to the good news is that maybe you want to tell people, you know, I always joke about how you get everything because you're a rotten bastard. Dr. Pin, Dr. Pin!
    6:27
    Why don't you tell people what your Jurassic Park came with thanks to the fine, fine sponsors over at Cointaker? Yeah, I can't even sugarcoat the fact that they are amazing people, and they pimped this thing out better than any pro I think I've ever seen. It's all because Chris and Melissa are just amazing people, and part of what they put in the game was a birthday present for me. But I'll tell you what, man, I've never had a more positive pinball experience than when I went out there. They tricked this pro out with a shaker motor, a gorgeous color-changing back glass lighting kit, which is exclusive to the Cointaker guys, some speaker lights and an amber shooter rod. There were decals on the outside and inside of the game. Green super bands, mirror blades. I could go on, man, but I don't want to upset you. Like the ramp stickers, like, oh, I'm already here. Dr. Ken! Dr. Ken!
    7:18
    But yeah, it's phenomenal. And what was crazy is that the build date on this game was December 21st, and I picked it up on the 23rd. So it was basically a brand new game. Also, a huge shout-out to our friend and grill master, Zach, who was out there as well. He helped get the game set up. and gave me some of his amazing grill seasonings as an early Christmas present. Zach's our official cook at the tailgate party. Yes. Best steak I think I've ever eaten was at the Cointaker tailgate party. So kudos to Zach. And so thank you to everyone at Cointaker for taking such good care of me and just being generally awesome people. I was going to say they're the greatest sponsors, but they're the greatest people. They're just amazing. Can't say enough nice things about those guys. 100%, man. And when I was there, we actually played Guns N' Roses, and guess who still has a high score up on that board? No, Sarah? Where did she? Oh, man. Really? Your picture was up there. You were the My Michelle champion. The My Michelle champion. Okay, whatever that is. I know that's a song, but so that's a mode, like a particular mode I'm a champion at? Yeah, yeah, you got the high score on it. The reason why I'm probably still the champ on that song is because nobody picks it. That's right. Everyone's picking where I sit here.
    8:24
    But I'll take it, whatever, as long as I'm, you know. Yeah, also this week in pinball, I guess we can say that we packaged up and we are shipping out our stocking winners. That's right. Everything is all good to go. I am probably going to be going to the post office. No, sorry, not the post office. I'm going to go to UPS on Monday and drop that off to get shipped. If I drop it off to the post office, you might see it in August. Who knows? So anyway, look for that. We should get some pictures of some very happy people sprawling out all of their goodies on our Facebook page. And if you didn't think of doing that, do that because winners need to show off, damn it. Yeah, that's right, man. I sent my stocking winner. It's actually more than a stocking. It was like a giant box full of awesome shit to the winner of my contest. And hopefully he'll get it soon. Congrats again to Scott Elliott. And as mentioned in the last episode, everyone who sent us a card is going to receive both a pin family Christmas card and an amazing, super awesome pinball t-shirt that is courtesy of Cointaker Pinball. So thanks for sending us your shirt sizes. Huge thanks to Chris and Melissa at Cointaker. By the time this episode airs, they may have already received them. So post some pictures if you get them. And unfortunately, if I get any cards after this episode has aired, the contest has kind of ended. So if you have sent a card, we really appreciate it. But I can't guarantee that you'll get a shirt because I know this is kind of a time-sensitive thing for the Cointaker folks. But thank you again for everyone who sent us some love. Yeah, that was fun. You FaceTimed me when you were at Cointaker, and Chris and Zach were bent over the machine, you know, working on putting all these expensive goodies in your machine, and they both had on their super awesome shirts. It was cool, man. It's got the logo on the back, so, like, they're hunched over, and all I see is two big logos. I'm like, nice.
    10:07
    Solid T-shirts, really, really soft, and they've got sweatshirts, too, man, that are amazing. So these guys are going all out for us. Yeah, definitely. So pinball-wise, I think that wraps up. That's all I really had time for. Like I said, the Beatles, the playfield's flipped up, and we'll get that thing running. But other than that, let's move over to pinball news. All right, let's do it. And now, pinball in the news with your super awesome eyewitness news crew.
    10:35
    Don't fucking just read news off the internet, you fat piece of shit. First up in the news, Mr. Dwight Sullivan of Stern Pinball confirms that Toho Godzilla is coming from Stern at some point. He did so in a quote that he posted on Pinside under the Pinside name Zachary, which is spelled X-A-Q-E-R-Y. And in conversations people were having about some of the licenses that Stern has in abundance, some of them get made, some of them don't, and where Godzilla fell in that. Dwight corrects some people who didn't feel Godzilla was going to be made by saying the following, and I quote, We never grab licenses without plans to use them. Many of us have wanted to do Godzilla for a long time. I cannot speak to when the game will be made or who will be working on it. All I can say is that mud wrestling was involved.
    11:26
    End quote. So apparently people were battling over who gets to do different jobs on this game over at Stern. That all but confirmed it. Yeah, I mean, to basically put out something that doesn't say a lot, but at the same time does. I mean, he's confirming, one, that they're doing it, too, that it's soon enough in the pipeline that they've discussed it amongst themselves, and they presented it to the design teams, and they fought over it. So someone came out the victor. Someone's working on that. You said, I cannot speak to when. Otherwise, you would have said, I cannot speak to if. Right. You said when. So that means it's happening. Yeah, I mean, it's exciting that they're going to put a license like that to good use, and hopefully kind of put to rest the argument that they just went after this to keep it from spooky and just to shelf it. You know, I think a lot of people are excited about that license. It's a great license. I know a lot of the younger people that didn't grow up with all of those movies are like they don't understand the Toho era and they want like the modern day Godzilla and all that. But the modern day Godzilla isn't fun. I mean, it's enjoyable to watch. I love the movies, but it's not quote unquote fun. Whereas the old 70s Godzilla movies were very playful and humorous at times, and I feel that would be much more entertaining to make a pinball machine out of. Plus, you've got a huge arsenal of villains to use, whereas in modern day, they just started the Monsterverse for the new Godzilla, so all you have is King Ghidorah and Mothra, and that's it. Well, so you're obviously familiar with this as kind of your wheelhouse. So what were some, I know Mothra, what were some of the other villains that Godzilla took on? Oh, God, I'm really bad with the names, but there was, there's Rodan, which was sort of like a pterodactyl kind of a creature. There was a spider. I forget the name of the spider, but there was a big spider. Oh, boy, you would have to put me on the spot, wouldn't you? Was this done for like an adult movie going audience or was this more like it almost sounds kind of like the Hot Wheels kind of thing? It started off as a serious movie. Godzilla, the first Godzilla came out in 1954, black and white movie, and was extremely serious. It was all based on what happens when you, the Hiroshima bomb that the U.S. dropped and the after effects. You know, of course, it was all fiction. But, you know, they're basically saying that caused the radiation to create this creature. And that was very serious. But then they kind of started slipping into kids movies. Yeah. Where, you know, Godzilla wasn't destroying Tokyo. he was trying to protect it. So he kind of became the protector of Tokyo and all these monsters would come out of nowhere and he'd have to beat them up so that they wouldn't crush the city. So do you think with a stern Toho that Godzilla would be a good guy? Yeah. I mean, let's say strictly based on the first movie, which would be dumb, because then you lose out on all the extra characters. It would have to be. Towards the end, Godzilla started getting a little bit more serious, But the Toho Godzilla is a certain Godzilla that's much more playful. And that's what they have. They don't have the choice between, oh, we get, you know, the modern one or the one that Sony made back in the 90s. They don't have that choice. They have the license for Toho Godzilla. That's the original movies. And that's it. So, like I said, unless they pick a specific movie and, you know, kind of go in more of a serious direction, it's probably going to be more fun and playful. That actually is more of an interest to me than making it try to be a serious pin. because at this point it's aged, obviously, and the animation is not realistic. So, you know, you almost need to make it playful to make it fun. Yeah, I mean, there's this theme that I've seen over and over on, like, you know, on GIFs and on YouTube where Godzilla's fighting somebody and he has a helper. Like, you know, one of the other monsters is helping him out. So this monster is holding this other monster with his arms behind his back. And Godzilla runs and jumps, and he ends up in a laying position with his feet forward, and he just coasts through the air. There's no gravity, so he's not slowly descending. He's just going perfectly horizontal through the air, and he ends up kicking this monster in the chest. It's the funniest thing you'll ever see. It's like the WWF with monsters. Yeah. I mean, like, I need to see that on the LCD screen of this game, you know. Nice. The whole idea of Monster Island, you know, that comes into play where you can have almost kind of a Jurassic Park type layout for your game, you know, where you've got different parts of the island and different monsters and all that kind of stuff. So, you know, I mean, they don't have to play it up too hokey, but it's still, I have the feeling it's going to be a very fun Godzilla game. And I'm looking forward to it because that's my wheelhouse. That's the Godzilla I grew up on. So I'm really excited to see what they do with it. Cool. Yeah. The way you describe it has got me much more interested in the title just because it seems like more fun. Yeah, I think you just did some marketing for that game. All right, on deck, the next item up is Stern's End User License Agreement. And I know by the time this airs, this thing is going to be beaten to death. But it's raising some eyebrows, man, because just prior to Christmas, there was a code drop for a number of games, so including, you know, P.A.P.S., Cancrusher, Avengers, and Star Wars, and a bunch of other titles. But one of the things that came with those code updates was a new EULA, which is End User License Agreement. It has some things that made people a little bit wary. So the first item was streaming. This is actually from the end user license agreement. In view of the rights held by third party owners of authorized content, music and video, you will not stream your gameplay of your Stern Pinball machine without Stern Pinball's prior consent. So anyone who wants to stream a Stern Pinball game now has to get their consent. And it just seems a little bit far fetched and kind of a blow to streamers, especially if they actually act on these legal threats. Right. You know, Jack Danger is going to be fine because he works with Stern and they're going to give him the okay. But what about the guy, the Joe Schmoe at home who wants to stream these games? Yeah, the strange thing is that you'd think that Stern would be okay with this because it just markets their games, could potentially be reaching new viewers, and helps to sell games. So unless they pay a price for copyright infringement somehow, which I don't believe would be the case, I don't really understand. That's got to be it, right? They have to be worried that these licensors are going to see people streaming games that maybe in a way that the