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Ep 14: MASKED

Final Round Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 54m·analyzed·Aug 14, 2020
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

COVID-19 impact on pinball venues, tournaments, and community adaptation through rentals and digital engagement.

Summary

Final Round Pinball Podcast Episode 14 features hosts Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins discussing COVID-19's impact on the pinball industry, including venue closures (Silver Ball Saloon, Flat Top Johnny's) and tournament postponements (IFPA 17 Worlds, Brisbane Masters). Guest Ryan C joins to discuss pandemic restrictions in Australia (Melbourne lockdown), his new pinball rental business model, and community engagement through digital streaming and online trivia events.

Key Claims

  • Silver Ball Saloon in East Rochester, NY closed permanently due to COVID-19 pandemic after three years of operation

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins discussing venue closures; they mention Bruce Nightingale and his wife Kathy made the difficult decision to close

  • IFPA 17 World Championships originally scheduled for May 2020 in Florida was postponed to November 2020, then postponed again to 2021, with Germany hosting in 2022

    high confidence · Martin Robbins stating tournament postponement timeline

  • Brisbane Masters 10-day pinball festival was cancelled/postponed and was expected to be a breakout year for international participation

    high confidence · Martin Robbins discussing Australian tournament cancellation

  • Melbourne, Victoria is under stage 4 lockdown with 8pm curfew, 5km movement restriction, and one person per household allowed to leave daily

    high confidence · Martin Robbins and Ryan C describing Melbourne lockdown conditions

  • New pinball machines from Stern or Jersey Jack cost approximately $40,000 AUD in Australia

    medium confidence · Ryan C reporting what a machine renter told him about costs

  • Raymond Davison (top-ranked player) performed exceptionally well streaming Stranger Things pinball

    high confidence · Jeff Teolis and Martin Robbins discussing streaming performance; Marty spoke with Ray Day directly about the gameplay

  • Congo defeated Demolition Man 52-48 (72-66 votes) in the 'Crap Movie Great Game Battle No. 2' poll

    high confidence · Martin Robbins announcing final poll results for game battle competition

  • Ryan C has started a pinball machine rental service to operators/collectors as alternative revenue during venue closures

    high confidence · Ryan C detailing rental business model and its advantages over traditional location-based revenue

Notable Quotes

  • “A lot of people have been affected, and let's say you've got machines on location or you're running a tournament. Well, you can take those machines off site and come back in six months, 12 months' time. The problem with running a business like a bar or a pub is that you've got fixed costs that you need to cover every day, every week, every month.”

    Martin Robbins @ early segment on venue closures — Explains why pinball bars cannot survive pandemic disruption like operators can; highlights economic vulnerability of brick-and-mortar venues

  • “I honestly think it is, so far in the future, that moment. That moment where it's normalised. And I'm predicting it's going to be 12 months. 12 months until it's back to the capacity of what it could have been.”

    Martin Robbins @ tournament recovery discussion — Prediction on competitive pinball recovery timeline; sets expectation for industry normalization

  • “if I didn't do it, then I'd have my machines sitting at an empty pub with an unknown open date. It's guaranteed money, too, where you kind of roll the dice at an arcade”

    Ryan C @ rental business discussion — Articulates the business logic of rental model vs. traditional location-based revenue during lockdown

  • “I don't need that many pinball machines. And now you can build that red room of pain that you always wanted...I can just have a couple of machines and my other machines can be out...I don't need to have that many machines myself unless I want to run, I don't know, the pinball profile world tour at my house.”

    Ryan C @ collection philosophy discussion — Reflects on rental business reducing collecting impulse and improving personal inventory management

  • “me and Marty cannot leave, cannot go more than five kilometres from our house. Really? That's part of it? Yeah, can't go more than five kilometres from our house. Can't leave the house after 8pm at all, the curfew.”

    Ryan C @ Melbourne lockdown description — Documents severity of Australian stage 4 restrictions and their impact on community activities

  • “There's a bunch of competition guys that have been on like a monthly basis of just getting in new machines. So I get to see them even just for 10 or 20 minutes at a time.”

Entities

Jeff TeolispersonMartin RobbinspersonRyan CpersonBruce NightingalepersonRaymond DavisonpersonStacey BorgpersonJesse JaypersonOz Ericperson

Signals

  • ?

    venue_signal: Silver Ball Saloon (East Rochester, NY) and Flat Top Johnny's (Boston) confirmed closed permanently due to COVID-19 pandemic; represents loss of established pinball bars with strong community presence

    high · Jeff Teolis: 'our good friend Bruce Nightingale and his wife Kathy have made the difficult decision to have to close that wonderful establishment in its third year...it's COVID-19, it's the pandemic'

  • ?

    event_signal: IFPA 17 World Championships and Brisbane Masters both postponed; major competitive calendar disrupted; timeline extended to 2021-2022

    high · Martin Robbins: 'The IFPA 17 World Championships were supposed to happen in May in Florida...postponed to November...has since now been postponed until next year...Germany was going to be hosting in May or June of 2021. That's now being pushed to 2022'

  • ?

    operational_signal: Pinball bars face unsustainable fixed costs (lease, power, labor) during lockdowns with zero or minimal revenue; operators cannot pause business like those with machines on location

    high · Martin Robbins: 'you've got fixed costs that you need to cover every day, every week, every month. And if you can't sell product to cover your costs, there comes a point in time where you think we're now losing too much money'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball rental service emerging as pandemic-driven alternative revenue model; operators renting machines to collectors/players monthly instead of location-based splits; Ryan C reports strong uptake and guaranteed revenue versus volatile location earnings

    high · Ryan C: 'I've had my machines out on location...you've got to do a split with the location...I kind of tried to pick his brain...he said, Ryan, if I was to buy five new pinball machines from Stern or JTP, they would cost me...let's say $40,000. And I'm not ready to make that commitment...I can say, well, this is not for me'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.343

0:00
The Pinball Network is online. Launching final round pinball podcast. It's player versus player and player versus machine. Welcome to the final round.
0:39
Hello again. My name is Jeff Teolis. My name is Martin Robbins. Welcome, everybody, to the final round of Timbo Podcast. Episode 14. We come on every two weeks. If you were to listen every day for two weeks, we'd have a different show for you. That's the only 14 references. Yeah, it's two times seven. So that's what I've got.
1:03
So I guess for next episode, you can listen to it for three full work weeks. Take the weekends off. We've got a show. There's not a lot of material right now to work with with COVID-19. You say that, Jeff Teolis. However, I'm just going to, behind the scenes, lift the curtain, guys. we thought when we started this podcast it was going to go for 30 minutes to 45 minutes each episode. And it's probably not going to be that case. There's lots to talk about. Well, we've got a special guest coming on a little bit and he likes to talk a bit. I've got a lot of experience with that. We will get to our special guest, Ryan C, very, very soon because it's always fun to have him on. He was on our first ever show and have you ever thought of how many shows you've done with him? Look, I think you had said that. I can't remember exactly how many shows we did. Close to 100. Plus the two of you have appeared on other shows as well, too. So I have to tell you, I'm all on the news about coronavirus. I'm up on it every single day. I'm worried about you guys in Australia there. Tell me what's going on. Yeah, it is crazy times here. We are in lockdown, effectively stage four. People are talking about what stage five means. But, you know, we're under a curfew. We cannot leave the house at 8 o'clock. Only one person is allowed to leave the house per day. We're not allowed to shop together.
2:30

Ryan C @ rental business benefits — Shows how rental model creates incidental social connection during isolation

  • “I've had my machines out on location, yeah, you've got to do a split. You've got to do a split with the location. And sometimes you have good months. Sometimes you have bad months. Sometimes people spear beer on your pinball machine and don't look after it.”

    Ryan C @ location vs rental revenue comparison — Details operational frustrations with traditional location-based pinball business model

  • “I miss the community, I miss the people, I miss tournaments but the part I miss about tournaments is just hanging out with everyone and having a laugh and having some fun.”

    Ryan C @ community impact discussion — Illustrates what competitive pinball community loses beyond gameplay—social connectivity and belonging

    • Final Round Pinball Podcast
    organization
    Pinball Networkorganization
    IFPAorganization
    Silver Ball Saloonvenue
    Flat Top Johnny'svenue
    Brisbane Mastersevent
    IFPA 17 World Championshipsevent
    Head to Head Pinballorganization
    Stranger Things pinballgame
    Congogame
    Demolition Mangame
    Shadowgame
    Jungle Princessgame
    Melbourne, Victorialocation
    Sterncompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
  • ?

    community_signal: Community adapting to isolation through online alternatives: head-to-head digital vs real machine streams, online pinball trivia events, streaming platforms (OBS/XSplit with Visual Pinball); maintaining connection during venue closures

    high · Martin Robbins: 'I did get to do my first head-to-head stream, real machine versus digital machine, being Jungle Princess...I had my laptop running visual pinball...I was using...OBS, one of the software programs'; Ryan C: 'we have pinball trivia that we've been doing, just some online pinball trivia which is quite fun'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Hosts experiencing significant COVID-related anxiety and mental health stress; Jeff describes April-May as mentally difficult; community missing in-person tournaments primarily for social connection rather than competition

    high · Jeff: 'This coronavirus thing has mentally stressed me out beyond belief...April and May was not good for me, mentally'; Ryan C: 'I miss the community, I miss the people, I miss tournaments but the part I miss about tournaments is just hanging out with everyone and having a laugh'

  • ?

    content_signal: Final Round Pinball expanding format to include non-pinball content (masks segment); hosts acknowledge growing to longer, more varied episodes; audience participation experiments (battle polls with community voting/commenting)

    medium · Jeff: 'we thought when we started this podcast it was going to go for 30 minutes to 45 minutes each episode. And it's probably not going to be that case. There's lots to talk about'; hosts running 'Crap Movie Great Game Battle' polls with community input

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Ryan C has new podcast co-host Jesse Jay (on Pinball Network), departing from Head to Head Pinball with Martin Robbins; relationship described humorously as amicable breakup; maintains connection to both podcast communities

    high · Jeff: 'Ryan actually has a new podcast. It's actually on the Pinball Network. I know. It's with Jesse Jay. He moved on. He's got somebody new'; Ryan: 'yeah, me and Marty saw each other for a while...The breakup was amicable'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Pandemic forcing re-evaluation of collecting behaviors; Ryan C reports rental model has relieved psychological pressure to accumulate machines; recognizing oversaturation of personal collection; shift toward intentional, smaller curated collections

    medium · Ryan C: 'it's kind of refreshing to walk down there and not see an absolute packed basement because I don't need that many pinball machines...I can just have a couple of machines and my other machines can be out...I don't need to have that many machines myself'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Martin Robbins predicting 12-month recovery timeline for competitive pinball normalization (6 months for vaccine availability + 6 months residual until normalcy); high uncertainty about tournament capacity and participation levels post-pandemic

    medium · Martin Robbins: 'I'm predicting it's going to be 12 months...There's still no signs of a vaccine...I reckon there's another six months of residual until everyone feels that they're back to normality'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Establishing best practices for streaming head-to-head competition between real and digital pinball; Martin Robbins found digital platform limitations in precision (only ones and zeros) vs real machine subtlety; real machine player (Stacey Borg) had accuracy advantage despite digital player higher scores

    high · Martin Robbins: 'it was much easier for me to score higher, but it was much easier for Stacey, he had the real machine, to do some of the objectives...on a digital platform, you have nearly limited the angles that you have because it is ones and zeros, it's digital. So the subtleties of a real pinball machine meant that he had greater accuracy'

