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Ep 78 - Chris Kooluris of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast

Special When Lit·podcast_episode·56m 40s·held·Nov 14, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Kaneda discusses pinball pricing, themes, and Deep Root Pinball make-or-break moment at Houston Expo.

Summary

Chris Kooluris (Kaneda) discusses his Kaneda's A A Pinball Podcast origin story, pinball pricing dynamics, the importance of theme licensing for commercial success, and Deep Root Pinball upcoming Raza reveal at Houston Arcade Expo. The conversation covers manufacturing challenges for new manufacturers, John Popadiuk design philosophy, and Deep Root Pinball pipeline of games including Magic Girl resurrection and Alice in Wonderland.

Key Claims

  • Kaneda's A A Pinball Podcast was born when Chris Kooluris was banned from Pinside for being controversial, then launched over 3 years ago with now 416+ episodes

    high confidence · Chris Kooluris stated this directly in the interview on Special When Lit

  • Stern Pro pricing is aligned with natural inflation since Lord of the Rings in 2011 (originally $3,800)

    high confidence · Chris Kooluris made this pricing comparison directly

  • Theme or licensed IP is vital to the commercial success or failure of a new pinball machine

    high confidence · Chris Kooluris stated 'theme or license is absolutely vital to the success or the failure of a new machine' and hosts Penn/Bill agreed

  • Deep Root Pinball Mueller said people will have games in their homes within two weeks of ordering at TPF reveal

    high confidence · Chris Kooluris cited Robert Mueller 'on the record' for this claim

  • Manufacturing capacity and execution is the major hurdle for starting a new pinball company, not game design

    high confidence · Penn/Bill stated 'the major hurdle from starting your own pinball company is going to be the manufacturing' and cited 'anyone can make a pinball machine, let's see you make 10'

  • Jersey Jack is beta testing Wi-Fi code update capability for machines

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg (Jersey Jack update) reported JJP is beta testing Wi-Fi update program

  • Willy Wonka owners report cracking clear coat from in-lane wire return ball drop due to weak playfield design

    high confidence · Ken Rudberg (Jersey Jack update) noted this is common in Pat Lawlor games

  • Scott Danesi invented the spinner in the outlane (disputed by Jack Danger)

    high confidence · Charlie (Spooky) acknowledged the debate and confirmed Spooky is doubling down with spinners in both outlanes and potentially in the trough

Notable Quotes

  • “The show was born when I was banned from Pinside for being a little bit of a controversial figure in the pinball community...not one to be silenced in this world, I decided to do a pinball podcast.”

    Chris Kooluris @ Early in interview — Explains the origin of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast and Chris's approach to covering pinball without filter

  • “Canada's A A Pinball Podcast is basically just a commentary about the pinball commentary. I try to capture the conversations people are talking about, not from a tournament player level, but more of buying pinball machines and all the rumors and speculations.”

    Chris Kooluris @ Early in interview — Defines the show's focus on collector/casual market rather than tournament play

  • “I don't think pinball is overpriced. I think what's happened is manufacturers have realized how to make a lot of money by dressing up the machines and going after the collector market.”

    Chris Kooluris @ Pricing discussion — Core philosophy on why LE pricing exists despite skepticism

  • “It just feels like the game's going to come out the day after we all die at this point...they just have to show it.”

    Chris Kooluris @ Deep Root discussion — Expresses frustration with Deep Root's slow development timeline

  • “If they show us a final Raza at TPF, Robert said, and he's on the record for saying this, people will have games in their homes within two weeks of ordering it. Like, why would you say that following this industry?”

    Chris Kooluris @ Deep Root/manufacturing discussion — Highlights Robert Mueller's aggressive manufacturing claims that conflict with industry norms

  • “Anyone can make a pinball machine. Let's see you make 10.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ Manufacturing discussion — Core industry principle about manufacturing bottlenecks

  • “Owning a broken Magic Girl, it's like having a broken child and you send it away to military school. And you're excited to get the child back.”

    Chris Kooluris — Describes personal experience with broken original Magic Girl and anticipation for Deep Root restoration

Entities

Chris KoolurispersonPenn CromwellpersonBill WebbpersonRobert MuellerpersonJohn PapadiukpersonCharliepersonScott DanesipersonJack DangerpersonKen Rudbergperson

Signals

  • ?

    announcement: Deep Root Pinball scheduled to reveal Raza (Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land) prototype at Houston Arcade and Pinball Expo this weekend

    high · Chris and hosts discuss Raza reveal 'this weekend' at Houston Expo as imminent soft launch opportunity

  • ?

    product_strategy: Hosts and Chris agree that licensed theme/IP is the single most important factor for commercial success of new pinball machines; non-licensed games face significant headwind

    high · Repeated discussion comparing Jurassic Park (licensed, successful) vs Black Knight (original theme, struggled); Raza's non-licensed theme noted as risky for a company launch

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Community sentiment toward Deep Root is cautiously optimistic but impatient and critical; Houston Expo reveal is described as 'make-or-break' moment; high risk if reveal disappoints

    high · Chris: 'they have to knock it out of the park or people are going to laugh at them because of where they set expectations.' Hosts emphasize this is 'pivotal and important' moment for company momentum

  • ?

    manufacturing_signal: Manufacturing capacity is identified as the primary bottleneck for new pinball manufacturers, not game design; Robert Mueller's claim of 2-week delivery is viewed with skepticism given industry norms

    high · Chris questions Mueller's two-week delivery promise: 'Why would you say that following this industry? What if he gets a thousand orders? Can't make 2,000 games in two weeks.'