licensor isn't happy about. And Stern just does not want to be on the hook for that. And that may be all it is. Maybe Stern's not going to reach out and punish you, but they're saying, look, we're covering our own ass because we're responsible for this game. So if you do it, you're on your own. You're going to pay the price, not us. We told you no. And that goes right to the homebrew code that they also touched on, which said you will not use or install any unauthorized content or unauthorized software. Use of unauthorized content or unauthorized software may result in your Stern pinball machine ceasing to work properly or permanently and or losing access to Stern pinball's online game network. So, you know, people out there freaking out that you do something to change these games and Stern is going to brick your multi-thousand dollar game. Like, that's no bueno, man. No one is going to sign up for that. So you have to imagine that Stern is not so dumb that they're going to actually carry out these threats. But it is certainly a good way to point and say, hey, Disney, we told these guys not to do it. So, you know, we're not on the hook. Well, yeah, because if somebody changes the code, you know, number one, you don't have, you know, like Guardians of the Galaxy. I know there's code out there where they have the actual actors' voices in there. You know, Marvel's going to be like, wait, we didn't clear that. What the hell's going on there? Or, you know, you've got Willy Wonka and somebody, you know, changes the audio and it's like, fuck you or whatever, you know. Warner Brothers is going to be like, why is our Willy Wonka game saying fuck you, you know, because somebody felt like putting it in there and thought it was funny. That can be a problem. And if you're, I mean, if you've got it in your house and you're just like, ha ha, isn't that funny? Yeah. But if you're streaming it with your changes, I can see that being a huge problem. I get it. And like Gary said on our show, if somebody like Warner Brothers has a problem with that stuff and it gets to be an issue, they're just going to go to Stern and go, you're not in control of your product. You know, for whatever reason, you haven't been able to put a lid on people changing things. You know, our stuff is just running amok out there with crazy stuff that we didn't approve. We're not going to give you a license anymore. Right. And that's going to be a big blow. So something's got to give. I think you nailed it. And I think overall, this is pretty much CYA for Stern. They've got to be under a lot of pressure from their licensors to protect their assets. And they're given access to a lot of stuff that is proprietary. And if someone streams an altered game with assets from a movie or album that Stern didn't get permission to use, that could bring up some unwanted attention and questions their way. So I'm hoping that it's just protecting them from that. And it's really only as scary as how they enforce it. So we'll have to see what's being done in the future with them and how they do that. You know how people are. If you don't have a serious threat, they won't care. Whatever. They don't give a shit. Right. That's why I hate people because they just don't care. So if you don't say, look, if you do this, this is what's going to happen. If they don't believe that to be true, then they're just going to do whatever the hell they want anyway, and the problem doesn't get solved. I also heard that this licensing agreement was pulled. Oh, really? Yeah, that either they yanked it to make some changes or something, but it's gotten pulled. So something may be going on there. Don't know. My best guess is that it's going to become more legal. Lawyers are going to be involved, and this is going to be put into a more, rather than a friendly like, hey, please don't add your own fuck you lines to our pinball game, or we might have to get mad. It's going to become a, well, this violates the blah, blah, blah, blah, and the 974 code of the blah, blah, blah. You know, that's probably what's happening. I don't think they didn't pull it because it's going away, because they changed their mind. They put it out there. They put it out there because they wanted it out there. So it's going to come back. If it got pulled, it's going to come back, and it's just going to be more legal, I would imagine. It's getting crazy out there, though. I mean, with streaming being risked to be a felony, you know, going to jail over streaming pinball is just so crazy to me. And the companies don't see that. I mean, and it's going to be very similar to what pirating music, you know, the threats that they used to make about pirating music. It's going to be extremely rare that they would enforce these threats. But if you are someone who is doing this a ton, and especially if you're profiting from it, then I think that these threats could become reality. But I'll tell you what, man. That's the key, yeah. If games start to get bricked, you better believe people are going to be taking this a lot more seriously. And Pinside might just explode. I'm not sure what would happen then. But imagine, I mean, wouldn't it be, I mean, I feel sorry for the person, but wouldn't it be awesome to be watching a stream on YouTube? I know. And now all I got to do is shoot the boom. I can't even watch America's Funniest Videos when people wipe out because it's painful for me. I guess I'm too empathetic. But, dude, that would be crushing if somebody, you know, especially somebody who's passionate enough to want to stream pinball and promote pinball to have their game totally crap out on them. I mean, I just don't see that happening. And if that happens enough, you get the compilation tapes of the 10 people getting their game's brick. Fuck! What the fuck? Oh, that's like faces of death for pinball. I don't want to see that. Well, we'll keep our eyes on that as it develops and keep it posted. In the meantime, more crappy news. Yes. Our friends Kim and Ed Vanderveen over at the Texas Pinball Festival have officially announced that 2021 is a no-go. Yeah, man, I know it wasn't easy to move TPF for another year, but Ed and Kim, you guys did the right thing. Yeah. You know, better that we all come back in 2022 vaccinated and ready to do the show correctly. with, you know, few, if any, restrictions, because I know that's how Ed really wants to push this, is make it open, not have to worry about doing anything. Right, yeah. And can you imagine the drinking and the debauchery that's going to happen at the next TPF?
    23:28
    That'd be insane. No TPF, it's going to be insane. It's going to be like Rumspringer. Yeah. People are going to be so, you know, cooped up for the last couple of years, you know. It's going to be a morning. It's going to be a shit show. Yes. you're supposed to sign autographs at 10 I'll be there at 10pm yeah I thought you said 10pm so yeah sad news again just like you said it's the right thing to do you know we don't want anybody getting sick or dying from this thing just because we're trying to push it for our own amusement and there's some people out there let's face it there's some people that see it as more of a threat than others do so the people who don't are like well come on man why can't we you know well better safe than sorry absolutely right but hey dr pinn yo tell me about the secret hobbit flipper code oh shit yeah so this was on facebook and if you're not part of the jersey jack pinball fan club on facebook you got to get in there because there's some really really good stuff that they talk about and one fan posted a picture of her standing in front of the hobbit and i believe it was with gandalf's sword from the movie you know she was just kind of showing off with this badass sword and eric chimed in and kind of geeked out a little bit about his love for Lord of the Rings. But while he was in there talking about it, he also dropped some information on a secret flipper code that's never been revealed before to the general public. And he didn't say what happens when you put this in. So if anyone out there has a Hobbit, give this a shot and let us know what you see. But what he posted, so you can all try this, is use the left flipper for letters and the right flipper for enter. In attract mode, you're going to basically hit both flippers together just to kind of clear out things and start from a blank slate. And then you're going to hit the left seven times, right once, left once, right once, left 13 times, right once, left five, and then right two times. I have no idea what that does, but it sounds interesting. It's like kind of solving a mystery. So let us know what you see when you put that in if you want to hobbit. But we can also verify that we sent him something for our flipper code that might have something to do with our pinball show. I didn't know if we were supposed to divulge this yet, But this is probably one of the highlights of doing this podcast with you, is that we are going to get our own flipper code, and it's going to be in a pretty amazing game. So look forward to that. All right. Next up, the Pinball Industry Awards have been announced by the Pinball Network. Brainchild of Zach Minney. Brainchild. I can never say Brainchild like Brainchild of Zach Minney. It's always got to be Brainchild of Zach Minney because it just sounds like an evil song. Yeah. My name is Zach Minion, and I've got an idea for an award show. Let's take over the world.
    26:13
    Yeah, man, you knew he was going to make an award show over there. So it's basically a new award show, acts more of a critic's choice as opposed to the format of its whippies, which is more of a people's choice awards. And it's kind of obvious, man, that Zach and Dennis and David, David Dennis, put in a ton of work putting this all together. I really wish them the best with it. I'm kind of excited to see what they come up with. What are your thoughts, man? Do you think there's a void out there that another pinball award show should fill? Well, I mean, if there's space for it in the movies and in TV, such as the Academy Awards and the People's Choice Awards and the Golden Globe Awards and everything else, I guess there's always space for more. My only concern is that pinball is a very small hobby, and there's a whole lot of factions in pinball. For one reason or another, I can't explain it. There just is. and I don't know how you can possibly assemble a group of critics that are going to be unbiased. I guess the only saving grace on that is that Zach has said, hey, this isn't an award show. It's not like, hey, you're the best pinball artist. He said there might be two or three people who get an award for art or a podcast or streaming or whatever they have awards for. It's more of a recognition sort of thing for people who are who are doing unique things within their field So that makes it a little bit different Whereas you don't just have a group of 12 people sitting down picking, you know, who's gonna get best game design You know best top or but whatever it gonna be a little more widespread than that So that that a little more refreshing But I just I still don know how you can assemble a team of people who aren going to be biased in some way because everybody's got allegiance to someone. Right. And these are the industry awards, right? And there are very few people who are technically, unless you're counting the media and industry, are part of the pinball industry. There are very few people who are working in the industry that are involved in this. And not to say that's a bad thing. I mean, the media can have their own awards. That's totally fine. But I do feel like you and I have talked about this. I know a lot about pinball compared to the average person, but I don't know if I would be comfortable saying that I am an expert more so than a guy who lives his life on pin side, you know, who is not in media and who contributes to the hobby by, you know, listening to all the podcasts and writing on the forums. I mean, I don't feel like I have any more right to judge what's happening in pinball than that guy. So for that reason, I don't feel comfortable being a judge. But, you know, there are plenty of other people who might.
    28:46
    You're actually eligible and I'm not. Why are you not? We both got an invitation because I'm in the industry. I'm a pinball artist. David Dennis sent us, you know, the thing like, hey, you know, go here and check it out and, you know, become a judge or whatever. And I'm like, can I do this? Like, I'm a pinball artist. She's like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, you can't.
