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The Spinner Is Lit - Episode 68_It's Show Time

The Spinner Is Lit Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·3h 1m·analyzed·Oct 31, 2024
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Pinball Expo coverage, Sam Ginsberg tribute, Avatar/ABBA impressions, Alex Lambert tournament win, Chicago Gaming factory tour.

Summary

The Spinner Is Lit Podcast Episode 68 covers the hosts' experiences at Pinball Expo in Dixon, California, including a tribute to late pinball historian Sam Ginsberg, coverage of new machines (Avatar, ABBA, Barry O's Barbecue), Alex Lambert's tournament victory, and detailed factory tour insights from Chicago Gaming Company's Pulp Fiction production process.

Key Claims

  • Sam Ginsberg passed away recently and was a pioneering pinball collector and historian who documented machine serial numbers by hand on index cards before the internet era.

    high confidence · Spencer (host) opening tribute; confirmed by all three hosts with personal memories

  • Sam Ginsberg was featured in the pinball documentary 'Special Unlit' (released around 2007-2008) discussing his collection and documentation methods.

    high confidence · Spencer and Dan reference the film and Ginsberg's role in it

  • Alex Lambert won the Pinball Expo tournament with a 2.7 billion point game on Barry O's Barbecue, defeating his opponent who scored under 100 million.

    high confidence · Dan witnessed the tournament finals and provides specific scoring details

  • The Pinball Expo tournament used an 'Amazing Race' format where qualifying round winners (top 16) advanced to a finals bracket with set score thresholds.

    high confidence · Dan describes tournament structure; confirmed by Mark and Spencer

  • Chicago Gaming Company uses silk-screen printing rather than digital printing for playfields, and performs extensive quality control in manufacturing Pulp Fiction machines.

    high confidence · Mark reports directly from factory tour at Chicago Gaming

  • Avatar (JJP) had playable units at Pinball Expo and features pronounceable multi-ball modes with strong flow, shooting mechanics, visuals, and sound.

    high confidence · Dan played multiple games on Avatar; Mark likely to discuss further

  • ABBA and ABBA Voyage machines (Pinball Brothers) felt flimsy with weak flipper strength and questionable quality at their price point relative to Stern games.

    high confidence · Dan and Spencer both played ABBA machines and noted design/build concerns

  • Barry O's Barbecue is a game by David Fix inspired by Barry Osler's design legacy, incorporating mechanical elements from Osler's classic games (Barracora, Space Shuttle references).

Notable Quotes

  • “He was this little dude, and he had this big afro, and he always had a T-shirt on that was at least one size too small, and he was running around writing down numbers.”

    Dan @ early segment — Vivid character description of Sam Ginsberg's distinctive appearance and obsessive documentation behavior at early Pinball Expos

  • “I had a real hard time. You know, it has a long shot to kind of the back center... you have to kind of shoot right through the whole game, and it was a really hard shot to make.”

    Dan @ ABBA discussion — Critique of ABBA's playfield design and flipper weakness impacting core shot difficulty

  • “But you know, beyond that, I mean, Pinball Expo was solid. You know, it was a good show. It felt pretty busy. All of the pinball friends were there.”

    Dan @ Expo summary — Overall positive assessment of Pinball Expo's community atmosphere and attendance

  • “I think that the thing is a lot of the modern pinball people, they're not going to have the knowledge of the lore of Barry Osler to identify all the little things.”

    Mark @ Barry O's Barbecue discussion — Insight into generational knowledge gap regarding classic designer homages in newer games

  • “He hung a game. Like, it started off, ball one, like, I think Al put up like 100 million, and his opponent drained right out.”

    Dan @ tournament finals description — Details of Alex Lambert's dominant tournament performance with dominant ball 1 scoring

  • “Everything was done by hand. I mean, obviously they had machines and stuff, but it was done the old-fashioned way.”

    Mark @ Chicago Gaming factory tour — Observation about manual/artisanal manufacturing approach at Chicago Gaming Company

  • “They really take the time. Doug and the crew over there at Chicago Gaming Company really go through a quality control double the amount that most companies would do.”

    Mark @ factory tour analysis — Assessment of Chicago Gaming's quality control standards relative to industry competitors

Entities

Sam GinsbergpersonSpencerpersonDanpersonMarkpersonAlex LambertpersonRob BurkepersonDougpersonDavid Fixperson

Signals

  • ?

    event_signal: Comprehensive on-site Pinball Expo coverage including tournament format (Amazing Race), factory tours, machine availability, and attendance atmosphere

    high · Dan and Mark attended in person; Mark toured Chicago Gaming factory; tournament streamed on Twitch (Elk Grove Pinball); 100-150 machines reported

  • ?

    historical_signal: Sam Ginsberg's death recognized as loss of pre-digital era pinball documentation expertise and direct connection to early Pinball Expo history

    high · Extended tribute acknowledging Ginsberg's hand-documented serial number archive, 40+ years of documentation, role in Pinball Database concept, appearance in Special Unlit documentary

  • ?

    machine_intel: Avatar (Jersey Jack) positive market reception at Pinball Expo with strong gameplay flow and aesthetic appeal; multiple playable units present

    high · Dan: 'JJ Avatar is great. Like, it's super fun... It shot really good. It flowed really well. It looks great. It sounds great.'

  • ?

    product_concern: ABBA machines (Pinball Brothers) exhibit quality control issues: flimsy overall construction, weak flipper strength affecting shot accessibility, questionable durability at premium price point

    high · Dan: 'That is a cheap-feeling game... it feels almost fake... Those flippers feel weird... They were too weak.' Mark: 'it feels really flimsy'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Pinball Expo tournament returns after hiatus with Amazing Race format (qualifying rounds → finals with set score thresholds); organized by Greater Sacramento Pinball League

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.544

0:00
Wake up sleepyheads, it's party time. Rock you in the train control Welcome to episode 68 of the Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast. I'm your host, Spencer, and with me, my co-host, Dan. Hey, what's going on, folks? And Mark. Hey, everyone. You know, a lot going on. Well, you guys got a lot going on. I didn't do fucking shit as usual.
1:13
I've been doing house projects every weekend is what I've been doing. And stuff with the boys. It's been good, though, going to hockey games. Before we get deep into the weeds of Pinball Fund I want to give a quick shout out of remembrance To one of the OG pinball collectors People in the hobby And that's Sam Harvey Who passed away recently If you didn't know who Sam Harvey was If you're a listener and you're newer to the hobby He was one of the OGs Like way back before the internet He was a collector or maintenance and repair guy, historian. And one of the really cool things he would do, and he never used computers, he would go around to shows and get the serial numbers off games and document them. And he would write it down in notebooks and put it on cards, like three-by-five cards, by hand, and would document and trace the history of where a game had been, like, you know, per se. you know, a twilight zone that you own and you might live in, you know, Reno or Tacoma or somewhere. Might have once been in a bowling alley in Syracuse, New York. And he would trace stuff like that. He's a really interesting guy. There's an interview with him in the movie, Session One Lit, a pinball movie. It came out around, oh, damn, when did that come out? Around 2007, 2008? Yeah, something like that. Yeah. He was a neat character. I had the privilege of talking to him a couple times at Pinnagogo back in the day, and he was just a really neat guy with a really neat old pinball collection. And, you know, anyway, so remembering Sam Harvey, one of the OGs of Pinball Collective, who's gone on to be up in heaven playing pinball. Sam was a great guy. I had a chance to meet him at Pinnagogo as well one day. And I remember from that video from Special Unlit when he had all his documents that were all the things that he recorded. It was pretty amazing how many files and files of stuff he had for all the pinball machines that he recorded.

high confidence · Mark explains design philosophy; Spencer and Dan discuss Osler homages

  • Pinball Expo is a low-key, family-friendly show in Dixon with 100-150 machines, cost of $30-40 for a 3-day pass, and minimal wait times compared to larger industry events.

    high confidence · Dan and Mark describe the event scale, pricing, and atmosphere

  • X-Men (Stern) had just been announced at the time of Pinball Expo and was not yet available for play.

    high confidence · Dan notes X-Men was too new to appear at the show

  • “So it's fun little stories like that... In the making of Attack from Mars, they had a hard time with the original little Martians that bounce up and down.”

    Spencer @ early segment — Anecdote from Mike Mackey about engineering challenges in Attack from Mars design

  • “It's not a bad game. It's not a bad layout. I think it's never going to be a top 50 game, but I think later on, people are going to go, you know, they didn't make a lot of those.”

    Mark @ Barry O's assessment — Prediction that Barry O's Barbecue may gain collector value and league popularity over time

  • “Talking to me and Brian like somehow reawakened this guy's pinball spirit.”

    Dan @ Bart/Mel's Diner story — Anecdote about community impact of pinball enthusiasm converting a lapsed collector (Bart) back into the hobby

    • Barry Osler
    person
    Mike Mackeyperson
    Bartperson
    Brianperson
    Jungle Queen Steveperson
    Brad Grantperson
    Shannon Milesperson
    Rickperson
    Michaelperson
    Pinball Expoevent
    Chicago Gaming Companycompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Pinball Brotherscompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Elk Grove Pinballorganization
    Special Unlitproduct

    high · Dan describes format: 'you basically, there's a score that gets set, and then to continue on, you have to pass that score'; Alex Lambert advanced through qualifying to win finals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Barry O's Barbecue gaining positive reappraisal post-tournament due to Alex Lambert's dominant performance and revelation of Barry Osler design homages; initial theme-based skepticism overcome

    high · Mark: 'I made a believer... It's not a bad game... it might end up being one of those games... in a lot of league and tournament rotations'; Spencer: 'That thing's pretty fun, especially in a competitive environment'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Chicago Gaming Company employs manual/artisanal manufacturing with hand-based silk-screen printing (not digital) and double-standard quality control; longer production timelines justified by craftsmanship

    high · Mark from factory tour: 'Everything was done by hand... they do silk screening. They don't do digital print... they really go through a quality control double the amount that most companies would do'

  • ?

    community_signal: Anecdote about casual community conversation reactivating lapsed collector (Bart) who subsequently re-engaged in hobby purchasing; illustrates grassroots community growth mechanism

    medium · Dan: 'Talking to me and Brian... reawakened this guy's pinball spirit... next thing we know, this guy's like, oh, I just bought this game... and now the guy's back in pinball'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barry O's Barbecue intentionally incorporates mechanical references to Barry Osler's classic game designs (Barracora in/lane bosses, Space Shuttle saucers, pop bumper caps) as design tribute

    high · Mark: 'It's a compilation of all his greatest games... pops bumper caps that looked like grills... had to come up with a game to go around it'; Spencer: 'there's a lot of homage to Osler'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball Brothers ABBA priced at industry-standard tier ($7k-15k range) but perceived as poor value relative to Stern quality; industry feedback suggests $1k-2k price reduction needed for market acceptance

    medium · Dan: 'I don't quite get what Pinball Brothers is trying to do at their price point... if that game was like $1,000 less than, like, a Stern, people would probably give it a chance'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Discussion of game design philosophy: Hurricane and Party Zone defended as fun despite minimal rules depth; counterargument that simple, high-flow games have legitimate design value independent of rule complexity

    medium · Spencer: 'I don't think every game needs to be ridiculous and deep... It's a game about theme parks and roller coasters... the only point is just to repeat shots... That's sometimes fun, though'