  • ?

    machine_intel: Deep Root has multiple games in development pipeline at various stages: Raza (prototype reveal expected), Magic Girl (resurrection with art redesign in progress), Fire and Brimstone, Alice in Wonderland (playfield design complete, foam core prototype seen)

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.170

0:00
Coming at you out of St. Charles, Illinois, the special When Lit Pinball podcast starts now. Hey, what's going on, Pinball Land? Welcome. It's episode number 78 of the special When Lit Pinball podcast with Bill Webb. I am Penn Cromwell. It's cold and chilly in Chicago, but today we've got a guest that's going to come in and heat it up a little bit. He's a two-time Twippy Award winner for Podcast of the Year. Some say he's the only true voice to be heard in pinball media. Welcome to the show, Mr. Chris Kalouris of Kaneda's Pinball Podcast. What's going on, Chris? Gentlemen, thank you for having me. Hopefully I can heat up the cold day that we're experiencing right now because it's freezing here in New York City as well. Well, Chris, we've been talking about doing a podcast for a while, and I'm glad it's finally come to fruition. I appreciate your time. I'm looking forward to talking some pinball with you today. I'm excited. This is, I think, the first podcast that's ever interviewed me. So I'm just looking forward to sitting back and seeing what kind of things you guys come up with because this is great. I have absolutely no notes, no nothing. So we're just going to do From the Cuff podcast. Yeah, and that's what I'm looking forward to with this show. It's going to be completely organic off the cuff as you speak. Nothing planned, so to say. So let's see where the conversation takes us. Now, if somebody's not heard Canadian's Pinball Podcast, do me a favor, Chris. let our listeners know what is canada's pinball podcast all about and where do you see your show as it moves forward right right i'll be concise so the show was born um when i was banned from pinside from for being a little bit of a controversial figure in in the pinball community uh i kind of have an ability to pick a topic and stay on the topic uh and so ultimately they decided Pinside was better off without me, but not one to be silenced in this world. I decided to do a pinball podcast inspired by the few pinball podcasts that were out there at the time, like Nate Shivers, Spooky Pinball had a podcast. And so I just put up an episode about a little over three years ago, not really knowing what would happen. I think, you know, the first few shows organically had about like two to 400 listens and it started to build momentum. Here we are now, three years later, 416 episodes of my podcast. Yeah, I guess the best way to summarize Canada's Pinball Podcast, it's basically just a commentary about the pinball commentary, if that makes sense. I try to capture the conversations people are talking about, not from a tournament player level, but more of like buying pinball machines and all the rumors and speculations we love to talk about on a weekly basis in the hobby. Yeah, starting three years in over 400 episodes is incredible. We've been on the air for a little over a year. July 2018, we started. And to kind of see how pinball is changing, even in that short of time, how this niche hobby that we have and that we love has grown. There's a lot of strong personalities. There's a little bit of drama. There's a lot of backstories. It's exciting, and it's an exciting time to be in pinball. Well, people are very passionate, right? And I think one of the things I love about pinball is whenever you enter into a hobby where the passion level is super high, people are very emotionally invested in this thing. Right. And I sometimes say it's a non-essential toy. But my God, can we can we not, you know, always find interesting conversations to create out of that toy? So it's fun to see how people respond to these things on a weekly basis. this. It's funny that you mentioned the word toy, because when I think of a toy, I don't think of something that is necessarily going to cost $5,500 to $15,000. But I mean, that's the price for pleasure if you're in pinball. And I know that pricing is something that you've talked about repeatedly on your show. And I don't know if you wanted to give us a little commentary on where you think pricing is and where you think it needs to be. We could talk about that for a little bit. I mean, look, it goes anywhere. What's the cheapest machine right now? Is it like around $6,000 new in box? Yeah, $55,000 to $6,000. So anywhere from $6,000 all the way up to $15,000. I really, you know, I don't think pinball is overpriced. I think that what's happened in pinball is basically the manufacturers have realized how to make a lot of money by dressing up the machines. And sort of going after the collector market, I still think the best bang for a buck is a Stern Pro. I think a Stern Pro is aligned with where pinball pricing would be had pinball prices increased naturally with just inflation and cost of goods. We see people all the time, and I do this all the time too. We're like, well, Lord of the Rings was $3,800. Well, here we are 11 years later. Everything's more expensive, right? Right. So it's not surprising that now we have games around $6,000. I think when you get to the top of the pinball market, I think