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EPC2025 - David Van Es - Pinball News

Pinball News (EPC 2025 Seminars)·video·48m 8s·analyzed·Jun 1, 2025
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.034

TL;DR

Barrels of Fun CEO reveals Dune design process, production capacity, tariff impact, and European market strategy.

Summary

David Van Ness, CEO of Barrels of Fun, discusses the design philosophy and development process behind Dune Pinball, emphasizing immersive 'world under glass' creation through innovative mechanics (motorized worm, thumper bumper, harvester mech), collaboration with world-class sculptors, and integrated lighting systems. He addresses production challenges including tariffs, CE certification delays, market strategy around 1,000-unit production caps, and expansion into European distribution.

Key Claims

  • Dune Pinball launched April 15, 2025, with 1,000-unit production limit at $11,600 retail price

    high confidence · Direct statement by David Van Ness about official launch date and specifications

  • Barrels of Fun employs 30+ full-time employees and produces 10-20 units weekly

    high confidence · Van Ness states 'over 30 full-time employees' and production capacity in 12-month window

  • Labyrinth production capped at 1,004 units (reduced from 1,100) due to QC failures, with only ~50 units remaining in inventory

    high confidence · Van Ness provides specific production numbers and QC explanation

  • Tariffs have spiked to 40% and 154% on separate occasions, impacting inventory in customs

    high confidence · Van Ness describes personal tariff impact: 'Both those days, two completely different months, guess who had stuff in customs? Me.'

  • Dune underwent CE certification testing starting in December (2024) to avoid Labyrinth's European distribution delays

    high confidence · Van Ness confirms proactive CE testing timeline to prevent future waits

  • Australian and European markets account for ~15% of Barrels of Fun sales

    high confidence · Direct statement: 'Australian and the European market probably accounts for about 15% of our sales'

  • Dune Pinball took 18+ months total development time (concept to launch)

    high confidence · Van Ness states initial 3-month concept phase but reality of '18 months to make something like this'

  • Playfield artist 'Johnny Crap' handled entire Dune package (cabinet, playfield, backglass, apron) with deep Dune franchise knowledge

    high confidence · Van Ness praises artist's comprehensive involvement and fan credentials

Notable Quotes

  • “So you will never see, if a post is in there, it's probably an off glance. Like if there's a post there, I'm going to challenge my team. It needs to be a target.”

    David Van Ness@ 6:46 — Design philosophy statement about avoiding posts based on community feedback; shows responsiveness to player preferences and design criticism

  • “This is cinematic pinball experience. He goes, this is like watching the movie, but I'm actually partaking in it.”

    Colin (Kineticists), quoted by David Van Ness@ 20:18 — Key marketing phrase that encapsulates Barrels' design goal for Dune; influenced Van Ness's positioning strategy

  • “I don't think there's a pinball company out there that has games in boxes waiting to be launched. You launch them when you have the opportunity to launch them.”

    David Van Ness@ 24:32 — Industry insight about production and launch timing realities, addressing market expectations about game availability

  • “I'm building a company on 10 years worth of games... I might not sell you a labyrinth. I might not sell you a doom. But I might get you on game three or game four.”

    David Van Ness@ 32:40 — Long-term business strategy statement; acknowledges that individual games may not appeal to every collector but positions company for sustained growth

  • “I'm a collector by heart. I'm not really a manufacturer, and I probably shouldn't be manufacturing, but I truly believe we make great stuff, the games will move.”

    David Van Ness@ 31:28 — Personal background and founding motivation; contrasts collector mindset with manufacturing role, foundational to company's design philosophy

Entities

David Van NesspersonBarrels of FuncompanyDunegameLabyrinthgameJohnny CrappersonStephenpersonPhil Rawlsperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: CE certification process for European market unexpectedly complex and expensive; initially underestimated, now handled proactively for Dune to avoid Labyrinth delays

    high · Van Ness describes CE certification challenges and confirms Dune testing began December 2024

  • ?

    business_signal: Barrels of Fun operational capacity: 30+ employees, 10-20 units/week production, 1,000-unit caps per title, absorbing tariff costs to maintain pricing

    high · Multiple statements about staffing, production rates, and financial strategy

  • ?

    community_signal: Van Ness actively collecting feedback from players and internal team; employees encouraged to contribute design ideas (e.g., Matt's two-page Dune notes, Phil Rawls spinner suggestion)

    high · Multiple examples of incorporating team and customer suggestions into final design

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Barrels of Fun intentionally avoids posts after community backlash against post-heavy designs; emphasizes tactile feedback and audio integration for player immersion

    high · 'So you will never see, if a post is in there, it's probably an off glance... It needs to be a target.'