    • 3:41
    Yeah, he was definitely a fixture at every Pinnagogo. especially the early ones that I remember. And the thing that was like, he was this little dude, and he had this big afro, and he always had a T-shirt on that was at least one size too small, and he was running around writing down numbers. And I was always mystified. I'm like, what is this guy doing? And it wasn't until later on, probably, honestly, I never really got the chance to talk to him much. You know, I waved. but it wasn't really until Special and Lit that, you know, I kind of understood his motivations, and I was all like, oh, that's cool. I mean, crazy, but cool. But it was such an indicator of the kind of person who, at least at that moment before pinball kind of blew up, was a just dyed-in-the-wool, completely insane pinball enthusiast.
    4:42
    Yeah. You know, he operated on another level, you know, that, you know, I didn't get. I mean, it's a shame, too, with all that data that it's not in some sort of spreadsheet or something where it was going to be usable. I mean, who knows if anybody will be able to make sense of all that data that he recorded over the course of, you know, decades. Yeah, probably like 40 plus years, probably. Yeah, I had an encyclopedia, you know, just an encyclopedia of knowledge about especially, like, old shit, wedgeheads, stuff like that. Like wood rails. Yeah, you'll never replace the kind of knowledge that these guys have. And, you know, hopefully everybody takes a little bit more time to talk with some of these eccentric old pinball maniacs before we lose them. Yeah, I recommend that to everybody. If you've seen one of the old-timers of the show, make sure and shake their hand, thank them for all they've done, whether they're industry people or just other fans.
    5:49
    And glean the knowledge. There are so many great stories I know that the three of us have from meeting with, you know, the collectors and industry people, and they'll share really fun stories. I shared one on here a few times that Mike Minicord told at a dinner one year, told me and Rusty, we're sitting at dinner together. I'll do it real quick.
    6:13
    In the making of Attack from Mars, they had a hard time with the original little Martians that bounce up and down. The materials they were using, they start bouncing up and down, and the arms and legs just fly off.
    6:28
    Right? So they kept going back to the dry board until they found the right compound, to where they would flip, you know, they would flap, rubbery, but then they would hold together for play after play after play. So it's fun little stories like that. Yeah. Anyway, so not a Sam Harvey story per se, but, you know, in the movie Special and Little, Sam Harvey, and he had all those back glasses. Remember, he pulled out like a perfect devil's-gathered back glass. And Dan and I have a special affinity for that game because we both own the same one. In fact, I bought Dan's from him. Well, I got it in a trade, but for Black Rose. You bought it from me. I did buy it from you. I bought it from Sparky. You bought it from Sparky, who I think bought it from Adam, right? I don't know. Maybe. So, yeah. Cool. And, you know, the other thing about Sam Harvey is he kind of was the precursor to the Internet Pinball Database, when you think about it. He really was. So it's really cool that he kind of paved the way, and then somebody took it to the next level and had a digital version of all the collection of machines that are available or that were manufactured in the time that they were manufactured and all the specs that go with it. So it's cool.
    7:51
    Yeah. So you probably personally knew the pinball history of half the games in California. Exactly, yeah. Sure. Yeah. He was a West Coast guy, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I don't know exactly where he is. He's always at all the pinnacogos. And up until his health started to fail, I know he used to go to a lot of the expos as well. In fact, I believe he was at the first expo.
    8:13
    Again, he was another OG, man, you know, with a lot of those guys, you know, that were around for so long. And he's going to be missed. So shout out to you, sir. And thank you for all you did for the hobby. Yes. So we're going to move on. You guys have been busy. A working title of the episode, I don't even know if I sent it in the show notes, is I don't even know what the hell it is. It didn't come out. It's showtime. Is it showtime? I don't know. We didn't come up with it. I like that one. I think it should be Mr. Stop Goes to Expo. Mr. Stop Goes Ambo. Dan went to Finnego Go and Spencer did your fucking shit.
    8:58
    Exactly. Right. I pulled the bad carver's disposal out from under my kitchen sink and replaced it with just pipe. Anyway, and yelled at Mickey about handing me tools.
    9:14
    A lot. So, yeah, I was getting tired and frustrated. My knees hurt. Anyway. I need a Phillips screwdriver. I don't know if this is Phillips, but it's yours. It's yours, yeah. Ah. So you're going to talk to us, Dan, about Pinnagogo because you went to Pinnagogo.
    9:33
    Yes, I went to Pinnagogo. It was in the usual spot in Dixon. And, you know, for those of you who listen to the show, I'm sure most of you have been to Pinnagogo, and if you haven't, it's a little family-type show. You know, there's probably, you know, 100, 150 machines. this year we had a tournament which was a lot of fun um but the biggest thing was of course we do usually see a couple of the newer releases so i got a chance to put my hands on avatar like i walked in you know i paid it's like i think it's like 30 or 40 bucks for the whole weekend for three days which you know you're never going to beat that made a lap of the sales War, ran into a couple of our longtime buddies, Jungle Queen Steve and Brad Grant, and they were on Avatar, so I jumped on a game with them. And, you know, I'm sure that Mark will have a lot to say about it, and maybe we'll discuss it more in depth later, but JJ Avatar is great. Like, it's super fun. I had no idea what I was doing. I think I put two, three games on it over the course of the show, and I never, ever figured out how the heck it worked. I was just hitting shots and, you know, starting multi-balls that had names that I couldn't pronounce.
    10:57
    And then, you know, but it shot really good. It flowed really well. It looks great. It sounds great. I think for the people who are into Avatar, it's going to make them happy. and, you know, I played some of the old favorites. I think at the point, you know, where you've gone to a show for, you know, 10 or 15 years, you know, you probably are pretty familiar with what's going to be there. You know, there were a couple surprises. I put a lot of games on Atari Superman.
    11:29
    I love that game when I find one that plays nice. I got to throw down on some Berrio's Barbecue, which ended up really being kind of an unexpected star of the show. It was kind of off to the side in the tournament room where it plays in majorly later. So I got to put a few games on that. And that's just, that's an underrated game. It's not a bad game, is it? It's not a bad game at all. Like, yeah, it's stupid as hell. Yeah. But it's fun. Like, it shoots well. It's got good rules. I mean, I feel like the code is tighter than the code on Galactic Tank Force. It never lost the ball. It never forgot to give me points. The sound never cut out. And then ultimately I got to play the other brand-new arrival that showed up there, which was ABBA. They had both an ABBA Voyage and a regular ABBA machine. And that is a cheap-feeling game. Yeah.
    12:28
    Like it feels almost fake. You know, it's not bad. I mean, I think Voyage actually looks pretty good. The regular ABBA looks pretty shaky. I'm not a big fan of the band or the music, but, you know, if you're into it, it's represented. I'm sure everything in the game means something. It's got a big plastic helicopter. I guess that's cool. I like the side shot into the spinner, but just it feels really flimsy. Yeah, those flippers feel weird, don't they? I don't know what the deal is with those. Yeah, I just, I don't know. Like, I don't quite get what Pinball Brothers is trying to do at their price point. You know, I think if that game was like $1,000 less than, like, a Stern, that, you know, people would probably give it a chance. But, you know, if you're into ABBA, it is a pinball machine. It does play.
    13:27
    It flows nicely, but it's just only if the flippers are at the right strength, right? Were they okay at the show, or were they too weak? they were too weak. It has a neat layout. And I think that, you know, you're right. It does shoot pretty well when it shoots. I'm sure on home power it's a lot, lot better. But I had a real hard time. You know, it has a long shot to kind of the back center. If you think of Indianapolis 500, where that center shot is to, like, start modes and do the extra ball and all that, it's kind of that shot. You have to kind of shoot right through the whole game, and it was a really hard shot to make. So, you know, for people who love ABBA, I'm sure there's something there to like. It wasn't anything that I was going to like. But beyond that, it was a lot of hanging out, playing old stuff. I played a bunch of games of Hurricane.
    14:18
    I think Hurricane is a terrible game that I love for some reason. Like I don't get why, but I just love that game.
    14:27
    And I don't really remember there being a lot of rarities there this year. It was just, you know, kind of the stuff that you expect to see. But on the second day, we had a tournament, which is returning to Pinnagogo after some time away, and it was put on by a friend of the show, Shannon Miles, and his crew from the Greater Sacramento Pinball League. So I'm pretty sure I got that right. And it had kind of an interesting format because it had qualifying rounds, but then when you got through the qualifying, it was like a great, I think it's called Great Race.
    15:10
    Have you ever played in that style event, Mark? Do you mean Amazing Race? Amazing Race. That's what it was. Okay. Uh-huh. So, yeah, you basically, there's a score that gets set, and then to continue on, you have to pass that score.
    15:27
    Yes. That is a great format. And that was for the finals, correct? Yeah, that was for, you know, basically if you got through qualifying, I think it was the top 16, then moved on to this amazing race format.
    15:40
    And friend of the show, host of the show, part of the show, we haven't seen him for a while, but I'm sure he'll be back. Alex Lambert qualified and right off the bat had a really shaky game on Pulp Fiction. And we figured he was out. We had actually cut out to dinner, and I had left the streaming to Rick and whoever he could get to stream with him. And so we were following on our phones, though, because we're nerds, and we saw this game of Alex's Rock. Oh, yeah, he's done. But he survived, and he actually went on to win the whole event.
    16:21
    Really? Yeah, he absolutely, the final game was Barry O's Barbecue, and he just absolutely hung one up. I can't remember the guy who he played. The guy who he played was also really, really good. Shows how much prep I did. Like a week ago, I would have remembered this just in my defense. But, yeah, he hung like a 3-billion-point game on this guy, and this guy I don't think even hit 100 million. And, yeah, it was a clinic. It was like a 20-minute-long game. Wait, did you say over 2 billion? Is that what I heard? I think it was like $2.7 billion. What? Holy cow. That is a lot for Barry's O's. Yeah, he hung a game. Like, it started off, ball one, like, I think Al put up like $100 million, and his opponent drained right out. And then ball two, you know, he probably put up a little score. And then ball three, I think it was ball three, He just went off like it went on forever.
    17:26
    And we were like, at what point do you stop? Because this is, you know, this is a newer game, and you might be playing this game to death. But Alex was in the zone, man. He wasn't stopping for nothing. And gravity finally got the better of him. And you could see the poor guy who he was playing just was like, oh, my gosh, man. like, what do I have to do? But, I mean, he went after it and played for a couple minutes, but he had a drain, and Al ended up walking with it. So it was really, really exciting to be there for that and to see a good friend of ours win. You know, I mean, maybe not the biggest event, but, you know, it was a tournament at a show. I think he got 50 whoppers and a couple hundred dollars and a nice trophy. So, you know, congratulations to Alex for just – it was so exciting to watch the finale. I know he tries so hard in those tournaments, and I'm really happy that he finally came off with a win. That's awesome. It's his biggest win so far, you know. Of his pinball career? Of his pinball career. Yeah. And, you know, Alex is just the coolest dude, man, just the sweetest guy and such a good ambassador for pinball. Absolutely. And so we're all real happy for him. And like Dan was talking about, I watched the stream. I didn't watch it live. I watched it later because I was doing something. And you can watch it on Twitch. It's Elk Grove Pinball. Is it on YouTube also? It is, yeah. Okay. No, I don't think it's on YouTube. Is it on Twitch? I'm sorry. Okay. Rick's got that one figured out yet. Okay. So it's only on Twitch. So, but it's Elk Grove Pinball on Twitch, and you can watch that news fast forward up to the finals. And, yeah, so, and I was joking with Dan, like right after it happened, a couple days later we were talking. I'm like, you know, he's got probably sold a dozen more of those barbecue games for American Pinball. That we all now know more about growing than we ever thought we would. It made me a believer I'm telling you You know what, in the room where I sat At Golden State, I said It's not that bad It's fun When the flippers are set at the right level That shot Even though a spinner is a weird place To have it on the ramp It's very satisfying when you hit it It's not a bad game It's not a bad layout I think it's never going to be a top 50 game But I think later on And people are going to go, you know, they didn't make a lot of those. And that thing's pretty fun, especially in a competitive environment, you know. Yeah. It might end up being one of those games that ends up in a lot of league and tournament rotations because it's a good league and tournament game. It's a good tournament game. It is. You know, like, Osler probably made those pop bumper caps that looked like they were grills. Isn't that great? And then had to come up with a game to go around it. I got to come up with something here. Yeah. Genius. What are we doing? Yeah. No, it looked great. It looked great. Like I said, he has so many elements of Barry Osler. I mean, he's got the, you know, like Barracora, where you have the in lanes with the boss. What is it, chef and boss or something like that? Yeah, something like that, yeah. Right? And then you have the three targets, the in line, well, you can't really call them in line targets. They're side targets through the orbit.
    21:04
    You know, and then, of course, you've got the two saucers on the left and right, like space shuttle. So there's a lot of homage to Osler on all the designs from his famous games, and that's what people overlook. A lot of times they look at the theme and they go, oh, this thing sucks. It really is cool because it's kind of like a compilation of all his greatest games. But yet all those same people will fucking just, like, eat somebody's butthole for a fucking new fucking J-pop game. Right. Even the cardboard one. You know.
    21:36
    Hold on to that, boys. I think that the thing is a lot of the modern pinball people, they're not going to have the knowledge of the lore of Barry Osler to identify all the little things. And they just see a game about barbecue. Right. You know what? Don't judge the book by its cover. They never put a corner on a phoenix or a scorpion or a... I don't know if that has to do with what I was saying, but... They're Osler games. Don't judge a book by its cover, because the truth is, it's a solid pinball machine. It really is. It plays well and sounds good.
    22:19
    And, yeah. And if you do, you know, know the history of Barry Osler, the man, and, you know, you do have a love for pinball, which is probably where this whole idea came from. You know, David Fix, if nothing else, is an OG pinball fan who was a good friend to Barry Osler. It is a tremendous tribute to the man and his work. But, you know, it'll probably go down in history as, oh, that was the stupid game with the barbecue theme. But it's a good game, man. It's a good game. I like it.
    22:58
    I like it a lot. But, you know, beyond that, I mean, Peter Gogo was solid. You know, it was a good show. it felt pretty busy all of the pinball friends were there was a good turnout of machines it felt a little gappier than in some recent years which might just be the season it was kind of unseasonably hot but if you are in the Northern California area and you're ever looking for just a really good low key you can go there and spend 2 or 3 hours and see everything or you can spend two days and just play the crap out of games as much as you want without waiting in long lines. You're talking to friendly people. Have a tasty hot dog. Buy some junk from the vendors. You know, Pinnacogo is a fun show. It's not the grandpappy of shows, which somebody probably went to the following week, but it's a good time. What was the rarest or most unique game? at Pinnacle. Yeah, what was the rarest game there? I don't think that there were any of the super rare games this year. Like, I don't recall there was no Kingpin or no Big Bang Bar or anything like that. It just felt like a lot of kind of the usual suspect kind of games. Okay. You see a good amount of the new Sterns. There was no X-Men yet. X-Men, I think, had just been announced, so it was probably a little early for that. But, yeah, it was, you know, you never know what's going to show up at Pentagogo, man. You get some old school games and you get some state-of-the-art stuff. But this year the game lineup didn't really, like, I didn't see anything that I was like, oh, my gosh, I can't believe one of those is here. I mean, for me, you know, I got excited because I saw Hurricane. Like, I'm going to play the crap out of that terrible game. The only reason you don't own a Hurricane is because you've got no room and you have to get rid of something else you like better. You know, the only reason I don't own a Hurricane is because I never find one cheap.
    25:14
    Really? I would make the room for Hurricane, but I'm not spending $4,000 on one. Yeah, exactly. Like, $1,800, it's a go. Yeah, $2,000, I'll buy it if it's in good shape. It's got to be at least in decent shape because I don't know if anyone makes the ramps and stuff for that game. I was part of a $100 hurricane buy. I remember that. It was a parts machine. Wasn't it like flooded or something? I don't even know what it was. I was determined that we could fix it, but Brian said I was out of my fucking mind, and he was probably right. He said it was a top-end, wasn't he? He's like, dude, it's missing boards. It's a hurricane. The play field's warped. He took the coin door off, and the cabinet fell apart. I was like, ah, we could have fixed it. Yeah, but he got it for the Transformer for another game. I forget what it was. So we bought it because he needed the Transformer out of it for Gilligan's. That's right. Oh, okay. A lot of those parts went into, like, I think a lot of the parts from that game went into My Creature from the Black Lagoon, and other parts of it went into other games. I mean, you know, it had a couple boards, and, you know, it was a good parts game, and Then I think we sold the play field off for like 75 bucks, which, you know, basically was most of the cost of the game. I think that the craziest thing about that game is we bought it from a guy named Bart.
    26:35
    And Bart has a cafe, Mel's Diner, out in Jackson. I ate at that place. Okay. So if you're ever out that way, you know, super good guy, super good food, and he has like a little bar by it, and he has four or five pinball machines in it. Well, talking to me and Brian like somehow reawakened this guy's pinball spirit.
    27:03
    And so it was like we got him talking about games. We told him about Golden State. We told him about, you know, everything that we do. And next thing we know, this guy's like, oh, I just bought this game. I just bought that game. you know I sold this I sold that and you know so now the guy's back in the pinball and I think several people in the group have picked up you know newer sterns from him my black knight sort of rage was actually one that he had bought oh wow he was like getting out he was like gonna just go off everything and get out of it till he talked he was out like he was out this was just this is just junk that he had laying around right and yeah we got him back into it yeah it was pretty cool. It just goes to show that you have a conversation with a guy and the next thing that you know, that guy is like, oh man, pinball is awesome. I'm back into it, baby. That's cool. Is there a wizard mode on that game or no? On Hurricane? Yeah. No, I think Hurricane is just the endless grind. I don't think Hurricane even has modes. Wow. It's got things you can do, but I think everybody hates that game because it's just really grindy. That game needs a rewrite. That's what I'm saying. It's perfect as it is. Yeah. It's a perfect grind. It's got giant ramps and it's got a bunch of chute and it's got very decent sound calls. Like, that game is cool. I think that they should do Hurricane Remake. Yeah? No, I don't think they should do that at all. You're not just some company trying to charge you $9,000 for a hurricane.
    28:44
    Yeah, I don't know if the code could even save that. So the code would be, they just teach you the exact same code. Yeah.
    28:53
    It's like 1992 Alley Williams code. It's just like, what do you do? You play pinball. But why? I don't know. Is it deep? No, it is not. It says it's there. And you start a podcast and you talk about pinball a lot. And, yeah. Yeah. I just, you know, like I said, I don't think every game needs to be ridiculous and deep. You know, it's a game about theme parks and roller coasters, right? Right. You throw balls at clowns, you ride Ferris wheels, the ramps have roller coaster names, and basically the only point is just to repeat shots. Right. That's sometimes fun, though. Yeah, it's got that cool spinning back glass. Like, it has an old game flavor. Yeah. It does. And you don't see it very often. It's like, you know, Party Zone.
    29:40