there is there's basically you're not getting what you're paying for. But the people who are paying that sort of know that going in to the LE models of pinball. Yeah, I think when we talk about the higher priced pins, I mean, they cater to a different type of collector. Right, right. And it's not necessarily me. I'm not in on the super LEs or signature editions. And it's not because I don't want to own them. It's just out of my price range. That said, I don't blame the companies or the manufacturers if the profit is there to be made and you can still facilitate a customer need. Now, is there a driving force of a customer base that would like to see a little bit more bang for their buck? There absolutely is. But from the business side of things, I can't fault Stern or anybody else for making the money if it's there. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, look, if I was working in any pinball marketing department, I absolutely would be doing what Stern Pinball is doing. Now, you can't be mad at them. I mean they're laughing all the way to the bank on some of these launches. And as I said before, like even the guys who buy those $15,000 machines, they're not upset either. They're happy they're getting their game. Absolutely. But I do think that overall, I would just like to see there more go into these games for how expensive they are. And I think when you start adding $3,000 over the price of a pro, there should be more that goes into those machines. But they'll never do it if people just keep running and buying every single LE that comes out. I think what I've noticed is that there is a concentrated effort from all the pinball companies that kind of give you more and put more into the games, whether it be Stern Pinball, Jersey Jack Pinball, Chicago Gaming Company, American Pinball. and I just think that it's a different approach to the manufacturing process and probably a different business model for each one of the manufacturers, which is why we see a certain type of game that we're used to coming out of Stern. There's a certain type of game that we expect and we're used to coming out of Jersey Jack Pinball. Same thing with American Pinball. If you look at the LEs over the last couple of years and how they've increased with mirrored back glasses and the powder coating and some of these from where it was like the days of Transformers LEs, You know, you get a whole heck of a lot there. Yeah, no, and I think what's interesting, right, is we're definitely getting competitors to Stern, I think, putting much more effort because they're looking at it. If we can add more value, we'll get customers and people will see the value we're giving for the money. And there's no denying it, right? You look at an Oktoberfest and a Houdini, those games are jam-packed for $7,500. hundred bucks. But unfortunately, the the marketability and the financial success of the competition hasn't hasn't been there for them. And you kind of have to wonder what is what does it take to actually make a game commercially successful and give you the value you deserve for the money? Yeah, I think recent history has shown us that theme or license is absolutely vital to the success or the failure of a new machine. Yeah, no, it's great. It's a great question. So you guys think theme is, is that the most important thing? Yeah, I think that's what's going to initially reel people in. I mean, you never get a second chance to make a first impression. If I'm going to go out, if I'm the average Joe and I'm looking to put a game in my game room, right, something recognizable is going to be what I'm going to be drawn to. Now we're geeks about this stuff so that we're always looking for the playability. We're looking for the pinball experience. We're looking for code. We're looking for artwork. Um, all that can be appreciated, but still the theme has to be there. If you want it to stick around and you want it to be in your home if you want it to do well on location it's vital it's totally important well here i mean just look at it like jurassic park versus you know black knight i mean put those two side by side in the laundromat which one's gonna earn more right which is crazy when you think about when you think about those two games and those are two games that came out last year i think there was an expectation because black knight wasn't a licensed theme that we might see a lot more money put into the mechanics of the game, right? Whereas Jurassic Park, more expensive license, we actually got more, both from a theme standpoint and from a mechanical standpoint in Jurassic Park. And I think that's one of the reasons why Black Knight struggled, because it looked pretty empty for a game that wasn't an expensive license to acquire. For sure. I mean, even look at Jurassic Park. When it was announced, I was excited. I was like, great, we have another Jurassic Park movie pin, but it wasn't going to follow the movie and it was going to have its own storyline within Jurassic Park. That kind of made me hesitate to get excited. But when I see what they did with the pinball machine, it's really just a fun story. Very well executed. The thing that I wonder is, does it open up Pandora's box where you can chase down the big licenses, but gone are the days of trying to nail down all the original movie assets. Gone are the call-outs. Gone are the movie clips.