  • ?

    licensing_signal: Legendary Pictures trusted Barrels of Fun with both Dune Part 1 and Part 2 rights, treating them as premiere licensee; licensing relationship reflects studio confidence in boutique manufacturer

    high · 'we had an opportunity to work with Legendary to do Dune not just part 1 but also part 2'

Transcript

youtube_groq_whisper · $0.144

0:00
So, man, do we have subtitles to go underneath me? Subtitles so everyone can hear me? All right, you ready to rock and roll? It's the accent. Ready? Very good. Well, my name is I'm David Van Ness. I am the chief mischief maker, sometimes a CEO of Barrels of Fun. And I'm actually surprised that there's this many people here, so I really appreciate it. Thank you very much. And I'm here to talk about Barrels of Fun and particularly about creating a play field under glass. So we do things a little bit different at Barrels of with Labyrinth again it was about how we get the player immersed into that universe which I feel like we did a good job so when we were looking around for other licenses we had an opportunity to work with Legendary to do Dune not just part 1 but also part 2 and when we were looking at this license it was one of those things of this is like the Lord of the Rings of science fiction. And we have an opportunity to create moments that, when you watch these films, there's a lot of visual and audio and emotional feelings that work together to make really special moments. So, you know, when we had this opportunity with this billion-dollar franchise, with Academy Award-winning music and score, it was one of these opportunities. How can I not do this game? So they trusted us to create this world, and that's where it started.
1:57
So it's really easy, as you can see on the screen. That was the idea, and it only took three months to do, and that was it. The reality is it takes longer than 18 months to make something like this. And it comes down to what toys are we going to create? So we start coming up with ideas.
2:20
And one of the ideas is we have to have a thumper in it. So how are we going to do that? Well, if you were in this universe, what is something you want to do? You would want to use one of those thumpers. Okay, so how do we put that on the play field? There were many different little ideas, but then we've got a pop bumper. So why don't we have a thumper bumper? So, you know, and it's like we had many little different mechanical ideas or putting a little motors inside of it to make it go up and down and it was like well but a pop bumper goes up and down why can't we just extend that through our sculpt to create that thumper and that was just basically here's the concept here's a 3d model here is the rendering and then it gets put into the game it's just what moments do you remember from the film riding the worm, the harvest of battles, the thumper, you know, these are all moments that you want to experience, that you enjoyed from the movie. Now, how do we make that a playable experience? So, idea, there's the thumper. The worm. So, you know, when we were working on this, it's like, well, we have to have the worm eat the ball. We also have to have the worm ride it. So, how are we going to do that? So, what you see on the screen right now was one of the ideas of Having you know and more of a traditional not really a mech you using a drop tiger as the target and you shoot that Like hitting the thumper. This is actually before we came up with a thumper bumper

  • “It hurts and there's not a lot of margin in pinball, I'll be frank with you all. But at the same time, I'm not building a company on one game.”

    David Van Ness@ 32:22 — Candid assessment of tariff impact and thin industry margins; justifies absorbing tariff costs for long-term positioning

  • “When I played it for the first time with the artwork, with the light show, and I got to ride that worm for the first time, I mean, me just talking about it now gave me goosebumps.”

    David Van Ness@ 20:34 — Emotional endorsement of game's immersive experience; demonstrates designer passion for final product

    • Colin
    person
    Stefanperson
    Weta Workshopcompany
    Fast Pinballcompany
    Legendary Picturescompany
    Zen Studioscompany
    EPC 2025event
    Texas Pinball Festivalevent
    Metallica LEproduct
    $

    market_signal: Australian and European markets account for ~15% of Barrels of Fun sales; European market characterized by high collector passion and willingness to pay premium prices ($20k+)

    high · Van Ness states '15%' and describes European appetite for pinball and Australian pricing

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Stephen (3D sculptor from Weta Workshop) partnered on Dune to create high-fidelity thematic sculpts; relationship built through personal connections in collector community

    high · Van Ness describes working with Stephen at Weta and personal relationship formation

  • $

    market_signal: Tariff spikes (40%, 154%) significantly impact pinball manufacturing margins; Barrels absorbing costs rather than passing to consumers

    high · Van Ness detailed tariff impact and decision to 'eat it' despite thin margins

  • ?

    announcement: Dune Pinball officially launched April 15, 2025, with 1,000-unit production cap and $11,600 retail price

    high · Van Ness provides specific launch date, production numbers, and pricing

  • ?

    product_strategy: Horizon lighting system added to Dune as direct response to Labyrinth feedback about dark playfield; integrated into cabinet design to avoid disassembly

    high · 'There were many things when we made Labyrinth, a lot of our customers were asking... we were now able to include into this game'

  • ?

