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036: Pinball Fun for Everyone - All Skill Levels Welcome

Punk Rock Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·43m 11s·analyzed·Feb 23, 2026
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.032

TL;DR

PRPP proposes handicap system for pinball to level competition and retain newer players.

Summary

Stephanie and Mike from Punk Rock Pinball discuss strategies for keeping competitive pinball engaging for newer and less-skilled players. They cover alternative tournament formats (pin golf, Amazing Race, Price is Right, stall ball) and propose a handicapping system similar to golf/bowling—using player ratings to apply score multipliers, making it possible for less-skilled players to compete fairly against elite players. They explore how Match Play software could implement this feature and discuss why retention of newer players is critical to growing local scenes.

Key Claims

  • Pin golf format (objective-based, not score-based) improves retention because it eliminates waiting time and gives newer players a fair chance

    high confidence · Stephanie and Mike's direct experience running Cobb Classic and other local tournaments at PRPHQ

  • Newer players often drop out after a few tournaments because they consistently finish in lower third and don't see return on entry fees ($5-$10 repeatedly)

    high confidence · Stephanie citing conversation with Hilton (Madison pinball organizer) about scene boom/bust cycles

  • Match Play software already has player rating system (Wizard, Master, Expert, A, B, C, D tiers) with fewer than 700 Wizard/Master rated players nationally

    high confidence · Mike confirming he looked up Match Play ratings recently; Luke Sheehan confirmed as Master, Joe and CJ as Expert

  • A handicapping system could increase odds of winning for mid-tier players from ~0% to ~33% while maintaining competitive integrity

    medium confidence · Hypothetical calculation proposed by Stephanie/Mike based on golf/bowling handicap models; not yet tested

  • Stall ball format (unlimited players rotate on stall events) improves shot accuracy and is particularly good for beginners

    high confidence · Stephanie and Mike played stall ball at Joe and Shelly's house the night before podcast; learned it's a long-standing format there

  • Hilton (Madison organizer) uses randomized payout models (e.g., 7th-10th place get money instead of 1st-3rd) to prevent top players from capturing all prize pools

    medium confidence · Mike recounting conversation with Hilton; hasn't verified exact rules but confident in general practice

  • Top competitive pinball players (Raymond Davidson, Zach McCarthy, Andy, Zach Sharpe) win ~50/50 or better against mid-tier players; Mike estimates <2% personal chance against top 5 world players

    medium confidence · Mike's subjective assessment based on competitive experience; references Raymond Davidson crushing him on Star Wars Fall of the Empire

Notable Quotes

  • “It's not always easy being one of the newer players and growing your skills.”

    Stephanie @ early — Sets up the core problem the episode addresses: retention of new/mid-tier players in competitive pinball

  • “if you're routinely in the lower third of the field and it costs ten dollars to enter and your money's always going to these same few people, why am I doing this?”

    Stephanie @ mid — Articulates the economic/psychological barrier keeping newer players from returning to tournaments

  • “It's like hot potato.”

    Mike @ mid — Succinctly describes the stall ball format's mechanic and appeal to newer players

  • “So we're thinking, how cool would that be if it existed in pinball in a really cool way?”

    Mike @ late — Introduction of the handicapping system concept; frames it as aspirational/experimental

  • “You don't know until after the bonus on ball three, so the suspense and drama... it should be because she's having a good game and Raymond's doing good but like he scored a lot higher than that before.”

    Mike @ late — Describes the entertainment/drama value of the proposed 'muck' handicap reveal mechanism

  • “Right? Like you got a shot. It's a 30% shot. And you never know. You have to play out of your mind. Which is possible.”

    Stephanie @ late — Argues that even a small win probability can motivate participation and peak performance

  • “pinball is for everyone and we want you all to come back we want you to want to come back and be excited to come back”

    Mike @ end — Core mission statement of PRPHQ; emphasizes inclusivity and retention as organizational priority

  • “If you've won one recently, you can't get the money.”

    Stephanie @ mid — Hilton's rule preventing repeat winners from dominating prize pools; simple structural solution to retention problem

Entities

StephaniepersonMikepersonMarshallpersonChris O'BrienpersonHiltonpersonJoepersonShellypersonLuke SheehanpersonCJperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Newer/mid-tier players experience recurring dropout cycles when entry fees ($5-$10 per tournament) consistently funnel to same top 3-5 players; economic disincentive to return

    high · Stephanie citing Hilton's observation of 'boom and bust' scenes; Mike explaining why PAPA entry ($100+) feels futile with 0% win odds

  • ?

    community_signal: PRPHQ leadership explicitly prioritizing inclusive tournament design and new player retention as core mission; testing multiple format innovations to improve accessibility

    high · Mike: 'pinball is for everyone... we want you all to come back... be excited to come back.' Multiple format experiments (pin golf, stall ball, etc.) showing intentional design for newer players

