All right, guys, welcome back to another episode of a pinball podcast. We are on episode 51, and I really do appreciate you guys being here today, whether you're listening from home, whether you're watching on YouTube, you're on the road, whatever it could be. Thank you guys so much for being here. And I do want to take a couple of minutes before I get into today's content, which will be about Led Zeppelin Ellie. I did get a chance to play it. We are going to discuss that. And I also got a chance to play Guns and Roses Ellie directly after that. They were in the same setting, home setting, so I got some time on it, and I have some thoughts and feelings on that, and I'm going to share my thoughts and feelings, I guess, on that in today's episode. But before I go ahead, I want to just take a second to thank everybody out there, because I understand that in the climate of today, you guys got so many choices to consume different content, and I do appreciate that you guys are taking time out of your day to consume this. It very much is just a passion project of mine to do this. It's definitely an outlet. And a day like today is a prime example of why I do that. I don't get too personal with you guys often, but today represents it's been over a decade now since my father passed away. And this happens to be the anniversary day of that, I guess, for lack of a better term. But things like this, it helps me just kind of center everything and kind of just bring out everything together for whether I don't want to say positive vibes or anything like that, But just something that I am passionate that I like to do on my own spare time. And I really enjoy doing in days like today. The fact that I am able to do this, that I can kind of turn this day around immediately. For me, it's that's a positive thing. Mentally, physically, spiritually, whatever you want to call it. I feel like that's a positive thing. And I want to thank you guys for being a part of that because I really do appreciate it. I want to give a shout out to a few people, you know, real quick, just in no particular order. I want to thank Zach for giving me different opportunities, whether it's giving me shout-outs on the Pinball Network, on his own podcast. Of course, you've got the Eclectic Gamers podcast with Tony and Din Din over there. I appreciate it. Jeff Teolas, Marty, they've had me on their podcast before. That I appreciate. Kaneda has had me on his podcast. I know he's shouted me out a few times. I appreciate that as well. Joel, he's done the same thing over on his podcast show. And I mean, there's probably many others that I'm missing right now, like Steven Bowden. He shared my content before on Fun With Bonus. I know Jeff over at This Week in Pinball, you know, Ray Day has as well. And I just want to thank everybody out there. And if I missed anybody, apologies, but I am thinking of all you guys and I really do truly appreciate it. So that being said, we're going to go ahead and move forward now. We're a couple of minutes into the podcast. Let's go ahead and get to the content at hand. and the content at hand for today. Now, I did go up to Wisconsin to play in a little bit of a pinball tournament for the Great Lakes Open, but I'm going to save that for the next podcast where I can kind of go through all my games that I played. So for the tournament players or players out there that are interested in tournaments, that's probably going to be the podcast for you as I'm going to be going through all my games, my thought process that I can remember, results, so on and so forth, because it was a lot of fun. but I did get to play a Led Zeppelin LE, and I did get to play a Guns N' Roses LE again right afterwards. Now, of course, if you're looking on YouTube and you see it's just an absolute mess behind me, it's because we're kind of remodeling everything right now, but for those scoring at home, I do have a Guns N' Roses Standard Edition behind me, and it does play quite differently than what the LE plays. So I got the opportunity to play it a little bit more, the LE version, and you know I got a chance to formulate some more thoughts but I was really excited because I got a chance to play Led Zeppelin LE and I've I have the pro and so I've gotten plenty of time on that a lot of time as a matter of fact over well over 150 200 games on it and so I feel like I finally got to basically get my full thoughts out there on it and I finally understand what's going on in every game completely I got a good idea of how the rule sets are going I got an idea of where the shots are supposed to be and how it's supposed to feel just because I've had the chance to play multiple titles now or multiple versions of this particular game on multiple pins. And so we're going to discuss that right now. Finally, I got it all out. We're ready to go. Now, one of the things we have to understand is that there's currently two trains of thoughts that go