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Episode 136 - Diablo Interviews

Eclectic Gamers Podcast·podcast_episode·1h 0m·analyzed·Mar 8, 2021
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.028

TL;DR

Retrospective on Deep Root's 2018 claims vs current unfulfilled promises on manufacturing and innovation.

Summary

Tony and Dennis from Eclectic Gamers Podcast discuss the Pinball Hall of Fame's successful fundraising (reaching $200k goal with an anonymous $79k donation) and conduct a retrospective analysis of a February 2018 Deep Root Pinball interview with Robert Mueller, comparing past claims about innovation, manufacturing processes, and development timelines against current reality. The discussion reveals Deep Root's unfulfilled promises regarding their 'quad assembly' manufacturing process, agile production capabilities, and timeline commitments, with hosts skeptical about whether the company ever properly prepared manufacturing infrastructure.

Key Claims

  • An anonymous donor contributed $79,000 to close out the Pinball Hall of Fame's $200k GoFundMe goal

    high confidence · Dennis states: 'an anonymous, generous donor looked at the GoFundMe total and went ahead and just, I guess, cut a check for $79,000, which would close out the GoFundMe'

  • Deep Root expected to have more innovation than all other pinball manufacturers combined

    high confidence · Dennis cites Robert Mueller's claim from the 2018 interview: 'Robert noted how they at Deep Root expected to have more innovation than all the other pinball manufacturers combined'

  • Deep Root's quad assembly manufacturing would allow output from one unit per day to 100 units per day

    high confidence · Dennis describes Mueller's claim: 'the output could be like one unit a day to 100 units a day. But he didn't commit to specific numbers'

  • Deep Root's quad assembly required only 25,000 square feet versus traditional assembly's 100,000 square feet

    medium confidence · Dennis states: 'the notion that they would be able to build at the same level of output as a stern pinball in a much smaller space...25,000 square feet would be sufficient for quad assembly versus what traditional assembly line would need 100,000 square feet'

  • Deep Root had 25 to 30 patents in process as of the 2018 interview

    high confidence · Dennis: 'During that interview in 2018, he noted that they had 25 to 30 patents in process at the time'

  • Deep Root took preorder money before obtaining UL certification

    high confidence · Tony criticizes: 'why did you take money before you filed for the UL certification?...they took preorder money before they got their UL certification because they still don't have their UL certification'

  • Pinball Hall of Fame was more likely to succeed with fundraising than Replay Foundation's Penberg

    medium confidence · Dennis: 'Replay Foundation and Pinberg, more popular with hardcore pinheads than the Pinball Hall of Fame. Oh, I think so'

Notable Quotes

  • “an anonymous, generous donor looked at the GoFundMe total and went ahead and just, I guess, cut a check for $79,000, which would close out the GoFundMe”

    Dennis @ early in pinball section — Describes the Pinball Hall of Fame's successful funding through major donation

  • “Deep Root, though, did have another announcement at the end of the month, end of February, that the games are not – there was a hope to get games out, I think, mid-March. But that's not happening, obviously.”

    Dennis @ pinball section — Illustrates Deep Root's consistent failure to meet production timelines

  • “I think that was, that was over, that's overly ambitious.”

    Tony @ during innovation discussion — Directly refutes Deep Root's claim about having more innovation than all competitors combined

  • “why did you take money before you filed for the UL certification?...they took preorder money before they got their UL certification because they still don't have their UL certification”

    Tony @ manufacturing discussion — Critical assessment of Deep Root's preparation and business practices

  • “the thing that I have people write to me, and I think you're in on some of those messages that we get where the biggest thing people don't understand is that it doesn't seem like Deep Root has ever made any serious attempt ahead of time to get their manufacturing ducks in a row. It's always been everything else.”

    Tony @ manufacturing section — Summarizes recurring community concern about Deep Root's lack of manufacturing preparation

  • “it just felt like buzzword soup to me. It felt like it back then. It feels like it now”

    Tony @ discussing quad assembly — Dismisses Deep Root's manufacturing process claims as marketing language without substance

  • “I don't see it. I don't see how it's – yeah. I don't see how it's possible.”

    Dennis @ quad assembly discussion — Expresses skepticism about Deep Root's efficiency claims

Entities

Deep Root PinballcompanyPinball Hall of FameorganizationReplay FoundationorganizationRobert MuellerpersonTonypersonDennis NordmanpersonStern PinballcompanySpooky Pinballcompany

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Deep Root accepted preorder payments before securing UL certification, indicating poor manufacturing preparation

    high · Tony: 'why did you take money before you filed for the UL certification?...they still don't have their UL certification'

  • ?

    business_signal: Replay Foundation/Penberg closure was avoidable; hosts believe targeted fundraising campaign could have succeeded similar to Pinball Hall of Fame

    medium · Dennis: 'Replay Foundation and Pinberg, more popular with hardcore pinheads than the Pinball Hall of Fame...I think there would have been even more people going into it'

  • ?

    business_signal: Anonymous $79,000 donation enabled Pinball Hall of Fame to reach $200k fundraising goal after small donations fell short

    high · Dennis confirmed donation brought campaign to goal despite GoFundMe showing lower totals

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Deep Root's failure to meet commitments has created persistent community concern about manufacturing preparation and business credibility

    high · Tony: 'the biggest thing people don't understand is that it doesn't seem like Deep Root has ever made any serious attempt ahead of time to get their manufacturing ducks in a row'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Deep Root's quad assembly manufacturing claims appear to be unsubstantiated marketing (buzzword soup) with no demonstrated ability to deliver promised agility or efficiency

    high · Tony: 'the whole quad assembly thing just felt like buzzword soup to me. It felt like it back then. It feels like it now'; Dennis: 'I don't see how it's possible'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.181

