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Episode 125 Kaneda Joins the Tribe?!

Poor Man's Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·analyzed·Sep 9, 2022
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.039

TL;DR

Kaneda analyzes pinball pricing, Toy Story's market failure, and boutique competition heading into 2023.

Summary

Kaneda (Chris Kooluris) joins Poor Man's Pinball Podcast to discuss market dynamics, pricing strategies, and manufacturer competition in 2023. Key topics include Spooky's pricing and non-refundable deposits, Jersey Jack's Toy Story struggles, secondary market depreciation, and why boutique manufacturers struggle to compete despite strong themes from competitors like Stern. Kaneda argues that quality over quantity is essential and predicts Stern will dominate 2023.

Key Claims

  • Kaneda's podcast (Canada's Pinball) has approximately 716 episodes not including deleted content.

    high confidence · Kaneda stated directly when asked how many episodes he has: 'I think 716, not including the deleted episodes and the drunken rants I've had to take down.'

  • Spooky's TNA game originally sold for $6,000 about four years prior and is now priced at $9,000 — a 50% price increase.

    high confidence · Kaneda: 'that game sold three years ago for $6,000. So you're telling me three years later, four years later, I think it was four years ago. It's now 50% more money.'

  • Spooky sold over 100-150 TNA games in the first hour but did not sell out all 250 units on the initial sale date.

    high confidence · Kaneda: 'they had a successful day. Don't get me wrong. I think they sold over 100, maybe 150 in the first maybe hour. but here's the bigger damage happening... they didn't sell all 250 in one day. It's still not sold out.'

  • Jersey Jack's Toy Story CE was MSRP $15,000 but is now selling on the secondary market for $13,000 without buyers.

    high confidence · Kaneda: 'the CE, which was MSRP at 15 grand, now on the used market, new in box, people are trying to sell them for 13 without buyers.'

  • Jersey Jack's Toy Story LE priced at $12,000 is now selling on secondary market for $10-10.5K.

    high confidence · Kaneda: 'you got the LE, which is 12,000, which are now selling for around 10 to 10.5.'

  • Jersey Jack claimed to make $30 million in sales on Toy Story's day one launch.

    high confidence · Kaneda: 'jack went on some podcast and said they made 30 million dollars and sales in one day.'

  • Spooky has sold approximately 1,750 units of their recent game (likely Ultraman or Halloween) in one day.

    high confidence · Kaneda: 'Spooky's making a lot of money and they deserve it. They made it work. They made a company that couldn't even sell 150 games all the way up to a company that now sold out of 1,750 in one day.'

  • Kaneda predicts Stern will dominate the pinball market in 2023 and no boutique manufacturer has a strong competitor title coming.

Notable Quotes

  • “I think primarily, I think I say stuff that is upsetting to the manufacturers. And I think if you love pinball, you are going to want to sort of celebrate most of what goes on in pinball.”

    Kaneda @ early in episode — Explains Kaneda's philosophy and why he's controversial in the community.

  • “making fun of Bo Peep and Jersey Jack pinball for a $15,000 game that has about $6,000 in it. I'll poke the bear because it's fun.”

    Kaneda @ mid-episode — Direct criticism of Jersey Jack's Toy Story pricing strategy; claims cost-to-price mismatch.

  • “If the game is great, it should sell out in minutes. What if they don't show it again? What if it's a similar? I don't think people I don't think people are going to just throw like let's say it's Scooby-Doo hypothetically right and they just say our next game is Scooby-Doo on the heels of Ultraman and Halloween they won't sell 1250 or 1750 Scooby-Doos sight unseen anymore I think Spooky lost the privilege to sell something sight unseen now”

    Kaneda @ mid-episode — Predicts Spooky's future game sales will suffer due to lack of product transparency on Halloween/Ultraman launches; signals loss of consumer trust.

  • “You've got something people want. Make it. ... if they're smart, they've got to rerun Pirates. It's like the silliest thing ever.”

    Kaneda @ discussing Jersey Jack strategy — Recommends Jersey Jack leverage high-demand older titles to recover from Toy Story decline.

  • “One good game is better than five years of mediocre crap, right? One Godzilla is better than seven boutique games that you want to get rid of in six months.”

    Kaneda @ closing philosophy — Core philosophy on quality over quantity in boutique pinball manufacturing.

  • “The problem with Jersey Jack right now... on day one, wasn't the vibe a little different for Toy Story?... What's happened to the price of the game, though? Well, it went up... the CE, which was MSRP at 15 grand, now on the used market, new in box, people are trying to sell them for 13 without buyers.”

    Kaneda and Drew @ Toy Story discussion — Illustrates secondary market collapse and demand deterioration for Toy Story post-launch.

Entities

KanedapersonDrewpersonSpooky PinballcompanyJersey Jack PinballcompanyStern PinballcompanyAmerican Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    product_concern: Jersey Jack Toy Story experiencing rapid secondary market price collapse: CE from $15K MSRP to $13K used (no buyers), LE from $12K to $10-10.5K, indicating demand flatline post-launch despite claimed $30M day-one sales.

    high · Kaneda: 'the CE, which was MSRP at 15 grand, now on the used market, new in box, people are trying to sell them for 13 without buyers.' 'you got the LE, which is 12,000, which are now selling for around 10 to 10.5.'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball manufacturers aggressively raising MSRP (Spooky TNA +50% over 4 years, JJP Toy Story at $15K CE) without corresponding product improvements, creating secondary market risk and consumer resistance.

    high · Kaneda: 'you're going to destroy your business and you're going to destroy your brand pretty quickly' when manufacturers try to capture scalper/flipper margins. Discussion of Rolex pricing strategy vs. pinball manufacturers' approach.

  • ?

    product_concern: Spooky's Halloween and Ultraman perceived as incomplete games due to insufficient coding/software engineering resources. Two-game-per-year strategy backfired due to inadequate R&D personnel.

    high · Kaneda: 'It was like two separately coded games with the same design. Right. Look at look at how that went for them. They clearly didn't have enough coders and software engineers to really do it right.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Spooky lost consumer trust to purchase games sight unseen after Halloween/Ultraman non-refundable deposit strategy (locked 1,750 deposits with minimal gameplay reveal pre-launch). Kaneda predicts next game (Scooby-Doo) will not sell out without transparent product preview.

    high · Kaneda: 'I think Spooky lost the privilege to sell something sight unseen now' and 'they won't sell 1250 or 1750 Scooby-Doos sight unseen anymore.'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.253

0:00
This amazing episode of the new Poor Man's Pinball Network and the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast is brought to you by Flippin' Out Pinball. Call Zach today, 812-457-9711. You can get all your new pinball games, all your accessories, all your arcade games, Big Buck Hunter, all kinds of great stuff. Flippin' Out Pinball, 812-457-9711. Tell Zach and Nicole that the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast sent you. We're also sponsored by PinballPrices.com Doc Finlay He does a great job Logging all the prices Of all the pinball sales Of all of our favorite games Go check out PinballPrices.com And tell him That the poor man Sent you as well So thank you And on with the show
0:57
Welcome to the Poor Man's Pinball Podcast, episode 125. We have a great show for you today. I have an amazing guest here. We've been trying to do this for a while. Some people love him. Some people hate him. Most want to pretend that he doesn't exist. He is the undisputed grand champion of pinball podcasting, boasting five twippies for best pinball podcast, bought and paid for with Patreon subscriptions. Please welcome Chris Kularis, Mr. Kaneda himself. Welcome to the show, Chris. Thank you, Drew. But it is favorite pinball podcast, not best. There are those that would argue it is not the best show out there, but it's great to join you. And I was saying to myself today, at these pinball prices, we are all going to be poor men pretty soon. So I'm glad to be here. Well, good, good, man. We've been trying to do this for what, like six months now. Yeah. It's, it's been too long. So it's, I'm, I'm glad to be back. I think we talked like a couple of years ago, so it's, it's, it's, it's good to be back. Yeah. Yeah. Chris was on our show. Ooh, I think that was like episode 50 or something. So yeah. So maybe 75 episodes ago. So quite, quite a while. How many, uh, how many episodes on Canada's right now? I think 716, not including the deleted episodes and the drunken rants I've had to take down. where do you find time to sleep? Yeah. You know, the formula now is not too hard for me. And my shows are about 20 to 30 minutes long. I do about two a week. So it's not too bad. I think anyone who does pinball content after a while, you just get into the groove of how to, you know, skim pin side, read naps arcade. And, and there's usually enough every few days to talk about something new. Yeah. Yeah. I totally agree with that. But, uh, so before we get started with all of great content and everything that's kind of going on in pinball um just a couple things maybe about your podcast that's been going on and you know i i follow you know your fan page i don't subscribe chris i i have to be honest i am not a club member well you're the poor man you're not supposed to pay well there you go maybe you should send me a few free episodes what do you think absolutely um why do you think you're so polarizing and controversial to a lot of people here in the pinball community? I think primarily, I think I say stuff that is upsetting to the manufacturers. And I think if you love pinball, you are going to want to sort of celebrate most of what goes on in pinball. I think I try to take a little bit of a, not a contrarian point of view on pinball, but I try to look at this hobby through a different lens. Are we getting our money's are these manufacturers putting everything they can into these games?

medium confidence · Kaneda: 'I just think Stern is going to clobber everybody next year. I do. I just, you know, I don't know who's got a great game on the horizon that's going to compete with what Stern has coming.'