American Pinball is building a larger presence in Europe; first Oktoberfest arrived in Switzerland

high confidence · Brian Kosner (American Pinball update) reported this

@ Deep Root/Magic Girl discussion

  • “Alice in Wonderland from an art package is the most beautiful pinball machine ever in the history of pinball, without a doubt.”

    Chris Kooluris @ Deep Root games discussion — Strong aesthetic assessment of John Papadiuk/Zombie Yeti collaboration

  • “John needs a new form of gravity to be invented.”

    [name withheld pending review] @ John Papadiuk design discussion — Critiques complexity of Papadiuk's playfield designs

  • “I love TPF. Every pinball show is fun, but TPF is usually the one I make a trip to. I love what Ed and Kim do with the show.”

    Chris Kooluris @ Shows discussion — Indicates Chris's preference for TPF event despite losing Twippy category

    • Brian Kosner
    person
    Joel DeGuzmanperson
    Jeremy Packerperson
    Kaneda's Pinball Podcastorganization
    Special When Lit Pinball Podcastorganization
    Deep Root Pinballcompany
    Stern Pinballcompany
    Jersey Jack Pinballcompany
    Spooky Pinballcompany
    American Pinballcompany
    Razagame
    Magic Girlgame
    Alice in Wonderlandgame
    Houston Arcade and Pinball Expoevent
    The Pinball Factory (TPF)event

    high · Chris discusses all four titles with current development status; Magic Girl art redesign complications explained (Zombie Yeti copyright protection)

  • ?

    product_concern: John Papadiuk's complex playfield designs (especially Alice in Wonderland) raise concerns about manufacturability and playability; described as pushing envelope but potentially requiring extensive team guidance and engineering to execute

    medium · Chris: 'John needs a new form of gravity to be invented.' Hosts note he 'benefits from a team of people behind him to take his ideas and make them come to fruition'

  • ?

    code_update: Jersey Jack Pinball is beta testing Wi-Fi code update capability allowing remote code delivery; recruiting testers via Pinside thread; will distribute Wi-Fi dongles to beta participants

    high · Ken Rudberg (JJP): 'Jersey Jack is currently beta testing its Wi-Fi update program where you're able to update your code over Wi-Fi. They're looking for feedback on both wired and Wi-Fi connections'

  • ?

    product_concern: Willy Wonka machines experiencing clear coat cracking from in-lane wire return ball drop; common issue in Pat Lawler designs due to weak playfield design at switch slot

    high · Ken Rudberg: 'Some Willy Wonka owners have reported cracking of the clear coat from the in-lane wire return ball drop. It's pretty common in Pat Lawler games...recommended that if you own a Willy Wonka, you get some switch slot protectors'

  • ?

    personnel_signal: American Pinball hired artist Joel DeGuzman to design new mascot Amy Penn; DeGuzman previously worked on pinball art including Pentastic New Robert Englunds

    high · Brian Kosner: 'American Pinball released a black and white image of their new mascot, Amy Penn. I chatted with artist Joel DeGuzman, who was recently hired to design the art for the new mascot'

  • ?

    venue_signal: American Pinball is building larger presence in Europe; attended DPO Expo in Netherlands; first Oktoberfest machine delivered to Switzerland

    high · Brian Kosner: 'American Pinball also attended DPO Expo in the Netherlands over the weekend and showed off Oktoberfest and Houdini. And also the first Oktoberfest have arrived in Switzerland'

  • ?

    industry_signal: Debate on Facebook between Jack Danger and Scott Denisey over credit for inventing outlane spinner; Spooky Pinball (Charlie) settled dispute by crediting Scott Denisey as inventor

    high · Charlie: 'everybody who's been in pinball more than five minutes knows that Scott Dinizi invented the spinner in the outlane when he was seven years old'

  • $

    market_signal: Pinball machine pricing has increased naturally with inflation and COGS since 2010s; Stern Pro now represents baseline value-aligned pricing (similar to Lord of the Rings' inflation-adjusted cost)

    high · Chris: 'Lord of the Rings was $3,800...here we are 11 years later. Everything's more expensive, right? It's not surprising that now we have games around $6,000'

  • ?

    content_signal: Twippy Awards Podcast of the Year category is ending after this year; Chris Kooluris won twice in this category before discontinuation

    high · Penn: 'Too bad that comes to an end this year.' Chris: 'Too bad. It was a good ride, buddy.'

