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Ep 28: Laundry Day with Keith Elwin

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 2m·analyzed·Feb 20, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.033

TL;DR

Keith Elwin on Jurassic Park 1.0, minigame design, and tournament pinball philosophy.

Summary

Keith Elwin discusses Jurassic Park's 1.0 code release, the new Escape Nublar Challenge minigame designed for faster play sessions, design philosophy balancing casual and tournament players, and upcoming projects. He reflects on tournament strategy, Pinberg competition, and reveals a hidden fourth skill shot feature.

Key Claims

  • Jurassic Park 1.0 code has almost twice as much code as Iron Maiden

    high confidence · Keith Elwin directly states this during discussion of the 1.0 release burden

  • The Escape Nublar Challenge minigame was designed to keep social play sessions under 2.5 minutes to prevent players from abandoning the game during multiplayer

    high confidence · Keith explains his motivation: 'whenever I'm playing with people, people generally don't like playing with me... so you know that's to me that represents a problem in pinball'

  • A fourth hidden skill shot exists on Jurassic Park that unlocks something players 'will eventually notice'

    high confidence · Keith teases: 'We added a fourth skill shot to Jurassic Park after you get the double super skill shot'

  • DNA collection difficulty was revised in 1.0; some four-shot DNA were reduced to three, and some three-shot to two

    high confidence · Keith confirms adjustments made post-release during interview

  • Keith's design philosophy is: 'You should get mad at yourself for missing an easy shot, but you should also get excited if you make a hard shot'

    high confidence · Keith states this explicitly as his consistent design principle

  • Game 3 is designed and 'in the can'; Game 4 is at CAD stages

    high confidence · Keith reveals pipeline status when asked about his post-Jurassic Park schedule

  • Jurassic Park is described by others as 'the greatest thing that Stern's ever made'

    medium confidence · Host mentions hearing this comparison, but Keith doesn't fully endorse the claim

  • Keith won Pinberg championship last year and also won the Twippy for best game

    high confidence · Scott Larson's opening introduction confirms both accomplishments

Notable Quotes

  • “You should get mad at yourself for missing an easy shot, but you should also get excited if you make a hard shot. That will always be my design philosophy.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~49:00 — Core design philosophy articulation for all his games

  • “It's not the end mode. That's the thing. When Dinosaurs Rule the Earth is the actual wizard mode for beating the game. This is more of a story-themed wizard mode.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~24:00 — Clarifies misconception about Escape Nublar Challenge being a 'cheat' to access wizard mode

  • “I don't know why people think it's cheating... if this was a mode buried deep in a game where 1% of the pinball property is ever going to see it, I would have got no resources for it.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~27:00 — Resource allocation philosophy and explanation for accessibility minigame design

  • “I despise linear rule sets, so I will never do that.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~41:00 — Strong position on tournament game design avoiding repetitive shot strategies

  • “I like being told what to play, when to play it. I really like that as opposed to here's 12 games, pick five, just keep dumping money in, play it as many times as you want until you qualify.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~39:00 — Preference for match-play tournament format over qualifying formats

  • “We added a fourth skill shot to Jurassic Park after you get the double super skill shot. And this will unlock something that you may not notice right away, but you probably will eventually notice.”

    Keith Elwin @ ~44:00 — Hidden feature teaser that will drive community engagement and exploration

  • “It was quite an undertaking... there's a lot of code in there almost twice as much as iron maiden”

    Keith Elwin @ ~7:00 — Scope comparison explaining 1.0 development burden

  • “To me, scared stiff now... the tournament strategy is just get in a multiball cradle at the left and just keep shooting the left ramp over and over again. And to me, that doesn't make a good tournament game.”

Entities

Keith ElwinpersonJoshpersonScott LarsonpersonJurassic ParkgameIron MaidengameEscape Nublar ChallengeproductPinbergeventDwightperson

Signals

  • ?

    community_signal: Hidden fourth skill shot feature teased to drive community exploration and social sharing of discovery

    high · Keith intentionally withholds details: 'I'll leave it at that. Now everyone's going to rush out and start playing Jurassic Park as much as they can.'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Positive reception of Escape Nublar Challenge at location testing; players using credits to return to regular Nublar mode rather than repeating minigame, indicating designed behavior working as intended

    high · 'It was very positive... they were opening up, cheating into it, playing it. They won a free game and it was like I didn't want to play it again but I used my credit to play Nublar'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Keith criticizes linear tournament strategy on Scared Stiff (left ramp cradle repetition) and Tron as boring for audiences and players; advocates for exponential scoring that prevents simple chop-wood strategies

    high · 'to me, scared stiff... the tournament strategy is just get in a multiball cradle at the left and just keep shooting the left ramp over and over again. And to me, that doesn't make a good tournament game.'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Community misconception that Escape Nublar Challenge is a 'cheat' to access wizard mode; Keith clarifies it's a story-themed minigame separate from 'When Dinosaurs Rule the Earth' actual wizard mode

    high · Zach Minney (Flippin' Out Pinball) criticized minigame as cheating; Keith's clarification addresses resource allocation philosophy

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Keith Elwin's core design principle: balance easy shots (miss = self-blame) with hard shots (hit = excitement). Explicitly avoids linear rule sets and repetitive tournament strategies

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.187

0:00
Thanks for tuning in to the Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. We are on episode number 28. Today, I've got my co-captain with me. Scott Larson. And Scott, will you do us the honors of doing the intro of who is with us today? Well, I think I introduced him last time, but I will continue. This is the man who last year had the single best year in pinball history. He not only won the Twippy for the best game, he also released what will be one of the best games coming up, and he also won Pinberg, and he also decided to ride a unicorn. We have Keith Elwin. Thank you. Hello. Not a bad year, right? I know, right? Not at all. That's a fantastic year. It's a little better than my year, and my year was pretty good. That's good. Oh my goodness. It's been a little bit since we've had you on, Keith. Some things have happened. I mean the last time we had you on, we were joking about dinosaurs and then Jurassic Park came out.
1:09
Yeah, that was all unscripted too. You guys just kept talking about it. So I was like, all right, we'll talk about the day to use Jurassic Park. Yeah, let's lean into it. Okay, well Josh, you did have the day to use Jurassic Park back in the day. Yes, I did. And at least there was a reason for it. Yeah, I think you had just picked it up, and you kept talking about it. And so I'm sitting here thinking to myself, huh, all right. You guys are trolling me. We're trolling the troll, yes.
1:39
Not the troll. You're the goat or the kid. We keep hearing you called the kid now. Yeah, the kid. The kid. The gray kid.
1:50
How's the weather in Chicago? Is it still freezing there? I haven't seen the sun in months. So do you have to wear leggings over your shorts?