on right now when it deals with pinball. And those trains of thoughts are people that believe that either lights and music are the most important part of the game. They're out there. I mean, that's what we hear all the time about Guns N' Roses as an amazing light show. I've said the same thing, and it's absolutely true. It has awesome music. That's subjective. Whether you're a Guns N' Roses fan or not, sound to me is really good. I'm not a huge Guns N' Roses fan, but I know the music. It sounds great coming out of the pinball machine. And then the other train of thought is those that believe that play field layout and rules are the most important part of a pinball machine. And I happen to fall in that category. So understand anything that I talk about moving forward, that's where my priorities lie. Yours might be different. It might be completely different. And that is perfectly fine. That's why pinball is awesome. You can enjoy things and enjoy this hobby the way that you want to. But moving ahead, take the Twippy's results, for example. Excuse me there. And, you know, let's face facts. The majority of people who voted within the Twippies are the ones that are consuming the content online, right? I've met lots of people that are involved in pinball that I've met them out in public, and they have no idea any online award show exists. They have no idea. And sometimes a lot of them have no idea even online content exists. exist. And, you know, what I'm getting at is here is that the Twippy Awards and the Twippy Votes are a really good indicator with what the majority of the online pinball community feels. And I would say without a shadow of a doubt that the online pinball community is a small percentage of people in the hobby overall. It's almost like a niche within a niche within a niche. And we just, we're going to keep niching down, but that's essentially what it is. and that's not bad. I'm not saying that's a bad thing at all. I'm just saying, let's just understand that whenever we're coming up with these opinions and these thoughts and we're hearing what's going on, whether it's echo chamber or ecosystem, however you want to put it, you know, there's a lot of people that, that don't necessarily share the same opinions when you really look, I think it's the macro is what I'm trying to say. When you really, you know, zoom outwards and you kind of just see the hobby overall and you get to know the people that don't necessarily watch YouTube videos or listen to pinball podcasts or sit there and look at a pinball forum and type up their opinion or read through it. So, like I said before, I've owned the standard on Guns N' Roses and I've owned the pro, or Led Zeppelin. I played both LE versions and again I prioritize layout and rule set And a big reason for that is simply because I enjoy tournaments I enjoy playing pinball also You know, I can put on a headphone or a headset. I can listen to music. And I can go without hearing any call outs, without looking at the LCD screen. And I can be totally focused on what is happening within that play field. What's happening with the lights? What's happening with the shots? What indicators am I getting to start a mode, to start a multiball? to start multipliers. What do I need to do in a row to make happen what I want to happen is essentially what I'm saying. So when I got a chance to play Led Zeppelin, uh, Ellie, the game played like butter. I mean, it shot like a dream. It legitimately was probably one of the smoothest shooting games I've ever played. And that's the truth. And you know, some of that could be layout. Some of it could be the way that the owner had it set up, but it shot really nice. Every single shot, pretty much, I was able to backhand minus the right orbit and the left eject for the most part. Although you could technically do a rolling backhand, which essentially would be if you're trapped up on the left flipper, you could do like a quick little post pass without the intention of the ball going over to the right side. You're just making the ball go up the end lane and then come back down to the tip of your flipper, then just flip it up into the eject. You could do that as well, which is really nice to do. If you can pull it off, I highly recommend working on that skill, and it'll work wonders for you. You can do the same thing on Avengers Premium or LE as well for that scoop on the right-hand side. But other than that, the game shot like a dream. The left eject, it returned perfectly back to the left flipper every single time. It didn't hit off the top post. It didn't hit off the sling. And my pro does hit off the top post sometimes and the top of the sling, and it's kind of a nightmare because I would rather stay in control, and I wish that shots like that, you know, you want to stay in control because that's where your world tour, I said that right, right? And tour shots start, or any of your tour modes, and you want