0:00
Welcome to the Eclectic Gamers Podcast. Today is Sunday, March 7th. This is episode 136. I am Tony. And I am Dennis. And, oh, we got stuff to talk about. We do. My notes are, well, a little bit.
0:33
I'm trying to play it up a little bit. I mean, look, we got like four topics in the video game section. We got a couple topics in the pinball section. Normally, here's what's huge, is normally just in my normal browsing, I come across a bunch of topics.
0:51
And I pick and choose which ones. and this time around, no. No, there wasn't a whole lot of stuff that really piqued my interest the last two weeks. I was kind of hunting for stuff. I'm like, man, what happened these last two weeks? Well, and I have to say, I get in a similar boat. I mean, I see things that are announced on the forums and such in pinball every single week, but a lot of it I just don't care about. And you know, we basically never talk about code updates, for example. There have been people talking about some issues with the spinner mech on Led Zeppelin. It only impacts the premium and LE models. I don't know anyone who owns that game. It's like, so why talk about it? It's like, if you care about that, then you'll see it in one of the club threads for that game. Why would we talk about something that impacts 2% of our listener base?
1:48
Right. Like, well, that's the same thing is because if you want to pick video game stuff, there's billions and billions of video game things constantly, especially with all the indie developers anymore. But I just kind of pick stuff that is interesting to me and that I think might be interesting to our listener base. And, of course, they can always write into us at eclecticgamerspodcast at gmail.com to let us know what they would like to hear about. I do know we have had a couple of emails asking about a PC game that's extremely popular. Have we now? Yes. I've deleted them so you can't see those messages. But they're all about, I'm trying to remember, was it Valheim? It's like a Viking game. Yeah, it's like a Viking survival game. It's extremely popular right now. It's all over Twitch and YouTube gaming. It's the new Among Us, which was the new Fall Guys or whatever it was called. Yeah. I actually purchased it this weekend. I have not played it yet. I just finished installing it. I say I purchased it this weekend. It was like I purchased it last night and started installing it and went to bed. Well, that's this weekend. And this morning, I've not played it yet. So it's on my list to play. So hopefully next episode I can talk about it. Okay. I'm sure I can pry myself away from Battletech long enough to put a little bit of time into another game. I'm not sure at all. I mean, hey, I haven't played Battletech at all today.

  • “Replay Foundation and Pinberg, more popular with hardcore pinheads than the Pinball Hall of Fame...I think there would have been even more people going into it and trying for it”

    Dennis @ Hall of Fame discussion — Suggests Replay Foundation's Penberg could have succeeded with fundraising effort

    • Jersey Jack Pinball
    company
    Multimorphiccompany
  • ?

    licensing_signal: Licensors breach confidentiality of manufacturer negotiations by sharing discussion details with competing manufacturers

    medium · Dennis cites Mueller's 2018 complaint: licensors shared confidential discussions with other manufacturers pursuing same license

  • $

    market_signal: Anonymous donor involvement in Pinball Hall of Fame fundraising suggests individual wealthy pinball enthusiasts exist with capacity to fund major projects

    medium · Dennis: 'an anonymous, generous donor...cut a check for $79,000'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Deep Root repeatedly missed production timelines (mid-March 2018 target failed; weather, parts, and UL certification cited as issues)

    high · Dennis: 'there was a hope to get games out, I think, mid-March. But that's not happening, obviously'