  • ?

    event_signal: Stall ball format (unlimited players rotating on stall events) emerging as accessible competitive format for skill development; played regularly at Joe/Shelly's house and likely other local venues

    medium · Stephanie/Mike learning stall ball night before podcast; describing it as 'like hot potato'; noting it improves shot accuracy for beginners

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Strong positive reception to alternative tournament formats (pin golf, stall ball) as retention mechanisms; newer players report enjoying objective-based events more than traditional score-based tournaments

    high · Stephanie: 'everyone really enjoyed the pin golf when we did that. That was fun.' Stall ball described as 'very fun' and engaging for skill development

  • ?

    community_signal: Match Play software appears to be de facto standard for rating competitive pinball players; fewer than 700 Wizard/Master tier players nationally; community members commonly check and discuss their ratings

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.130

0:00
Hello. There goes Marshall. I do finger snaps at the beginning and he runs away. That's why he lost his chair. Yeah. He wasn't participating enough. No. We don't have time for that. He doesn't like the finger snapping. Anyways, I'm Stephanie. I'm Mike. And this is the Punk Rock Pinball Podcast. It's an episode in the 30s. Somewhere in there. Yeah. So today we're going to talk about how to keep competitive pinball engaging for newer players and lesser skilled players. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, we are. We had a tournament yesterday, our Cobb Classic. The Cobb Classic. Second annual named after our friend Chris O'Brien. And we are in the land of corn growing, so it kind of is great. Did you know that Illinois grows more corn than any other state? I did know that. Because I told you that? No, I've known that. Do you know we also grow the most pumpkins and horseradish? The pumpkins are grown right over in Morton. Yeah. Horseradish, too. I didn't know about horseradish. It's true. It's very flat down here. If you're not in that very kind of northern section of Illinois, it's very flat. It's great. Flatlanders. We are flatlanders. Anyways, we had the Cobb Tournament yesterday, and a lot of players came out, a lot of really great players, a lot of people from our scene who have grown over the last couple of years since we've joined, and some new people too. And it's not always easy being one of the newer players and growing your skills. Yeah. And so I was thinking,
2:03
we've done some things that are fun that aren't necessarily like tournaments. Yeah, and some of them could loosely be called a tournament and some are not. But it's just kind of fun for everyone. And I'm kind of curious what other people might be doing because there's got to be other folks playing pinball in other weird ways that aren't tournaments necessarily. Yeah. So recently we did like a pin golf day, which was really fun. It was like an objective-based event where you came in and you got a scorecard and you had to get on a machine and your score didn't matter. You just had to meet the objective. Yep. So I think one of them was on the fall of the empire was start the Battle of Hoth Battle of Hoth multiball. Yeah. So you didn't have to shoot any kind of score. You just had to start that multiball in as few balls as possible.

Illinois grows more corn, pumpkins, and horseradish than any other state

high confidence · Stephanie and Mike discussing local geography; stated as fact at beginning of episode

  • “because it's like you go up there, the entry fee is $100, $100, $120, $75, a decent amount of money. You're paying this money to enter a tournament that you know your odds of winning based on your skills is zero.”

    Mike @ late — Explains the original motivation for founding PRPHQ; frames big tournaments as inaccessible to mid-tier players

  • “I've gotten over that a little bit [choking in tournaments]... Yeah, you have. I just choke in general. Every tournament, I just play like crap.”

    Stephanie / Mike @ end — Self-aware humor about mid-tier player psychology; normalizes performance anxiety as common issue

    • Raymond Davidson
    person
    Zach McCarthyperson
    Zach Sharpeperson
    Andyperson
    PRPHQorganization
    Cobb Classicevent
    Match Playproduct
    Star Wars Fall of the Empiregame
    The Walking Deadgame
    Ripley's Believe It or Notgame
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Insider Connectedproduct
    Tom Graffperson
    PAPAevent
    Fox Cities Winter Bashevent

    high · Mike looking up ratings recently; familiar with tier names (Wizard, Master, Expert, A-D); knows specific players' ratings (Luke Sheehan Master, Joe/CJ Expert, Shelly A-B)

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Objective-based tournament formats (pin golf, Amazing Race pin golf hybrid) are gaining traction as alternatives to pure score competition; enables longer tournament participation for newer players

    medium · Stephanie and Mike discussing Colorado 'Price is Right' format; proposing Amazing Race + pin golf hybrid; stall ball gaining use at local houses

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Handicap system concept framed as way to preserve competitive integrity while giving lower-rated players realistic win probability (0% → ~33%); inspired by golf/bowling models

    medium · Extensive discussion of 'muck' (applied multiplier calculated after ball three bonus) as reveal mechanism; comparison to golf handicaps and bowling pins systems