    Right. Party Zone is a crappy game, but it's fun. Yeah. I don't think anyone's going to be like, oh, my God, man, if you play that Party Zone, it's amazing. You know, friends of the show. It's hilarious. I love it. Yeah, in terms of sophistication, Party Zone's like 20 times more complicated. Do you remember a few years ago when somebody left a Party Zone on a curb and somebody called Michael and he went and picked it up? Yeah, I almost bought that. It was in nice shape, relatively nice. Yeah. Did you put it on a curb? It was in the neighborhood pickup pile. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, my gosh. Somebody called Michael and said, it's right over here. Go get it. And he did. Yep. And then, like all of Mike's projects, it sat around for a couple years. Yeah. And then he tried to sell it off. And I was first in line. And then he said, hey, this other guy really wants it. Would you be fine stepping aside? And I said, yeah, I mean, I don't need the Bogard. You know, it wasn't like it was my dream machine. It was just a good deal, and I thought it would be a fun project. So I passed on it, and I regret every single moment. No, not really.
    30:53
    Mike took care of me on some other deals. I think that kind of led to me getting my Whitewater and my Bram Stokers. So I can't complain too much about passing on Party Zone. But it is another one of those games that, like, you know, black rose, right? It's not complicated. It doesn't need to be complicated. It's just fun. It's quirky. It has that early 90s flavor when DMDs were new and special. I'll always have a weird soft spot in my heart for Hurricane.
    31:22
    Cool. Well, I think it's fun if it's no flip. Yeah, the rim shots are great. The rim shots are great. The movement of the ball is very satisfying. And you got a little coffee break you can have while it's going in the Ferris wheel because it's got a double Ferris wheel. I try to do my taxes. It's cool. It's a good game. It's not a great game, but it's good enough. Yeah. All right. Well, we're going to, unless, Dan, do you have anything else to add? No, man. I want to talk about Expo. I want to talk about Expo, too. So, we're going to hand it over to you, Mark, because you were our genuine certified correspondent to Pinball Expo. Yes, I was. And I have to say that it was an absolute blast to be at Expo for all the days that were available. I have to say Rob and Bridget Burke, who put on the show, were outstanding in how many activities there were to do at the show. There were a ton of games to play. There was a great homebrew section, and I'm going to go through that in a little more detail. but I'm just kind of giving a little synopsis that it had a lot to offer. Plenty of factory tours, which was great to go to ones that you never get to go to. And the people were awesome. It had a great vibe. It felt a lot like Pinnagogo. It did not feel like an industry show. It felt a lot more just hanging out with your buddies playing pinball, but hanging out with the people from the companies as well. It was just a really fun experience. and everything that Rob promised when I texted him or when he said it on podcast, he fulfilled his promise. It exceeded my expectations, and it was outstanding. So as someone who's never done it, why don't you walk us through what a day at Expo is like? What a day is like with Expo? Okay. What a day at Expo like. Where did you start? What did you do? Okay, so on Tuesday, we had a chance to go and play in a tournament. So I got in Tuesday. I was staying with my father, and I visited him before I drove up to Expo, and that was on Tuesday. When we got there, or when I was there, then we had a chance to go to the Chicago Gaming Company factory. And in there, we got to see how the Pulp Fictions were manufactured from the beginning. And what's really interesting about Chicago Gaming is, number one, it doesn't look like a pinball company when you look at it from the outside. It actually says cabinet company on the front of the door, which I thought was really interesting. And then it had, of course, on the door it had Chicago Gaming Company. But when you went into the factory, everything was done by hand. I mean, obviously they had machines and stuff, but it was done the old-fashioned way. One thing that I didn't know is that when we went through the tour, one of the things that they do is they do silk screening. They don't do digital print. So you're wondering why the play fields are so vibrant and colorful is they do all the silk screening for their games. So that was really interesting to see that process. Wondering why it takes so long to get games out. I'm starting to see why. because they really take the time. Doug and the crew over there at Chicago Gaming Company really go through a quality control double the amount that most companies would do. So it goes through one phase, and then once it's all ready to go in the box, sorry, not in the box, but in the cabinet, then they test it again for every single switch, every single gameplay,
    35:18
    thorough testing done. and then they take that and then obviously then they're ready to ship it to those customers. Now, they had a lot of LEs that were sitting in boxes, but most of them were going to foreign countries. So it looks promising that they are in the process of getting those LEs out, I'd say in the next month or so, domestically here in the United States. But they have a lot of games that were in boxes, ready to go, shipped to different countries. There was a whole bunch of different countries that were labeled on the boxes themselves of where they were going, which was pretty interesting. But the tour was awesome. They had one machine that was made in the 40s when they were doing the old play fields and the other woodworking that needed to be done with the Williams and Bally machines. This machine was on this ancient operating system, And the story that happened is that one of the guys that used to work at the factory passed away, and now no one can use it because no one knows how to use it. So now they're getting new equipment to replace that. He was the only person who knew. Yeah, he was the only one that knew. And it was really interesting to see a lot of history, thinking those games that I played in college and in high school were made in that building. Many of the cabinets, almost all the play fields before Stern started making them, they were all made by Chicago Game Company. So it was really eye-opener to see all the displays of all the play fields that were done by them. And now we know why the colors are so awesome to look at and really pop out when you play the game is because it was all silk screened. And now most of the modern ways of doing things are all with digital printing. So that was a great opportunity. They gave us a free t-shirt, which was cool. They gave us a cookie that said Chicago Gaming on it, a little swag bag before we went on the tour. And then before we went on the tour, they had all the games from all the things that they made from Pulp Fiction to Medieval Madness, all the remakes, all in one room that we could play while we were waiting. But it was nice. It was really interesting to see the process of how they go from step one with the play field to adding all of the things with the metal ramps and the metal guides and the posts and all those other things that have to be in there. It's a lot and a lot of parts that you don't realize. It was funny. We were in this one room, and you could see all the heads of all the characters from Pulp Fiction. and they're just sitting on the shelf ready to be installed into the game. It was really neat. Now, it wasn't that big of a facility compared to the other ones that I visited, but definitely they take a lot of love and care into making those machines, and that's why you have such good quality with very little problems coming from them. And now I have a little more empathy towards them, understanding that those games take a while to make, and they really want to have them in perfect condition before they get sent out to the customer. So I see why it takes longer than other manufacturers. So I was pretty impressed with how beautiful the quality of the games were before they were actually boxed up. So that was a great opportunity to learn everything about all the things that Chicago Gaming is doing. They didn't have any other secrets or anything going on except that they were working on the LEs for the Pulp Fiction. So that was really cool. So that was the Tuesday tour. Then after that, we went to Galloping Ghost Arcade. Oh, nice. And that was very interesting because I've never seen a video arcade that huge. It had, I can't recall how many games. I think like 800 video games in one room. I don't know how they kept the place comfortable. They must have the air conditioning running like year-round to keep that place cool. But it was unbelievable how many games and how many rows and rows and rows of video games there were. Now, it was not the best place to have three busloads of people that went to the Chicago Gaming Tour to congregate inside of a building that was just chock full of video games where you could only basically stay with the people if you were staying in a line where the video games were. So it was not the best experience for people. There was supposed to be pizza ready. It was kind of a cluster. It didn't work out so well. The good news is that we were able to leave early because we drove instead of taking the bus. So my friend Steve and I left, and we went to the tournament. And it was crazy because one thing you have to understand when you're driving in Chicago is you've got to give yourself like 30 or 45 minutes extra of how long it would take you to get there. Because the traffic. Not as bad as the Bay Area. Oh, traffic is horrible. Not as bad as the Bay Area. It still was moving, but it was definitely a lot of traffic. and you really had to make sure that you gave yourself extra time to get from one place to the other. So real quick, before we leave Galax and Ghost. Now, my understanding, like, I didn't know that they really had much of a pinball game there. I thought that they were much, much more about, I know in terms of arcade games, they have one of the world's preeminent collections, and they have impossibly rare one-of-one prototypes and just stuff that you never see anywhere. And I know that they have a couple, like, really super unusual pinball machines, like they have a Skippy Predator.
    41:26
    Right. Do they have a lot of pinball there? So that's a great question, Dan. We were, and it was kind of weird, we're at a pinball expo, but we went to the video game side. Now, down the street about a block is the pinballs. But it was kind of a bummer because they were going to charge them, even though they paid for the whole package with the tour and the Galloping Ghosts entrance or whatever for the admission. They had to pay $5 extra to play pinball, which is not too much. But the only bummer behind it was that there were a lot of games not working. And they did have the Skit B Predator, which I wanted to see, but you couldn't even play it. It was turned off. So that was kind of a bummer. If you're ever going to have that game on, now is the time. Exactly. And that was kind of a bummer that it wasn't even on. And some of the games were not playing that great. And there weren't that many. There were only 30. So it was very limited. But the video games, if you're a video game fan, that place is awesome. And most of the games worked pretty well. But, wow, it was overwhelming to see so many games in one room. And it just kept going and going and going. like you walk through and then as you're walking through you realize oh this building is a lot wider than i thought and then there's another row of video games and then you walk again there's another row and it's like i think there was like at least 10 to 12 rows of video games with like 50 games each it was it was crazy how many there were um but yeah their video game collection is like that it's notorious for not only is it just enormous but like they have stuff that you won't see anywhere else. And this is being from California where like, you know, we do have some of the super eminent video game collectors, like one of ones will show up at California Extreme, for example. A lot of that stuff has ended up in Chicago because Galloping Ghost, you know, they picked up, you know, Marble Man and what's the other one I was thinking of? Primal Rage 2. And then they post them on the Internet, so, like, you can see they do restores and stuff on these impossibly unusual, never, ever seen anywhere else games. So that's awesome. It's a shame that the pinball side of things, I was like, do they have a King Kong? Do they have, you know, crazy one-of-one pinball machines? But I think that a lot more of those are in private hands. Yes. I believe you're right about that. But it was kind of a bummer, too. I was, like, upset and kind of bummed out that I wouldn't get to try, like, maybe they had, like, some kind of Chicago pizza or something. Well, it ended up that they had pizza from Sam's Club.
    44:14
    Oh, no. Wow. That's a gig kicking the nuts, man. Yeah, it was kind of a bust. It was. No Chicago pizza, like, it's a restaurant experience. It is. You're right. Yeah, absolutely. But anyway, it was still cool to see and actually be there in the largest arcade in the world. And definitely I can see why they have the recognition for that because absolutely, it was gigantic. If I ever get to Chicago, Galloping Ghost is a place where I'm going to wait some time. Yeah, you got to check it out. Absolutely. So anyway, Steve and I, we left. We had like 20 minutes, I believe, and we had to get to our tournament at 4, so we left pretty much at 3.40 from Galloping Ghosts. And I don't know how we did it, but we got there like two minutes before we had to register and sign in. And we got in and we played at a place called Interium which is in the Woodfield Mall which is in Schaumburg So the whole show was in Schaumburg Illinois which is a suburb of Chicago really close to O'Hare, about maybe 20 or 25 minutes away from O'Hare. But anyway, it was a place that had – it was a fun center. So it was a family fun center that also served food and had a bar and everything like that. But they had a great selection of pinball machines with some classics, and then they had all the newer sterns, and it was a large tournament. There was about 100, I think over 100 people played in the tournament, and these were not just, you know, locals. These were people that were top, top players. We're talking Eric Stone was in my group one time. So I felt a little intimidated playing in it. I did not make it into the finals, but my friend Steve did. So we did represent kind of, but I was happy for Steve. He got knocked out in the first round, but it was fun. I mean, I almost had it. I blew it on my last game. I think it was Elton John was the one that I just failed miserably. I don't know why I had the ball drain so much, but that killed me and knocked me out of the contention for getting into the playoffs, I guess you could say. So that was a really great time, and it was crowded. Like I said, when you have 100 people, there were probably about 50 games there, So it was a lot of games that were pretty much side-by-side, and then they also had the CERN game set up for the CERN Circuit Pro that was set up to do that for the next day. So we didn't play those. Those were turned off, but they were available later on during that week. So that was really a great time to play in the tournament. I don't know how many Whoppers. I think I – gosh, I don't know. I think I finished in the top 30 somewhere. I can't remember. It was kind of forgettable because I didn't make it into the finals. But it was a great experience, and it was fun playing with all the people. And it was just a five-round type of thing where it was a match play. So it was just one game per round, because otherwise it would have gone way too late with all the people that were playing. So it was a great experience. I really had a fun time with that, and I'm happy Steve did well, and I'm sure he got some whoppers from that. So that was Tuesday. On Wednesday, we went to American Pinball. Mayo was each a rotisserie chicken of our glowing review of Berrio's Barbecue Challenge. Yes, exactly. And we saw them being made on the line. Pretty much the same thing with the process of the play field and then having it go down the line and add all those other things. So I don't have to go into much detail with that. But the one thing that's really unique about how they do their play fields for their inserts is, I don't know if you noticed or not, but on American Pinball games, the inserts are white.
    48:13
    And they're really, they're one of the things that you don't, you can't tell how they're set in because it's so smooth. And I don't know what it is with American Pinball, but their inserts, you can't even tell that they're inserts. It's like it's super smooth, but they use RGB lighting, and they just use the color representing it under the white inserts. Yeah, like Star Trek Premium. Like Star Trek Premium, exactly. You know what? I can't tell you that I've ever actually noticed that. Now I want to go out and look at Galactic Tank Force. Yeah, look at it, because you run your hand across it, and you can't feel the inserts. Oh, they have really nice play fields. They have really nice play fields. And they had a really nice setup for their rig or whatever. What do you call that again? The rotisserie. They had a nice rotisserie rig where they did a great job of being able to, you know, turn it upside down and have it right side up to be able to fix any parts on there. They did a lot of quality testing. And it was nice because it was a small factory, but we had a small group. It was only like 12 or 14 people in our group, so it wasn't as crowded as the other one that we went on where it was like 30 or 40 people in a group. So it was like half of that, which was nice. And we got to see, of course, we got to see David Fix there, and we also got to see Steve Bowden. He was there, and it was just a great experience. We got to have the tour from, I can't remember his name. It's not Kugler, right? He's not with them no more. No, it was not Josh Kugler. Kugler was in the tour group yelling, you owe me money, bitch. Josh Kugler was not there. Yo, yo, yo, I'd like to get paid. Yeah.
    50:02
    I can't remember his name, but he was a mechanical engineer that was giving us the tour. So he went through it. He did a great job with it, and it was really a fun time to see the process of those being made. And they had some Valhalla's that were being made, but mostly barbecues and, surprise, surprise, lots of Hot Wheels on the line. They were making those, and they're still selling. So they were making a lot of those as well. That's nice to hear. So, yeah, that was great. That was a nice tour. That was on Wednesday. and then Wednesday night we had a chance, oh, sorry, Wednesday afternoon we got to go to the best arcade in Chicago. We got to go to Logan's Arcade. Oh, sweet. Which was awesome.
    50:50
    It was pretty crowded in there because they had one, the way they did it is they had one group, half of the group go to American Pinball and then half of the group go to Logan and then they switched it up. So we went to American Pinball right away. Once again, we drove there because then we had more freedom of leaving if we needed to leave earlier or whatever. Then we drove to Logan's Arcade. That was about an hour drive from American Pinball. And we got in when people were finishing up, and then they were going to leave. And they were, like, serving food, which they served actual Chicago pizza, but it was thin crust. It was good. It was like a New York style. And then that group left and went to the American Pinball Tour. And then all the games were available because the bus didn't come yet. So we got all the games to ourselves pretty much. And there were a lot of modern sterns there. There were some classics. Mostly it was all of different games, you know, from the 90s. There were a whole bunch of games from the 2000s. So it was a good variety of modern games. Maybe a handful of some classics, but mostly modern games, DMD, LCD era. Quick question. Yeah. So were the games on free play or were they all coin drop? That's a great question. The coolest thing is they provide us a $10 coin sleeve to use at Logan's as part of the tour. Oh, sweet. So they gave us quarters to play, which is awesome. And then, of course, once we ran out, kept playing until we had to leave. But the neat thing about it is the ceilings are really cool. They have a really nice decorative ceiling with the tiles, but they're like sculpture tiles that were all the way across. and then they had the front of the signs that you see on the video games plus some of the back glasses that adorn the walls of the arcade all the way down. So it really had a cool atmosphere and great people. The food was great that they provided, and we played there a long time. I'd say we played about three hours there, and then we also had an X-Men, Uncanny X-Men to play. And that was a pro. And we really enjoyed that. That is a, wow. Talk about a great shooting game. It's not easy, though. It's not easy. It drains fast. I thought when I saw the stream, I was like, oh, this is too easy. But when it gets to that danger zone, ooh, man, that makes that game so original and so much fun. And as far as the layout goes, it did not bother me one bit that the flippers were to the right instead of in the center. I didn't even notice it. So for people who might – I don't think I've heard a lot of people that have been complaining about that. But, you know, the rules were okay. They were pretty easy to understand. It wasn't quite ready with the code update until we left. Then, of course, they had a code update. but it was it was great i mean the way you saw it in the video and how we were ranting and raving how cool the layout is oh my gosh jack nailed it i mean it is it is super fun to shoot all the ways you can shoot behind the the sentinel and then that left ramp is tough to hit that is not easy and then you can that satisfying i don't know if it's a corkscrew or figure eight shot oh gosh It's just awesome. So play that a lot because there were no lines. There were plenty of lines over at Expo, but not there. So remember, the showroom did not open until Thursday. So Wednesday we got back, and then they had the bumper blast party. So we went to Antarium that night, and we just got to see everybody, and it was massively crowded. I mean, the line went on from the entrance to the food line, but it was great. They provided food. We had pasta and salad and different breads and everything like that. So it was a really, really good food. It wasn't just finger food. It was actually a full-blown dinner, kind of like what you get at the Friday night dinner that we had. It was good food. And games were not set on free play, but they gave us a card for three hours. So we were able to play for three hours, and then after the card timed out, then we had to, of course, pay with our own money. But that was plenty of time. They had Avatar there. They had also a down-and-canny X-Men Pro. And they had Elton John. They had all the Jersey Jacks there. And then during that night, they had some of the games to play that were on the Stern lineup that were all right there because the Stern Pro Circuit was over, and they just left them on free play so we could play them all night. So that was cool. That was cool. So Ontario is really a hot spot where they have a lot of tournaments in Chicago, and a lot of people were going there until the showroom opened. And then once the showroom opened, which is Thursday, that's when we got to see the showroom. So on Thursday, we went to Jersey Jack tour. So you can see we went on one factory tour after another because I signed up for every single one to see how it was done. And Jersey Jack, I have to say, really did a great job. All of the tours that we did up to that point were all transportation on school buses. So even though I wanted to get away from school, I still was in school.