    product_concern: Labyrinth production reduced from 1,100 to 1,004 units due to QC failures on incoming parts; reflects Barrels' quality-first approach despite production impact

    high · 'the quality of a lot of our parts that came in just did not pass QC'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Colin (Kineticists) converted from non-buyer to must-have customer after Dune media day; emotional response to 'cinematic pinball experience' positioning influenced marketing strategy

    high · 'he couldn't put a word to what he was experiencing... I have to sell a game to get this game'

    • 3:52
    How would that be satisfying for the player so traditional skull with the ball that can go around behind it Shoot the drop target. That would be a thumper and goes into it Well It's good
    4:09
    So, and again, these are just like when we work as a team, we challenge each other and we don't care if it's a good idea or a bad idea. We can like, we'll have employees off the line come in with ideas. We have, you know, people can write down, I get notes all the time. I had a Matt, he's our second employee, come into my office last week with two papers full of writings and I'm like what's this well I just was watching this film and like I had all these ideas for this this license and they were really really good I can't promise you I'm gonna get that license but I guarantee you I have that in a folder on the side because there was some really genuine good ideas in there again I want people to feel safe obviously I'm not gonna execute them all but you should feel fine to put out stuff because trust me I'm not a mechanical engineer or electrical engineer. I'm a film and TV post-production guy. Now I'm making pinball machines. That ain't traditional. Right?
    5:15
    But you just have to surround yourself with great people to make great stuff. And take some risks. So, but again, this is just showing you the first concepts. And they're like, well, we need to figure out how we can make it move. And a lot of my inspiration comes from games that we've played in the past. I'm a collector just like you guys. So I look at the games that I love. It's like, how can we, like, what did that emotion create in me?
    5:45
    Now, how can we turn that into something different? But just like in filmmaking, my background is every story that we're told, it's just how you tell that story again. How do you make it different?
    5:58
    And again, just being open to ideas. And that's not always a good idea because again, there's a fine line of how much we've got to develop in a certain amount of time. But again, I try not to limit a lot of our team in the beginning. And a good idea is that the warm takes the ball, but after that, when the warm comes up, it can touch the warm and have simply wonderful . Well, a lot of the things I learned over my tenure in pinball for nine years working for other companies is I've seen you all as a community be quite vicious to pinball design. So you start learning really quickly. That's why you see virtually no posts in our game because I've seen how people feel about posts. So you will never see, if a post is in there, it's probably an off glance. Like if there's a post there, I'm going to challenge my team. It needs to be a target. Like there's got to be some tactile feel to it Because, is it fun to hit something and you get no reaction from it? No. But when you hear that audio, bad or good, still gives you that connection to it. And it's that combination of adding the music and the feedback to it to give you a sense of that world. So again, I like the original idea, but we had to have it ride. So that's when I went to my engineers, well, we could put the ball on top, we can do stuff. So first concept, the 3D rendering that we have, and this is actually the one on the right is the actual mold itself. Again, we could have turned that into a can, but that's actually a rotomodal part, and so it's actually got texture and everything else. Moving on to the next one. The harvester. Now, there's nothing more cool when they are fighting that harvester, going underneath it. So this mech is, we have to have the harvester. It's molded into three in multiple different parts. They get put together. We had to have the inside of it, the front of it, actually collapses in on itself. So when you explode it, it actually falls in. But in the movie, they go underneath it all the time. So the whole point is that we have that worm there and you've got a jump ramp. And that jump ramp will send the ball actually underneath the harvest just like in the movie. But then I started thinking, this is a great opportunity where we can have something very similar to Middle Evil Madness. You know, that castle, like, you bash it and you keep hitting it and hitting it. So this was an opportunity that I could recreate something I dearly love with the harvester. You know, the first harvester is pretty easy. Actually, it's not easy anymore because we have the rotating Omnicopter that goes around. Again, creating that moment from the film with the helicopter, like, if you can keep bashing the harvester as long as you want, you can do it 40 times, it will finally destroy it. But if you can take out the chopper and the harkening around it, now it's just one kill shot directly to the harvester. So there's many different strategies of how you can tackle it. So if you're a kid and you just want to keep hitting it, you go for it. But if you're a more experienced player and you actually follow the flashing lights, now you get more scores and you can build up a lot more. But again, taking a moment from the film, how do we make that experience your own?
    9:14
    Also, having it hide a bunch of stuff. So this is the combination of all those things put together. So you can see on the left the harvester with the hole that you shoot around it. Obviously my photographer did a good job getting the worm in the front of it.
    9:26