    29:07
    So, because, yeah, it's if you're in the industry, because you're going to be biased. If I work for whatever, Stern, CGC, whoever, you know, I'm going to have a tendency to lean that way. I mean, I'm saying that it's going to be tough to find unbiased media people. But you can't even have, like, industry people come in. Because if you say, hey, you know, John Borg is going to be a, you know, a special judge. Well, he's going to vote for Stern, you know. Right. unless you're a retired designer and even then yeah or a retired pinball industry person you know whatever capacity even then you've got your loyalties right so yeah yeah what if uh what if steve richie you know heaven forbid what if steve richie retires well his most closest group of friends are going to be people at stern because that's where he left you know that's the last place he was at before he left i just don't see how it can be i don't want to say fairly well i think what you're trying to we both have talked about is that if you're trying to make it a different approach than the Twippies, which is great. And you're doing that, and the way you're differentiating yourself is that you're saying, well, these are only media people. It's not the general public. You have to say that they have some insight that the general public doesn't have. And I'm not sure that I feel comfortable saying that I do, but plenty of other people might. And listen, I think Zach and the Straight Down the Middle guys have a killer production value. More free pinball entertainment is always a good thing. So, sure. I think this would just be like an award show for the for the fans, for the people of pinball, because because I can say honestly that a Twippy would mean 20 times more to me than an industry award, because the people who buy pinball machines voted for me, not 12 people sitting in a room going, I don't know, give it to that guy. You know, I never pay attention to movie critics. You know, oh, don't go see this. It was rubbish or whatever. I don't, I'm going to go, you know, these things are subjective. I'm going to go watch the movie and see what I think. Besides, my idea of a good movie is far different than most movie critics' idea of a good movie. So speaking as someone who could potentially receive one of these, it's honestly not going to mean a whole lot to me. And I would appreciate the fact that my peers, you know, think that I'm doing a good job at whether it's podcasting. But people who buy these things, who are players and tournament players and pinball collectors and all that, them voting for me, that's a big difference. That's a big difference. I absolutely love the Twippies. I consider Jeff Patterson a really good friend. I know you do too. So I hope this doesn't discourage anyone involved in the Twippies now that there's someone else in the sandbox. But I'm excited to see how it goes. I wish them a lot of luck because I know it's got to be an absolutely ridiculous amount of work to put a show on like this. If they want to do it, and I think they should do it, then, you know, more power to them, man, no matter how it goes. And it could just get bigger and better every year. You know, I don't have the information in front of me, but didn't they announce the date as, like, end of January or early February or something? It's coming up fast. It's January, yeah. It's this month. Yeah, I mean, yeah, this month. Like, they're going to vote. They're assembling their crew. They're assembling their voters. Right. And they're going to pick winners, make trophies, and have a show within a month. Well, I think they've been working on this for a long time. And, you know, I'm sure that with Zach helping to start the Twiffies, I understand his drive to create something similar, you know, now that he's no longer part of them. So he's definitely had some practice doing this, and he's been working on it for a long time before they announced it with Dennis and everyone else there at TPN. Yeah, definitely wish them the best of luck. You know, I'll tune in. Absolutely. And like I said, the more the merrier, so it should be fun. And, you know, I'll say this, too. I really like their idea of doing the Pinball Machine Hall of Fame. Yes. And Joe Schmoes can vote on that, too. So if you're not in the pinball media, you just like to play pinball, you can go to their website. And I don't know what it is, sorry, but look it up, Pinball Industry Awards. You can vote for they're going to be putting actual games in a pinball hall of fame, not designers or artists or anything else, but actual games, which should be interesting. I'm very curious to see what the first batch is going to be. Is it going to be like the Timmy O'Adams family? That would be my guess. It's going to be your top, you know, pin side, top 50, whatever games fit the criteria. And that's going to be the sports book of the pinball industry. Yes. Everyone's going to bet on which machines are going into the Hall of Fame. Well, I do think Pinball Expo does this, but at some point a Lifetime Achievement Award would be cool from either the Twippies or the industry awards. Well, you know what? When I started this show, it didn't end up that way because just for lack of it being feasible to do, I wanted this show to be sort of like we're going to have on these people who are either at the end of their career or approaching the end of their career and do sort of a lifetime interview. So, unfortunately, we couldn't do that because, you know, it's just too difficult with most of these people who are retired. They're like, what's Skype? I don't understand. You know, it's just.
    33:53
    Unless we could sit down with these people, it just didn't work out. But, you know, anything along those lines that can shed more light, you know, and tell the stories of these people who have done so much to lay the foundation for our hobby, you know, the better. I think that's great. Absolutely. All right. Yeah, next item is, it's kind of sad, actually. The Pinberg refunds are being sent out now. I received my 300-plus bucks back for the tickets that, you know, that I had bought earlier in the year. And, man, I would much rather have tickets. But yeah, they're making everyone who bought tickets whole, and it's just kind of one more confirmation that that is another end of an era for them, and I appreciate them doing that. But I hope to see them back in the future, and I'm happy to send that money right back if that's ever a possibility. I'm going to ask you to explain the sadness. I'm like, I've never gotten a check in the mail for $300 a month. It's not sadness per se. It's bittersweet. It's like I'd much rather not have the cash. I'd rather have Pinberg back. But the other option was no Pinberg and no cash. Cash, that's right. So not so sad. And I was able to get a pair of Flipper Fidelity speakers from my Jurassic Park with some of that. So that is a silver lining on that. If I may, to spoil some of your presents, being that it's after Christmas and you have to wait, I will tell you that I got you some limited edition Pinberg collectibles for you and your wife. Oh, way, dude. That is amazing. Yes. So maybe that will, you know, drive some of your tears as well. Chris, that's really cool. Thank you, man. Thank you. I actually did. I just sent your box of Christmas stash. We had both agreed that we're going to do it after Christmas to avoid the craziness and give us some time to breathe. What's the trucking company that's bringing it in? That's right.
    35:37
    Actually, my wife sent it out. I think she sent it through UPS. So we avoided USPS. We'll see how it goes. You need a freight, no? Oh, right, right. Oh, I see what you're saying. Really? I see what you're saying. I missed that joke.
    35:50
    Well, listen, you still haven't gotten your secret Santa. gift, right? Well, I am told that one of them arrived, so it's probably in my mailbox, which I haven't been to in like a week and a half. And the other one is on its way. If there's something in your mailbox, it's not a pinball machine, but if there's something else on its way, that could be a big deal, because whoever did get that big prize that John Junt had teased hasn't arrived yet. So maybe it's you. Yeah, well, he made it sound like it was a pinball machine, but he didn't say it was. No, he didn't, but he said it was pretty special. Yeah, and he said, like, whoever gets it is not going to wait to open it. and sound like it was like, man, I wish I was that person.
    36:26
    Maybe you are that person. Imagine getting a pinball machine. Like, geez, that'd be awesome. Yeah, that would be something. Shout outs. You want to give a couple? Shout outs. Well, you take the first one. Okay. So shout out to David Thiel. He posted on Facebook that he is making music for four games this year. He's kind of like you, Chris. He's a free agent at this point. He's not working for any one company exclusively, so he can kind of branch out and do his own thing. And I'm excited because he does great work. and to see him actually involved in four games this year is pretty cool. So looking forward to that. And as a little teaser in our interview later on in the back half of the show, American Pinball does suggest that they may be using him for some projects as well. That's right. Yeah, so that could be one of them. There's rumors that he's involved with some CGC stuff, and he worked on Alien, I think. So those could be three of the four, but there is still a mystery out there. And also a shout-out to the Paper Flock guys who started shipping the 30th anniversary Stern books that people said were never going to arrive. Well, they're on their way to you. Some of you will probably get them before the end of the year, depending on if the pipeline has eased up. A couple more flushes to get a few of these boxes through, and then hopefully things will be easing up on the USPS. But we will see. Actually, I don't know how these were shipped, so I don't know. But anyway, so look for those. Yeah, I think it's USPS. And there are some pin-side posts now of people actually getting the book. So there is actually a light at the end of the tunnel. for everyone who put in for a 30th anniversary book. And just so your listeners know, Christian was laughing through that line because it took him four times to say it. I was actually worried about possibly having a stroke because I could not enunciate my words. I knew the laugh was going to be there, and I'm like, I better explain that because in editing I can't get rid of that.
    38:10
    So that's going to wrap up the news for this week. We're going to head into our commercial break and be back with Mr. David Fix from American Pinball and a special mystery guest. So we're going to learn all about the big shakeup that's going on over at American Pinball Year. I want to stick around for that. And after that, we've got some contest winners, and we've got some information about our next show and our next contest. So stick around. We'll be right back.
    38:34
    Guess what? I got a fever. And the only prescription is the super awesome pinball show.
    38:46
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    39:22
    Get your game on. Which Pokemon has bumpers and flippers? Whoa. All of them. Introducing Pokemon Pinball. Now with its own rumble feature for Game Boy Color. The new way to catch them all. Hey, this is Dennis Norman, and you're listening to the semi-awesome... Uh, not semi-awesome, super awesome. What? Super awesome? Yep. Are you sure? Because I listen to them. It's not that good. Yes, I'm sure. Would you just say super? Okay. Hey, this is Dennis Nordman, and you're listening to the Super Awesome Pinball Show. Perfect. All right, that'll work. Okay, okay. Fork over my 20 bucks now. Yeah, yeah, it's coming. God, you pinball guys. Now, back to our program. Well, it's about frickin' time. I am the God of Hellfire, and I bring you the Super Awesome Pinball Show. It's a good show.
    40:27
    When it comes crashing down and it hurts inside. You gotta take a stand, it don't help to hide. I am a real American Fight for my rights Fight for your life David Fix has been in the forefront of the pinball and arcade industry for years now, working for Dave & Buster's Ice Arcade Games and as co-manager at Pocketeer Billiards in Buffalo, New York. He has also been heavily involved in Chicago's Pinball Expo with Rob Burke. And just this month, David took on a new role as the Director of Operations and Marketing at American Pinball, and we're really happy to have him on the show with a special guest. Welcome, David.
    41:15
    Thank you, guys. Hey. It's great to be here on this beautiful podcast, and I'm happy to be a part of this. I'm kind of actually happy to have the gentleman that's with us tonight. So why don't we introduce this? Ladies and gentlemen, I'd like to bring to you guys the new senior game designer for American Pinball, Dennis Nordman. Dennis, are you there? Hey, I'm here. We're glad to have you, Dennis. This is going to be kind of an exciting thing.
    41:40
    kind of is we are basically going to redefine what is American Pinball, and Dennis is going to be helping me with that project. I'm excited to be a part of it, David, and thank you for bringing me on, and I hope we can do some exciting things in the future. Oh, yes. With your talent, we're going to do some great stuff. So, I mean, this has got to be kind of newsworthy for Chris. He was kind of like he had to go find out by himself, so I'm kind of interested to find out what he thinks about all this.
    42:10
    I don't really like Dennis much, but... Yeah, okay. We actually, we really wanted you guys on the show because we actually thought that American Pinball might be closing its doors. We had heard, you know, through the grapevine that there was a shakeup there, you know, that made us worried. And so we reached out to you guys and you were grateful enough to come on to tell us a little bit more about what happened. So American Pinball is apparently not getting out of pinball. Is that correct? That is correct. We're not getting out of pinball. And they don't want to lose what they put time and money into it. So let me give you a little breakdown real quick. As you pointed out, I've been with Expo for many years, helping Rob and also Mike Pacek. And the very first year that American Pinball got off the ground, I kind of helped them out there, making sure that they got Houdini. That would have been the Papa Duke version to Expo to show the world this whole new idea of a pinball. And that kind of just started the ground running for them. And they were very thankful. And then when they did their release of Oktoberfest, they made sure that the red carpet was rolled out, and we did this big release of Oktoberfest for the world to see. And all the time, I've been kind of quietly, once in a while, helping them out if I can. Well, earlier this year, the owners of American Pinball contacted me and said, Hey, we have problems. It's been too long, and we need to really put some zip into this company. Well, that led to me changing careers kind of things. In fact, I went to ICE, and I was on furlough for ICE because of COVID, and we just ended up making a deal. And then I told ICE, and they were so happy for me, and as family as they are, they told me I always have a home there. So I give my hats off to the guys, Drew Krause and the Coppola family there at ICE for all their support over the years. But the idea is to bring some new blood and some new fresh talent into American pinball and definitely get this from a one game every 18 to 20 months to maybe two to three games a year. Can you identify what their problems were when they came to you and said, we've got problems? Can you elaborate on what those problems were that they felt that Mr. David could fix?