    56:22
    We all were on school buses, which I thought was pretty funny. But anyway, we finally got back from the field trip, and on Thursday we had coaches that picked us up. So once again, Jersey Jack went in style. They picked us up. They had one bus at a time. We all had different times that we would pick up the bus so it wouldn't be overcrowded. It was so organized, such clockwork. We walked in, and we got immediately greeted by Jack. Jack was there. We had Steve Ritchie there. We had Mark Seiden there. They were all there to greet us, and then we finally went on the tour. And they allowed taking pictures. So we were able to take all the photos in the factory. It didn't bother them in the least bit. So that was cool. So we got to take pictures of the whole process, and I'll post this on Facebook now that I know that I have to sign in as my profile, and then I can load those pictures in there, so I'll have those in there.
    57:29
    But it was really amazing. And, wow, those play fields that came from, I think it's Miracle, right? Miracle Play Fields, that's who they still make them except the. So I guess that, yeah, Miracle does most of their play fields, but the UV, like the collector's edition UV ones, the tri-color, I think they're coming from someone else. Okay. All right. So that makes complete sense because what I saw there, they were making the LEs. I did not see the CEs yet. So there was nothing there in the factory. But, wow, when they pulled out the play field, they are gorgeous. I mean, the artwork is great. I didn't see any evidence of any bad clear coating. I think they fixed that problem. But it was neat to see the play fields all stacked, all, you know, organized, ready to be going down the line. But it was really organized. The thing that was cool about this factor tour over the other ones is that they had sub-assembly stations in line with the main assembly stations. So when they were doing, like, the lower play fields, those were being manufactured in the same spot where they would be placed onto the play field in that same line. So they had, for example, you know, the toys, then those would be added later, and then they were, like, down the lane. but the sub-assembly were like kind of parallel with each other, if that makes sense. Okay? So you had the main play field that was going down there, you know, doing all the soldering and the wiring and all those things. But then as it was going down the line, the sub-assembly was ready to go to put it into the main one. So it was really efficient how they set it up in that factory. I thought that was really cool to see that. And they look great. I mean, all the parts looked high quality and thorough testing again, and lots and lots of avatars being made. There were a couple Elton Johns I saw, but most on the line were avatars.
    59:33
    And gorgeous machine. You can see how much care and the process and everything that goes into those machines. And I'm telling you, you hear that line that says pinball is hard. When you go through a factory tour, you really understand how well you have to have things organized to get something from starting to finishing.
    59:56
    And I'll tell you something. I don't know how I would organize that, but there are a lot of parts that go into a pinball machine. And knowing how to get it timely to get it to the finished product is pretty amazing how they do it. So really great tour. After that, we came back, and the showroom opened. And it was a massive showroom of 100,000 square feet of the vendor space. And then there was an area over off the main hallway which had free play games, which are about 100 in there. So you had all the vendor machines set up, and they were all the major manufacturers there. We had Spooky there. We had American Pinball. We had Chicago Gaming. Stern, of course, had a huge, huge booth with red carpeting all over, which was nice to rest your feet after a while when you're walking on concrete all day.
    60:51
    You really are, right? Yeah. So on Thursday when we went in, the first thing we thought was, okay, we know that Alice's Adventures in Wonderland is going to be the longest line. So we were fortunate to be about 40 people in, and the people we went with are, we went with Jim and Steve and we were kind of hanging out with each other the whole time as when we were at the show. But we were just waiting in line and then when we went in, we immediately went to Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and we were studying the map ahead of time where Dutch Pinball was or DPX. So we immediately knew exactly where we were going and we were first in line to play it. We had nobody ahead of us. so we had no waiting in line and it was great so obviously they set it up for less time to play so they only had two balls but I have to say seeing that in person the artwork didn't bother me as much as I thought when I watched the video you know with the I guess you could say with the risque women on the side it didn't bother me when I saw it in person I guess it just it fit with the theme and it wasn't so explicit, I guess, is the way to say it. I think a lot of the other podcasts, too, they were like, when you actually see it in person and you're not probably interjecting that it's, you know, yeah, it's an older take on Alice in Wonderland, but it's not as salacious as I think everybody was trying to make it out to be. Yeah, it wasn't. It almost always looks better in person. Yes. And it looked good. I mean, some people are ripping on the art. I thought it looked really nice. The one standout thing on it was the side blades lit up. That was cool. So you had on the side of the machine, you could see, like, the lettering, and it had LED lights that were embedded behind the metal. Oh, yeah. Oh, it was so cool. The armor. On the armor. Thank you. On the armor. God, I can't think of the word. The glass rails. Yep, the glass rails. Thank you. Yeah, those looked really cool. Yeah, Stumbler did that. Yes, you're right. Yep. And it's like a brand-new process. It really makes it stand out. And, of course, the topper with the Cheshire Cat was really cool, how the eyes looked mesmerizing. Some had the ones like when you're under hypnosis, you know, those spiral red eyes, and then the other ones kind of like blinked and looked back and forth. It didn't necessarily follow the ball, but maybe with code it will. But right now when I saw it, it was just, you know, just the eyes were kind of going back and forth. Well, the eyes are like screens, right? Yeah, they're screens, exactly. And that's all done by Lior, at least the sculpting is. That's by Lior. Yeah, so it's like an all-star thing, right? You know, it's a Papa Duke-inspired design. It's zombie Yeti-inspired art. It's Stumbler doing mechanics and mods, or factory mods, I guess, and Lior doing all the sculpts. I mean, you know, other than the fact that it was apparently redesigned by some dude named Melvin. Right. And the art was finished by, I don't remember who the artist is, but, yeah, it's still, it's definitely a high-profile project.
    64:17
    Definitely. And it was pretty amazing. When I saw the foam board layout, I am pretty amazed how close they did to the actual production to match the design that Papaduke did with that foam core. It looked pretty close to the same thing.
    64:40
    And it shot better than I thought it would. When I watched the stream, it looked terrible. I mean, it looked like it was clunky and everything. but I actually had fun shooting it. That center ramp was pretty satisfying. The mechs for the magnets didn't seem strong enough, but they were explaining that it's set up so you try to rebound it off of the rubbers to get it in and hitting the captive balls or getting it into the saucer.
    65:08
    Or maybe it was a scoop. I can't remember. There's like some scoops and there's like a captive ball. Like there's a few things to shoot at, unlike the power field, where it's basically just you're trying to get it into the center. Right. You have to actually ricochet it a certain direction to get those targets, which I thought was pretty cool. Now, I'm sure they could, with code, increase the magnet power or whatever. But I thought it was pretty fun. And it takes a lot of work to get up there, too. It's not like you can just shoot one shot and then it goes up there. There's a way you've got to qualify a mode. and the callouts, it's so funny because when you listen to callouts on a video presentation, they get annoying, but when you play it in person, it's not as bad. Now, I'm not saying the callouts are top-notch, not at all, but it didn't bother me when I played it.
    66:00
    The sculpts were gorgeous. I mean, high detail. they were definitely painted in beautiful colors that matched with the whole theme I thought the play feel was great quality and very colorful and had the whimsical land of Alice in Wonderland basically and it was beautiful I mean as far as seeing it in person it was a gorgeous game and this really is a machine that like it's number one mission is to be beautiful Right, exactly, and whimsical. The best way I can describe it is it's whimsical, and that's why I had vibes of playing Circus Volterra. It had that same feel to it. And as you know, that's my favorite game, so I couldn't really hate this game. I didn't know Volterra was your favorite game. Yeah, Circus Volterra is my favorite game. I actually did know that. Yep, yep, it's my favorite game. I really enjoy that one. But it had the feel of Circus Volterra. Now, granted, it didn't have the ringmaster and the cool mechs, but it shot like those weird ramps and, you know, the different orbits and stuff like that. I did get to use the outlane spinners. I wish I knew how to qualify those, but, you know, you don't have much time with two balls. So I just kind of played it a little bit, and then I was like, oh, well, oh, well, I drained it. It's over. I kind of cut in on subsequent days when the lines were shorter to play more, but I didn't get a lot of time on it as I wanted to. so I'm hoping once Reno gets one in the future at the Nugget we'll be able to play it and I'll be able to learn the rules more but the rules seemed nice the animations were great so seeing it in person I was not disappointed at all I thought it was a cool game so that was the first thing we did let me ask you real quick it's a pretty game like Dan hits it on the head they made the game to be pretty it's got the sculpts they got the watch sculpt which looks real nice They put a video screen in it because that took a lot of fucking brain power. Yeah. Oh, put a video screen in. Ooh. Aren't you guys edgy? Anyway, sorry. What are you even talking about? The watch. It's a video screen in the watch. The pretty pretty watch. Every phone machine now uses a bunch of video screens. I know. And it's fucking literally phoning it in because I'm too lazy and cheap to actually come up with a good idea. Now, okay. So, I'm going to just roast another podcast for this. Go ahead. Okay. Because, like, the toys, the toys.
    68:38
    It doesn't look like at the end of the day there's really a lot in this game. No. You're right. There's not many toys. The only thing that's getting you is the cut. There's a lot of pretty, but at the end of the day, so when people pay how much for this game?
    68:53
    It's like $12. Okay. Okay, so it's about the same as a Stanoe or a Jersey Jack L.E. And they're making $500 a month, right? No, they're making $500. It's a collector's piece. No, I know it is, but at the end of the day, there's a lot of window dressing, but is there any, you know, what's in the game that you're going to go, damn, that's cool? Like the Ringmaster. You and I talk about this a lot, Mark, off air, and we both love Circus Voltaire. because it's got a cool fucking toy. It's got cool shit in it, and it's whimsical and bright and pretty, but it's fun to shoot, and there's actually something cool in the game. Yeah, there's a wow factor with Circus Voltaire, you're right. The Ringmaster's dope. No, it isn't. The Ringmaster is super cool. That is a killer mech with a ton of personality. It is. And so many functionality for that mech, right? I mean, it raises stuff. You got the magnet, you got the bash target. Yeah. It goes down, you have the little arena that it hits into, and then it finally will go all the way up and it's a scoop that you can shoot under. You know, when people were saying, oh, wow, X-Men, that Sentinel looks like it's going to be the new Ringmaster, I was like, no, it's not. No. Like, it'll be like maybe a tenth of what the Ringmaster does. Right. So to answer your question, Spence, there were not many mechs that made it, wow, you're right. I mean, it was just pretty is the way I could say it. Would I play it if I saw it on location? Absolutely. I mean, it's simple rules, which I like, and it's not so complicated.
    70:32
    It shot great. I thought the flippers felt good. But, yeah, as far as max go, no, there's nothing really except the magna flippers. That's about it. And that was already done on Twilight Zone anyway. Exactly. So that's why I don't have anything new. There's nothing inside that game that makes me go, that's really cool. No. The only thing new on there that is original out of any other game I saw was the side rails. Seeing the light lit up side rails. That's about it. Like both you and Dan said, and I've said it before, you can never really, I mean, pictures and videos just never do a game justice. So I look forward to seeing especially that in person because it sounds really impressive. And, again, you look at it and go, it's a very pretty game. But what's really inside? The two questions I have and I'm going to have for a bunch of the games you're going to talk about tonight from the newer people trying to enter the arena is, what is this doing to build and promote and further grow pinball, one? And, two, what's in the game? For what you're paying, what are you really getting? and are you getting a game where it's going to have the last of the building and some of these collections because, damn, there's a lot in this and it's really fun? Or just, well, there's not a lot in it, but it's still really fun? Or, well, it's really pretty?
    71:54
    You know, my hot take on why this game is successful is, you know, they were smart enough to limit the quantity, so it isn't like they're trying to make 5,000 of them. Right. and I kind of touched on it earlier, is that it's not, it's a J-pop game, but it's not a J-pop game, right?
    72:19
    It's a zombie yeti, but not. But at the end of the day, it's a game that you were never supposed to get. Right, okay. If there's a thing about modern pinball, and even old school pinball, but especially modern pinball, it's that people have a real hard on forgetting things that either you couldn't get, and I think that we'll touch on that a little bit when we talk about Metallica, especially things that they were canceled and then all of a sudden, you know, somebody remade it, right? You know, it goes back to Big Bang. You know, it goes into the whole remake phenomenon and now the remastering phenomenon. pinball absolutely loves I mean and they will jump on it every single time if you get a second chance at something that you could have got the first time you know the FOMO is strong man people jump on it do I think if this was a Zidware they would have sold 500 at whatever J-Pop was finding the charge probably not but as a DPX and with the back story oh absolutely They sold them, you know, before the thing even hit the floor. At least it turns out that it's a reasonably good quality game and that the ultimate vision, whether you love J-Pop, whether you hate J-Pop, whether you like Zombie Eddie, whether you hate him, whether you think their work has been perverted or whether you think their work is being salvaged in this case, I just think that is the opiate of the pinball masses. Yeah. Beautiful take, Dan. Well said. Yeah, man. Love it, love it, love it. You know, what's funny is when you first said, I have a thought, I know that's a dangerous thing. You're like, oh, son of a. I have hit the brakes from sliding the bus across the lane to traffic. I can do fucking shit. No. He said, well, it's like a J-pop game, but it's not. And it's like a J-pop, but it's not. So basically it's the fucking hamburger helper or the Velveeta of pinball. Well, no, because I mean.
    74:30
    You know, J-Pop did a markup, did a markup, and Zombie Yeti did, it was like black and white line art, right? Yeah, underneath line art, yeah. And then that shit fell apart, right? You know, J-Pop, you know, his inequities are well documented, you know. It drug Zombie Yeti down with him, you know, he did a bunch of work, never got paid. You know, a guy basically, my understanding is he bought this out of a storage unit, you know, he ended up with the foam core. He got some rights from the Turner pinball guy and said, you know, and went to, went to DPX and they're like, man, this is a cursed project. Let's build it. Yeah. You know, and, and plenty of pinball people, you know, some people have been outraged. Like, Hey, you know, people lost money. This project should have, you know, died and stayed dead. But there's just something about pinball where it's all like, there's something that I wasn't supposed to get and now I can get it. I freaking want it.
    75:28
    Right. Well, they made a fantasy into a reality, right? I mean, you see this foam core, and then all of a sudden you have a machine you can play. That's pretty cool. Yeah. I mean, that is cool. That is unique. And we never thought I was going to see the light of day when Deep Root went under. So, yeah, I mean. We didn't think you'd be seen when Zidwar went under. Then we didn't think you'd be seen when Deep Root went under. Right. But these days, it can happen. Right, exactly. Now let's see if they get them out there. Right, let's see if they get them out there. In 11 years. They're supposed to get them out there in January. January 2025 is when they said that they're going to start shipping, and if they don't, then they could get a refund. But we'll see what happens. But I can tell you this, that the quality is good, the build quality. It is gorgeous. and this looks promising because this is a great precursor to Back to the Future when they come out with that. And I can tell you right now, that is what they're coming out with next. I actually ran into somebody that told me they actually saw it, but they obviously couldn't say more than that. But they're definitely making it, and it looks promising. If they can really have some cool Macs with the DeLorean and really make it with a flux capacitor or whatever, this could be a really good company creating these unique games. So we'll see what happens. See, I worry about it coming from the bench. I really, really wish it would have been a JJP.
    77:01
    Yeah, JJP for sure. I totally agree with you on that. JJP, I mean, Stern would have been affordable and competent, but JJP I think would have really made it something special. So I wanted to go with the JJP and Steve Rispy. done some good shit. You know, the Bowsers get the game when they're running. Yeah, running, they're not, yeah. If you get one within 10 years, we'll see how Alice turns out, but this will be more of their mainline, you know, hopefully unlimited, but I mean, shoot, man, I don't want to, you know, I love Back to the Future, but I don't want to spend $15,000 on it. And you know that's what it's going to cost. You know I will. So, anyway. Probably $12,000, $13,000, $15,000, whatever. Like, let's see what they bring us. But, we'll see what they do. But Alice sounds like it was actually better than expected. It was better than expected from what they showed in their trailer. Yeah, because the trailer was bad. And their gameplay was awful. There was a lot of excitement for it right up until people saw the new Metallica game. And the lines were long. I mean, people were wanting to play that like crazy. So, anyway, that was Alice in Wonderland. We already know about Avatar, but I wanted to see the topper.
    78:13
    Holy crap. Yeah. Did they do a good job on the topper? I'm telling you, that was amazing with the Pepper Ghost way, and it made the one that is from Stern look so cheap from Mandalorian. This was done correctly. It didn't just show a score. It showed what happened in the game. It looked just like you were in the spaceship, and like when you got a bonus, it would pop out with a square, and then it would go back to small, you know, on the whole entire control panel on the top. Oh, my gosh.
    78:50
    Incredible. I mean, if you wanted to have a topper and be willing to get the CE and have a little more extra money than get an LE, the topper is totally worth it. Blew me out of the world. I mean, it blew my mind. It was really cool to see that. And they told me that the reason why it looks so good is they use teleprompter glass to be able to make it look dark and clear. So that's what they used for their glass, which was really cool when I talked to Mark Seiden. He actually explained that to me when we were there. So this was his game, right? He designed it. Yeah, Mark Seiden is the one that designed it. He was the one that did Metroid, which was in the homebrew section two years ago, actually. Commercial design. Yep, first commercial design. And he was looking a little nervous because, you know, everybody's playing it and he's trying to get, you know, seeing what people think for their feedback. Now, they did have a CE, but one thing that Mark did give me information about is that that was not the CE that was intended that's going to go out to customers. It was something that had to be put together quickly, and it wasn't the actual play field that is from the other manufacturer. So it wasn't as vibrant, and it wasn't nearly as impressive as what the video portrayed in their featurette. so it was kind of disappointing. It was kind of disappointing, to be honest with you. I didn't really see it. Even though they had the flippers glow and they had a light going down the whole time, you really didn't get the effect of the shadow going across the play field because they had overhead UV lights that were on the whole time, so you could see it glowing, so you really didn't get that effect. So this will be really cool when the CE comes out and it actually is much more vibrant ink and more fluorescent, I guess is a word you would call. One of my observations at Pentagogo, too, was I didn't really get a feel for what the lighting effects were supposed to be, and I'm sure a lot of that was just the fact that I was in a show, so there was light everywhere. But, yeah, I didn't ever get to see, like, the eclipse or the vaunted UV glow. Right. Yeah, so it wasn't that impressive, but the topper was, and that makes it worth to get to see for sure. It was super cool how they had it go right with the things, and then what's cool is on the second machine that people weren't playing, he was putting on the new code, and the new code had the callouts that went with the movie instead of with no dialogue or sound effects, So now they have it synced properly because I know that was what people were talking about. So that looks promising, too, that they already had updated code already for Avatar. But I've played it before. It's shot great. I feel it's too easy for me.