    • It's crazy times. So those are the safety measures, but what are businesses doing? Is the government looking after the businesses? Are people still allowed to work? Yes, but fewer people are allowed to work than before. So, for example, and don't directly quote me on this, But I think like the construction industry, you were allowed to have 50% of your workforce working. They've now reduced that to 30%. That's the kind of thing that they've done with those. They've also completely shut down a lot of businesses. So even call centers, things like that, they're shutting them down. You've got to work from home if you can. So it's pretty strict. This phase is a six-week window, correct? That's correct. Yeah, got another four more weeks of it. And then we'll see if it gets better or worse. Are the numbers going down? I know it's a two-week incubation period, but have you seen any positive results? No, nothing to say that it's coming down. What it's really saying is that we've got high numbers, they're consistently the same numbers, so at least they're not getting worse, I think. And remember, it's not just Australia, it's only the state that I'm in, Victoria. We have had a massive outbreak, and the rest of the country's fine. Well, they've got signs that it could get worse But believe it or not, I think Victoria Which is where Melbourne is located, that's the state of Victoria We've become the poster child of Phase 2 Meaning, don't do what Victoria is doing, it could happen to you You talk about things being difficult there And the numbers have gone up It's all in perspective too, depending on where you live We're seeing some bad numbers, obviously, in North America larger cities are certainly finding difficulties. And I asked you about the economy and employment because you and I are both right now, we're wearing our silver ball saloon shirts and hearts are broken, obviously, in East Rochester, New York and around the pinball community as our good friend Bruce Nightingale and his wife Kathy have made the difficult decision to have to close that wonderful establishment in its third year. And it wasn't from anything they did, I'll tell you that. it's COVID-19, it's the pandemic, and it's unfortunate. I know they're probably making the correct decision, albeit difficult, but it's still sad to see that wonderful place go. Yeah, agreed. And that's what we've got to remember. A lot of people have been affected, and let's say you've got machines on location or you're running a tournament. Well, you can take those machines off site and come back in six months, 12 months' time. The problem with running a business like a bar or a pub is that you've got fixed costs that you need to cover every day, every week, every month. And if you can't sell product to cover your costs, there comes a point in time where you think we're now losing too much money. Cut it. And that's what they've had to do. and it's, yeah, again, I mean, we, because we've been following Bruce Nightingale from before when it was a clinch in his eye he was going to open up a bar and then it was, you know, Silverwall Saloon and then we've heard over time how, well, he actually quit his job and then it became a full-time job for him. He's grown the business and they finally got the business in the black and then this happens. So, oh, I just, I feel for these guys because they put everything into it and it was doing so well. Stern Army location, poker venue for a little poker club there in East Rochester, trivia nights, good music, lots of corporate parties there. I've had events there as well, and I think a place like that, Flat Top Johnny's in Boston, had to do it, and there are others, and I'm not excluding anybody, it's just as they come to mind. I certainly will bring them up and sincerely regret that this had to happen, but it's understandable with the pandemic. I think there was nothing they could do. And you talked about the costs and things. Well, yeah, you can lower your expenses by not ordering a bunch of, I don't know, food and alcohol and all that other stuff. But you still get hard costs like the lease, the power and this and that. I mean, those are things that when nothing's coming in, it makes it really difficult. Yeah, correct. So, again, our hearts go out to all these people that are having to shut these things down. We know it's not what you ever dreamed. And it's crazy on prisoners of time. And so that's where we're at, unfortunately. Another aspect of competitive pinball, the IFPA 17 World Championships were supposed to happen in May in Florida. Top 64 players in the world were invited to it. Were you invited? Oh, sorry. I thought you were like me. It doesn't matter. That was postponed to November. That has since now been postponed until next year, which means Germany was going to be hosting in May or June of 2021. That's now being pushed to 2022. Everything's kind of moving forward. And it's just like Carl kind of hinting that, yeah, good chance Indus is going to happen. When he mentioned that last week on Final Round, I don't know what the kind of target date is in your mind, you know, for some of these events, but it's what we have to do right now. Well, the Brisbane Masters, you know, the 10-day festival of pinball was meant to be happening right now. And that's like the event in Australia. And as you know, like last year, we had some people coming over from the States. this year a lot more people from America were coming over. So this is going to be, I felt, like the breakout year for the Brisbane Masters to become a truly international tournament. And it's not happening. So, yeah, it's crazy times. I certainly hope that these events, these venues, can continue to happen in 2021 or whenever we get back to this. It will happen. It's just, boy, we've got to ride this storm out, unfortunately. We're seeing even more streamers, by the way. I noticed that on TPN with their top ten videos of the week. Ray Day, Raymond Davidson, the number one player in the world, he was crushing Stranger Things. I have to admit, I was surprised. Were you surprised? I don't know anybody who crushes that. Well, if anyone's going to crush it, it's going to be one of the best players that we've ever had, don't you think? Well, that's what I said to him. We were chatting, and I said, you're not getting any rejects on the left ramp or the Demi Gorgon? And he's like, oh, yeah, you missed the Demi Gorgon, but it's a bash toy now. And, no, left ramp, it's butter and stuff. I'm thinking, well, not everyone's... Not everyone thinks that. That is.
    8:56
    But I guess, you know, any game certainly can be dialed in. Things can be fixed. There are the right pitches here and there. He's got a good one, I guess. Yeah, he does. But, yeah, good to see you, everyone. Please watch the replay of that if you can, just to see how you can actually get really deep into that game. Marty, you know I can't sleep unless I know what's going on in your world. What has happened to you?
    9:20
    Well, really, not that much. But I did get to do my first head-to-head stream, real machine versus digital machine, being Jungle Princess. So myself and Stacey Borg, Dr. Curly Tech, did a side-by-side. Really interesting to see the advantages and disadvantages of the two platforms. It was much easier for me to score higher, but it was much easier for Stacey, he had the real machine, to do some of the objectives like get the drop targets down or get it up into the top saucer Because on a digital platform, you have nearly limited the angles that you have because it is ones and zeros, it's digital. So the subtleties of a real pinball machine meant that he had greater accuracy.
    10:15
    He did beat me in the end. I think six challenges to five challenges. It came down to the very last one. I think he won five in a row when we stopped going for scores. But it's fun. So for those people that are at home thinking, well, I can't stream because I don't have a real machine, just get visual pinball or future pinball or any of those pinball software programs that you can run on a PC or Mac and you can stream. Digital pinball, it's fun. Were you playing on like an iPhone or an iPad? I was playing on my laptop. Oh, wow, okay. Yeah, I had my laptop running visual pinball and I had that imported into XSplit or OBS, one of the software programs that I was using. And yeah, side by side, we had a lot of fun. I was watching Melbourne Silver Bowl, your little network of streams, talking to Oz Eric the other day. He was playing Guardians, and I know he's got Simpsons Pinball Party, and I thought, well, I'm going to have to play him a little bit of maybe an ICR, one of those challenges in one of those games, because I have both of those, and keeping in mind what you said last week on episode 13 about, you know, maybe we have to figure out some sort of balancing, and fair enough, too. I'm all about that. I want it to be fun for both parties. so maybe you can help set the challenge knowing both our skill sets the way I play the way he plays. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I think I might have to play, Eric. I think you should. I think it's actually easier to set up these side-by-side streams than it used to be. There's so many people that have perfected the process on what you need to do to set it up. So it's much easier. So if people want to know, you can speak to us, finalroundpinball.gmail.com or probably go to Tilt Forums and there's a couple of threads on it there, which has got a lot of information. That's great. I did it with Chuck Webster. Yeah, you did. Before on his Wicked Pissa stream. Maybe I can do it on Melbourne Silverball. Oh, the time difference too. Oz Eric, I've laid down the gauntlet. All right, you've been challenged here. All right, let's do this. You've seen my streaming setup, which involves a stepladder and an iPad.
    12:16
    It's mint, but I think that'd be fun. Cool. Also, the other thing that happened, we were talking about it. It was on the cusp when we recorded the last episode, but we did get the final result of the crap movie great game Battle No. 2. It wasn't necessarily a huge surprise that Congo won, but... It was final. Yeah, it was only 52 to 48, so effectively 72 votes to 66.
    12:41
    Wasn't the big runaway that I thought it was going to be, so good on you, Demolition Man. But what it means is that Congo is now up against the winner of battle one, which was the shadow. What are we going to do? We're going to put it up to a poll and let people decide. Absolutely. So there's a lot of audience participation this week because we are going to be doing another battle later on in the show. But what we want to know, we want you to go to. We're not going to necessarily do a poll where people vote. I'm just going to put up an image of Congo and Shadow and I want people to comment on it why they think either one of these machines is the better game. And then we'll read them out. All right. Right now, you and I will give our arguments. Okay. You want to talk about a tie. That's a real difficult decision. If they were both... And this will be the tiebreaker for me. I think of things like, which would I rather play in a tournament? I would rather play Congo in a tournament. Yes, agreed. What would give me more satisfaction playing over a long period of time? Probably Shadow. Also agree. If they're both available and they're both the same price, which one do I buy?
    13:55
    I'm probably picking Shadow. And it's close. The only reason I take Kongo out is because of the lower playfield. I'm not a fan of things like that. And that's the one week part of the game. Yeah, but you're not down there for that long, so... So... And conversely, you've got an upper play field in Shadow, but it's kind of a neat one. Yeah, I don't know. I'm not going to tell you what I think until I see what people comment. And agree with... No, I just want to... Do you have an opinion? I like both of them equally. Equally. And I, right now, can't pick. So I want to see what people say so I can hear a comment and go, oh, yeah, well, I hadn't thought about that. and, you know, let people sort of give us their opinions and then I'll give you my decision next episode. Wait a second. You're asking our listeners to give us an opinion, but you yourself, I don't have an opinion. No, it's not that I don't have an opinion. I don't have either one over the other at the moment because I agree with what you say. I would much rather play Congo in a tournament because I think I can play it better and I think the shadow is too brutal. But also if I had the shadow at home, I think I would enjoy playing that rule set, but I love the variety of rules that Congo has. So there's just too many pros and cons. For me, there's not one over the other at this stage. One more time. You're saying if they're available right now, same price, and you have to pick one. You can't pick one. No, I can't pick one over the other. So I want our listeners to help me decide. What one should I pick? I'm just looking at our response to the week and wondering why it's not fence sitters. But anyway, we do have a different sponsor of the week. Let's get to it. Jeff, what do you know about masks? Decent Jim Carrey movie. They're good for Halloween, slasher films and robbing banks. Why, is there more? Well, according to the World Health Organization, masks should be used as part of a comprehensive strategy of measures to suppress transmission and save lives during COVID-19. But Marty, what about people who say it's their given right to not wear a mask? It's an infringement on their freedom. Or that masks are uncomfortable. To those people, their egos represent a cognitive bias that lack critical thinking. They have a systematic pattern of deviation from any rational judgment. Uh, would you say? They're morons. Think of the many benefits of wearing a mask. Well, I don't have to see someone's bad teeth, and I guess that would mean less smelling of farts and other body odors. But I don't know about masks. I've heard some flat earthers and party goers say they're not sure. Well, think about this. When you wear a mask, no one at work will smell alcohol on your breath. And here's another idea. What about trying a face shield? Aren't face shields for welders, surgeons, and porno cameramen? True, but they can also prevent droplets from entering your mouth. Masks? Face shields? I'm in, Marty. COVID-19 resolved. Not quite, but it's a start. Speaking of people who really need a mask, look who's back. It's a mini head-to-head pinball podcast reunion. He's been on the show before, in fact, our first ever episode of Final Round. He lingers. He's back again. Ryan Z. G'day, lads. And yes, Marty has been banging on me as a drum for a while. Yep. And I have. Banging on your skin. In one way, someone.
    17:18
    Now, hold on a second here. That's funny you should say that because I think you're lying. Because, Marty, I don't know if you know this, Ryan actually has a new podcast. It's actually on the Pinball Network. I know. It's with Jesse Jay. He moved on. He's got somebody new. Sure. Mm-hmm. Yeah, fine. And they met on a dating app. So had you been banging on the skins, maybe Head to Head wouldn't have been dissolved and you wouldn't have to resort to this sad version of a podcast, which, funny enough, turned out to be fantastic. But anyway. Mm-hmm. Ryan, is that the truth? Yeah, me and Marty saw each other for a while. You know, the breakup was amicable. We had some good sex. It was all right. We did. I've had better, obviously.