  • Disney is holding off on renewing licenses for Tron and Pirates of the Caribbean until 2023 when they revisit those properties, and Tron Vault is expected as a strong rumor.

    medium confidence · Drew: 'I heard that disney though is holding off on renewing licenses for tron and pirates of the caribbean until the year 2023 as that is when they are revisiting those properties which is why as canada has said on canada's pinball podcast um tron vault will be coming next year which is a strong rumor.'

  • Dialed In CE machines are currently selling for approximately $8,500 on the secondary market, significantly less than Toy Story CE at $15,000 MSRP.

    high confidence · Kaneda and Drew discuss: 'they're about $8,500 now.' regarding Dialed In secondary market pricing.

  • “This is a poor man's exclusive. Kaneda is backtracking just a little bit here.”

    Drew (host) @ mid-conversation — Self-aware meta-commentary on Kaneda's tendency to revise positions; running joke about Kaneda's flexibility.

  • “Whoa, whoa. Did you hear that? This is a poor man's exclusive. Kaneda is backtracking just a little bit here. Yeah. No, it's all I do. Come on. Come on. My life is always in reverse.”

    Drew and Kaneda @ late episode — Humorous exchange revealing Kaneda's self-aware brand of reversing or softening critical stances.

    • Dennis Nordman
    person
    Pat Lawlerperson
    Jack Winariperson
    Keith Elwinperson
    Charlieperson
    David Fixperson
    Raw Thrillscompany
    Toy Storygame
    Dialed Ingame
    TNA (The New Adventures)game
    Halloweengame
    Ultramangame
    Scooby-Doogame
    Wizard of Ozgame
    Pirates of the Caribbeangame
    Tron Vaultgame
    Galactic Tank Forcegame
    James Bondgame
    Flippin' Out Pinballcompany
    PinballPrices.comorganization
  • ?

    business_signal: Jersey Jack distributors now holding unsold Toy Story inventory (CE and LE units), creating cash flow and warehouse risk. Distributors unable to move games at current pricing; potential for JJP to face restock delays and contract tensions.

    medium · Kaneda: 'you've got distributors who are basically on the hook to buy all of these LEs and CEs... distributors sitting with a lot of inventory they can't move. That's not what a distributor wants.'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Kaneda predicts Stern will dominate 2023 pinball market; no boutique manufacturer has competitive title pipeline to challenge Stern's three cornerstone releases per year.

    medium · Kaneda: 'I just think Stern is going to clobber everybody next year. I do. I just, you know, I don't know who's got a great game on the horizon that's going to compete with what Stern has coming.'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Stern has cornered premium licensed IP; smaller manufacturers forced to pursue original IP (American Pinball, Dennis Nordman's Galactic Tank Force) which has historically struggled to match licensed game sales. Disney holding Tron/Pirates licenses pending 2023 property revisits.

    high · Drew: 'Disney is holding off on renewing licenses for tron and pirates of the caribbean until the year 2023' and discussion of why original IP (Dialed In, Galactic Tank Force) underperform vs. licensed themes.

  • ?

    industry_signal: Spooky's Charlie handed company to his children; first games (Halloween/Ultraman) showed quality/management gaps; represents risk of founder-to-next-gen transitions in boutique pinball manufacturing.

    medium · Kaneda: 'Charlie's handed the company over to his children, and that's great. It's the American dream. Are they capable of making a game that's worth $8,000 to $10,000 in the current marketplace?'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Kaneda recommends Jersey Jack leverage high-demand existing titles (Pirates, Wizard of Oz) rather than launch new titles at inflated pricing. Remastered games have proven secondary market hold compared to new launches.

    medium · Kaneda: 'You've got something people want. Make it... if they're smart, they've got to rerun Pirates.' Discussion of WoZ consistently selling $12K+ used and Dialed In at $8.5K vs. Toy Story CE at $13K used.

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Unclear which manufacturer owns Sonic the Hedgehog pinball license. David Fix (American Pinball) claims Stern doesn't have it; speculation that Raw Thrills (connected to Stern family) may hold it, creating complex IP control landscape.

    low · Drew/Kaneda: 'Who do you think has the theme to Sonic the Hedgehog? It's got to be Stern... David Fix said Stern doesn't have it, but someone took it.'

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Boutique manufacturers structurally limited to one game per year at 1,500 units scale ($12M revenue at $8K MSRP) due to software coding bottlenecks, not manufacturing capacity. Two-games-per-year fantasy unsustainable without doubling R&D team.

    medium · Kaneda: 'if you're a successful year for you is selling 1,500 games a year... you only need one game a year... you need to have the right amount of personnel in the R&D department to make it work.'