    • 9:55
    And I'm wondering, will we just see games now that have the license, but don't necessarily feel hindered by following the storyline? The universe. Yeah, the universe of that property. Yeah. Right. Will big licenses be successful if they're going to be following original storylines and not following the original license as intended? But even some games that have had all the assets, I don't think so. I mean, there's a couple in my mind, but I'm not going to say them out loud, that even though they had all the assets, didn't do a great job utilizing that stuff. No, no. I was just saying there's there are certain properties, I think, where you can do that right, where you can expand upon the film itself and make a unique journey. I think Ninja Turtles is going to be that, right? I mean, I don't think it's going to be based on the Ninja Turtle movies. I think it's going to be based on the comics, but it'll probably be a unique Ninja Turtle adventure. You know, that is... Yeah, I think Ninja Turtles as a license is interesting because I think that's one of those rare licenses that actually lends itself well to maybe having an original storyline because there's so much content out there for Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. I can see where having a new adventure within the license would be considered almost like bonus content for those that are fans of the franchise. Right. Let's throw out a theme like Star Wars, though, right? We've seen video games take the Star Wars franchise and do expanded universe storytelling like Knights of the Old Republic. Do you think that would work in pinball if there was a Star Wars machine that was a unique experience? Yeah, for sure. I mean, Star Wars, again, another one of those licenses that's so well known and so well recognized. And we've seen so many different variations of or creations within the license of Star Wars that I don't think that it would be a bad decision to offer additional Star Wars content. Now, do I see another Star Wars pin or additional content coming out for Star Wars anytime soon? Probably not. I think there's enough out there to kind of diversify. But Star Wars would absolutely lend itself well to its own individual adventure. Yeah, I mean you could make a Star Wars – it would be really hard. I mean you can do it in the video game world because they're creating an entire storyline that you play through. A lot harder to do that. But and there's I guess the point where that we should probably say is there's millions of dollars to be made in the video game world. That's why they they can do it, if not like a billion dollars to be made. Pinball is probably not big enough for the license holder, you know, to the amount of money that would require to get all the rights to making an entire entirely original Star Wars journey. I say that as of today, like when The Mandalorian is out right now on Disney Plus Channel today, each episode was like $15 million.
    12:39
    That's amazing to me. Right. I can't wait to watch it. Hopefully it's amazing. That's the Boba Fett side story, right? Because wasn't Boba Fett a Mandalorian? Well, but here's the thing. Boba Fett was not a Mandalorian. He was wearing the costume as an imposter. So that's just a little geek fact there for people. Well, speaking of little-known facts, Chris and Bill, why don't we get into a little Deep Root pinball? Yeah.
    13:04
    So we are kind of in a holding or waiting period as the Houston Arcade and Pinball Expo is going to be starting this weekend. And Deep Root, this is going to be the first chance that we get a chance to see the machines that they're bringing. That is Raza, the Retro Atomic Zombie Adventure Land. We've been waiting and speculating on Deep Root for, it seems like, a couple years. Maybe it has been a couple years. And we finally get to see what they're going to bring to the show. Chris, what is it that you're anticipating that Robert Mueller, Deep Root and staff will be bringing to the Houston Arcade and Pinball Expo? Right. It just feels like the game's going to come out the day after we all die at this point. Right. I mean, at some point, the story of my life. Right. At some point, like they just have to show it. Like, I do think that Robert's sandbagging us a little bit. I don't think what he brings this week is going to be the final product. But then again, it's like, I don't know, you know, it's like with all new pinball in your head, in your imagination, it's the greatest game ever. The next game is always the greatest game ever. And they done a good job in terms of raising our expectations to be sky high So I just think they have to knock it out of the park or people are going to laugh at them because of where they set expectations But I don't know what to expect at Houston. I really don't. We've never seen anyone. And I mean like since I've been watching this hobby, come to a show with a half-baked game that's not final and show it. Like have you ever seen anyone do that? Yeah, I mean, we've seen like a box of light show up at a show.
    14:37
    A guy that's on staff over there at Deep Root right now had a game or two that's come out. From a major manufacturer?
    14:45
    Yeah, no, you're right. Probably not from a manufacturer. I know this weekend, I think, is a very pivotal and important weekend for Deep Root. And by coming out and showing something that's innovative and something that is awe-inspiring, I think that it lends itself to a successful soft reveal for the company or soft launch. Now, in reverse, if we're not impressed as a general public, pinball public, with what we're seeing being revealed at Deep Root, I think then you lose – risking losing the interest in the company moving forward. And you don't want to go to the show, and you don't want to lose momentum. Right. But that being said, you have an opportunity to win over your customer base. It's a risky move, and we just have to wait and see what happens this weekend. Right. Now, I agree. I mean, I'm just looking forward to seeing something. this thing has been just a slow motion promise that just just just make a pinball machine that's it just make one don't make five don't make more than stern's ever made in a year just make one blow our socks off with it and here's what will happen though if they make something that does innovate blow our socks off has amazing magic and mechs and art and all that stuff and all those beautiful animations people will buy it like we i agree but do you think we'll lose do you think they'll lose sales if they sit on it too long if they're making people wait five months. I don't think so because no one has any money pre-ordered with the company. And I think everyone else is doing exactly what you expect. And I guess the example I'll use for that is maybe this is just me, but like every Stern kind of feels like the next Stern. Every Jersey Jack kind of feels like the next Jersey Jack. if they really are successful in differentiating in a way that works and builds upon where we're at right now, I think the sales will be there. The big question though is like, how can they make, can they make these games and get them into consumer homes in a timely manner? Because the other big issue with pinball has never been about making an awesome game. It's being able to make that