    18:03
    Catch everybody up. How's life been, Ryan? Since episode one of the Fun Around podcast? Yeah. Or since? Because things have changed. We are now all in lockdown. How's things been for you? Yeah. Yeah, it's quite a funny world we're living in at the moment. And if you sit there and you think about it too long, it can all be very overwhelming. or you can just kind of be in a constant state of denial, which I think sometimes can be a healthy approach. But, yeah, you've discussed it, Marty, where... Healthy, sorry, mentally, right? Not physically. Yes. Come on, dude. We just did a whole Spots of the Week on masks. Well, you know, it's healthy if you just ignore it. What the fuck? No, not ignore it. Just ignore the fact that, like, right now, me and Marty cannot leave, cannot go more than five kilometers from our house. Really? That's part of it? Yeah, can't go more than five kilometres from our house. Can't leave the house after 8pm at all, the curfew. Yeah, you can't go shopping with anyone you live with. You can't go to the shops together. I can't see my mum. My mum can't work because she works in a clothing store. She doesn't live with anyone, so she's sitting there at home doing nothing. So as I say, if you think about it and you break everything down, it's quite depressing, but it's, I guess, necessary at the moment. But what I wanted to bring it back to is that we actually eased restrictions for a while, and there was a point where I think you could have 20 people over your house. And I guess I took it for granted, and maybe it was the best anyway, because, you know, you don't want to be kind of, like, spreading infections. Not that anyone I know has had coronavirus, but I kind of wanted to throw a little kind of, like, get-together for the pinball community. But I'm like, well, I need 20 people. That means I have to, like, leave people out. Let's just wait until it bumps up again. and then all of a sudden it went down to nothing and I miss the community, I miss the people, I miss tournaments but the part I miss about tournaments is just hanging out with everyone and having a laugh and having some fun. But you've been doing something to get the pinball community together. What's that? Yeah, well, I think I've only done it three times but we have pinball trivia that we've been doing, just some online pinball trivia which is quite fun. So it's good to see people that way and yes, it's better than nothing but I don't know, there's nothing I like more than seeing someone in person, right? Whether or not you're giving them a hug or something, there's something about being in the same room as someone, right, that has that special feel. Yep, agreed. It is the thing I miss the most about competitions. It's the people. And we always like to have fun on this show. Marty knows me very, very well. So do you, Ryan. So this is kind of a, I guess I'll explain to everyone else who kind of knows me, but just as the voice behind the podcast. This coronavirus thing has mentally stressed me out beyond belief. Marty and Ryan, you know, but I'm sharing this with others. April and May was not good for me, mentally. I feel I'm fine now, but it is the anxiety of seeing people make bad decisions. We tongue-in-cheek joked about that wearing the mask thing. There's a real message there. I really want people to play it safe, wash your hands, social distance, do what you have to do, live your life, but let's get through this because it will just prolong everything and cause people to get sick and die. This is exactly right. Forget about the whole prolonging it and, you know, woe is us, we have to stay at home for another six weeks. We want people to live. I think it's actually the same here. We want people to live and not die. It's that simple. Yeah, and the other side of it is that And reducing actual death also comes at a cost, if you want to see it that way, of financial hardship and mental difficulties that people are going through. So, you know, the best thing you can do is just check up on your close friends and family to see how people are going, because some people are there, like, don't have people that they live with. So they're lonely, they don't have the incidental interactions they have with people at work, and commuting to and from work and removing all of that from someone's daily life. We're in absolutely unprecedented times, especially in Melbourne, with the fact that we can't move around and even exercise for more than an hour a day and whatnot. So yeah, check up on your friends and family as much as you can. It's good advice, and I didn't mention this to Marty when we were talking about what we've done over the last couple of weeks, but this past week, just a couple of days ago, and we're recording this late Friday night, Saturday in Australia, I went to Toronto for the first time since March, obviously. And the reason I went is my sister lives there, and she had to put her cat down that she's had for 15 years. I think it was a rescue cat. You know, my sister lives alone. And I just was heartbroken thinking of that and my sister. And so mask and all. And I went to Toronto to go see my sister. We got some takeout food and walked, you know, to and from that place to her place. my anxiety started to come back a little bit, just driving in a busier city. You live in Melbourne, a very busy city. I don't live in a busy city. And just seeing so many people. It's outdoors. No one's wearing masks. And I know it's different outside, but just I was thinking, oh, like my blood was starting to curl a little bit. I was like, we're not going to get fucking through this. I was just like, oh God. But I had to see my sister. And you talked about your mom, Ryan, and our friends and stuff, I have seen, since the start, maybe five people since this all began, which makes me a hermit, but again, I think I'm doing my part. Yeah, well, you're a hermit, everyone's a hermit. So it should just be everybody's in the same boat, I would expect. But also, it's affected you as well, Ryan, because one of the things that you, I guess, let's say, took advantage of was the fact that you couldn't have your machines located because you're an operator. So you started renting your machines out. How's that gone? Yeah, it's been really good. One, because it forces me to, I guess, interact with some people that I know in the community. Like there's a bunch of competition guys that have been on like a monthly basis of just getting in new machines. So I get to see them even just for 10 or 20 minutes at a time. But also, I guess it's opened up a different business, I guess, avenue for me. And I never intended for pinball to be a business, anything much more than a little side hobby. But I guess there is a market there. And with the rising costs of pinball machines, I mean, there's a guy who's renting a bunch of pinball machines off me. And I kind of tried to pick his brain a little bit. and he said, Ryan, if I was to buy five new pinball machines or four new pinball machines from Stern or JTP, they would cost me, you know, in Australia, let's say $40,000. And I'm not ready to make that commitment. I don't know what games I like at the moment. I don't know what games I'll get sick of after a month. And we've all been through that phase, right? You get a pinball machine, you know, sight unseen, and you can try and justify it in your mind. Well, I guess I like it because I spend as much money on it. If you're renting it and you know you can get it back after a month, then you can be totally honest with it, right? You can say, well, this is not for me. And I've had my fun with it. I've played the crap out of it for a month, and that's it. And I guess that's what this rental service is allowing people to do. And I didn't invent it. It's been around for a while. I'm just doing it, I think, at a lot lower cost than normal because the flip side of it is if I didn't do it, then I'd have my machines sitting at an empty pub with an unknown open date. It's guaranteed money, too, where you kind of roll the dice at an arcade where, you know, you hope the traffic is good, you hope the game is popular. You know, somebody renting it, whether it be a month or two months, you know they're going to want to play the heck out of it, and they're going to get their money's worth, too. So I think everybody wins. Yeah, it is a win-win situation, and the great thing about it is if I rent it out for X amount of dollars, all of that is mine, whereas, well, obviously the government as well takes the cut. But in the sense that when you have machines out on location, yeah, you've got to do a split. You've got to do a split with the location. And sometimes you have good months. Sometimes you have bad months. Sometimes people spear beer on your pinball machine and don't look after it and you don't know who it is. And there's no accountability. So, yeah, I think when things get back to normal, I'll probably do a 50-50 where I'll continue the rental service if there's a market for it. Obviously, as I said, we live in strange times at the moment where people are bored out of their brains. and a pinball machine is a good reason to stay home, right? Yeah, well, we're fortunate, all three of us, having pinball machines at home. I know from my social media feeds that there are people that don't have pinball machines at home and maybe don't even have the means to rent one or the actual space in the house. They're going a bit stir-crazy because they don't get a pinball fix and haven't for, let's say, close to six months. Can I tell you one more thing as well that was surprising to me, which is also like an incidental, really great thing that happened to me is that I pushed out some more machines right before lockdown that I didn't think I would rent out. And now my dirty dungeon is pretty bare. I pretty much only have the old, unrentable 80s machines and a couple of others that like at Ali's that I don't want to rent out. And I guess it's made me realize that I don't, it's kind of refreshing to walk down there and not see an absolute packed basement because I don't need that many pinball machines. And now you can build that red room of pain that you always wanted.
    27:46
    Everyone jokes about kind of like collecting being, you know, a hobby, but also sometimes a bit of a sickness where you don't know when to stop and whatnot. And I think doing this has freed my mind up a little bit and made me realize I can just have a couple of machines and my other machines can be out. And, you know, at somebody else's house, being rented somewhere, I don't need to have that many machines myself unless I want to run, I don't know, the pinball profile world tour at my house. I can't remember who won that thing, but it was somebody. It hasn't been mentioned on the show enough. There's our episode quota. It's done.
    28:23
    I think that's mentioned more than our sponsor of the week, but that's fine. You know what There are no competitions It still fresh Now that being said you did run a lot of competitions I wondering about what you both think when we come out of this Will the IFPA continue to grow Will people be so far removed from pinball competitions that they may have found another hobby Video game sales, first of all, have gone through the roof. I can't tell you how many PlayStation games I've completed in the last, let's say, three months. Because it's either pinball or it's video games.
    28:58
    Really good question. I honestly think it is, so far in the future, that moment. That moment where it's normalised. And I'm predicting it's going to be 12 months. 12 months until it's back to the capacity of what it could have been. We're not even out of it. There's still no signs of a vaccine. Yes, I know that there's been some studies and some trials that are showing promise, but they're still saying it's going to be six months until there's at least a vaccine. Then I reckon there's another six months of residual until everyone feels that they're back to normality.
    29:39
    That's 12 months. So I don't know what competitions are going to be at that stage. What do you think, Ryan? Yeah, I was actually thinking about this for the first time the other day because I think someone asked me a question about the running of competitions. I can't remember what it was. and I thought to myself, like, huh, I don't actually know. I don't remember that. Like, ever since you introduced me to competitive pinball, Marty, it's kind of been like, and that was maybe, what, three years ago, or it's kind of been go, go, go, and it's been this steady increase for me personally, and I was always involved in it and always getting more and more involved in it. And now that I've been removed myself, I actually, I don't think about, I think about pinball, but I don't think about competitions because it's just not happening. So I actually have forgotten how, I can't remember, was it how a foot frenzy ran or how a match play ran or whatever it was. And I'm like, if I'm forgetting about this, then surely other people are also forgetting about it. And there have been some, like even with pinball trivia, there's the diehards that are there, but there's some people that have kind of dropped off the face of the earth, and your only interaction with them is seeing them maybe once every two weeks or once a month at a pinball comp. So I think there's definitely going to be a drop-off. People maybe will lose their passion for the competitive aspect of pinball. But at the same time, I think there'll also be a fresh batch of people, I guess, looking for new experiences out of, you know, isolation or whatever you want to call it. Whereas there might be more people out. There might be more people that are dropping out of whatever hobby they were in before and seeking something new. Well, there's other factors, too, about your safety, your security. There's the economy. You know, maybe you've been put out by COVID-19 financially, like a lot of people have. So we also have less venues. Our friends at Silver Bowl Saloon sadly had to close their doors last weekend. And I know that we're thinking of Bruce and Cat Nightingale, but that's just one of many places that have closed down. These were homes to stern armies. I'm wondering what's going to happen with leagues. And again, just there's a lot of different factors when it comes to competitive pinball. and we might be taking a step back. Who knows? Yeah, I think there's going to have to be a rebuild phase and also one of the many hats that Ryan has, he's also an IFPA State Director for Victoria. So, I don't know, I guess there may be some pressure that you might feel having to build it back up. Yeah, and also in Melbourne, a long-standing pinball venue called the Argonauts Arcade. Shattered stores. I had a pinball machine there, but it was mainly a bunch of other guys. It was kind of like a collaboration, and everyone removed their pinball machines about two weeks ago. And, yeah, I'm not sure if having less venues makes the other venues that are going to still have pinball machines there more popular, but surely having more venues and more machines out there, considering people's locations and how they get to and from work and the time of these tournaments, it's probably going to have a negative effect on attendance initially. Again, with the big shows, that involves