  • $

    market_signal: Hilton's randomized payout strategy (selecting 7th-10th place or bottom-4 playoff winners for prize pools) indicates growing awareness among organizers that traditional 1st-3rd payout structure creates retention problems

    medium · Stephanie recounting Hilton's practice of rotating which places receive payout; Joe/Shelly's house rule excluding themselves from winnings for fairness

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern Pinball Insider Connected actively adding cosmetic features (Pokemon achievements) with no clear indication of competitive/accessibility features in near-term roadmap; hosts skeptical of capacity to implement handicap system

    medium · Mike sarcastically noting Stern is busy 'adding more Pokemon you can catch... hundreds more... achievements for whatever the next game is'

  • ?

    technology_signal: Match Play software is viable platform for implementing handicap tournament features; already has player rating infrastructure in place (Wizard-D tier system); could be monetized as premium subscription add-on

    medium · Mike suggesting Match Play could add handicap feature as $100/yr premium tier; already has rating data and tournament entry mechanisms

    • 3:05
    So if you started on ball one, you get a one in the lower the score, the better. And it was really fun because it wasn't like a secret what the objective was. We made sure everybody knew how to do it. And it's funny because in yesterday's tournament, I'm like, all right, I know what I need to do on whatever game. Actually, on The Walking Dead, I'm like, I'm just going to go for The Well Walker. Yeah, because that was our objective on The Walking Dead remaster, start The Well Walker multiball. And that's what I did. I did that in the Amazing Race finals, and it got me past that game. Yeah, because if you get that multiball, you're probably, even if you don't do great on it, you're probably over $10 million. Probably $15 to $20 million at least in an Amazing Race format, another kind of fun one that can be fun.
    3:53
    $15, $20 million is probably going to get you through on that game. That game is brutal. You could probably do an Amazing Race pin golf kind of thing where it is like meet that objective to get past it instead of a score.
    4:07
    Oh, yeah. And if you're unfamiliar with what Amazing Race is, I guess we're kind of bobbing and weaving here. But Amazing Race is a format where you have everybody plays on, say you have 10 people. You all start on one machine. The person that scored the lowest on that machine is out. So in that case, that's where I don't love Amazing Race for like a noob.
    4:32
    Because odds are you're going to be one of the lower scores. So you might play one game and be out. So it's not the best format for a noob. But if it was objective-based Amazing Race, it could go on a long time.
    4:46
    Because all you have to do, especially for pin golf, we put the games on five ball. If you put them all on five ball, it's like you've got to start the well walk or multi ball. And if you do it, you get to go along. You get to move on. That could be fun. It would be fun. like an amazing amazing race pin golf hybrid i like it that's kind of fun yeah then we haven't done this yet but there was that group out in colorado that did the prices right yeah closest without going over yeah a set an objective or a target score yeah that's kind of fun yeah the price is right more challenging than you would think it is depending on what that objective score is right because you need to know like the what could the bonus be uh you might need to like tilt the ball on purpose to not get the bonus yeah because if you go over the score if anyone else finishes under the score you lose yeah yeah so that's yeah that's another good one we need to host one of those um maybe our next monthly tournament we don't have it as a double header but maybe we'd do a Price is Right one earlier in the day. Yeah, that'd be fun.
    6:03
    Because that way, you try to set a score where a noob could get it. So if it's on Jaws, you're not going to set the score at $200 million. You maybe set Jaws to $55 million. Yeah. And if you're a good player, it's hard to get as close to $55 million as possible and then not go over it. And you have to play all three balls. You have to play all three balls. And maybe we make a rule about tilting because I know Steph and I did that here at the house. And I think it was on Zeppelin or Foo. Like I was real close and my ball three came up and I just tilted it on purpose. I don't know if that maybe should be against the rules. I don't know. Can you tilt or can you not tilt? I don't know.
    6:51
    Tilt is part of the game. Yeah, I guess so. You know, I don't know. Because I think I plunged the ball and just tilted the game because I didn't want that bonus. Bonus would have put me under, put me over.
    7:05
    So did you talk about stall ball? No, we didn't. We just learned this thing last night. Apparently they've been playing it at Joe and Shelly's forever. And we just got introduced to it last night, and I'm really excited about it. So stall ball is you have unlimited amount of people playing one game. we did a one player game. Yeah, just get in a big long line. Get in a big long line. And we started on Ripley's, believe it or not. And anytime the ball is stalled, you switch players. And so what a stall could be is going in the scoop where the ball sits for a second or two, or the magnet, or when you start the continent thing and the ball goes down and it stops for a second. Any of those were a locked ball. And there's a ball lock there, yeah. Any of those counted as a stall. So when you're playing and you get the ball to stall, you step aside and the player behind you gets in. Yeah, like once it goes, if you hit a scoop, like you just run away. And the next person has to come in real quick. So you got to be ready. You got to be ready. And if the ball drains while you're playing, you're out. Yeah. And everyone keeps progressing. Uh-huh. And then when that game finishes, they went to another game. It was really fun. It was fun.