    Then you've got the thumper up on the sand dune and obviously the worm fully up to the rail. Another idea is the fork mech. So in the movie itself there's a lot of personal fighting between Paul and his enemy and his training with Goonie. So I really wanted an area where the ball could get trapped and it can be bashed. We had a lot of success with Labyrinth with putting a spinner behind it. So we kind of took that concept, well, what if we space that out, put a magnet in the middle so when the ball gets caught in there, you hit the ball and it will be like the shield that they have on their people. So that whole mech, the mosh pit area in there was a representation of the shield that they have.
    10:23
    Well, that was like, so the fork was there on purpose, but the spinner behind it was purely a Phil Rawls guy. He came in at the very last minute of production, like before we started production, and he goes, man, this game is missing something. I said, why? He goes, it needs a spinner. And he goes, and it was just a flippant remark. I was like, well, I went over to the prototype shelf, and like, here's a spinner, put it on the play flip. And he goes, but David, this is production luck. I'm like, this is why we have three.
    10:54
    But it was one of those things of allowing him, it wasn't too much to add to it, but it made it more exciting again. So again, from that, we wanted to represent the shield. We wanted the area to catch the ball, and that was the innovation behind the locking mech on doing here.
    11:14
    And on the right, we had this whole area that had nothing in it. And all of a sudden, someone was playing Radical, and they're like, that can fit in there, absolutely. And we needed some difficult shot, but it's rewarding when you hit it, right? So the idea behind this was we didn't have representation of the Fredman coming out of the sand attacking. So we had different little ideas, but we really wanted an idea where you could hide one of your Fremen soldiers and when you needed them to come you would Basically hit the ball up in there and bring them out So the whole idea that the Fideiken stand trap is for you to use later on the mode if you want to add more Soldiers to it you hide a ball in there you hit it multiple times and then when it set to go You wait till you get to a mode that you need extra balls on You hit that they come out and they help you finish out that mode
    12:09
    So one thing we do take a lot of pride in is our sculpts. I like flat plastics just as much as you all, but if I'm building a world, it needs to be real. And so we work with a 3D artist. His name's Stephen down at New Zealand. He actually works for Weta. If you don't know who Weta is, Weta did all of the Lord of the Rings films with Peter Jackson. They make a lot of sideshow sculpts and so forth like that. And again, these are friends I've met along the way, and it's like I need to create a world under glass. And of course, they are fans of these movies just as much as we are, so they are going to give me amazing work. So for example, we have to have a paint box. That's a really important part of the film franchise.
    12:59
    So that's just an example of all the modding, and there it is in the real world. And then you have the siege.
    13:09
    Like... My bad. Guys, I've got to chuckle this, because this was kind of like my whitewater situation here. It's just like, I love whitewater. So it was one of those things, we're going to have a siege. If I'm going to have a siege, it has to be big. So basically that's what happens. But underneath that, there's a lift ramp, a ramp, a diverter. So you can shoot the ball from your right orbit. That will go all the way around. It has a jump ramp, but it also feeds the inner wire form in, including the side ramp does the exact same thing. So again, you know, we want to give moments like in the movie, the Fremen would disappear into the sand, into the mountains, and they'll come back and attack. So the whole idea, the whole area is that's their home. And in fact, we have a mode later on where one of the Harkonnen ships will come down digitally on that display and will blow that thing up. So we're going to have light shows and stuff like that. Again, trying to add the digital world into the physical world. Same with the Harvester. Another question.
    14:09
    The second display on Lavimath, the two displays show something different to the action of the people. But here we have a prototype, maybe that's it, of the first version. The scenery. So a lot of that was, and we'll probably go back, well, not probably, we will go back and revisit Labyrinth and add more stuff to it. We want it to be more dynamic. And I think what you see there with the chopper and stuff like that we have in the Omnicopter, we want you to physically see the ball interact with things back there. So like when you blow up the harpers, you see the flames come out. the side. Like we want that to be a continuing expansion of the universe, but also allow the player to see what they need to be doing. Move on to more sculpts. Again, beautiful work by our artist. Had to have a traveling sand worm. Can you come back to the Arrakis texture because I wanted to share the first This is streaming live. They should be watching me right now. There's millions of people watching me right now. I'm joking. Several people. There we go. Thank you for the several people. I appreciate it. But again, it has to, like, we really see pinball as playable art. Like, this should be something that should be beautiful in the light when it's not turned on, but it should be beautiful to play as well. And that's basically, like, again, we don't try to take any shortcuts. We have to stay within a budget, don't get me wrong, and my accountant will kill me all the time. But I really believe the better we get at this, the more we fine-tune it, the process will get better and better for us.
    16:24