a lot of travel and the costs that go with that, whereas if you have a local venue, it's all right there because a lot of the bigger events and leagues aren't done necessarily in people's homes. As the number of people grow and grow, you can only have so many people in your home. We'll have to see. I mean, we don't know, but I think we're just speculating. But I wonder how many other people are going to get into operating. If they've had success doing what you've done, renting games, that might still be encouraging as a possible way to earn income. But not everyone is as fortunate as you are to be able to rent out your machines. And maybe they're locked in venues that are still somewhat open, still having some capacity, but the revenues just aren't there. Yes. all right uh good good follow-up boys well done i can see why i had the head still going holy shit i'm i'm i'm through my like second tissue box already jeff she's depressing me shit all right well let's fucking turn it up what's going on with uh you and jesse j so we heard on the first episode this is somebody you met on a dating app and she's a big fan of pinball and she's kind of learning a lot. I think she's learned a lot in a short period of time in just the few episodes that you've had. Tell us about Jessie J. Yeah, I'm not sure if I'm going to regret telling everyone that we met on a dating app because I'm getting a lot of kind of questions now like, hey, so why did you stop seeing her? And I'm just like, ah, none of your business. But yeah, Jessie is a great girl and she's incredibly positive and I kind of see a little bit of mispeak in her where everything is new and exciting and from what we know with ourselves getting into pinball after a while the new sheen of things and the excitement can sometimes wear off and you can still be positive about pinball but you know a new pinball release or you know you're doing themes and things like that they can sometimes become boring. So I'm excited by her excitement in pinball, and it's all positive, and she doesn't know what pin side is, and drama, and this and that. She doesn't care, which is good. I think she's a good, positive future role model for females in pinball, and if I can do anything to help with that, then yeah, that's my position, I guess, in the podcast. Are you actively encouraging her innocence? meaning to avoid the negative sides of pinball just to keep her optimism or were you just like, you know what, just go out there and explore? Yeah. No, there's certain rules in place which, you know, she can... Well, I mean, she can do whatever she wants but I'm just like, hey, there's this place called Pinside you're not allowed to go there unless I specifically link you something. That's an invite, she'll go right away. No, she's pretty good with her stuff. She actually is a very positive person and she's curious. Like, I think the only time she's gone off and done her own research is when I started talking a little bit about Python Angelo. And, I mean, it is a bit weird that she's getting most of her information from me because I'm not the most knowledgeable. I could just say, hey, listen to Ron and Dennis on Silver Ball Chronicles and that's all you need to know. But I enjoy kind of feeding her information and her discovering it at a bit of a slower pace. Actually, you made a good point there because David Dennis has only been in pinball for a couple of years And here he is doing a show on the history of pinball. So he's had a quick learning curve. And when you have somebody like Ron who knows everything, I mean, yeah, that's a good way to maybe accelerate her pinball knowledge. Not a bad idea. Yeah. And she mentioned the other day that she wanted to get into competitive pinball. And when she said that, I kind of thought about, remember Roger Sharp, how he started talking about his kids and not wanting them to get into competitive pinball too early? She's not a kid. but I still feel like I have to shield her from a little bit of that because it is very early on and competitive pinball does change you a little bit, doesn't it? Marty, do you hear when he talked to her about you have certain games that you like, Jesse, and once you get into competitive pinball, you will not like those games. Did you hear that? Yeah, and it's true to an extent because without competitive pinball, you play the game. So you play all the game. A lot of the machines are like, well, you don't play that way. And we talked about this in a previous episode when I was going on about Guardians of the Galaxy where I just wanted to play it because I liked the colour of a certain mode or I just liked the shots. And everyone in chat was screaming out saying, why did you pick that mode? You're meant to pick this mode. It's like, well, because I just want to enjoy the machine. Sometimes competitive pinball sort of forces you down a prescribed avenue and sometimes it's quite repetitive and that's where it can sort of take some of the fun out of the way. When Mark Ritchie and... Who was the software guy in Indiana Jones? Something, Boone, something? Maybe, possibly? Anyway, when they were designing Indiana Jones, I don't think they once thought, hey, when this is played in a competition, let's make sure that Carl D'Angelo isn't hitting super jackpots over and over again or, you know, whatever it may be. It just wasn't in their frame of mind. It was like, let's make an awesome game and make sure it makes lots of money for Williams and on location. So you can't, yeah, with some of the newer games, they're a bit more balanced, and we have those great discussions about, isn't Jurassic Park amazing? Because you can do this, this, and that in any setting, if it's on location, in your home, or in competition. But you can't be harsh and critical on games from, you know, the 90s and the early 2000s when there's a scoring exploit. But that's what we do, because we play them competitively, and we can't help but moan and complain when we have to play something with a repeatable shot. It's Brian Eddy, by the way, that did the software. Oh, nice. Yeah, and I get back to Jessie J. I like her outlook at the moment because it's not tainted by the rules that we have come to abide by. For example, when she has a dream theme and she says Danzig, for example, everyone would jump in and say, oh, no one would ever make that machine. well, that's stopping the dream. You know, you should want to be able to have a dream thing based on your personal taste. Yeah, and when she talks about, well, why do we have to have, like, you know, white rock themes? And the answer is so obvious to all three of us because we know they sell and we know the nostalgia, etc. But, yeah, you quickly forget what the average person out there is thinking about people from a new person's lens because you just dismiss everything so quickly because we 100% live in a pinball bubble and you have to be constantly reminded that what is obvious to us and what is important to us is not the same for someone new into pinball. What's interesting is we actually got a great email this week from another Jesse and these questions, I think they do come from that same outlook outlook, which is why? Why are things a certain way? And one of the questions that Jesse poses, and I'll just read this one out because it's about competitive pinball and casual. This is about the difference between pinheads who play in tournaments and those who choose not to. He says, I mean, personally, I can't quite fathom why anyone who loves pinball doesn't play in leagues or tournaments. And I don't mean the casuals at the Bahu pop through two times a week can play whatever games, have flashy start buttons. I mean, people who own multiple pins but don't play competitive. What do you think? I think there are people that are just happy playing in their own little, pardon the pun, bubble, whether it's at home or maybe a small league, if even that, or just having a few friends over. There are popular leagues here where I live. They have nothing to do with IPA. It's definitely about the social. They might do some split flippers or mixed combos or really a co-op mode in a way. They're just having fun playing pinball where the competition just doesn't drive them. So I get that. For me, it was always playing sports and always wanted to one better my own personal goals and maybe some of the friends I was playing. So that's what kind of got me into it. And I like the structure of the IFPA. And then when I heard about these tournaments, I had so much fun at these tournaments. the social thing. Look at, the three of us are talking about not even pinball. We missed a term. It's because of the social aspect. Well, if you don't like people, maybe pinball tournaments aren't for you. But Ryan and I have been to many of these back when we could. There used to always be a monthly pinball meet. And I would say, it was probably 50-50. 50% of the people there we knew went to tournaments. Sometimes casually, sometimes all the time. But there was 50% of people that you would only go to these meet and they actively didn't want to go to tournaments and I think it's because some people just like to play for fun and it's not about winning or losing yeah and that it was very hard for me and maybe I still haven't wrapped my head around it to understand those people because I tried a little bit to merge those two scenes together because there was one guy basically organizing it all and he spent a lot of time doing it a lot of effort to organize monthly open houses basically and it was great because no other state was doing it um it really kept the community together but i said wouldn't it be great if we can join the competition community and these monthly meets together where you know we can run a little side tournament just to ease people into it to say you know and just choose a fun format but there was always a very heavy resistance to it And when you proposed that, what was the reaction from the community?
    43:05
    Well, it depends who I asked. When I asked the guy who was organizing, he very kind of politely said no. But there was one time where I didn't ask him, and it was at someone's house, and it was a Christmas party. And I said, I'm just going to bring four of my own machines. I can't remember what was the exact deal. and we'll run a comp in a separate room. But there's going to be so many people, there's going to be like 50 people there, it'll just be fun and I'll just drag people in and say, play your four games and if you make finals, you make finals. And even though I tried my hardest to separate everything to say, I'm not going to take any pinball machines from this room, it's optional, this, this and that, some people were actually very, very upset that I was doing it and they used words like hijacking and, you know, trying to push my own agenda and things like that to the point where I just gave up and said, well, that's fine.
    44:02
    But it kind of proves that people, yeah, like people just, they don't see competitions as fun and regardless of what you try and do to prove them wrong, you can't convince them, full stop. So I respect it. I respect people don't want to play comps, which is absolutely fine. But, yeah, it's hard to see the other lens sometimes. Good question, Jesse. A lot of factors in there. Ryan mentioned a few. Marty mentioned a few. There are others that include the costs, the waiting around, the travel that some competitions have, the difficulty level of the games being set, something you might not be used to. And if you have a bad first experience, and we talked about this last week with Carl D'Angelo, or you come across some jerk or something like that, it's going to turn you off. So you really have to love pinball and give it maybe more than one try. And if it's not for you, it's not for you. But there are some 80,000 IFPA players, and it keeps growing every year. We'll see if that continues in 2021 when we get back to it. What were some of the other questions Jesse asked? So here's another one. So how is the games chosen for the final round banks of machines which the playoffs have played? How is it decided what games will be in the banks? There's a couple of parts to this question. Who is the person who gets to say, okay, this game is competition worthy and up to snuff? What criteria are there to determine this and why is it that you can tell some games are more tilt sensitive than others? I would imagine there's some kind of standard for this. The tilt sensitivity is, you look at the time factor, how long do you want people to play these games? And things like ball saves are turned down or turned off. Rubbers are sometimes removed. Those are factors, too, because a lot of these big tournaments have hard end times. You have to get out of this facility by such and such time, or you don't want it to go forever. Those are why you see the tough tilts, and maybe why, when you look at the research, and again, with Carl's Never Drain Software, you can see how long people are playing games. So those are factors into, okay, that game's playing really long. Do we really want that play in the finals? So the tournament directors might pull that. They want to know what's exciting. Maybe they want to show off a new game. There's all kinds of factors. Yeah, look, it comes back to really the time and the type of format that you want to give to the community that you've got. And I'll say this, Ryan and I have had a back and forth discussion about how he sets up his machines, which ultimately I've now really come to appreciate because you do set them up quite tough. But my take on that is because you want people to have a lot of games, just not long games.
    46:41
    Yeah, it's... I still don't know if it's the right choice, because I think it also scares... It depends on how new someone is to pinball. If someone... Like, when Jess came to my house for the first time and I put her up on the shadow, I'm like, oh, let me take the glass off. Are you describing the date? What the hell are you talking about? No. Take the glass off, yeah. What the hell?
    47:04
    I tried to make the game a little bit easier for her, and she's just like, no, I'll just play it how it is. And the game was brutal, And she loves it, but it's because it was the first time she played the game. Whereas if she maybe played a game and she has great memories of it being a certain difficulty, and then she plays a hard version of it, she's going to say, well, that wasn't fun. So it really depends, because, yeah, if a game is too hard, then you might get a bit of a bruised ego. But if a game is too easy, and you've got one of the world's best players on it, then guess what? You might have a good game, but they might be playing for 45 minutes on it, and no one wants to watch that. I've avoided returning to tournaments where I didn't like the way the games were set up. And, you know, you talk and suggest and you make sure you're not alone in that feeling. You talk to the TDs about it, and if they don't care, well, then I might not care to come back. But you have to expect that they're going to be tougher in tournaments. I think the main thing here is, regardless of whether they're tough or easy, just make sure the machines are in good condition. You know, that they play well, that they flip fast, that there's nothing broken. Oh my god, I was playing a Metallica once, Marty, and I was about to win and get into the finals, and then the snake shot the ball directly down the middle. What a piece of shit game that was.