game and getting it to people because if they show us a final Raza at TPF, Robert said, and he's on the record for saying this, people will have games in their homes within two weeks of ordering it. Like, why would you say that following this industry? What if he gets a thousand orders? Can't make 2,000 games in two weeks. Yeah, that would be really difficult to get all those games out in that amount of time. And I think that's what we're seeing now is the major hurdle from starting your own pinball company is going to be the manufacturing. You can have the product. You can have the ideas. But do you have the ability to manufacture? And I forget who said it, but they said, you know, anyone can make a pinball machine. Let's see you make 10. Right. Let me ask you guys a question. Brand new. Robert's got a lot of, you know, energy and passion and a big team involved in this. we said the number one thing to get people excited and to get sales going is theme, right? Isn't it curious that, or what do you think, is retro atomic zombie adventure land? Is that the theme you would launch a company with knowing how important theme is? Yeah, I think it's easy for me to play Monday morning quarterback here. And in hindsight, if I'm starting a pinball company, I'm probably not ideally the direction that I would go with a non-recognizable theme. That being said, if you're going to try to appeal to the pinball purist and somebody that's seen pinball throughout the years and you want to kind of wow them with something different, I can see where maybe the theme wouldn't be as important as the wow factor. and uh you know i don't know if that's going to be with uh something visually stunning or something that's on the play field that's that's going to wow you but i think that's the only way you get away from from not uh you know right benefiting from uh from a license uh now that being said too it's uh you know how many times i've had to explain what raza means to people it's like it's it's uh it's retro right retro atomic zombie adventure land is what i tell them and it still means nothing after you say that well and that's the thing i'm still trying to explain what's going on but uh you know deeper they had kind of revealed that that animation for raza that little teaser animation and where i thought that was really cool and i appreciated what they did there it just didn't make me want to necessarily uh you know follow the pinball machine and you know to its entirety and and uh get ready to save my money to me well save my money for raza and and and look if you're going after the pinball purist raza is zidware and it's not a it's not a deep root title to john papaduke title but i mean and now they're the same entity uh look there's but we do know this j-pop does make beautiful games he does have a crazy imagination so i hope they can figure out how to translate his imagination into a physically working game and if they can do that and the game is like spectacular to stand over. Because there's still something about whenever you would stand over a magic girl, for those who have done that, it pulls you in like no other. Now, flip a magic girl and experience the greatest pain ever. Right. Well, since you bring up magic girl, I mean, that's one of the titles that Deep Root is saying they are going to resurrect and bring back. Chris, are you looking forward to seeing it? Absolutely. Okay, I wasn't sure if your thoughts had shifted because I remember at one point listening to your podcast, you said that if Magic Girl gets re-released by Deep Root and it's close to the way in which it was intended, that you could see yourself being in line for number one. Absolutely. You know, and owning a broken Magic Girl, it's like having a broken child and you send it away to, like, military school. And you're, like, excited to get the child back. You know, that's what it's like. I mean, Magic Girl was broken. It didn't work. And so I'm excited to see how much of it is retained in the new version. Robert said a few things. If you listen to him, I think they're going to change the art package on it. Absolutely. I do remember him saying that. I remember that he had worked on acquiring the rights from Zombie Yeti, who was part of the original art team or did most of the artwork. But then he was going to change, make some changes to Magic Girl herself. Well, I think it was like Magic Girl next door. Right. Like it was supposed to be like urbanized Magic Girl or something. It's a hip hop magical. The problem he faced was simple. When you redesign a game or you have to change stuff, the artwork on that original was so specific to the layout of that game that didn't really work. So if you're going to redo it, he would have to have Zombie Yeti redraw areas of the playfield. But Jeremy Packer wasn't going to do that. He would even if you have the rights for the original, it wouldn't make sense. So, look, I'm excited. But, you know, Magic Girls 2021. I'm excited for the games in 2020. I could care less about 2021 games. So it's a long ways off. Right. So we're waiting on Raza. We are waiting on Fire and Brimstone. Right. We are waiting on Magic Girl. Yeah. Alice in Wonderland. Yeah, there are pictures floating around of like the Alice in Wonderland, Papa Duke's, I think it was made out of like cardboard or something, but it's like the play field. And if you look down on it, it's like one of the most unbelievably ridiculous, and ridiculous meaning good, things, designs that you've ever seen.
    22:16
    You know, I think it was foam core. It wasn't cardboard on that play field. Yeah, it's white foam core. Alice in Wonderland from an art package is the most beautiful pinball machine ever in the history of pinball, without a doubt. Another zombie Yeti package. Zombie Yeti's work in that game is where the value lies. But if you look at the playfield design by John Papaduke, it's another one of these, like, well, how does the ball get from here to there? It's like, I don't know. John needs a new form of gravity to be invented. Yeah, I think what many, including myself, appreciate about John Papaduke is that he's thinking outside of the box. He's always pushing the envelope with his designs. Now, does that always make sense for a design to work? No. From what I've heard, it's like he's ingenuitive, but he absolutely benefits from a team of people behind him to take his ideas and concepts and then make them come to fruition. Yeah, I would say a lot of bit of direction. And Bally Williams back in the day saved John from himself.
    23:16
    And so hopefully it sounds like Deep Root has enough people surrounding him that they can make that work. And I believe that if Robert puts a game out there, it's going to work. I don't think he's going to ship broken games, and I don't think he's going to take pre-order dollars and then not get people anything. So, you know, when they're ready, it'll happen, but not a day sooner, it seems like. Well, all will be revealed. We've got Houston Arcade and Pimple Locksville coming up this weekend. I'm excited. Everyone's excited, yeah. Yeah, I'm also excited. I was excited to go to TPF last year when they had supposedly were going to reveal the ending of the five days at Deep Root. And that was my biggest disappointment. I think going to TPF was arriving there and not having that come to fruition. But it is what it is. Speaking of pinball shows, what about you, Chris? When's the next time you'll be at a pinball show? I know we met at TPF where you won your second Twippy. Too bad that comes to an end this year.
