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Episode 34 - Limited Edition #601

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·1h 2m·analyzed·Jan 15, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

SWL #34 analyzes Munsters versions, extra LE release, and TNA production wrap.

Summary

Ken Cromwell and Bill host Special When Lit episode 34 with guest Scott Denise, discussing the recently revealed Stern Munsters pinball machine. They analyze the three versions (Pro, Premium, LE), debate the merits of each, and discuss Stern's decision to release an additional 100 LEs beyond the original 500. The conversation also covers Texas Pinball Festival plans and Scott's experience wrapping up production on Spooky's TNA (Impact) after 550 units, now transitioning to Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle.

Key Claims

  • Stern revealed Munsters with professional special effects makeup on Jack (JJP designer) and Zach (Stern designer), with Gary Stern dressed as Grandpa Monster at a Vegas hockey game

    high confidence · Scott Denise describing the reveal event details

  • Stern originally announced 500 LEs for Munsters but confirmed an additional 100 LEs would be released to distributors due to demand

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell confirmed with Zach Sharp; quote: 'all things are subject to change'

  • Spooky Pinball has completed production on TNA/Impact at approximately 550 units, down from an initial hope of 50-100 units

    high confidence · Scott Denise discussing TNA production wrap; confirms 550 as cutoff

  • TNA outsold previous Spooky high of Rob Zombie at 300 units; Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle launched after hitting 500 units (captive run)

    high confidence · Scott Denise comparing production numbers across Spooky titles

  • Scott Denise is continuing software updates on TNA post-production, fixing small bugs and tuning reported issues

    high confidence · Scott discussing ongoing code maintenance despite production wrap

  • Pro version of Munsters features full color without lower playfield; Premium is black/white with inserts in color and lower playfield; LE is full color with lower playfield

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell explaining the three version tiers

  • Special When Lit podcast team booked the Indigo Hotel in Texas (3-4 blocks from main venue) for Texas Pinball Festival because they didn't book early enough for closer hotels

    high confidence · Ken Cromwell recounting pre-podcast hotel booking discussion

  • Spooky will have Alice Cooper and TNA machines at Texas Pinball Festival; Twippies moving from basement broadcast to live show at TPF with expected red carpet/dress-up event

    high confidence · Ken and Scott discussing TPF announcements

Notable Quotes

  • “if I wanted a black and white pin, I want it to be completely black and white. I'm talking everything. Make the inserts all white. GI, all that. Everything.”

    Scott Denise @ ~mid-episode — Expresses strong design philosophy on aesthetic consistency; illustrates collector preference for cohesive vision over hybrid approaches

  • “black and white is kind of cool. It's like a changing of seasons for me...But a couple of months in the winter, I'm ready for spring. I'm ready for some color. And when you have a black and white play field like that Twilight Zone, dude, spring's never coming.”

    Bill @ ~mid-episode — Poetic analogy explaining personal aesthetic preference; captures the collector tension between novelty and playability

  • “it's more just in your face...It's more unique when it plays faster.”

    Scott Denise @ ~mid-episode — Indicates preference for Pro version based on gameplay feel and speed, not just aesthetics

  • “all things are subject to change. But because of demand from our distributors, we thought it was worth it to provide this, an extra 100 LEs to the buyers.”

    Zach Sharp (via Ken Cromwell) @ ~mid-episode — Official confirmation of LE expansion; signals strong distributor/market demand for Munsters

  • “There's so much that can go wrong during production that it's constantly stressful...You got something weird and something's wrong. Right. You know, you have to go through and correct a bunch of things.”

    Scott Denise @ ~latter half — Candid perspective on manufacturing complexity and operational stress; speaks to supply chain realities

  • “I was hoping for 100, but I was okay with 50...their whole thing is they can make low runs, and this was a little bit out of control for them.”

    Scott Denise @ ~latter half — Reveals TNA far exceeded initial expectations; shows Spooky's business model (low-run specialty) was strained by unexpected success

  • “I didn't really like coding it because it's a lot of work...unfortunately, had to do it all myself, which was pretty rough.”

Entities

Ken CromwellpersonBillpersonScott DenisepersonZach SharppersonJackpersonGary SternpersonChristopher FranchipersonJason Fowlerperson

Signals

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern expanded Munsters LE production from 500 to 600 units (additional 100) in response to distributor demand, signaling confidence in demand but also attempting to mitigate secondary market scalping

    high · Ken Cromwell confirmed with Zach Sharp; quote: 'all things are subject to change. But because of demand from our distributors, we thought it was worth it to provide this, an extra 100 LEs'

  • ?

    product_launch: Spooky Pinball completed TNA (Impact) initial production run at approximately 550 units, exceeding prior company record of 300 units (Rob Zombie), and transitioning to next title Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle

    high · Scott Denise: 'production's just about wrapped up for this initial run of TNAs...550, I think is where it's cut off' and 'I believe they're completely done building them'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community reception of Munsters Premium (black & white with colored inserts) shifted from skeptical to more positive after reveal; hosts acknowledge pre-reveal doubts now softened

    medium · Ken: 'after seeing it, it is pretty beautiful' and 'I will eat crow a little bit because I was a little bit down on the black and white'; hosts acknowledge it 'is pretty beautiful' upon closer inspection

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Scott Denise's design process emphasizes observation-based playtesting in Whitewood format, reading player reactions nonverbally rather than relying on verbal feedback, informing tuning decisions

    high · Scott: 'The best part about TNA was actually watching other people play it in its Whitewood format...you could just kind of tell if they were a little frustrated by something, and I'm like, okay, I need to probably back that down a little bit'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.187

0:00
coming at you out of st charles illinois the special when lit pinball podcast starts now hey what's going on pinball land and welcome to episode number 34 of the special when lit pinball podcast my name is ken cromwell and i am bill uh we've got special guest hosts today scott denise he's joining us on the uh on the program what's up scott hey everybody how are you We're doing good, man. How are you doing? I'm doing great, man. It's good to be back. Good things all happening in Scott Denise-y land, or what's happening with you? Yeah, everything's great, man. Yeah, I can't complain. Perfect. Well, you could complain. Yeah, I mean, I could. I'm not going to.
0:42
How about you, Bill? Rocking and rolling, or what? Yeah, pretty much. All things are good considering. So, you know, it's that time of year. So we just recently had the stern reveal of Munsters, and it just seems to me like we are experiencing overwhelmingly positive reviews on all fronts for the most part with Munsters. Scott, did you get a chance to check out the reveal? Did you see anything with the pin? I did, actually. So he revealed it in the middle of the day, which is really tough for people that have day jobs. Yeah, right. But I've got this TV in my office now, so I was just like, uh just like put it on the tv real quick i'm like all right let me check that out so pinball life you've got like a 65 inch flat screen uh curve in there i mean you know it's like 42 or whatever i mean yeah nice it's beside the point but you know um yeah no it was really cool uh i saw that reveal first of all i was just laughing because uh you know jack and and zach oh yeah those guys with the uh i'm like what you're gonna be kidding me they had crazy makeup going on and it wasn't like it wasn't thrown together it looked like it was a professional stuff it's not face paint it's not like you go hey i want to you know make me a monster on my face you know it's not that so it's like right i mean it's seriously like i mean it had like special effects makeup i didn't recognize jack at first when they had the reveal because i saw herman munster or like frankenstein walking around and if it wasn't for his height i don't know that i would have recognized it as jack in all honesty dude i didn't recognize zach yeah i know zach was crazy i was like who is that and i watched him play i'm like oh yeah there he is oh there he yeah and then he had gary uh stern his grandpa monster and that was a cool costume i saw pictures later that night um when we did the the panel interview and i think it was borg was show was it borg on his phone he's like hey check this out and gary was at the hockey game like with his face up against the glass and he was still dressed as grandpa monster like in vegas uh which i thought was which which was pretty funny but that's just part of the course out uh out there you know yeah I heard also that they got on the big screen, too. Did they really? Yeah. I believe it. I think Gary was on the big screen, yeah. That makes sense, as long as it wasn't Kiss Cam, because that could have been actually interesting, too. Yeah, it could have. So we've seen all three versions, and we kind of touched on this two episodes ago, but you've got the Pro, which has the full color without the lower play field. You've got the Premium, which has the lower play field but is black and white with touch of color. And then you've got the LE model, obviously, which has the lower play field and the color. I'm on the fence between versions, and after we've kind of digested this over the last couple days, and I'll go to you, Bill, have you had any further thoughts on if you were to go in on a Munsters, which version would you prefer and why? Okay, so I really do, my two favorites would have to be the Pro and the Premium. Pro because I really, really like that green. That really, really stands out. I like how the center of the playfield, even though it doesn't have the lower playfield, It doesn't look like there's just a sticker covering it. ACDC, you kind of see the outline where it should be.