    • 3:48
    You know, is every game good? You know, I look at it like imagine a movie reviewer that loves every movie. How boring is that? And so I think my show is a little bit polarizing because I will come right out and call manufacturers out when I think they do stuff that, you know, isn't really genuous or is deceiving or if they just make a bad game. You know, and I think that's pretty much it right now because I think I got a lot more fans than haters. I really do. And when my show was up, we had like 4,000 to 5,000 listeners and we've got a nice group in the club. And I think on my Facebook page is around 2,500 people there. We're all having a good time. Like no one's really lobbing personal attacks or having a bad time hanging out with Kaneda. No, I've watched a lot of your Facebook Live videos and even some of your detractors and haters, as you say, they participate, don't they? Yeah, absolutely. A lot of them are on there, which is great. But, you know, some people just seem to think that, you know, sometimes you're just poking the bear for no reason. What do you have to say to them?
    4:55
    I think there is a reason. I think it's, first of all, it's fun. I mean, we're all grown men. I was thinking about this. the average median salary in the world is roughly around $8,000. And here we are, all these grown men who are most likely doing okay for ourselves when we can buy these expensive toys. It's just fun. This is a distraction. This is a distraction away from all of the really horrible stuff going on in the world. And so I think for most of us, this is what pinball is. It's an escape from everything else we don't want to be dealing with. And it's fun. And I think pinball podcasting is fun. I think streaming is fun. And I think the games themselves are a lot of fun. So, you know, poking the bear, making fun of Bo Peep and Jersey Jack pinball for a $15,000 game that has about $6,000 in it. I'll poke the bear because it's fun. That's that's definitely fair enough. But let's talk about specifically one that you did a couple of weeks ago about this rant against TNA and spooky. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Yeah. So you, you, you kind of said that, you know, while you saw what they were doing as a business, you really just disagreed with how they went about it and the pricing. And I mean, where do you really fall on that? Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I look, I look at it through my own personal feelings, so I don't see a $9,000 gain there. So do I think they're criminal for asking it? Absolutely not. Do I think these non-refundable deposits that really Spooky was the first company that implemented them and has been keeping them going, do I think they're a company that needs non-refundable deposits to stay in business now? No. um but you know at the end of the day i encourage everybody if you want something and it's within your price range or you can justify spending that on the game by all means buy a tna for 9 000 enjoy it for me a single level game for nine grand in 2022 i think it's crazy now that's it but it's nothing personal against spooky remember this is a marketing decision that game sold three years ago for $6,000. So you're telling me three years later, four years later, I think it was four years ago. It's now 50% more money. Why? For what? For some armor? No. They're making more money.
    7:27
    Don't you think it's a little ironic, you being a marketing person? I mean, if they can get the money, they should go get it, right? Well, absolutely. Absolutely. Look, and again, I think Spooky is doing what Jersey Jack did. They tested the market. Now, they didn't fail as bad as JJP did with the Toy Story pricing, but they didn't sell all 250 in one day. It's still not sold out. We're now a week past the initial sale date. And so I think Spooky's, they had a successful day. Don't get me wrong. I think they sold over 100, maybe 150 in the first maybe hour. but here's the bigger damage happening and I think everybody agrees with this while they can do it and they might find people to do it and yes if someone has six or seven thousand dollars to buy a pinball machine they probably have nine thousand but here's my thing is nobody wants this Drew nobody wants us to now live in a pinball world in which the price of entry for simple games like single level games or Stern pros. Nobody wants a Stern pro to be over $7,000. It's about to be that probably next week. Why are we, this is what's weird to me. Why does the community celebrate companies charging more? And here's the argument. They're like, well, the company should get the price that the scalper is getting or the flippers getting. And I don't agree with that. I think if you try to remove all of the flipping and the value add that you've been giving customers, if you try to take that off for yourself as a company and you get it wrong, you're going to destroy your business and you're going to destroy your brand pretty quickly.
    9:07
    Rolex doesn't do it. Rolex knows they can go get $15,000 for a Submariner. They don't do it because they know if they do that and they hit when the market's hot, what happens when the market cools down? Everybody's gone. but isn't this a a classic case of take the money while it's good because it might not always be around absolutely look it is a short-term if you do it now it is a short-term um decision to make when the market is hot but what happens if the market starts to cool down here's why i like all these high prices though let me let me and i've been saying this for a while now the reason i like all of these companies pricing these machines around, you know, eight, nine, 10,000 for a spooky. The only thing left for them to do if they want to stay in business is they have to make great games. Consumers will not continue to support companies if they buy a game for 10 grand, nine grand, and they lose $2,000 overnight like Halloween and Ultraman. The pressure is on. And this is good for us consumers because even though we don't want to spend more, we better get more or everyone's going to walk away from these offerings. And we're seeing it right now. We're seeing it right now with Toy Story.
    10:23
    But you said it was a good decision for Spooky to do what they did with TNA. And now you're talking about Ultraman and Halloween. Should they continue with the non-refundable deposits going forward?
    10:38
    Look, I think non-refundable deposits are going to be here to stay. Here is the thing, though. I think everyone is getting wiser. if a company says your deposit is non-refundable, okay, like, you know, like that's their prerogative. That's how they want to do business. But what people I think are forgetting when Spooky did non-refundable on Halloween and Ultraman Drew, they didn't let us see the game at all. Like we didn't see anything. And I don't agree with that practice. If you're going to lock my money in, at least show me the game, right? Show me the game. Show me what's in the game. Show me what's on the play field. Show me what the code is like. Show me what the animations are like. But they purposely, I think, held back a lot of that, locked in 1,750 people's money. And then by the time you saw what you were going to get, there's nothing you could do. But I think now moving forward, I think when we see their next title, which I think is Scooby-Doo, I think they're going to show a lot more of the game because I don't think, and I mean this, I really do mean this. I don't think they're bad people. I don't think they want to do things that upset people. In fact, I know it's the opposite. Spooky wants to make everybody happy. So I think when I think moving forward, you're going to see them show more of the product before they ask for your money. And do you think they're going to sell out the next game in minutes like they did previously? If the game is great, it should sell out in minutes. What if they don't show it again? What if it's a similar? I don't think people I don't think people are going to just throw like let's say it's Scooby-Doo hypothetically right and they just say our next game is Scooby-Doo on the heels of Ultraman and Halloween they won't sell 1250 or 1750 Scooby-Doos sight unseen anymore I think Spooky lost the privilege to sell something sight unseen now if Keith Elwin said I'm coming out with Back to the Future that sells out sight unseen why because his last four games incredible. So I don't really worry that I have to see it because I know it's going to be great. And that's the difference. You have to earn that sort of credibility to, you know, for the buyers to have faith that I'm going to buy it without seeing it. But you've also railed a lot about, you know, theme, theme, theme and Scooby-Doo, we can all argue is probably a better theme than Halloween and Ultraman for pinball. You don't think that theme alone is going to, would, would take a game like that and just sell it out uh no i i think scooby-doo to me is a lot like ninja turtles right it's stuff we all grew up with or not all of us but most of us but aren't most of us true let me ask you a question how many of you and your friends get together and watch an episode of scooby-doo absolutely none you're yeah point point taken when was the last time you did well it's been a long time but there's also a lot of you know he man's another great example right it's a it's a cartoon from the 80s but that one might sell out day one yeah look and they will fall into this nostalgic campy sort of theme and don't get me wrong i think scooby-doo is a great theme for pinball it's campy it's fun it's colorful and it's also like you could see the modes, right? It's like the narrative of Scooby-Doo and trying to solve the mysteries and the mystery van and the Scooby snacks. It's all right there. But it just comes down to this. The young crew that made Halloween and Ultraman, it was their first time making a game. I mean, Charlie's handed the company over to his children, and that's great. It's the American dream. Are they capable of making a game that's worth $8,000 to $10,000 in the current marketplace? Because at that price point, you're competing with Stern Pinball and you're competing with everybody else because the dollars are the same. And I think everyone is starting to look at it like this. It's no longer, you know, we're just supporting the small guys and trying to keep them alive. Spooky's making a lot of money and they deserve it. They made it work. They made a company that couldn't even sell 150 games all the way up to a company that now sold out of 1,750 in one day. And that's an amazing feat in this industry.
    15:02
    I totally agree. But even at 1,500 games, you can't really think they're competing with Stern or trying to or thinking about it. Well, I don't think they're trying to compete with Stern. What I'm saying is they're competing for my $10,000 with Stern. Every pinball company is competing for a consumer's money, right? They're all in the... You think about it. Pinball Brothers wants me to buy Queen. I need... Home Pin wants me to buy Spinal Tap. Spooky wants me to buy their next game. Jerry wants me to buy Weird Al. All these games are around the same price. So they are all competing for Drew's money, for Chris's money. They're competing for our dollars. And so then if I look at it like that, all right, who's going to get my money? And I think most people are like this. They're going to buy maybe one or two games a year at most. Where does the money go? They're all competing.
    15:55
    Nope. That's very fair. Very fair. So what do you think 2023 is going to look like then? What do you think the market's going to look like? Refundable deposits? Yeah. What do you see going on next year? Yeah.
    16:07