    • 3:25
    It's early. Well, I know. That's true. The sausage-making process. We record in the morning, people.
    3:36
    I just don't get the edits done until the evening. This is, I mean, morning is kind of I mean, I've been awake for over six hours at this point Yeah, I finished watching Dexter Oh, so you stopped at the end of season four?
    3:55
    Oh, is that where it jumps the shark? That's where it stops being good Nope, I just wrapped up the last of season eight Oh, I'm so sorry And apparently I heard that they're talking about making a new season of it. It's a show that I have rewatched since the first time I watched it one time. And I stopped after John Lithgow's character was done because the show just goes downhill from there. I do agree that it's that first half of the series is much stronger than the second half. Right. I get what they, you know, and I understand the desire to mix things up and not have it just be the same. he's doing this stuff and no one knows about it and it's with you know and just like they needed to take it somewhere new to keep it fresh i get it sometimes that works and sometimes it doesn't work um overall i didn't mind how they ended this well of course i thought the series was done so i was like okay i get kind of how they ended that but yeah it wasn't it wasn't it wasn't as bad as Season nine of Scrubs Bad, where it's blatantly a new show. I never watched Scrubs. I mean, I've seen some one-off episodes, but I never actually sat and watched Scrubs as a show I was consuming. Yeah. Scrubs is my current, I need background noise, but I don't want to pay attention to its show, because I have seen the entirety of that show like five times. Like a lot of people are with The Office. That's how I am with Scrubs. So for me, it's just pure background noise that I'll put on while I'm playing Battletech or doing something else. See, the analogy I would run with is I preferred the back half of the series of Dexter to the back half of Battlestar Galactica. Ooh, I don't know if I could do that. I don't know if I can agree with that. I get it. The plot points. You didn't like when Battlestar Galactica became Law and Order? I didn't. I, it's not that the Law and Order episode, like, was badly written. It's that all the, like, Battlestar Galactica quit being about Battlestar Galactica and started to be Union disputes and Law and Order and everything else about, it's like, hey, wait. We had press that said we're the greatest drama on TV. Now we're just going to be constantly different types of genres of drama. Like, every little subgenre, we're just going to do. do you not remember the Union Dispute episode? I do and I know that's just one episode and there are fewer episodes than there were of Dexter episodes but like there's very few plot things that Dexter did that I just thought was like oh my god this is so lame it just didn't work as well as the first half with Battlestar Galactica it was like oh look we tried to do a colony drop with our ship on New Caprica and now we have no budget to do anything else and it shows oh that was blatant yeah that was that that was blatant and humorous and so i it was in a way it was amusing but you know they're just everything got so stretched out and dexter because it was relatively self-contained for each season it was able to including in the final season to tie up all its loose ends in a manner that felt relatively natural, whereas Battlestar Galactica did the lost thing and it's like, holy crap, we didn't even use our last season efficiently, so now everything's in the last episode. Yeah. The opera house thing? Horrid. That... Horrid.
    7:31
    That one, see, some people like that. Some people were okay with it. Some people do crack. That doesn't make it right. I'm trying to think if I thought that the last, the very finals, like, I'm sorry everyone, we're not talking about pinball or video games, But these things could be pinball or video game themes, and that's what's important. I'm trying to think, is the last episode of Lost worse than the last episode of Battlestar Galactica? Yes. Or vice versa? Here's the thing. I gave up on Lost long before we got to the last season, let alone the last episode. So have you seen it?
    8:02
    I've seen it since. Okay. But I stopped watching it. I stopped actively watching it when it was on TV. Yeah, I remember that. Because it got to the point where I just didn't care anymore. I didn't care. It became obvious that they tried to set this whole thing up, and then suddenly they were like, well, we didn't actually have a plan.
    8:21
    And it showed. But Yabastar was the same way, where it started to feel like as they were revealing the skin job Cylons, the ones that looked like humans, and it seemed like they were just throwing darts at a board of names. Yeah, I can see that argument. I'm pretty sure I made that argument at one point. Spoilers for people who haven't seen the show. Who was the second? was a sal the sort of the second the old guy ce second yeah yeah it's like they never explained how he could be a silent that he was known for decades by people it didn't make any sense in their timeline well this is poorly thought out it i thought they kind of when they went back and retroactively created the background lore for the skin jobs i thought it kind of made sense I thought it was a stretch I did like the part where the guy who would do in Quantum Leap was the one who always said what Ziggy was saying was just like after everything was falling apart again just kills himself and I was just like whoa we're clearly just tying up a loose end here I'll just kill myself this is crazy he was like he was the audience he did what I felt I needed to do that went well maybe But all that said, I actually do agree with you. The last episode of Lost was worse than the last episode of Fast Talk Live. Oh, my God. Now, was it worse than the last episode of Enterprise? No. The last episode of Enterprise was just hurt by the simple fact that it wasn't about. I skipped the last season of Enterprise, except I watched that last episode, and it's bad. I enjoyed Enterprise. That was the thing. I actively enjoyed Enterprise. I heard that the last season got really good. I see. That's a show that actually got better as time went on. Yeah. But that's been true for most Star Trek. Right. They're almost always weak on season one, and they get stronger as they go on. Except Discovery.
    10:16
    Except Discovery, yeah. Enterprise. I enjoy Enterprise a lot more than Discovery, that's for sure. I mean, it still hasn't stopped me from watching Discovery, but... Anyway, so I've wrapped up Dexter, and so TV-wise, I'm thinking maybe I'll watch Soprano. I've never seen it.
    10:34
    Yeah, I have been continuing my quest to slowly work my way through the backlog of Stephen King stuff, the big name Stephen King books. I'm not going to try and read all of them because nobody's got that kind of time. But the really big name ones that I've not read before, I am going through and reading. And I just finished Carrie. Oh, yes. Earlier in the week. I read that. and then I decided to do a palate cleanse and change and read a book that I've read in the past, but it's been maybe 20 years since I last read it, and you recently read them.
    11:18
    I started rereading Dune. I am still on book four, and I've been liking it. I just haven't picked it up and finished it. Yeah. No, I've burned like halfway through book one of Dune in two days. The first Dune is quite readable. Oh, it's so readable.
    11:37
    That kind of goes away as you get farther along. Yeah, actually the first three, because they are kind of a trilogy, if you can think of it that way. And the second one, I think, is the weakest of the three. It's so plodding. It's also really a short book, too. Well, and one of the things that I liked in that series is I always felt that the last one, Chapter House, was the strongest of the later books. Okay. Interesting. I have started a new game because I did finish Control, so now I am playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey.
    12:10
    I do own or I'm getting Control. I haven't actually clicked the button yet, but it's in the Humble Bundle for March. Yeah, I think you'll like it. It's fun. But I haven't actually picked it up yet.
    12:30