that shot to be able to return safely back to a flipper. That way you can proceed on with your gameplay. But as I said, left orbit, left ramp, right ramp, all could be backhanded, and I will tell you guys, my God, when you can backhand the right ramp on Led Zeppelin, Your fun factor on that game goes way up, way up, because then you're lighting your modes. Then you're getting your combo shots. You're also completing shots for your modes whenever you're in it, or you're making progress through any of your multiballs as well, or your ramps. And, you know, it's just, it's so much more fun when you can hit that shot from the right flipper and when it becomes accessible to be backhanded. Now, the center ramp obviously could be hit from any shot. I can say after spending time with the side ramp being there and not just that dead-end hermit target, it does add on a lot to the game, in my opinion, in the sense that it's fun hitting that shot on the fly. Now, it's still a really insanely difficult shot. That right flipper is way up there. It's probably, for me, is the most difficult shot I've encountered with pinball overall, just that one-time shot. It's just, I don't know. It's really difficult. Now, Joel, apparently from just another pinball podcast, apparently he just, he can hit that target at will. It's like he has a damn magnet at his hermit target. He can just hit it whenever. It's the damnedest thing. But I, because I'm a mere mortal, I can hit that shot maybe twice out of every ten attempts on the fly. Now, obviously, if I backhand it and that ball just kind of just trickles down to that flipper, I have a little bit easier time. but if it's on the fly, I have a really difficult time hitting that shot. But I can say with that side ramp there, it makes it so much more fun just seeing that ball in action, seeing it fly up and seeing it come around to my right flipper, being able to combo different shots. That was highly rewarding. Now, I did get a couple of rejects there, but it wasn't anything that was just crazy that I was just frustrated with. I mean, rejects happened, but it wasn't happening enough to where I was like, okay, the shot's broken. The shot felt good. When I could hit it, it felt good. When I didn't hit it, you know, it is what it is. It's pinball. I'm not going to be accurate all the time, and not everybody's going to be accurate all the time. The good news is, if you happen to be not accurate, at least you have those targets right there that you can help build up your multiplier. But at the same time, you know, people have thought that maybe that right flipper doesn't really matter too much. And yes, you can get away in your game without using it, but I will say it does have tons of uses in terms of your super modes, in terms of building up Icarus timer. I mean, it's a very important shot. Let's not get it twisted. It is a very important shot. Now, the other parts, that was a ton of fun on it, the spinner mech. Now, as of when I played it, the spinner mech had been replaced, and it was working at the time. I know that the owner of this pen, they have had issues with that spinner mech, as I think a lot of people have over the past few weeks. But I will say it was working really well. It was fun to rip. You know, the mech itself, it kind of feels slightly out of place. I really don't know how to describe it. It's just kind of weird seeing like this huge mech just rise out in the middle of the playfield to where the whole thing isn't necessarily a bash toy like the mech on Iron Man to where you have to be very precise with your shot that you're going to hit. Now, I will say the center ramp was accessible, which was really nice. That was really rewarding to have that middle mech up with the spinner. But yet, I was able to rip the center ramp during a solo. Now, you have to be very precise to do it. You have no room of error at all. If you miss a little bit to the right, it's definitely clanking off a post and it's going out of control. So some people might like that. Other people may love that. You may love a game to where it all of a sudden requires you to be very precise with your shots. Others, you may find it frustrating that all of a sudden there's this mech up. Now, there is code in the game that kind of prevents that mech from being in the way most parts, which I found more often than not, like I'm talking 95% of the time, that mech was not in the way, and that mech was actually a lot of fun to use. I know there was one mode in particular. I guess it was some type of frenzy mode to where I hit that spinner and I was just ripping, ripping, ripping, and I was getting 30, 40, 50 million points out of it. So that was a lot of fun. Having that ball stage on that magnet and having to hit it off, I like that as well. So I can kind of see the pluses to it. I know after playing it, I could actually do without that mech and just have the side ramp, and I would be happy. I