    48:23
    Yeah, that happens. For everyone who doesn't know, the first tournament that I ran at my place, my Metallica snake was acting up a little bit. I spent a lot of time trying to adjust it, and it behaved itself all day, and then Marty held down the button to get the, what's it called, like to see how many more shots he had to get to crank it up. Yep. And he just needed to hit the snake once. So he got the ball into the snake's mouth, crank it up was lit, and he probably would have made the shot and basically won the entire tournament. And the snake then proceeded to shoot the ball directly down the middle. And Marty just turned around and looked at me and just shook his head. And that's when you quit head-to-head.
    49:07
    We can no longer continue. But really the answer to the overarching question really is it's up to the tournament director to... Usually they select the final round of the banks of machines. They select the tilt sensitivity and they set up the machines. The question which was what is competition worthy and up to snuff is almost as separate because there are some machines that are just not very good in a competitive scene. and if you go to Papa Pinball, whatever it is, Papa.org. Yep. They have a list of machines that are good for tournaments and they also say why certain machines aren't good for tournaments. Things like lock stealing is usually not good for tournaments. Some games that have a random catch-up feature, a lot of the Gottlieb Premier games have that, don't put them in a tournament. Can you think of any other games? Back to the Future has a thing where if you're playing multiplayer games, you can basically catch up or double the score of the other person. So things like that, that are unbalanced, it's all about the balancing of the games and the scoring. So that's a big factor. And again, you know, that list on papa.org also, the one thing about this whole picking the games is you want to make sure games are working because you don't want games with bugs or issues. And that's not just the final round, that's the whole tournament. If you are not sure about a game, it's probably not a good idea to put it in your tournament. Definitely not in the final round. Well, can we dive a tiny bit deeper into this? Because I remember on Pinball Profile, Jeff, I'm pretty sure it was your interview with Kaylee George. He kind of made a comment. I can't remember if he made a comment on that, or maybe he was commentating somewhere on the World Champs, and he kind of made a comment relating maybe to high hands and EMs in the final bake of Pinberg, where they will potentially sacrifice a more balanced game for better viewing. Do you guys have any comments on that? I think viewing is a big part of it, too, if you have a built-in audience. I think it's a minor part. I think really you want the games with the least amount of issues. But if you've got a new game, you kind of want to probably show it off. And the problem with a lot of new games, I remember the first time Jurassic Park was in a tournament. It was in Toronto at the CNEPC last year. and I remember saying to Keith, hey, they've got this new tournament, and the first thing he said was, it's not tournament ready yet. And that's his game. I also remember, yeah, Keith losing on Iron Maiden when his strategy was just to hit loops, and he knew it was, I think they balanced it out a little bit after that, but he knew with that code that he could just sit there and hit super loops and quite quickly pump up a big score. and no one else went for that strategy, but I think he still came second or third in that game. But I think what I was saying was more related to EMs. There's certain EMs that are just riveting to watch because it's so easy to understand what the rules are, like high hands, but does that necessarily make the best competitive game for a final bank? Yeah, the whipped event with Spanish eyes was fantastic. Funny you should mention that about Keith and his knowledge of Iron Maiden versus everybody else because this is another question that came from Jesse. This is a somewhat controversial question because it has been discussed. You ready? Here we go. Why are the people who make and design the games never in the tournaments? Okay, we can correct that. But other than Keith Elwyn, who's recently making games, Tim Sex and the Lime and Sheets, I can't think of another industry person who's well known... Keith Johnson. in the comps. There's Keith Johnson. Lance Meats. Well, they are... Joe Katz. I think he's talking about the designers themselves. So he's saying, you know, Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawler, George Gomez. These guys that made all these games aren't hardcore players. What gives? On that note, fast forward to Pingberg 2023. Keith Elwin is in the finals. Can Iron Maiden or Jurassic Park be a potential game? seems like playing against the guy who made the game seems a little unfair. How is this taken into account? I don't think by 2023, if those games are in, it would be unfair because everyone has had an opportunity to play it. A big concern I had at, I don't know if it was the Stern Pro Circuit, I don't even want to say which one it was, the finals. I went to an event, Chicago Expo was definitely a concern with me last year. They had a lot of the new Stern games that were out, and a lot of people had never played them. The Stern Pin was in. No one played it. Elvira House of Horrors was in. That was the first time we were playing it. That, I found, was a bit of a disadvantage, but only for a very small select few people. If we're all in the same boat and we all haven't played the game, I guess it's fair. But I think a designer of a game, and Keith certainly is a guy who's going to be making a lot of games in the future, after even three, six months, everyone's had lots of time on that. I think it's an even playing field. It depends about the three or six month thing because, I mean, I guess the timeline doesn't matter too much to fuss about. But the code updates, I mean, there's always imbalances with certain modes and things like that. And they might be in beta testing for a month or so beforehand where everyone at Stern might know that, hey, this strategy is going to be killed because you can't just get into chaos and do super slings. Like your score will be too high. whereas everyone else might get used to that. Remember Guardians of the Galaxy? It was like grid all day, orb all day and then it was what everyone does now.
    54:50
    Modes all day. The right colour modes, Marty. In a certain order, yeah. Yes. Yeah, is it fair? And I know that there have been a lot of discussions about this and trying to draw parallels to other sports as to whether you would have people that make the rules compete as well. So I personally just think it's not that serious to really be concerned about that kind of stuff. But I can understand that people are going to be against that seemingly advantage that these players have. I'll tell you what, if there's a designer of a game and it's a brand new game, I'd be more worried about playing the person who coded the game than the actual designer of the game because of possible exploits. Especially if you notice them do Hey what's this flipper code they're entering right before they start playing Left right right right What the hell is that Yeah No I mean again I think after a time it's kind of an even playing field There was one more question from Jesse wasn't there The previous point was Why are designers like Steve Ritchie, Pat Lawler, George Gomez Why are they Not hardcore players And I think that comes back To our first question They are hardcore players Absolutely hardcore players In fact, they probably play more pinball Than anyone we know They're just not tournament players I know John Norris was a massive competitive player In fact, he's one of the creators of pin golf He and Roger Sharp and some of these other people Roger Sharp was definitely a competitive player Roger was the key from the day So, yeah, they're out there I imagine it's difficult to travel Like a lot of the top players in the world so they're just maybe playing their local leagues and probably getting their games in. But, you know, it's different when it's also your business too. I've been in radio for years, but I don't want to be, you know, jumping on a mic, oh, fuck, I guess I am all the time. Jeez, on these podcasts.
    56:54
    Yeah, that's not so great. But does Steve Ritchie need to play in tournaments to make a great tournament game Ooh good question Well he not really designed the rules though is he Keith Allen in a position where he kind of doing both But I think it definitely helps. I mean, the more obsessed you are with something, you know, as long as you can zoom out and take a different view of it, I think the better you can possibly be. But one thing before we move on from you mentioned George Gomez there for a sec. Did you guys see that George Gomez posted that you can get a Stern Star Wars jigsaw puzzle now? I did. From Buffalo Games or whoever makes, I bought some Buffalo Games puzzles, and they're really good. That's pretty cool. That's branching out with all things pinball. Exactly. So it's, I guess, I'm not sure if Stern make any money off this, but there's a little part of the puzzle that says, Star Wars find this featured artwork from Stern Star Wars pin only at Stern Pinball. So it's a back glass, I believe, for their reduced pinball machine, the pin. It's the same back glass as the other one, though. Yeah, yeah. I think it's the same as the pro. And it's a 1,000-piece puzzle, which I think is just a cool cross-promotion for pinball. Are you getting it? No, I don't really care about Star Wars. You're like me. We do a lot of puzzles, Ryan. and let people know our little secrets. But I've done about 30 since the COVID started. I only did about three or four, but I found my puzzle collection, which is over 30 1,000-plus-piece puzzles. And, yeah, it's nice and relaxing. I like putting things back together. No time for puzzles. Time for dating apps, though. Okay, I got it.
    58:44
    All right, one last question. It's a silly question, but I'm sure many have pondered. who gets free pins from licensed games?
    58:53
    So Star Wars, does George Lucas get a game? Stranger Things, does Dustin get a free game? Hopper did the voice call out. Does he get a free game? He said ACDC. They better have sent Phil Rudd a free game to his sheep farm or revenue. He said I hope each member of Iron Maiden has a game in their house. Do they have to ask or does it just show up? I know Sander Bullock didn't get a game of Demolition Man. You stole my joke, Jeff. I was waiting for you to stop talking. I'm like, we know if you didn't get a game.
    59:22
    You know the key to comedy, right, Ryan? Timing. Jumping first. I don't think there's a rule for this, is really the summary for me. Some people do, some people don't. It's all part of their deal. Negotiation. It's whatever they negotiate. I mean, I'm sure they would like to have it. Dre D'Amato, who is in The Sopranos, did a recent podcast, and she talked about how she loves pinball, and of course she has the Sopranos pinball. I remember meeting Jason Sudeikis years ago, and he's a big pinhead, and I asked him, you know, knowing that he's with Olivia Wilde, I'm like, do you have Tron? And he looked at me like I had two heads, like, what do you think? I'm like, oh, yeah, of course. But was he giving it, or did he have to buy it? I'm sure he bought it. I didn't ask. No, I know. But I know that the members of Kith, for example, they got a free game. Well, they also got a deal where they had a thousand, I believe. Sorry, a thousand. They had a hundred alleys that were specifically theirs that they all signed an apron card and tried to sell on their official KISS merchandise website for an inflated price. And I believe they only sold one or two and then sold those alleys back to Stern. So, as you said, it's all in the negotiation. Great, deep question, Jesse. Thanks very much. You can email us at... Was that heading over to me, was it? Yes, that's a softball to you. Jeez.
    60:50
    Find around pinball at gmail.com. Guys, can we take a two-minute break? I just got this message. Daddy, is the toilet clogged? I don't know what happened. I went to go to the toilet and it clogged. And when I went to the toilet and I pooped, the toilet and the water won't go down. Can you please help me?
    61:11
    Go and have a look. I'm not sure how long it's going to take to deal with this situation. just give me a second hello how bad was it giant floating turd she kept on flushing it so the water was almost near the top oh my god did you get rid of it or what yeah I just there was too much toilet paper in anyway it's fine I just had to grab the fucking scrubber thing and not look because I almost yeah yeah and just push it down Just dad, you'd be... So you've corrected the problem. Everything's fine now, Orion? Everything's fine. A-okay. Bring on your daughter. Let's talk to her. Okay.
    61:55
    Hi. Hi, V. How are you? Good. What happened to the toilet? So I was busting, and I think it's easy to hear. Don't touch the Lego we were playing with. And then what happened was I went, and I looked in the toilet, and it was closed, and I was about to pee on the floor. So I just hopped on and I pooped. And then what happened was when I went to flush, used so much toilet paper that the water just riced all the way up to the toilet seat. And then I knocked on Daddy's door and he was talking to you, so I messaged him and he went and he tried to unclog the toilet. Are you sure it was your sister? Yeah, because it was already clogged. Hello, V, it's Martin here. We haven't seen you in a long time. What's your favorite pinball machine at the moment? Do you still have favorite applause? No. I'll get into something. No.
    62:52
    Um, I don't know. Well, you get back to your Lego. It's good talking to you. I hope you're doing well. Okay, bye. Okay, take care. Bye. Well, thanks again for that email, but part of the reason we want Ryan on is because I always enjoyed the two of you on head-to-head pinball. And once in a while, you'd get on these weird tangents. We're going to do that right now, because there's nothing else to talk about in pinball, so let's make something up.
    63:23
    Ryan. What we do? Marty and I have been having these battles about things like, oh, what's a crappy movie but a great pinball machine? Well, we've kind of done that. We've got a big grand finale coming up soon, but while we have you on right now, and make sure Jesse J doesn't go on Pinside, we're going to go to Pinside, and we're going to figure out what the most underrated pinball machine is, and here are the conditions. At the time of this recording, it cannot be in the top 100 on Pinside. Although, I don't even know about these rankings. Do you know what the number one pinball machine is right now, Ryan? Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle. Number one machine of all time. By the time the episode is released, it's always a thing, right? It's up there for a week, and then everyone downloads it, and then it goes down further than it belongs, and then it works its way back up. Yeah. The top of the top 100, which is effectively a top 300 and something, is a bit of a revolving door. I'll tell you what's not a revolving door. It's the bottom machine on the pin side rankings. Well, I'm going to upvote Thunderbirds right now, damn it. That's a great... No, I can't do it. Can't do it. What happened to his Can't do it I know this is not really like a super news-related pinball podcast But did anything happen with his second pinball machine? Did he release it? It's not for you China zombies or whatever?