    Artwork, a.k.a. Johnny Crap, absolutely nailed this playfield and cabinet package. So on Labyrinth, he was responsible just for the playfield, the side blades and the two back glasses and the apron. This time he did the whole package from start to finish. I didn't realize he was a massive Dune fan, not just of the movies, but also the books and the old movie. He is a diehard Dune fan. as you can see he just crushed it on all levels including the cabinet again you can see on the right is just him doing these pencil drawings and on the left you can see the final part but if you notice on the cabinet we have day and night this whole game is meant to be you as a freman during the day taking harvesters and at night you're watching paul become who he needs to be so for you to transverse through the game you use the spinners in all three spots to basically speed up time so if you want to play the prophecies then you want to do that at nighttime and if you want to go and beat the harvesters you go to the daytime cycles for that yes yeah yeah one one to rule them all so what you see here is the evergloss cabinet decals so that's a pet G reverse printed with metallic ink and of course he's amazing back glass like like I knew this was beautiful but when I got the first test sample of this in like it just blew me away like absolutely gorgeous his artwork for the apron yep and now let's talk about I'm just talking about the day-to-night cycles again like that the Horizon Light System.
    18:19
    There were many things when we made Labyrinth, a lot of our customers were asking, can I get a Shaker motor? Can we buy Invisiglass? Like they wanted a lot of upgrades. And these are things that for a small company, we couldn't get it inside the bomb for the game. But because of Labyrinth being extremely successful, we had the opportunity to be able to have better buying power. So all these things that people were asking for, we were now able to include into this game. So that becomes the Horizon lighting system. And again, if you watch the movies, lighting and color means a lot in that world. So we had an opportunity. Again, people were complaining in Labyrinth. It was a very dark game. This was a solution that we found. I didn't want to put lights that just went over the top. It had to be built into the cabinet. I don't want you to have to have to pull the lights off to take the play field out. It all should be built into the cabinet itself.
    19:16
    And that's the Horizon Lighting. In fact, Stefan, we should have everyone here turn all the lights off and just play their game. It would be amazing. Just saying. I can tell you all the news.
    19:31
    When you all left, I switched the game on at 2 o'clock in the morning. Well, and what is interesting is we had a media day and we had people come and play it. And there was one person, Colin from the Kineticists, and he couldn't put a word to what he was experiencing. He obviously had seen the films. He was a big fan of them. And on the media day, he came up to me and he was like, I don't know what this is about this game. It's like, I was not interested in buying another game, but now I have to sell a game to get this game. And I'm like, well, I appreciate that. He goes, but there's something about this game that I don't know what it is. And 30 minutes later, he comes back and goes, this is cinematic pinball experience. He goes, this is like watching the movie, but I'm actually partaking in it. And when I heard that, I was like, okay, I've got my next marketing coin phrase. This is perfect. This is just magnificent. But I truly believe, like, when I played it for the first time with the artwork, with the light show, and I got to ride that worm for the first time, I mean, me just talking about it now gave me goosebumps. It is, with the shaker motor and everything coming together, it really is a moment. And those are the things that we strive for, even more so than Lava.
    20:52
    Stuff that is coming soon. Obviously, there's more modes. There's going to be interactive, more LCD content. We're going to have additional film call-outs. We're going to have more custom callouts we had just recorded last week. It will be turning up in the game. In fact, there may be a few beta pieces in the game right now. A lot more stuff. We're going to have an interactive topper that will be coming out soon. We've had all our accessories kind of got put on hold a little bit due to the economic environment we have right now, but they are coming. And right now you can see the crystal shooter rod knife, the sword. So that is going to be coming in very soon. we have Harakin slingshots. They're actually 3D moulded sculpts that go over the slingshots. We actually go into... So if you buy the shooter rod, you will also get the Harakin slingshots on top of that. So you're not just buying a shooter rod, you're actually getting a whole set for your playfield.
    21:49
    And a few other little tricks coming down the line. So now I'm in territory of just beauty shots for you guys. Do you guys have any questions for me?
    22:03
    Yes, I do. What's his name? From the Netherlands? So my father is. So my father, yeah, he grew up in Holland until he was 12 years old. And then just after the war, things weren't looking that great. So they decided to jump on a boat and see an opportunity somewhere else and found themselves in Australia. That's where I grew up. So the game launched on April 15th. It's limited up to 1,000 units and it's retailing for 11.6 and it is actually shipping right now. And I see a question over there. . We haven't actively explored that but we're definitely not close to it. So we have a high level coding with Python and Godot that we use and then we also have a lower level C plus that we use on the lower side for the switches and stuff like that. So we work closely with Fast Pinball on this game. But yeah, we have the low level and the high level. Most of the fun stuff is all in the Python side. Any other questions? No. So we had this marked to be launched with Legendary pretty much back in January. The timing was very unfortunate for everyone involved. But at the same time, when you are ramping up a game, you have a time and a budget set for that. And I can't control what other companies do. All I can do is what we do best And there were things that were out of our control So it was launched when it was meant to be launched and there were just outside forces that we couldn control and I not going to let that dictate what we can do Now, if something drastically or horrible happened, of course, but we had it set in a long time and we just stuck to that schedule. A lot of people think pinball, you know, pinball companies have pinball machines ready to drop at a hat. I can tell you right now, I don't think there's a pinball company out there that has games in boxes waiting to be launched. You launch them when you have the opportunity to launch them.