would be happy with my game. I really would be. Now, the lights that were on there helped a lot. I did manage to get the expression lights on my Pro, and that helps as well. To me, it's a noticeable difference. And what really unique about these expression lights is that it makes the Playfield feel like its own ecosystem even more You know If you look at the Pro and you don have anything on the sides the first thought that comes to your head is that, okay, this feels a little bare. That was my first impression. Whenever I saw it online, that was my very first impression. I'm like, okay, this feels a little bit bare. But once you get to flipping, you start figuring out pretty quick, it's really not as bare as you think it is. it really isn't. Now, it's wide open, but that also allows for the game to go from 0 to 100 really quick when we talk about speed and we talk about making combo shots. And that just comes down to preference. Whether or not you're the type of player that you enjoy that type of game, or whether you're the type of player that doesn't mind a little bit of clunk here and there and doesn't mind a little bit of chaos when it comes to your multiball, which essentially is what Guns N' Roses becomes. Now, I'm not calling Guns N' Roses flunky. What I'm saying is that the layout is way different in the sense that it is not wide open. And because that play field is not wide open, you're going to end up hitting different shots or missing different shots and having that ball instantly be out of control nearly. Whether it's hitting off a post, whether it's missing the scoop, whether it's hitting that disc that's actually in front of the right ramp. And we're talking about Guns N' Roses right now. The other part that I actually like a lot better on Led Zeppelin compared to Guns N' Roses, and we're kind of getting into the comparisons now, that I enjoy the multiball functionality on Led Zeppelin much more than I do on Guns N' Roses. And obviously, Guns N' Roses is made to be very multiball heavy because you have your booster multiballs early on in order to boost up your score. You obviously, in order to get higher jackpots within your songs once you do start them is adding a ball instead of cashing out your jackpot. And you can also get different patches or patch combinations to where you can start getting your booster shots going even more or getting more multi-balls, which again, we're going to get into the weeds on the rule set with that. But that's essentially there to where you can have a lot of multiball action. All right, let me take a sip of green tea real quick. that's a lot of talking for me guys 17 minutes of talking let's go all right so you know it guns and roses obviously does have a lot of multiple but with led zeppelin the reason why that i enjoy the multi balls a lot better on that is simply because i feel like whenever i'm am building my shots up on led zeppelin that it's leading to some major cash outs whether it's building up the combo multipliers, which if you guys have been watching online, you have Carlos, and I believe his name's Matthew, that they've been battling it out all of a sudden, trying to get to 1,000x multiplier. And that's not the norm. That is not the norm at all. You can blow up the game. I've seen Colin MacAlpine blow it up for over 30 billion without getting over a 30x multiplier on Icarus, and it's pretty amazing stuff to watch. But what I'm getting at is the multiball on Led Zeppelin, I feel like I'm building up the stuff a lot more and I feel like I can actually cash it out a lot easier. And I also feel like I can control that multiball a lot easier as well. Whereas if I'm on Guns and Roses, I can trap up a little bit under certain circumstances if I have, again, the right patches or if I'm just generally making correct decisions. But more times than not, I'm basically playing Demolition Derby with my flippers and I'm turning it into a Michael Bay movie to where I'm just going nuts everywhere while the music's blaring. Now again, cool. It's badass. When you play it for the first time or the second time or third time, it's pretty badass. Now, the thing is, depending on what you prioritize, your fourth, fifth, and sixth experience on it, that's really what's going to determine that. And for me, having a game just blare lights and music in my face isn't really a priority for me. And that's why once I start getting more games in, it starts to get that tedious feeling for me, just as a player, for me. And that's not a diss on anybody. It is a technical marvel seeing the light show. It is awesome that they have as many assets as they have to that game. Obviously, Guns N' Roses has more assets than Led Zeppelin. That's obvious. Light show, obviously. Guns N' Roses light show is out of this world. Now, in a world, in a reality that Guns N' Roses does not exist, we would be hailing Led Zeppelin as being one of the best light shows in pinball