    81:49
    In fact, I was playing one in line at just an alley, and I had like 200, 300 million on my first ball, and I felt guilty having people wait behind me that I just drained my last two balls. so they can play. So I just said, here you go. I'm wondering how the code will advance on that, because we had some good games of it at Pinnagogo, but it did really feel like I'm just kind of tooling around, I'm just kind of doing my thing. Oh, I'm in this, you know, break-a-leg multiball or whatever it's called, and then just all of a sudden the game was just barfing out points. Yeah, yeah, exactly. You hit that at Clipshot. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, just all of a sudden you went from like 100 million to like a billion, and you're just like, oh, my God, this thing is going absolutely nuts. Right. It's satisfying. Yeah. And I'm sure once you know what you're doing, it will be behavior that you can replicate. I felt like the shot map on it was a little busy.
    82:50
    Yeah. There's a lot going on, especially from that upper left flipper. Right. There's just shots that I didn't feel like you could hit. Like you had to kind of get lucky.
    83:03
    Yep, exactly. And I have to say that it's a great flowing game for Jersey Jack. Oh, yeah. It definitely flows so good. It plays well. It just, I think, you can tell that it's a first-time designer who's really trying. Like, I think it would have been a little bit less would have been more. Yeah, you have a good point. Like there was like maybe one shot too many. And if you just, you know, simplified it up, opened it up a little bit, it would have been easy. But it had great combo. Like you get some really good combo shots and, you know, you get that lower play field thing with the space crab, the space submarine crab thing. Yeah. I don't know. My Avatar lore was good.
    83:48
    The worst thing is I just can't tell you what any of the multi balls or anything are because they're all like Hawaiian sounding words. Yeah, I know. Comma to a, I know I want to lay a bumpy ball. And I'm just like, oh, shit. I don't know what I did, but I did something cool. I can't pronounce it. Just let the call outs do the work and not have to worry about pronouncing it. But then I'll actually see how great I am. Yeah, there you go.
    84:14
    Well, I enjoyed it. That was fun. And then I was like, okay, that was kind of divide and conquer. We just went on our own. and I went to go and play.
    84:24
    Actually, before I go on to the homebrew section, which is the next place I went to, which was where I spent most of my time during the show, I had an opportunity. I had really nothing going on one day in class, and I was thinking, okay, how can we teach kids how to do a summary? So I was like, well, Avatar just came out, so I showed them the featurette video, and I had kids required to take notes. These are fourth graders. I could not believe how well detailed the notes were and how they had complete sentences and everything that they normally wouldn't on like an educational video on some other topic. And then what was really cool is they took that information and then they had to summarize it with the best features of Avatar, explaining the pinball machine, almost telling them like it was an elevator speech. Like if you're an elevator and you told people about Avatar, what would you say? And it was so cool to see these fourth graders coming up with these summaries that I was so excited about it that I sent it to Jersey Jack. I sent it to Mark Seiden, actually. And it was funny because when I saw Jersey Jack, when I saw Jack, he said, oh, yeah, I saw those when you sent those in the email, and I shared them with everybody at Jersey Jack with all the people because it was so cool to see that. So that was really neat that we got recognition for that. Did you let the students know? I did let the students know. Now, they were supposed to give me some kind of thing for the students, but they did not follow through. They were real busy, I can understand, with the show and all that stuff. With the show, yeah. But maybe they'll send me something later if I hound them again. Well, hopefully somebody is listening to the show and going, all Spencer does is say the F word.
    86:08
    Well, it was great to be acknowledged for that, and it was cool. and I did tell the kids when I got back, so that was cool. So the homebrew section, okay. There's a lot I guess I'm not going to go through. All right, the homebrew section was the highlight of the show for me. There were some killer games there. Incredible mechanics, wow factor, just great stuff. So I'll highlight the ones that I loved the most. The first one I saw was Led Zeppelin. and Led Zeppelin, it was much more fun to play than the Stern version, okay? It had a staircase that was a mech. So when you hit it into the stair, it would go up one stair going up one level and lock the ball in there. So you'd have like five balls sitting on the stairs and then the stair would basically like a conveyor belt, it would rotate and move the balls up onto a top play field where you'd have to hit upper targets similar to like what you did in Swords of Fury. Is that what it's called? Yeah, Swords of Fury, right, where you have to hit the top targets? Yeah, the drop targets. Okay, man. I got the – okay, all right. Yeah, so it was like that. And then if you hit them all down, you get like a super jackpot. But it was awesome. They had clips from Zeppelin and the live concerts. It felt like a full production machine. There was no artwork on it, so it was just a whitewood. But, wow, was it fun. I mean, they had the inserts in there of all the different songs. And the staircase mech was like I was so addicted because I just had to go back and shoot and try to get that multi-ball started. And I did great on the first four, and then that fifth one, I could not get that ball to lock the hardest I tried until eventually, after a couple of games, because I kept looking behind me like, okay, is there somebody behind me waiting? It's like, oh, nobody's there. okay, I got to get all these five balls to go. So that was really cool. There was another game. There was, of course, they had the Sonic Spinball Pinball again, which was great. And it played awesome as usual. I played one game on that. That was fun. They had a Pokemon that had a really nice layout and really good code as well. But then there was one that was adjacent to where Zeppelin was, and it was called, it was Borderlands. So it was based off the, I believe that's a video game. Is that correct? Borderlands video game? It was, I think it was Borderlands 2. Borderlands 2, thank you. And holy cow, this blew me away with the ingenuity on it, okay? It was very innovative. So I was playing it and it was a Whitewood and I was shooting it. And then all of a sudden I started a mode, not realizing what was happening, and all of a sudden the play field lowered hydraulically.
    89:12
    So it was like, it was called drunken ball or something like that, or drunken multiple, I can't remember what it was. But it lowered down. So it looked like it was further when you're looking through the glass, and it had a really cool effect on it. But then here was the kicker.
    89:29
    Then it rotated. So it was like almost like a labyrinth table, like the ones where you have to move the little – With the ball and the dials? The ball in the maze, right? And then you don't want to get in the holes? Well, this one, you actually held a controller, and when you moved it, it moved in the direction that you leaned that controller to match with the play field, so you had to make shots rolling the ball around without draining it. That was so cool. I was like wow this is really neat and the shots were great there was a couple of shots that were really hard played awesome just a really good one they had three games that were the same size as the pinball 2000 and it had frozen and then had another like a haunted theme like on a cruise ship but the way they used the display with the 3D pepper ghost way of doing it again is it was really good resolution So it was super clear It was like it was there Even though it was a screen it really fit well And that was a lot of fun too So you had three games like that I can't remember all the designers because I was just like constantly playing all the different games. They had a huge game, and I have it on my pictures, but it was like the size of Hercules. It was not playable, unfortunately, but it had a lot more shots than Hercules, and it looked like a lot more fun to play, which basically had ramps. It had scoops. It had a whole bunch of stuff that used balls the size of cue balls, just like Hercules. So I'm excited to see how that develops once they get it done, but it was not playable, unfortunately.
    91:23
    Saw was amazing. They had a Saw homebrew, and then right next to it, they had Greatest Showman. So you had a nice horror theme, and then you had a nice family theme. Both used the Whirlwind layout. Both were completely different games, and both were completely different designers. But it was really great to see them side by side at the booth to play each one. Code was solid. Saw, holy cow. If they sold that, people would buy it. totally complete, shot great. The assets that they used, the code, it was just super fun to shoot. And like I said, it was a production game, so that was cool. Well, I owned a Whirlwind for several years, and I want to get another one. And that came on its own. I mean, it's an amazingly good shooting game. That's a great layout, right? It really is. Yeah. So they did a great job on that. and there are a whole bunch of other ones I'm sure other podcasts talk about, but those are kind of the highlights of it. There was one where you had to, like, wrap your arms around it. It looked like a barrel, and it was like a small playfield pinball. And then there was this crazy one that was right next to it that was Harry Potter themed, and it had the castle molded. It had all of the Quidditch arena. Oh, my gosh. It was crazy to see that. It was not working well with the code yet. They've still got a ways to go. But when I happened to be there, I did get to play it and shoot it a little bit. And it shot pretty well. There was a lot of different shots, a lot of upper play fields. I mean, it's crazy. Very complicated. It probably never could be produced in manufacturing because it's just too complicated. But for a homebrew, wow, did he nail the theme. I mean, it had artwork on it and the whole bit. It was really cool. I've seen the pictures of it. It looks like a model. Yeah, it is. It looks like a model. Absolutely. So how does it fit down in the cabinet? Like, does it sit really low? It sits low in the cabinet. And the cabinet is a lot taller. It's a lot deeper than a normal cabinet. Definitely more proprietary. That whole castle diorama thing looks huge. I mean, it looks really nice. It kind of reminds me of Escape from the Lost World, where it doesn't feel like you're playing a pinball machine as much as you're playing like a playset.
    93:52
    Correct. I think that that would work for Harry Potter if you're like, you know, hitting the ball in and out of the doors of the castle and, you know, hitting it through the Quidditch rings if it has a way to launch. I mean, that would be just incredible. But, yeah, probably not producible, even by Jersey Jack. Yeah, it's really complicated, but I can't wait to see it when it's all done. I mean, it's definitely worth a trip over there to see how they'll develop it, but I'll definitely keep tabs on them to see how further they get in that. They had a Van Halen pinball machine, which was cool. Oh, no shit? Yeah. Definitely Van Halen? They had a Van Halen pinball machine, but it was more old school type, you know, classic game, but it was cool. They had the songs on there, and the code was a little more in depth than what you would see in a normal game, so that was cool. They had, what else did they have? They had Dukes of Hazzard, and that was based off of the Paragon layout. Very cool. And once again, these games do not look like in process. They look like they're finished, ready to go, right off the line. Just awesome. I mean, the homebrew section, I couldn't get out of there. I was just constantly playing.
    95:07
    There was another section that was not in the homebrew section, but it was over in the electric playground area. And they had two games there. They had Friday the 13th, and then they had the most incredible, unique layout I've ever seen, a Tony Hawk-themed demolition. Everybody was talking about that. You had mentioned that before, but that and then the greatest show seemed to be the real standout. Greatest showman. Seemed to be the two real standouts. Gorgeous art. Yeah, people really, really have been speaking highly of Tony Hawk. Oh, Tony Hawk. It was not easy to shoot, but the way that they had the ball, it fit perfectly with the theme. I mean, it had the half-pipe. It had the corkscrew. It had the real steep shot that you have to get up on the top. They had a side shot that had a little mini flipper that you had to hit to get going around a habit trail, and then it went down this really steep ramp to get to your flipper. I mean, crazy geometry on it. And it shot well. I mean, it was hard. I didn't have a game lasting more than three minutes, but it was really cool how they did it. And, of course, they had the music there, and they had the different characters of the different skateboarders, as well as Tony Hawk. But it was, wow, it was cool. I mean, it's hard to explain, But if you see pictures and videos on YouTube, you can see what it looks like. But just imagine how a skateboard does different tricks. That's what the ball did. Right. And I hear that the whole gimmick is that it's objective-based, like the games. Yes. So you're supposed to collect all the letters and skate, and you're supposed to find the hidden tapes, and you're supposed to do certain tricks over certain parts of the game, you know, like you're launching over ramps or grinding certain rails. Like, it sounds like it's a really genius integration of the concept of the video game and the actual physical world of pinball. Right. That would be a game that I think that we've mentioned a few times that it's like everybody loves radical. Right. I mean, yes, you know, the modern-day equivalent of, like, a radical would be, you know, why doesn't somebody make Tony Hawk? Right. Like, how do you do that? Right. Well, and I mean, because you go back 20 years in the 90s, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater was huge. I mean, Tony Hawk basically says, hey, I was a skateboarder. The game made me a legend. Right. That's pretty true. Because, yeah, it would sell to the PlayStation generation. It would sell to the 90s, you know, the 90s kids who are in their late 40s and their early 50s now. And we totally remember the first time we played Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 1, Tony Hawk's Pro Skater 2, which are two games that, by the way, I absolutely suck at, but I, you know, really enjoy fooling around with, especially if you got, you know, the real tunes and you really hit that aesthetic of... Get the whole licensing, right? Yeah, you know, if you actually hit that skateboard or that 90s skateboard company aesthetic, you know, there are a lot of guys who, you know, for them, that was peak, the peak of cool. Right.
    98:40
    Right. Well, I have to say that even my fourth graders knew who Tony Hawk was when I showed them a picture of that pinball machine. They were like, oh, Tony Hawk, cool. So they even know. So we're talking like four generations know this stuff. Because, yeah, you know, before, like, if you were a skater kid in the 80s, you knew who Tony Hawk was. Yeah. But, like, after Tony Hawk's pro skater, everyone knew who Tony Hawk was. Yep. Right. Yeah, he's always with skateboarding, so. Oh, yeah, for sure. I mean, he's, yeah, exactly. He's it.
    99:16
    He's well known. So that was really awesome. so those were the homebrews that I can remember off the top of my head I'm sure there were other ones I played but the ones that stood out are the ones that I described and I loved it because I had so much fun there was one other one that was cool it was a Christmas themed one it was super easy to understand and I had to play it to get to the wizard mode I had to get through all the 12 days of Christmas and it went all the way until you got to the star, and then you got to the wizard mode. And it was simple. I mean, there were different shots you had to make and stuff to light all the numbers on the tree. But it was cute. It was cool. It was neat to play, and I did get to the end, and I actually got my initials on a homebrew. That was pretty cool. That's pretty cool. So, yeah, that was neat. I'm 100% sure that if I was at the show, the homebrew section is where I'd spend 90% of my time.
    100:13
    Oh, for sure. You would try all the new stuff, and then you'd be like, okay, let's try these games that people are inventing and just, you know, just appreciate the ingenuity and the, you know, just the drive that it had to take to tackle that kind of a project and, you know, make it work. And who knows, you know, some of these homebrew games, yesterday's homebrew games are today's production. Right, or people get hired from the homebrew. crowd and they're a designer. Yeah, how many guys have we got now that started out making a homebrew? Several. Denise, Elwin. Elwin, yeah. Danger?
    100:57
    No, did Jack Danger really do a homebrew, though? I think he did. He just podcasted. No, he did a homebrew, but it never would be in production. I don't think he made one. I think he just was designing one on his stream. Okay, okay. Okay. You got to point that out. I think he was a gangster. I mean, I'm not trying to take nothing away from him. Yeah, yeah. He got his in by being, you know, Mr. Pinball. Mr. Pinball streamer. Right. True. But, again, he did start working on homebrew stuff, and, you know. Yeah, he did. Here we are. And Mark Seiden, too. Mark Seiden, yeah. He's another one that was a homebrewer. So it's really cool to see these new designers, but, wow. The creativity there and the complexities of how they really fit well with the theme, pretty awesome. Like I said, that Zeppelin game, man, if I saw it on location, I'd play it immediately. It was one of those where it was satisfying, it was easy to understand, it shot great, and it had a cool mech with a wow factor. It was just a whole package. It was great. That was my favorite. It really sounds like it makes the game. Yeah, yeah. The story was so cool. I should put some video of that. That looks really cool. I do have a little bit. I just don't have it where I'd lock in the ball. No, that's okay. I was spending too much time playing instead of taking video of it. You know, the point that we've all kind of made, you know, in talking about it, discussing this, not just here, but, you know, getting together at Golden State and other podcasts we've done is the great thing about the homebrew community is there are no rules. Right. You pick your team you want, you do what you want, and you put it out there. Because there's no expectation and there's no budget. You know what I mean?
    102:43
    It's like, well, it's nine years. You have to look at your imagination and how far you can take it. Exactly, because it's not like, like, why should I have this done in 11 months? Because we've got to go to production. There's no production. So if it takes you six years and costs you $20,000, who cares? Yeah.
    102:59
    There's no, yeah, I mean, you're not under the gun because you've got to pay the rent on this one. You know what I mean? Or keep the lights on. I'm just doing this on my spare time as a hobby. So, which is really, you know, that freedom to create artistically has got to be really liberating for these guys. Absolutely. And there's no restrictions. There's no restrictions, which leads to really cool things and innovation and new games. And, you know, even simplistically, you look at Total Nuclear Annihilation. You know, it's a single-level playbook. It's got the Tennessee lock. It's got, you know, it's got in the lights and the sound and the total package it makes. And you're like, I love that game, you know. Yeah. But it's nice to see. It's really nice to see. It's nice to see Homebrew really getting its own little spotlight. They had a huge section. They had at least 40 Homebrew games. That's awesome. It was awesome. That's worth a show. I'm telling you right now, you won't get to play those anywhere else in the world. Now, there was no 8-Ball Beyond. I was bummed with that, but I knew that he wasn't bringing it there. That is an amazing game. Oh, God, I love that game. That game is so good.
    104:11
    But anyway, it was so worth it to go to the homebrew section. So after that, we had another thing going on in the evening. There was always something going on in the evening with a social event. I got to go to the mixer. Yes, you did. Finally. I went to the mixer and I did represent The Spinner is Lit and I have to tell you all the people I met they all heard of the show and they listened to it so we got other podcasts Did any of them watch you or try to throw you out of the building? No in fact they said they like listening to my voice because it puts them to sleep because it's so soothing so I thought that was pretty funny What the fuck is wrong with Spencer?
    104:54