Keith Elwin @ ~40:00 — Critique of linear game design in tournament context

Mark Guidarelli
person
Stern Pinballcompany
Rickperson
Lord of the Ringsgame
ACDCgame
Metallicagame
Draculagame
Brom Stoker's Draculagame
Judge Dreddgame
Scared Stiffgame
Trongame
Logan's Arcadelocation
Pinball Twippiesevent
Doug Polkperson

high · 'You should get mad at yourself for missing an easy shot, but you should also get excited if you make a hard shot. That will always be my design philosophy.'

  • ?

    event_signal: Pinberg tournament opening Saturday at noon Eastern; Keith Elwin (defending champion) has no priority registration despite championship win; hosts advocate for VIP/priority registration for top-ranked players

    high · Discussion about lack of returning champion perks; suggestion that top IFPA players should have priority access like American Ninja Warrior format

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Keith Elwin actively involved in production quality control, visiting factory line to spot-check machine builds and provide guidance to assembly staff on mechanical tolerances

    high · 'I still have to go out on the line and spot check them now and then... how is this control room feed supposed to feed... you'll have to go out there and tell them exactly what it's supposed to do'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Escape Nublar Challenge minigame added post-release to address social play pacing and game accessibility, designed as 2.5-minute alternative to 30+ minute full game

    high · Keith explains the feature was planned as internal cheat but implemented as public mode to address multiplayer play abandonment and support location operators

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern design pipeline confirmed: Game 3 complete and in production; Game 4 at CAD design stage

    high · Keith states 'Game 3 is designed. It's pretty much in the can, and I'm working on Game 4 at the CAD stages.'

  • ?

    product_concern: Post-release code iteration on DNA collection difficulty, reducing some 4-shot sequences to 3-shot and 3-shot to 2-shot based on internal feedback that difficulty was 'ridiculous'

    high · Keith confirms 'some of them were pretty ridiculous... some that were four shots, I made three. Some that were three, I made two.'