    8:22
    Yeah. So, yeah, anytime the ball stops, you dip out. The other person has to come in, get the ball, stall it, go. I feel like that's a thing, too, that kind of makes you a better player of, like, trying to hit a specific shot. It's not about necessarily just keeping the ball alive. Right. You have to hit it somewhere where it's going to be stopped so you can go away. Yeah. It was very fun. So for beginners, I think that's great because you have to practice hitting, like, a specific target. You're not just smacking around keeping it alive. You've got to hit somewhere where it's going to stop so you can get off the game. It's like hot potato. It is like hot potato. Yeah, very much fun.
    9:02
    And it's not necessarily a tournament, but it's competitive in a way that you're trying to survive. So those are a few things I think are good for kind of mid to beginner players. because what so often happens, and our friend Hilton in Madison, who's been doing this a very long time,
    9:28
    I had a conversation with him the other day, and I was talking about how he's seen a great number of pinball scenes, like boom and bust and boom and bust,
    9:42
    because if you have a competitive tournament scene, and it ebbs and flows and a lot of times you'll get a lot of new people and they'll keep coming back for like a handful of tournaments but when they're routinely like the lower finishing in the lower third of the field and let's say it costs ten dollars to enter these and it's your money's always going to these same few people it can get to be like why am i doing this yeah you know i do know like and that was us for the first six to ten months of us playing in pinball tournaments and we still haven't won a lot of them and we don't even finish like in the money in a lot of them but we routinely down here we routinely finish in the upper third like when we have a decent day but we don't win a lot there's like two two three people down here that win most of the time so that does get to be tiresome and i can see how it can be like if you a newer player and you just developing your skills like why am I going to keep coming to these tournaments? And these same people routinely kick my ass. So I think some of these other formats would be a lot more. Like everyone really enjoyed the pin golf when we did that. That was fun, too, because the way we had it set up, it was kind of like a rolling start. Like, come do it whenever you can. Here's the scorecard, and good luck. Yeah, because there's no waiting. Because the other thing is the waiting.
    11:23
    And the better players you have in your scene, the worse it is. Where, like, I just played a round on this game, and it took eight minutes. And then there's two good players now on this other game, and that's taking a half hour. so I'm going to stand here and wait 30 more minutes until my next game, which can get annoying.
    11:46
    So something like the pin golf where we just had score sheets. Here you go. Go play your games. Write down your score. Bring it back. There's no waiting. It was fun. Yeah, it was super fun. It was a fun little Sunday afternoon, Sunday golf.
    12:02
    And then Hilton had another, told me a couple other things that he does, where for certain tournaments, because usually there's a $5, $10 entry and there's a prize pool, and he'll get tired of giving that to the same people all the time.
    12:20
    So it's like if you've won one recently, you can't get the money. And I think he said, correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think Hilton listens to the show, But if you do, I think he said sometimes he would pick four positions at random that are going to get the payout for that tournament. So usually you would pay first, second, third place or first, second, third, fourth place.
    12:45
    He'll do a thing where it's like, oh, this one, seventh, eighth, ninth, and tenth get the money. Oh, my God. That's so awesome. And it's like random. Like he just spins a wheel at the beginning or something? Yeah. Or he's done it to where the people that finish in the bottom four of the qualifying, they play a one-round playoff, the bottom four qualifiers, to determine the order, and those four get the money. Okay, that's fun. Bottom four gets the money.
    13:18
    And the first, second, third, fourth is dependent upon the finals match between the people that were the worst four in qualifying. I want to do that so that like if you because if you qualified in the bottom four whether you're new or not it doesn't feel fun usually like we've been there a lot but at the end of the night if you qualified dead last but then you won that thing so you were fourth to last and then you got the money you'd feel like a little bit happy leaving I would think so yeah I mean every most everybody's been in the bottom four. I mean, I know I have a lot. Because in the people that routinely win, I think they care more about the points, whether it be punk rock points or IFPA points. The winners care more about the points usually than the money.
    14:13
    And it's just something that neat where like, okay, I'm one of the bottom players in this scene right now. You may not be stuck there because you can learn and get better.
    14:25
    But I'm one of the bottom players in the scene, but I won the money because I was the best of the bottom players. Yeah.
    14:33
    And you're not going to see the top players tanking to get down there because they want the points. They want the points. They don't care really about the money. They want the points. That's cool. So we should do that sometime. I don't know if you can do that as an IFPA. You might have a rule against it, but you know who doesn't?
    14:49