Scott won Twippies last year for Best Sound & Call Outs, Best Light Show, and was nominated for Game of the Year (lost to Dialed In)

high confidence · Scott confirming his Twippies wins and nomination

  • Scott's best part of TNA development was watching people play the Whitewood format and observing their reactions rather than coding

    high confidence · Scott reflecting on TNA development experience; says coding was done solo and difficult

    • Scott Denise @ ~latter half — Underscores solo development burden and difficulty of modern pinball software engineering

  • “The best part about TNA was actually watching other people play it in its Whitewood format...I was paying a lot of attention to what they liked and what they didn't like, and they didn't even have to tell me.”

    Scott Denise @ ~latter half — Highlights designer methodology: playtesting feedback through observation rather than verbal reports

  • “When Stern has these machines that they put out, the LEs, that people are flipping and making $12,000 on a $9,000 machine, that's money out of their pocket.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~mid-episode — Addresses scalper secondary market and Stern's business concern about MSRP appreciation circumventing their margins

  • “if one more LE gets out there that somebody's not spending 12 grand on...that's money out of their pocket.”

    Ken Cromwell @ ~mid-episode — Frames extra 100 LEs as consumer protection against forced appreciation; defender of accessibility over scarcity

    • Charlie
    person
    Mike Nogleperson
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    Munstersgame
    TNA (Impact)game
    Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castlegame
    Dialed Ingame
    Rob Zombiegame
    Twilight Zonegame
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent
    Twippiesevent
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Slap Save Pinball Podcastorganization
    Pinsideorganization
    Indigo Hotelproduct
    ?

    code_update: Scott Denise continuing software updates on TNA post-production wrap, fixing small bugs and player-reported issues, with intent to eventually reach stable/final state

    high · Scott: 'I'm still focused on TNA doing software stuff...fixing little tiny things that bother me...someone reports a bug or something that i wasn't able to find i'm able to go in and just fix it'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Scott Denise describes manufacturing challenges during TNA production including supply chain inconsistencies, parts sourcing issues, and quality control rework despite repeat vendor orders

    high · Scott: 'There's so much that can go wrong during production that it's constantly stressful...certain parts aren't the same as they were even though you ordered the same thing from the same vendor'

  • ?

    business_signal: Spooky Pinball's TNA production exceeded business model expectations significantly (550 units vs. hoped-for 50-100), pushing manufacturing capacity constraints and stressing solo designer/programmer

    high · Scott: 'I was hoping for 100, but I was okay with 50...this was a little bit out of control for them' and 'at that point in time, they had the maximum number of games that they had sold was Rob Zombie at 300 games...and then this thing just kind of got out of control'

  • $

    market_signal: Hosts discuss secondary market flipping of LE machines (buying at $9k MSRP, reselling at $12k+) as a concern for manufacturers and consumers; extra 100 LEs positioned as strategy to improve accessibility and reduce forced appreciation

    medium · Ken: 'When Stern has these machines that they put out, the LEs, that people are flipping and making $12,000 on a $9,000 machine, that's money out of their pocket' and 'if one more LE gets out there that somebody's not spending 12 grand on'

  • ?

    event_signal: Special When Lit team booked travel for Texas Pinball Festival in March; Twippies awards show relocating from basement to live broadcast at TPF with expected red carpet/dress-up element; community plans multi-day event with food trucks and social gatherings

    high · Ken: 'we finalized our Texas Pinball Festival trip' and 'Twippies have totally changed. We covered this a little bit when Zach was on the show, but they're going from broadcasting this out of their basement to a live show at Texas Pinball Festival'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Pro version of Munsters plays faster and more aggressive due to stand-up targets (vs. drop targets in other versions); hosts preference driven by faster, more direct play style and aesthetic uniqueness

    medium · Scott: 'in place of like drop targets they've got stand-up targets which make the game just ridiculously fast...I like the pros though also because...they just have...stand-up targets which make the game just ridiculously fast'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Scott Denise describes TNA music development cycle: initial rushed game loops to meet 1.0 release deadline, followed by full song remaster with intros/outros, album release on cassette, then 1.2 update reintegrating remastered audio into game

    high · Scott: 'I made a goal for myself that when we released the 1.0 version of that game, it was going to have all of the music in it...I ended up...making game loops at first to just get the game out the door...then from there once stuff settled down...I was able to go back and remaster all the music'

  • ?

    community_signal: Ken casually references scaring Christopher Franchi at Expo and joking about Scott's behavior at shows; light-hearted ribbing suggests strong interpersonal relationships within small industry community

    low · Ken: 'I think I scared Christopher Franchi at Expo. He saw a side of me that he's probably not used to seeing from most people'