    I haven't installed it yet, as it were. But, yeah, I'll give that game a try at some point. I don't know. I've still got another decade before the clans show up in Battletech. It will be there for you when you are ready. Yeah, it'll be there. It'll be in my giant list of games. so well speaking of our not so giant list but we we've burned like 10 minutes here talking about tv shows so let's go ahead and go into the formal topics everyone's tired of keeping their thumb resting on the fast forward button yeah so the first section of course would be pinball i only have two topics here to go over the first very very quickly uh pinball hall of fame we talked about it a few weeks ago that they were running a two hundred thousand dollar go fund me because They weren't able to operate to the degree that they would be able to pre-pandemic, which is the case for everyone. And so they were coming up short in terms of the funding they needed to do their move to the Strip in Vegas. It turns out an anonymous, generous donor looked at the GoFundMe total and went ahead and just, I guess, cut a check for $79,000, which would close out the GoFundMe. Now, that did not run through the GoFundMe. Last I heard, the GoFundMe is still open for additional funds. So when you look at the GoFundMe, it does not look like they've raised the $200,000, but with that donation, it has actually happened. Right. They have reached their funding goal. And as we were talking before we started recording, Tony, this is something that is an example, a case in point that the Replay Foundation could have chosen to attempt to do than just fade into the sunset and sell off all their games. Right. And I will be one of the first people to admit that I did not think that they were going to make the funding goal. And obviously they haven't through just the GoFundMe. This is very much a, I don't want to say angel investor, but it's like an angel donor that came in and let them finish it up, which is good. I was really worried that it wasn't going to happen because it's one of those places that is on my list of I would really like to go to one of these days. and I was hopeful that they would complete it, but I didn't actually think it was going to happen. Yeah, I was. I mean, in terms of entities, I think that the plan, being a nonprofit and doing the ask, was a smart maneuver. I didn't think that they would raise enough in small donations to hit the $200,000 within the time frame that they were operating under. But you know obviously as people watch and see how well they did very well they did better than I thought they would with small donations And then yeah they ended up getting a larger donor And I think that goes to show at least for those that are organized in a nonprofit fashion because again with an anonymous person we don know if this you know if they did I don't know if they did it through business, if they happen to have sizable tax burden and that this deduction made it much less painful for them to be able to do than, say, they, you know, giving seventy nine thousand dollars to a for profit, for example. We don't know. But obviously it's a sizable sum. And my immediate thing seeing that wasn't actually about the Pinball Hall of Fame, but it was about Pinnberg and thinking if only they had tried. Right. Maybe they could have done similar. Especially because they would have had a bigger window than just like two months. Yeah, they would have had a much larger window. Because they weren't moving somewhere.
    15:50
    Correct. Correct, and they also would have had a better chance, like we were talking before we started recording and talking about TV shows and everything else. It's one of those things that feels like it wasn't even given a chance to be saved, and it very much could have. And it was in a trouble spot that it honestly should never have been in to begin with, Penberg, in my mind. And this is really, I don't know this for a fact, this is total conjecture, but in my judgment, Replay Foundation and Pinberg, more popular with hardcore pinheads than the Pinball Hall of Fame. Oh, I think so. So I think they would have gotten more donations. They could have easily gotten more donations.
    16:40
    They could have easily, I think they could have easily found, easily is a strong word. I think there would have been even more people going into it and trying for it than did the Hall of Fame. And I think that it would have been, if anything, in a better place for those large kind of behind-the-scenes donations because it had so much to offer and it was such a large and beloved event. Well, we'll never know. So next pinball topic. This is an interesting one. So we're going to go a little bit into a time capsule here, Tony, because one of our emails that came in to our Eclectic Gamers podcast at gmail.com address is from Brian Alexander. And Brian wrote in and he asked if we could do a retrospective on the Deep Root interview that was done with Robert Mueller. It was the first, to my knowledge, verbal interview about Deep Root pinball that was conducted. and he brought it up because apparently that was three years ago oh that i did not remember it was that long that was that far back yeah and look and look we're deep root city now it's the exact same place they were three years ago so we that episode with the interview dropped on february 11th of 2018 so it's now over three years ago uh in order to have a proper discussion of this I have subjected myself to re-listening to the interview portion of that episode. So I'm not going to drop the interview in here. That would be both lazy and mean to do to the listeners. That would be. It'd be like, hey, look, it's a recap episode. My least favorite thing. That's something I associate with anime in particular, those stupid recap episodes. Ugh, I hate that crap. We're having a recap episode. This is episode two. Yes. Yeah, we're already caught up to the manga. We have no choice. Ugh. Okay. Anyway.
    18:40
    So I've listened to that and I've put in some highlights into our internal notes. So I figured we could just hit each highlight and then talk about it. Now, I want you to get your mind back to – it's hard to remember back to 2018. I can tell you because I listened to the intro to the episode because it, of course, preceded the interview itself. at three years ago, Tony, you were whining about how NBC will not shut their mouths and just let the Olympics play, but have to talk about everything and make it a big, dramatic story. That was where you were in your head. That sounds like me. Yes. You were praising how much better the BBC did it. Yes. So now you feel like what life was like three years ago. That's what life was like. Yes, because they always have to make big deals about, oh, this person had a hangnail before they put their boots on to go skating today that they had to take care of. And will that hurt their chances today, that hangnail? So here we go. Here are the highlights from the Deep Root interview. And I just figured I'll mention a – it's not going to be everything from the interview, obviously, but just some of the notable things. And so we can sort of talk about what was said then versus what we see now. And for those that aren't, I think we've touched on it a little bit. So Deep Root, though, did have another announcement at the end of the month, end of February, that the games are not – there was a hope to get games out, I think, mid-March. But that's not happening, obviously. Some of it had to do with them being in Texas and the situation with the weather and the electricity down there was cited. And I think there are also some parts issues. But I think they even mentioned UL certification was looking like it might happen mid-April. So just go to deeper if you need more details I clearly didn't write up a summary here So that's why I'm sort of spitballing what I remember hearing So from that interview in 2018 One of the first things that I talked about with Robert Was the claims process for those that didn't get their pins from Zidware And Robert noting what they knew what they were getting into When they brought J-Pop on board I don't think anything about that's really any different now No, I think that was a pretty standard. Other people are waiting for their games still. Well, yeah, of course. They better not be holding their breath. Yeah. Here's one I'd love your feedback on. So during the interview, Robert noted how they at Deep Root expected to have more innovation than all the other pinball manufacturers combined. Now, based off of what came out from the Deep Six and everything we've seen since then, do you agree? From pinbar to pinpod? I'm not. No, I don't. Because a lot of the things they showed are things that have been done before.
    21:28
    Like the upward hinging glass and all that stuff. That stuff's happened before. It's not new. It's not common.
    21:40
    And I don't think a lot of the other things they've shown were anything special. Oh, and the pen pod, it's a crate that you can break down or put together. I mean, that's not anything new. That's nothing special. Those already exist. That's just being placed in a new realm.