    PRPA. as a punk rock pinball tournament you can give the prize pool to whoever the hell you want as the tournament director you choose as long as it's fair and random you can't be like well steve comes all the time so i'm going to give steve the prize pool today there it has to be stated yeah let's make that clear like it has to be stated before the tournament starts yeah like seven eight nine ten are getting the money or the bottom four are having a playoff for the money or like these four people have won the last three so they can't get the money so it's going to be the next four below them that get the money yeah um joe and shelly do that at their house if someone with their last name wins they don't take the money uh-huh yeah which is cool and it's usually someone with their last name that wins or close or close usually one of the one if not both of them are in the money yeah they're good most of the time they're good players yeah and good people and good people good players good people yeah yeah i like that um you and hilton talked about something else too oh yeah i don't know hilton if this is proprietary information because it's an idea that i had and and sounds like he had had this probably other people too the same idea and probably other people have as well what if there could be a handicapping system in competitive pinball just like we have in golf and bowling.
    16:21
    Tell me more. So, and if you don't know much about golf and bowling, like golf has a handicap in that if I'm going to play and you're going to play a three-player match like Stephanie, me, and Tiger Woods, there's going to be a handicap where Tiger Woods, His handicap is probably like a plus five, meaning whatever he shoots, you add five to that.
    16:49
    And then I would have a handicap of, say, minus 16. So whatever I shoot, I get to reduce that by 16 strokes. You'd probably have like a minus 40 because you don't play golf. So whatever you shot, you take 40 off of that score. so in theory stephanie and i and me and tiger woods could play a golf match and if he had a bad day for him you had a good day for you you could beat tiger woods at golf i mean that sounds so awesome and then bowling is the same like if you've ever bowled in a league like if you're playing a team way better than you you get pins so like our score is this plus like 150 pins so we could go bowl against some PBA bowlers. And if we like play really good for ourselves, as long as we don't months in it, we could beat them.
    17:42
    So we're thinking, how cool would that be if it existed in pinball in a really cool way to make it exist? And I'm sure they don't have the resources to do this at this moment. but what if Stern's Insider Connected had a rating for every player?
    18:04
    And then Hilton termed this, the way it would be enacted at the end of the thing, it would be called the muck, where let's say Stephanie is going head-to-head with Zach McCarthy, one of the best players in the world, or no, you're going head-to-head with Raymond Davidson. I like Raymond on Star Wars Fall of the Empire well he kicked my ass on it when we did the Topper game and I'm pretty sure Raymond is like a top 5 player in the world so like 100 times out of 100 he's probably going to kick your butt or my butt he's one of the best if there was a big time if you could make a living at pinball competitive pinball he would be one of the ones that would do it yeah totally so let's say Stern Insider Connected stephanie's rating is whatever which means if she's playing somebody rated your rating is x and raymond's rating is z and as an x against a z you get like plus 3.5 times your points okay plus 2.5 times your points okay some plus modifier okay and raymond as a z playing against and X, his is like minus .75.
    19:25
    And none of this is calculated until after the bonus on ball three. Oh. And we don't really know exactly what the modifiers are. So think about pinball like live streaming. Let's say it's on the Fox Cities Tom Graff stream, and we're playing at like the Papa Championships, and it's Stephanie against Raymond. Oh, my God. I'd be so nervous. And, like, Stephanie's shooting a pretty good game for her. Like, so, like, let's say you're cooking along. You shot 500 million points. Okay. It's doable. It's a really good game for you. Yeah. Or, like, what's your best? It's probably, like, 400-something. Sure. Let's say you shot 428 million. And let's say Raymond is doing good because he's good. but it's not like Raymond level good. He's just like having a decent game. Let's say he shoots like 1.2 billion or whatever. I'm not good at math, so I'm not going to calculate this all, but Raymond shoots 1.2 billion, Stephanie shoots 428 million, but after the bonus on ball three, the muck is applied, and Stephanie's score magically is now three times what it was, which is going to be over a billion, and then Raymond's is like minus .75, so boom, Stephanie beat him. but you don't know until after the bonus on ball three so the suspense and drama and the people talking on the stream you're like man i think this is going to be close it should because she's having a good game and raymond's doing good but like he scored a lot higher than that before and so there'd be a suspense and drama and then after the the calculations happened like people would be like whoa you know that sounds so fun I mean it would be a lot of work and like you said I'm sure they don't have the resources to do something like that but whoa would that be exciting to watch and to participate in it would be so cool to participate in and of course for the world championships they can have their open tournaments that are not handicapped But it would be cool if there were a handful of handicapped events per year Now, somebody that's like a math whiz could just figure this out and do it on a spreadsheet. Yeah. But who's going to do that? That would be really heavy lifting. I assume the back-end coding on Insider Connected would be tough. Yeah. Yeah, and like the, I mean, there's lots, we're just playing in the world of like, we're just dreamland. Yeah. So there's a lot of things you could poke holes in for sure. Like people, like the good players could, like in bowling, kind of like tank their qualifying. Yeah, you sandbag.