    • 3:42
    So the fact that it looks seamless there, I really, really like. The premium, I like because it is different. But if I were to go in on one, it would probably be the Pro because I like the color, and I really like that green. You think you're missing anything without that lower play field? I mean, it's hard to say because we haven't played it. Yeah, but as of right now, that's where I would probably be at is the Pro because I really like it, and I don't think you're really missing it. I mean, you're obviously missing on some of the experience, but I really like that green enough that I could overcome it. Scott, with those three models, I mean, anything jump out at you that seems more interesting or less interesting than any other option on any other pin? Yeah, so, I mean, I'm going to have to agree with Bill, man. The Pro is, I think, where I would be as well. I think the artwork on the cabinet is just far superior. I really like the idea of black and white on the Premium, but I'll tell you what. if I wanted a black and white pin, I want it to be completely black and white. I'm talking everything. Make the inserts all white. GI, all that. Everything. See, I disagree. I mean, that's just way too much. Well, you could RGB the inserts to still indicate, but holy crap, man. Have you seen that Twilight Zone that Mike Nogle made? I did see it. It's cool to look at. I don't think I could flip that. If I could have that Twilight Zone or a full-color Twilight Zone, and money was no object, I would offer the full-color version of Twilight Zone. I don't know, man. It's so rare, too. He spent so much time building that thing, too. Rarity aside, in a small collection, you're limiting yourself to just black and white with no color. Have you ever played on a pin that was just strictly black and white? I've never played on a pin that was strictly black and white. I don't know that I would like it more than anything else. I mean, it's classy. It's collectible. But my goodness. And I'm not talking about the premium that's released because there is color in this monster's premium. But a black and white. And I said this analogy out to Bill and I was like, listen, black and white is kind of cool. It's like a changing of seasons for me. Right. So you go in the winter. The first snowfall of the year is usually like a beautiful experience because everything, you know, at that point just changes to a soft white and everything's kind of clean. But a couple of months in the winter, I'm ready for spring. I'm ready for some color. And when you have a black and white play field like that Twilight Zone, dude, spring's never coming. You're stuck in winter for your entire life. Like you're a winter guy. And I'm not a winter guy, so to speak. So maybe I'm just naturally drawn to color. Yeah, but I'll tell you what, though. I don't think that black and white Twilight Zone is something like that. You're not the target audience for that, I think. I think it's someone who has been in the hobby for a long time, played a ton of Twilight Zone, maybe had some of that, like had it two or three times, right? And all of a sudden they're like, I need something different, but I really love Twilight Zone. They're like, holy crap, look at this one. Yeah, that's a good point. It is the Twilight Zone, man. The whole thing is black and white. And it's funny. It's interesting because you see the receptiveness of the premium at Stern, and there are people that are torn. It's going over better than I anticipated just because it looks different than what I thought it was going to look like. And you've got people that are really appreciating the black and white. The conundrum then lies, and I kind of touched on this before prior to seeing this, is if you are normally in on a premium but you don't like the black and white and you want that color and you want that lower play field, you are going to an LE version, which is going to cost more money and you might not have available after they sell out. Or you're taking yourself to a pro, which, again, is full color but you missed the lower play field. So it's like it's a real interesting launch on the premium black and white model. That being said, I will eat crow a little bit because I was a little bit down on the black and white. And after seeing it, it is pretty beautiful. So I don't believe that going premium is a disservice to yourself versus going LE. That's a big part, too, because they did throw in color in the inserts and everything else. So it's not just a black and white. So it is a little different than just a pure black and white, white insert, white light game. Right. So normally you've got 500 LEs that come out, and that was what originally was announced on Munsters. Now, just recently, and I did confirm with Zach Sharp tonight, there was a buzz that another 100 LEs were going to be released into the public. So when I reached out to Zach and asked if he could comment, he was able to confirm that they will have another 100 LEs. And he simply followed up. He's like, listen, all things are subject to change. But because of demand from our distributors, we thought it was worth it to provide this, an extra 100 LEs to the buyers. Now, do you think it's because there's a lot of people that prefer the full-color package with the lower play field? Or do you think that this is such a hot title right now that LEs are surpassing their initial expectations? Scott, I'm going to let you start this off as you're the guest, unless you don't want to. It's a tough question, man. It really is because, to me, I'm attracted more to the black and white because it's weird. I like the weird stuff. Yeah, something different. It's totally different. Like the Ellie is a great machine. It's a pinball machine, though. It was weird that you showed up painted as a mime today. Yeah, I thought you guys were going to. Yeah, OK. I'm glad you decided to talk because that was going to make for a tough podcast. Oh, absolutely. Right.
    8:57
    So for me, you know, I like the weird stuff, but I can understand that people are probably not going to like that. Like as many people as, you know, I don't know. I just, I'm not sure. Yeah. It's a really interesting thing. I think we're all going to kind of learn from what happens here. I just, I want to see, but they're not going to release numbers. So there's no way we're going to be able to do any analysis on it. So true. Yeah. So what jumps out at me is they added the other hundred, right? Which kind of takes the opportunity for people to flip that machine a little further away, which I kind of like because that gives access to somebody that, that game is just within budget the opportunity of having you know being able to purchase it not for twelve thousand dollars so i kind of like that aspect of it granted i mean it takes away from it being limited but you know i would rather see more pinball out there and then you know we don't need you know twenty thousand dollar games yeah yeah do you think they're gonna eventually do uh like a full color premium though uh i would not be surprised if they did not offer that as an option and maybe they use that as a vault down the road after the license runs out but i mean i don't know i think it's a smart move to have a color option on the premium because i again if le's are sold out and you just don't want to go black and white for whatever reason uh and you don't want to lose the lower play field you're kind of stuck you're kind of stuck waiting for the next title and with that though but you know what so you like the pros right scott see my idea is to get a pro powder coat those ramps that neon green or whatever color that is and that thing would just look insane absolutely i like the pros though also because they just have uh like in in place of like drop targets they've got stand-up targets which make the game just ridiculously fast a little quicker yep yeah so like i've just always been attracted to the pro versions of stuff yeah right just i don't know i mean and plus you know for me i to me it's more i don't even know how to say it's not more pinball-y but it's like you know i don't know it's more just in your face It's more unique when it plays faster. Well, and the other thing, when I think about the pros, certain pros typically play pretty well, and that's normally what you see on route. I know the true version of the game is usually the premiums, and then there are things that are changed in order to kind of create a pro model. Right, that's something that's a little bit more affordable. I think for me, too, the big thing is the lower play field is probably even more important to me right now than the color is because if that lower play field comes across as a little gimmicky to me, or if it doesn't stay interesting to me over time, the pro is just the easiest decision that I could ever make because then I do have that full color without that play field. And I think the only thing that I'm – it's hard for me to explain, but if I'm playing pinball and then I go to a lower play field that has smaller pinballs, even though it's kind of a fully functioning play field, to me I fear that it will feel different and not feel like pinball to me. And then my game is – my flow is interrupted and I'm in that lower play field But, again, I don't know. I just have to play. My problem is I overthink this stuff, and I've literally woken up every single day since the reveal, the last two, three days, thinking that, oh, I would get a pro. Oh, I would get a premium. Oh, I'd get a pro. I'd get a premium. So you just got to play it. You know what? Guess what? If you've got either versions of it, you're obviously doing well enough in life that you're not too worried about where your next meal is coming from. Those are great problems to have. Well, and going back to the LEs, too, I think for somebody that goes – And I was talking to Jason Fowler from Slap Save Pinball Podcast today, and he brought up an interesting point, and I'm totally in agreement with him. If you're somebody that goes into purchasing pinball machines for an investment opportunity, which I don't necessarily agree that that's the best way to approach pinball purchases, especially new and boxed games. They just depreciate. Then I could see where your concern might lie that, hey, I bought this thinking there were going to be 500, 250 in the States, 250 that go overseas. and now you're giving another 100 that go into the general population, maybe 50 stay here, 50 go overseas. Does that really decrease the value from 500 to 600? I guess at some point maybe it does, but is it significant enough for anybody to really be in an uproar about? That I don't know because I'm not an LE buyer and I don't buy new and boxed pinball machines for investments, but I can kind of see both sides. Yeah, you know what? I still go back to the, you know, if one more LE gets out there that