    Look, I don't really know the titles coming out from each manufacturer. You say you do. Yeah, I know a bunch. You know me, though. Come on, Chris. Let us know. Tell us what you know. I'm right until I'm wrong. And then when I'm wrong, I delete the post. But so here's the thing. I think in 2023, we are going to continue to see more and more delays, I think, for the smaller guys. I just think, and I'm just going to say this, I just think Stern is going to clobber everybody next year. I do. I just, you know, I don't know who's got a great game on the horizon that's going to compete with what Stern has coming. I used to think Jersey Jack might have that home run game, but if it's Eric and it's Godfather, I don't know. I'm really nervous because I still think when we look at Toy Story and Jersey Jack Pinball used to be, you know, sort of like the last great hope. They were sort of the the Gandalf the White. They were supposed to march in and show us what was possible within pinball. and the reason why I think all of us are starting to look at Toy Story as maybe an indicator of what direction they're going in and that's not what I think people wanted. I think they wanted Jersey Jack to really put as much as possible in the games and pack them and I think they're going to go back there. I think all of this that we're seeing right now, Drew, this is the Jersey Jack that Pat Lawler wanted to build. He wanted this kind of company. This isn't what Jack Winari wanted to build. And there's too many stories behind the scenes from people who won't go on the record that indicates that. But what I think they're going to do, I think they're going to eat a lot of humble pie with this Toy Story launch. And I think they're going to go back to making their games more fully featured. I also think they're going to go back to revisiting wide body games. And I think if they're smart, they've got to rerun Pirates. It's like the silliest thing ever. You've got something people want. Make it. so you think even with their new very high price that they're not okay selling half as many units because you know they're still they're still making a lot of money on those games they have to be yeah they're but they're in big trouble and i'll tell you what the big problem with jersey jack is right now even though you know jack went on some podcast and said they made 30 million dollars and sales in one day. Okay, but what's happened since Jack made that proclamation on day one? What didn't we know on day one, Drew? I'll ask you. On day one, wasn't the vibe a little different for Toy Story? Well, yeah, we weren't 100% sure what it was going to be, what it was going to look like, right? And what's happened since then to the game?
    18:54
    Well, there's been a lot of streams, and the feedback's been, I'm not going to say terrible, it's just been lackluster. Right. Now, what's happened to the price of the game, though? Well, it went up. Oh, you mean in the secondary market? Yeah, what do you mean it went up? Well, no, I thought you meant from their last release.
    19:15
    No, CE's are still available. Okay, so the CE, which was MSRP at 15 grand, now on the used market, new in box, people are trying to sell them for 13 without buyers. Right? Problem there, right? And they haven't even made what? They've probably made 50 out of 1,000. Then you got the LE, which is 12,000, which are now selling for around 10 to 10.5. So here's the problem they faced, Drew. So now Jersey Jack has said, moving forward, this is the new standard of pricing for our games. Did they say that specifically? They didn't say specifically, but I would assume it is, right? Because have we ever seen a pinball company in the history of pinball lower their prices? No, but depending how this shakes out, they might have to. Right. Well, this is the quagmire they're in, is right now, they thought they were probably going to have, I would say, a good six to eight months of strong sales for Toy Story. The game is already sort of flatlined in terms of demand. And now you've got distributors who are basically on the hook to buy all of these LEs and CEs, right? But I don't think they have customers waiting for those games. And so here's the issue that's going to happen is, are they going to make all these collector's editions and make these distributors take possession of them? And then you've got distributors sitting with a lot of inventory they can't move. That's not what a distributor wants. They don't want to have a warehouse full of games. They want games to come in and already be on their way out because someone wants it. So this is the quagmire for JJP. is the Toy Story, I don't know how they get excitement going for the game again. And so then the question becomes at what point do they start to think about we need to get another game on the line Now it doesn necessarily have to be Eric next game if it not ready But I think they need to pull what Spooky does. I think they need to go rerun a game where there is demand. But, Drew, here's the really interesting question. What if they rerun an older game? Are they now all $12,000 and $15,000 depending on the trim? It's a lot of money. You know, if you buy two Jersey Jack CEs now, you're in on $30,000 plus tax and shipping for two pinball machines. So they've got to be amazing. They've got to be something that you don't ever want to let go.
    21:45
    Hmm. Now, you bring up an interesting point. Do you think they would ever go back to the wild? I mean, like dialed in, they don't need a license. They can just make that one. They can make more dialed in. um everything is gettable uh i heard that disney though is holding off on renewing licenses for tron and pirates of the caribbean until the year 2023 as that is when they are revisiting those properties which is why as canada has said on canada's pinball podcast um tron vault will be coming next year which is a strong rumor i've been hearing um but you know they can like dialed in is probably the last game I would remake if I were them. I would try to get Pirates back on the line. If you can't get more Pirates on the line, you know, there's probably a market for some new in box Wizard of Oz's. There just will be. Like as Jack always says, like he could always sell more Woz's. No, I do agree with that because if you look at the secondary market, I mean, those things are not going for less than 12,000 these days. Yeah, they've held their value, right? And when you look at dialed in, the problem is you could go get a dialed in for cheaper than 12 or 15. Yeah, they're about $8,500 now. Yeah. Which, you know, you just – I think the thing too, you just put that dialed in next to Toy Story, right? It's just – it's bonkers that the CE is twice the price of a dialed in. It's just not there. No, I agree. I think the only thing that people didn't like about dialed in was the theme. Yeah, a strange theme to bring Pat Lawler back to pinball.
    23:29
    But, you know, it's it's a it is a good game. It's just, you know, we want machines that were emotionally attached to. And I just I think it's really hard to do original IP. in in today's world absolutely especially with all the like you said when you look at in a vacuum and you're with stern you know and all the great themes they have because we can argue all day about you know how the layouts are and this and that but they're all really great themes oh absolutely i mean stern's got the whole market corner they got they bought all of the good themes probably locked up even if they're not going to make it they probably have the theme locked up Let me ask you a question, Drew. Who do you think has the theme to Sonic the Hedgehog? It's got to be Stern. Like, what is – David Fix said Stern doesn't have it, but someone took it. If it's not Stern, I mean, I can't – you know, maybe JJP. But even that, it just doesn't seem like a game they would be in on, but it's hard to say. Wasn't Stern Pinball one day referred to as Sega Pinball? Weren't they all the same company? Yeah, Data East, Sega, it was all kind of one thing. I mean, come on. Who do you think called over to Japan and was like, wait a minute, and then all of a sudden it's Stern's? See, if it's not Stern, I think Raw Thrills has the pinball license for it, and that's just another way for Stern to have it because it's a family affair. You said Raw Thrills? Yeah, because doesn't like Sharp's brother work at Raw Thrills? Oh, yeah. Yeah, you're right. Yeah. I totally forgot about that, but yeah, that would actually make a lot of sense. Yeah. So do you think – let me ask you. Do you think Dennis Nordman's original IP? this galactic tank force game i mean how does that how does that succeed when we've got james bond coming out in four days i still can't believe that american pinball is still going down that path yeah because you know they're they're obviously well funded you know with mckesson's company and i just don't understand why they just won't get any theme you know there's lots of great themes out there that, to my understanding, don't cost a ton of money. Yeah. Yeah. No, it's not 1996 anymore. You can't do it. And people forget all these old designers who had original IPs, they also worked on licensed properties and operators back in that period were just buying anything you have. The next Bally Williams game, give it to me, give it to me, give it to me. um but what what are pat lawler's two biggest hits of all time licensed theme games without a doubt and american pinball has yet to have that you know home run where they sell out in a single day um i mean yeah and and it's just weird to me that they're rerunning houdini it's like we need to stop like david fix take the company forward stop looking back and and it's just I'm looking forward to seeing the new American pinball vision. I hope they change the back box, but I just think they need to bury the past, like start making new games people want. And look, Dennis Norman is a great designer. He has a lot of great following within the community. And if this is something really unique and special, and again, here's the greatest part. If it's an amazing pinball experience that gives you value, they'll find buyers. They will. no i think i think american pinball games are are great i mean like i said they're built very well and they obviously have the manufacturing piece so they're they're just missing some some great themes they also made a humongous marketing mistake they they should have had this game ready to go in front of legends of valhalla and they should have hit the window in which stern wasn't making new games i think all of these boutiques it's amazing drew they all slept while Stern was busy catching up on their orders and nobody got anything good out. Do you think that they're consciously thinking that or do you think they're just playing their own game? If they're not consciously thinking that they shouldn't be in business. Well, no, I understand that argument. But what I'm saying is their boutique companies, you know, they don't obviously need to sell the scale that Stern does. Sure. You know, they can get away with selling three or four hundred games and make some money. But I'm just wondering how much they actually consider that stuff. Right. Well, I think – look, you're right, and I'm being a little bit too strident. But the thing is – Whoa, whoa. Did you hear that? This is a poor man's exclusive. Kaneda is backtracking just a little bit here. Yeah. No, it's all I do. Come on. My life is always in reverse. The thing is this. I think they know though, right? They know Stern is going to come out, right, with their three cornerstones a year. And so they have at least that to go on, on when's a good time for us to release our game, right? You kind of don't want to release your game anywhere near a Stern launch. I wouldn't. Would you? No, no. And you're right. But once again, we're back to the original question that if, you know, if you have a theme that people want, you know, then you can compete with anybody, right? Or you should be able to. And then the next question is, who's going to be the next company that gets out two games a year? Because it just hasn't happened, right? Yeah.
    28:57
    Everyone says they're going to do it. Yeah, I think Spooky could do it. I think if anyone could do it, I think it is Spooky. I think they have the ability at this point. I think they've made enough money. They have enough resources. I think they could have two design teams and two manufacturing lines set up to make two games. But what is the holdup? Why can't these companies do it? Or do you think they're just – go ahead. So here's the thing. I think while they could do it from a manufacturing standpoint, I still think it requires a lot of time when it comes to software and coding. And I do think that's the problem is unless you have like a robust coding team dedicated to each game, you can't really do it. Or you'd be making, you know, two unfinished games and you'd call them Halloween and Ultraman, which is what happened. I mean, this is what legitimately this is. This was like a half measure to getting two games out a year for them. Right. It was like two separately coded games with the same design. Right. Look at look at how that went for them. They clearly didn't have enough coders and software engineers to really do it right. And maybe they've learned their lesson. But if you really want to make two games in one year, you are going to have to have the right amount of personnel in the R&D department to make it work. So I don't – here's the thing though. Let's walk through the numbers of it though. Let's say – why would you need two games a year? if let's say if you're a boutique, a successful year for you is selling 1,500 games a year. You want to make and ship 1,500 games a year. Then you only need one game a year. It's just got to be a game good enough where you'll find 1,500 buyers. And then in a 12 month period, everyone who orders that game gets it. And then you unveil your next game. And that's how you spend each year selling 1,500 games. And let's say on average, They're $8,000, 8,000 times 1,500.