    64:47
    And is Raven really that bad? Is Raven really the fourth? Raven's bad Oh, it's not good It's really not good And it's not just that the layout's okay But the rules are so bad And Harley Davidson is the eighth worst pinball machine of all time Hold on. So we're going to be talking about some underrated games. Now, on that last page, I'll tell you this. A game that is listed at 338 out of 342 games. I played it in disc in the back room there with all those other machines. And I have to tell you, I think it's extremely underrated. I'm not picking it as my list. I'm just putting it out. The game Hardbody is actually a really fun game to play. It's a good game. It is, isn't it? Absolutely agree with you. Yep. I would buy one. I'm telling you right now. And Mordor Harnie would too. She loves it. Yeah. I've actually never seen one in Australia. Have you seen one in Marnie?
    65:38
    Yes, I have. Back in the day, I remember playing it when it came out, but I've not seen it since. Not in recent, not since coming back to pinball have I seen it, except for overseas. Definitely not in Australia.
    65:52
    Yeah, I don't know. No one really has got days of that era in their collection. It's a Bally 87 game. Bally, okay. All right. So, Marty, how are we going to do this? I say you pick eight games and I pick eight games. Sixteen different games. We'll see them later maybe. We'll figure out how to do that and we'll let the voters decide. But we've got a voter with us right now. Ryan, see who knows a little bit about everything or can fake it. He will help us out with the most underrated. So, Ryan, think of a number between one and ten and whoever's closest to it, under beating over, we'll get the first pick and then we'll just alternate. Do you have a number? Six. Dick! We're going to try to guess it. I guess six.
    66:33
    Did I write it right? Okay. All right. I've thought of a number. Well, I'm not going to say it's a different number. It could also be six again.
    66:42
    I'd like to ask a question before I answer the question, just in true fashion to our earlier Pimber question where people wanted to know the rules. Will it be a whole number? Are we talking about possible fractions? Is this a whole number? It's a whole number. Between one and ten. And, Marty, I'll even give you the first guess. Go ahead. I will pick three.
    67:02
    It's six again. You know what? Forget the most underrated. Let's just play Guess the Number. Yeah, whatever. Next round. Is it six? Fascinating game that is. Yeah. I made a list of 16 games in case we had games that were similar. I've got 20. 20 games. But you know me. I got the game. Oh, no. the years of rank, the design of the art, and who coded it. So let's go. Okay. I wasn't expecting to go first. I'm going to take the first seed. Okay. But I didn't know if I had to pick out of all these games, what I would consider is the most underrated game. Based on Pinside and not being in the top 100, I will pick Jackbot. Okay. And we'll have 30 seconds to explain why we believe Jackbot is a great game. This is from Williams1995. It is obviously the better version of Pinbot. It is great code. The casino runs so much fun. We've seen this in different tournaments. I'm a big, big fan of this game. I don't have to go on and on about it. You know, the little cheat button at the side, that's a lot of fun as well. There's the risk and reward. You still have some great shots. They've fixed all the things from the original Pinbot, and Jackbot is the perfect game. That is my number one seed as most underrated game. Okay. Was it on your list? Just yes or no? No, because I don't think that it is underrated. I think the Pinside ranking, I don't know what number it is, does probably not do it justice.
    68:35
    But I think people hold that in high regard. I agree, it's not an underrated game. But the whole qualification here is it's underrated as far as Pinside is concerned. To me, this is a top 100 game. Should we get Ryan's point on that? Yeah, Jackpot's a great game. I think it definitely pushed out some games from the top 100, but it's also very similar to Pinbot in its layout, so I think people are going to always compare it to that, regardless of the software. Marty, your first pick. My first pick for what I think is a criminally underrated game is Mustang by Stern, which is currently sitting at 129. and I think that it is a much better game than that. It's actually got a really good rule set. I think it's actually got a fun layout. I actually really like the ramp on the left-hand side that does three things. I like the different multiballs that you can get. I love the Mustang multiball. I love Burnout multiball.
    69:38
    Art-wise, it's kind of bright and kind and it's a bit cartoony. Makes for a great tournament game as well. So I think Mustang is my most underrated game on my list. Yeah, Murray's absolutely right on that. I just went through quickly while you guys were rambling on and made my own list from 101 to 300, whatever it was, and 100% Mustang is definitely in there. It's not a horrible game. It just came out with a weird theme, bad timing, bad code, and by the time everything was kind of fixed code-wise, people have forgotten about it. And it's also now kind of like too rare for people to really get into it and appreciate it. I can't knock BM. I find it a lot of fun, too. I like the risk-reward. I like the strategy of picking different multiballs. It's a good game. It definitely should be in the top 100, I think. So I can't disagree. I'll still take Jackpot over Mustang. Just pointing that out. My next game. Fuck, Terminator. I had Terminator 2, but it just made it into the top 100 this week. Damn it. I will pick. Okay, here we go. It's a game I've always wanted to own. I enjoy it every single time I play it. Pretty good first game out of the gate, if you ask me. You pick Mustang? Okay, you got the Ford lovers? I'm picking Corvette. I think Corvette is a spectacular game. George Gomez had a lot of great ideas. We want to see that side ramp shot again. And the other ramps, great flow, good modes, lots to do, cool little super skill shot, even a little flipper code action, too. I'll take Corvette. Yeah, I agree. I cannot disagree it is such an underrated game, it is such a good game to play I think there's a theme I think car games don't rate well so don't make them, is what I'm sort of saying you know what I mean there's not, I mean tell me a car themed game that has got a good rating I don't know, High Speed, Get Away Ah, there we go Well, that's not a car theme. That is a getting away from the police theme. It's not based on a car or a vehicle. That is being a criminal degenerate theme. It really is. Like, okay, what car is in The Getaway? A Corvette. Is it, though? Steve Ritchie's car that he drove from California. It's probably a Ferrari. He got busted. It's not like Mustang or Corvette or Viper night driving, which is about the car, the Viper. It's not based on the actual car itself. So there you go. Okay. So you had Corvette, and I think, great. My next... Do Ryan say anything about that? I am embarrassed to say that I have been around Corvette a bunch of times, and I never played it. And not because I didn't want to. I just have actually never played a game of Corvette ever. By the way, other great car games? Indy 500, Top 100, Taxi. That's a car.
    72:44
    No. Indy 500. It's a little fun. It's not a car. It's a race. But also, it's not ranked that well. By the way, did Corvette make your top little list that you thought was underrated? It didn't. I don't know. I think that it's kind of... I think it's where it should be. It is a great game. I mean, as you said, it's George Gomez's first game he ever did. It's really flowy, which is really good. Just the theme, yeah, whatever. Oh, but Mustang was fine. So Corvette, terrible theme. Mustang, brilliant theme. Got it. I think good game, terrible theme. Mustang is a great game with a terrible theme. Okay, fair enough. Your turn. My turn. Currently ranked 109 on Pennside. also a George Gomez game. Could... I hate to say it. Sorry, Kevin. Possibly the worst art in pinball ever.
    73:43
    Worst art. From CERN, 2005. We're talking Sopranos. I had that on my list. You had that on your list? Yeah. Of course I did. Why is it underrated? Well, again, I think it's one of these things that people sort of think, I don't understand why this became a pinball machine. It's such a spooky sort of thing to do with people. Art-wise, it is terrible. The back glass is just like a stock photo from a DVD cover. The art on the play field is terrible. I don't know why it hasn't really ranked higher than it is because what it's got going for it is a really, really good Gomez layout. I think it's got a great, fun rule set. very easy to understand what you need to do to get to the wizard mode. It's got that mode where they just go fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck. What's not to love? Sopranos. And you like endorsing stripping because that's the kind of... I'm all about that.
    74:44
    Party at the Bing. Yeah, I don't like the theme. I've never watched Sopranos, so I don't know about the theme. But yeah, go right. Yeah, I mean, I re-bought Sopranos, so I've got one again. So I had one for a little while. I was at Marty's house for probably more time than I was at mine. I think it doesn't have longevity, but it's just a fun pinball to play, and it's kind of easy to understand the rules. And I just think the sounds, you know, like it doesn't take itself too seriously. When you hit the food ramp and they'll randomly call out food, hey, have some pasta, fuzzle, or whatever they say. It's just, I don't know, I find games that will make you laugh, like Sopranos makes me laugh a lot more enjoyable than super serious games. And, yeah, Sopranos, and the shots feel good as well. The shots feel really good. I have some games, Marty, in your next six you better be mentioning because you've mentioned them a lot, so they're wide open for you to pick. I will get to my third game right now. Do I take a game that I know will automatically lose in a bracket, or do I have the integrity to say, you probably haven't played this game, But if you have, it is spectacular. Hmm. What do I do? Do I want to win or do I want to edumacate? Ah. It's too early to edumacate. I'm going to take a sappy one. Okay, go. Okay. I don't know how many people have had a chance to play this game. It's a very, very fun game, deep game, risk-reward game, lots of action. You've got multi-balls. Oh, it's an older game. It's got some funky art. Originally meant to be a game called Las Vegas. The Roger Sharp classic, Barracora. I had no idea about this game. I first came across it in a league. My buddy Dan Bitterlick owned one in the Tri-City Pinball League. And I immediately fell in love with this game and have looked for one ever since then because there are a lot of great shots on there. The brilliant drop target strategies. In order, on both sides, the multi-balls and going in the correct order. The little horseshoe on the upper right. A lot to love about Barracora. I'm picking this game. It is right now ranked at 101, so it's not like a big stretch that it should be in the top 100, but it's a great game. If you haven't played it, you have no idea what you're missing. Yes, Greco. Love it. That hurt you to say that, didn't it? No, not really. I just think it's a bit unfair that you're picking something that's 101. What did you pick? You picked Sopranos. That was the highest one picked so far today. 209. But I felt a bit weird about picking anything that was in 100 to 200 because they're obviously great games, those rankings aren't terrible. I also did notice that Solid State Machines generally ranked a lot lower than more recent machines. So, Barracora, I think, has its ranking of 101 because it's not a modern game and there's probably not that many people that have played it. What do you think, Ryan? I mean, we have games like Ghostbusters that are at 36 and I'm not sure how they compare to some games that haven't been mentioned yet. I've got my little list here. But, yeah, there's definitely a factor where people aren't buying the games that are ranked super high secondhand. They're buying them new. They need validation. They need their ego stroked. So, yeah, we've talked about the Pinsight Top 100. I played Barricoral once. It's wise. Not enough to know actually what's going on. I haven't played it in comps. I think I played a really, really nice one at Texas Pinball Festival that was all purpled out. Yeah. I have no opinion on the game, really. enough to have a proper opinion. I'm glad I've got the ignorance support. Great, well done. Yep, well done. So I've got one that is, I would say, polarising is the best way to describe this game. 2012 Stern, currently ranked 147, so not on the cusp of 100, like some people that are trying to achieve.
    78:46
    George Gomez, Avengers. What a great theme for a pinball machine. I really love the theme because I love Avengers. And I think that, you know, at the time, people liked it. They bought it. There were some problems, particularly with the Hulk toy and the Black Widow ramp. Yep. You're having to go up and then a hard left. They fixed it on Deadpool. Go on. They did. I have no problem getting that ramp, just quietly. Managed to loop it five times I think at a tournament So whatever, stop bringing that up Good for you, I mean you're going to need to Because it's such a freaking grind game Ask Carl De Anza who just mentioned it last week No, I know, but They fixed it with code So they did put team ups into it It is so much better than people give it credit It is a terrible tournament game It's a terrible tournament game because it is that grind. And I think it's also a little bit unbalanced where if you go for your simple multi-ball, which is Hulk, it's worth very little points. Everything else is worth a lot of points, but it takes a while to get a grind, perhaps, some would say, to get to the scoring possibilities. I think it is a much better home game than it is a tournament game, but it is really underrated, and I think the more time you give it, the more you'll like it. Well, you gave it a lot of time because you certainly gave it more than 30 seconds.
    80:18
    Avengers. What do you think, Ryan? I think it falls in the same category as, for me, X-Men, except X-Men... Is way better. Yeah, X-Men is enjoyable to shoot, but both X-Men and Avengers suffer from the it's not really fun and it's not intuitive. And, yeah, it might be underrated because you really have to sit there and have it at home for a very, very, very long time to fully appreciate it. So you can say that makes it fall under the underrated category, but I am more inclined to say that it falls under the shit execution category. My buddy has 60 games at his home. Avengers is one of them. I can tell you right now, if I had to play every game once, it's in the bottom 10. Swing and a miss there, Marty. It was a good attempt. Nice try. You had a good little run there with Mustang and Sopranos, but oh well. You went for it. Good for you. That's cute. You know what? I think everybody would pick Avengers over Baron Korra. Just saying. Wow.