somebody's not spending 12 grand on, And here, think about it from this way. When Stern has these machines that they put out, the LEs, that people are flipping and making $12,000 on a $9,000 machine, that's money out of their pocket. Yeah, that is tough. It's like scalping tickets. Yeah, exactly. You're forced to pay appreciation, forced appreciation, because you've got somebody that buys it up. And that's somebody's business, too, if they want to do that. Not for me. You're not going to sell me an LE at an inflated cost because I'm not going to buy an LE most likely at MSRP. So before we started the podcast today, myself and Bill sat down and we finalized our Texas Pinball Festival trip, where we finalized our flights and our hotel. And for those of you that want to know where we're going to be at, we're at the Indigo Hotel in Texas because we didn't act fast enough to get into the embassy suites or anything that was across the street. So now we're like three blocks or four blocks away. So we'll have a nice walk. We'll be getting our steps in. I'll need a walk probably to get some fresh air on the way out of Texas Pinball Festival each and every single evening. Scott, you're going to TPF, right? Yeah, as soon as they announce the dates, you guys got to get the hotel. You can do the flight later, but the hotel has got to be booked. I didn't even think about it. We jumped on Expedia, and we did a little flight booking. Well, that was hard because we didn't know if we were going. And, you know, it kind of popped up last, not last minute, but, I mean, it was something that we talked about. And then, honestly, with the show being received positively, that's kind of what kicked it over the edge and us deciding to make a go of it. Yeah, for sure. For sure. So you guys have not been there before? No. What do we have to look forward to? It's awesome. It's a really huge show, man, and there's just like tons of people there.
    14:53
    It's just a big party. I'm just excited to be down there. I'm excited to be out of the state, to be honest with you. I'm just always here. Yeah. So to kind of make a trip and it's pinball oriented and to be able to kind of hook up with a bunch of people that we've, you know, we know the faces because social media. But to be able to have a conversation with people that we've talked to online and that sort of thing, I think is going to be fun. Texas pinball in March and, you know, I mean, versus Chicago in March. Yeah, that's true. Either way, we could literally sit on a sidewalk and we still have a better time than sitting up here in this weather. So I'll tell you what the best part is. you can go outside and there are food trucks. Oh see that I glad I didn pay for the continental breakfast at the Indigo Hotel which was a day because we can just hit a food truck I prefer a food truck The food trucks would be way more expensive than but hey they got deep everything Yes. Nice. Oh, my gosh. I don't know if you know this about me, but I've been known to consume a little bit of alcohol at pinball shows. I've never seen it. Oh, yeah. No, that's true. Never been a part. Well, you might not remember, but I had a couple moments at Shotgun Pillow Expo. It was within reason, though. It was a good time. Twippies. So you were nominated and won Twippies last year, right? Last year, yeah. What's your track record on Twippies? I know you're not in the voting this year because you're in between games. Yeah. So last year I won Best Sound and Call Outs. Yeah. And I also won Best Light Show. That's awesome. And you were in the running for Game of the Year. I know that for sure. I was, yeah. I was up against Dialed In for that. Yeah. It was really cool. So when you saw that, and then Twippies have totally changed. We covered this a little bit when Zach was on the show, but they're going from broadcasting this out of their basement to a live show at Texas Pinball Festival. And I'm hearing a lot of buzz now where people are considering dressing up and making a big red carpet event out of this. So I'm really curious to see how this actually pans out. I know a lot of work's going into it. That's a really good idea. I've got to bring a suit now. Right. I'm not going to bring a suit. I might just buy a suit in Texas and throw it out on the way home because I don't want to travel with anything. I'm bringing a tiny little purse, man. A couple pair of underwear, a couple pair of socks. I'll buy some shirts down there and throw that stuff on the way home. Nothing like traveling with a satchel. That's it. Whatever. I'm traveling light. I'm not going to be hung up in any baggage claim or nothing. Oh, yeah. No. See, I'm going to screw that all up for you. Just being honest now. Are you a heavy traveler? Yeah, I'm a princess. Oh, no. Yeah, dude. I'll have two bags. What about you? Are you bringing Sarah down? Yeah, Sarah will be with me. Cool. So that'll be fun. So you guys are traveling together? Are you flying or driving? I'm flying. Okay. Yeah, the drive is so long. I don't mind the drive usually, but I can't take the time off work, honestly. I need every vacation day I can spare because all these shows going on, I'm just like, all these people, I'm like, okay, I'll come to the show. Yeah. It really adds up a lot, and it's pretty crazy. Oh, yeah. Spooky will be down there, right? They'll have Alice Cooper. They'll have TNA, I'm assuming. Yeah, they'll have Alice Cooper. They'll have TNA, and then I believe that's it, really. We're just, they're just down there having fun this time. Yeah, just supporting the show. Yeah, absolutely. And hooking up with the community. So that's good. So this is kind of exciting for you then, because like you're literally, you're not down there super stressed. No. Not that you were stressed last year, but I imagine, you know, you had jobs and places to be and things you had to do and commitments to uphold. So you're just kind of, are you speaking or anything down there this year? I am not. Or are you just kind of taking it off? I am not. Wow, look at you. I'm just going down there and relaxing. So yeah, we're looking forward to TPF and we're happy to promote TPF. And I'm hoping that we have some crazy stories like we did at Expo when we come back. I'm going to be a little bit more behaved, I think, this year. We'll see. I think I scared Christopher Franchi at Expo. He saw a side of me that he's probably not used to seeing from most people. Why do you have to behave, though? I mean, the whole point of this thing is just to party and have a good time. Yeah, that's kind of what I'm doing. And the problem is, you know, if you get too out of control, then you've got to go back down for a court date.
    18:51
    Phil's talking about doing some hard time in Frisco. Yeah, you don't want that, man. No. Oh, come on. You know what? We're too old and mature for that sort of thing. I mean, for me, getting out of hand is not equivalent to me getting out of hand maybe in my 20s. I've doubled that age, and I've lessened the output of fun. I'll put it to you that way. No comment on that. Makes sense. We'll just, yeah. 50-50s. There we go. We'll see. In regards to TNA, it will make a presence down at TPF, and I'm hearing now that production's just about wrapped up for this initial run of TNAs, And you're like around 550, 560? 550, I think is where, yeah, actually that's 550 is where it's cut off. Okay. So yeah, it's done right now. Wow. I believe they're completely done building them. They had about six machines a week ago. I'm not sure where that stands now, but they have told me that they are selling. So I don't think there's even close to that left. What are your thoughts on that? I mean, because it's been a pretty wild ride for years with that game and to see it up on the line. And I know it's not coming off in finality, but I mean, just to see the line now shifting gears literally at Spooky and going over to Alice Cooper's Nightmare Castle. I mean, what are your thoughts? If you could wrap this up for now, this chapter of the TNA saga. Yeah, it's so like at a high level now that this is all kind of coming to a close. it's just it's kind of unreal to see it just come like to come to a stop and just completely switch over uh because like you know it i don't really even know how to describe it it's it's really kind of like a relief honestly yeah there's so much that can go wrong during production that it's constantly stressful there's always things happening where you know certain parts aren't the same as they were even though you ordered the same thing from the same vendor you You got something weird and something's wrong. Right. You know, you have to go through and correct a bunch of things. I just want to not have to deal with that anymore. And I want to just kind of relax and maybe do a couple of software updates and, you know, just be done. But seriously, 550? That's crazy. Well, when you started this, where were you? When you got with Charlie and decided to make this game, I mean, what were you hoping for as a number wise? I was hoping for 100, but I was okay with 50.
    21:13
    Nice. So, which is really strange because, you know, the reason that, you know, Spooky was okay with building this is because they can make 100 games or 50 games on something like this and be okay. Like, their whole thing is they can make low runs, and this was a little bit out of control for them. Like, at that point in time, they had the maximum number of games that they had sold was Rob Zombie at 300 games. yep you know and then this thing just kind of got out of control a little bit yeah yeah it was just very very unexpected so and you even you've you've outsold alice cooper too right because yeah they that was captive 500 yeah i actually tried to buy the 501st machine yeah so that i could like throw it in charlie's face and be like you know keep it in the box and be like hey this is the machine right here that made you like so like it made me unbeatable so were you able to Were you granted permission on 501? No, they wouldn't let me get it. See? Stern's making an extra $100, and Charlie won't make you an extra $1. What's going on with that? No, not for that. It's dirty. It's because he knows I was going to hold it over his head. Yeah, I got you. That's awesome, though. Part of it, I mean, are you a little bit, not to simplify it, but are you a little bit sad and disappointed that you're just not in that full run of production right now? Or is it just all thankfulness that it's a new chapter starting? No, I'm completely relieved, actually. There's no sadness whatsoever. It's cool to see it go through its whole life cycle. And then, you know, obviously I'm working on something new now. I need to switch gears and focus on that. But at the same time, I'm still focused on TNA doing software stuff, which is kind of I think a lot of people have told me it's been very unexpected. They're like, I thought you'd just, you know, be done and that's it.