    22:14
    Yeah, but the whole idea of it is pretty fun. Yeah, I think the way you prevent sandbagging is that like your rating, your rating and whatever is pulling from your average scores, you would have to play in like a certain number of like ranked open events, meaningful events where you can earn meaningful points. So like none of the top players are going to sandbag their stuff. Yeah. So it's not like it counts what you've been playing at home. Right, so it's like, oh, I'm about to go into a handicap tournament, and Zeppelin Pro's in that, so I'm going to sit here and shoot 2 million or less for 12 consecutive games to pull my rating down. No. The ratings would have to come from ranked events. Oh my God, that's so fun. But if there was a way for the normals of the world, which are us, the normals to kind of go to one of those big mega tournaments and actually have a shot to win.
    23:21
    Because right now, playing in those huge tournaments was a big motivator for starting the Punk Rock Pinball Association in general. because it's like you go up there, the entry fee is $100, $100, $120, $75, a decent amount of money. You're paying this money to enter a tournament that you know your odds of winning based on your skills is zero.
    23:51
    Totally. It's zero. Like, your odds, our odds of even making the A finals, like players like us, is like maybe, like at the next Papa for me to make the A finals, I would say my odds of doing that, if I play my best, 9%? Wow. 12%?
    24:17
    I'm getting better, so maybe by that time, maybe 20% to even make the A final. That's hard. But the odds of winning. Oh, gosh. None. No. No shot. Unless like there's like a bunch of people had like diarrhea.
    24:32
    Yeah, all of the top 50. Like they all went out to dinner the night before and, you know, kept running to the bathroom and like, you know, the timer goes on their ball and they're just stuck in the can. Yeah, there was like a mass outbreak of like norovirus.
    24:50
    And it only impacted like the top 80 people at the tournament. Yeah. And even if you knocked out the top 80, my chance of winning is still close to zero. Yeah. It's close to zero.
    25:04
    And so let's say you had a handicap system that made your odds of winning. It would still be low because the better people are going to beat you. It's usually how it works. But let's say it took your odds from zero to 33%. So you're telling me there's a chance. Mm-hmm. Right? Like you got a shot. It's a 30% shot. And you never know. You have to play out of your mind. Which is possible. It's possible.
    25:29
    We all have days. We do. So you play great and you hope a couple of top ones that you match up with are kind of mid that day for them. And you can beat them. Yeah. But like me versus Andy or Zach McCarthy or Raymond Davidson or Zach Sharp, out of like 50 matches, especially like a mid-era to modern machine, it's like I might be lucky to win one of 50 against players like that, you know? Mm-hmm. And if you're talking people like in the top five, I'm going to win like none out of 50. Zero. Probably. So, yeah, it's something to give you a chance. I like that. So if you're like a mathematician wizard and you could code this, you should like, I'm not saying Stern's interested in making this, but you should take this idea and take it to them and be like, hey, I've got the code. I got the skills. Just install this on your app. It would revolutionize competitive pinball. Yeah. Because imagine if we could do it on a local level and our newer players that come and are new members to the HQ and play in our tournaments that are routinely their best day, they're in the middle, and worst day, they're at the bottom, to where that puts them on the handicapped line. They win sometimes. I mean, doesn't IFPA also have their ranking system of people, like ABC or whatever? Match Play does. Or Match Play? Yeah. One of those two. IPA probably does, but I look it up in Match Play. Because I was looking at that just the other day.
    27:11
    There are fewer than, what is it, Masters? Is that the one above Expert? Yeah, I think so. There are fewer than 700 of those people. And our friend Luke Sheehan is one of them. That's cool. Yeah. And I know from our area, like Joe and CJ are Expert. I think they're both rated Expert. Is there a Wizard? There's a wizard. There's like three of them or six.
    27:39
    There's just a few. It might have been seven. Match play? Wizard or Grand Wizard or something. There's only single digits, the top, whatever the top ranking is on match play. If you've played a tournament in match play events, you can click on your name. It will show you your rating. and then there was a link there that takes you to the whole list of who's rated what. I want to see what I'm rated. Yeah, because I can't remember exactly what they call them all. I think I'm a B or an A. I think I'm a C. Last time I looked. Really? I don't know. I think you're a B. I don't. I think Shelly was an A. But it's cool to look at those ratings. Those ratings could maybe tie into it in some way.
    28:24
    That would probably be the simplest way. is like if you are an expert and you're playing a B, that would be the easiest way to lighten the code probably so you don't have to tie it to an individual. Oh, I'm a B. I thought you were a B.
    28:40