    No they like it they said they really enjoy it So that was cool. I got to see a lot of personalities that we hear all the time. I got to see Don. He recognized me right away. Nice. Of course, he didn't get to meet me in person, but then I was like, hey, I'm with the Spinners. He's like, oh, yeah, how are you doing? So that was cool. I got to meet Cale and Rachel Best from Electric Bat. They were there. Oh, nice. I got to meet, of course, Zach Money. He was there and his wife, Nicole. It was really awesome to get to see all the people I listened to. and I got to meet, finally, I got a name or a face associated with Craft Brew Sally and Fonghorn Leghorn from Four Mans. I always wanted to see who they were. And they didn't look at all what I was imagining when I heard them on the radio. It's like DJs when you're talking about it. On the podcast, I mean. Like a junk drawer? Yeah. They broadcast on Four Mans, but they're not the Poor Mans. Right. No, they're not the Poor Mans. They broadcast on the poor man's. Even the poor man's I don't think are the poor man's anymore. Don't they do it under a different name?
    105:58
    I don't know. They're the tribe or the poor man's. I don't know. They got something going on there. They're crazy. Yeah. I'm so happy you got to go and represent us. I did. Trust me. I had it on my badge. Unfortunately, I didn't get tickets soon enough for the people who are the producers, but I just said, hey, you know, I came in as a spectator, I was a spectator, but I actually am a producer along with my buddies for the Spinner's Lit. And they go, oh, yeah, I've heard of that. And the people that didn't, I had one I ran to somebody from Germany. He said, oh, I listen to Spinner's Lit. So really cool. You guys are terrible. Yeah, yeah.
    106:37
    No, it's that we're entertaining. You know what? We don't charge anything. There's no paywall. No. We're just throwing out just some content. But like I said, come hang out.
    106:51
    Everyone who I've ever talked to actually is pretty complimentary. But then again, I'm a big man, so I don't think of their franchise.
    107:00
    That was great. They had games on free play, so we got to play pinball that night. But it was pretty much socializing. Great food. They had great pizza and really good sliders. So they treated us well, and food was included with the admission. And that was thanks to the guy who is in charge of kinetic. I'm sorry, kineticist. Yeah, yeah.
    107:26
    Colin Alshimer. He put it on, and it was a great event, and that was fun. And then the night was over, and Friday. We get to Friday now. And like I said, there's so much going on, and I'm trying to keep it under two, but I don't think I'm going to make it. I think I failed. But anyway, Friday we went on a stern tour in the morning. Friday was a stern tour. It's going to have to be a part two. Yeah, the big kahuna, the big thing I was looking forward to was the CERN tour, and that was a true factory. Bustling, tons of people, games going down the line. I mean, they really can crank them out. And it was awesome. Of course, the ones that we saw were X-Men, Kenny X-Men. They were all on the line. They were starting the LEs pretty soon, but they were all the pros that were on the line that I was watching. and amazing operation. Just seeing how it just goes right down the line from start to finish, and I think it takes them, I forgot how many hours, I can't remember what he said, but it was a pretty short amount of time to get a game done. I think it was like, when they got it down the line, I think it was at least like an hour from start to finish, roughly for one game.
    108:46
    Of course, testing that added more time to it. But, wow, just the hustle and bustle and the sound of the drills going and, you know, the power screwdriver just, you know, just going all the way down the line and seeing that process. Wow, how they can produce so many games in such a short amount of time was pretty cool. So don't call me. I don't remember the exact amount. It was fast. I mean, they were like getting things done. You would definitely hope that if any company has this to a science, it's Stern. It's Stern, for sure. Like, you know, everything's going to be, you know, very, very much production line, very, very much ready to go. Yeah. You know, they're slapping these things together and making the most. No pictures were allowed, of course. Before the tour, they have this ginormous steel ball, steel pinball, that's right outside their offices, I guess, or their factory. And it shows CERN logo. It looks like a really true finished factory. The new facility is gorgeous. It really did a good job. When you walk into the main entrance, it has a huge area where it's open office, definitely more modern, not your typical cubicles. And it had all the play fields that were lined up on the wall that had lighting going all the way across, which is really cool. I'm starting to feel that CERN will be providing public tours as an attraction because the way it was set up, even though it was set up for Expo, I have a feeling that in the future it's going to be like daily tours. It's going to be a destination for people coming to Chicago. I mean, that just makes sense because, I mean, it's widely known that pinball, for the most part, with some exceptions, has always, always been manufactured in the Chicagoland area. It's just, you know, that's as American as, you know, apple pie and baseball and Chevrolet. Cool. Yeah, it definitely had that feeling because the main area when you walk in, you could see turnstiles being put up like an actual attraction. I could really see it happening. I'm sure the workers are going to love it. But it was cool to see that whole process in such a short amount of time, how they put it together. And then we got to see right at the end, before we got our merch, if we decided to get it, we saw the Metallicus. we saw the LE, the new Metallica, the Metallica Remastered. We saw the LE and we saw the premium. We did not get to play it, but we got to look at it, which is cool, right at the end of the tour. So that was a great tour. We were done. We were on school buses again. We came back to the convention center. And then pretty much I just spent my whole time on the show floor again checking out different things. and the place that I wanted to check out that Spencer absolutely loves is Ninja Eclipse from Turnip and Ball.
    111:57
    All right, we're ready. They sold out, by the way. So let me tell you something. I was pleasantly surprised how fun the game shot, how good the code was, and how the build quality was compared to what we had when we were ripping on it before. I even talked to Turner. I talked to Chris. And he was the most polite. He was a polite guy. I mean, he was so nice and respectful and listening to feedback and a genuine guy. He was really nice. I mean, I couldn't believe how polite he was. He showed me the underside of the play field of Ninja Eclipse, and it was really interesting how he had it. I have a picture of it. but it was like all different boards with the, it was like the LEDs were embedded into the board instead of separate. And all of the, uh, the max and the, um, the solenoids and all of the coils and everything were all plugged in via, um, Molex connections instead of soldering. There was no soldering at all. Really clever and very streamlined, hardly any wire. So he must have like, uh, Like the CGC remakes.
    113:16
    Yes. That's exactly how they work. Yep. And I was blown away by how very little wire they use. So they either have it within the circuit board that is going through it or whatever. But anyway, that was really cool. The other thing that was really neat is he demonstrated how the glass came off. And this blew away Roberts from Deep Root, like just blew it out of the water. It was so simple and so cool. He had a simple truck latch in the middle, and you just release it. You lift it up. It didn't have any hydraulics or anything fancy like that. You could just lift the glass up, hold it up, and you could get a ball if it was stuck. But then he showed me there's a little notch in the back of the, right on the top of the pinball machine when you get towards the back box, right where the rails are. And you pull it out of the notch, and you lift the glass off. with the frame around the glass that's already there, so you don't have to slide the glass out, and it had lights that were embedded into it, so once you connected it, it closed the circuit, and the lights worked.
    114:26
    It was really cool. Pretty freaking brilliant. It was brilliant. It actually was way better than what Robert was demonstrating and what he developed, and he made it real simple, And I love it because you can take the glass off or you can lift it up. So it worked out really well. And as far as the rules go, I kept playing that game over and over. It shot really well. Was it really difficult to play? No. Was it really easy? In a way it was, but it wasn't to the point where I was bored that it shot too easy. It actually had tough bows that you had to beat. The artwork was gorgeous. The cabinet was solid. It was definitely not the cheap version of the shallow cabinet that looked like you'd buy it, you know, like a Zizzleware. What is that called? Zizzle? Zizzle, yeah. Zizzles were like toys. Yeah, they were like toys. Like. It didn't look like a toy. It looked like a professional pinball machine. Did it feel more legit than like a Stern home game or ABBA?
    115:33
    Way legit. Everybody was playing it. There weren't that long of lines because he had four of them that were in a pod. But people were playing it constantly, and he was selling them, and the price was good. It was under $7,000, $69.95. For that, it was not a bad deal. And that kind of goes with what I was saying earlier. Like, if these guys price this stuff right, people will give them a chance. $10,000 is not, you know, you're bumping into the industry price. You get down there for $6,000, $7,000, and pinball people will buy it just because they're like, eh, you know. Yeah. It's not an entry-level price. It's a Stern Pro price. Right. Yep. To summarize, he listened to feedback, took it seriously, made the improvements, and now he's got a pretty square game. He's got a pretty solid game, I have to say, and people really enjoyed shooting it. And the other thing that was cool is he was open to – I even said to him, I said, hey, I just want to know, we ripped the hell out of your game before. I just said it right in front of his face. He's like, yeah, it needs a little – Oh, no, why did you do that? Spencer did. Well, okay. I said the spinner is lit, so I just made it. You should have left the room on time. Yeah, no, Dan left the room. Dan wants to go get like a Charcuterie or something. You know.
    116:55
    Ask him to go get a free sample. no we can't I know I know well he Jim was actually Jim Martin was really considering buying it but he didn't want to wait until March and April for it to ship because all the other ones were sold out I think they're making only like 200 right or something like that oh it was only 100 so well they're making this that was like his limit I just think that was just what he figured was like hey I'm going to make a hundred of these and we're going to see where we can go from here. Yeah, there's like a special edition with a plaque and a certificate and a comic book and a wrench and a tie-down strap and some other cool stuff. I mean, the costs were great. No, have you seen those? No, that's awesome. Yeah, it's actually, you know, God give me credit. People leave inside of your games. Yeah, right.
    117:52
    The code was good. Like I said, it was pretty complex. It looked complete to me. The animations were great on the display. The call-outs were good. It was a solid game for a first shot at pinball.
    118:08
    So I wish him the best of success. I think he has a lot of good intentions. Because he's actually delivering what he promised on. He's not over-promising and under-delivering. So I'll give credit where credit is due, and we'll see where it goes. We'll see where it goes. And the other thing, too, is I asked him about, you know, what assets. And he said the only assets that he was associated with was the software with Deep Root. But everything else, he had nothing to do with anything. So, I mean, like he already sold his assets off to, you know, to DPX. So he didn't want anything to do with Papa Duke either. He even said that to me. Well, I asked him about that, too, on, like, a forum. I was like, hey, I thought you had the rights to this stuff. And he's like, I did. And I was like, oh.
    118:56
    Yeah. Okay. He's smarter than the scene. That's just toxic, you know. Yeah, he knew it was toxic. He wanted to get rid of it. Even if it's not toxic, it's just like you probably need a little bit more resources than a startup's going to have to bring those designs to fruition. Right. You know, like Alice in Wonderland is an intricate game.
    119:24
    I'm willing to bet it's more intricate than Ninja Eclipse. I mean, having not had firsthand experience with either of them, I'm sure Retro Atomic Zombie Adventureland, you know, is going to be more intricate than, you know, Ninja Eclipse. Who knows what's going to happen with, what, Magic Girl?
    119:43
    Yeah. But, you know, there's a lot of baggage that goes with those. Did you see what they sold? The cooperative didn't design basic games. He always designed games that were a little bit on the fancier side, especially after soccer.
    120:00
    Right. Spencer, you were saying something about Magical? Yeah, Magical Girl at the auction at Xcode. Did you guys see what that stupid game sold for? Oh, my gosh. I'm telling you, that shit's like shit. I'm sorry. I played it. They had it actually playable. Whoever bought that, you're fucking stupid. It was crap. It was beautiful. It's not about being a good game. It's about having a collector's piece of what people don't have. See, I'm not a collector. I'm a player. I have some games. But you're not that kind of collector. Right.
    120:36
    Yeah. Backglass is gorgeous. It's the most beautiful artwork, for sure. But it got I don't think that game looks tacky. It does. It's not. Yeah, it's over the top a little bit. I know everybody loves Zombie Yeti, and, you know, I like his art on some of his certain stuff. I think Ghostbusters is a great-looking game. Yeah. But just kind of, yeah, I think that both Alice in Wonderland and Magic Girl, and I know he didn't take Alice in Wonderland all the way, but Magic Girl are both just kind of just a little bit, I don't know, too, meh. Yeah. I didn't like Avengers very much either, although Iron Maiden looks pretty fucking cool. Yeah. I think, like I said, it lost track of balls, and it shot two in the shooter lane. It couldn't fix that, and I didn't get a good feel for it. The code was really buggy, super buggy. I mean, it's definitely not something to play. I mean, if you want to have it with a box of lights, great. But other than that, it was not that impressive to play. Um, so anyway, so I had a chance to go and do all those kinds of things. And then, um, after I was done, then, uh, we had an opportunity to go to another social event. And this was a stern army event that was over, uh, at a place called microphones, which was a bar outside of where we were saying, and they had Metallica's there. They had Uncanny X-Men, and they had Metallica, the Metallica remastered. And even at the Stern party, the line took an hour to go through. Real quick, we're going to Metallica because I do want to hear about it. So you got to play both the pro and the LE version of X-Men?
    122:34
    Yes, correct. Okay, good. I got to play it. Yes, I did. I got to play, I went to the CERN area, and for Uncanny X-Men, I got to see the pro, which I thought shot great. The finger flicking the ball was not in the code, so I couldn't see that working, which disappointed me. Oh, wow. No, it wasn't working right. So I think they fixed that now, but unfortunately, there's no, there were no, there was no evidence of that working that I could see watching the game or playing the game. I didn't qualify but when I talked to somebody who said that the code is not there making that work properly. The hand crushing the wire form looked cool but a lot of people were saying and it did happen, as soon as it hit it went straight down the middle. Oh crap. So honestly speaking for your money I would get the pro. So there's nothing that makes that game any more fun on the LE, in my opinion. Even with the raising up and down, I really didn't see that much. It was already up to begin with, so I don't know what happens when it lowers down. I didn't really see that. Okay. So it didn't add a lot to the gameplay.
    123:52
    It's loaded for a pro. I mean, it is a great deal when you think about it. That game is awesome. The danger zone is awesome. like I said it's hard I mean you really got to play well and get those balls under control on that particular game yeah the danger room thank you danger zone is on you're right danger room I can't remember what I was talking about isn't it kind of ironic that it's danger room and it's also made by Jack Danger that's pretty funny that is the actual thing in the comics but then it also is named after him, which I think is cool. It's a masterpiece as far as layout. It's the coolest shooting game ever. I love the theme and the layout looks amazing. I can't wait to play it. The artwork looks great in person. Of course, it's busy, but it still doesn't look as bad when you see it in person versus seeing pictures or video of it. There's something about it seen in person that it's not as busy looking. I don't know. It's gorgeous. Gorgeous gameplay. Great. I loved it. I just wish I could get more time on it. I really understand the rules. And now we're going to be showing up on locations. I know we have one here. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah, you're going to have one. There's a couple over in the Denver. I just got to get over there and plan. There's an L.E. We'll for sure get one. You know they'll get one. I know Tony has an L.E., so you can see that if you come to Tahoe. I'm inclined to play. But apparently they'll only have one for a buck.
    125:23
    Wow, okay. If I go to a location and their games are on two balls, I am not putting any money on them. Are you serious? Two balls for a buck? That's what Jamie told me. She went there for a Halloween party. That's major price gouging. That's horrible. And then, you know, because they're going to listen to this and they're going to go, we've got to fix that. These guys were talking about us. Yeah, that's not okay. That's not okay. So I'm really looking forward to playing. I'm also really looking forward to hearing about Metallica because the second all that information on Metallica got released, all the other pinball media personalities that have been shilling like mad dogs for DPX for the last X weeks just dropped their panties and ran as fast as they could towards Metallica because obviously it actually has toys in it.
    126:17
    The talk of the show was Metallica as soon as it was brought up when they started revealing it to the pinball media when they had their special tour at Stern. I did not get invited to that, but that's okay because I did get to go to the Stern Army Party with Jim, and I got to play it. And man, I'm telling you, it shoots fabulous. I mean, it shoots like an original Metallica, but there was something about it. The ramps just shot smoother. And I think, I don't know if it's the half inch less play field because they had to design a mech or something to take place of that so that they had to cut off like a half inch. Really didn't make a big difference, but those ramps, wow, they should have done great. No, they added a magnet, right? They added something to it. But there's a magnet to the left of it in the orbit. Yeah. No, I don't think so. I thought there was. There's something that they did to shorten the play field I don't know exactly what it was for So my understanding From the Borg interview Is that not a thing On that game is completely untouched Like it's still Metallica But it's not It took every piece of it Everything has been tweaked Everything has been adjusted To make it a better version Of Metallica than it ever was Except for the somewhat uglier art which I'll die on that hill, sorry.
    127:49
    But, yeah, you know, it isn't like they just took old Metallica play fields and put new art on them and threw them in the game. Like, it is a new Metallica. It's just a new Metallica with essentially the same layout as the old Metallica. Right, absolutely.
    128:04
    The mechs were working great, of course. The hammer was awesome. Sparky was cool because they had UV lighting, so when he got electrocuted, Not only did Sparky move, but also you could see, like, the skeleton because it was the UV paint that was lit up when the UV lights went on, and the chair rocks back and forth. Oh, cool.
    128:27
    That was cool. Yeah, yeah. So you really got to see him electrocuted. Honestly, I like Sparky. I think that's a cool character, but this one is a little more serious looking. It's definitely more adult version of Metallica versus all-ages Metallica. definitely darker theme, more skulls, you know, but artwork is cool. I mean, it definitely has a different feel to it. The back glass of the premium looked kind of goofy. There was one band member that's, like, smiling on the back glass. I don't know.
    129:03
    Yeah. Yeah, he's grinning, and then Lars has a baseball hat on. It looked kind of weird. Oh, here's my question, right? Yeah. So, you know, I didn't get to hear it, or if I did hear it, like you didn't get to hear if they had it on family mode or not. Is it dropping F-bombs and stuff like the original one did? I couldn't hear it when I was playing at the party, unfortunately, because it was just so loud with other games going on and people talking. I think it does. It might. I think it does. But that was my whole thing is just like as long as they didn't, you know, back off on the content. But I know I've talked to a lot of people about Metallica in the last week or so, and everybody seems to super love it. And I'm like, hey, you know, I can't blame people for being excited. Metallica is a great game. Metallica has great art, you know, has great shots, has solid rules set. It's definitely one of Stern's most legendary games. I just don't get what the big fucking deal is, man. Like, Metallicas are out there. Like, Strat has sold a lot of Metallicas. There's no shortage of Metallicas. Why is everybody so damn excited about Metallicas? Because a lot of people couldn't get one for a decent price because nobody wanted to give it. You can get Metallica for a decent price forever. Fuck, I have a Metallica, and you know how cheap I am. That's true. Well, you bought that one a while back. Plus, you got inside because you're getting friendship prices. You're getting broke prices. No, I made a ridiculously good trade to the person who got it and then bought it for a fair price. I didn't underpay or overpay. Right, right. I paid about what Metallica's went for at the time, which was in the, I would say, in the $5,000 club.