    31:04
    Isn't that like $9 or $10 million? It's not bad. It's not bad for a boutique pinball company. $12 million actually. Yeah, see, I can't do math. That's why I work in public relations. $12 million, it's not bad. It's even better when you're in Benton, Wisconsin, right? And the rents are cheaper and the home prices are cheaper. So I think it's not about quantity. It really is about quality. And the ultimate thing, and we're learning this, one good game is better than five years of mediocre crap, right? One Godzilla is better than seven boutique games that you want to get rid of in six months. And so if I was a boutique, that's what I would say. I would have a big writing on the wall. How are we going to make a game that's going to be remembered in 10 years? not how are we going to like lock people's non-refundable deposits in hoodwink them with some artwork are we good enough to make a game that 10 years from now it'll still be a game that people say is great and that should be the north star for everybody but but do you think that one of these companies is going to get the two games a year well if you just well drew what i was just saying is they don't need to well i know they just need one great game like look at They're going to do it. Yeah, but see, I don't know why they say that. See, when they say that, that's like, I'm going to sleep with two girls this year instead of one. It's like it doesn't make you any cooler because if the one girl you're sleeping with is super hot, who cares if you slept with two mediocre girls? That's how I look at pinball. I hate to use those analogies, but it's true. And this is what – when David Fix gets up there and says, we're going to have four lines going, everyone is like, dude, why? Nobody wants you to make four games. Just make one great game. The only time it would be necessary to have two lines is I think you have your current game on the major line, right? Your most relevant new game, that's a hit. And then your secondary line should be what you make a prior game that still has demand, right? To me, that makes sense where I could buy TNA from Spooky and I could buy their new product. See, here's what doesn't make sense about Jersey Jack. You can only buy one new in box game from a pinball company that has a portfolio of what, seven games now and has been around for 10 years. And they won't even sell me 90 percent of their portfolio that they know how to make.
    33:38
    That's not how I would do it. And that's not what Stern does. They always have like five or six games going. Sure. And I know Stern especially owns a lot of licenses, but now with their deep catalog and their huge following, why aren't they starting to just keep making those games? Because they can't even make the games today that they have orders for. Yeah, no, that's true. But, you know, and then once again, I know we talked about the Pirates license and how there might be some holdup. But, you know, why wouldn't JJP just throw those on the line and charge the $15,000 for that? Because people would pay it for that. Absolutely. I mean, I don't know. The word I got, and this might have been in episode 500, people, it's coming one day, was that Leonard was just pissed off that people didn't recognize the game when it was available. And he was just like, fine, then you're never going to be able to get it again and just pull the plug on it. I'm not sure if that's true or not. Sure. Just an ego thing. Yeah, it's just like, you know, I'll make you regret not, you know, going in on our games in the future. And, you know, he's kind of right because everybody sat on that game for a year. And then, you know, they're now $25,000 to $40,000 machines, which is bonkers. What do you think they could legitimately charge for an LE right now? uh you know ellie i think for an ellie of pirates you're looking at like 15 okay okay yeah and it looks like a 15 000 game and toy story looks like a six thousand dollar game that's the problem they have right now it's so like i try to wake up every day and be more positive about toy story i really do i really do but i i just i can't warm up to the fourth movie being the only game they made it just doesn't make any sense to me i don't know it was a bad marketing decision If you told me you could only make Toy Story 4, I wouldn't have made it. I would not have made it.
    35:38
    Would you have, Drew? Drew, would you have made it? If they're like, you can only make the fourth movie. No, no, not at all. Because, I mean, when you, you know, even if they would have made the same game but called it Toy Story, that actually would have been better. I don't know why. You know what I mean? It was just the whole. How would that have been better? Well, not better. Perception wise. because at least it would have been toy story right oh but that's more like deception then well well what did we get anyways you know i'm not i don't want to sling mud here but um no i obviously i would have wanted you know more of the first film in there right i mean because that was the one that everyone fell in love with if you just made the first film the claw pizza planet you know buzz that's all you needed that's all like you only need matrix one you don't need all the matrixes but if you only make matrix three or four yeah it's not going to work but let's let's play devil's advocate here let's say what if what if it was like jurassic park where they just kind of made their own story and just called it toy story yeah well they could have been okay with that they yes they could have done that um they could have got away with that because you know then you're taking people on a whole new toy story experience It's hard to do that, right? It is hard to do that and do it well. And I would say that I think Stern succeeded. There were a lot of people complaining about Stern's approach with that game. I was one of them. And I was wrong. I mean, they really did make a phenomenal Jurassic Park pinball experience that excites both fans of the franchise and pinball fanatics. I think Toy Story satiates the pinball shooters. The game shoots good. It's probably Jersey Jack's best shooting game. but it's an absolute letdown on for fans of the franchise and and for just from a value standpoint i mean this is the big conversation of 2022 it's just value i mean we're we're okay spending the money but i need to see it sure but we can also assume that i mean jersey jack they obviously still made a lot of money on this on this release sure absolutely but they also i think they um while they made money they have lost their community they have i think they've lost their fan base i i think they're a company right now that while they there's an old you know you can pump your stock up because you you you had a big sales day but it's not about just getting that one moment they need to make sure that they can sustain this and they can sustain toy story sales. So I just think more people are bummed out. I think I have a lot of friends, Drew, they won't say this, but I'll say it for them. They're going in on the game and they're begrudgingly handing over checks for 12 and 15 grand. And they're kind of like, if I could get out, I would. The real test is this. If Jersey Jack pinball offered refunds on Toy Story tomorrow, how many people, Drew, do you think out of a thousand would ask for their money back on the CE, knowing that now they're selling for 13? I think I would have to say at least half. I would say 100% because they would see now that you could get it for 13 on the secondhand market. Well, yeah, I guess. I mean, if you look at it that way. But I also think there's obviously some people that just like the theme and like it and they're going to buy it. Now, when Stern released Godzilla, Ellie, and if they said, hey, we'll refund your money, how many people would ask for a refund? Yeah, it would have been zero. Zero. Yeah. And that's it. It's the ultimate sort of measurement of real success. It's not just money. You've got to also win over the hearts and minds and souls of your buyers. And I think Jersey Jack, while they have my money – because remember, Drew, they have my money. Canada gave a check for CE. They have my money and they've lost me emotionally and they've lost me as a fan right now. They can win me back with a great title, but that's not where you want to be in business. You want to have both things. You want to win the consumers over and you want to make them happy and you want them to want to give you their money, not feel like you locked it in. There's another layer to this that a lot of people don't know. People like me, I learned this recently because I'm not a CE buyer, but a lot of distributors will take you off the list if you back out, right? It depends on the distributor. They'll take you off their future list if you back out? Yeah. I mean, look, fine. Joe Newhart, who's a good friend of mine, I bought my game through him. He's not doing anything like that. I mean, if you want to take me off – here's why I'm not worried about getting on the next list for the next CE. Because if it's 1,000 of them and they're making – and they're $15,000 a pop, I'm not worried. I absolutely can wait. If you just survive the day one FOMO, and let's talk about James Bond after this, right? Because we're going to see all that FOMO in like a few days. If you can just survive that day one FOMO, you'll be fine. But let's talk about Bond, right? What do you think happens on Tuesday with Bond? Well, first things first, for people who don't give you money every month, tell our listeners what you know about Bond and what you think is going to happen with the different troops. levels and yeah everything that you think you know yeah yeah so i i've been back and forth with this game um but here's what i know and i think this is going to be accurate um it is going to be based on multiple movies they are going to be uh sean connery error james bond movies that is what i'm hearing um there will be art packages on each game that will be indicative of the films so maybe it's doctor no maybe is that is that a movie i think so yeah i'm not a big bond family Yeah, Thunderball. Golden Eye, I think, is one of his. Never Say Die. Yeah. So, like, there will be each – here's what I think they're going to do. I think they're going to do different art packages. We'll have, like, the different movies. Wait, first of all, is this a Kapow title? So here's where it gets interesting. So, look, George Gomez said on an interview yesterday – he was doing a Facebook Live – that he is doing the three cornerstone versions of the game, and then there is a very exciting surprise coming Now I am on the record with my credibility which doesn exist for most people but I on the record for saying I think there going to be a fourth edition a special like 60th anniversary edition of the game that features all the Bonds and is going to be like an SLE. And I think Joe Kamikow is involved in this. He is the biggest James Bond fan, Drew. he has that but you're saying just that one trim level yes i think that is that is how they're going to do it and like i don't even know if they're going to call it kapow or not because kapow is like you know more of like batman branding but i know that's joe's like thing but i think you're going to see it i think you're going to see a limited edition fourth model here's the part that's really interesting i am hearing that the fourth edition is a different game than the three that are coming out in pro premium and le trim like a different gameplay experience okay which has never been done before no no certainly not and uh what what do you anticipate pricing to be for those uh for the sle well any of them yeah so here's what here's what they'll do well okay so stern is going to raise prices on all of their games i'm expecting a 400 price increase so 7200 for a pro yeah around there right like was 11.5 then for an le i think the last ones were yeah just a hair under 11 maybe yeah so i think we're gonna see it around there um stern is smart like they've slow they always slowly do these price increases in increments of a few hundred bucks you know notice how they didn't do like jersey jack like 2500 increase well except with godzilla they went up 1100 yeah that was that was the big one still jersey jack doubled that right yeah true and also also you know what was key notice the game stern did it on they did it on what is arguably their best game ever and jersey jack did the price increase on what is arguably their most barren game ever can't do it like that you can't you got to make sure, right? You got to make sure that you're lining those things up properly. Okay. So then I think the Kamikau edition, right? The impossible to get for the multi-millionaire guy who has to have it all. I think you're going to see this game go 25 to 30,000. And I think what they're going to do is this. They're not going to set a price. We saw this with Elvira. they're going to allocate them to their distributors probably for around 15 to 17.5 and then let them set the price you you think there's going to be more than 100 of those i think the less than 100 okay i think it's either 60 for the 60th anniversary of james bond okay Or even crazier, did they make just seven?