    • 2:01
    Actually, so we have two guys here committed to wearing shorts every single day, and they give me crap when I wear pants. So I am not the worst, it turns out.
    2:10
    Well, I do live in 5,000 feet above sea level, and we have guys here that wear shorts every day of the year, and it's 18 inches of snow on the ground and below freezing. I don't get it, but hey, that's just me, I guess.
    2:24
    I do it. I do it. I'm only outside for maybe 10 seconds. See, and that I get. I'm out in the freezing. I'm fixing people's heaters. So I get warm enough to skip out and get in the cold again to go fix someone else's heater.
    2:38
    Yeah, and half the times I go to work in scrubs, so it doesn't matter. That's one step above pajamas is what I hear. I don't even think it's one step. I think it's equivalent. all right well i know that everyone listening doesn't want to talk here keith talk about his shorts so let's let's dive in really quick uh we hear that 1.0 finally released today are you excited to finally have that burden off your shoulder there keith it's releasing as we speak and yes yes i'm pretty excited uh it's been a long time i know the game's only been out for like seven months now come on now yeah yeah uh yeah this uh it was quite an undertaking it's there's a lot of code in there almost twice as much as iron maiden so it's uh yeah this the scope was that that we were able to barely squeeze it into in the uh a lot of time and uh i like how it came out no complaints has has anyone seriously complained about this game like seriously like it's oh yeah you're hearing like oh come on like I'm hearing it's the greatest thing that Stern's ever made, which is saying something compared to like Lord of the Rings and whatnot. You know what I'm saying?
    3:51
    I mean, Jurassic Park is definitely a shooter's game, and I knew that going into it. So I knew some people would like complain that the shots were too hard. And, you know, that's fine.
    4:02
    It's how I intended. And like I said, I really – it was a change of pace to me for Iron Maiden because I made the shots pretty easy on Iron Maiden, I think. so I wanted to do something a little different on this game and make it a little more of a shooter's game but at the same time still retain some easy shots so it is what it is now that's the question when you're actually developing a game I've always said this is the hardest thing to do is that you guys are always trying to thread the needle that you're trying to appeal to one the tournament guys you're also trying to appeal to casual guys you're trying to appeal to the home market You're also trying to appeal to the number one person on the IFPA, but you're also trying to appeal to the 850th thousandth person on the IPA. How do you actually approach that, and is it even possible to put all of that in one game? No, no. It's all about finding middle ground, and part of my design strategy for Jurassic was seeing the games around it, releasing before and after, and trying to differentiate between this game and the other games we're releasing in that time period. So I made the decision to make kind of a complex shooter's game.
    5:20
    It was tough knowing that, like even Gary complained about the map feature. Well, the map was players not going to get very far in a map. But it was like, well, you know, we got this cool bollyading T-Rex. You hit the truck, it spells T-Rex, he comes down and grabs the ball, and he was sold. So, yeah, it's a struggle finding a balance.
    5:47
    Well, and right now everyone's talking about the minigame you just came out with. Well, it's been released for about a month now, correct?
    5:55
    Yeah, hard to tell. I've been playing it for so long. So was the minigame always part of the actual pinball experience, or was it something that kind of came along later in the process? I had always planned to have it accessible through the menus as a little cheat because that's what we do in the office. We have a build that has – you basically go in there and you can start pretty much any mode you want.
    6:19
    And everyone was doing that. They were opening up, cheating into it, playing it. And so I kind of get my wheels going. And then when Dwight did his God mode with an adjustment, I said, this is great, but it kind of sucks that the average person on location can't access it. And so I talked to our system guy, Mark Guidarelli, and he's like, oh, yeah, no problem. I can just, you know, just like we do with the tournament selecting, you just hold a button, you can play a special game. I was like, great. And so then I set about to see how I can make it different from the actual Nublar Wizard mode. so being a video gamer I know these guys will take these old tired games and rejuvenate them by doing speedruns so I came up with the idea well let's just take this existing wizard mode we have and add a timer and make an easy path kind of set for you so if you really want to try to get a great time you're not spending all this time catching dinosaurs and saving people, you're just kind of making a beeline out of there and that's how it was born now i i played this uh two nights ago i went over to my buddy's house and we we did have a few questions so the truck it sets out a path for you which is basically uh on the east side of the island you're going all the way down okay do you have to follow that path or is it is that just a suggested route or does it even matter? Well, see now in 1.0, however you start Escape New Blar Challenge, whichever direction a truck's facing, that's your easy route. So if it's facing a right, you'll take the left side route. Facing left, you'll take the right side route. And it's a suggested route for speed runners. If you take that route, you're not going to get a very good score, but you're going to get a good time. So there's two different ways to play this game. If you're playing for score, you want to take the difficult route, and you're rescuing more people, you're capturing dinosaurs, which is even more points.
    8:26
    The rescue streak bonus applies, so the more people you rescue without losing anyone, the more points it's worth.
    8:33
    There's two different ways to play it. If you're getting your feet wet and you don't really care about time, certainly take the easy path, but you're going to reach a point where you're going to be escaping almost all the time. So you're going to start dabbling into the, uh, the more difficult path.
    8:48
    Can you basically just say, I don't want to rescue anybody. I'm out of here. I am out. I am gone because it seems like we had to rescue at least one person or two people before we actually could move on. Yeah. That dynamic had to stay, but, uh, pretty much every paddock has people to rescue. So, uh, you do, you get a big bonus if you hit every single paddock in the game. So the, the paddock, it said the, the map path that it sets out for you is basically simulating that you took that side up during regular gameplay. So if I get to Nublar legitimately, every paddock I visit then becomes the easy path when I get to Nublar.
    9:29
    So when you do the escape Nublar challenge, it's basically simulating a path that you took that you rescued a bunch of people, you captured these dinosaurs. So now that's the safe route out. you're retracing your steps. There are still a couple of stragglers laying around to be rescued, but you don't have to capture the dinosaurs because in theory they've already been captured.
    9:47
    So that's kind of your like, your bail on everyone else that's stranded in the park and get to the helipad.
    9:54
    Do you see you guys using this in tournament mode? Because I actually see this as being a very, a very broadcast friendly way of actually playing the games. because that's basically how Pool is. In Pool, they play nine ball because it's fast and it's easy television. I could see this being a very easy thing that they could either, you know, on Twitch or on ESPN Ocho or whatever.
    10:21
    No, no, I didn't. That wasn't part of my thinking. But part of my thinking was that whenever I'm playing with people, people generally don't like playing with me. If we're playing a multiplayer game, they'll run off and start playing something else while I'm taking my turn. so you know that's to me that represents a problem in pinball so this was kind of a partial solution i think is to make a uh basically a mini mode where i'm not going to take that long you know i'm pretty much down to around you know two and a half minutes to beat it so if if i'm going to play you know my buddies or whatever i know my turn will be over in two and a half minutes no matter of what so that they'll stay put and i'll hang around they'll interact so that's something i'm trying to bring hidden here well and the other thing too i noticed today i got an email because i'm an all access person and you guys are doing an actual competition with this mode within the all access all access program um are you seeing other people getting down to two and a half minutes or is that like kind of what we should be trying to aim for if we're trying to enter the competition? Well, I think to me, the two minutes is a magical mark. It's very difficult, but possible. So I think, you know, that's great. I know there's a handful of people in the world that can possibly do that. So I wouldn't like hold myself to this time per se. That's, you know, whatever time you get, the time you get, the important part is you escaped. So, uh, right now, like I played for time for so long that now I'm actually going through and playing it for points and trying to figure out where the bar is for maximum points. And right now I think it's about 2 billion.