    44:23
    Well, no pun intended. I've heard all these jokes before, Chris. But in manufacturing, especially at ICE, let me just tell you, at ICE it's kind of interesting. They produce 20 different game lines a day, okay? They roll out, when it's full force, a factory of 300 can roll out about 500 games a week, okay? And that's 20 different titles. So you're talking about 20 different game lines, and you're talking about a factory that's about 170,000 square feet? You're talking about redemption games, right? Redemption games, yes. But still, I mean, these games are huge. They're about the size of a couch most of the time. And if you go into Dave & Buster's or Chuck E. Cheese, 75% of those games will be an ice game. So they hold the market share of all the arcade stuff. Ice is just a powerhouse. But working for them for the years I have, the turnaround time, development time, getting the game ready and going has been kind of the magic that I was part of. I remember we took a game from conceptual drawings and actually had a game within four months at IAAPA and probably would have won the best game of the year if we would have submitted it in time. What were the issues that American Pinball came to you and said, we have these problems and we think you're the guy that can correct these things? What were the problems they felt they were having? Development time, production, marketing, just trying to get the product to the market, basically, and just keep running into little issues along the way. So it was a lot of little issues. And let's put it this way. In the 15 days I've been there, I think I've solved a ton just in purchasing and lead times and scheduling stuff and making sure this gets taken care of and understanding where our shorts are. And it's a lot of stuff right there. One of the key aspects, I think, that was a problem a little bit was in the design feature. Bringing Dennis in is a great contribution to us. The other thing also into that, Chris, and I'm going to touch on this too, is Dennis' role as senior game designer is not just going to be the only guy designing games. In the three weeks that I've been there, I've already brought on three junior game designers who are already working on their first games. And, in fact, one of the first games that is coming to the market will be one of our junior designers, probably in the next six months. Are these people that we're familiar with? Are they known names? When you see these people, you will know their names, yes. But right now, we're going to keep that kind of quiet. Okay. Now, when you outlined the problems that management felt that they had, you didn't mention anything about game design. Now, you're bringing in Dennis Norbin now, who's the senior game designer, and people are going to be working under him. Yet, Joe Balser was let go. So did they have a problem with game design as well? Why wasn't he left on board to work under Dennis? So here's the other thing is that Joe has a little bit of a unique way of working with other people. And we didn't really let Joe go. We kind of maneuvered him into contract design. So Joe, if he designs his game, he's going to bring it to us. We're going to pay him. We're going to do everything that we normally do with any other contract designer. But the day-to-day operations and being there will fall to Dennis instead. And Dennis is going to mentor the younger guys in a format that we like better.
    47:50
    Where's your location at? Where's American Pinball at? American Pinball is in its new location. So during COVID, we moved from our previous location to now 500 South Hicks Avenue, Suite 100, Palatine, Illinois. And it's a huge place. So Dennis lives close by. So he's going to be in the shop working? And Dennis is 45 minutes away, but Dennis also has a full model shop in his house. Dennis, do you want to talk a little bit about what you've got there? We can talk about that. Well, I can build just about anything in my shop. I'm probably not too good at wiring games, but woodworking and assembling whitewoods, I can do all that. I can even build cabinets in my shop if I clean it up so I have room.
    48:32
    It's not me about foam core. You're the foam core master. That's right. There are piles of foam core in my shop. Nor binite. Yeah, so I have, you know, a nice table saw and a bandsaw and a spot welder, and I can hand make ball guides and ramps and enough to get, you know, like my very first whitewood running. So I go from a drawing to my Nordmanite model. That really helps me visualize what the game is going to look like and if there's room for all the ramps and all the mechanisms. Sometimes I build models of the mechanism to show how I expect it to work. And after the foam core model and everybody looks at it and we all approve it, then I'll build the first Whitewood. And the nice thing about the Norman Knight, and I'm just going to touch on this, is you actually get the full 3D effect. You know, there is solid works where you can see the game in the computer and you can kind of visualize and get it. But the way Dennis mocks this all up with his technique that he has patented, you can see so much, especially when you're looking at it at different angles. Right, Dennis? Oh, yeah, it really helps me visualize what's going on in the game and where I have room to put something else and where these two ramps are going to fit together. I started that with Whitewater, I think. You know, I used a lot of foam core in college to build models of things. So it just seemed natural to do the first iteration of a game in foam core. Dennis, through no fault of your own or fault of your own, perhaps, you've recently sort of gotten a reputation of being the guy who bounces around a lot. It doesn't stick around at one place too much. Now, I know that your previous jobs have been more of a contract job. Is this job any different where you would maybe grow some roots here at American Pinball? Well, every place I've been, I would have liked to have grown roots. The reason I bounce around is because the people I've been with haven't been able to produce a pinball game. So I was with Deep Root for two years. I did three really awesome games for them, but I never had an engineer the entire time. I just couldn't make any more progress. No mechanisms, no anything. I just got so frustrated that I wanted to go someplace where I could get a game done. So that's when I went to Chicago Gaming. But before that, before I went to Deep Root, yeah, I was with Multimorphic, and Jerry ran out of money to pay me. And, of course, we all know Highway. I had good reasons for leaving Highway. I remember at Expo he announced that I'm designing the Alien game and that the game will be ready in the spring, and he's taking deposits. And I knew that the game was never going to be ready in the spring, and I didn't want people giving their deposits of their hard-earned money thinking they're going to get my game in a few months. But Highwayhead Trouble paid me sporadically anyway. So I've just been in the wrong places at the wrong time. I've got a lot of games out there that I'm going to be maybe not seeing for quite a while. How many games would you say are out there? Three and one more that's coming. Okay. So I'm working with Chris on a game with Chicago Gaming. I don't know what you're talking about.
    51:36
    Exclusive, super awesome pinball show. I'd like to touch on this point, too. So I feel bad for Dennis, and I've known Dennis, and I've, you know, like I said, I've been around the business and on the outskirts of the pinball, you know, knowing what's going on, and poor Dennis has been kind of, like, jerked around for the last, so many years. And when I approached Dennis, I basically said, Dennis, I would like to come work for a job that you're actually an employee, okay, with employee benefits. We're going to give you an office. You're going to have a team and you're going to have some young junior designers that we need you to mentor. And I think Dennis was like, yeah, well, let Dennis answer that. What do you think about that, Dennis? I thought that was a great and exciting opportunity for me to be able to use some of my knowledge and pass it on to some younger people. I was analyzing a game from an outside designer at, can I say Chicago Gaming? Yeah, go ahead. That's who I'm doing a game for with Chris at Chicago Gaming. And I looked at a game from an outside designer, and I realized when I saw a lot of errors in that game, I realized, wow, I know a lot of stuff. I know a lot of stuff about what not to do and what isn't going to work and what doesn't work. I don't want to try to tell these young guys what they should do. I just want to let them know of things that I see on their game that I know are not going to work right. I'm always very concerned about making the shots as smooth as possible. Right. And, you know, a big benefit, and I can speak to this because I'm in the same boat, a big benefit of being hired by a company as an employee is that you get a certain amount of respect that you've earned as a designer throughout your career that you don't get when you're a contractor. You know, it's a lot different when you're a contractor. People kind of throw you around and use you. You're just like another tool in the toolbox. Not that you're a tool, Dennis, but you know what I'm saying. I'm glad that you landed here and that you've got the ability to grow some roots. You're a full-time employee, and I think even just talking to David and setting all this up, there's a lot of respect there. So congratulations on landing this. I know you're going to do an awesome job. Thank you, Chris. Have you started working on your next title for AP? I know when we talked to Josh and Joe earlier in the year, they had mentioned that there was already some work being done on Game 4 and possibly even Game 5. So, you know, are those still in development or is the plan kind of to retool the design and who's on task for that? Well, so let me touch on that point so I can tell you. So G4, technically the game that we had that was G4 has kind of been put on hold. G5 has gotten bumped up because it's ready. So we're already starting to get into the stages with G5. Dennis is coming on board and he will start working on his own game starting today, January 4th, when we get off this podcast. But I'll tell you, in the weeks before January 4th, Dennis and I have already had a bunch of meetings talking about licensed and non-licensed games, different things that we can do. And, you know, it helps that we have a good team already. So your guys are going to probably have on your show shortly Roger Sharp. I think that's what Chris was telling me. And Roger's our licensor. He works with us. He's a consultant with American Pinball, and he's a good friend. So Roger and I have already had a lot of talk about different licenses and different games. And, you know, Roger is kind of the guy, he's the, you know, Sensei Roger is what many people have coined that phrase over the years because the man has his finger on the pinball, okay? And when we share notes, Roger and I, we're pretty much right on point. And, you know, it's great to have such a great team. I'm bringing Dennis. Dennis is probably one of the fastest guys to bring a play field together from to design to whitewood. How long does it normally take you to do a whitewood, Dennis, and then maybe even your Norfolk night? You know my memory is failing but I think it about two months from start of concept to home core model That pretty fast guys Yeah And then you know let me ask this question Chris Franchi are you under strict contract with any other game manufacturers out there that you can only do the artwork with them, or are you kind of open? Yeah, I'm not under any contract with anybody. That's not to say I'm not working on things. I'm just not under contract. Okay. Well, I'll tell you what. Let's talk about this after the show, and I'll definitely see if we can get you to do some work for us. Oh, that's exciting. Can we work with Chris again?
    56:09
    Well, I can use that as a tool, Dennis. If you don't behave yourself, you get to work with Chris. That's the thing.