    22:01
    There is innovation. Do not make the mistake of thinking that there is no innovation. But I don't think they're more innovative than everybody else put together. Yeah. Yeah, and I'm in the same boat. Obviously, it depends how we define innovation.
    22:18
    And that's true. You know, I have had these discussions before with like looking at JJP's Guns and Roses. And it's things like, okay, well, do we count the lighting system as innovative? Do we not? Do we count like the cam rotor spotlights? Is that innovative? It's been done before, but it hadn't been done in pinball before. So does that mean it's, you know, it all sort of depends on your definition. I think when you look at a Deep Root game, the thing that screams innovative that's just so different is really the pin bar. And I would definitely cite it as an innovation. But again, it's one innovation. And you think about everything else that manufacturers are constantly putting out, even if it's relatively iterative innovations. Yeah, I just I don't really see it all when you think of things combined. And I mean, when you consider everything from Multimorphic to JJP, I just, yeah, I just don't see. I think that was, that was over, that's overly ambitious.
    23:13
    Yeah. And I mean, it's innovation and I'm still not sold that it's necessarily a good thing for pinball. Well, well, of course that again, that wasn't part of the claim. Was it whether, I'm sure they would think that it was good for pinball, but they weren't, they didn't argue that in the interview, at least. The argument was just that it would have more innovation than pinball. I'm still worried about the rules changing and the whole, oh, we can track and move your stuff from machine to machine. We're going to touch a little bit on that because we did talk about rules in that interview. But before that, actually, licensing came up. And this is just a sort of aside. It's not really a prediction, but Robert in the interview did note that the licensing aspect was really difficult. And in his case, he was citing, and we've seen this through some other manufacturers as well, But frustration because he would have discussions that were set to be confidential, but then the licensor ended up sharing that they had these discussions with other pinball manufacturers that were in pursuit of the same license later on. And so he was really frustrated with that. I mean, again, we've heard similar – since this interview happened, there was a whole hubbub that Spooky Pinball made with Stern coming in and swooping up Godzilla. And we've heard other instances, or at least I have in interviews with people saying, yeah, they'd go to a manufacturer or excuse me, a licensor as a manufacturer to try and get something. And then it's like they they had to deal with someone else, but you're allowed to outbid and take it and stuff like that. So, yeah, that's one of those things that I'm I think that it is a. I'm trying to think of a nice way to put it. Until there is a contract signed,
    24:55
    I mean, it doesn't make sense to me for a licensor to be locked into a NDA about having talked to somebody else, because that would be like trying to sell your home, but not being able to say that somebody else looked at your home is interested in it when it's trying to be sold.
    25:18
    I mean, part of them, I mean, the licensors want to get the best deal that they can for the license. And then putting things together, I mean, I can understand not telling what each other's bids are, but letting know that there are other bids out there makes sense to me. Sure. To me, it comes down to whether or not the licensor agreed to keep something. confidential and then broke that word or not would be the main issue. And like, for example, I didn't hear that with the Godzilla discussion. That just sounded more of a frustration that Spooky had that they were in a conversation. And then I remember when that one was presented, because it sounded the way they were saying it to me made it sound like they were like in a boardroom and Stern like just kicked in the door during the meeting and just like dropped a pile of cash on the table. But my understanding is in reality, it was more like they were in a convention space area and Stern walked up while they were having a conversation with the licensor and just sort of said, hey, yeah, we'd be interested or whatnot. I mean I could see why one would find it tacky in either instance, but it's quite a bit different when it feels versus if it's some conversational place where you meet with licensors just in this open space versus, hey, look, I just by proxy took over your entire company and I'm coming into your boardroom and interrupting all your meetings. I don't know. But that was always just my mental picture when I heard the spooky version of the events. So – but moving from licensors and back into this interview, one of the things I tried to get at when I spoke with Robert was what exactly was meant by quad assembly? So the manufacturing side of things. And Robert noted that it was a new process that would allow them to throttle outputs and do batch workflow but not in an assembly line fashion. And it was designed to allow them to do more with less space. And in the discussions, he noted it would be agile manufacturing and that the output could be like one unit a day to 100 units a day. But he didn't commit to specific numbers. He just stressed the idea that with Deep Root, when someone ordered a game, it would then be able essentially to be immediately built and that the idea was you wouldn't have to wait to get your pin. So what do you think about that? Because it doesn't seem like that that's come to fruition. they have no manufacturing, so it definitely hasn't come to fruition. Yeah, I have no idea if quad assembly is still a concept that they're running with, but they have taken people's money now, and those people are still waiting for games, and they're still getting excuses. I'm not saying those excuses aren't valid, but, I mean, be it power, be it parts. Is one of the excuses still that we don't have parts? Because we didn't set up parts? Sure. But I mean, you know, just to be me being critical, I would go back to saying, why did you take money before you filed for the UL certification? If that if your plan was to get UL certification, because I like UL certification, but my understanding is they don't all do it. Like, I don't think Spooky is UL certified. And maybe they should be, but they took money. They took preorder money before they got their UL certification because they still don't have their UL certification. So that sort of aspect, the thing that I have people write to me, and I think you're in on some of those messages that we get where the biggest thing people don't understand is that it doesn't seem like Deep Root has ever made any serious attempt ahead of time to get their manufacturing ducks in a row. It's always been everything else. Right. And the thing is, is that whole quad assembly thing just felt like buzzword soup to me. It felt like it back then. It feels like it now for back then. It feels like a non-answer. Well, and part of that at the time of the interview, Robert kept noting there were aspects to it that they considered proprietary that he wasn't willing to share. And I didn't put this in the summary of the notes, but as I listened back to the interview, like one of the examples was, and I don't remember the thresholds of space, he said. But it was essentially the notion that they would be able to build at the same level of output as a stern pinball in a much smaller space. And I don't remember the equation was 25,000 square feet would be sufficient for quad assembly versus what traditional assembly line would need 100,000 square feet. I remember the 100,000 came up. So – but again, it's like, okay. I don't see it. I don't see how it's – yeah. I don't see how it's possible. I see it all how it's possible. And it just seems like they not at all ready to demonstrate that So I not sure that this agile manufacturing is at all workable I don even know if they still trying to do it that way We never hear about quad assembly anymore No but we don really hear about their production plans at all, period.
    30:22
    Another part of the interview, Robert noted four levels of production behind the scenes in terms of game development. So we're talking about like the Whitewood process, what comes before the Whitewood process. And I believe the fourth level was the actual finished product.
    30:36