    12:08
    Ooh, I think I had about 200,000. So, well, what I'll do is I'll start on his feed run. And if I mess up the first paddock, then I'll switch to the other path and try to for points. bold strategy cotton we'll see if it pays off right yeah but i'm looking forward to uh people podcasting their their speed runs and bragging rights and everything goes with it now you took this down to logan's arcade and loaded it up how did the community accept it what was their response i'm assuming a lot of people knew about it because you know because of the proximity to stern but what was your experience?
    12:48
    Oh it was very positive so you know a lot of the hardcore players was like yeah it's great I played for a while I won a free game and it was like I didn't want to play it again but I used my credit to play Nublar and you know try to get on that high scoreboard so it's doing what it was meant to do it was just kind of rejuvenating a game that you know you don't have time to play a half hour whatever you can play this you know three or four minute game and still get your name up there.
    13:17
    And one of the things I had Rick do was put during the Escaping the Roy challenge, just permanently show the scores that you're chasing, the top three scores. So partially that's bragging rights. So your initials will be up there for everyone to see every time they're in that mode. So I think that's important.
    13:36
    Well, and it's brilliant, like you said, because a lot of people, they look for a balance in their collection at home where they have the long players like Lord of the Rings, but they might have a short player like Brom Stoker's Dracula. And depending on their evening, they say, hey, I'm going to flip on Brom Stoker's because I got five minutes and it's going to kick my butt and then I'm going to move on with the rest of my night. Or, you know, I've got a couple hours, let's play some more of the ring. So that's an awesome idea. That way it's you get the best of both worlds in one machine. Yeah, yeah. And there's specific design decisions I made, such as you get three trucks. No, no more, no less. You're not getting any more trucks. and tilt ends game, which should discourage death savers. So it's going to be consistently that every time. It's never going to change. You're never going to have extra trucks, never going to have extra balls. Once you're in that mode, you're in that mode, you know your parameters, you know what you need to do.
    14:29
    So I was listening to TPN, or the pinball show, whatever it was, and Zach many had mentioned that he feels like this mode is cheating. What do you think of that? I want to know what your thoughts are because I have heard some people say this is kind of like cheating the machine by getting to the end mode and seeing the end mode without putting the work in for it. Well, it's not the end mode. That's the thing. Okay. That's what I thought. It seems like a misconception to me, but I just wanted you to clear that up. When Dinosaurs Rule the Earth is the actual wizard mode for beating the game.
    15:03
    Okay. This is more of a story-themed wizard mode because that's what I had to work with. So it got the most attention, whereas when Dinosaurs Ruled the Earth, hardly anyone's going to get there. So we didn't really want to spend that much resources on it. We decided to focus it all on Nublar and make it its own little minigame.
    15:25
    Just along with what you said, I think it's great because a lot of times I only have five to ten minutes. And so I come down on my go game as Iron Man because I know I only going to spend five to ten minutes on it And then I just go back up and do whatever I need to And so having a game that actually fills both of those niches I think is a brilliant move Yeah, thanks. Yeah, I mean I don't know why people think it's cheating. It's – okay.
    15:51
    I think it's because of the misconception there. I just – well, people need to understand. If this was a mode buried deep in a game where 1% of the pinball property is ever going to see it, I would have got no resources for it. It would have been – if you've gotten to Number of the Beasts on Iron Maiden, that was very simple, straightforward because I knew hardly anyone would get there. So it's just – it's resource allocation. How much do you want to spend on something nobody is going to see whereas put as much stuff up front that everyone can enjoy? So call it what you want, but I'm probably going to do this moving forward with all my games.
    16:29
    Well, I think that's one of the questions we had. Do you think this minigame is not only something – we'll probably see it on your games, but do you think it's something that will be adopted through all the other games as well? Because it's – like Scott said, it's kind of more friendly to time play. You know what I'm saying?
    16:44
    I'm not sure. I haven't really talked to any of the other guys, but I'm definitely – it's in the menu now. So if it's available, you can hold down the flipper buttons and access it. So I'm assuming the other guys are looking at it, but I haven't actually talked to them. So here's another question. With the minigames basically giving you a different way of playing a game, what are some of the older games that you could look at and say, huh, that would be a lot of fun if I had the time and the programming prowess. I would love to design a minigame for that game. I mean the first thing that comes to my mind would be Encore on ACDC because that is so hard to get to but once you get to it it's such a great wizard mode that would be my first choice that's a good one I haven't even scratched the surface on the wizard mode on ACDC so I'm just lucky if I get multiball yeah see that's my point exactly it's such a great mode but nobody sees it so that's why I'm trying something different I kind of did the same thing with Iron Maiden it's like you know here's this wizard mode but if you beat the entire game here there's something special reward for you kind of like the Valinor type do everything beat everything this is your reward but how many people have actually seen Valinor it's not enough to really spend a lot of time on it Yeah. I'm kind of skeptical about whether or not anybody but the top ten players have actually been to Valinor.
    18:19
    Well, anyone else has taken off the glass of their machine too. I have, and let me tell you, I was – I had a Lord – I used to operate a Lord of the Rings, and I had one at my house while I was shopping it. And it was right about midnight. I was like, I'll play a quick game of pinball before I go to bed. And I kid you not, it was almost 2 a.m. when I finally got to bed, but I got Valinor. so it was totally worth it see that's that's the exact story that eric manure had is he was at his brother's house and he played and it was like christmas eve and yeah it was the same thing it was about midnight and he started a game and about 2 a.m he started screaming and his brother came running out asking what was wrong yeah that's quite the game of endurance but uh i love it Great game.
    19:06
    Yes, yes. So I'm curious. I don't know if people out there in our audience know what goes on kind of at Stern, but you're kind of at the end of your game, your Jurassic Park game, and what does a daily schedule – what is it like for Keith going on from here on out? I know you can't tell us anything about your game that you're building now, but do you guys just sit around and play pinball and just kind of come up with ideas? I don't know what happens.
    19:38
    So Game 3 is designed. It's pretty much in the can, and I'm working on Game 4 at the CAD stages. So there's always something to do. Yeah, I just didn't know if it's like 2 o'clock I do yoga, and then 3 o'clock I – I don't know if it's scheduled out, if you guys have like a really relaxed schedule or what you do there. So the first year I worked here, yeah, I literally had nothing else to do because I hadn't had any games released. But, yeah, now that, you know, Iron Maiden, Jurassic Park are, you know, they're still doing runs of them. So I still have to go out on the line and spot check them now and then. So, no, I managed to stay busy.
    20:17