    81:18
    Wow. Why don't you have some guts and pick a solid state once in a while? No, he doesn't. He's sticking to the DMDs and the new ones. That's fine. I got what you're all about. I'm covering all generations, okay? Let's just take a pause before we get to our next five picks each. Let's let Ryan give a couple that haven't been mentioned, and we'll see if we wind up picking them. Ryan, what are two that come to mind to you?
    81:42
    Would you want two that I feel very strongly about, or two random ones? Your two best that haven't been picked. Okay. Number one would be Demolition Man, sitting at 110, right after Sopranos. I don't think Demolition Man is an amazing game to play for a new player, because it's also not very intuitive. but I also think it is easily in the top five games that are satisfying to shoot. Shot satisfaction, I know there's some people that don't like the word satisfying, they can go fuck themselves. It is super-duper satisfying to shoot that game, and it feels good. It makes my little pecker just...
    82:26
    I used the wrong words! I was meant to say my little arsehole pucker up, but I fucking said my little pecker. Guess what's not being edited.
    82:38
    That's a keeper. Demolition Man. The other one. Jeez, I've got so many that you guys haven't mentioned yet. I will go with... Okay, I'll go with this one. I probably don't think it's the second best on the list, but I'll go with Harlem Globetrotters sitting at 178. And the reason why I'm choosing that is because Paragon, it's a very similar game that pretty much has identical rules is sitting at 92 so I think those two games should be swapped because Harlem Globetrotters is a better game it has I think slightly better rules it has the middle spinners so you can go for different strategies whereas Paragon is just I think more iconic because of the beast layer like oh the beast layer it fucks me cool but it doesn't make it a better game those two should be swapped So I will choose Harlem as my second I'd agree with you I prefer Harlem over Paragon Well let's find out what I take For my fourth pick And I have both of those games on my list It's funny because the three Marty's mentioned Have not been on my list I believe the three I mentioned were probably not on Marty's list Correct? We do agree about the little pecker thing But I also agree about his games Are you really not editing that out? Total Keeper, are you kidding? Wait until you hear the end of the show I have to take Demoman too I totally agree I always play that game up top there are flippers at the side I find that's part of the enjoyment of that game getting to play up top it's a different feel to the game and you also get more points for combos too by doing that and you've got the little cheat code when you press all four buttons at once it gives you a jackpot in one of the multiballs as long as it's not the super lots of fun great call outs But once, Jeff, you are necessarily pressing two of the buttons. You only need to press, I believe, both of them at the same time. Both the two top ones, not all four. Well, if I'm not smart enough to remember, if I press them all, I know I've covered off two of them.
    84:42
    You might as well press the two buttons and make it all six, Jeff. I'm going to throw my knee into the start button, too, while I'm at it. Okay, I'll press the seventh launch button as well.
    84:52
    If it only had an action button. Damn it. Anyway, great game. Lots of fun. incredible flow, big, big tournament game for sure. I'm sorry, Sandra Bullock, I'm picking Demoman. Yeah, Ryan knows what I think of this game. I don't. Oh, I don't like it. So that's four games. I don't get it. I don't like it. I think it's rated where it should be. Okay, well... I think, Marnie, you value shot satisfaction a little bit lower than some other people do. Obviously, you picked Avengers. Yeah.
    85:26
    Black Widow rep, four times in a row, motherfuckers. Five times. That was five. Yeah, but you love Steve Rich's games, but I don't know. Like there games like Dialed In and Demolition Man that just shoot I think like a dream combo And you just like eh whatever combos No do you know what it is I think I just really not a fan of the super pins, and really it's because the right ramp shot is kind of where the orbit should be, and you've really got to nail that shot. Then you've got the actual orbit, which is, you know, so far to like... You've then got the left side of the machine, which is completely useless, redundant, shouldn't be there anyway. I do get that there's some good combos as well. I don't love the rules of it. I actually do like for the most part the way it shoots, just not in love with its rules. I disagree.
    86:27
    That's fine. What's your next underrated game? My next underrated game, and I think this whole giveaway when I say platform is completely underrated. This is currently sitting at 181 on Pinside. Came out in 2017. Oh, I'm sorry, it's not a solid state. Whatever. Designed by Dennis Nordman. I'm talking about Lexi Lightspeed from Multimorphic. That whole thing, completely underrated, sitting there at 181. Wait, are we talking about the platform here or the actual game? No, I'm talking about Lexi Lightspeed, the game. I'm talking about Lexi Lightspeed The game itself is sitting at 181 It should be a lot higher than that So it's a fun layout It's got the A4 multi-ball It's got great colors, it's got the video screen It's just a fun, fun game That should be rated a lot higher than 181 Okay, here's my two cents on that I also love the platform I also have it on my list, by the way So good pick but the mistake you made was you should have picked Heist. The much better, same kind of format, way better code, way more pinball-ish, if you will. That crane is spectacular. Heist definitely is a great game. I like Lexi Lightspeed too. A lot of people can't get around the suspended flippers, the suspended slings, and things like that. It's fine for me. It does feel a little bit different, but it's an easy adjustment. I enjoy playing that all the time, but Heist was the pick you should have done. But I wouldn't have picked Heist because Heist has literally just come out. So too early to determine... Going for the voters. I got it. Going for the voters. Not your heart. Got it. Well, I'm actually going for my heart. I've played Lexi Lightspeed. I've not played Heist. So why would I pick something that I haven't played? Mm-hmm. Right. Keep going.
    88:24
    Ryan? I mean, I've played it with Marty a couple of times. And, yeah, it's fun. I don't think it's necessarily underrated, though. The platform is 100% underrated. It's still mind-blowing that more of them don't exist, but still understandable with the initial outlay and cost and lack of IP on that system. But, yeah, I don't think it's underrated. Okay, we're halfway done in our four-hour show here.
    88:54
    Oh, do I pick a DMD game and screw Marty's whole gameplay? Because that's all he can pick. He won't pick anything old. Hmm, what do I do? No, I go with my damn heart. Maybe I don't. You're cold, dead hot. Okay, time.
    89:10
    Tough for me to say. I've only got four more picks. I already mentioned Harlem Globetrotters is on my list. I'll save that because I know you won't pick it because, again, it doesn't have a pretty display. I've talked about this game before many, many times. You want to talk about satisfaction in shots. It isn't that stupid shot in Avengers. I'll tell you that right now. It is what I have called over and over and over again the best spinner in pinball. Keith Elwin might agree with me. He knows a little bit about pinball. He even said on this show, I will always have a spinner in my game. It isn't the deepest game, but it's one of the most satisfying games. Rated at 119 from Williams, 1984. Listen, the USA is taking a shit-kicking right now with COVID-19. USA, baby! Space Shuttle is my most underrated game. Yay. Hands down. Thank you. It was on your list? No, it wasn't. It doesn't have a pretty display.
    90:06
    It is a phenomenal game, man. A great spinner and, yeah, a great sound, great lights. Everything about it is awesome. I'm selling it on your behalf. Isn't Space Shuttle the one where you just do one thing over and over again? It's just multiple or just hit the spinner and that's it? Yeah, it's just, yeah. Yeah. To me, it's spinner all day, which is kind of crappy, but I like that you can hit from both sides. I like that you can sweep the bank and make the spinner worth more and more. Of course, when the ball drains, you've got to start all over again, but it's just very, very satisfying. I saw Eric Stone destroy that game in Buffalo years ago. So, yeah, it's not the deepest game, but I'm telling you, for the casual player and the voters, and I'm talking to you, my good friends, who are going to click Space Shuttle when you see the poll, this is the game for you. I've got two spinner games here that haven't been mentioned yet, which are better, but I'll reveal them later on if you don't mention them. Go ahead, Marty. Game number five. Okay. Game number five. Guess what?
    91:05
    EMB. Go for the wall. It is a... I know you're talking about roller games. I haven't got roller games on my list. What? I know. Because I get why it's ranked where it is. You're in the first ever game. It's fun. I'm giving you... I'm giving you something that's, first of all, not close to the top 100. So, again, not cheating. And I'm sure you're also going to give me something that's not going to be explained in 30 seconds or less. Go on. Correct. I'm also going to give you a solid state. Wow. I'm also going to give you a wide body. I'm also going to give you a game from one of my favourite designers. So, currently sitting at 302, I'm going to give you Stellar Wars. Ah. No. There you might be. Swing and a miss. It's a fantastic game. No. Even Steve Richie doesn't even like it. Well, no, I think it's underrated. It's currently not even in the top 300. It should be in the top 290, I agree.
    92:10
    It should be close to 200, but not 300. I think there's something weird about that. It's a better game than that. Yeah, Ryan, 5,500 produced. you can buy a Stellar Wars for approximately $600. It's definitely underrated. You think it should be closer to something like Sharky's Shootout in rankings than Home Inns, Sunburst, and St. Martin? I have got one on my list that's lower.
    92:43
    I'm going to guess, but you don't have to tell me. Out of the ones lower, I mentioned I liked Hardbody a lot. That was a good one. But I would have to say if I was a betting man, The one that's lower that you like would be Nitro Groundshaker. But we'll get to that later. Yeah, we'll get to that. I will guess that Marty will say Rolling Stones. Even though he hates it, it shouldn't be that low. But let's see. It is a good game. It's just a stupid... The Mick on the Stick wrecks the game. Yeah. I will say it is incorrectly rated on Pinside. Ryan, we've only got three games left. Will we pick your other two games? What are they? The two spinner games. and these aren't necessarily my three and four, but the two spinner games, which is a better, clearly, than Space Shuttle. One is Stern Electronics' Meteor, and the other, which is possibly the greatest spinner game, is Alien Star.
    93:38
    And that game is going to get harder and harder and harder to buy when everyone realises. I think most people already realise how awesome it is, even though it's just do the thing. The thing is so damn good, and it's better than Meteor. There you go. Marty, he's picked four games on my list. Your games haven't been on anybody's list. Pinside's thinking about removing your games completely. Yeah, we'll see. IMDB is thinking about deleting any existence of any of those games, but I've got to go with Alien Star 2. Highlighted here is my third pick, and I thought, I can wait a little bit, because no way Marty will pick it. Absolutely. The do the thing, so it's about when you hit the right in lane, the spinner on the left is lit. So you want to hit it right away and maximize the points, especially during multi-ball. It's the whole game. And you can shat the shot. You can alley pass it over and try to light it and then let it roll down. It is so fun. It is how Keith Elwin won the New York City Pinball Championship when Rolling Stones almost killed him. Just in case you're having to pick that certain game later. I will go with Alien Star. Okay. So here's how you're explaining that game and all of its feature. Mm-hmm. so what you can do is you can put your coin in the coin slot and a credit registers then you hit the start button and once after that the ball comes out then you plunge so what you were doing when you were describing these things was describing two things that this pinball machine does two things is all it does and you're saying oh it's the top pick sure it's a good game it's actually of great sound, which is the bit that you're missing. Also, I love the way it looks. But you just do the thing? Sure. It's satisfying when you do it. What else is there to do? Space Shuttle's the same thing, and you agreed on that? No, but I don't do that with Space Shuttle. I play for multi-ball. I play to spell shuttle. I play to get multipliers.
    95:37
    So... Okay, Marty, the thing that you have to do, Jeff didn't probably explain it properly. First, you need to drop the side target to spell alien, and then you can just go into multiple if you want, or you can hit the spinner and it cycles through 2, 3, or 5x. So it's a risk-reward, how much you want to muck around with the spinner to get it up to 5x. Then you're in multiple, Marty, and everything is worth whatever you chose to risk-reward, double, triple, or five times. But then if you... Then you get the right in lane, and then the spinner's lit, and boom, you get the thing. Yep. Yeah, exactly. So that's a sequence of things that you have to do. It's not a given. You might be able to do it once in a game if you're lucky, and it requires a lot of skill because there's no easy way to get the ball to roll over. There's no ramp. I don't know, Ryan. It's no Stellar Wars. Maybe I made a mistake.
    96:29
    Exactly, Marty. You fucking put Stellar Wars there over Alien Star. No one's going to agree with you. No, probably people won't agree with me, but I still think the argument holds in that there's not a lot of things to do in these games. So that's why I don't think they're underrated. I think they're rated where they should be. I think you can also go for the bonus multiplier at the top. It's just not as fun as trying to rip a 50X spinner with an amazing sound. Sure. That's it. There's two things to do.
    96:58
    Just saying. You have three games left, Marty. Make it count. What is almost as good as Stellar Wars? Hit it.
    97:06
    Okay. So this is a game, again, I think is very underrated. I don't know, maybe the time that it came out. Yes, it's another George Gomez. Maybe I've got a thing for George Gomez. Came out in 1997.
    97:22