    That they might be doing that. I don't. In a way, it doesn't really matter. At the time, people were so confused about Deep Root as to whether or not they were going to have a Whitewood stage. And Robert confirmed that, yes, they they do that. They do have a Whitewood stage. The development process was somewhat typical, though. Maybe it was more virtual on the front end or something. I don't know if it's that much different. I think there's no real way to assess this other than it's never. We've seen the prototypes and stuff, so it seems like they're doing things akin to how others do them in that regard, to me at least. Yeah, no, I agree. It seems like more standard than what some people thought originally was going to be the case. During that interview in 2018, he noted that they had 25 to 30 patents in process at the time that we were talking, and that showing the cabinet would reveal a lot about what their intentions were, and because of that they didn't have any plan to show what the cabinet the actual finalized cabinet would look like until the five days of deep group obviously we know the five days of deep group ultimately got dropped as a unveiling concept but we have seen the finalized cabinet and i would agree that seeing the cabinet did show where much of their innovation that they were pushing it exists it's very much in the cabinet design from the pen bar to the unique lighting on the sides to the to the Cylon shape of the of the display. So I think that part came to fruition. I agree with you. That's definitely one of those things that would have given away pretty much everything. During the interview, I had asked who was going to do the rules for them since it hadn't been announced. And my questioning was very much oriented around their their programming firm that they were doing. And Robert noted that programming and rules are two separate things. And I think that very much came to fruition because ultimately we found out that Steve Bowden was going to become the rules designer for Deep Root. And at the time that had not yet been announced. In fact, it was the episode before the Deep Root interview where we had Steve Bowden on as a guest host. Oh, interesting. Yeah. Just as a fun guest host to have on. And during this section of the interview, Robert did talk about issues about thinking about having more than just a single rule set.
    32:58
    So moving forward now here into 2021, that has still been very consistent in the discussions. I've heard Steve talk about the idea of being able to have more than one rule package that you could employ on a game that they would be able to release. We saw that in the description of their subscription service for their software. and so and definitely and clearly uh steve is doing rules design he is not programming these games so i think this part has remained consistent yeah very much so now what now what anybody personally thinks of the consistency but well we don't have any definitely who cares how many rules packages that you might have for raza no one has a raza obviously i'm just i'm just as is known as i've said before i'm uncomfortable with the whole subscription service concept yeah i'm not i'm not a fan of it either uh during the interview i did also try and explore the idea of because of these multiple rule sets and stuff i i asked about if the software was going to be open source robert confirmed that it would not be open source and there were there were obvious risks that i probably should have thought of at the time like and this comes up with people modifying games, when you're dealing with high electricity things like pinball machines and the ability to blow out all of your MOSFETs and everything because you sent too much power to a coil or whatever, that there are some risks to having true open source customization. But Robert did say users can customize some aspects of the rules to their games that they would be able to play, that you'd be able to make adjustments. And my impression from that was that's not like setting from three ball to five ball, but actually changing how things score and stuff. I'm not clear if that's still actually in the works or not.
    34:43
    I don't know. That's something that I'm not sold on it. I can see having it, being able to have adjustments to go for like a competition mode versus your normal regular fun play mode. But just how much direct customizability I still don't think is really well known by us. It won't be until we actually see machines in hand. Yeah. And Robert kept it vague in this part. my impression, and it may not have been the right impression, but my impression at the time when he was describing it was like, if you wanted the right orbit on Raza to be worth more points, that you would have the ability to adjust that.
    35:36
    So that, I was thinking that level of customization, like you could say, hey, this, because he described about, you know, things not, it sounded like if you didn't think something got shot enough because this wasn't valuable, that you could at least control what that shot was worth you but you wouldn't be able to go in and dramatically like rework how the pop bumpers fired but you could change their scoring that was the sense i got and i'm not but i yeah i have no idea of that still in in play or not it shouldn't be a priority regardless so i'm not at all so so we talked a little bit about that um moving back over on the hardware side, Robert did point out in the interview that they were going to have a unique take on hardware, but it would be familiar to pinball people. And the idea for their hardware was designed to lower the price and need for maintenance. I can't tell yet whether or not the need for maintenance has been impacted. From the pricing on Raza, they have not lowered the price, so that didn't happen. And we hit on that a little bit later in the interview. So another aspect of the interview was sizing mentioned that they were planning to size things around the the wms games williams game sizing that wouldn't look out of place in the lineup back this was so early there were still a lot of people that suspected these were going to be like zizzle machines and i think this all was true came true like looking at how they how a deeper game looks it's unique but it wouldn't look weird in a lineup it would look like a normal pinball machine Right, and I remember that conversation back then about them being so much smaller. But from what we've seen, it's obviously right in line with what he said around a WMS machine.
    37:20
    He noted that Deeper did not have any plans to be in the parts business and that they were looking at suppliers to get the parts that they would use, like to mount onto the playfield and stuff. And it sounds like they are still seeking suppliers. Yeah, they seem to be having a supplier problem. But so that part at least is consistent. Another thing, this was when the sledgehammer test came up. So he Robert noted the plan was that play fields, each play field was going to have a sledgehammer taken to it. And if a mark is left, the play field doesn't leave the factory. Now that had been revised over time to no longer be a sledgehammer in the discussions. But they did come up with a, you know, that coating for their play fields that's designed not to leave a mark. And it sounds like it wasn't leaving a mark, though. The last I had heard of it, it was still having an issue with it coming out as an orange peel texture from the get go. But so I guess that's that was the sledgehammer part got got reformed relatively quickly. I think it was less than a year later that Robert was saying, well, we're not actually I was you know, there's a little bit of hyperbole there. He's not actually going to take a literal sledgehammer to the playfield. But the idea was that they were going to come up with something that wouldn't mark or dimple.
    38:34
    Right, which I would say is not yet successful or proven. Yeah, it's not like what they came up with doesn't mark. So I would say it's successful, except what's the point of having a playfield that won't dimple if it already looks like it's dimpled? Right. I mean, that was the part. It's not dimpled. It looks like it's dimpled. It's pre-dimpled. But it's totally not dimpled. It came pre-dimpled. So, yeah, that part, it's sort of a – and maybe they've sorted that out and I just haven't heard. Well, they haven't really released a lot of information lately that I've seen or heard.
    39:13
    Let's see. Robert did note that the expectation was that it was going to be difficult for other manufacturers to compete with Deep Root on pricing. that they were going to offer. Oh, the laughter.
    39:28