    Cool. What do you look for when you go to the line? So usually the, in final, they'll have questions. like today I was asked well how should the because we're they're uh Jurassic Park should back on the lines and sometimes we'll get new guys and we'll say well how is this um control room feed supposed to feed is it supposed to hit the top of the sling is it supposed to hit the flipper so you'll have to go out there and tell them exactly what it's supposed to do and then they'll make notes and make sure that's what it does so it's pretty simple Saturday's coming up everyone's talking about already. Pimberg is going to be opening up at noon Eastern Standard Time. So as the champ of Pimberg last year, do you have to set that line or do you actually get to jump the line as a returning champion to defend your title? Well, that would be nice, right? That should be a perk. But unfortunately, it is not. So, yeah, no, I'm just a peon when it comes to that. See, that seems crazy to me because even like American Ninja Warrior, they have two lines. They have the lines of people who routinely are basically the invite line, and then they have the, hey, whoever wants to try, you can wait in this line. It seems to me if you are the top 100 player or at least were in the top 100 last year, you should immediately get, I don't know, like priority seating or priority – Yeah, you should include a VIP pass for next year. I agree. So if Doug Polk was listening, make it so. Well, I understand they're trying to make it available to everybody, but I mean, come on. It would be absolutely ridiculous if they're like, well, we wanted to see Keith Elwin in the finals this year, but unfortunately he was 1,400th on the list.
    22:12
    He just didn't push F5 fast enough. Yeah. Nah, I don't know. I don't need special treatment. I've never had problems registering. So as long as you don't forget, you should be fine. At least hit the wait list. And it seems like they almost blow through the wait list every year. Yeah.
    22:32
    What is your favorite memory about Pembroke? Annie Pembroke? Yeah. And this last one. Well, Annie Pembroke, I think it's the first year they had the stage and all the streaming.
    22:46
    That was pretty fun, even though I got third that year. But I had a lot of fun because it was so different than anything done previously.
    22:55
    This year, man, this year was a blur this past year. I barely remember playing. Okay, well, I do have one question because I was watching the stream, and I saw you cradle up with a ball on the right flipper on Metallica, and then you live caught and flipped again with the right flipper and kept the ball cradled.
    23:18
    I've never seen that happen. all right i'll take your word for it okay well i'm like is that is that a routine move like my attitude is like i don't even see how that happened i don't know i must have been aiming for something i i don't remember i i probably forgot i even played metallica so well you did just release jurassic park so i assume you were bouncing back and forth between yeah that was that was really draining between i didn't really get a break because i had to go get feedback on Jurassic between rounds. So, yeah, pretty busy. So you're like, I got to win this Pinberg thing so I can get that out of the way so I can go get some feedback.
    23:58
    Yeah, yeah, my feet were killing me that weekend. Oh, I bet. So what makes a tournament game great? I don't know if there's any one thing because, you know, I used to think it was, you know, a variety of ways to attack it. But at the same time, there's games like Dracula, as you were saying. They were just like, hey, do the thing. I challenge you to do the thing. And if you do the thing, you're greatly rewarded, you know, stacking all three multiballs. So, you know, I'm not sure. I think part of it is not something that you're not doing the exact same thing over and over. Like, to me, scared stiff now that, you know, the tournament strategy is just get in a multiball cradle at the left and just keep shooting the left ramp over and over again. And to me, that doesn't make a good tournament game. It's very boring for the audience and the player.
    24:48
    It would seem to me that there would be some sort of exponential scoring component where you could even come back on ball three, even if you had two house balls on the first one, where it's not just continually chopping wood, where if you hit that shot five times, it's worth this much. But, hey, hit it 10 times, it's worth significantly more. And hit it 20, and you just completely blow the game. Yeah, I despise linear rule sets, so I will never do that.
    25:18
    As much as I love Tron, I don't think it's a fun tournament game because, yeah, if somebody has a 50 million ball one, I know it's like, I've got to settle down for 15 minutes, chop wood to catch them. So what's your favorite tournament format? I assume you've played in a couple tournaments, right?
    25:35
    I've read about them. Let me think. I think that would be Pinbird. Okay, the old style where you have the ticket or the current style?
    25:45
    The match play style. I like being told what to play, when to play it. I really like that as opposed to here's 12 games, pick five, just keep dumping money in, play it as many times as you want until you qualify. To me, that's boring. I like the challenge of not knowing what I'm going to play, who I'm going to play. I think that adds to the fun of it for me anyway. What else you got, Scott? I'll tell you guys a secret if you want. Yeah, sure. We won't tell anyone, I swear. No, no. We added a fourth skill shot to Jurassic Park after you get the double super skill shot. And this will unlock something that you may not notice right away, but you probably will eventually notice. And I'm going to leave it at that. Okay. Now everyone's going to rush out and start playing Jurassic Park as much as they can. what's that what's that one thing i got to figure out so i can post it on the internet first right everyone's gonna be the first we should have a contest see the first person to figure this out i saw your teaser picture that had the dna molecule so maybe it has something to do with that today no mr dna is back i was gonna put him on the milk carton but i didn't have time so i just threw him up as a temporary profile picture but he is back and he he's mad he's mad he was gone. So we actually revamped that a little bit. We have an instant info screen now that shows which ones you've collected, which ones you need, and how to get them. So it was actually kind of good that we left them out because that gave us an excuse to go back and give a little bit of an overhaul. A couple of the ones that I deemed too hard were made a bit easier. So people should be getting more DNA. You should see more Mr. DNA. Awesome. Now, were they hard for you or hard for mortals?
    27:31
    Both. So some of them were pretty ridiculous. I was like, nobody's ever going to get this. So some of them that were four shots, I made three. Some that were three, I made two.
    27:43
    And the good thing is that you can just – anytime you're in Instant Info, you can look up and say, hey, I need this one. Okay, it's left ramp, right helipad target. So it's no longer a mystery.
    27:55
    Does anybody get confused when you're – because you're fleeing, you're actually coming toward you. And so the truck has actually pointed the opposite direction of the way the map is showing. Does anybody get confused by that besides me?
    28:08
    Well, it depends if you're in main game or Nooblar. Yeah. Well, I guess in the escape Nooblar, I kept saying it took me a second to figure out, oh, no, it's mirrored. So it's exactly the way it's supposed to be.
    28:22
    Yeah, the idea all along was that you're going to navigate to the visitor center, then the wizard mode would be getting out of there. So I had to pick a direction. So that's how it works.
    28:34
    Can you give us some of your design philosophy? Because I know that we talked about Iron Maiden the first go around. You said you kind of – wasn't it like Judge Dredd is what you were kind of looking for with something more flowy, with something you love shooting or –
    28:51
    I compared it to Judge Dredd. Yeah, I don't really like Judge Dredd, but it was a unique attempt at kind of a similar layout.
    29:02
    My design philosophy is this. You should get mad at yourself for missing an easy shot, but you should also get excited if you make a hard shot.
    29:14
    That will always be my design philosophy. So, for example, Jurassic Park, I shoot the left or I miss the left ramp. I am now mad at myself. But then I hit the O and I'm excited. So to me, if a game has all easy shots, then you're just – to me it just becomes like you expect to make the shots. And if you don't, then you get mad at yourself. So I wanted to reward the player. And I made it the same way with the revive spinner on the left side. It's a tough shot and it's great if you make it. Plus, it gives you the outlying ball saves.
    29:51
    I also want every shot to do something. That was a big thing with Jurassic. It has so many count-ups. We call them bear kicks because I think that was one of the first games to actually start counting shots. It's like, what do we do? I can't think of anything, so we'll have it count up and give specific rewards. Then usually later in the design process, we'll think of that reward. So to me it's important not to have empty shots.
    30:18
    What's the hardest shot on Jurassic Park? Oh, I know. It's the O shot. That's by design. What are you talking about? I think it's the smart missile when the truck's in the way.
    30:33
    I have an easier time with that than I do hitting the O shot. Yeah. The O-Shot's annoying, but it's so great when you hit it. Maybe it's just me. I choke up. I always get Chaos Lit, and then I always fail to start it by hitting it up between those pop bumpers. Yeah. It's definitely a hard shot too, but that's why there are such great rewards on it. The Smart Missile Awards would be extremely game unbalancing if that was an easy shot. Totally agree. Yeah the one that I have the hardest with is the one that you hit with the upper flipper that goes up to the I don know Which shot is that It shoots across and then goes up to the wire ramp The Raptor Tower shot Yeah, yeah, yeah. The Raptor Tower shot, every time I – it just is going so fast, I break it every single time. If I get it, I'm like, woo, yeah.