    45:06
    I was just about to say that. Double seven, if they did that and charged like 30 grand. And people are like, Kaneda, you're an idiot. I hear it all the time. It doesn't make business sense. It doesn't make financial sense. The thing people are forgetting is Joe Kamikow is a financial powerhouse. If he wants to do this, he can do it. If he wants to finance this game, he can do it. it's not this none of this is about financial sense when you get to these creme de la creme you know ultra exclusive versions it's just about like bragging rights and it's just about throwing a bone to the distributors and i think stern's going to do this because i think they want to make up for all of those months they didn't have anything new for well throwing the bone to the distributors you know stern you can say a lot about them but they are pretty good to their distributors um great to the distributor yeah absolutely and again look and stern games i want to say this they've been they've been really good lately right oh they're they're amazing i bought the last couple they were so good yeah and and so like you know other than like i know the only thing that hurts distros is they have to they have to agree to buy a certain amount of premiums and pros when they get their le's and i know a lot of distros are like chris i can't move these mandos and these rush premiums. And every distributor has them now. Every one. Yeah. And it's like, well, I don't know what to tell you. You know, the other interesting thing, and we'll see if this happens in 2023, are we finally going to see distributors and manufacturers sell last year's inventory and put it on sale? Like, you know, at what point? Like, you go to get a car, last year's model, they'll give you a discount. And we don't see that in pinball. It's like a Mandalorian premium is going to be worth 9,000 forever. Like at some point, you know, you've got to adjust it with the market. No, we've, we've already seen a little bit of that. There's some distributors on pin side selling for, you know, like, like 200 less, you know, so it's, I want a bigger deal than that. Well, I know, but it's, you know, it's, it's happening and you're going to, you're right. You're going to see more of that. But now, you know, most, I'm going to go out on a limb here and say, most of our listeners, chris are not going to be able to afford the 007 version yeah so why don't we talk about what's going to be in the regular version yeah what do you think uh i think you're going to see well we know that there's going to be the aston martin with the ejecting seat which gomez already confirmed now do you think that's going to be in every every trim level uh yes okay wait maybe uh yeah i hope so here's what i'm worried about now when he's i just hope that it ejects a ball from the sunroof of the aston martin i did not that that just makes so much sense but this is this is so as i was walking to work today i'm like i hope they don't do it like krang and ninja turtles or that little icarus and led zeppelin where like you hit the db set db5 and it just pops the guy up and down like i oh you know what i'm saying like yeah that would be terrible i think people forget sometimes that there's always that element of it's still going to be a stern you know like In our minds, like they're going to create the ultimate world under glass. So I think there's going to be that. I think you're going to see it looks like George held up the scuba diver from Thunderball. So like the underwater, there's probably going to be an area of the game where, you know, you're battling either sharks or underwater like henchmen, if you will. I do get the sense that there's going to be some sort of Batman 66 rotating area where it rotates for you to battle each villain. I'm not sure, but I think there's going to be some way in which Stern puts every villain into the game and they have their own area. The other thing that might happen is – and this has never been done before – is where you actually interchange the mechs to reflect the movie.
    49:03
    And so you can take out like a mech and replace it or a character and replace it with a different character to sync up with the film you're playing. Not sure they're going to do that. Seems kind of complicated. Seems kind of terrible for like operators to do that.
    49:17
    But I don't know these movies as well as I know some other franchises. So I don't know, like, okay, here's what's going to be in it. I think you're going to play as James Bond. I think the villains are going to be represented. And most of the mechs and the areas will represent, you know, either the villains or James Bond and his gadgets, if you will. Who's doing art on this? Do we know? No clue. Do we think it's going to be one of the celebrated artists or it's going to be somebody new? It's not going to be Yeti. I think they're going to use art from the iconic James Bond movie posters. I think you're going to see that carried through. Okay. So not Photoshop, but it's going to be kind of nostalgic in the way that it is. Yeah, I think that's what we're going to see. I mean, like, everybody wanted Franchi on this game. Like, let's be honest. Like, he would have been perfect.
    50:08
    And it sucks. And I still, to this day, you know, wish he was still making Stern machines. now i i don't want to get too far out into the weeds here but do you i mean there's there's still a pretty pretty big riff there i know he's he had george on his show you know a couple months back i always like i know he came out he came out recently and said like he wasn't doing bond part of me feels like he's just trolling us and he's actually doing bond but um i i think um it's gary man it's gary's the one who's mad it was all about the beatles artwork and well him and him and George seemed very chummy, and that was just a couple months ago. Yeah. Well, the thing is, no, George loves Franchi. George would want Franchi on. I think it's Gary. I think Gary just, you know, I heard – Oh, there you go saying controversial stuff again, Chris. I don't think it's controversial. I think when you burn Gary or he feels like he was burned, I think he just – he's, you know – I think what happens, you know, Stern is bigger than any one person. And I think when you join Stern, I think everyone has to understand that, that they'll survive without you, but your chances of surviving in pinball without them are not as good. And they know that. Yeah, that's true.
    51:22
    That's true for every industry leader though, right? Absolutely. And you got to protect that and cultivate it. And it's hard because everyone gets excited and everyone wants to talk. And, you know, and look, I'm sure Stern is like every major company. I'm sure there's people there that hate each other. I'm sure there's politics. I'm sure there's drama. At the end of the day, nobody knows how to make, ship, reveal, execute pinball better than Stern.
    51:49
    That's true. So why aren't these other companies following their lead? Because they don't have their George Gomez. I say it every single time. George Gomez is probably the smartest, the most intelligent man in every facet of pinball. And I know people think I rag on Stern. And I had the pleasure of sharing a taxi with George Gomez a few years ago back from TPF to the airport. I've spoken to him at the different steakhouses. And the man is just like a little bit short of maybe a genius. You know, have you ever seen George Gomez's like notebook, Drew? No, but I've spent a little bit of time with him and he definitely has a way about him. He just understands it all. And not only that, his drawings, his engineering knowledge, his manufacturing knowledge, and also his ability to navigate all the egos and personalities and get it all done. I mean, I can't even imagine how difficult it is to manage the entire process between, you know, having to get thousands of parts in one place at one time, deal with artists and designers and coders and keeping everything on schedule and doing that three to four times a year and making it work. And so he and he's got a creative vision for Stern. And I always say this, when you look at most pinball companies, let's ask this right now, who's the creative visionary over at Jersey Jack Pinball?
    53:17
    We don't know because there's so many people working there. But who's running the – like it used to be Jack, right? We used to say Jack is leading the creative vision of Jersey Jack Pinball. Do you still think Jack is doing that?
    53:31
    No. I think in recent years, a lot of it was probably Pat Lawler, right? Yeah. I would agree. And this was Pat's creative vision, and it's not really working out. And so American Pinball, who's the creative lead over there? Fix is in charge, but as far as creative, once again, I don't know. George Gomez's title is Chief Creative Officer, right? Mm-hmm. Which – yeah. Go ahead. Who's the creative lead over at Spooky? I would say Chuck and Bug probably, right? They have their vision. And I think Spooky, like out of all the companies, they've defined themselves. They've called themselves something. And their games reflect, you know, the company's DNA. And I think they're on a path. I would argue that their most popular games aren't Spooky themed at all. And they have a little bit of a, you know, dilemma on their hands. Do you still think they need to hire a veteran designer? It doesn't have to be a veteran. I don't think, you know, being older makes you better. I think they do need a better designer. Well, veteran meaning someone who's made five or six games or something. Yeah, I think they need to get more designers in there. I think from what we've seen with these first two games, they were kind of like lackluster. But I do hear the next game coming is better. They will learn from their mistakes. Who designed the next one? I think it's Bug again. I think it's Bug and the young crew over there. whether it's Luke and the new young team.
    55:05
    Look, it's going to take them a while, right? They're not going to come out. It would be hard for them to come out of the gate with a home run design. You know, look, Keith Elwin designed Archer in his basement. It became Iron Maiden, one of the greatest Stern shooters of all time. Keith Elwin is just, he's on a different level, right? Is Jack Danger's first game at Stern going to be as good as Iron Maiden? We shall see, right? This is going to be Jack's inaugural title. Eric's first game was Pirates. I think that was a really solid first effort. I don't think you'd find anyone who would argue that as a first pinball game that that's not a phenomenal thing to put to market.
    55:45
    It's just that competition now is harder than ever. And I think for Spooky, they do need to just learn not just from a design standpoint, from a coding standpoint. And their hardest part is they can't get people to live there. That's their biggest challenge. yeah but i mean in today's world though they don't necessarily have to live there right no not not at all like like jjp's coder and animators not isn't what in france sure i mean that's what i'm saying it's like they could they could still hire somebody and they don't have to pack up and move to wisconsin yeah so it's like we're all living in a remote world now but yeah i think everyone you know you need your george gomez you need to know how to manufacture And then you need to kind of know what the market wants, and it's a tricky business. The thing is in pinball is that so many of these companies are bankrolled by ancillary funds that it doesn't even matter if they make all these mistakes through. A lot of these companies can just stick around forever. Well, it seems like they are because, once again, some of these have dropped a few turds and they're still – Yeah. Look at the Cactus Canyon buyers right now. like wait like if you bought a cactus canyon le a year ago like why did they reveal the game what what do you think's going on with their manufacturing i have no clue i i have no line of sight i i think they revealed the game a year too early and you know we were talking about getting out two games or whatever they you know they can't even get out one game a year they're about one game every three years at this pace which um you know and i like cgc games i I think it's a great model, but I just would like to see them get to Tales of the Arabian Nights and get to Theater of Magic and all these other great games. Do you think they're going to get to that point?