    You might pull that and then say, so an expert player playing a B player gives up X percentage of their points. So you don't have to even worry about an individual sandbagging. Like what are you rated? You're a B? so if you're playing a wizard you're getting like a plus 3.5x or however whatever whatever the people that are good at math can figure out that's kind of cool yeah i feel like match play could probably just figure that out maybe match play could do it doesn't need to be stern because when you i we don't do it a lot for our tournaments but like we were doing it last night for um for a couple of games amazing race and when you have to do like one player games you can actually enter in the person's score yeah like they do at bigger events we usually just all agree and do who's first second third and fourth but if you're entering in those scores i bet there is a way for matt like match play could figure out a way to apply some kind of multiplier. Yeah, because Match Play, if you set it up, they could have you set the tournament up as a handicapped tournament. It would require you to enter the scores and then you click calculate. So then you wouldn't know who won until you clicked calculate in Match Play. That'd be so fun. It'd be more exciting seeing it on the game. Where the game had an animation like, here comes the muck! And then it shows you the scores. But if it was in MatchPlay, that would be badass. It would be cool.
    30:20
    And MatchPlay already has every player that's played in there is rated. Yeah. I don't know. I don't know the folks that run the MatchPlay website, but maybe you do that. Maybe you make that a feature because there's like a paid subscription to MatchPlay, right? So maybe they added this, MatchPlay. I don't you probably whoever runs that doesn't listen to this but maybe someone listening knows somebody there they could add that feature and that's like a super premium subscription if you want to run handicapped tournaments that'd be cool what's match play cost to subscribe maybe it's like 50 bucks a year so 50 a year for the regular maybe it's 100 a year if you want to do handicapped I'd pay 100 a year that'd be fun yeah okay Because Stern, I think Stern would probably love to do it. They've got a lot going on. But, man, they're busy. They're busy. And they're going to be so busy adding more Pokemon you can catch. Oh, my God, I can't wait. Into Insider Connected.
    31:25
    Because they've got to add hundreds more Pokemon to catch in there. I can't wait. And they've got to add achievements for whatever the next game is and the next game. So probably very unrealistic to expect that from Stern. but Matchplay could add it and that could be a way they could further monetize that website that'd be cool great idea honey well thinking a bit for Matchplay well you and Hilton were I think everybody's probably I shouldn't say everybody I bet a lot of people have talked about a handicap system it would be really fun we could test it even just like going back and looking at old yeah you'd have to test it like we would need somebody a little bit better with math arithmetic um than us to calculate to try to get close to where it should be and then kind of do a tournament on a spreadsheet A couple of local like baby test tournaments and see like does it work Uh huh. And we have pretty good players that span the spectrums. Like I know that Joe and CJ are both at least expert. I'll tell you. I don't I don't know if either is a master.
    32:45
    But so we have some experts. We have some A's. we have some b's i'm pretty sure an expert just oh joe's an expert yeah cj is i think cj is also an expert expert we're b shelly i think is an a and i know we have how low does it go i i don't know last time i saw it it was let's go down to c shelly's a b shelly's a b she was an a at one point um hang on let me look at someone who i think would be rating d so there it goes down to d so we could test that but what do you all think let us know in the comments below like a handicapping system for competitive pinball i think would be revolutionary to growing participation in tournaments because you can come in and you've got a chance that's pretty fun because the same way that like steph and i do not have a chance to win at like papa or the expo tournament unless everybody has diarrhea unless everyone has diarrhea there are people in our scene that as of today have zero percent chance to win like a tournament at our hq yeah there's a handful of players i mean I've only ever won the pin golf one but I have when we do a tournament I think I have probably like a 5% chance to win maybe even 20 like I've qualified near the top a lot and then I choke in the finals but we've got a number of players whose percent chance to win would be close to zero yes but you also used to choke every tournament yeah I've gotten over that a little bit Yeah, you have. I just choke in general. Every tournament, I just play like crap. Yeah, you choke, and then we'd drive home, and you'd be like, I just choke. I don't know why I do this. And we'd be all mad. Why am I doing this? Yeah. So, like, yeah, we understand that feeling. And, yeah, how do we make it, like, how do we make everybody keep coming back? Yeah. Because it's, like, super nice people. And a nice group of people as well. And I think everybody wants everyone else to come back. we all want you to come back yes everybody wants everybody to come back and again pinball is for everyone and we want you all to come back we want you to want to come back and be excited to come back and so maybe like i think we should try to maybe do some stuff that isn't just like match play tournaments and where we're all grinding it out like maniacs yeah i mean we're just coming off of a four-hour qualifying event yesterday which was like a long the um the annual tournament for psychos basically yeah it went from like 1 p.m to 8 yeah like 7 maybe 7 30 maybe 7 30 it was a long day but very fun but very much for the hardcore like i had some some friends that would probably come to a regular one, and I told them, like, this one might not be for you because this is a lot of pinball. It's a lot of pinball. And I can't wait to do it again next year. Let