    Deeper was going to have a portfolio of games and that would vary on price. So they weren't going to just have a Raza is going to be the same price as Food Truck is going to be the same price as Alice in Wonderland is going to be the same price as Goonies. But he did also say no multiple versions of a title. So, so far, based off of Raza, competing on price is actually quite easy for the other manufacturers because Deep Root is not undercutting the pricing at all. And they had multiple versions. Remember, they were going to do three versions of Raza, and ultimately they ended up doing two, but that's more than one, which was what was indicated in the interview. So this part definitely did not come to fruition. Yeah, none of that panned out at all.
    40:12
    So yeah, that was dramatically different. Robert did note that the games were going to be tournament-friendly and owner-operator-friendly. again this is back when people were suspicious the games wouldn't even come with a coin door he also confirmed that they would come with a coin door based on what I saw with the pin bar I think this part's all true that you're able to switch into any setting mode that you would need to pretty easily so I think that's all accurate yeah I do think that would be more operator friendly than the current methods provided it's a system that continues to work and it doesn't end up failing from overuse.
    40:53
    And the last major thing I jotted down from the interview, it wasn't the last interview question, I thought it was the last one of note, was that Robert indicated a deeper plan to go into markets other manufacturers neither care about and or hadn't thought about, and that they were looking at unconventional distribution opportunities. And so I would check this down as a no. It looks like the only thing they have done is do direct sales through their website. which is something a number of manufacturers do. They have looked at very unconventional distribution opportunities. They're looking at the opportunities that you can buy a game and you never get it. Oh, wait, other people have done that already also. Yep. No, that's not unconventional either. Just ask Highway. Just ask Dutch. Just ask Skip B. Just ask Vonnie D.
    41:42
    Did Vonnie D ever take money? I don't know. I think that predates us. That predates my knowledge and background. The only thing I know about Von E.D. is that it was based in Missouri, and they had these awesome Fiverr-arranged puppet advertising campaigns for their GoFundMe or their Kickstarter, whatever they were doing. They went on Fiverr and found someone who will do things with puppets that looked like cheap Muppets.
    42:10
    I don't know if you've ever seen them. It's really weird. No, I've never seen them. I've heard about them, but I've never seen them. I'm not going to link it in the show notes because this is not the Von E.D. episode, but I'll see about sending you a couple at some point because they're like on YouTube still. So it's always – oh, it's so weird. So anyway, so there you go, Brian. There's your recap of what's happened. So yeah, three years ago. Wow. Long time. Still no game. Still no game in anyone's home.
    42:41
    Yeah. Yeah, and I'm disappointed, but ultimately with how pinball works with new startups, I am not surprised. Yeah, no, this interview is so long ago when I was talking with Robert. I described Dutch and Highway as just struggling.
    43:05
    That's how long ago this was. Now, obviously, Highway is dust in the wind at this point, and Dutch is trying to hire more people and is clawing their way back. Wow.
    43:20
    Yep. The dog war is going on. The dog war. Yep. You know what I'm not worried about? And that's moving into the video game section, Tony, because that's what we're ready to do.
    43:33
    All right. Well, just a few topics like we talked about at the beginning of the show to talk about video games.
    43:41
    One of the first things I want to start with was the Avengers game. A game I've not played, but I've talked to many people who have.
    43:52
    And a game that could very easily, in my mind, be argued as the most disappointing game of last year. I'm amazed you found a lot of people to talk to you about it Because it sounded like no one bought it Well the problem is a lot of people bought it And then stopped playing it very quickly I mean not enough people bought it to make back its money But I've talked to Probably a dozen or more people who've played it The interesting thing is They've got some new DLC coming out Bringing in Hawkeye who had originally been talked about like being the first DLC character. But nobody cares because he's Arrow guy. But in addition to that, they're revamping the XP system,
    44:43
    which instead of adding a static amount of XP required for every level, they're going to make it, once you pass level 25, it's going to get higher and higher and higher but it's not going to be the same static level. They're actually making the level grind worse. Yeah, I was going to say this doesn't sound like an improvement.
    45:08
    For some they said that they wanting to give new players I don know where they think they getting new players at this point a chance to get caught up and learn the skills necessary to take part in the high-end endgame content with the players that they've had from the beginning. So the experience is going to increase exponentially and make the grind on a game that's already been complained about having a terrible grind even worse.
    45:44
    That's an interesting choice for a game to make. I guess everyone who's like a really high level's level's going to fall now. So I guess that, I can see where that gets at, what they're saying. Like, oh, you're no longer level 80, you're now going to be level 62. I don't know if they're going to do that or if they're just going to lock the people in and just make it harder to level up unless you're reducing the spread on the levels I don't see how that gets newer players in with the end game folks because their level gap is so large what's the point of bringing in the noob right I don't know they're not getting new players though here's the thing the number of concurrent players on Avengers is so low that I'm surprised that they're still pouring money into this game. It's like the number of concurrent players, Tony, is so low on Avengers that if it was a carbonated beverage, it would be labeled as diet.
    46:46
    Exactly. That's exactly what it would be. It was such a high-hoped game that failed so miserably. And for all the crud that has been given to Cyberpunk for all of its issues, Cyberpunk is still a much more successful game than Avengers.
    47:08
    Period. From last year. Well, maybe they just need to release some WandaVision DLC or something. Yeah.
    47:18
    But speaking of games with a concurrent player-based problem, Valve has thrown in the towel, and they are abandoning Artifact.
    47:30
    Artifact was their Dota 2 collectible card game, their version of Hearthstone or Magic the Gathering that they kicked out several years ago. And it was the one where they decided to embrace the worst parts of actual collectible card gaming. and the only way to get new cards was to literally buy blind packs.
    47:55
    Oh, that might work with in-person card games. But digitally, I mean, even in Hearthstone, while you buy the stuff, you can earn packs and you can earn credits to get packs with just by playing the game. You don't have to buy it. in Artifact you had to purchase. It was the only way.
    48:20
    They had such a low concurrent player base that they went out and they were developing a new version of Artifact. Artifact 2.0 beta that they put out there. And everything was still so bad that they're just like, no, we're done. This is unsavable.
    48:38
    It's so hard to save something like that. I mean, I'm trying to think of instances where people have taken games that are just hated or broken.
    48:46
    We've seen some that have limped along. I mean, there are cases like No Man's Sky getting reformed into a good game. The one that always sticks out to me, remember when Square Enix rebuilt Final Fantasy XIV and turned it into, supposedly, a really fun game. I've not tried it. Nor have I. I've actually considered trying it since they've got so much you-can-play-free-to-a-certain-point stuff. I've thought about trying it, but I've not. I have such a hard time getting into MMOs anymore. Yeah, I don't know if I'll ever do another MMO, but... But, yeah, no. Valve decided that they just... The game is now free to everyone, and all the cards are unlocked and free. It's just... They're not going to make any quality of life adjustments. They're not doing any... It's out there as it sets right now, as the 2.0 beta. That's what it is, and they're never going to touch it again. It's just done.
    49:42
    So... It is Valve's way. It's Valve's way. And the interesting thing is, when Artifact originally came out, the actual gameplay had a lot of people who liked the gameplay.