    57:38
    The day after I die. I look at CGC like, sure, and fine. You're going to remake old games. I'm more interested in the new stuff they make because they have Pulp Fiction coming out and then they have a licensed property original game they've been working on with – I think they might both be Mark Ritchie.
    58:01
    So – but Ben Heck's game, it's – he was supposed to have a CGC game. And speaking to Ben, it's nowhere near the line. So it's like he's just sitting at a – he's staring at a whitewood in his basement for years. I don't know. CGC bores me. I got to be honest. I think the way they do their business lately, it's just boring. It's just why did you do what you did? Did you need the money? They didn't need the money, so then why did you reveal it if you can't make the game? Well, I'm kind of talking about going back to the well. They could make Medieval Madness and Attack from Mars forever probably. Absolutely. And they would just keep selling them. Totally. There's absolutely – and look, those are much better games. Mm-hmm. No, I totally agree with that, and I would buy a new run of Attack from Mars, but it doesn't seem like that's going to happen. If you could have one Stern Vault game, what would it be? Oh, probably Metallica. I want that one back. Okay. But no, there's a couple in there. ACDC would be another good one. There's a lot of Metallica. There's a lot of them out there. Those games are readily available. Now, would you want them to put them with LCD screens and sort of upgrade them in any way? Well, absolutely. That's what I'm talking about. If you're going to do that and go to that trouble, I think you should get it on the spike system, add the achievements, right? Yeah, yeah. Because that would be a big deal. I don't know. I'm not big into video games. I play them. I like them. The achievements are cool. But something about that Insider Connect, I'm a fan. I like it. I mean, I love it because I can take the glass off and be the best player in the world. Yeah, absolutely. um well yeah i think you know lord of the rings with a new screen oh don't get me i would i would spend 30 grand on a lord of the rings vaulted and also if they made ghostbusters and just fix the flipper gap there you go just take all of our money there you go but i want to change my answer if we're doing screens you know spider-man has been in my collection the longest now and i'm a big spider-man fan if they could do that with an lcd screen and insider connect forget it great isn't it amazing i think sometimes stern gets wrongfully indicted as not putting a lot of toys or stuff into their games and then you look oh wow i wonder i wonder who started that yeah no there's so many jerks on the airwaves with no knowledge of pinball but some of these games you know you look at spider-man lord of the rings look at acdc you know acdc the story's interesting is when um when gary saw when he saw wizard of oz that's what made him go to richie and say hey like let's load this up and show him what we can do and it's good i mean competition is good it's led there you know it's led to so many improvements in pinball i saw some silly comment though that's like if it wasn't for jersey jack stern would never have lcd screens okay sure like they were just gonna completely never upgrade yeah that's that's just silly I mean, we know what happened. You know, I don't know this for a fact, but I'm guessing they had to use up their DMDs, right? Because they had a bunch of them. And then, yeah, it was inevitable. I also think the screen size on Stern, I have to be honest, is better. I think when the screen gets too big, there's just too much going on. Now, it works if you simplify it. Like, I love the Guns N' Roses display because it's so simple and it just comes right at you. but some games like hobbit and pirate it's just too much like i don't know what to look at no agreed i i like jersey jack's little screens because it well i i know i know it's a big thing with toy story but all their games because it does tell you what to do yeah you know which which is very helpful like it is but some of these like some of these screens below the glass drew like it's like we're kind of old men it's hard to read i i don't disagree with that i i totally don't disagree with that but if it's functional and it actually serves a purpose yeah i think i think it's you know well well used uh real estate yeah no absolutely i'm surprised no one has put a screen across the back box area you know you know the far back of the game that's under the glass like you're right it's totally because what what would that really cost what would be the cost of materials and it you can make such a dynamic experience like imagine if that was like the stars and star wars and when you go to warp speed it like all the stars bleed it's like what no one's done that yeah you're at well you know there's a couple of uh mod guys that have been doing that stuff for like twilight zone yeah some of these old games and and they they look amazing yeah it's really cool it's it's a it's an area of real estate that is untapped if you will and and i think it's just a matter of time you know and once again with the the competition you're talking about and I really think, you know, if let's be honest, I mean, you know, we don't know if we're going to be in a recession and all these different things and I'm not going to get political here, but you know, there's going to be a little bit of a downtick. Yeah. You know, for, for, for many reasons, it's not going to be a bursting of a bubble or anything like that but you know I I look on pin side quite a bit and and the prices are starting to come down Yeah No matter how you slice it Yeah Well they went really far up for a long time And you know, you can't have every Stern LE now is worth like $12,000 to $18,000. Like, come on, Munsters. Yeah. Like, and I love the Munsters guys. Let's talk about these Munsters owners. Guys, the code is not where you think it is. Like these people are on the Munsters crack pipe like nobody else. And I've played it and I've played all, you know, Lyman's games and games with great code. Yeah, they made it a little bit better, but it's not now this masterpiece. No, Munsters is a fantastic location pin. It really is. You know, it's fun. It's campy. You know, it's easy to shoot, easy to know what you're doing. but you have it in your house and after a few weeks you're going to be like yeah it's just not for me i still think stern you know they originally had the black and white was supposed to be the le and i i just don't like what they did where they they made the premium black and white then you know the only full color game you could get was the le then what did they do drew then they made the black and white no then they made the color premium oh yeah that's right you know Yeah, but you know what I mean? Like they always do this. And then they added 100 more LEs. Remember that shenanigans? Oh, yeah, from 500 to 600. Oh, yeah, by the way. Yeah, it's like David Fix in his 500 Legends of Valhalla. Yeah, of all the things Stern did, that one was a little odd. Yeah, well, look, this is why Bond's going to be interesting, right? It's like how far are they going to increase the price?
    64:51
    You know, how many – Bond's going to be a day one sellout. What do you think? Oh, without a doubt. I think, once again, I'm not a huge Bond fan, but just, you know, based on what happened with Godzilla. And we know there's a ton of Bond fans out there, right? Oh, yeah. And diehards. And you're right. If they put this SLE for $20,000 or $20,000, they're just going to sell them. You know what's weird about this hobby and what it does to all of us? Like, even if we're not even remotely a fan of something. Like, I've never seen a single episode of Ultraman, right? Same. There's just something about like on the eve of a new pin, I will convince myself I need this. Oh, it's exciting. I put a TNA in the cart just to see if I could. Yeah, I did too. I still got one in the cart. They tried to sell them, but I've got like – I was going to put like $249 in a cart, see if I could just like freeze sales for a while. But it's just this weird thing of like this like I don't want to miss out on the fun. And I think that's a good thing. I want to say this. I think it's a really good thing that we all just want to feel like kids inside and we want to feel like there's a fun toy out there in the world that's going to bring us happiness. And we don't want to sleep on it. We don't want to miss the opportunity to own it. It's a fun hobby. And I love talking about it on Canada's Pinball Podcast on Patreon for $5 a month. You too can be a Canada Club member.
    66:13
    No, I'm glad you said that because that, you know, I've always appreciated when you talk about just, you know, how this is supposed to be fun. and it's not supposed to be serious. And yes, they cost a lot of money. But that's one of your takes that you've always been very consistent on. Yeah, well, and look, who am I always angry at? Not the manufacturers. Yeah, not the community, not all of us hanging out, having a good time. I'm mad at the companies. And when do I get mad at companies? When they ask for people's money and then they don't deliver. Or they say something. Yeah, give me an example where I've been completely off. I agree, but I was just about to say that, you know, for whatever reason, you know, half of half of my listeners, I didn't tell anyone you were coming on today because, you know, half of the people are going to say, what the hell are you doing? The other half are going to say, yeah, whatever. But, you know, you and I have always gotten along just fine. And like I said, while I don't always agree with you, I do appreciate some of your consistency and some of your takes, at least. Well, you know, it's interesting, right? So your listeners who are upset with me, I guarantee you, Drew, I've never had a single conversation with any one of them. I'm very, very positive of that. Yeah, it's like and then you're like, all right, so who's enjoying life more? The people that, you know, are prejudiced and just write you off as being toxic or, you know, you get to listen to my show, you get to know me. And I think everyone who does has a really good time with it. And I think, you know, you look at the, I mean, the diversity of people who listen to my show, it's manufacturers all listen to my show. Lyman Sheets used to love listening to my show. He used to tell me, you know, Chris, keep doing what you're doing. I didn't go like promote that. I just did right now. Yeah. God bless his soul. And I love Lyman. He's such an amazing human being. And, you know, it's just, it's, it's there to entertain. And I think that's the part, you know, sometimes people act like they're investors in these companies and they, how dare you like go after them? It's like, guys, we're the customers. We're the customers. They're the company. And if they said they're going to get me a replacement play field after I spent 12, five and the play field fell apart, shouldn't we stay on top of them? And who's going to stay on top of them? If not Canada.
    68:26
    Yeah. But like I said, some of your takes are very consistent, but sometimes, you know, you're a human, like, and we all do it, but you know, you, you have a larger audience. So it's, it's, it's amplified. Yeah. Well, not anymore. Right. Well, okay. But you know what I'm saying? So, you know, sometimes you say one thing and you rail on it for, you know, weeks or months. And then like, you know, six months later, you change your mind, which you can. And you're entitled to do that. And then people say, well, what the hell? You're a hypocrite. Yeah, and I'm getting labeled that right now with Toy Story. Everyone's like, Chris, you hyped the game. You told us this was Pat Lawler's greatest hits. You got everybody riled up. And then the game came out, and it's like, okay, I did because I was told that it was Pat Lawler's greatest hits, and I'm not making this stuff up. I don't wake up and create imaginary rumors about a game. But here's the funny part, Drew. Think about what I said, that this game was going to be Pat Lawler's final game. It's got to be a masterpiece, right? For this much money, it's going to be amazing. And guess what? You didn't know that. I didn't know it. I didn't see it. OK, but but isn't it more exciting to have that? Isn't that a more positive, optimistic point of view on the game?