    56:17
    Obviously, you guys can't talk licenses, but, you know, Dennis, you've worked on some incredible, you know, original IPs like Whitewater and major licenses like the Elvira games. You know, do you have a preference about original versus licensed or do you kind of like both? I kind of like both. I might have a slight preference over original because you don't have as many headaches. When you run into a problem, you just invent something new for the storyline. And I like creating the storyline and the theme. But license is a different kind of challenge. And I like them both, but I would say that I like original better. But from what I understand, everybody thinks licenses in this day and age sell better. It might depend on the original theme and how you present it, too. Right. So do you have your pick of what license you wanted to go after from the stockpile that American Pinball may have at this point? No, no, no, no. They have it right now. You know, it's all a game. But, yeah, I mean, it sounds to me like you've got a number of games in the works. And, Dennis, were you kind of assigned a title, or did you get to choose? We haven't even decided on a title yet. We haven't decided if it's going to be original or a license. Okay. Dennis and I both agree about this, and I will tell you this. and Dennis, you can back me. If I'm wrong, let me know. But if we're going for a license, we want the whole license. We want the music. We want the actors. We want everything. We're not going to go after a license and not have some actor's voice in the game that we think needs to be there. We want the whole enchilada. We don't want to be, you know, coming up with a bad version of a game that's just missing that actor because he's not in there. Would you say that, True Dinos? Oh, absolutely, that's true. Like Alien without Sigourney Reaver. I don't want to do anything like that. We need the music and we need the actors. Maybe that's not always possible, but that makes for the most entertaining experience. I know that's music to the pinball population's ears, man. That's what they want to hear. When you say actors, do you mean using their voices from the movie or actually getting them into a studio for call-outs or both? Both. You know, we were able to get, I forget whether we got Stallone in for Demolition Man, but I know we got Wesley Snipes in for Demolition Man. Yeah, I'd like to use scripts from the movies and, of course, some original pinball stuff, too. Well, look at Apollo 13. You've got Tom Hanks out of the whole game. You know, you look at Hook from Dead East. Robin Williams is missing from the whole game. I mean, even if we just pull audio clips and stuff from the actual movie, that's one thing. But to get the call outs, that's another thing. That's really good. And I don't mind pulling stuff. But if I get the audio clips or get somebody to do the actual voice calls, that helps move the product along. I don't want to have something half-baked. You know, we always hear as hobbyists that the reason why Stern or other big pinball companies don't do that is because it's price prohibitive. Do you feel like there are licenses out there where you can get the whole enchilada and still make your bill of materials and your total cost work? I'm going to tell you that I have an ace in the hole in that, and I'm going to tell you his name is Roger Sharp. You need an ace in the hole.
    59:28
    And when you talk to Roger, you can ask him about that because Roger, he is the king of licensing. I mean, there are many other people out there who claim that they're pretty good, and they will do some great stuff, but they'll end up paying for it. Roger knows the art. He knows the business, and that is my ace in the hole there with Roger's. And, you know, it's just that. Now, one other thing I want to talk about, Christian, and I think this is something that everybody just never gets, and I've had so many meetings with people over the years, and they just say, you know, and this is one of the key points that they ask me. They say, you know, if I was going to make a pinball company, he says, I would use Williams parts. I would use Williams slippers. I would use Williams pop bumpers. I would use Williams slingshots. Williams, you know, targets. I would use the Williams library of stuff and then make my games around that and build this solid game. Because why keep reinventing? I mean, like, Highway spent years. I mean, Dennis, how long did Highway spend on that stupid flipper mechanism he worked on? I don't know that long, but I hated it from the beginning. But, so, you know, I've heard that by many, many people. And I will tell you that that's what American Pinball does. We use 100% Williams parts. We're using Williams flippers, Williams silver coils. I mean, this is tried, tested, and true Williams parts, you know, and it's a solid game. You know, I asked some of our people. Now, granted, the first two games of American Pinball's past, I'm going to say Houdini and Oktoberfest, wasn't their finest time frame. There's definitely something wrong with Houdini and the artwork on, well, I don't know. Chris, what do you think of the artwork on Oktoberfest? Just tell me what you think. What's wrong with a monkey grabbing a woman's ass?
    61:19
    Well, that's unfortunate. I didn't care for Oktoberfest. There was like drawn stuff and Photoshop stuff and all over, you know, just I didn't care for it much. I personally liked Houdini. I know Houdini gets a lot of shit, but I liked it. I almost bought it because of the artwork, but then when I played it, it was very cruel to me. It was just like one drain after another, and I just threw my hands up. I'm like, yeah, I'm out of this. But Octopus I didn't like as much. Hot Wheels I liked. And I will tell you, Chris, everybody's criticism about all the games I have listened to. I have gone through Pinside. I have listened to other podcasters about all our games. And trust me, I've taken notes and I'm revisiting everything. So we're going to look at stuff and just get ready. As my friend Rob Burke will say, just get ready. because American Pinball here in 2021 is going to be a completely different looking animal. Well, people have always said that your machines are built extremely well. They're solid. They feel good. They flip well. The biggest criticisms have been theme, as I'm sure you guys know. And it's exciting that you guys are really looking into that and enhancing what has already been good for the company. Yes. Going back to artwork, with Hot Wheels, I sent Joe a mock-up of a retro Hot Wheels art package. It was literally me taking artwork from the old packaging materials from the 60s, and I put together this fantastic, I mean, I can call it fantastic because it wasn't my artwork. It was just my layout. Fantastic looking thing, and I think they kind of missed the boat. Like, I thought they should have done like a limited edition and done something like that. You know, that was more retro, more nostalgic. And to your point, Chris, it probably could have been done. But here's the problem. The licensor was like, they really were wanting to focus on the new look. They wanted their new look because this is in the Hot Wheels city. This is in the whole tour that they were supposed to be doing. So basically, there's this giant tour that was going to be touring the United States through the COVID period of 2020.
    63:23
    And unfortunately, it never got off the ground. I mean, you might have saw the Jay Leno spot with Snoop Dogg and our game there. That was pretty cool. That was supposed to be the conclusion of this. But there was supposed to be like two to three or four Hot Wheels going around the United States in key cities with this Hot Wheels event. You're talking about full-size cars. Oh, yeah, full-size cars, exactly. Because the whole thing was these full-size cars and the collector's pieces and all the other ones, at the end of this year, they were supposed to be made and you could have actually put that new car on the machine. So, you know, that was supposed to be this whole thing. Now, with COVID, everything got thrown out in their marketing plans. And they also moved from their small location to their new location, which really hampered and really hurt them for getting the production right off the floor, right out. So when they hit the ground running, they hit it really good. They had games out to people. And then they moved, and it took them a while to get set up. And by the time they got the games back out, it hurt them. Let's talk about Hot Wheels a little bit because it was certainly geared towards home play and the collector market as well. but it appeared, though, there was a heavier push towards the location market in previous games that American Pinball had made. So with the timing of COVID and locations closing, has that caused any issues with sales of the game? And has the push of your strategy moving forward moved away from the location into the collector market, or are you trying to hit both? Well, let me touch on that. So I will tell you that, like ice, the total commercial aspect is in a coma right now. You have Dave & Buster's, Family Fun Entertainment Centers, arcades, Pocketeer, for crying out loud. They're closed. And the location that people can go out and play pinball is like in a coma, as I like to call it. So when we come out of this coma, that's going to happen. So what that has done with the market is pushed everybody to bring in the games to the home. So we see a ton of flux to the home market. And the people are just definitely going after, you know, bringing it home for the kids to have in the basement to play. In fact, I had a gentleman contact us on Christmas Day for a Hot Wheels pinball machine. And I replied back to him and I said, listen, I have a distributor who is 20 minutes drive from your house. And I made the arrangements and that gentleman went and bought the machine the next couple days after that. And he was so excited because he got to play the machine in the showroom. Because all he did was see it on the Internet. And that's the other thing. No shows have really, really, really hampered the sales of games because people can't put their hands on the game. You know, it's like, and I'm going to say this, if a podcaster is reviewing a game, did they play the game first? That's my first thing. If they said, oh, I looked at all these pictures of the game, but I haven't played it, I really don't take much consideration into a podcaster's critique on that. They describe that as a first impression. Oh, yes, yes. My first impression. That's like me seeing a young podcaster, and Chris and I, we had this discussion earlier. Just think about this. The podcaster who may be been podcasting and collecting for the last five years, I mean, he wasn't there through the 2000s. He wasn't there in the 99s when Williams closed down. He wasn't there when we used to buy pinball machines for $200 or $500. I mean, I have a $500 Getaway and a $600 Terminator 2 that looks like they're brand new, okay? I bought an Indiana Jones from the Williams version for $1,000. The first two games that my wife and I ever bought was a pinbot for $800 and a private pinbot for $1,200. dollars. So, I mean, you look at that and you're like, wow, you know? And then they come online and they're young and they have their attitude and they're going to tell the world what they think, but sometimes you've got to put the time in the trenches, boys, and do your research and get the facts right. And the same thing in the old days, what we did, we didn't go on podcasts, we would just reply back to the email saying, I haven't played it yet, it looks neat, you know, that kind of thing. But to go on and give your first impressions and, you know, it's fun. You've got to be first. Never play that. Oh, hey, hey, hey. It's about like having a podcaster sitting there watching, I don't know, a really good, super awesome pinball podcast eating popcorn while just commenting on what's going on in the screen. Oh, oh.
    68:01
    You just got burned. Well, let me ask you about that because a lot of times first impression is harped on, right? Everyone says, I've got to see this game in the right way to start in order to get the hype train rolling, right? So American Pinball took a little heat because their Hot Wheels was first revealed kind of through secondary photos at AMOA. That's right. So how are you going to approach things differently? Do you put stock in that? Do you say, you know, a reveal is very important, how we do this is very important? Yes, a reveal is very important. You know, everybody says first impressions and they look at games, and you can just look at Guns N' Roses, okay? And I will tell you that Jersey Jack did everything right in the reveal, the music video, the whole package. There's a reason they sold all those games in that short period of time. But nobody had played it yet. Okay. And if you have credit that you built games that are really fun and you haven't played it yet, yeah, you'll sell them on looks. However, what happens when the game you get doesn't play the way it looks great, sounds great, slides are great, but it doesn't play as good? Then what happens? You know, are you disappointed in your purchase? You know, first impressions are also all about the feel of the game, getting it out of the cabinet and enjoying it. Yeah, and a lot of people have backpedaled, too. They've done their first impressions, and they kind of shit can a game, and then they play it, and they come back and go, well, I've got to change my opinion. And they're like, well, if you're going to change it, then why don't you just wait? I have to say, Chris, just on that, that's why I like Dennis. Dennis, he plays his games. He plays the hell out of them. And if he doesn't like it, he'll change it. Dennis, I mean, you play even the Nordmanites, don't you? I can roll the ball on the Nordmanite. You really can't flip it. But on my handmade games after the Nordmanite game, yeah, I can flip those so I can see how shots work. But that's one of the reasons I don't have any pinball games at home because I play it so much in a year that I just get tired of it. I'm tired of you.