    22:57
    There's been a hot topic lately on Pinside about, you know, coding and when is a game finished? and what is your approach to code? Will you ever really see TNA where you think it's all the way through and you won't have to code it anymore? Or do you think that that's your baby and something will always pop in and you'll always have room for an update on that pin? You know, I think if I keep updating it, it's going to just get full of garbage. There is a point where it does need to stop. And right now I'm just fixing little tiny things that bother me. yeah like someone reports a bug or something that i wasn't able to find i'm able to go in and just are people still finding bugs after just tiny little things yeah little nuances yeah little stupid stuff i would assume that most games if not all of them have a similar scenario where it's just you're never going to be able to fully bug proof a game that's correct yeah i mean even the games from the williams days yeah they have they have little bugs in them like that you know yep so as far as your experience and with tna again as it's kind of wrapping up the first run And what was your favorite aspect of it? Was it design? Was it programming? Was it testing? Probably not testing. No, testing's awful. It's terrible. Was it shipping, Scott? Did you like getting involved in the shipping of the games? I wasn't involved in that, which is even better. The best part about TNA was actually watching other people play it in its Whitewood format. Cool. So I get a lot of feedback and a lot of information from just staring at someone playing and watching what they do on the play field and watch what the machine does and how it acts and what their reaction is to it. I was paying a lot of attention when we brought this thing to show. When we had it at MGC, we had it at TPF and all those other shows. I was watching a lot of people's reactions and seeing what they liked and what they didn't like, and they didn't even have to tell me. you could just kind of tell if they were a little frustrated by something, and I'm like, okay, I need to probably back that down a little bit or something.
    24:59
    But that, honestly, was the best part. I didn't really like coding it because it's a lot of work. Yeah, I mean, I don't think people can really wrap their heads around what it takes to program a machine. It's a full-time job by one or more people. Yep. And I, unfortunately, had to do it all myself, which was pretty rough. So what would you rather do, code or build the entire machine?
    25:23
    None, maybe. Okay. Right. Just asking. No, I mean, I don't mind putting together machines. But writing the music, you had to love doing that. I know you're so... I love writing music, but when you're actually writing music on a timeline, it's very, very difficult. Yeah, I can see that. Yeah, it really is a very, very frustrating process if you say, like, hey... Because, I mean, I made a goal for myself that when we released the 1.0 version of that game, it was going to have all of the music in it and it was going to be done and so what i did was i started i was getting behind and i started rushing through the music a little bit yeah i ended up um just making game loops at first to just get the game out the door with all the music in it and then from there once stuff settled down a little bit i was able to go back and remaster all the music um create the actual songs the real songs that someone could listen to you know with intros and outros uh for the album and then put that album out um and then from there once that album went out i have the cassette tape on it went on cassette it went on in the studio here it was pretty great um but then i took that album and redid the game loops based on the album audio and there was a big update like 1.2 i think yep had the remastered music in it and that's when people said that i apparently i took away the beep and they got mad at me and oh see people You can't make all the people happy all the time, man. I didn't take it away. Even Scott Denisey was taking it away. Oh, you didn't take it away? I didn't take it away. No, I just – what I did was I changed the waveform. Okay. So it made it a little bit less ear-piercing and more musical. What happens to this Whitewood now? Because it's a part of pinball history, not just for the creation of a pinball machine, but, I mean, it's the first homebrewed to kind of cross the line and go into, like, mass production. from somebody that you were an amateur at that point. So what happens to this whitewood? Is it something that you keep? Does it go in a museum? Do you throw it on eBay? Do you try to find some value? I have no idea. I think short term right now, Jack Danger's actually got it in his studio right now, and he's been streaming it because it's pretty cool to be able to do that.
    27:33
    Next, it's going to be picked up from Jack Danger's, and it's coming here, actually. Oh, it is coming here. It is. See? I don't know if you want me to tell your listeners that yet, if you can edit that out. That's cool. Well, and it was funny because we just started ordering the final parts of our rig for streaming because we want to offer that as extra content. And I know we had talked about in the past having the Whitewood here and having you here and streaming that because, I mean, that's always fun. You know, our streaming computer came today, and I fired it up, and I was putting some software on it, and it literally died within 10 minutes. and I had to go back onto the Amazon.com, and it's getting returned, so I have to order something else. So I was joking with Bill. I hope that's not an omen for things to come with the streaming, but we want to have that up and running here within the next couple weeks, and that'll just be kind of fun. We've got some fun ideas for that. So after it makes its two-year stay here, where does it go? What are you going to do with it? I have no idea. I mean, would Spooky want to retain that for their pinball company history? Is that something you'd like to keep? It kind of belongs to me, and I think I would want to keep that because, again, I don't know if a lot of people know this, but I'm actually not a spooky employee. No, I know. Yeah, so I'm a contractor who made a game. I do contract engineering for them. I do contract design for them. My full-time job is Pinball Life. I'm the engineer over at Pinball Life. Shout out to Pinball Life. And Terry, Margaret. Shameless plug. Mike Fox. Love him, Fox. Everyone loves Mike Fox. What's that? Everyone loves Mike Fox, man. I love Mike Fox. You know, he's really famous, man. He reproduced the Laserdisc for, oh, man, what game is that? He's going to kill me now. He's going to hear this and me not knowing the name of the game. A Laserdisc game? Yeah, one of the Laserdisc games. Like a Dragon's Lair or something? That's it. Really? It's Dragon's Lair. He redid and remade those Laserdiscs, and he was selling those to the arcade people. So he's running bootlegs? It's not bootleg. It's licensed. Really? I didn't know that. He did it totally legit. When did he do that? I don't remember. You should probably get him on here and talk because it's ridiculous. Yeah, that's actually a pretty interesting story. I didn't know that he had done that. I've known Mike for a while. That never came up that he was – Well, he doesn't talk about it unless you call him out on it and he gets all kind of red-faced.
    29:53
    Interesting. Mike is a great guy. He's awesome. Mike is a great guy. Yeah. But anyway, yeah, so I think I was ranting about having a day job and being a contractor and stuff. But yeah, I actually have a day job and then do all the contract stuff for Charlie and the team over there. And you've got game number two that's coming along, right? It is. You're still working on that. Any idea when you think, and I know you can't really nail it down, but I mean, let me just be up front with you and ask you, and if you don't feel comfortable answering, that's fine. Do you think that we'll see part of this game at some point before the end of 2019? I really hope so. My goal is to have that shown before the end of 2019. But we want to make sure Alice Cooper is really far along. And Charlie wants to do this thing where he announces and shows a game and then says, oh, by the way, we've already been making them. Yeah, good. You can start buying them now, even though, you know, Charlie is probably going to get, you know, he'll probably only be able to make like 10, right? You know, it's a very low number, but it's still people are still going to have to do the weight. But at least you've got an announcement and unboxing videos within a couple of weeks of each other. That'd be pretty awesome. That's what he really wants to do that. I don know how that going to work exactly because you know people are just chomping at the bit to see stuff So it a balancing act I don know I think we learning now that to your point Scott you don want to reveal anything too early because then it kind of loses steam if it takes too long to actually have it come out into the public. So it makes perfect sense. I mean, if your game doesn't even see the light of day until early 2020, I mean, who cares? As long as it comes out and it stays hot and people are able to get it within a reasonable amount of time to reveal, I mean, that makes most sense to me. I get it. Absolutely. Can't be mad at that decision. No. So, well, you know, congratulations to you and Charlie and KT and Spooky Family, everybody over there. Yeah, it's very remarkable. It's a really, really cool story.
    31:51
    And there's actually a Blu-ray that you can buy, right, that talks about kind of the story of spooky pinball. Is TNA featured in that at all? No, that was way before TNA. That was way before, right? Absolutely. Was it Things That Go Bump in the Night or something like that, right? Yeah. Yeah, okay, so TNA's not there. So maybe somebody gets out and does a documentary on this TNA. Has anybody approached you on that? Nope, none. Well, myself and Bill might have to talk to you about that. We're bringing cops down to Frisco, Texas with us. All right. We'll have Mike Fox burn up the DVDs for us. Exactly. From Pinball Life, and we're good to go. Nice. So congratulations, man. Yeah, thank you so much, guys. Congratulations. Thank you, thank you. So I had a pretty cool experience recently, and I reached out to Josh Kugler over at American Pinball. Yep. Coded Houdini, and he's working on Oktoberfest right now. And the reason I'm bringing this up is because, you know, for yourself, you were talking about how people shared things that had happened in code and you're able to make adjustments and find out bugs or find bugs, troubleshoot and make changes. Now, when I reached out to Josh, it wasn't because of something that I was reporting on bug, but I had this like this idea that popped into my head that I thought would be really, really cool in Oktoberfest. So I pinged Josh, and I'm like, hey, man, you may have considered this already, or you may not have, but this kind of hit me a couple days ago, and I wanted to share it with you. And I didn't expect to hear anything back. But to Josh's credit, like, he got right back to me the same day, and he was like, yeah. He's like, that is an interesting idea, and I'm working on something right now that might lend itself well to the idea that you gave me. So, I mean, that was pretty cool to have somebody that's working on a machine, you know, take something that you offered and give it some serious consideration. and it'd be super fun to see if it was implemented in a machine down the road. So, you know, you programmers are not afraid to take advice or fix something. Well, you can't be. I mean, if you're just like, no, I'm doing it my way, whatever, screw you. Yeah. That's not the way to do it. You guys ready for another edition of Drain It or Save It? Absolutely. Oh, yeah.