    31:32
    Yeah, any shot deemed to be difficult should give you – so the Raptor Tower shot advances. some awards, including awarding fossils in your super tranks. So as I said, if I make a hard shot, I try to make it rewarding at the same time. Now, the one challenge I had on the escape mode is you can move around the shots. And so one, how do you do that? And two, that was the easier way for me to shoot around that shot as opposed to just bricking that shot all the time. Yeah, so that was a dynamic I built in to make you think twice as a speedrunner. So if you hit the truck, it's going to shift the rescue rotations. And if you hit it again, it'll shift it back to where it originally was. So if your last shot is on the O shot, you're in a speedrun. So now you have to think to yourself, well, I mean, I could take three shots at this O shot. At the time, it's going to take me to hit the truck, get the ball back under control, and shoot whatever. I think it's the helipad.
    32:37
    So that's just a little risk-reward action I threw in there. It's like, okay, if you want to make the easier shots, you're going to have to waste time doing it. So that was the whole incentive behind hitting the truck to rotate your shots.
    32:49
    So what you're saying is you can – it sounds like if you turn the truck, you have an option of shifting them one direction, but if you hit it again, it goes back to the original. Is that correct? Yes. Yes, there's only two different spots from where each rescue spawns. So, yeah, if I hit the truck, it's going to move to the easier shot.
    33:10
    And if I hit it again, it's going to move back. So if you're in a speed run, you want to keep your truck facing the same direction. So if you turn it to collect the easier shot, well, now you've got to turn it back before you leave the paddock in order to stay in that easy path.
    33:25
    I'm not going to be offended if you can't answer this question, and you can just tell me, Josh, no. So – but do you get to pick your themes? Is there – can you kind of tell us the process of picking themes? Oh, no. Okay. Don't worry.
    33:40
    I'm the little man on the totem pole, so hopefully someday I'll get to pick my themes. Okay. I didn't know if it was like you get to sit at the table and they give you a list of themes and you say, okay, I'll take that or if it's – Yeah, I mean we'll have meetings. What do you guys think is cool and what do you guys think is not cool? But as far as saying I want to do this theme, I have not experienced that, no. So I was kind of sneaky. I knew that we were going to record with you, and I was listening to this Flippin' podcast last week, and Tommy said that your games are so good that he's a fan for life. And essentially if a Keith Elwin game comes out, he's just going to buy it. And the only thing that would prevent him from buying one of your games is a terrible, terrible theme. It had to be absolutely just the worst theme. So I went to Facebook and I asked everyone, what's the worst theme you could think up? And I want to pitch some of these to you, Keith, and see – because I want you to pick one of these, and then we'll throw it to our audience to see if they would or wouldn't buy the game even though you were designing it. Yeah, let's go. Matt Shablone, he submitted U.S. Supreme Court pinball. uh can we do a c-span game yeah c-span yeah we'll do um the history of toast or laundry day some of these i'm gonna leave out because i feel like you'd actually make like i don't i don't feel like uh my little pony's too far out of the park well that's gary's favorite he's been dying to do that forever oh okay okay so keith you're a brony is that what it is my yeah for the bronies one of my favorite Bob's Burger episodes yep okay let's see we got pinball podcast request for the Twippy that's a good one thank you Ian for that one Franchi says everyone poops it's a children's book it is there's that theme let's see what else we got Jeff Patterson put the Aquabats I don't know if you've even heard of them I don't even know what that is See, I didn't know if you would or not because you are from San Diego and they're from San Diego. Anyhow. All right. Let's see.
    35:59
    Battlefield Earth, the old John Travolta movie. I don't know if you remember that one. Battlefield Earth, yes. Yes. That would be a great wizard mode. I'll say that.
    36:09
    Scott Larson did colonoscopy, a journey to your core. Does that come with assets? Yes. It does come with assets. Get my joke there? Okay. Yeah, assets. Yeah, got it. Sorry, this is family-friendly. Come on, guys. Yes. Oh, come on. I got this.
    36:26
    It's medical. Chris Chandler did Antique Roadshow. Oh, I actually like that show. I think that pretty much – there's some other ones on here, but I'm not going to touch them. Yeah, some of them were not family-friendly. Yes. Yeah, yeah. I can imagine. Oh, sorry. I'm going to go with Jeff Rivera's too. anything country music theme. And he means like the new pop country, not like Johnny Cash or anything like that. He's like Keith Urban, you know, that newer stuff. I think a Dolly Parton would sell, a new Dolly Parton. Vault the Dolly, I like it. Vault the Dolly. I really like that game, yeah.
    37:06
    Okay, so Keith, those are your options. Let's go back through them really quick. So Supreme Court Pinball or C-SPAN, The History of Toast, Laundry Day, Any country music theme, pinball podcaster, quest for the Twippy, everyone poops, battlefield earth, and colonoscopy a journey to your core. Oh, and antique roadshow. So if we're basing these themes off toys that integrate into the game, I would say Laundry Day.
    37:35
    Really? Yeah. Okay. Laundry Day sounds like an episode of SpongeBob. That's what it sounds like, just kinetic energy all over the place. Yeah, so I can picture a rotating device dryer with a magnet that grabs the ball, and you're drying your clothes. I can picture this. All righty, audience. Here it is. Keith has picked his theme. We're going to throw this to the face page. All we're going to ask is a simple yes or no. If Keith L1 came out with Laundry Day, the pinball machine, would you or wouldn't you buy it? Simple as that, right?
    38:12
    I can make a game out of that. it's something everybody can relate to. Like I said, there's a mechanical devices you can put on there. So there's a game there. And it would probably be absolutely epic and it'd probably be in the top 10, no matter what. That's the funny part to me. It's all about perspective. Yeah.
    38:33
    All right, Scott, you got any other questions really quick? Yeah. So I have a question. Is the, the beanie we sent you, is that keeping you toasty warm during the winter time?
    38:44
    Yes, yes. I keep it in my gym bag. I mean that thing covers my neck if I pull it all the way down. Oh, it's crazy big. I actually have the one with the stripes and the pom-pom on the top. Oh, yeah. And basically I could walk around the house with that alone and still be hot.
    39:03
    Oh, another month and we should see the sun again here in Chicago. Yeah, we won't see it here in Utah until May or June, somewhere around there. So something like that. Yeah, we get we get these weird winters out here. They toy with us. Oh, it's almost summer. And then we get like a blizzard comes through for some odd reasons.
    39:24
    Well, at least I live by the ski resort, so I can actually go skiing. So, yeah, ski Chicago, man. Come on. Yeah, exactly. Oh, like water ski Chicago, like Lake Michigan. Yeah. Yeah. it's different here. So Keith, what, what shows are you going to this year? You guys, you guys kind of take turns on going to different shows, right?
    39:48
    Oh, I'm not sure. Probably Expo. Cause it's in my backyard. Probably Pinberg. Cause it's awesome. Other than that, I have no plans. Okay. He doesn't want his groupies to know. It's probably true. Stalkers. Yes, it's true. I'll tell him I'm going to MGC. And then I don't show up. I'll never hear the end of it.
    40:12
    You have to wear your Clark Kent glasses. Yeah, yeah. Seriously, worst disguise ever, right? Oh, he's got glasses. I can't tell Superman.
    40:24
    Okay, so you've been at Stern for how long, about two years? I am nine days shy of three years. Wow. So what has been the best surprising thing about working at Stern?
    40:39
    It's so funny because you hear how everyone thinks things work here, and it's completely not true. This is a great place to work. It's really relaxed. It's fun.
    40:50