    70:03
    Yeah. I play it, you know, eight, nine hours a day for six or seven days a week sometimes. I'll move a post a 30-second of an inch if it has to. I'll move the whole upper half of a play field to the right a 30-second of an inch if I have to. I really try to make sure all the shots work smoothly. And what about ball traps, Dennis? Do you like them or do you hate them? I hate ball traps. I know how to design the play field without ball traps. But then when you get into plastic and ramps and things overlapping each other, that's when it's a pain in the ass to try to fix the ball traps. But I do know how to make the play field roll smoothly so the ball won't stick in. So that leads me to a question that now I'm here, I'm interviewing Dennis for you guys. But let me ask Dennis on this one because I'm a collector. I've played all these games. So, Dennis, your current Elvira that you did for Stern, I know you submitted that, and then somebody else finished it. So I don't know if you know about the ball trap behind the drop target that happens and where the ball can just sit there. I don't know. Have you heard about that? I think it's the garage drop target where the ball can sit there. No, I have not heard about that. Okay. I haven't read the Elvira thread very much. You probably would have found something like that. The whole thing was it didn't have a resettable drop target, so the ball won't go into search mode. The ball sits behind the drop target and will just sit there, and you've got to either shove it or do something to get it out of that. And that sucks fine. But you probably would have changed something on that to the future. Let's talk, guys, about the future kind of American pinball. I know this interview was kind of staged in the sense that we want to talk about your new approach to pinball. And I think we've touched on that for sure. But let's talk about some of the changes that we haven't discussed and then where we're going to go moving forward. So one of the things we touched on is that Joe Balzer is no longer with you. But I know we had talked earlier that Josh Kugler is sticking around. Is he still going to remain as the rules guru for American Pinball? Yeah, Josh is still going to be our key software guy. There is no doubt to change that. Josh has got a passion. He loves pinball. I mean, he is a homebrew guy, okay? You know, for all intents and purposes, he's cut his teeth at American Pinball, and he's, you know, there's a reason Hot Wheels is a great pin, you know, and there's a reason that he's still working on Houdini code and Oktoberfest code. I mean, there's a reason that some people continue to work trying to perfect the craft and make it good. Yeah, he seems to be a perfectionist for sure. How about other teams that were there, you know, before the big shakeup, the sound teams, the engineers, some of the other? So the sound team is still going to be there. But we're going to improve on it a little bit because, there again, being at Expo and just being friends with so many people, I've already given a nod to David Thiel. We've had long conversations with that. I'm good friends with Chris Granner, so if Chris is available and I need a sound guy, I would definitely love to have Chris on that. There are many other sound guys that have been out there, and the one we currently have, he's a great guy too, and he's done a phenomenal job with what he has been able to do. But, you know, I mean, just to grow the team is what we need to do, and it takes a bunch. And unfortunately, not to go too crazy on everybody, there is always a driving force on every team. And that driving force, and to coin your phrase, is the game. That's the game designer. And Dennis likes certain people, and he's the driving force, and that's how things get done. So Dennis is definitely talking about bringing in a lot of key people that he likes, and I'm on board with that. And there's a bunch of key people that I like from Williams and Bally. I mean, these are some of the, you know, tried and true guys that are out there. I've been making many phone calls sitting on there. I mean, look, I even talked to Chris Franchi, I think, four or five times. He said, you want to just move into the apartment? We talk more than I do with my own daughter. So, you know.
    74:00
    I mean, it's just. That loveseat looks pretty comfy. That is one comfy couch, trust me. That's a great couch. But Dennis has got a lot of people, though, he loves to work with. So we're definitely talking to all those people. That's awesome. So, I mean, with, you know, four total game designers now, You've got some new sound talent maybe coming in, some new art talent. What else in terms of the company's strategy or goals for American Pinball overall do you have now moving forward? Has anything really shifted? Well, the one goal for me, and this is a goal for 2021, it's a high goal, and I'm shooting for it. It's all I can is to have two games come out this year because long are the days of boutique pinball. and, you know, if you want to be in this market, you just can't release a game and then sit back and fill that game for the next 18 to 20 months while we wait for the next game to come out. So we're going to definitely go after two games a year. If we can, we may bump it into three games a year and that will be between licensed and unlicensed games. I mean, there was a reason that Bally and Williams were so successful is because they gave the market what it needed and we're definitely going to address both of those things. Okay. American Pinball's model is to be a game company that designs and brings out more than one or two titles a year. It's to look at the market and play with it and go after it. And there's much in this market, just looking at this market in the first three weeks, just sitting down, going over all the stuff that I can see. It's like the market's ripe. The market's ready. It just needs to be focused on. And two games definitely will make people say, hey, American Pinball is right there pretty close to its term. Am I better than Jersey Jack? Our games are really well built. We've talked about that. And I think that if it's a well built game and it's tried and true and it's got a good title, it's going to move. And you know what? We're going to continue building the first three games that we hit. I mean, if you want a Houdini, you still can buy a Houdini. We're still manufacturing that. We're still manufacturing Oktoberfest. And trust me, 2021, we're still going to be promoting Hot Wheels pretty heavily. Meanwhile, bringing out the first game for 2021 and then shooting for a second game by the fall. David and Dennis, I want to ask you guys quickly about your strategy for game design. I guess, Dennis, this would be more in your alley. Oktoberfest and Houdini seem to be a little bit more packed, you know, a deeper world under glass, if you will, than, say, Hot Wheels, even though people freaking love Hot Wheels. So what's your approach? Do you like to have more under the glass, or do you like to have a more open play field, kind of like House of Horrors? Or do you like to have a mix, depending on what you're working on? I like to cram as full of as much stuff as I can. Right, that's what I like. A lot of it gets taken out. A lot got taken out of Elvira for the bomb. But it's a challenge to me to see how much I can pack in there. That's what she said!
    77:00
    Some of it had to come out because of the bomb. Well, there's a rumor that you had some pretty impressive ramps in Elvira, but those got changed. Is that true? That's true. Okay. So is it safe to say that we'll have some awesome ramps on some American pinball games from you? Oh, yeah, mate. Oh, yeah. Excellent.
    77:17
    Hey, listen, we don't go out to Picasso and tell him I want him to paint watercolors. Right. You know, and I have this on my desk, and Chris can explain to everybody what I have on my desk right now. What is it, Chris? A calculator. Yeah, well, I kind of look at games, but I don't really design a game by calculating. I really want a fun-playing game. Hey, guys, Dennis owns games. I currently am over 100 games. Don't tell my wife. She'd probably kill me. But, you know, I have 100 different titles. And the reason I have 100 different titles is because I love the pinball. You know, there's a reason I went with Rob Burke and worked on Expo to turn it around, you know. I mean, look at what Expo was a few years back, and it was not good. And then you can see where we're going now. It's going to be an awesome year coming up in 2021. But I love games that play good, sound good, feel good. And I will tell you, I think I had this conversation with, I don't know if I had this with Chris, you know, like Houdini. Everybody talks about the shots being tight. And there's something that contributes to this, too. You always have to look at a designer when they go from a wide body to a narrow body. and sometimes the mindset doesn't transform fast enough. And they're like, you know, if Houdini was a wide-body game, it probably would have been one of the greatest magic-themed pinballs ever made. Probably not as good as Theater of Magic. I love Theater of Magic, own one, but I think it'd be a good rival or a good comparison, you know, a good... Bookend. No, I completely agree with you. I've owned a Houdini for a few months on loan, and I absolutely loved it. It was really a great pin with a great theme and great art, as Chris was saying. Some of the shots held it back just because there were so many shots. But outside of that, I loved it. Yeah. And, you know, it just needs a little more tweaking. That's what I'm looking at, too. But I will also say that, like, now, like, Oktoberfest.
    79:12
    You know, when I sit down and I go through all the reviews and stuff, and listen, I'm not writing on the artist. It's the direction that the artist was given. Now, think about this. When I first walked into American Pinball, I don't want to tell stories out of school, but I will just say this, is that our direction at the beginning of Oktoberfest was let's design a game, Mad Magazine goes to the Oktoberfest. So it was going to be this wacky, kind of crazy, zany, Mad Magazine style of Oktoberfest. Then it got kind of changed to let's have it more of a disc feel. Then it got changed to another feel. And before you know it, it was a mishmash, and the poor artist was kind of like, okay, what do you guys want? You know, it was kind of like, and because the same artist who did Oktoberfest did Houdini, and that art package is beautiful. It was one clear direction. So, you know, it does need that direction and to work with the artist and, you know, to stay focused. But I think that if it was a true Mad Magazine, all kinds of Mad Magazine artwork all over it done in that style for Oktoberfest, I think people would have thought, hey, this is a much better game, you know? We were talking on the phone about tweaking, and there was something that you and I talked about that came as a surprise to me, and you said a lot of people don't even realize it, and that is the correction of the left ramp shot on Oktoberfest. Yeah. Tell the listeners about what happened with that. Thanks, Chris. Thanks for bringing that up. I actually almost forgot about that. So Oktoberfest came out, and we did all these videos, and people did their first impressions, and you can look at all these awesome gameplay. And the barrel lock shot almost is non-existent. It wasn't until like five months into production that they actually found that that barrel lock shot was almost impossible to do. And Josh Krugler, to his credit, and a few other people, key people at the company, came up with a little design. And they put it in the test game out in the lobby of American Pinball. And an event came up, and they needed three Oktoberfests, and they only had two in the bag to use. They grabbed the lobby game, and they put it out. And it was like a blow-away success. Everybody was like, I don't understand. It's like, that game there, the third game, I can make all the barrel shots, but the first two, I can't. And sure enough, they looked at the data, and they corrected it. Okay, and they corrected it in manufacturing. So if your game is not playing right, let's make sure you have the right coil stop. Make sure you have the right part, the upgrade, for your Oktoberfest. If you don't, send in a service ticket to American Pinball, Dave Brennan. He'll take care of it. He'll make sure he gets the part out to you. I didn't know this. I had the game for almost two years or a year and a half. And it suffered terribly. And then during COVID, we were talking to American Pinball, and I was like, hey, you know, you guys need to address that barrel lock shot. And they were like, we did. When are you going to send out a service announcement? When are you going to do anything else? Oh, well, we kind of didn't do that. So there was something missing there, and that needs to be addressed. And we're going to definitely do it. And trust me, I've changed that out on the one I have. And, oh, man, it's a completely different game. It plays really good now. I mean, we can make that barrel lock shot. Yeah, so the machines that, you know, if you buy one right now, the builds moving forward were corrected. Correct. If you have one, you know, that's a cold build, get a hold of American Pinball, and they'll send you what you need to correct that. So no more problems with that evil left ramp. Yes. Well, it sounds like you guys have made some really positive changes at American Pinball. We're definitely excited to see what's coming next from you guys. When do you think we might get some updates on what's coming next? I say it's been 15 days. I bring on Dennis to talk about the new year, and that's the first big excitement. Now you're clamoring for more. We're getting right to it. Yeah, just stay tuned, okay? Listen, we're going to make a splash. We're going to show you guys that this is not the American pinball that you have seen over the last few years. Okay, there's been a definite change all the way up to the top of management. That why I here because I now on the top of the management pile I answer directly to the owner of the company and a lot of things have been changed around and we going to definitely change it for the better We're going to make American Pinball. I don't want to say make American Pinball great again, but, you know.
    83:38
    It's already been used. I know. I know it's been used. Dennis is definitely a key factor for us, and I think Dennis is excited to be on board with us, too. Yeah, I'm excited. I see a lot of opportunity. Dennis, what are kind of your hopes with the company? Do you have a lot of ideas in the pipeline that you're ready to put down to paper for Whitewood? I just want to get a damn game done, finally.