    24:08
    Too bad. It was a good ride, buddy. But TPF, will you be there this year to hang out with everybody? Yeah, that's always the plan. I love TPF. I think out of all the shows, like every pinball show is fun. It's just fun hanging out with all the different pinball fans that we know and drink beers and play pinball for hours and chat about the hobby. But TPF is usually the one I make a trip to. It's not necessarily the closest, but it's just such a great show. And I love what Ed and Kim do with the show. And I've always wanted to support them. So I plan to be there. Well, hopefully you can make it, man. Why don't we go ahead and get into the pinball news? Awesome.
    24:51
    Getting the news from around the industry in this week's Industry Buzz. Hello from Dr John, your special win lit spooky pinball roving correspondent. There's been a lot of talk in Facebook and last week about the Jack Danger Scott Denisey tiff that's going on about the Outlane spinner. And I thought I'd better go to the boss to settle this. Like the principal in the playground, let's see who's right. So, we're here with Charlie, and we've been debating and discussing the spinner in the outlane gate that's been going on on Facebook between Jack Danger and Scott Denisey. Charlie, can you have any enlightenment for us all on what's happening with the spinners in the outlane? Oh, sure, Dr. John. I've recently become aware of this so-called debate between Jack Danger and Scott Denisey. I mean, everybody who's been in pinball more than five minutes knows that Scott Dinizi invented the spinner in the outlane when he was seven years old.
    25:54
    So, anyway, kind of getting to the 11th hour here. Everybody knows Scott's game number two is coming out. But we're doubling down. We're going to put a spinner in both outlanes, and there may be one in the trough.
    26:08
    And is it true there's going to be at least double spinners in the LA outlanes? Well, you know, I don't believe in changing LE versus the standard model. You know, we like the cosmetic stuff on our pretty or memes, you know, for lack of a better term.
    26:23
    But if you really want the extra spinners, we'll send them along and we'll give you a screwdriver. And you can put them wherever you want, really. And we'll just figure out how to wire them in later. There you go. Arguments being settled. Thank you, Charlie, for the update. Yeah, and no problem. And you tell Jack Danger, if he keeps this up, the next time I see him, I'm going to find a step ladder and I'm going to slap him. Excellent stuff. Probably not hard, though, because he's really a big dude. He is a big dude. Thanks, Charlie. Hey, this is Kaz with an American Pinball update. This week, American Pinball released a black and white image of their new mascot, Amy Penn. I chatted with artist Joel DeGuzman, who was recently hired to design the art for the new mascot. There will also be a full color version and a line of merchandise soon. He said that the new character is not related to any new games. Joel has been in pinball and has also worked on art for Pentastic New England. For more info on Amy Penn, check out the thread on Pennside or visit American Pinball's Facebook page. American Pinball also attended DPO Expo in the Netherlands over the weekend and showed off Oktoberfest and Houdini. And also the first Oktoberfest have arrived in Switzerland, as American Pinball is building a larger presence in Europe. So I hope everybody has a great week and has fun playing pinball. For American Pinball, this is Brian Kosner. Hi, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack Update. Some Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory owners have reported cracking of the clear coat from the in-lane wire return ball drop. This is pretty common in Pat Lawler games because a lot of times the ball returns right on that switch slot and it's kind of a weak point in the playfield. It's recommended that if you own a Willy Wonka, you get some switch slot protectors that will go right in that slot and help keep the playfield intact. Jersey Jack is currently beta testing its Wi update program where you able to update your code over Wi They looking for feedback and they would like information on both wired connections and Wi connections If you want to be part of the beta test, go to Pinside and look up the thread JJP Internet Update Beta Test and they'll give you instructions on how you can participate. If you're selected as part of the Wi-Fi group, they will mail you a Wi-Fi dongle to connect to your machine and then be able to send information back to them on how it's working. For Special Unlit Pinball Podcast, this is Ken Rudberg with your Jersey Jack update. Playfield issues continue and holy code update, Batman. Hey guys, Craig here again, your Special Unlit Stern News Correspondent. Well, as we wait for more potential holiday release news, it seems that playfield issues are still lingering at Stern with new in-box owners of various models including Jurassic Park and even going as far back as ACDC. These issues are still revolving around clear coat pooling, cracking, and chipping appearing over time. While most issues seem to be worked out on a case-by-case basis with Stern and affected owners, frustration and uncertainty looms over recent new-in-box or potential new-in-box owners as Stern still has not publicly addressed this issue head-on for months, other than to say there really are no widespread production issues with their playfields on any of their models. However, Pinside users would certainly disagree. What's still not truly known is even the most basic of information, like how many titles were affected, what caused the problem, and how it's now being addressed by Stern now and going forward. Hopefully Andrew Mills, Stern's new Director of Quality Assurance, is addressing the issue as we speak and makes a formal statement in the near future regarding the problem. We shall wait and see. And in other news, don't look now, true believers. Stern Pinball has posted new Batman 66 code V1.05 for the Premium, Limited Edition, and Super Limited Edition models. This code contains system updates and bug fixes and can be downloaded via old-school Ethernet from the Stern website. That's all for this week. For Special When Lit, I'm Craig Bobby. Catch you on the flip side. Always good hearing from the Special When Lit correspondents in exciting times in pinball. when a manufacturer comes up with a new logo. It's Amy Pinn from American Pinball, short for American Pinball. Chris, did you see the artwork? What did you think? I thought it looked great. But before I give you more of my opinion on it, can I ask you a favor? Can I be your Skit Bee correspondent moving forward? Yeah, well, ironically, you have one other person, another podcaster in front of you for that position, but we can talk about it. I should be your Skit Bee, Highway Pinball, and Dutch Pinball correspondent. And it's just like crickets play, and then we go on. No, I think the American Pinball artwork looks great, right? And that's