    All these rumors about Gary ripping stuff out of games is hilarious because everyone on the inside knows it's actually the opposite. He's sitting there jamming stuff in your game. So it's a great place to work. I have no complaints. well and i can't remember was on our show when you were on head to head but you were talking about you would pretty much all design jurassic park and then gary was like where's the mech where's the eating dinosaur or something like that and you're like that's that's a great example it's like all right here's a uh a t-rex that moves back and forth and gary's like no it's got to eat the ball it's like well it's gonna be expensive i don't care it's gotta eat the ball so it's like all right so i thought for sure the two bank was toast and uh so we went ahead and did all that with the T-Rex. Gary sees it. I love it. I love the two bank. We're keeping it. So it's a, it's not, this is the best job on the planet. No complaints. Awesome. Okay. By the way, I will say on the speed run on escape, I loved that the dinosaur is like a Labrador who's just looking at the dog, at the ball the whole time. It's like a dog. Can I play? Can I play? Well, he needs to stay out of the way. So yeah, That's all he can do.
    42:05
    Now, is 1.0, is that really a landmark for you, or is it you feel that, okay, everything I've envisioned in the game is basically there, and now it's fine-tuning from there? Yes. Or, okay. We're not adding any more features, which are obviously the time-consuming part of code development. We can always tweak, make obviously bug fixes, but it is feature complete now. He's not missing anything.
    42:34
    Now, you also, is it a struggle for you since you're doing, you seem to be doing more than the standard designer in that you're actually doing the rules simultaneously as you're doing the play field. Is that different than how other people approach it? It seems like in the past, people have done the play field and the coder envisions the rule set. but it seems like you are way more involved in that than I would previously think, I guess. It's true. My programmer, Rick Nagel, he's new to pinball. He knew nothing about pinball coming here, and he's just like, tell me what to do, man. I'll do it. I don't care. And so we work great together in that he'll come up with some ideas, but he pretty much just takes what I give him and says, yeah, I can do that. And if I if you can't do it, he'll say so. But for the most part, this this team works really well.
    43:34
    So that's another question. I know you kind of I don't know if you kind of answer it just there. But do you guys try to keep the teams together as much as possible? If something's not working, you kind of jazz it up or how does that work?
    43:47
    So, yeah, I mean, so the core team is considered the engineer, which is Harrison Drake, myself and the head programmer, which is Rick. So as far as I know, we're staying together. So we kind of know how each other work. You know, I'll screw something up really in one of my CAD files. Harrison will be quick to point it out and just fix it and then tease me about it. But it's good. We were a really good dynamic. And then do they just kind of insert the artists and everything as you go along?
    44:19
    Yeah. Yeah, the artist usually comes in halfway through the project, same with the sound guy. and it's usually like who's available and who wants to do it at that point well everyone wants to do a keith game right all aboard all aboard all righty well if that does it for questions i would like to move on to uh i sent this over to you too um i don't know if anyone else has noticed this past couple days but slap saved called it quits uh they have shut down their podcast for now uh we want to wish the best to jason and matt and chris that all did uh slap save at one time or another but we're going to do a segment still in their honor so this segment still is the flip bolt torch for those that don't know about this if you've never listened to a slap save slap save episode uh flip bolt torches you So we're going to pick a year, and we're going to pick a manufacturer. And we're going to go through the list of those machines in that criteria, and we're going to decide which one we'd flip, so that means we'd buy and then automatically turn around and sell it for the profit, which one we'd bolt to our floor, or which one we would throw in a bonfire to torch. So the year that we've picked is 1995, Bally Williams, and this was a great year. The list of these machines are Attack from Mars, Congo, Dirty Harry, Jackbot, Johnny Mnemonic, No Fear, Fear of Magic, and Whodunit. Eight titles in one year. That's insane.
    45:57
    But I'm going to ask you two, whoever wants to go first, Keith or Scott, which one of these would you flip and sell for the profit?
    46:07
    What kind of profit are we talking about? I already have my answer. That would be Theater of Magic. Okay. Why Theater of Magic?
    46:18
    Just because you can make a good profit off of it? I think, yeah. I mean, it's a gorgeous game. People go crazy for it. Personally, I think it's boring, but I could see why people are drawn to it. So that's not a game I'd really want in my house, but I know I can make a profit on it. So that's my answer. Okay. What about you, Scott? That's my answer too. So my buddy who has the Jurassic Park LE that I still waiting for him to sell to me but I don know if that going to happen The Theater of Magic he had it He had three J games He had Theater of Magic Circus Voltaire and Tales of the Arabian Nights And he was trying to shake up his collection. He said, which one would you sell? And everyone in our group said, you should sell Theater, because it doesn't provide the same fun, the other ones, but it still has a good value. So I don't miss it at all. I think I'm right there both with you I think I would sell Theater of Magic as tempting as whodunit is and the profit I'd make off of that I really do have to go with theater is there a profit on whodunit I don't know I met a man once that bought a whodunit because he thought he was going to make thousands of dollars off of it and then he bought it I can't remember how much he bought it for but he was trying to sell it for like five six grand and it just wasn't moving he's like I don't know what's wrong yeah he's delusional yeah yeah so all right so we've all agreed we're getting rid of theater or flipping it uh which one of these games are you bolting to your floor keith congo really yep not not attack or uh well that's pretty much i already had two attack from ours so yeah plus i can pretty much go to any location on the planet that has one So Congo is much harder to find out in the wild.
    48:13
    Yes, it is. And my same friend who actually – he powder-coated it. He made it beautiful. He got a different translate on it. And then he called me and said, hey, by the way, I sold Congo. And I'm like, what?
    48:27
    It's a fun game. I didn't get to the end of it. However, I do own an Attack from Mars, and it is one of my family's favorite. And so I would have to bolt Attack from Mars. And I have the LE, so it has the jumping alien on top, and it's really pretty. So I'll take that one. Okay. Yeah, it's definitely a tough call between us two, but like I said, I can play Attack from Mars anywhere, and I own two myself. So yeah, if we're looking at this list, that wouldn't be my first choice.
    48:57
    You just like the hippos comment on Congo. Hippos! That game is just a fun shooter, I think. Yeah, it really is.
    49:10
    I've actually owned both, Attack from Mars and Congo, and I'm going to say Attack from Mars because Congo left my collection. It's a great game. It really is. And just honestly, my nine-year-old son, he loves that game. He keeps asking me when we're going to get a Congo back. I have to break the news to him today. I don't know if we'll ever see a Congo again. I don't know if that was a good decision to get rid of that.
    49:28
    Yeah, I'm glad I picked up mine when I did back when they couldn't give them away. So no regrets. Oh, don't blame you there. All righty, guys. Which one of these games are you throwing in a big old fire and torching?
    49:43
    No Fear. Really? Really. Yeah. Okay. I like No Fear. It seems very fast, very circus-like. You know what? Jackpot does nothing for me. It really doesn't. The layout seems very boring, and so I would never own a jackpot.
    50:09
    So I don't hate – well, okay, yeah, I hate jackpot. That's it. Wow. A little angst there, huh, Scott? Yeah, a little bit, yeah.
    50:23
    I'd get rid of Whodunit. It's one of these games out of all these that I just – I've played and played and played, and I just can't get into.
    50:30
    Yeah. It is what it is. It feels like you should be more satisfied in playing Whodunit. You're right. But I'll still burn jackpot. It's fine. I remember when Whodunit first came out. We thought it was amazing. Oh, look. It's a story-based game. You're collecting weapons. You're collecting clues. And then, yeah, it just kind of went downhill from there. Yeah. Well, it feels like one of those choose-your-own-adventure books for a nine-year-old, right? Yeah. Or playing Clue. At the end, you're just like, okay, well, that was kind of boring. And I have two different strategies for no fear. No matter what you're doing, you're shooting the looping ramp, or you're just continually shooting the scoop and taking a kick out, kicking it back into the scoop until you get over the edge. Those are the two strategies.
    51:19