    130:57
    Oh, that's a good price. It was a going price when I bought it. It wasn't like I got hooked up. Another added benefit is with the new Metallica, it's hooked up to... It's Serenity Insider Connected is one huge thing. And then the other thing that's cool is the assets are really cool. They used like a black and white artwork.
    131:21
    That was done really well with the different modes. Well, they don't really have modes, but the different things that happen in the game, Right. There's some really cool animations with black and white. And they added some songs. Oh, it's cool. And they added some songs, right? They have like 20 songs now on it, if I'm not mistaken. I think it's got like 28 songs. Yeah, they added about it. Okay. All right, so 28 songs. That's a lot. That's pretty good for a catalog. Nothing you want to listen to, but the lights is on there.
    131:51
    Yeah. It was cool. So anyway, I finally got to play it after waiting in line for an hour. and a guy just to the left of me on a le uh scored like 600 million and i was like holy crap there's no way i'm gonna be able to catch up to that and i was like i'm just gonna play it and i'm not even gonna worry about i'm just gonna just shoot the ball so i played my first ball and i drained it like within 30 seconds horrible horrible ball so waited for my next turn second ball I had a couple of things started. I almost started the Master Puppets in the graveyard, but not so good. Drained it. Second ball. $10 million I only had. $10 million. It's like, oh, gosh, this sucks. And I tilted it on top of that. Now, of course, bonuses aren't that big on Metallica, but I tilted it. And I think I knocked it off level somehow because I took it pretty hard. Damn. So now it was unlevel. Using the machines. Yeah, it was unlevel. So I don't know if it was unlevel to begin with. It might have been, but I just noticed it when I played my third ball. And my third ball could not drain. It was like Alex on barbecue. I was like that on Metallica. I had the ball under control because I figured I was leaning a little to the right, so I took advantage of it, and I started making all the shots. I made the snake shot. I started the Master of Puppets. I started Sparky. I started all these modes, and I even got to crank it up. I started to crank it up, and I just blew the game up. I went from $10 million to $760 million on my third ball. Nice, Mark. And, of course, I had two extra balls, so they didn't last long because my third ball was just killer. end up with the highest score on the scoreboard for the night and no, he beat it. Nice. So that was pretty cool. And everybody, it was cool because I was playing and everybody was watching. Cause once I passed the 600 million, like, whoa, what's happening over here. And then when I hit that, the score past the 600 million, everybody was cheering and clapping. It was cool. So it was a neat experience. It was fun. And yeah, my head got a little too big, but it was cool to, to see everybody cheering you on, you know, after I obliterated the other score by 170 million. So that was cool.
    134:31
    760, no, I can't remember. I think it was a 760, and then I was up on the scoreboard, and I don't think it's there anymore because they took the game out. So that sucks.
    134:40
    But it was on there. I did take a screenshot of it, and that was a fun night. And then after we were done, we came back, and then I just pretty much stayed in the showroom and played in the free play area. and they had a great free play area. They had some rare ones. They had Empire Strikes Back, a lot of Hankin games. There were like four or five Hankin games. You got to play that. That was super cool. Got to play that. They had that. They had a pinball expo theme game, which was kind of cool. It was a little basic, but it was cool to see that. It was the 40th anniversary, and they had a machine just designed for that, which I thought was cool. Those were all like Rob Burke's private collection. He brought over a hundred games. He did. He did, and they played great. The Empire Strikes Back. Unlike the other Expo. Yeah. Was that his game, or was that an auction game? I believe it was his game. Okay. I wasn't sure. That's really cool, because, I mean, they only made, like, 300.
    135:39
    He's big into international games. I mean, he's big into all the games. Right. But, like, he's big, big, big into, like, international stuff that you never saw released here. Like, he probably has an IO moon. Probably. Yeah he probably does He did not have it at the show but he did have some Zachariah ones that were really fun Of course the time machine one with the play field the circle raises up and lowers He had that on there. Of course, he had Farfalla. Yeah, all those games.
    136:13
    They had this one. I wish it worked. It was all air-powered. It was like a hydraulic. Oh, wow. But it didn't work, unfortunately. I was like, dang, I want to see this thing in action. But it was sitting there, and it was all like, it had like gauges on it and stuff, like all from air pressure. That definitely sounds like a game that wouldn't work. No, no. It was just a little too comfortable. It was pretty good for its own good, probably. Yeah. But cool nonetheless. They had the Magic Girl, which was cool, like I said, but it didn't play that well. I spent a lot of time there on Friday and then on Saturday. So now we're moving on to Saturday. Saturday was Pinball Olympics, and we got to play really, really fun, different events the way the machines were set up. So I'll just kind of highlight a couple that I really thought were fun. One was you're in this chamber, and the air would be swirling around you with balloons and garbage and whatever, you know, flying around you while you're trying to play Godzilla. That was cool.
    137:18
    Good finding. Yeah, so you had these huge fans, like four fans that would go in a cyclone and go around you. So that was cool. They had one where the balls were flying all towards you and hitting the play field and just almost like a waterfall of these balls. And actually, I did really well on it. It was on no good gophers. So all these balls, which are kind of like the things like when the kids jump, like a Chuck E. Cheese, you jump into the ball pit. Yeah, and they just kept flying onto the play field while you're trying to play, totally obstructing your view while you're playing it.
    138:05
    And you got medals. You got bronze, silver, and gold, and then I think you got a fourth place, which was like a purple medal or something like that. So they even had a fourth place.
    138:15
    We did pretty well. I got a gold medal on NBA Fast Break. So what they did is they hooked up NBA Fast Break with Dance Dance Revolution. Oh, my God. So you're jumping up and down on the floor to activate the flippers. So when you press down on it, of course, the flipper activates and goes up, and then when you get off. So I had to, like, stand in the middle and, like, stomp to get the flippers to be timed right to make the shots to get the baskets. And I ended up with 65 points and got gold for that, which was really cool. There was one with a kaleidoscope where you look in and it was spinning around while you're trying to play. I think it was, was it Millionaire? I can't remember. It was one of those games. He had so many games in there. There was one that I really enjoyed, which was Avengers. and the Avengers was hanging on a chain and you were sitting inside of a hammock and it raised you up and you were flying while you were playing the machine. I actually tilted the machine while I was flying. I saw pictures of that. Trying to get that. You saw pictures of that? Yeah, I did too. Yeah, so we did that. And we had one event, I think it was No Good Gophers, where Reno swept it And we got gold, silver, and a bronze all from Reno, which is really cool.
    139:42
    The food was awesome. They had tacos, street tacos all day long. Drinks were included. They had kids serving you drinks. It was pretty funny to watch that. And, of course, they had an open bar and everything, and it was all included. They had this one that was ridiculously wild where you walked in and it was a jungle theme for Congo. And they increased the humidity like to 150%. Wow. So it felt like you were in a jungle with it being like, you know, 90 degrees in there trying to play Congo. It was crazy. And then the kids were dressed up, or there were people dressed up in, like, eight suits, and they were, like, pestering you while you're trying to play it, hitting your legs.
    140:32
    That was really funny. They had jaws, funny jaws, where they had two guys dressed up with shark costumes and totally pestering you the whole time while you're trying to play. So they were ripping on you as a player, ripping on your shots or whatever, you know, just totally heckling you the whole time while you're trying to play that. That was one of the events.
    140:56
    There were so many different events. I mean, one was with Quicksilver where the play field was rocking back and forth while you're trying to play it. There was one, I think, was it Quicksilver? I can't remember. It was either Quicksilver and there was another one where it rocked back and forth left to right. So you had to play it while the ball was, like, getting shifted back and forth. There was one where you had to sit on this exercise thing and keep your seat all the way up to keep the game from tilting. So then once you let go, you tilted the machine. So you had to like sit on this thing and raise it up like a rowing machine kind of thing, but it was the seat, and you moved it all the way to the top, which then activated, which caused it not to tilt. They had Tiltalico, of course, there.
    141:43
    Just a lot of events. If you watch on YouTube, there's some that you can see. It was just a super fun time, and it went from 12 to 4, and it was just great because we all went home with a medal, which was great. There was only one in our group that did not, unfortunately, but it was pretty cool to see that we were recognized with it. And then they used to have a contest where you're on a treadmill, But they couldn't get the treadmill to go at a normal speed. It was at the highest speed. It was too dangerous. So they just did a door prize for glass signs, and I won the door prize and got fourth place, even though I wasn't even in the contest. They just had already the prizes, so they just gave it away as door prizes. It was a win. Yeah, it was a win. And, damn, those things were heavy, and I could have not put in my luggage because I would have gone over 50 pounds easily. So I had to figure out how to get that all home. it all worked out. So that was Saturday. Saturday night, I played all the way until 2 in the morning in the free play room, trying to get as many high scores as possible and putting my initials on the games. Making a mark, like I say, pinball mark, pinball on the mark. So I put like four games with the GC.
    143:05
    And then I had, I always play my classics. I always play Getaway towards the end of the night. There's always certain games you play that you want to play because you know how they play and you know the rules, and they're just things that you used to play when you're in college. So I obviously played those the rest of the night. And then they just shut the machines off right at 2 o'clock, and it was over. The show was finally over.
    143:31
    I got a gift for you, Dan. I can't tell you what it is until Christmas time, but when I see you, I'll give it to you. Oh, my goodness. Yep, I got something from there. And so just wanted to let you know that. And, yeah, I mean, it was definitely a fun time. You can be dropped up to ridiculously epic proportions in my head. It could be. I don't want to look big. It could be, yeah. It's ninja eclipse. Yeah, it's ninja eclipse. Yeah, so anyway, yeah, so it's definitely a great show. And there was plenty of pinball to play. oh there was a live band on Saturday night as well I forgot about that and they played all 80s music and they were incredible they played like a whole medley of 80 songs like 40 songs all in one medley and just really cool really awesome I mean they went all out for this 40th anniversary I don't think they can top it but just because it was the anniversary and they might not have as many factory tours they might not have as many games they might not have as much space but I'll tell you If you had a chance to go to the 40th, it was well worth it, and it was a great show. And I would go to Chicago again even if it wouldn't be as massive as it was for the 40th. But it was just a great vibe. People were cool, and I got to meet a lot of people from all over the world. There were people from Australia. There were people from Germany. In fact, quick story, one of the guys I met, his nickname is Pinball Rocker, and he is from northern Germany. I just found out that he lives about 12 minutes where my mom was born. Oh, really? In Germany. Oh, wow. He lives close to Dusseldorf and Cologne, which was crazy. Did your mom immigrate here or was she a military child?
    145:23
    No, she immigrated here. Oh, really? I did not know this. Yeah. Oh, okay. Yeah. There's something new. Yeah. She is from a little town called Votrup, which is outside of Dusseldorf. and I talked to him and I said, hey, do you know Butch Rupp? He's like, oh, yeah, I know Butch Rupp. I'm like, no way. I said, well, next time I come to Germany, I'll definitely look you up. We'll hang out. No, that's really cool. That's really cool. Met another person at the mixer and she's from Cahoga Falls and that's where my dad was born in Ohio. So I thought that was cool too. So it was like a small world, you know. But, yeah, what a great show. It sounds like the ultimate pinball. I can't see it anymore. I love the fact that you got to represent the show and that people are like, oh, yeah, I listen to you guys. You guys are fun. You know, cool. And I told everybody else. I said, hey, have you heard this thing? No. I was like, you should listen to it. Here it is. I told them. Yeah. No, man. That's cool. You know what? That's why it's like I let Dan go first because I knew you got a lot to talk about. Go. And you know what? Yeah, I had a lot. I have one more question. Something you didn't bring up. I don't even know if you've been looking at it. The home brew, not the home brew, but the people are there. Okay. They showed up to the 40th anniversary of Pinball Expo, a la John Papaduke with empty cabinets of a home game.
    146:48
    Oh, you're talking about the. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So the idea is it's going to be like an $800 virtual pin. You're talking about Wonderland? Wonderland, yeah. Not much to see. It was just a box with nothing on it. Yeah, you show it's the 40th anniversary of Pinball Expo, a la Johnny Papaduke with an empty cabinet with cool art. Go the fuck home. Go, go. Go stand in the corner, wait for the Blair Witch to kill you. You suck. Well, and I'm wondering about that project, too, because... They don't know what they're doing. Not that they're going to build an $800 pinball machine or they're going to build an $800 virtual pinball. No, no, they're saying real pinball. It's kind of a smaller pinball like Zizzle.
    147:42
    It's like a three-quarter cabinet. I think it's virtual. This has, oh, were those like adult gummies?
    147:50
    I ate 15 of them and don't know what the fuck I'm doing all over. Okay? It's like, seriously, you guys did an okay job on the arcade one-up. Okay, go invest in mutual funds. Shut the fuck up. Close the door on your way out, kids. This is grown-up time. We build pinball machines in this town. If you ever do want to embrace a very, very, like, just like pinball junior fandom, by the way, you need to really indulge in arcade one-up. I have an arcade one-up. No, no, no, no, you're not listening. I'm saying it's not about the Arcade 1-Up, it's about the fandom.
    148:32
    Like, they're like pinball people, but crazier because the stakes are lower. Okay, got it, got it. Like, to us, it's probably a little bit quaint because, you know, they're like, oh, $800. And we're like, boy, if there's a pinball machine that costs $800, I'd buy six of them just for fun. you know yeah it's funny though like the arcade one up fandom is absolutely insane but I do feel like it's a thing that it's best days are behind it yeah you know like arcade one up came out it did it's thing people thought it was cool and then the fad has kind of ended it's interesting to see a lot of the arcade one up in fact Stern kind of targeted them which is genius if you think about it but a lot of the arcade one up bloggers and stuff have really gotten into pinball, our pinball, real pinball in a big way. And I'm like, boy, that's a big graduation.
    149:34
    Well, I did because of Pinball Arcade. That's how I discovered pinball. You were playing that on your phone for free. Yeah. Like people were buying one up, you know, like Arcade one ups. I'm not bagging on the Arcade one up product. Like it's a cool thing. What I'm saying is it's interesting to see, you know, the level of modding and controversy and industry analysis and outrage that these people are doing over their, you know, half-scale arcade machines. It's very, very similar to what we do in pinball. Right. There are definitely arcade one-up, you know, probably more arcade one-up podcasts at least at one point than there are pinball podcasts. Wow, I had no idea. I've seen a few videos. It probably surprised me one little bit that they showed up with some mock-ups and said, hey, we're going to make this. Although it is very interesting that they called themselves Wonderland Amusements on the year that they introduced Alice in Wonderland. Yeah. I'm sorry, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland. Yeah, I thought that was... Alice in Stripperland. I thought that was very ironic. It's like, and showing up with, look, we have empty cabinets. You know, it's like, you guys have no fucking idea what you're doing. There was nothing to show. I mean, there was nothing to show. They paid money for a booth, didn't they? They did. Oh, God. Yeah, it was nothing.
    150:56
    He's an arcade one-up. These guys know less than nothing about pinball. I'm pretty sure not. Like, probably one or two of them has probably never actually even played a pinball machine. Oh, baloney. Well, I played the At Games one, and I forgot. Is that what they're called, At Games? There was one. And then one of the other companies made one.
    151:24
    They still have latency. I'm sorry. I think within Arcane, one up, make a couple of them. And yeah, they're just terrible. They're terrible. Yeah. They just don't. Why can't they get the latency down? Why? Is there something with digital versus analog that it just takes too long? I don't get it. You'd have to pay for good processing.
    151:45
    Yeah. Like it would be expensive. Like, you saw Don from Don's Pinball Podcast listed his, like, high-end virtual pin, and it's like $6,000. Right. And everyone's giving him a lot of crap about it, but it's just like, hey, man. But it does its job. You know, if you want to do a fake pinball machine right, it costs as much as a real pinball machine. Right. So you have to have a really high, a really strong processor is what you're saying to get that latency down. You need, well, you need a good processor and you need a good display. because the problem with latency is 99% of the time it's more about are you using a screen that doesn't need to, that can process the image fast enough. And in pinball, you know, a second is an eternity, right? If you hit the flipper and it happens a second later, you're completely removed from the game. Right. Well, it flings the ball instead of hits it. Yeah, it needs to happen immediately. Every time. I hate that. Otherwise, I would love virtual pinball, but that latency kills me every time, no matter how fast the processor is. I can tell. It just does not feel the same. The great selling point is you don't have a lot of room and or a lot of money. You can have, like, 200 games at your fingertips. Right. And that's a great – because I've played a few. I'm like, this isn't bad. This isn't bad at all. They had the one in Pinacogo a few years ago. It was kind of upright, like an arcade game, and that played real good. VP. VP, okay. Yeah, I really liked that. I was like, oh, and that demo man on it. I'm like, oh, this is great, you know. Yeah, those are actually pretty good. Here's the thing. When you play on the iPad, there's no latency. There's no latency, yeah. When you hit the pinball arcade flippers, they feel like real flippers. Why can't they do that with buttons? I don't know. There's got to be a latency. It's just not bad. It's just not, yeah. Yeah, and you're used to it. That's true. Okay. And an iPad for what you spend on it is a pretty, you know, sophisticated, well-built piece of equipment from a reputable company. I'm sure if you played Pinball Arcade on, like, a $20 Android tablet, it would feel like shit. Yeah, you're probably right. And the other thing, too, is you're hitting the screen. You're not hitting another, what would you call it, an input device that's separate from the digital. It's digital all the way by hitting the screen. These guys can actually put together something that's, you know, because Adam had her friend Adam Pressler, recipient of the prestigious Steve Charles Spirit Award. I didn't throw that in. Anyway, and a righteous dude. Oh, you did. That was such a great time. It was such a great pleasure and privilege for me to be able to give him that award. But anyway, he had had, he bought one for Max, Zizzle Pirates. He had it at the house. This is a dozen years ago. And, you know, it's been some years. But, like, I'm sitting there one night waiting to play something. I'm like, that's Zizzle's here, so I'll play a game or two. And I was having a fun time with it, you know. But it is what it is, you know, at the time. What were those new, about $400 or $500?
    154:54
    They were like $400. About $400, yeah. We got one out of Todd's shed before Todd passed for Brian's kids. And I brought it over for one of the first late nights at my house.
    155:06