    69:35
    Yes, but not when you're spitting it as fact. And I think some people thought you were spitting it as fact. OK, so then when that when the game gets revealed, who are you mad at? Me or Pat Lawler? Well, you're mad at Pat Lawler. You're the low hanging fruit because they aren't talking to Pat Lawler, right? Well, they should. Well, I don't disagree with that at all, but you can at least understand what people are receiving, right? But here's the thing about Toy Story, and I know I get hung up on this game, but it's still just from a marketing standpoint, the way they announced this game, like, we're going to give you your best shot to get a CE. Like, they saw the game. This is who I'm most upset with is, guys, you saw what you had. You knew what you had. And I know you still got to sell it because that's the job of, like, marketing and sales. but come on like maybe we dialed down the FOMO a little bit on this one and maybe we don't charge this much for it and I think if they had done that if they came out with 500 CEs of Toy Story and the LEs were still just like 10,000 or 10,500 or I think they're 11 now in GNR if they didn't do the price hike and they didn't make a thousand CEs a lot different reception to this game than you're getting right now yeah yeah maybe but you know a lot of people worked on it for a long time and they thought it was a a great game yeah you know and i'm not saying one way or the other because i still haven't played it but you know yeah um but you know it is what it is yeah no it's um look it's fun i i mean i like true i just want to say i really appreciate you being in the content creating game you know how it is you know how how hard it is at times when there's only like five new games a year and you got to make a show every week or, you know, and, and so you've been doing this now for what, like four or five years? Uh, three, three and a half. Yeah. Are there any times when you just like want to call it quits? Oh, absolutely. There's been, there's been several because like you said, either there's lack of news or lack of content or, you know, just lots of different reasons, but yeah, it's, uh, um, there, there is a lot of, you know, time put in and effort and, um, you know, there's always jokes about, well, Drew shows up drunk and does a show but you know there's there's it's it's a commitment you know i have a family i have a career just like everyone else yeah you know it's uh it's but but i enjoy it like you said it's it's fun for me for the most part yeah i tell it's not do you um do you with my decision to go behind the paywall you know after five years of free shows i was like i'm tired of doing it for free um and and i think no so like the decision to take the show behind the paywall you know after doing it for five years, you know, I, I just, I felt like it does take so much time, you know, to, to do the work and to do the, you know, the shows, the recording, the editing, the interviewing, the reading pin side, um, you know, and, and I, I'm very proud that enough of my followers came over. I mean, it brings me more joy almost than my, my career because I created this whole thing out of thin air and what do you think though about paying to listen hang on hang on one more second chris sorry I love it okay I love it now I was just saying we can just start over on that like I was just like yeah go ahead I just drew as a podcast or just curious what your thoughts are on Canada being behind the paywall and how come you haven't signed up yet? Well, to be honest, it's just, you know, I've thought about it because I really, really like your content. Like when it was free, I was listening to it all the time. Like I didn't miss a show. And then, you know, you listen to all the, you know, naysayers and stuff. And, you know, I know it's only five bucks a month, which I think is well worth it.
    73:44
    Which is kind of hypocritical for me to say because I'm not signed up, right? But I always feel like when I listen to your show, you always reference – are you stealing my content somehow?
    73:55
    What's that? Are people passing around my show without being close members? No. Not that I'm aware of. Yeah, I don't think you can the way it's set up. Yeah, I don't even know how you have it set up. But I – no, it's just one of those things. And once again, a lot of people that I talk to frequently in the pinball community, some of them say, yeah, I pay. or whatever, but most of them are like, ah, you know, F that. I'm not going to do that. And it's – like I said, it's a little conflicting for me because I think you should get paid. You know, like I said, we're taking time out of our day. We're doing it. It's only five bucks.
    74:30
    But then at the same time, everyone else is free, right? Yeah. Well, you get what you pay for. Well, and no, and you're not wrong. I mean, so and the fact that you have, you know, 500 subscribers, which, you know, there's people that do podcasts that don't get 500 listens. Five thirty three. Okay. Yeah. No, it's funny because every day I'm like, even when I lose just one, it does hurt me. Like, I'm like, oh, and I'll send people notes being like, what did you know? What happened? Like, how did I how did we fall out like this? But no, like I think every podcast out there is doing a lot of great work, a lot of hard work. Um, you know, part of the reason I took it behind the paywall was just, there's just too much, like people were like coming at me, like in my personal life, my professional life. And I just wanted it to be for fans of the show. Right. And it's, it's a nice little community and we have a good time. And look, people argue with me on the Canada club. Like, it's not like everyone there is just being like, you know, bowing down to everything I say. There's a lot of very opinionated people and I love it. And I love the, the back and forth. and you know i'm gonna be doing my saturday morning spectacular which is which is so much fun because there's no editing it's just like you know you hit record and you're not even record you just go live and you you just talk it's like talking in the shower and and it's great hanging out with everybody well i think that's one of your best you know media outlets yeah you know i mean the you know when i was referencing at the beginning of the show you have a lot of people that you've sparred with quite a bit over the years, right? Yeah. And they show up. Yeah. And they're there almost every time, right? Last night was interesting, right? So I was talking about Bond and then I see Jersey Jack Pinball is watching, you know, that it's like the super awesome tailgating party is watching. And it's funny because like I could see her watching and then when I call them out, they don't say anything. It's like really, it's really like I'm not that bad, guys. I'm really not here to like hurt any of your endeavors. I'm just here to have an entertaining show and keep everybody honest. And ultimately, I'm not making much money. You know, Jersey Jack, you put $30 million in the bank in one day. I've never done that in a lifetime. So congratulations. And, you know, when you create something of tremendous value like a pinball machine, you deserve to make money. And, you know, would I have loved to have a podcast where I'm talking about a more mainstream topic where I can maybe do it for a living? sure but this is just sushi money for brendan and myself and and that's that's pretty much uh you know what it is but it's great i want to just thank you know everyone who's followed drew and and ian might come back one day is that like a rumor yeah we we kick it back and forth he's doing good things in his personal life now so we're just gonna let him be for a little bit but yeah don't ruin that with yeah don't ruin it with this crazy pinball shit yeah um no he's he's doing well and uh no you're right though i i'm very thankful for the community and you know poor man's has built quite a large you know following as well which we're we're very thankful for and it's been a lot of fun and we've made a lot of great relationships yeah why can't i be a tribe member what's up with that well i told you half of the tribe members would leave yeah but i'm not even joking yeah no but it'd be a better tribe i don't know man like you know we just you know we we talk about different people all the time and and the tribe by the way is a super amazing you know i guess exclusive i mean there's there's less than 50 of us yeah and um that is something that's really great and uh no before i i didn't even bring it up and people are like just if you bring canada and i'm out so you know what's funny is like when i see the tribe at shows like we we always get along i'm not sure if like when i walk away they're like oh like it was painful for them to pretend, but everyone, when we get together in person, I'm probably going to be at expo. Are you going to expo? Yep. I'll be at expo. You were there. You were there when me and Zach burned the hatchet. Everyone just wants to get along. It's strange to me because you know, I've never had anyone come up to me and be like, I don't like you and here's why. There's never been an adult conversation about it other than CJ booing me at the Twippies that time. But other than that like if you have a problem with canada please by all means hit me up see even drew's dog doesn't like canada's people hang on hang on hang on hold that thought yes sorry i should have warned you my son was coming home i had to get him in oh no worries yeah i mean like we can we can wrap up now too so this show is just like around an hour which would be good yeah that's what i was my hope was but go ahead yeah yeah no i was just gonna say you know if if you have an issue with canada i would happily have a dialogue with you and let's let's talk it out I don't have any personal grudges against anybody, even though a lot of people have it against me. But trust me, I don't bite, and I love this hobby just as much as you do. Well, and I think really what it is, and I've given this a lot of thought, because quite honestly, this is probably a compliment in a weird kind of way. Like my brother and I are very different people, right? And you are a lot more like my brother.
    79:48
    Great guy. Well, no, no, no. I get along with my brother just fine. I love my brother, right? Yeah. But we're just very different people. And I think we live in a world where people see your posts on Facebook and stuff, right? And they make assumptions about you. Yeah. And you're a very public figure because you're on the airwaves all the time, right? So I think that's what's going on. And you're right. If people actually sit down and talk to you, they're like, well, yeah, he's not evil Kaneda. He's just a man. But some of it is funny. No, like my post today, I put up two pictures and it said a summary of pinball in 2022. And it's a beautiful picture of Sean Connery. And it says Bond, James Bond. And next to him, Bo Peep. Bo Peep. There it is. How is that not funny? No, I did see that. No, see, and that stuff makes me laugh. I do enjoy that stuff. But like I said, I just think we all rub somebody the wrong way at some point, right? And like I said, you just have a large audience, so you're going to rub more people the wrong way sometimes. Well, let me just say to half of the tribe out there that can't stand me, I'm coming for you. We're all going to be rocking Gucci. The tribe will be 20 people big. It's going to be a different tribe, Drew. You'll love it. You can make your pledge at Expo because I think there will be a lot of us there. So we should have a moment where I get I get the floor for five minutes to plead my case to be in the tribe.
    81:18
    Anyway, Drew, thank you so much for having me on. It's been long overdue and I can't wait to hear myself on another show because no one no one else will interview me. It's fun. Awesome. Have a great weekend, brother. All right. You too, man. All right.
    81:40
    Thank you. runs while others walk. He acts while other men just talk. He looks at this world and He wants it all.
    82:37
    So he strikes like thunderbolt. He knows the meaning of success. His needs are more so he gives less They call him the winner who takes all And he strikes like thunderbolt Any woman he wants he'll get He will break any heart without regret
    83:47
    His days of asking are all gone His fight goes on and on and on But he thinks that the fight is worth it all