    So is this one of the reasons no fear is one of the reasons you don't like putting scoops on your game? uh no it's it's just uh if you're gonna have a scoop don't have it award something potentially great and don't have the kick out so you can just repeatedly shoot it over and over so uh there you go yeah yeah scoops it seems like it's i'm going really fast in a game and oh i'll just pause for five seconds while it does something and spits it back out yeah i'm not a big fan of scoops either they're okay on some games I guess Tron I think is fun but yeah if I can get away with enough posts and a target I'll do it so we'll hear you do a recap we're all going to flip theater of magic Keith is bolting Congo while Scott and I are bolting down attack from Mars and we're all oh I guess we're not all going to but Keith was going to torch no fear Scott is doing jackpot for some odd weird reason It's just not fun. Sorry.
    52:26
    I'm seeing a resurgent right now with Jackbot. I don't know if it's because Jack Danger is playing it a lot or whatnot, but it's a fun game. I think it's a fun game. Okay, so I flip it then.
    52:38
    See, to me – okay, I will say this about Jackbot. I own one. I don't think it's the greatest game ever. But I think it's pretty brilliant how they did the multiball in so many stages. It's so hard to get through. it's like when you get to the supervisor. So that's, to me, that's the saving grace of jackpot. If it weren't for that, yeah, I'd find it pretty boring too.
    53:02
    I think the play field should look prettier. It's an ugly play field, I'm sorry. That giant visor with the lights, it just, there's nothing really to look at.
    53:14
    Yeah, yeah, it's not much of a looker. But, you know, as a tournament game, I enjoy it. When I had one, I have one in my collection. I actually don't know where it is right now. It's storage, I think. But, yeah, when it's set up in my collection, I don't really play it. But it was a big hit where I had a pinball party at my house, and I put two-inch flippers on it. A little side tournament, and people were going nuts about it. So if you're bored of your jackpot, do that. It'll reinvigorate it.
    53:43
    Nice. It's always those little tweaks that make a game so much better, isn't it? Well, with the center post, yeah, because you add a lot of center post strategy. Oh, yeah, it's true. It's amazing how much a center post will change your entire strategy on any game. I think that pretty much does it for us. I can't think of anything else that we had on our list. You've been such a gracious guest. We really appreciate you always coming on, Keith, and we appreciate you making us somewhat semi-famous because you're wearing our hat to the tournament. It's a good hat. so well we'll uh we're we're making that uh that limited edition shirt so we'll uh we'll be getting you that too so well you know i used to wear that head-to-head shirt and look what happened with them so and just warning you guys we haven't reached 100 episodes that's usually when people drop off so and everybody who's listening i'm on the lookout for jurassic park le so if you want to sell one hit me up why would you why would you sell one at 1.0 that's the worst time no no i want to buy one at 1.0 i don't want to sell it you're asking people to sell it it's like they at least got to play 1.0 then sell it you know what you know what people there's like other games coming out so you want to sell it so you can free up that space oh i get it i absolutely get it i yeah problem is i'm not very bad at selling games i'll just put them in storage so now it reaches the point where I have 50 games in storage and I was like I don't remember what I have no I I'm the worst I actually I I hate negotiating to buy and sell things and so I end up just buying them I actually uh I I'm not kidding today I looked up and I found a uh Jurassic Park LE and I told my friend who's really good at flipping games I'm like hey go and see what you can get it for because I want this game so it's uh he's my uh he likes doing that stuff I hate it I hate it it's part the disease, man. He's just like, oh, I love this game. I love this game. Ooh, the new shiny game. This game's going to storage, or I'm selling it. That's part of the beauty of this hobby. Well, legitimately, I have Shrek, which is fun enough, but I look at that and I think, what else could I have in this spot? I could think of a million games.
    55:53
    I would take Jurassic Park, I'd take Iron Maiden, I'd take Black Knight, I'd take any of those. So, yeah, I, I'm trying to buy a Jurassic Park, but they won't sell me one and I do not own an Iron Maiden. So, uh, yeah. Yeah. Well, I thought, well, didn't, didn't you give away your Iron Maiden for a prize? I did. Uh, it was a pro. Uh, I was like, if I ever went on Iron Maiden, it's going to be a premium. Cause I liked the looks of that. The whole reason I had a Jeremy do the Egypt package, cause I'm a big Egyptologist. So it was like, hey, we're going to quote-unquote theme this power slave. I just wanted all the Egypt stuff in there I could get. So that's the one I want.
    56:38
    Jurassic, I definitely want a premium as well. But unfortunately, they're all backordered, and I can't get one.
    56:47
    So if anyone out there has a premium, help Keith out because he has a rough time getting a hold of these machines. Actually, there is a premium Iron Maiden here that has been on sale, and I would love to take it home. But my 9-year-old, 6-year-old, and 5-year-old may get nightmares from it.
    57:08
    Does it also play into your decision, too? It's like, I don't really need to buy this game because I can just go to work and hit Stern Alley and just play it for however long and be good to go.
    57:17
    Yeah. I have one pinball machine set up in my condo right now. It's Harbor Lights by Gottlieb. So, yeah, when I moved to Chicago, I left all my games in California. And, yeah, I miss them. I miss being able to play them. But at the same time, it's also nice having space. Since I have three games shoehorned in my office, I have a Beat the Clock, I have a Jurassic and an Iron Maiden test games. So I get enough playing here that when I get home, I'm good. I'm good with my wood rail.
    57:52
    Nice. Do you have a game, a Grail game out there right now that you're saying, I want that? It would be something older for sure, you know, from when I grew up. I've always wanted a Cheetah, Stargazers on that list.
    58:07
    Pretty much, you know, the obscure 80s Stern Electronics games. Those are the games I grew up playing and love.
    58:16
    I have a hard time letting go in any of my Stern games. I got rid of a Galaxy a while ago, and I regret it. But definitely Cheetah and Stargazer at the top of those lists.
    58:28
    All right. So anybody listening who has a lead on a Cheetah or a Stargazer, message me. No, no. I'm not buying any more games. Stop.
    58:37
    Wait until I move back to California. Which is never because you're building the next 10 certain games. Yeah, probably never. But a guy can dream.
    58:47
    You can vacation. That's true. I can go visit them anytime. When you hit up Gary, whatever they're paying you, they need to pay you more. Because, man, seriously, these games are amazing. They're redefining modern pinball, in my opinion. They're fantastic.
    59:03
    Thanks. Yeah, my next game will be completely different from the other two games. So, yeah, I hope everyone likes it. Yeah. The problem is it's going to be displacing all my old bolt-down games because I'm going to have a Keith wall. Well, and even – I don't know if you listened. We had Josh Sharp on here a little while back, and he says it's rough now because it's like seriously. It's like, well, Keith, next game is coming out soon. What do I have to get rid of to put this into my collection? I've been to Josh's house. That's an easy answer.
    59:34
    Oh. Gottlieb Orbit has got to go, my friend. That is the worst game ever. Nice. Does he have an orbiter one? Because I hope he does with the warp play field. No, no. He's got a Gottlieb orbit, which we were using in some tournament there, and it was constantly slam-tilted in itself. And we were just like, why do you even have this game?
    60:02
    Oh, my goodness. Well, thank you, Keith. We appreciate you coming on. We appreciate you shooting the breeze with us and taking time out of your busy schedule and coming to say hi to all these little peeps. Not a problem. Thanks for having me. Yeah, thanks a lot. We'll see you. Oh, wait. Hold on. What? Hold on. If you want someone to get a hold of you, we got to do the whole spiel. I forget. Okay. All right. Okay. Go ahead. Yeah. If you want someone to get a hold of you at all, how do you want them to contact you?
    60:31
    Me? Yeah, you. I don't. Okay. That works. I'm not reckless, man. I live in a cave. No, Facebook's fine. Okay. You never know. There's people out there. Like I said, you've got your groupies. You are the Guns N' Roses of our time, right?
    60:51
    Yes, I have groupies. They're all guys, but I have groupies. You and Rush, right? Yeah, exactly. They're all guys.
    61:00
    If you want to get a hold of us, we are Loser Kid Pinball Podcast at gmail.com. Get a hold of us on Facebook at Loser Kid Pinball Podcast. If you want to get one of those sweet beanies like Keith was talking about that can go all the way down to your neckline, I just got a fresh batch in hit us up if you'd like that at gmail or facebook or you can even contact Josh you can contact Scott or me we'll get it done we really appreciate you coming on thank you so much for taking out your time no problem enjoy thanks alright thanks
    61:43
    Shut up and sit down. Bye.