    33:48
    It's time for this week's edition of Drain It or Save It. Scott, you know how it works. Drain it or save it. I get the gist. I'm going to let the listeners know because this is like the second time we've run this segment. And with drain it or save it, I'm going to bring up three topics to both Bill and Scott. They're going to have approximately 60 seconds to tell me why they would like or they approve of the product or they approve of the idea or they approve of the statement in which they would save it. Or if they just were against something, they would drain it. So it's pretty simple. You get 60 seconds. Use all 60. Use 10 seconds. It's totally up to you. You guys ready? We always go to the guest first. All right. And in this case, Scott, it would be you. So the first item on the docket here for Drain It or Save It, remakes. And that comes from Brian Cosner. He had this idea.
    34:38
    You've got Medieval Madness, Attack from Mars, and Monster Bash remakes that have hit the market. Scott, Drain It or Save It remakes. Go. Oh, I'm totally saving it, man. So the reason for that is because, you know, these games were so popular, like after the fact, after they were completely done being run, and the pinball market has expanded, it's such a great idea to have the ability to go and actually buy a brand new one of a Medieval Madness, right? That sold like crazy. I think they sold, what, like a thousand immediately when they announced it. You know, and it can only get better from there. The only concerns that I have is, you know, it's not an exact replica, so it has a different board set in it, which could be an issue further down the road unless people start learning how to repair these types. But, you know, I think that's just a small thing. But you're going to save it. Remakes. I'm saving it. Yeah, I like it. Bad boy Bill, train it or save it. Remakes. Go. Save it from a different perspective. I like the fact that not every single one of these games that were $12,000, $5,000, $15,000 are just exclusive to the people that can afford it. I like the fact that an average person can buy a Monster Bash, put it in their basement, play it, and not have to spend $10,000. So, you know, it makes pinball more accessible to those higher-end titles from a few years ago. Excellent point. You ready for number two on the docket? Yep. And we're going to go to you this time, Bill. You ready? Oh, what happened to the guests first? for the guest did go first all right go ahead we're alternating bottom of the first inning here uh bill webb playfield protectors and this topic comes in from dave falgren what up dave big dave uh drain it or save it playfield protectors go i would i'm kind of torn on the fence just because of how different it plays but i will say save it um i think they do protect the playfield but at the same token if you're only playing them friday and saturday nights i don't think they're warranted like they would be on location.
    36:40
    So, I mean, I'll save it just to preserve pinball, but that's about the extent of it. Scott Denisey, playfield protectors. Drain it or save it. To the people that make the playfield protectors, I love you, but I'm draining the crap out of this one. Oh, hey.
    36:56
    Seriously, I mean, it's great that someone's making them, but for me personally, I think there is no possible way that you're going to wear through a playfield in your home nowadays. And even if you have a game on location without the protector on it, it holds up really well. All of these playfields that are being made now have clear coat on them, which is way more than they did back in the day. And there's just no way. And there's a lot of pinball machines out there. The ones on location, it's okay if they start getting messed up. I mean, I saw an Iron Maiden. Not an Iron Maiden. Iron Man, actually, on location. It was completely just destroyed. Same difference. It's just destroyed. No, it's a completely different game. Right, I know. It's like totally destroyed down to the wood. And guess what? I threw some quarters in it because it's awesome. And it played great. Yeah, it'll play. Yeah, it's awesome. It might just not look as pretty. Yeah, it doesn't have to look pretty, guys. See, a couple of years ago, I saw... Oh, whoa, whoa, whoa. No, no, no. Jump in here. No, no, no, no, no. We can revisit these topics, but we've got to get through this segment, right? All right. So keep that. We're going to go to the last item here, which is something that popped into my head for drain it or save it. We'll go back to Scott. And that is anti-glare glass. And Jersey Jack Pinball has their Invisiglass PDI glass, which comes in from Germany. And then Stern right now has the HD glass. Scott, drain it or save it? Totally save it. So the glass is super expensive, right? And they always say, like, oh, don't clean it with certain things and don't touch it and don't do this. Yeah, like do all this stuff. And I'll tell you what, man, I think people are blowing that out of proportion. It's just all that is is museum glass, which is a total common thing, which is fine. But we have had – Sounds a little tricky. No, museum glass is a thing. I don't even know what that is. It's an actual thing. Yeah, you put it over, like, oil paintings or something. Okay, okay. Yeah, or whatever, not oil paintings. I don't know, whatever. Whatever they use in museums. Fancy art. Let's go there. I'll tell you what, we've had a piece of, I forgot what brand it was, I don't know. We've had a piece of the Invisiglass. Jersey Jack, you guys have Invisiglass, right? It must be. We've had a piece, though, on one of the games at Pinball Life for years now, and we've just been treating it like normal glass, taking it out, setting it over there, touching it, spraying it with whatever cleaner we got. And it's perfectly fine. Wow. Absolutely perfectly fine. So you don't need the preventive maintenance necessarily for the Invisiglass. I don't think so, but you know what? Don't hold me accountable if someone breaks their glass. But I'm just telling you, people treat it... Thoughts expressed by Scott D'Amesi here, not necessarily those of Pinball Life. Yeah, exactly. Don't, you know, follow the instructions so you don't accidentally break something, but I got to tell you what, it's pretty cool, and I think it's more durable than people think it is. Bill Webb, HD glass, Invisiglass, PDI glass, go! I would have to save it. I think it does add another layer of depth to the game. As you can see, everything a lot better. I'd have to save that. All right. Well, so, I mean, everybody, we're saving everything except Scott is dumping out the playfield protectors. Yeah, they just don't play right. And you're going to get dirt underneath there, and you're going to grind that dirt into the paint, and it's just going to rip the clear, and it's going to wreck your playfield anyway. Just play it. I'm going to jump back in here now. So I saw Metallica on location that was played real, real hard, and the playfield was dirty, nasty, just beat to snot. You know that dirt protects the playfield, right? Yeah. I had a getaway that was covered in grime, and it came out beautiful. That said, I play all my pins with the glass off for the first two years just to get that layer of dirt on there. See, when I'm building a game and I'm building a cabinet, what I like to do is I actually take the populated playfield that I'm about to put in it, leave it in the garage with all that sawdust so it gives it a nice protective layer. And then clear over it. And then clear over it so you're definitely good to go. With the sawdust. But, yeah, and honestly, even that playfield looked like it would clean up. So I get your point on that one. So in my quick takes on this, remakes, I definitely save those. I think it gives, to your points, excellent opportunity for people to own machines they normally wouldn't be able to. And if you're getting into pinball for the investment, you might be surprised if a remake hits and lands on shore. Playfield protectors, I am going to save playfield protectors, and I'll tell you why. I've never actually played on a game that had a playfield protector, but for me, I'm a picky son of a bitch when it comes to playfields. And I like to protect everything that I can. I've never thrown one on, but I cliffy everything. I shooter lane protect everything. And just because a game plays well, if it aesthetically isn't completely pleasing to me, I get sad. So that's why I'm going to say play field protectors. And then the anti-glare glass, I'm totally going to save that too because depending on your setup and where you are and lights overhead, I like to play pinball in the dark. And whether it's dark or light, that's where – I've definitely seen the difference installing Invisiglass or PDI glass or HD glass on pins. that I've owned, and I've had people come over where they did not know there was glass on the machine, and there actually was. So I'm going to save all three of those topics, gentlemen. All right. And you know what's something funny that's just looking back at how I responded versus how you guys responded to this? I realized that all of my answers were very engineering-focused, which is really hilarious. Oh, that's cool, though. That's – I like it. I just noticed that. That's what we're trying to bring out out of you, Scott, the engineer aspect of things. All different perspectives, though. Absolutely. But very similar, just different takes on it. Yeah, definitely. All right. So we're going to introduce another segment here. As 2019 hits, Special Elite Pinball Podcast is going balls-to-the-wall crazy with some new stuff, and it's called a pinball mystery. And in pinball mystery, each one of us have an opportunity to discuss something that happened that was kind of