    84:02
    Well, Dennis and I have been in much conversations, and last time I said, okay, Dennis, I want you to go to bed and dream of new designs. So this morning he sent me an email. He says, here's three new titles, design games I want to do. Ding, ding, ding. And he says, we could do this. We could do that. We can do this. And I'm like, okay, just keep a log of all these, because we're going to do it again, and we're going to present it to the crew. We're going to make the decision, and we're going to go forward. And, I mean, you know, this is not your typical American pinball company. This is now going to be geared the right way. I love it. Everybody's going to be enjoying it. The thing about being a game designer is you never get off work. You never leave work at 5 and you're done. And the game and the theme and the speech and the music, and it's all constantly on my brain from when I wake up to when I go to bed. So you have to be passionate to be a good game designer. And I will tell you, Dennis, the rest of the team is the same way. And I will tell you, Josh and the rest of the software and the audio guys, we'll present a theme to them. And they're like, do I really have to spend the next year of my life watching all these videos of the same movie over and over and in the same catchphrase. If it's a movie I like, that's different. But, you know, I mean, so they're passionate about it just as much as Dennis is passionate about it. And Dennis loves the idea that if we give him a title, Dennis, we're going for this, design for this, that's what he starts with. He starts with, this is the game, this is how I'm going to design it. I'm not just going to take a couple things, change it around a little bit, and let's move this around on my old game and, you know, just kind of fit it together and I'll give you a new toy and that'll be good. You know, Dennis is kind of like, I mean, I've never seen Dennis' games like copy one another. I mean, every one of them is unique to some point. D-E-N-N-I-S. The Dennis system. That, my friends, is the key to winning. Yeah, I appreciate that, David. And other people I've seen have mentioned that too, that my games don't typically look alike, and I try to always do something new and different on every game I do. Otherwise, it wouldn't be challenging. I love the challenge of fitting all this new stuff onto a play field, and when I have a problem and it's not working and it's not fitting, To me, that challenge of making that work is very satisfying. It was very satisfying. Dennis, that being said, is there anything you consider a Nordman trademark? Maybe goofy ramps.
    86:41
    In Sandy Falls? Yeah. You know what? That's the other thing. To Dennis' credit, I know many people who own all 3L Viber games, and all 3L Viber games are completely different playing games. You know, I mean, some of the games that have been brought back have many traits like their predecessors. But Dennis' games have always been unique to the point. I mean, I'm like thinking of all the different games you did, from Whitewater to Demoman with the cryoclaw, you know, to the Elviras and even Aliens. I mean, you know, there's one thing that we're going to address, and that's that Dennis designed the entire game of Aliens. Let me say something here. I've had two podcasts recently where they didn't really know what my input on Aliens was. And one was Chris, and one was another young guy who talked with the supposed designer of Alien, and they never mentioned me once. At least on Chris's podcast, they brought it up, but they weren't really sure what I did. And maybe that's my own fault for not promoting it and not promoting myself, but I showed David my drawing of Alien compared to the game that finally came out, and it's almost identical except the major change was the upper right flipper was moved. Moved over one lane so it had better shots. That's interesting because, you know, it was definitely made to sound like you had just started it and then Dave kind of took over and took it from there. So you had pretty much come to a conclusion on that game. Yeah, they even started to build my first whitewood. And I think, Chris, when you were talking to the Pinball Brothers, I think, and they weren't even sure if my first game was a widebody or not, but it was. It started out as a widebody. And that's the difference about Dennis. When he starts in a format like a widebody, he stays in that. And when he goes to a regular, it's a regular style. I mean, it's from the beginning. Cradle to grave is what I like to call it. Do you see Dennis getting a chance to make a wide body for a pinball? Sure. Why not? Okay. I mean, I don't see, you know, here's the thing. I don't see a problem with a wide body or a regular body. We'll look at the numbers and we'll play with them and we'll make it happen. If the game is great playing, hell yeah. I mean, it would be stupid to say, no, I'm never going to make a wide body again. Dennis, I want you to start working on Hercules Part 2. I don't want an 8-foot by 8-foot speed play one out there. It's perfectly free. It would be a wooden ball. It would be big foot. Yeah, there you go. Big foot. Well, how about, you know, American Pinball has always been a one-model company. Do you think there's any change to that strategy moving forward, like a pro premium LE type model, or are you going to stick to the one game in your set? No, I am working on that. So you'll have to wait and hear all the releases that I got. I've already talked to all my distributors about it. They're all on board with this. I'm starting to chew the numbers on that. So we'll have an announcement on that. That will probably be another podcast, and we'll talk about that. And I think you guys will find out that, you know, there is going to be some kind of a model change, but it's going to be completely different than what is the norm. Okay. So you checked, you said you were kind of listening to all the feedback and everything. I personally don't see a problem with it, but I know American's been given a lot of flack about the shape of the back box. Is that going to continue, or is that something you're looking at changing as well? Which shape do you mean? Do you mean the standard back box, or do you mean the Oktoberfest weird one? The roundy butterfly wing sort of. So, okay, we touched on a story subject. Even Dennis loves this subject because he looked at me and he goes, David, we've got to change that back box.
    90:29
    Those surroundings on the bottom just don't do it for me. And I said to him, I said, Dennis, you're going to have a problem signing those round things before. Now all of a sudden they're going to fall for you.
    90:41
    That's a good joke. So, Dennis, you don't like the cabinet either, but, you know, we'll look at it. We'll definitely look at it. But I will tell you that when you see an American pinball cabinet, be it a Houdini or Hot Wheels, it has the American look, the American pinball look. You can't go up to them and go, is that a Chicago – no, that's not Chicago. Is that a Stern? No, that's not a Stern. Is that a Jersey – no, that's not a Jersey Jet. You know it's an American pinball. But, David, the Edsel had a look, too.
    91:15
    Edsel was just way ahead of its time. I know. You know, I've heard the same thing about somebody telling me about the logo of American pinball. You should change the logo of American pinball. It looks like you're an airline. Who would have said that? What an asshole.
    91:31
    Hey, if you're self-proclaiming yourself, that's fine. I'll throw myself under the bus. Yeah, I said you should change the logo. It looks like an airline logo. Yes, I did. I'm going to have to push changing that back box with those two useless wings on it.
    91:48
    That's how you really feel. Yeah, useless brown wings that are down below. Yeah, okay, Dennis. We will look at that. Are we married to it? No. But we'll definitely look at it. But here's the other thing. So at one time, the American Pinball thought was that every back box and every game was going to be different. So Oktoberfest was actually supposed to have barrels on the sides of the back box to look like barrels of beer.
    92:15
    And then, you know. That would have been cool. There was a lot of things that they wanted to do differently. But in the manufacturing aspect, and Dennis will tell you, is when you go to build it, okay, I got back boxes for October, because I don't have any more for Houdini. You know, you can't change the line. You've got to wait until the new boxes come in for that. Oh, I don't have the back boxes for Hot Wheels, or I don't have for October. I only got Hot Wheel back boxes. You can't keep changing it. So if we're going to change it, it will be standard down. But, hey, we're looking at everything, guys. Can you tell us a little bit about your manufacturing? Because you kind of touched on that a second ago. I know you've moved to a bigger facility. Can you tell us at all about the number of games you think you can produce and give us some estimate when the line starts rolling? So currently the way we have it set up is with one game line. But Dennis walked through the warehouse and how everything's set up already, and that will change to the point that we could probably fit two or three game lines back there. And we have tons of room to grow in the new facility. So, you know, it's just timing is everything, guys. I mean, COVID, it was just not right. And, you know, I just want to say that I feel sorry for all those families who have lost their loved ones or people out there who have lost it. But, you know, and I put out a little thing is stay strong, stay safe, stay healthy and keep playing pinball. And I think that's kind of the little notation that I have to say about that for COVID. And just, you know, we have the room to grow and the expectations are going to be there. And we're going to build our games. and we're going to focus on that. Something about the factory. It is the cleanest, brightest factory I have ever seen. All of the offices and all of the reception areas, they all have marble floors. Wow. Beautiful place. It is gorgeous, but unfortunately, games slide on them. Really? So when you go into that tilt mode, it's just, forget it, you're done. You're sliding the game all over the place. Our sponsor, CoinTaker, sells these non-skid shoes you can put on your pinball in games, but it doesn't go around in a marble. There are distributors. I don't have any problem with Chris and Melissa. They're great folk. And to touch on pinball shows, I'm always happy to say that in 2009, one of their first shows that they ever went to was a show that I put on in Niagara Falls. The Niagara Falls Pinball and Game Room show that had over 100 machines for its first inaugural visit. It was founded by a lot of people that were dear friends of me. Phoebe was there. She brought like seven or eight of her games and Trent brought machines in. We had a tournament. We, you know, we just, we had it all out. And it's because of that little show that, you know, Chris and Melissa, they said, can we have this area? You can have all the area you want. You want the lights off to show the coins at your lights? You got it. We dropped the lights out. We just went all out for them. And that got me recognition really fast with two guys by the name of Rob Burke and Mike Pacek that after that show, they were like, you want to help us with this show, you know, Expo? and cut my teeth and worked my way through Expo all those years, dealing with Rob and Mike. And, you know, we're excited about this coming here. I know Christian wanted to talk about this for 30 seconds. Talk about it. Yeah, absolutely. So I literally had a meeting Monday night about Expo with Rob. We are so excited. There's going to be a new website that we're working on. It's an international website. So now it will be in, like, 10 different languages. There's a drop-down. and choose which language you want. It'll change the entire website to that language. I mean, there's so many. We're going to even put Japanese in there because we have a good following with our dear friends from Japan. This show is, we're pulling out all the stops. This year is going to be huge because we have a feeling, Rob and I both looked at it, you know, we put on the virtual show. And I want to tell you, that was a lot of work in a short period of time. We had our technical difficulties, but we accomplished what Rob and I wanted to do, It was give people who are stuck at home the Expo experience and get to watch that. And it wasn't just because Rob and I were standing in front of the camera. It's because all the good content brought to us by all the good support of those people who have been supporting Expo all those years as speakers and whatnot. So, you know, and just to have that bringing us all together, you know, it helped that Rob and I had good relationships. with these people, talking to people at 2 o'clock in the morning where they're sending us the 3-gigabyte file that has to air at 8 o'clock the next morning, and it's like, okay, we'll do this, you know? So there's a lot of passion with Rob and I about that. And so this coming year, Expo's going to have 70,000 square feet. Wow. Now, in comparison, what was the space in the old building? 30,000. Wow. Are you going to be able to fill all that space or are you going to fill house floor? We're definitely already pulling. My partner would say, get ready.