history. But that just goes to show you how great Guns N' Roses is. Because Led Zeppelin's light show is above average. It's probably the third or second best light show around. At the very least, the fourth best. if you're taking Stranger Things or Avengers into consideration. But the light show on Led Zeppelin is excellent also. And it just depends on what you're prioritizing at that point in time. So for me, it starts to get a little tedious whenever I'm playing Guns N' Roses and I'm getting into those multi-balls over and over and over again. Then I'm having to make the decision, well, I've got to figure out what shot is lit. And oftentimes, I don't know what shot is lit because there's so many lights that are going off, and I have to look at the screen to figure out what I'm shooting. Well, I'm taking my eye off that. Meanwhile, balls are going out of control. I'm looking back down at my flippers, and I'm getting readjusted, and I'm having to figure out where to go from there. Now, oftentimes, a way that you can start controlling your multiball a little bit easier is if you have a ball save, it's simply letting it drain so you can clear the balls out to hit certain shots that you need to hit. On Guns N' Roses, I find myself having to do this often because if I have four, five, six balls or what feels like infinity balls in front of me, I have to make those decisions so I can actually hit my shots. Well, the problem is, as soon as they get automatically plunged back into the play field, they're basically trickling back down into the lower third of the play field where essentially 90% of the action is happening at that point in time. And that's where my frustration level starts to go up. Now, I will say that if I have two ball, right, if I'm only on a two ball multiball or even just a three ball multiball, my fun factor for Guns N' Roses goes way up. It goes way, way up just because I feel like I'm a little bit more under control. I feel like I can actually breathe a little bit. I can see what shots I'm supposed to make. It's a little bit easier to hit those shots. It's not as chaotic. it doesn't feel like I'm just mosh pitting over and over and over again. And I like that. I don't mind a little bit of chaos in my game. It's just when it's 45 straight minutes of chaos, it gets tough. It gets really tough. Now, if my games only last like five minutes, it's not as bad. Not as bad. But that's just kind of where I'm at on it. So I don't know. Maybe it's a code thing that I'm just not jiving with with Guns N' Roses. because again I don mind the shots I don think that the layout is on the level of an Elwynn layout but I still do think it a pretty good layout I really do And I'm excited to see where Eric's next layout goes, what he has in his pocket, what he's working on next. I am intrigued by that. And I have often wondered, would I like Guns N' Roses more if it happened to be a band that I'm a huge fan of, right? if it was something like ACDC. And honestly, I think I would. I think I would. I think if it was a theme that I was highly into, obviously my enjoyment of that particular game would probably go way up. So I will concede that it could be a little bit of theme factor that I'm not the biggest Guns N' Roses fan on the planet. You know, I'm just a very, very casual listener. I don't even think I'd even call myself a fan necessarily. But again, my priority whenever I play pinball is layout and rule set. Does the rule set match what I'm feeling on the layout? And for whatever reason, for me personally, I feel like I have a disconnect with what the rules are compared to what the layout is that I'm playing with on Guns N' Roses to where sometimes the flippers feel like they're not very powerful, but yet they feel like that they should be powerful because the song's just blaring, and I feel like I should be able to rip a bunch of jackpots, but yet I look up and my score might only be like 100,000. It's just, I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm wrong. Let me know down in the comments. If you guys love Guns N' Roses, let me know because I'm still just kind of lukewarm on it. Again, I still think it's a great theme for people to enjoy. I love the light show. Just the passion that was put into that game, you can tell. It's there. You can definitely tell. It is a great effort. So I don't want to take anything away from it. I don't want anybody to get it twisted that if my words seem lukewarm on it at best, that that means the game's dog crap. Because it's not. It's not. It's a solid game. It's a solid game and the proof is in the pudding with how many that they've sold, how many people are fans of the game, and how many people are raving about the game. My opinion is definitely minority, but I'm still I will keep working on it. I'll keep playing it. I'll keep trying to figure out different aspects of it. But overall, you know, when I played Led Zeppelin, guys, it's