puzzling and you didn't quite understand. Now, I'm going to kick this one off this week, and we can pass it around the room as we go into different weeks. And if you guys have anything you want to add this week, that's great. But for me to kick off pinball mystery, I wanted to share a quick, something that had happened to me, that confused the hell out of me. And that was, so I had a Golden T 2018 pedestal unit. Now, and the reason, don't click off on the podcast right now, this does have a pinball tie-in. And I decided that I was going to list it for sale. Now, I listed the Golden T pedestal in the Golden T user group on Facebook, right? Or the Golden T for sale group on Facebook. In my listing, I explained it was HUO and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. But at the end, I said, you know, cash or would consider trades towards pinball, plus or minus cash. Not thinking anything of it. I was a little disappointed and confused on pinball people that were on this thread in the golden tea for sale group, right? That almost made me feel like I was an idiot for saying that I would trade for a pinball machine. because in their eyes, you would be going backwards trading a pinball for an arcade machine. And it almost felt, and I can't speak for all of them, but it almost felt that one or two of them almost felt in elite status because they were pinball collectors and that they had to kind of lower themselves down to consider arcade. And the reason that it was puzzling to me were for two reasons. One, they were in an arcade forum group, right? So obviously they have interest. So it's like, you know, you can't yell at somebody for, you know, going to a gentleman's club while you're in the gentleman's club. That doesn't make any sense. It was just weird. And then secondly, I think it's important as a pinball collector and as a pinball fan, I never want to come off as being pompous or better than anybody that collects arcade, because I know for a fact there are pinball collectors that collect arcades and vice versa. So that was a little bit puzzling to me and it was a little bit disappointing. and maybe it was just the situation that was confusing. But that was my pinball mystery for this week. Just didn't really quite get it. I don't know if you guys have experienced anything like that. I have, actually. And it wasn't quite that. It was the opposite, and it was something I did. So I actually have in my basement, I just acquired four Rush the Rock driving games. Oh, sit-down drivers. Those are fun, yeah. They take up a lot of space. I traded a pinball machine for four of those. Oh, snap. Did you really? Yeah. That's awesome. Dude, you just brought my whole thing full circle. Cheers, man. That was killer. Because they said literally no one's ever going to trade a pinball machine for an arcade. No one's ever going to do it. Yeah, that was actually my mystery story that I was going to tell you. Are you serious? I'm going to drag on to the back of that. Oh, that is cool. Could you mind me asking what you traded? Yeah, it was my space station. Oh, and you got four sit-down drivers? Yeah. Yeah, see, that's cool, man. And he brought me a bunch of extra parts, too. So it was actually delivered to my house, and they helped me move them in the house. See, and that's killer. When you get four linked sit-down drivers. Oh, they're real linked. It is super, super fun. See, I've got to go to the Sleepy Nut Tavern over at Scott's house and jump on the sit-down drivers. Yeah, let's do it. We messed up by doing a podcast here today. I know. We're in our studio. I don't know, man. All right, let's do that. We'll just redo. All right, let's go. All right, let's rerecord this. No problem. Bill, you have any situations like that where you had like a pinball elitists that made you feel a little bit crummy? or are you a pinball elitist bill no you know what i mean i think there's a place for both i mean it does seem that there are those people that the two shall never intertwine um but you know it's i i haven't had a whole lot of experience with it but i can definitely see you know i mean here it's like rock music some people love nickelback and then you got people that are like nickelback's not rock they're posers blah blah blah you know right it would be like Like somebody being an alternative rock fan and then jumping in to the country music forum, belittling and berating people for listening to country music while they're a member of the country music forum. Like it just didn't – I didn't get it. Yeah. I didn't get it. Did you just say people like Nickelback? I'm confused. Exactly Case in point Oh no Case in point That okay It a Canadian band band man I dig it I like a little Nickelback and Three Doors Down But I a 90s rock alternative guy so I will jam to that all day long Oh, yeah. I like the 90s alternative. What are you guys listening to on Pandora or Spotify right now?
    47:05
    What's your genre? That's a tough one. I think you like crazy-ass electronica music. That's most of it, yeah. Like 80s electronica. I do have a really good 90s alternative radio station that I listen to. I love it. And I also have a really cheap 80s station. Perfect. That's just amazing. And then for those times where I want to be reminded of when I was even a younger kid, I've got this classic rock stuff that my dad used to make me listen to. Driving in the car with him and stuff? Yeah. You got like Hall & Oates coming on for me. I was like Gloria Estefan and Miami Sound Machine driving in the car. Phil Collins. Some John Ciccata. Driving in the car with my... No, John Ciccata. I was a little after, but... I was like a grown man for John Ciccata. What are you listening to, Bill? Well, I'm all over the place. You'll literally, our heads will explode if you were to listen to Bill. I went from Pat Benatar, Invincible, on the way over here to Notorious B.I.G. So we're all over the place. Yeah, you are all over the place. That's why rides in the car with Bill are always fun times. I love when people say, they're like, what kind of music do you listen to? And if I ask somebody, they're like, oh, I listen to everything. like no exclusions i'm like oh yeah what about uh you know drum and bass music and they're like no no electronic music like no no that's awful like but you just said just said everything i guess it's not music to people it's easy you're right it's easier to say what you're what you're not listening to for you two guys because you guys are it is actually yeah yeah i hate country music i don't i mean a lot of people love country music i just i don't like it i used to hate country music until i moved to florida uh out of high school for a few years and every job i was at it was country music and I really started liking it and then I moved back to Illinois and I just was ridiculed for knowing about country music well you shouldn't ridicule people for what they listen to except if it's Nickelback but you know hey that's alright we'll take the criticism it's all about music it's all good times and now we transition to episode 34 the first edition of Bill's Cabin at Corner Bill what's going on with the Whirlwind build, buddy. All right. So the cabinet is still at the painter's. He had a couple extra cars come in last week, so he couldn't jump on the clear coating of the play field or the cabinet. So he's hoping to do that this week. Polish and buff beginning of next week and hopefully going to have it back middle of next week. But right now I'm assembling the coin door and all the parts that have been powder coated. Yep. So we're making headway there. Are we going to see an update on Facebook pretty soon with some additional picks, or how's that going to work out? I was hoping to get some today of the cabinet in the spray booth, and I called my painter. I'm like, hey, do I need some pictures? And he's like, yeah, I can't help you there. It's delayed. Yeah, but I got some pictures we'll be uploading soon, though. Are you working on anything right now, Scott, other than game number two? You got any side projects you're cranking out?
    49:55
    Because you're a pretty ingenuitive guy. I can't imagine you're only working on a mass-produced pinball machine. uh right now i'm actually just uh i'm actually not working on any of my own machines at the moment um i am cutting play fields for friends and stuff and working on other games um you know helping out with just random engineering stuff for people but you know nothing uh nothing crazy i'm not doing a restoration i do have though an amazing thing happening for me which i don't know if i want to say out loud on the uh thing but i'm gonna anyway oh hey so hold on someone's gonna be mad at me on a very special edition yeah of the special win lit pinball podcast yeah someone's gonna be really mad at me like but i'm hoping he doesn't listen to the podcast oh scott first of all um everybody listens everyone listens all right i'm screwed all for you to hope that somebody didn't all too late you've offended me all three to four people exactly all 9500 listeners all right so i've got this beautiful dr dude playfield and i have a dr dude and it's in really good shape awesome cabinet and everything and you love that game right oh i love it yeah so the playfield's just a little bit kind of grody on it it's like it you know inserts are raised it's just it's just old it's worn out you know um still plays fine but you know it's just kind of grody so i got this you could use the playfield protector probably i probably uh maybe if it was new no i'm just kidding okay now all right but uh so i'm actually sending that whole game off to Minnesota to this old retired guy's house. I know who that is. And someone is going to play field swap it for me. Yeah, you were talking about that. Yeah. When we were on last time, I remember you saying that. Yeah, it's pretty great. So I'm going to have... Now, does he know that he's doing that? He does. Do you want to mention who that is? Well, I'm going to have in my possession one day a Brian Kelly restored Dr. Dude. Probably the only one in existence. Well, he already, he did one before. Did he really? And that's actually where that play field came from. Get out of town. I bought it off of his old customer because he had this really nice Dr. Dude, brought it to Brian Kelly for a restoration. Brian was like – he had a new old stock play field for it. Yeah. Brian's like, are you sure you want to pull this play field out? He goes, this one's like perfect. Wow, that's cool. No, I got a new old stock one. Pull that one out. Just swap it. Brian's like, well, what about this other play field? and then so i i saw it at his house and i'm like i need that play field right now how much money like yeah well that's yeah how did the negotiating go there yeah and well i mean it just paid my money brian yeah it went you guys are buddies yeah i'm sure he took care well it was the it was the customer can i oh it wasn't his okay yeah i got you yeah yeah so that's i had to negotiate with someone i didn't know let me interject for a second because for those of you that are listening to the podcast and you hear brian brian kelly who is brian kelly i mean brian kelly is is a renowned pinball restorer that's been restoring pinball machines for years. And if you're not in the community of restoration, or maybe you're not a member of Pinside where you can see some of these restorations, Brian had done it better, or at least as great as anybody else has ever done pinball restorations. And just recently, over the last few months, he just kind of decided to kind of take a step back and really no longer do pinball restorations. So you will essentially have the last play field swap from a Brian Kelly. Yeah, we'll see. I don't know. I mean, he's probably going to be mad at me. He's probably mad at me right now, actually, while you guys are listening to this. Well, the great thing with Brian is he does not listen to any pinball podcast. That's awesome. Unless there's somebody that he knows that's going on. So if we doctor up the description and we make you, who can he be? Just change the spelling of my last name. He'll get confused. No, you won't get that confused. Steve Tenisi. Steve Tenisi, right? Yeah, maker of Pitch Perfect. Yeah, exactly.