    24:44
    So we have currently over 30 full-time employees. up to a thousand games per title. Now, that doesn't mean we won't explore different games with different models and different structure.
    25:01
    What we try to do is if we sell out day one, to be frank with you guys, I mean, that would be awesome, but that means we severely underestimated the market.
    25:11
    Ideally, what I want to happen is set a number that I can get games out into the wild to you guys to play, so you can experience. I don't want you guys to feel forced to have to buy a game that you're going to miss out. So I want to make sure there is enough games. I mean, the true nature of it, you want to make one less than the demand is, right? But to guess that number, you know, I wouldn't be here. I'd be on a yacht somewhere if I could do that. The reality is that's not true. So I set a number that's comfortable for our company to manufacture in a 12-month window, and we just see how the market goes. If we do a good job, we'll get rewarded and we'll sell them all out. Labyrinth, for example, we're only making 1,004 of those. Originally it was meant to be 1,100, but the quality of a lot of our parts that came in just did not pass QC. So that's why we're only making 1,004 of them, which there's only 50 of those games left now. So we're very close of having that game completely sold out. But trust me, selling out doesn't mean we've done good or bad. it's just a mark of what we're comfortable with manufacturing in a certain amount of time and for example if a game sales slow down and the next games ready to go we're gonna switch to the next game because what's more important to me is making a new product a new content to entertain you guys and And we'll just let that game be what it's going to do.
    26:39
    Yes. You're welcome. Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so European market is a very different beast when it comes to manufacturing. There are certain regulations that we have to meet, and you can self-certify to do that. It's called CE certification, if you guys are not familiar with that.
    27:25
    We thought it was going to be pretty straightforward, so we figured CE certification was an afterthought. the reality is when I started to look into it as an afterthought laws were changing so everything I was learning was kind of going out the window but I wanted to do it correctly I wanted to do the right test we could do a lot of self-certification but in reality I don't want to do that I want to take it to a third-party company have them test it make sure it is safe to be sold in Europe. And yes, it is very expensive. But it was one of those things. I did not want to ship something that I didn't have faith in. That's not fair to you guys. And it's definitely not fair for Stefan because he's investing in me as well. So that process took way longer than we anticipated. The good news about Dune, and I promised him I would not let that happen ever again, is Dune was in testing for CE back in December. So we're already past that hurdle. So literally you just need to buy, you know, you all need to buy a game so I can fill a container up and send it over to Stefan. But right now it's just a matter of how many games we can produce for him and put him in a container. So there will not be lengthy waits anymore. I can't control the world, but at least I've put things in place that there will not be the long wait on Labyrinth. And on Labyrinth that was not planned and I will never let that happen again.
    28:59
    100%. Again. Actually, I'm going to add to that. and when I got invited to come over to the DPO for Stefan, it was very eye-opening to see the European dedication to pinball collecting. It really reminded me of back in the early 2000s where I couldn't afford a $2,000 game. So I would go out and find the most trashed, burnt-out pinball machine I could, which my wife would let me buy, fix it up, and then flip it and sell it, and then I'll buy a newer one. And I kept doing that to the point I could buy, at the time, a new Metallica LE in box, right? Because I'm sure that's how all you guys have done it. You take one game, you fix it up, you sell it off, and then you can get the next one and the next one. The problem is we fall in love with a couple of them and they stay and then you get another one and that goes from 2 to 5 to 20 to 50. You know, it happens. But the American market is very different to the European market. You guys are very much tinkerers. You guys love it as art. And so do the American market, but it's a very different mindset.
    30:33
    And when I saw that at DPO, it really helped me realize that I need to get games in your hands because I recognize your love for the game, but also the art side of it, you know, and the ability to connect with that. And that's when I told Stefan, I was like, dude, we need to get more games over here. And that's, again, why I'm here today. That's why I went to DPO. I don't know if I'm going to DPO this year or not. I think there might be a scheduled conflict with Thanksgiving. But I just want you guys to know, I know where you all come from because I was there. Like, I had to sell two Indiana Jones I restored to pay for my kids' births. That game's like, I've got a third one that I have never restored because I'm terrified I'm going to have another kid. But again, I understand what it means to find a game, fix it up. This is the whole reason why Barrels exists, because I'm a collector by heart. I'm not really a manufacturer, and I probably shouldn't be manufacturing, but I truly believe we make great stuff, the games will move. Alright, question. On the spot. Since we already mentioned shipping. Yes. You don't have to do that. Let me go. You're producing in America, right? Yes. You are a factor in my whole playing board. 100%. How much does it impact you? It hurts a lot. I mean, to be blunt with you, there were two moments that tariffs were bought in for one day that they went to 40% and 154%. Both those days, two completely different months, guess who had stuff in customs? Me. But I'm not going to pass it on to you guys. That's not fair. Yeah, it hurts and there's not a lot of margin in pinball, I'll be frank with you all. But at the same time, I'm not building a company on one game. I'm building a company on 10 years worth of games. And what I need to tell you guys, I'm not going anywhere.