    97:25
    You guys are going to be like, you won't believe what we've done. I mean, I saw a picture. Now, the one great thing about Expo in years past is the people who brought machines. and I felt for them all the time when they had to unload in the back and go down this long hall and then bring it down through. How would you love to come to Expo and you get a phone call, says, Chris Transky, your booth is number 142. Please show up at the gate at 5 o'clock. You show up at the gate. You pull your vehicle right up to your booth, Chris. Take everything out. in your booth area, and then drive the car out. Well, that would be heaven, because I always equated that walk at the old building to, like, that long Steadicam shot in Goodfellas.
    98:23
    Coming through the back door, through the kitchen, say hi to the chef. And you're moving a machine, and they're looking at you like, what's wrong with you? You know, what are you doing with this big, giant machine moving it down this hallway? Yeah, everyone's in the hallway standing there, and you're like, excuse me? And they're looking at you like, how rude. I'm like, I have no choice. Yeah, we're looking at pictures, and I will tell you that there's a picture of the showroom, or the room that we're going to be in, and there's a semi sitting in the room. Okay, it looks like a Tonka truck. It looks like a toy semi sitting there, and I'm like, wow, this is going to be huge. So with that much space and international travel obviously being a goal with your website changes, do you feel like by October we're going to be at a point where you can fill that place and not have worries about coronavirus? And are you prepared to make changes as you move forward, or is it full-court press that it's going to happen? The way Rob and I look at the numbers and the way we're focusing on this, and listening to the doctors and the scientists and so forth, If we get on the right course, the numbers show that 90% or 80% of Americans will be immune, have the immune shot by August, which still gives us two months. We're going to do some unbelievable things at X1. And you know what? We're going to be the first show outside of COVID. So people are going to be like, I need to go to a show. And we're going to have a better show to go to than probably the world's biggest show. Now, granted, I love Texas Pinball Festival. It's a great show. And the team down there do a phenomenal show. And I feel sorry that they got canceled two years in a row. It's tough. I mean, I feel for them, and, you know, I will support the Texas guys. But at the end, I mean, the Expo has been running for so long. I mean, we were going to cancel, too, until, you know, I came up with the idea of a virtual show. I said to Rob, let's do it virtual. And he's like, what, are you crazy? What do you mean virtual? And it took a couple days. and believe it or not, I talked to my buddies at Stern, which is kind of funny. I come to American Pinball and I'm not getting the phone calls like I used to from my friends at Stern, but, you know, it's okay. I'm a professional. They can be professional and we'll still deal with them and so forth. And, you know, they're great guys. They have the passion too, you know. But I said, look, we're going to do a virtual show. You guys want to do a virtual tour of this thing? And immediately Gary got it. And Gary said, yeah, let's do that. That's awesome. them were on board and they were and then everybody else fell in suit and everybody else was on board and and you know it came out to be a great show and i think that you know we're going to be the first show back after covid and i think we're pulling out all the stops my only suggestion at any case whether you have to do virtual again or not make sure everybody that comes on your show clears their jokes ahead of time she has some ziggers in there frenchie oh no no no someone said a joke that was highly inappropriate and it was live, so it was like there's nothing you could do. What does that mean? Did I do it? I got censored in a couple things. I know that. I got hit in the head. I don't remember who it was. You guys have been more than gracious with your time. I know we've been on for a lot longer than we've been talking, sorting through some technical difficulties, so we really appreciate the amount of time you spent with us tonight. We are overly excited about these changes. It sounds like you guys have a lot of positive stuff on the horizon for American Pinball, and we can't wait to see what that is. And we'll keep you guys informed. Listen, this is the first 100 days. This is a lot of work to do. And I'm happy to have Dennis with me and I hope Dennis is happy to be with me too. And we're going to really definitely do a number. I'm excited to see what I come up with too.
    102:02
    We'll get Dennis' Skype problems worked out and we'll have you guys on again soon when you've got more to talk about. We're happy to have you. Sounds great. Thanks, Chris. Thanks, Christian. You're very welcome, guys. Thank you, Dennis, for coming on as well. Thank you, guys. Thank you. Bye-bye. Bye-bye, guys. Well, that does it for our American Pinball exclusive interview with David Fix and Dennis Nordman, who is now at American Pinball. Surprise. That is really awesome news, and it's exciting because, you know, Dennis has kind of been held back a little bit. He stressed a couple of times during the interview that he's really excited to actually have games be made because he's worked at so many companies where they've just kind of languished in a development cycle that was never-ending. And he can plant his feet at American Pinball and not be under contract, but an actual employee and all that. So that's got to be a relief as well. Absolutely. And you know what? David Fix, great head on his shoulders. He's well-spoken. I thought it was really cool that he was okay to talk about American Pinball's faults and what they're trying to do without sugarcoating their past and some of the hurdles that they've had. And he was very frank about what he's done and really came up with some cool ideas for what's going to happen moving forward with them. So I'm excited to see what's coming next. Yeah. Yeah, it was great to talk to David. He was very candid. Dropped a lot of bombs, too. He did. A lot of stuff that I wasn't expecting. We had talked about this interview leading up to it, and I kind of knew what to expect. And there was some information that he shared in there that I was not expecting. I was kind of surprised. And, yeah, he dropped some teasers as well, in addition, including the three young designers that we didn't get the names of that are going to work under Dennis. So we're excited for that. And he said people know these people. Yeah, exactly, exactly. So I'll be weaseling in for information. But he said he's going to come back on when he's got more information. I think we're his go-to podcast, which we're happy to do. And other than that, we have something to give away. All right. We have a little art contest to give away a Led Zeppelin team-signed Translight. And we asked you to poorly draw your favorite Led Zeppelin album cover because this is not an art contest in that who's the best artist. And it's not even an art contest as in who is the worst artist. It's just I think bad art is funny. I have actually a couple of books called Bad Art. So I thought it would be very fun to do that, and it would give everybody a chance. We got some very funny submissions, and we're going to pick one right now. So basically the way we did this is everybody who put in an entry, I have their name on a Post-it note put into this box, and I'm going to pick a winner by shaking the box.
    104:31
    Sounds like a little fortune cookie spouting. They look like Portuguese, too, because I didn't fold them up. They just kind of crinkled them up. And I'm going to pick this one. Let's see who wins. Drum roll, please. All right. Opening it up. It's supposed to go so it's up to itself. And the winner is... Harry Hill! All right. Yeah! All right. So the winner is going to send us your name and address, and we are going to forward that on to Stern, and we'll send your gift directly out to you. Congrats, man. Enjoy that translate. It's very cool. Signed by the whole team. And thank you for Stern for providing that and our man, Zach, who hooks all this stuff up for us. We appreciate that. And coming up on the next show, Christian. Dr. Pin! Dr. Pin! We have the man who saved Pinball. The biggest name in Pinball. The biggest fashion Pinball. Yes. Yeah, I mean, there are a few people that I have had on my bucket list and this guy is right at the top. Can't wait to talk to him. He is an absolute legend, and we have a lot of really fun things planned. I know he's been interviewed a million times, but... Taking a different road. If you haven't figured it out by now, it's Mr. Roger Sharp. And we're going to be talking about the current and future state of pinball, rather than his life story. You've heard that a million times. We've also got a very, very fun segment that we're going to do where we have gathered questions from all the industry superstars who are going to try and stump Roger with some pinball trivia. Every question that Roger gets right, A 20-pound bag of dog food is going to be donated to a military dog shelter. Thanks to our gracious sponsors again, Point Acre. How many times did they come up every episode? I know. Well, for good reason, man. For good reason, yeah. Yeah, that segment is called Stump the Stash, and it's going to be a lot of fun. So tune in for the next episode. And because it is January when this airs, you know, we've joked about the Twippies in the past, and we've joked about Kinada on our Facebook page. But in all seriousness, I want to avoid Twippy drama. We love Pinball Podcasts. We listen to almost all of them. There are some serious contenders this year from the Loser Kids, Jesse J, Fun Around, Pinball Show, Pinball Profile, a million others. War Mans. War Mans, of course. But I put a lot of time into this show. I can't emphasize how much time, though, Chris Branchie takes out of his life to put on such a polished podcast every few weeks. So I'm doing this podcast because it's a lot of fun. I get to talk to amazing names in the industry. but I honestly want to win this Twippy solely because I believe Franchi deserves it. So if you agree, please go vote our way for the best pinball podcast, and we really appreciate your support. Thank you, sir. And it's a labor of love, and it's something that we do for free. We do it because we enjoy it. As long as we enjoy it, we'll keep doing it. And thanks to everybody. I mean, our numbers are insane. So if we were doing this and nobody was listening, why bother? But we've got all the motivation to keep going because we've got great listeners, and a whole lot of them. So, thanks. Definitely vote for your favorite. Hopefully, we will be your favorite. But if not, that's fine, too. And let's look forward to finding out the results of that and also the industry awards. Coming up later this month. And to you, Mr. Dr. Penn.
    107:39
    That's actually pretty funny. Let's just leave that in. Yeah. Oh, yeah. And to you, sir, my dear friend, Christian. You and your family have a very happy new year. Be safe and sound. Stay in. Stay in and do puzzles. That's what I do. I'm going over to my mom's house because my parents have moved back from California. So I'm going over there for Christmas Eve, and we're going to put together a puzzle. Sounds like a party, man. My wife is adamantly against my kids staying up for New Year's, but I'm trying to sell it because they are of the age where that is like the coolest thing ever, to stay up until midnight. So we're going to try to make it happen. We'll see if I'm successful. Yes, have an awesome New Year's. Let's dump this shitshow of 2020 in the dumpster and move on to bigger and better things. Set it on fire right next to the Captain Fantastic pinball. That's right. And to all of you listeners, also have a super safe and happy new year. We look forward to doing this again for another year and a much better year. Keep playing pinball. Keep washing your hands. And we'll see you on the next episode. Good night, everybody. Good night, guys. It's super awesome.
    108:37
    Pinball show. And it's super awesome. I just thought you'd know. If you'd like to drop us a line or ask a question, we can be reached at superawesomepinball at gmail.com. Questions or comments may be read on the air. The original content of this podcast is copyright 2020 Asshat Radio Productions.
    109:16
    The commentary and opinions shared by the cast and guests do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the sponsors, Coin Taker, Chicago Gaming Company, and Back Alley Creations. Their sponsorships of this show only serve to add to their continuing support of the pinball community. Because we're going to be legends!
    109:31
    We're going to get there! We're going to do it here! It's just a theory! It's about to be legendary! Okay, okay, show's over. Bye-bye. Hey, that fucking chalupa sucks, dude.
    109:52
    Now it's time for some funny bloopers. Hang on one second. My cat is at the door and he's freezing his ass off. One second. All right.
    110:02
    Gotta let the kitty in. Kitty's outside getting cold. His little paws are frozen. So let that kitty in. None of that rhymed. La, la, la. That's why I don't write songs for a living. Yeah. I just sang the Frozen Key pause. Man, he came in, he's like a freaking ice cube. Nothing rhymed. It was sad.
    110:23
    It was very satisfying. Thank you.