    53:49
    Perfect. There you go. Yeah, that's good. So, yeah, Brian will be listening, and you know what? I can't wait to see the updates on Facebook on Dr. Dude. Yeah, I hope he does the updates on it because it's pretty cool. And, I mean, he's going to be mad at me because he said, like, he's done. He's not doing this anymore, but he's, like, making a special exception, I guess, because he wants to do this one for me. Well, it's because he needs something from you, more than likely. I don't know what that is yet, though. It's got the ulterior motive. I'm absolutely sure. No, probably not. But he is a great guy, though. He's awesome. Yeah. Brian grows on you, like literally. Yeah. He's a good guy. All right. We're going to look forward to the Brian Kelly restoration.
    54:26
    Before we end episode number 34, I did want to – we typically don't do like shout-out segments. But I wanted to give a special shout-out, and that was to Sarah and Christian Line, who are Mrs. Pin and Dr. Pin in the pinball community. And Mrs. Pin, who's Sarah, she's got a podcast. And Christian contributes to that podcast, and that's her husband. Now, during the wintertime, Pinside, there was a user that ran a Pinside Secret Santa. And I was assigned to Mrs. Pin. So I had some fun with it. As somebody that listens to her podcast, I just kind of sent her some podcast gear in good faith and saying, hey, at some point, check some of this stuff out and see how it goes. Well, I get this package on my doorstep two days ago, and I didn't really know what was going on. And it was from Pennsylvania, and I opened it up, and it was like a Mrs. Pin and Dr. Pin thank you package, which was awesome for two reasons. One, I was not expecting any of the contents. And number two, the thank you package was better than the initial gift that I had given them. So it was a win-win. But, I mean, just to – one, guys, thank you so, so much, and I can't wait to hook up with you guys at TPF and sit down and have some drinks. I think they're drinking the gin these days, the gin and juice.
    55:45
    But, I mean, the care package, I opened it up, and it had wrapping paper, and I noticed like first thing – and I'll wrap this up in a minute, but I wanted to give it a shout-out. I mean, you had some Mrs. Pin swag, but you literally had some nice pins. You had some stickers. You had a card that she had written. And I noticed there were like T-shirts in there, and they were tightly wound up. And I'm like, who doesn't like pinball T-shirts? So I opened these T-shirts, and there were pinball T-shirts and beer T-shirts. And inside the T-shirts, there were bottles of bourbon. And it was the craziest thing I ever unwrapped. There was Johnny Walker blue label in there. and like i've i ordered johnny walker blue label at chicagoland expo for myself and uh your friend mike yep and our other friend steve we were going to do shots well they ran out of johnny walker blue there was only one or two and i i think i either gave it to steve or mike so i anyways long story short i had to get the mckellen 18 which wasn't horrible but so now i've got johnny walker blue label in here um i was floored there were like four shirts in there uh two of them were from a local brewery out in um in pennsylvania where they're from and anyways guys craziest package i ever got and i did not even realize you could ship that kind of alcohol through the postal service so that was i don't know if you can you can't okay maybe i'll edit that out it's like yeah let me give the return address for the postal inspector maybe that went ups but But anyways, guys, thank you so very much. That really made my week, and it'll help me practice building my tolerance for TPF. Absolutely. I love those guys, too. They're great. Yeah, you've had pretty good experiences with them, too. Absolutely. Yeah, if they're listening right now. Hey, guys. Hey. Hi. Hopefully they are listening right now. I was waving. I know they're very fond of your wife, too. They are. They love each other. I think she was a WOMP. She was. Was it Zero Rose? She was on episode 50 of their- Episode 50. For those of you that don't know, WAMP is an acronym for Women of Mother F***ing Pinball. I will bleep the f***ing. Okay.
    57:55
    Because we don't say f*** on the podcast as much as some other people say f*** on the podcast. I've been really clean tonight, man. I don't think I said anything. Yeah, I know. I was wondering if there was something wrong. Are you okay? Oh, I'm fine. Did something traumatic happen on the way here? Everything's good. But anyway, shout out to Mrs. Pin, Dr. Pin, the Pin Kids, everybody out there. Good times. In closing, another thing I want to ask people to do, if you haven't already given them a listen, the Slap Save Pinball Podcast is something that we just started listening to. And that's Christopher Haper and Jason Fowler, and they are out of St. Louis area in Missouri. And we had an opportunity to sit down and have some beers with those guys. Or actually with Jason and his wife. They were both super awesome people. Very cool. And, again, it's always nice to have somebody that's passionate about pinball and knows what we do as far as contributing because they're doing the same thing. So that's Slap Save Pinball Podcast. Go check them out. It's a fast-moving show, like 30 minutes or less, and they don't mess around. And Chris doesn't have a filter.
    58:58
    Nice. And they've got great intro music. Yeah, right? You like that intro music. Every time I turn it on, it gets me in the Karate Kid theme. You got anything you want to talk about and plug before we sign off here, Scott? I think I'm good, man. Are you good? Yeah, we talked about a bunch of stuff. We talked about a lot today. We talked about Stern. We talked about Spooky. We talked about Playfield Protectors. We talked about alcohol and Mrs. Pin. We talked about Slap Safe Pinball Podcast. We got to talk a little about Terry because I picked up some whirlwind parts, and I forgot to mention this in my segment, so we're going to go back a little bit. But Terry hooking it up with a lot of parts, so working on putting those together too. So thanks, Terry, Pinball Life. Scott and Mike, you guys are awesome. You know, we're sponsorless right now. We should reach out to a Pinball Life and see if we can get a pin gulp once or twice a year. Dude, I bet you probably could if you – Do you know anybody over there, Scott?
    59:44
    No, but I can give you an email address of somebody. I like it. That works, man. I'll take it, whatever we can get. But, hey, guys, this was a fun Episode 34. Scott, thanks for coming in, man. No problem. Thank you for having me. Yeah, for sure, for sure. You're local, dude. I would love to have you come in and just shoot the pinball news with us on a regular basis if you're up for it. Absolutely. So that's good. Now, you can reach us pretty much anywhere these days. Or if you know of a place where we're not streaming this podcast, please let us know. I think I've covered everything that I can think of, whether it be Stitcher or TuneIn Radio or Google Play, SoundCloud, our webpage, our Facebook page. You can reach us by email at specialwhenlitpinballpodcast at gmail.com. You can go to facebook.com forward slash back slash SWL pinball. We're there. We're everywhere. So no excuse for you not to listen at this point. Like we're literally spamming you to listen to our podcast. Don't forget to vote for your Twippies. I don't know if we said that or not. Yeah, so let's close it up with the Twippies. We have not gone out and personally asked for a Twippy vote for our podcast. In all fairness, we started this in July. We're six months in. I think for us to be considered for a Twippy with some of the other podcasters that have been doing this a little bit longer would be more than an honor for us. And we encourage you to vote for your favorite pinball podcast. And if it is Special Winlet, thank you very much. But if it's not, that's totally okay, too. As long as we're in your rotation, we're perfectly happy with that. And we want to be the best show that we can be, right? Yep. It doesn't matter who you vote for as long as you vote. Right. Don't forget to take some time out of your day and vote for Special Winlet. No, I'm kidding.
    61:20
    You got anything else? No, no. I think Scott needs to give his email in case people want to reach out and contact him. Where can people contact you? Oh, geez. About what? Well, it depends. We need the customer service email for Pinball Life, and then we need the TNA email for free parts and code updates. Right, autographs, translights, and play fields. Oh, I got that one. Then we need the rumor line where people want to know about Game Number 2. Oh, actually, that's all one place. Oh. Yeah, it's a special when lit at pinballpodcast at gmail.com, actually. Right, we will forward those over to Scott. We'll filter them out.
    61:55
    Is there a place where anybody can hook up with you if they have a question? Yeah, if people want to contact me, my website is a really good way to do it. Just scottdenisey.com. There's a contact page. Just do a little for me thing. Go without. Goes right to me. Awesome, man. It's all good. Thanks for your time. Scott, thank you for ranking out. Yeah, thank you guys. For Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Yeah, you guys have a good morning, good afternoon, good evening. And don't forget to take some time out of your day to play some pinball so long, everybody.
    62:28
    you