    32:40
    And you'll see that. I might not sell you a labyrinth. I might not sell you a doom. But I might get you on game three or game four. But once you start seeing the quality we're putting into our games that we truly believe in, I think you'll become a fan.
    32:55
    And then we'll become a bigger family. Did that answer your question? No, not really. No, we're just eating it. At this point I don't want to But we have enough margin that we can eat the tariffs at this point. But the whole point is these first games might cost us more, but hopefully by the end it will level out. That's literally what it comes down to.
    33:19
    No. Why should you wait? It's not my fault that they're changing things on me. If I have the power to get you games, that's what I'm doing 100%. And if I can't, I will tell you. There's no hiding behind anything. I'll be straight up and that will probably get me in trouble, but I'll tell you exactly what's going on
    33:49
    Oh, yeah, I'm really curious Who's the first one come on what's on your heart right now European IP Which one
    34:04
    That's good. Yeah, I'd love to hear what you guys think would work. No, the US market is the biggest market there is. However, the appetite for titles that you guys are willing to take risks on, the same with Australia,
    34:49
    there's a much more ferocious appetite for pinball. You all pay way more for pinball than you all should. And that goes for Australians, they're even worse. They're paying like $20,000 for a game, which is insane. so you know again i'm australian so i really feel when i recognize my own i want to give like my original goal was to launch games day one in every country we're just not big enough and we don't have enough resources to be able to do that yet but that's the whole reason why we got the ce testing early so we can get you stuff there's also a trust level there's a lot of distributors out there that want to be famous, pinball famous, and they want to leak stuff.
    35:31
    And it's really hard. It's like you're learning to trust. It's like dating. Stefan is one of those people. He saw the game back at TPF, before TPF. He's earned his wings right now.
    35:43
    The sooner I can get games to him and people in Australia, the better it's going to be for everyone else.
    35:50
    So, to sum it all up, I would say the Australian and the European market probably accounts for about 15% of our sales. 15 yeah Both together yeah Yes sir I curious about the way that you and some of your other
    36:49
    So, silly? So, at the end of the day, I'm going to die one day. All right? I don't want to spend the rest of my life building one game forever. And in all reality, I'm not.
    37:05
    All the other companies are kind of more, they're amusement companies. They're built to just generate product.
    37:12
    We approach this, and I put Spooky in the same category, we're a collectible company. we build things that people hopefully want and there's only so much time i want to spend making one product there's like i mean in all reality i just got back from the licensing show if i took all the opportunities that i had i'm going to be making games i've got games till 2035 right but i want to have fun doing this and honestly having 30 employees it's not easy and I don't want to do the same thing over and over again so the more games I can release the more fun I'm having because this is all not about working I've worked for 25 plus years in film and tv and pinball it's not always fun and I've gotten to the point in my life I want to make cool stuff with cool people and how do I do that and that's by creating cool products that we can get out in a reasonable amount of time because if I was going to make $2,000, I mean, that's good for my line, but it's kind of boring once the machine is running.
    38:23
    Well, they can go and find one on the second-hand market, you know? No, but I've got game three and four that they can choose from now too.
    38:34
    Yeah? Well, now hopefully they'll find one on the second-hand market and they can trade with. That's the collector side of me. The hunt for old games and new games is what I enjoy.
    38:46
    So again, we have so many exciting games coming down the path and I'm not trying to sell them. I can't wait for you to experience. Just like I love standing there. I'm sorry for you guys playing Dune if I'm there because I get really excited seeing you play it because I love seeing you guys playing it. And that's no different than I'm watching you playing Labyrinth or it will be game three or four. That's what I live for, seeing you guys play this stuff. And it's awesome when you buy it too. Trust me, that makes my wife happy and everything else as well. And I get to keep my employees happy, you know. But at the end of the day, I just want to entertain you all.
    39:23
    And this is just one way of doing it. Any other questions? Why not? There are not many white bodies anymore. Yeah, well, white bodies don't really cost more to make in all reality. No. Again, you're talking about that much more space on either side. The question is, does the license and the story we're telling justify it? There's no point of just doing it for the sake of doing it. But what extra elements can we have fun with to get you guys to enjoy it? That's what's important to us. Story is first. How long was the time from the idea of the license to the robot? So yeah, Dune started happening before even Labyrinth was out. I basically, I've always been shopping for licenses. That's what I did in my past. So when I was talking Legendary, I was talking about other IPs, but I gave them a presentation of what Labyrinth was going to be. And when they saw that, they saw someone that really cared about storytelling and saw an opportunity and they were like, we want you to do that. So realistically, Dune was in development longer than 18 months, but you got to remember, we started the company with nothing. So February, we had the factory. By October, we had games on the line ready to go.