    49:53
    But it just didn't make up for everything else. So. And since we're on the topic of abandoned games. Oh, I heard about this one.
    50:09
    Spoiler alert. It's big. BioWare dumped Anthem. For those of you who don't remember what Anthem is, I don't blame you. But it was so hyped. It was so hyped. Anthem had to be in... I mean, BioWare is a huge, well-known company and Anthem had to have been one of the most hyped games before launch. I remember seeing the videos at E3 and people talking about it and that game looked amazing. Main stage attention. Oh, yeah. I was actually interested in this game for a while. I was interested in it, too, until the game launched in 2019, and it was just destroyed when it first dropped. I remember hearing that it was a terrible experience, and I immediately dropped it off my list of interests. I did the exact same thing, because the experience, everybody I heard who played it, thought it was a bad experience. They said it felt like an incomplete game, like they just hit the release date and just said, well, you can have whatever's there, and we'll fix it in post.
    51:26
    They wanted it to be a living game. They wanted it to be a Destiny-type game, but it did not drop with the kind of love that Destiny had, which for a game as hyped as Anthem was leading into it is just the kiss of death. Yeah, it's interesting to me because when Destiny dropped, and Destiny 2 for that matter, horrible complaints about a lot of how both of those games were, but they gave them enough time that they were able to fix both with DLC.
    52:07
    But with Anthem, I don't know if it's because Destiny already existed and people are just like, nope, we're not giving you a chance. Yeah, it was just like, nope, we've had it. It's done and gone. And what's impressive to me is that they have fought for so long to reinvent that game, to bring that game back into a point where they can recoup their losses. Well, it's like, poor BioWare. This flopping after Mass Effect Andromeda was so ill-received as well. And didn't I, I want to think I saw something after this was announced that EA was saying something along the lines of they were going to allow their studios to have more flexibility in their own decision making.
    52:50
    Did you see something like that? I think it was like in a shareholder call that they were talking about. Yeah, as I recall. But it's one of those things that just...
    53:03
    BioWare is just so hard for a company like that to take the hits that it's taken recently. Well, that's like the same thing for Blizzard. I'm just like, are these bees?
    53:19
    Are they going to survive? Because big studios, they're not guaranteed to live forever. If they keep turning out crap, the publishers that control them will close them down.
    53:33
    And I think that's something that's a serious concern to have for some of these companies. I'm not sure. If BioWare flops their next Dragon Age, I don't know if we still see BioWare. I just don't know. I think they have to have something. This was a company that's expected to turn out hits, not crap. Right. And I'm in the exact same boat you are. I think that they are getting to a point where it is a do or die, make or break for them.
    54:00
    And where they go in the future will just depend. I mean, I don't think, like Blizzard is not the Blizzard we all fell in love with. Blizzard's not the giant can do no wrong company that they were. I think Bioware has burned through a lot of their goodwill that they've made up over the years.
    54:31
    I think that's why something like the Mass Effect Legendary Edition is very much the nostalgia hit. It's the trying to keep things on an even keel. It's the safe money bet. And sort of like what we're seeing out of Blizzard, too. Right.
    54:55
    Because Blizzard just keeps going back to the old classics, which is kind of a Blizzard thing. But Blizzard is in a bad place, too, following the BlizzConline.
    55:11
    I don't know what's saying it. BlizzConline. Where it was flat out. I mean, they've got two titles coming out, and neither of them are coming this year.
    55:24
    And that is deeply damaging to them. Now, what's interesting is they are, the one thing they've got coming is the Diablo II Resurrected, which Diablo II is the best Diablo, in my mind. And you touched on this, it was a big piece of the BlizzCon line thing. It was. It was like the only good thing out of the BlizzConline thing for me.
    55:51
    And they've dropped some new information on it because they did drop that your save files from the original Diablo 2 will work. So you can import them into the new Diablo. Not that I still have those.
    56:02
    That was like three or four computers ago, Tony. That was like four computers ago for me. I know I don't have those anymore.
    56:11
    I was never big about moving over my saves at that point. But that's, yeah, that's really interesting. I mean, that will be a big deal to a lot of people. I wanted to note, because we did also have an email from Chris Chandler, who I do have a link to the article he linked to us in our show notes from PC Gamer. But it was noting that, and I guess this fits with how the save file thing works, is for Diablo II Resurrected, they're running a 3D engine on top of the original 2D engine. And you can even revert back to the 2D version in-game if you want to play under that old engine. See, I had heard that you could go between the two. I didn't realize you could do it in-game. I heard that you would be able to go between the 2D and the 3D.
    56:59
    That's cool. that is cool i don't know if i would but you know that kind of reminds me of uh i played the remastered versions of monkey island and they let you do that in game you could hit a thing or go into a setting you could go back to the original graphics or play the nicer there's even an achievement on the xbox to to go into the old version graphics is there an achievement to beat the game using just the old version graphics no which is probably good because i don't know if i could deal with that level of EGA that long. But yeah, no, I believe he noted that it was supposed to let you do it in-game. And that also, Chris's speculation based off of what he read is that he doesn't think this is going to be the big screw-up like we saw with the – I think he referenced WoW, but I think he was thinking more of the StarCraft reboot, you know, the screw-up that Blizzard did. The Warcraft reforge? Oh, no. He said WoW, so he must have meant Warcraft reforge. I thought maybe they were doing this one right. Because I know WoW Classic didn't go over quite as well as people wanted, though the Burning Crusade probably should help that. Because Burning Crusade is an excellent expansion. But, yeah, no, WoW Reforged was just a crash and burn of epic proportions.
    58:14
    So that made them look bad, which they didn't need to look any worse than they already did. Yeah. No, and I, you know, so anyway, so based on the additional news, I do think it does sound like they did actually learn some lessons. I hope so. I have big belief that they can have actually learned lessons. We'll see how this works out. This is their best chance because I would say that the Diablo games are some of the games that originally were so huge for them. that this is their chance to really bring fans back. I agree. While in a way it's somewhat annoying to me, I almost want to call it the intellectual laziness of relying on a reboot for getting good attention for your company is basically just lean on your past that heavily. It does work. And if done with sufficient upgrades, I think it can be appreciated. My case in point would be that I think Capcom has been doing an excellent job, not just re-releasing their old stuff like they always do all the time and is so lazy, but doing what they've done with Resident Evil, complete reworkings. Those, I think, can really be appreciated. There's clearly hard work that goes into that. And so if that's what Blizzard can do here with Diablo II Resurrected, I mean, they could use the win. Let's just put it that way. They could definitely use the win. Well, I think we've won our way through all of our topics. I think so. So for those that didn't catch it any of the other times I said it, you can always email us at eclecticgamerspodcast.gmail.com. You can always reach out to us at facebook.com slash eclecticgamerspodcast. We're available on Twitch, Twitter, and Instagram as eclectic underscore gamers. And who knows what interesting new news we will have tracked down in the next two weeks. But until then, I am Dennis. I'm Tony. Goodbye, everybody.