me just say that. It is so fun. But it is, yeah, it's not like that format that we did yesterday is not for, like, hey, come do a pinball tournament. No. No, you'll never come back again. You'd be like, geez, I just got my ass kicked for four straight hours. That sucked. but yeah we'll do come up with some more casual stuff to run and see how that goes but I do get the frustration because like Steph said I'd ride home in the car after I'd choked and there was a point in time where I about gave it up there was yeah I don't believe it maybe for a minute you're too competitive but there was like a streak there where you were like I suck you're the one who's going to be the good player that's what you would say yeah like let's coach you get you to the ladies state finals because you always there was like a probably two straight months where you routinely just finished way higher than me in the tournaments and I'm like I'll just help coach you it's true and I coached you to the win not during the tournament I didn't break any IFPA rules I helped coach you to the win on, was it Uncanny X-Men one?
    37:25
    I talked you through the rules. Oh, when I won the thing? Yeah. On the way there? Yeah. Like 30 seconds before we got to the venue? I talked you through what to do. And I did it. On Uncanny X-Men, you won the women's, you got the plaque. I got the plaque for that. The women's launch tournament. And then we kind of collectively did that on Kong. because you were going to bed the night before and you're like could you watch the travis murray video on kong and then tell me what to do because you had to go to sleep yeah and i stay up later and i'm like yeah and then on the way to the tournament we talked about and i've forgotten now but like this multi-ball you pair with that mode and yeah yeah and i know they've added all these crazy combos so like that's not the meta anymore on kong but at the launch time that was like the meta is do this multiple with that mode this multiple this other mode and you executed that you won i did so like you had to pull it off it's one thing to know it's true you did it uh but yeah yeah i i mean i i strongly but i loved playing pinball but i strongly kind of wanted to just quit i know you did it's just nothing but a choker just like wrestling all over again Mike would choke as a young wrestler in junior high yeah I would beat the crap out of all my teammates unstoppable in practice unstoppable I don't know if I ever lost to somebody on the team but when it counted you go to the match boom done you know it's alright you got over it with pinball it's weird I never choked as a skateboarder like in skateboard competitions I don't ever choke as a drummer you know I did like all those shows in 2024 I did like 120 some shows I think I messed up two times or three times don't choke on the drums don't choke on a skateboard I would now but pinball is a choke That's all right. I'm still trying to overcome it. You're doing a really good job overcoming it, honey.
    39:41
    You really are. Okay, we're at the 40-minute mark. We're at the 40-minute mark. Well, I mean, just another couple.
    39:48
    We didn't say at the top, but if anybody is listening to this that is also in the Facebook group, we did put a statement out. Yeah. You're not still listening if you're looking for that statement. No. But we did. There's a thing about we had sponsored done a banner ad on the IFPA website it was a mistake we have pulled the ad we have listened to the community we have pulled the ad we got duped yeah we got played a little bit I think we got played a little bit but we're not going to get into that part but the community spoke we are changing it we put out a poll to get all of y'all's feedback appreciate the feedback we pulled the ad as far as the Punk Rock Pinball Association portion goes we will always listen to the community and we will always make the changes that we think the community wants and are in the best interest of the players and the tournament directors within the Punk Rock Pinball Association it's like tournament director and player driven and we will, whatever we need to do with the rules or whatever, with what you all want to do is what we will do. We will always listen to you. We're not going to make every change that everyone says, but when the community overwhelmingly voices that it should be this one way, when it's the majority of our community, we'll make that change. Yep. Right? Yep. Cool. so here's to cheers to a drama free next week hopefully it was a lot of drama this week but we listened and yeah let's just go play pinball let's go play pinball a lot of this last week was not fun we do this for fun this is our hobby we don't make any money from this at all no it's like negative It's a negative financial thing, and that's fine. Yeah, we chose to do this. We chose this, but we chose it for fun.
    42:05
    Last week wasn't fun. No, it wasn't. It was like not at all fun. So let's get back to fun. Yeah. I mean, there's going to be good days and bad days. As long as there are more good days than bad days, we're winning. Yeah. If it flip-flops and there's more bad days, then we'll reconsider. Yeah. Right? Perfect. Yeah. Every day is not going to be all sunshine. Sometimes the sun shines on your face. Sometimes the sun doesn't shine. So there, you've got that. Yeah. All right, thanks for making it this far.
    42:33
    And if you would, if you made it this far and you haven't, like leave us a review on one of the podcasts on Spotify or the Apple or comment on the video if you're watching it on YouTube or give it a thumbs up, subscribe.
    42:47
    The reviews on the podcast platforms really help a lot. and if you're still listening I'm assuming you liked it because you're listening right now yeah if you can tolerate this kind of stuff give it a good review alright that's all I gotta go to champagne Seth's gotta go to champagne let's go cheers toodaloo bye