    You know, for a toy pinball machine. Not bad. It's neat. It's got flippers that work. It's got targets and sounds. But at the same time, it's not a patch on even the home use pinball machines from the 70s. Right, right. You know, the Valley Home machines or the new Stern Home machines. Again, it's much, much more of a toy. Yeah. You know, you can pick that thing up and throw it around the room. It doesn't have a tilt, you know, like you'd have to be really good at it if you're trying to shoot for a real score on it. But, no, it looks like a pinball machine, and it sounds like a pinball machine. It's just, you know, it's a big step above tabletop pinball, but it's definitely a big step below real pinball. And that's what I was saying is, are these Wonderland guys, are they doing a virtual? Because a virtual for $800 is like, okay, well, people have done it. maybe if you can do a good one, or are they trying to do a real pinball machine? They're trying to do a real pinball machine, but – I think it's virtual. No, it's real. It's real. Yeah, I saw a little video thing, and it's just going to have a – like the ball, the metal ball, the steel ball is going to be three-quarters size of what a real pinball actually is. Okay. So it's actually – no, they're talking about a real mechanical pinball machine with mechanical features.
    156:29
    Okay, well, we've got to see what they come up with. And ramps and blippers and slingshots and spinners and targets. Yeah. Really? This is what I understood. This is the way I understood it. Because even talking about it, I saw it, but they're showing the ball. It's like, well, we're going to use this size ball. So it's basically the concept of just like with Arcade 1-Up, where it's going to be a three-quarter or ish. a three-quarter-ish. It's not going to be three-quarter exactly, but it's going to be like. Yeah, it does say the idea is three-quarter physical pinball. Can it work? Yeah, yeah. Wow. Let's talk about it.
    157:12
    That'll be interesting. Okay, can it work? Sure. At $1,000 a unit? I'm not seeing it. Even made in China. And then what's the quality going to be like? And what's the quality control going to be like? First of all, this is definitely not the time to talk about this since we're already going on to 2.40. We can talk about that when there's more to know. But at the same time, it's like, look, let's look at the bright side, right?
    157:40
    Arcade 1-Up has obviously been a gateway drug for people to get into real arcade collecting. I mean, it's not like pinball really needs more noobs at this point. But, hey, anything that gets more people into the game is cool, right? Whether it's a movie, whether it's games on location, you know, I think that we've proven that even at the stern pinball price points, like who knows how the whole Costco experiment's going, but are people paying $4,000 or $5,000 to take to a clinician's home? They're sold out everywhere. I could not believe it. You know, what's going to get pinball into people's houses? hey, maybe this is another way in. Yeah. And it is kind of cool to have a ball that's smaller to see how it shoots. I don't know. It would be interesting. I don't know, man. We'll see what happens. I do think for people like us, though, it's going to have to be a full-size ball because a three-quarter ball is going to be like, whew, whew, whew. It's going to be weird, man. It's going to be like the Avatar, basically like the Avatar of the lower play field. Yeah, that played really, really well, actually. Oh, yeah. Yeah. It's going to be like Stewie Pinball or like the Grandpa Dungeon. It's like the little teeny ball that's like... I actually really, really, really like the Munsters Dungeon one. I had fun playing that on the premium LH. Oh, I always thought that Stern needs to figure out how to make stand-alone Stewie Pinballs for like $100, and they'll sell a million of them. Yeah, they will. I bought one. Those are fun.
    159:14
    Yeah, that's true. See, that wasn't my beef. My beep was like, you show up with an empty cabinet. It's like, if you get... There was nothing to show. Show up with something to show, you know? Yeah, there was nothing to show. It's too bad. I mean, they should have... Like the lab. Yeah, maybe they should have waited. Yeah, exactly. I mean, they got their company name out there, Wonderland. That's it. I mean, shit, we're talking about it. We are accomplished. Well, there you go. We're talking about it. I just, I'm shaking my head. You look what we did. I'm just shaking my head. First you made Ninja Eclipse a giant hit, and now you're going to do it for these guys, too. I'm going to hear this podcast and be like, well, Spencer hates it. It's got to be freaking good. I got to give it to Spencer. Here's my $800. Yeah, there you go. That's what Mark got me for Christmas, an empty Wonderland cabinet. Absolutely. I sold it. This is the best gift ever. He got you. He's going to wait until next year at Golden State and bring the autographed by the entire design team ninja clothes t-shirt on me.
    160:15
    Now, you know what? I wish the guy much success. You deserve that. They do. They proved me. Well, I won't say wrong. They listened, and they actually made legit changes that actually make sense.
    160:28
    Yep. Okay. So, you know what? Since you were there, let's ask you the follow-up question. What was your game of the show?
    160:39
    Oh, boy, that's a tough one. It could be the homebrews. It doesn't have to be the production games. All right. I liked Zeppelin. I loved Zeppelin with the staircase. It was just, it had that one, you know, that one more play feel to it. Tony Hawk was great, too.
    160:57
    Okay. Follow-up question. Yeah. What is your production game of the show? It has to be, as far as just the whole package, for sure, Uncanny X-Men.
    161:11
    For sure. Yeah. Without a doubt. just, it's just super fun to shoot. There's no other way around it.
    161:20
    Yep. That is a cool game. It's a really good game. I mean, if you want to get into pinball, and you want to get a pro,
    161:30
    you can't go wrong getting this game. I mean, hell, if I could beat Bond, I'd probably get an Uncanny X-Men, but I gotta beat Bond before I can get rid of that. So, yeah. Bond, James Bond James Bond, yeah So yeah, I mean Here's the way I look at it Okay, the most beautiful game was Alice in Wonderland I thought that was really cool looking When we're talking about the sculpts Sculpts were amazing The most fun to play was Uncanny X-Men The best theme Was definitely Avatar For sure The most surprising One that I really enjoyed was Ninja Eclipse yeah as far as like beyond my expectations I was really like thinking this was going to be crap and it wasn't it was super fun to shoot and everybody's saying that they've done a nice job they've really fixed it I mean it's good job I'm super hoping next year to get to see some of these games Golden State California Extreme or Pinnagogo or people's private collections. But, yeah, I'm really glad that you got to go do this experience and that, you know, you got to check all these games out and meet all these people. And it sounds like it was the ultimate pinball adventure. Yeah. It was the ultimate pinball adventure. And we had such a great time. I mean, Steve and Jim and Brandon and all those guys that went with us, it was really awesome. And we had George there. So we had a lot of people from Reno that were representing, Even Roger and Bob were there, too. And so they had their own booth for pinball traders and also Planetary Pinball, so they were doing that both. So it was cool. We really represented well, and I think we put ourselves on the map. So when they hear Spinner's Pinball Podcast, when they met us in person, they know who we are. I know. And that was the whole point was to go over there and get our name out there. Yeah. So, yeah, we didn't have merch. Eventually we will. we'll get a nice design. It's just a matter of time, but at least we got the word out.
    163:45
    Yeah. No, that's, you know, I won one. I forgot to tell you that. I won a loser kid hat as a, a door prize. And it was funny too. It was like, Oh, I'd love to have that hat. And that's the last thing they called my number off. I was like, yeah, cool. I do have a loser. Good. You must be the luckiest dude I've ever met. God, I got so lucky.
    164:08
    You're just coming up aces. door prizes and drawings and killing it. When I was a kid, I never won any door prizes. So this was, yeah.
    164:18
    That's right. It's the karma. You've built up the karma. Yeah. So you got back like Sunday. You flew back like last Sunday, right? Yeah, I flew back on Sunday and I had to go to work the next day and it wasn't easy. I'm telling you, it was not easy. Like a whole day of travel and then back in the grinder. Yeah, I've done that too many times myself. And what was great is the flight to and from had no issues, no delays, no cancellations, no turbulence. It was a perfect trip. And on top of that, I don't want to jinx myself, but I didn't get any of the convention crud. There was nothing going around. No one got sick. Well, the weather's been unseasonably good here in the West. It helped. I mean, I thought there was going to be, you know, getting the flu or getting a cold or something. I said, we can't be as pinball shows are because you're touching. Everyone's touching. It's like, yeah. You almost never see the pinball show as a germaphobe. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I'm a germaphobe, but I just wash my hands all the time. But the bottom line was, oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Big time. I know. I was always washing my hands or using sanitizers and stuff.
    165:36
    Yeah, I hate being sick. I hate it. We all do. I hate it. Yeah, the weather has really been cooperative so far. It was great. We've been in the 70s here, you know, mid-high 70s. Up until today, we were 68. But as I'm speaking, it may already be raining and snowing. We've got a big storm coming in. So our first one of the season. Well, weather was cold when we first got there. It was rainy, and then it started warming up, and then eventually it was in the 70s on Saturday for Pinball Olympics, which was perfect weather. Couldn't have been better weather. So it was just an awesome trip. Nothing went wrong. We all got along. We all got to know each other more.
    166:17
    I got to meet so many people from all over the world. It was just a great show. It was everything I expected and more. It was awesome. So hats off to Rob Burke and Bridget if you listen to our show. you really did a great job organizing it. That was a huge undertaking. There were some things that needed to be ironed out, like with the Galloping Ghosts and stuff, but that really wasn't, it was more or less just a miscommunication during that day. But other than that, everything went smoothly. The games played great. The variety was awesome. The vendors were accessible. It was awesome. Nice.
    166:55
    No, no. Mark, thank you. Thank you for giving us, you know, more information. than any other podcast has given us on Expo that I've listened to. Yeah, sorry. No, it's all right. Don't be much detail. And I definitely got to go next year. Yeah. But there was a lot going on. I mean, that's why we let Dan go first because I got nothing. And, you know, it's like, well, I fixed the plumbing, you know.
    167:19
    No, when you were talking about like, oh, I'm only going to be on for like, you know, we're going to try for under two hours. No way. I'm going to keep you talking about it for three hours. Exactly. No, but no, this is what we wanted, man, because this is very exciting. It's the 40th anniversary of the show that started it all, and you got to be there, and you got to represent all of it. I did not do any seminars. I feel bad about it, but I was just out and about all the time. There's so much going on, man. Yeah, I couldn't go to any seminars. I heard the Lawler Show was a debacle anyway. Oh, really? Yeah. It was like a 90-minute show, and it was like 75 minutes of people introducing themselves. Oh, wow. Oh, really? When you look at the lineup of the people who it is, it was like a who's who. It was like everybody in the history of pinball was there. Oh, wow. Oh, man. I still would have went there. It would have been worth it just for 75 minutes of introductions. No doubt, right? Well, Pinball News will have it all on stream, so I'm going to watch those. It's all on video, so we can still see it all. Good. You know, at the end of the day, you know, if you didn't get out and go places and see things and play pinball and win stuff, you know, like I was saying when we were talking, it was like, hey, send us pictures. You're just like, oh, I'm so busy. That's the number one priority, man. Just play a lot of pinball so you can come back and we can live vicariously through you. And now I will post pictures. And if I still can't post them, I'll just send them to you guys. I already shared the album, so hopefully you have it and you can look at those pictures. I haven't yet, but I've done a lot. I took a lot of pictures, more than I normally do. Usually I take like 20 and that's it. I took like 120 or something like that. Facebook is the spinner is lit. Watch for some exclusive behind-the-scenes expo content. Yes. From Mark. I just got to pick the right pictures. That's the problem because there's a lot of them. All right. Well, hopefully not the naked ones. Okay. So, no. Anything else we got, Mark? We've covered everything.
    169:26
    That's everything I can think of. I think I went through all the days. Like I said, it was a whole week-long event, you know, like I said, from Tuesday all the way through Saturday night or Saturday morning, I should say, until 2 a.m. The only thing I want to say, I want to plug, that this weekend on Saturday through Sunday, we have a 24-hour tournament that's going to be starting at 5, I think it's 6 p.m. on Saturday and ending at 5 p.m. on Sunday. So it is 24 hours, literally, because we have a time change. So we obviously end at 5 instead of 6 because we get that extra hour. Where is this at? So this is at Press Art. Okay. 24-hour tournament. It is called The Nightmare on Center Street. So it's on Center Street in Reno, Nevada. In Reno, Nevada. And it is a $100 entry. It is going to be awesome. Breakfast and lunch are included. And they're also going to give out some really cool swag for the event. So if you are listening and you're close to the Reno area and you want a lot of points for Whoppers, this is going to be intense because it's going to be 20 rounds with three games in each round. So you're talking a lot of pinball Wow 24 hours worth I would absolutely come to that if I thought there was any chance I could survive it Yeah, same here Like I promised you, 11 o'clock on the first night of I'd make it to like 8.30 I'd be out I'm old, man 60 games of pinball match play We're up like 3 hours past my bedtime now So I was going to say, you know, you at least have the time shift to blame, but that sounds like it's going to be amazing. Let's hope that you guys all make it through reasonably intact.
    171:28
    What I'm worried about is going the next day on Monday for school. Yeah, that's going to be crazy. Have my idea is the kids pick you up and bring you home and just put you right to bed. Yeah, I think that's what I'm going to have to do because, holy cow, that's going to be crazy. And I've done it before. I can stay up late, but playing pinball nonstop with only a break between lunch and breakfast, that's it. Yeah. 24 hours. Man, that is insanity. I probably will be sick of pinball after playing that. But if I'm not, then I'm really highly addicted and I've got a real problem. I feel like the problem is that, like, I only stay up, like, all night when my body just refuses to sleep. I feel like if I tried to do it on command, I would be as sleepy as I've ever been. Yeah. Yep. Like, I'd just be like, oh, man, it's totally time for bed. It's like Spencer said, it's like 830. I'll be like, ooh.
    172:23
    But it sounds like I heard about that when he first put the feeler on, like who would be interested in doing this? And I'm just like, oh, man, that would be really, really cool.
    172:35
    Yeah. until reality strikes you don't want to admit that you're 50 years old and you can't do this anymore you want to think I'm like 22 years old I don't need to sleep yeah I know we'll definitely be looking forward to your recap on that oh my gosh that's going to be crazy like I said it's going to be nuts because I mean like I said it's match play regular match play but with 20 rounds of 3 games each So 60 games to play. I'd be asleep on one of those little couches so quick. Oh, my gosh. And we'll see how we do. I mean, I always play better the later it gets, but the question is where does it stop when it's too early in the morning? A start's a cool place to do something like that, though. Yeah, yeah, it is. You know, it's a comfortable environment. There's places to rest between games. And is the bar going to stay open? you can just get really fucked up. The bar, I believe, is saying open. It's about about closing at 2 o'clock, right, or 1 o'clock, whenever it closes.
    173:42
    Yeah, I don't know how the bar will work. I don't know if that's going to be open, but I know that we'll have drinks and water obviously available and snacks and stuff like that.
    173:51
    But, yeah, I mean, it's crazy, man, and the pot's going to be huge, $100 a person, and it's going to be roughly $500, $600 for first place. So that's not bad to make that money in 24 hours. You're going to earn it. And then some. I hope so. I mean, I'm going to, I'm going to, I want to see if I can survive. I've never done that before. So it's like doing a marathon. Yeah, I would be happy just to win it. I don't need to win. I just need to survive. Just to survive, right? Yeah. And how many points is it going to be worth? You know, that's what I want to see. Like how many whoppers is it going to be? I mean, that could change everything. I mean, I need, you know, I need like 10 more to get in the top eight because I'm fall behind. Now I'm in the 11th place. So trying to get back up there in top eight so I can get that by. And what if he won the Expo tournament?
    174:45
    Yeah, I know. Jack won the Expo tournament. I know. So he brought it home to the West. And he's playing in that 24-hour tournament. So that'll be interesting to see how he does. Oh, yeah. Probably really well because he's young. He's going to kill. He's probably on an emotional high. Yeah. You know, anytime you come off of a win against Zach McCarthy, you're probably feeling pretty good. Yep. Yeah, Zach McCarthy's really a good player. Oh, that was the other thing. I did go to JJ's suite. He had a party, and Escher was there, and all he was doing was just trying to beat Godzilla. And then, like, on his first game, he had, like, almost $2 billion. It's like, damn, how do you play that well? So not as good as Rick?
    175:34
    Yeah. Oh, not as good as Rick? No. No, Rick, we were at Rick's. We were at, oh, dude, we were at Jeff and Courtney's one night, and Rick's wife is ready to leave. And Rick hung, like, $5 billion on it and got to, like, Planet X. He didn't King of the Monsters, but he kicked that King's ass.
    175:58
    Five billion. Wow. That's impressive. No, dude. That dude's a machine at that Godzilla. Cool. Yeah, well, that game I'm never good at. I don't think I can ever be good at it until I own one. Then I'll be good at it. But, man, I just never play it well at any tournaments or anything. I just don't get the feel for it. I haven't been playing it much lately. But, yeah, having it at home, it's cool. Like, it's a really good game. Oh, yeah. Not my theme, but, like, I can tell why it's the most popular they're starting because it's fun to shoot.
    176:31
    Yeah, absolutely. And Jaws is great, too. I love Jaws. That's fun to play, too. Yeah. Do you like it? I'm going to try to talk Rick out of that next when he's beating that game into submission. I'm going to be like, hey, by the way, how about letting me take Jones for six months? Yeah, there you go. Back at this point, I'd just be happy to get Bram Stoker's back. And speaking of that, is that the next – who's the next designer for January? I don't know. Is it Elwind? Is it possibly Elwind? How long ago did Elwind come out with Jaws? Oh, no, it didn't be Elwind. It was the beginning of the year. March, April, yeah. Okay, so he was spring. March, April, yeah.
    177:09
    And Borg did – I'm assuming Metallica was probably taken care of for Borg. So what's – who's the next designer? It would be – Not danger, because he just came out last week. No, it would be Eddie. Eddie, yeah, Brian, Eddie. Or no, because Eddie just did John Wick. No, no, that wasn't Eddie. That was a new guy. Yeah, so it's got to be Eddie unless George Gomez is releasing another game. All right, it's too late for game speculation. Let's take it home. I'm just trying to get it right to three. We're going to have a little bit of editing because I lost connection twice tonight. Okay. There's a lot of language. Yeah, it's fine. Shout out to Janky who will take us to 3. Shout out to Janky. Quit sandbagging your basket. Yeah, all right, Mark, quit, go.
    177:59
    All right, shout out to everybody who organized the Pinball Expo. It was awesome. And thanks to Rob Burke, Bridget, for organizing everything and making it a memorable experience. And to all the cool people that I met, shout out to you guys. and all the podcasters and everybody. Shout out to you as well. It's nice to give me a lot of time to talk about it and share the world about my experience at Expo. Awesome. Thanks for bringing it.
    178:31
    Dan. Hey, a big thanks to Mark for taking the Spinner's Lit to Expo and, you know, waving the banner and having a good time and just being a G. a big thanks to Spencer for not doing fucking shit big thanks to Spencer for keeping this house up you know to all the usual suspects, CCPL all of our hosts, you know everybody who's putting pinball out there and running events, you know again congratulations to Alex, you know big thanks to everyone who puts on Pinnagogo.
    179:14
    And, yeah, man, you know, it's a good time to be a pinhead. It is. Yeah, I want to shout out and thank you to all our lovely listeners for continuing to support us and all the other content creators. I listen to all these guys, you know, because I'm alone in a vehicle eight hours a day. And you guys keep me going, man, all you guys. So all the people that Mark mentioned And ones that he didn't even mention I listen to your shows every time You got a new show out Thank you for producing content And more pinball is always good I want more pinball I want more good pinball Just show up with something in a box So anyway That's it man, thank you to all our listeners And all the content creators and all the wonderful people That put on shows and Organize and determine some leaks and for keeping pinball going into the future. So this is... Where can they find us? Oh, yes. Our flagship, thank you, The Spinner's Lit, you can email us at thespinnerslit at gmail.com. You can look us up on Facebook at The Spinner's Lit. And our flagship is SoundCloud, The Spinner's Lit Pinball Podcast, and iTunes, and where other fine podcasts are sold. So that's it, man. So thanks again and enjoy a really fun and long episode. That's okay. Mark's going to edit this down for us real nice. So, guys, take us home. Play pinball. Keep America strong.
    181:05
    Thank you.