    I'm talking NBA fast break. Currently ranked at 117. Was that on your list, Ryan? Yeah, it was. Really? It was. So why are you laughing, Jeff? Well, I kind of approved it for No Fear, but it was there for a sec. No Fear's better. Go on. It's... I don't know whether you're wrong there. I think No Fear is an awesome game as well. But the reason why I'm saying this is underrated is because people just don't talk about it fondly. But when you play it, it's actually... Again, we go back to what Ryan said. It's got great shot satisfaction. I think the layout is where the shots need to be, and I love ramps that have got diverters that do different things. I think, obviously, the thing that really lets it down is people don't get the whole scoring thing. I'm going for baskets instead of points, and if you do change the code to do points, it's not as fun. But I think it is. It's a very underrated game. It's just different as well, isn't it? There's nothing remotely like it, and I know that can be not always a positive, like Thunderbirds. It's like there's nothing like Thunderbirds. It's not very good. But yeah, it's a very quirky, fun game. The best thing about NBA Fast Break is when you can link them together, which not a lot of people have two of these. You know what sucks about that game? How well do you know your basketball trivia?
    98:49
    Not very well at all. I have only ever gotten one of those questions right once. And again, it was a random answer. That's a big scoring imbalance.
    98:58
    Well, it's ten baskets versus one basket. Are you allowed to have a cheat sheet for that? No. No? Not in a tournament. You would be disqualified. So before you're playing that game, NBA Fastbreak, if you're playing in a tournament, read it before you press start. Hopefully you can try to recall the 30 or some odd questions there. Two picks left. I can't believe, Marty, you would not pick your first ever game, Roller Games. You ignored it. Your first child. It's not very parental of you. Again As I said before I don't think I mean obviously personally I think it's underrated But I think it's rated where it should be Because people just don't like the theme So I'm understanding of its rating Well I'm not going to forget my firstborn My first ever game Okay okay okay It's time for Lethal Weapon 3 From Daddy's 1992 Sold it to add to different games sold it to a person. It was their first game. Since I heard from them, they love the game. It might be one of those games, if I can get a good price on it, I would buy again. Because I did enjoy it. It was just a space issue at the time, but it was a lot of fun. There were different shots in there, Marty. It wasn't just one shot. Technically, there were only three, but it was a lot more shots. One, two, and three. The art was a little busy. I'll give you that, but good video modes, getting to fight, that was pretty cool. The shooting of the gun, you know, when the guys blink, there's lots of things You can fight, a.k.a. just smash it. You hate the action button, but if there's two action buttons, you're like, oh, that's pretty cool. The difference is the reason I don't like action buttons is because you have to move your hands. I don't mind flipping at the side. You lazy motherfucker.
    100:42
    Well, I don't want to drain my ball. At the side, let me go nuts. That's just a drum roll. Here we go. Done. At the top, eh, I don't like it. Anyway, I'll go with Lethal Weapon 3. I'd love to see you diss that game, Marty. I'm not necessarily going to diss the game I'm going to diss you So This is how head to head ended folks So here we go We're putting the final on final round Go ahead So you said that it was a space issue That you had to get rid of it So what games in your collection stayed? Was it Alien Star or Barracora that didn't go? I have not come across a Barakor or an Alien Star to buy I would buy them in a heartbeat Well, you probably have, just look on the side No, no But why would you get rid of Lethal Weapon 3 if there was a space issue if it's so good? I mean, this is hard for you to understand, Marty but when you become an elite player and you can execute everything in the game over and over and over again sometimes you get a little tired of that So I can understand how you don't comprehend that. And that was maybe part of the problem. But it still was fun. Well, you're saying it was pretty limited and you did everything. So, yeah, it didn't have staying power. Cool, got it. Beats the Weapon is the ultimate no-staying-power game. It is instant fun. I think almost everyone would have fun playing that game one or two or three times. It just gets very boring very quickly. And I had it in my collection for a little while, sold it on, I had my fun with it, and then I walked up to it at Pinfest, a little pinball gathering, and I played my first game. I'm like, oh, my gosh, why did I sell this game? This is so much fun. It is so cheap. And then I played the second game and I was like, ah, now I remember why, because it has zero staying power. It's all instant fun, no substance, typical Data East game of the 90s. Definitely ranked higher than Top 200, which it's sitting at. Maybe it's not Top 100, but it's an underrated game. All right, that's why I blew my second last one. That's bullshit. That's bullshit because that was exactly what I was saying about Stellar Wars. I wasn't saying Stellar Wars was an amazing game. I'm saying it's underrated sitting at 302. You guys should have defined that unthrowed mains. It should be in the top 100. But we didn't define that.
    103:08
    We don't define anything in our polls. That's the best thing about it because when people do our polls, they're like, are you asking me to pick the movie or is it a good movie or is it a better pinball machine? We like the vagueness of our polls, all right? Just don't ask us for the define because we make it up as we go along. Marty, your second last pick. My second last pick. And this is that same theme of I'm not saying this is a great game and it's not top 100. But it should not be 335 out of 342 machines listed.
    103:43
    This is, and we talked about it before, Harley Davidson by Stern. It is sitting at 335. It is not that bad. Guys, it just isn't. It is not setting the world on fire. I get that. But we're talking about games that are higher than it. Rolling Stones is higher. Shack Attack is higher. Orbiter One is higher. And Viper Knight Driving is higher. Just crazy. All right? There you go. Can't disagree. It should be higher than it is. If you think Lethal Weapon is boring to play more than once, Harley-Davidson is definitely boring to play more than once. How quickly you can get that pop-upper to come up in the middle, or not pop-upper, whatever you call it, the post, the up-post, it just makes for long games. I'm not saying it's great. And, you know, a wise person once said, you know, car themes and all these motorcycle themes just don't make good games. Never said motorcycle things So don't know why you're thinking I'm wise Brian what do you think? I agree it's not a great game But definitely It's almost like it's a frustration from that era Of Stern Like how dare they produce another football machine That is a copy and paste Like you hit the Harley Davidson To light multi-ball You hit the same shot to start multi-ball In multi-ball you hit it for jackpots And then it lights a super jackpot at the same shot It is just mind-blowingly numb when it comes to software creativity. But also, there are heaps of games that I dislike more than it that are higher up on the list, just like Money Sense. Playboy. I'd rather play Harley Davidson than Playboy. Any day of the week. I don't know. It's hard. What is the game or you?
    105:39
    Okay, this is tough for me because I only have one pick left. And I'll tell you what I'm looking at on my list, and I only get to pick one. I'm going to say them all because I know Marty will scoop one. Maybe he won't. But on my list, I've got Harlem Globetrotters. I've got No Fear. I've got Andromeda, but I know no one will pick that game. Boy, that game was so fun in the finals at Pimberg years ago. I have Radical, especially with the Soren Rom. Who doesn't have Stars? TX Sector. Again, it's just the spinner thing, so I already got my spinner game, so it's not going to be TX Sector. Mousing around. If it works and the flippers are strong, good game. But I can only pick one. And I'm going to pick a very underrated game. Pretty inexpensive.
    106:25
    WWF Royal Rumble from Data East. Fun game. Different characters. Good call-outs. Not a showstopper, but I look forward to playing that when I see it in tournaments. Very challenging. I absolutely agree with you. I think that is such a fun game to play. a terrible thing, but a really fun, innovative layout, wide body. It's a fun game. Ryan? Never played it, sorry. Okay. That's where I'm going to be in trouble with the votes, because maybe a lot of people haven't played it, but we'll see. Marty, you get one pick left, and then Ryan will tell us what we forgot. So, was that the remainder of all your picks? That's it. Did I mention some that you thought of? No, no, no. I'm just wondering whether I go through all my leftovers. It's up to you. Yeah. Let's see if you made a mistake. I've got a lot more leftovers. Okay. So, top to bottom, I've got Baywatch. I've got Batman Forever. Flintstones. Elvis. Indiana Jones, the stern version.
    107:28
    I'm just saying they're underrated. Surf and Sparring. No, no, no. He's really missing. Wheel of Fortune. What did you say? Did you say Surf and Sparring? Yep, I did. Oh, I missed that one. That's a good one. Wheel of Fortune No I think it's underrated Pick it then It's currently at 227 I think it's terrible Austin Powers Remember we're now We're talking about the rankings So they're going further down Big Buck Hunter's there NBA by Stern is there And my lowest of them is Lights Camera Action By Gottlieb I feel safe about whatever you pick. Go ahead. Yeah, I think... Hmm, I don't know. Again, it's like, am I going a safe bet or am I going to go something controversy? I think that I'm going to go something that I believe is a lot better than people give it credit. Because that would be like lights, camera, action, but nobody's really played that. But it's actually a lot more fun than people give it credit. So I'm going to say Batman Forever by Sega, currently sitting at 111. And it gets such a bad rap, but it is so much better than people say. Biggest downfall it's got is mechanically it breaks down a lot.
    109:00
    But art-wise, it's fine. Rules are great. Shot satisfaction's there. I think it's very underrated. There you go, Batman Forever. Yeah, it's only the third best Batman game. Go ahead. Yep, good. That's your comeback? Well done. I've only ever played it once, and it was, yeah, I guess I don't really have an opinion on it, because... Why did you only play it once? Was it not fun enough to play a second time? It's the fluoro green ramps just going to haunt my eye. That game is way too green. Okay, so we have our 16 games. We will seed them and put the votes up to you, the listener. Ryan, what games did we miss? What did we, like, I can't believe out of 16 games, you didn't pick these three games. Go. Well, I'll just go through my entire list because I'm not sure how long you guys took to compile your list. I did mine in two minutes. I didn't put too much thought into this. Marty's been working on a spreadsheet for weeks. I can only imagine. Rolling Stone, simply because it was, I don't think it deserves to be in the top 100, but definitely way too high up. 8-Ball. I really enjoy playing 8-Ball. I think it's one of the most fun two-player games you can play. F-14, Tonkat, Sea Witch, No Fear, Genesis. There's something about Gottlieb Games of that era with Genesis, Alien Star, and... TX Sector. All underrated. Very cool sounds. The sound palette from that era was like, it's my era of computer game sounds, like Commodore 64, great stuff. And top two, Radical. It's hard to say Radical is underrated because the price of Radical isn't underrated. That machine commands insane dollars for what it is. It just seems that people that buy it and spend crazy amounts of money on it don't go and rate it. But very innovative layout, I think, very fun to shoot. And the number one miss, I think, is Sars. I know, Marty, you can scoff at that, but I think Sars deserves to probably be in the top 100. and it will eventually get there. It's just on a bit of a time lag. It's a dumb game. No, it's a good game. It's a great game. It's a real... You sweat it out when you're playing it in a competition because so much can go wrong so fast and you have to have some good accuracy. You have to be able to drop catch. You have to be able to... No carryover as well. No bonus holes. No bullshit from that era that other games had. Every tiny step up to the game, it's a new opportunity to blow it up. There was one other game that I did have as an honorable mention that I completely forgot to mention, and I think it's underrated because of the year that it came out. 1996, everyone was ramps and ramps. This is Break Shot by Capcom. I think that is an underrated game. No, it's brutal. Brutal game. I like the concept of the middle with the locking of the ball, so I'll give you that. That's kind of cool, but that upper right flipper is one of the weak parts of the game, the looping that you can do there. It's also one of the most sexist games, but I don't want to say anything rude, but it was cold when they made that game.
    112:12
    Anyway, I think that's enough. We've talked long enough. I've got nothing left to say. I'm just dying to see what our listeners think about this crazy poll, which will be fun, good gifts, lots of activity. If you're not following us on Facebook, well, shame on you. Shame. We're also on Instagram, too. I can't remember what it's called. What is it?
    112:34
    If you just look up Final Round, it'll come up. Or have a look at what your friends are watching, because no doubt they are also following Final Round. But it is Final Round Pinball Podcast. Rolls off the tongue. Buying enough time to be able to look it up on my phone. I was turning to myself. Ryan anything you want to plug got another Jesse J's show coming up no I mean I think you suggested it initially Jeff that when you tie yourself to one week it can be pretty stressful so we haven't tied ourselves to anything so I guess we record whenever we both find time whenever we feel like it so maybe two or three weeks well we look forward to it whenever it comes and we enjoy that it's here on the pinball network Ryan, always a pleasure to talk to you again. Marty, we had fun. Yeah, we did. Don't need to do it again, but thank you.
    113:29
    We'll do it again in two weeks. Have yourself a safe one, and you can catch us. Email us, final round. What is it? Fuck, what is it? Fuck, yes. It's also three in the morning, guys. I'm tired. You old bastard. I'm so fucking tired. Email us, final round, pinball at gmail.com, and we might read your email just like we did Jesse's. Thanks very much for that. It also gives us good content. We're fucking desperate here.
    113:54
    There's no competitions. Hey, we'll find something to do. We have two weeks to do our next one. We can figure it out until then. Right, Marty? Absolutely. So thanks, everybody, for listening. Thank you again, Ryan. We'll speak to you all soon. Ryan, anything else you'd like to say? My little pecker, my little pecker, my little pecker.