    41:05
    And then 18 months after that, we had this game come out. 20 months after this. So it's basically 18 months, but the ideas in that were percolating way before that. Just like game three and four and even five, they're all happening, but there's a crunch time when you have all these ideas, the blue sky, everything's floating around, and then it starts getting funneling down into a very precise engineering. It goes into CAD and SOLIDWORKS and then that all comes together really quickly. Like Phil, our rules guy on Labyrinth, he goes, we're talking on Zoom calls and stuff and then I turn up and there it is. And he goes, I don't know how you did it. And then with Dune, he comes down, he's been talking about it, he shoots it, and it's like, where did this game come from? It feels like it happens overnight, but he's a remote worker. you know but every day we're in there just working away a little bit at a time four or five different play fields watch the test if you want to see the development of the uh dune watch the tested video there's also a factory tour behind the scenes that shows you all the different prototypes it even shows something that shouldn't have been in there but again i don't get editorial choice with them they're friends of ours they they tell the story they want to tell um but yeah that's just How it is? It's just... Sorry?
    42:32
    We're working on the third and the fourth. And then technically fifth and sixth are in blue sky development.
    42:43
    But yeah, they are there. Can you show me some things? Let me back up. It's going to be a cinematic pinball experience. That's what it's going to be. Can you imagine if you were to have some art designers in the future in your house or maybe... Never say no. ...some ideas for the future or is it just all your babies? So people would, I listen to everything and everyone and I probably shouldn't. It takes away my family time a lot. But at the end of the day, for example, I go to the licensing show. There are things that I'm particularly looking for. But I have people reaching out to me from very non-practical ideas. But some of those come up with the best ideas. So I'm always open to anything. Like, yeah, I'm working on some weird stuff. but at the same time it's entertaining. So for example, when you're working on a project, it's never easy. So sometimes you do a project you know is going to be probably pretty successful, but it's a struggle. There's always these challenges. And then you get IPs or licenses that I just want to be part of the process. And those are the projects I live for. How can we do this? How can we make this different? So it's just a balancing act of listening to ideas if they're viable. is potentially viable and how it will work. So yes, we're open to all that type of stuff.
    44:30
    It's a two-year bet. It's like, is this going to be relevant in two years? First of all, you look at if it's nostalgic. Is there a core fandom for it, right? Does it fit the pinball demographic? Okay, if it fits that, very good. But if I just make games just for the pinballers, guess what? I mean, I hate to say it, we're all getting old, we're all going to die off, and our pinball machines are going to be sold off. So the second criteria I look at pinball licenses at licenses is how do I grow the market? What licenses can I skew maybe in a different area to get more people involved? Labyrinth is a really good example. 20% of our sales went to brand new people. Never had a pinball machine. How do I know that? Because I kept getting calls like, why is this not on legs?
    45:20
    I had to show them how to do legs. And like, it was mind-blowing to me. But at the same time, it made me really excited because now we've touched a whole new person that has one pinball machine. And what happens when you have one pinball machine? You get two and then three. So the whole point is it's an addictive collector, right? So when I'm looking at IPs is what feeds the core fandom, but how can I expand it? And that's what we use. And then it's just a guessing. I mean, Dune, part one and part two, is a billion-dollar franchise. It has a TV series. It has another two movies in the works. That's not going away. So the demand for this product is probably going to go higher as we get older, not including the people that love the books, not including people who love the movie. You know, there's a whole range of people that we're getting exposed to that have never seen pinball before.
    46:16
    Did that answer your question? Okay, good deal. And have we run out? Nope. Six weeks, six to seven weeks.
    46:27
    Yep, yep, yep. We can air freight it for $1,200, right? So yeah, six weeks, six to seven weeks depending on customs. I'll listen ten minutes. See I talk way too long. So barrel ball is our version of stall ball. Essentially everyone, you know, go out there, get in a line, you get one, you get a choice So shooting white shots hit that white shot move out of the way and let the next person play If you hit the red shot You're out and we do that until we get down to one person and we do have giveaways right down to the last person So if I understand we're doing two barrel balls tonight three
    47:18
    We got that many people signed up already All right Jeff dollars outside so sign up and play a barrel ball and it gets chaotic, and it's much better when you have a drink in your hand.
    47:35
    Right now it's just in Labyrinth. We're working on some unique things that we may make Barrelball unique to Dune that may involve a paint box, but we'll see how that goes.
    47:48
    All right, is that it? Is that it? Well, let's get everyone signed up for Barabar. Thank you.