just maybe, you know, I identify with the music a little bit more, but there's just something about flowing shots and comboing shots and being able to hit, just build up my multiplier and be able to basically have an objective. Like, I feel like there's an actual objective to Led Zeppelin. And my objective is to get to Celebration Day, which, you know, I've done within 20 games. I got all the way through the game I beat the wizard mode I've done the wizard mode several times and the whole thing is just well put together on Led Zeppelin I want to get to the wizard modes on Guns N' Roses I find myself actively avoiding the wizard modes and cancelling them out and that could be just an indication of just how the game is overall that the music on there and the light shows are so cool that that's what we want to see whereas the wizard modes on Guns N' Roses it doesn't really feel like a wizard mode And, you know, it just doesn't, I have a disconnect with that as well. Whereas on Led Zeppelin, the wizard modes are really badass. They really are. With the mothership, with the world tour, with Celebration Day, that's pretty sweet. I mean, it's out there now. Sorry, spoilers. I wish I would have told you, but that's what it is. I mean, it's really awesome. You know, top of the charts. Love all those. I mean, they're well put together, and they should be, because Raymond Davidson is the one that's kind of spearheading that, and Tim Sexton also, and they know what they're doing, and they have an idea of what's fun for pinball players, and even if you're a casual player, I think it should appeal to even the casuals, because you can look at it, and you understand what you're supposed to do. You understand, such as whenever you're playing your modes, you know you need to hit this many shots, like this many spins, or you need to get this many pops. the modes make you explore the game it makes you explore the entire play field and you have all these different options too all these different combinations that you can go with is and that's what i really like that the game the game can be very linear in the sense that obviously whenever you're you're in a certain song only certain shots are going to come up at certain amounts of time but you can alter your experience according to what tour you want to bring in, according to how you want to bring in your Zep multiball, according to how you want to place your combos within that game, and when you want to start your Icarus multiplier. There's just, I don't know, for me as a player, as a pinball player, I just appreciate that so much more, because I feel like I know the objective. I feel like it makes sense, and that doesn't mean, like, whenever I play Guns and Roses, I understand the rule set. I got the rule set down like the back of my hand and I'm still just kind of left wanting a little bit, you know, like some of the shots are still fun to make the light show badass. I mean, I have my favorite songs I like to get into and just rock out on. And maybe that's the experience guys. Maybe that's what it is. You know, it could be me. It could be me. Maybe I'm just looking for a different experience on that game that I'm not going to get. And if I look at it from a very casual standpoint to where, you know, I might be just the type of player that will flip maybe five games a week. If that, I like just having something that looks pretty, that's sitting there in the corner, that whenever friends come over, that they're just rocking out and playing it, and that's how I want to enjoy pinball, that's probably the wheelhouse. That's probably where it's at with that game. And there's nothing wrong with that at all. Again, enjoy the games the way that you want to enjoy it. That's the way it is. That's just the way it is. And, you know, it's the same thought that, you know, you hear people all the time. And I know Kaneda said this, and he's right when he talks about Guns N' Roses with that being the, that's the toy. That's the entire thing. But I will say that's the way a lot of other pinball players feel. The ones that are on my side of the fence, that appreciate layout, that look at the rules, whenever you view pinball from that way, the whole game becomes a toy very fast. Because all of a sudden, in your mind, you don't see theme anymore. In your mind, you see shots. You see geometry. You see score. You see where a jackpot's going to be. You see where the multiball is. You see where the modes are. You see where a multiplier happens to be. and just this whole other world opens up in your brain and it all happens in real time and that in itself when you're able to do that it pretty much makes the majority of games out there highly enjoyable but that's all i got guys i really do appreciate you guys being here just like i talked about earlier and yeah leave a comment down below let me know what you guys think and i'll catch you guys on the next one later guys