something you don't hear me say very often is that American Pinball artwork looks amazing. But I think it's great because I think they've – they basically have – they've got this new mascot. She's holding the eagle. It's very like Americana. and what gives me hope is I think they realize the importance of artwork and I think this being their new logo is going to be a new artistic direction in which I think they emphasize the art more within the company. Although this artist is not doing their third game is something we just should clarify. Right, exactly. So do we see Guzman take on an additional role after he's provided this logo for marketing purposes for American Pinball? Do we see him on another machine or on machine number four? I know that it's not a simple transition for any artist to go ahead and apply their talents with what they're used to and then put it on a play field. Right. So do we see him implemented within pinball artistically on machines, in your opinion? Yeah. No, totally. And we've heard Christopher Franchi, Zombie Yeti, other artists talk about this. It's an interesting canvas to work with, right? It's not as simple as just making a painting or a comic book. I think his art looks great. I've always said this. There's a lot of amazingly talented artists. Pinball Machine, the art is static, and it's what you live with every day. So it should be amazing, and I think people love games that look incredible. I think American Pinball knows that Game 3's art package needs to be stellar. I just don't think we're going to see. I think it goes beyond the artwork as far as what needs to be stellar on this next release for American Pinball. If you get the artwork figured out, that's fine. but you need to get the, I mean, everything has to be firing on all cylinders. I think this is a very important release for the company. Not that they're going to go away if they don't hit it, but it's going to be a big deal. You know, it's interesting because it's only pinball where you get like two mistakes before you can get it right. Yeah. So true, man. You know, I mean, what other industry can you like stumble two times out of the gate? Right. And these companies that are, that are making games right now, they've had enough time, I think, to study the marketplace to see what you need to do to succeed. And I mean, great artwork has to be on that short list of what we need in a game. But it's not the only thing, as we saw with Cosmic Carnival, right? You just can't make a sexy game with very little pinball going on, or that's not going to work either. Well, it's tough because it's really hard to find a game that has absolutely everything that you're looking for and dreaming of in one single pinball machine. I don't think necessarily that Houdini and Oktoberfest were failures for American pinball. Right. But I do know that Houdini was kind of held back by some tight shots. And then when you go over to Oktoberfest, the art package and the theme in general didn't really call to a lot of people. So there were immediate setbacks that had to be overcome. I just don't think that we really are ever capable of seeing what some will consider to be the perfect pinball machine that has everything in it. It just seems like it's impossible. Right. I don't think there's a perfect pinball machine, though. Yeah, I don't even think it exists in my mind. I mean, when I try to contemplate what would be perfect, I don't know that I can even comprehend it. So I don't know that I can blame anybody for not producing it yet. Right. Well, and what happens is people become fans of manufacturers. Right. So you've got your Stern fans, you've got Jersey Jack fans. There's obviously crossover fans who will consider any pinball machine regardless of who makes it. But it's really hard when you're an American pinball and you have any new game because at the time you're launching your game, there's probably three to four new Stern games that are in box that are available. There's a game from Jersey Jack. The things you can consider as other options are very prevalent right now. And that's why I think it's – you either hit a home run or you're kind of going to whiff in this marketplace. And that's where I think release timing for these titles is so vital and important. You cannot announce a game and then take six months for it to get out the door.
    35:06
    It's just not going to work anymore. I want to see a situation where somebody has a game that's already on the line before we even know anything about it. And then when it's announced, it's ready to ship. I mean, it's almost to the point where you can't reveal a game and wait two weeks regardless of what manufacturer that you are. Because there's something in the pipeline. I mean, Stern's got games coming out. It seems like every month and a half there's a new release. So you cannot take the chance of revealing without shipping. Well, if you wait six months, I mean, here, Starman's going to release two, if not three games in the same time frame. So if someone doesn't like two of the themes or whatever, the third one, you know, out of three, someone's going to find something they like while they're waiting for another game. I think maybe the only variable that could allow you to delay an actual ship date upon release is the super license. And if you have something that everybody or the majority of pinball has been waiting for a long time, for instance, if you had a Back to the Future or a Jaws or something to that nature, then maybe you're granted some extended patience. And it's hard for the manufacturers not to announce information because if you don't do it on a semi-regular basis, then you become disinteresting as a company. But you better have a license that's, I mean, here, I think if we were to, for example, have the Big Lebowski's and say, hey, listen, we're making three a week until we don't have any more orders. I think people would put, you know, well, buy these things. I don't think that, yeah, I mean, I think that's a solid game. The artwork was awesome and the features in that were awesome. Now, Chris, you still have your Big Lebowski, correct? I still do, even though I'm losing members of my podcast because people think I sold it. It's still in a box. It's at Cointaker as we speak. Now, Chris, I mean, is the Big Lebowski as a pinball machine, is that still something that you're considering as an exciting purchase, as an exciting pinball machine? I know it was something that you had kind of made up your mind that you wanted to acquire if the opportunity had presented itself, and it did. But after everything's said and done, is it still what you want? No, my excitement is not really there anymore. And a lot of it has just been following the company and Barry's commentary. and just you know the more you hear from people who got burned and the more you hear about their business plan to try and make those people whole i don't know how you can absorb all that and walk away feeling good uh because i just don't have faith that uh they're going to make all those people whole because i just don't if you run the numbers it just doesn't make any sense uh and and i'll say this it's just not fun owning a game that other people uh got burned on and and got screwed over with. Now, that being said, the hypocrite went and bought one, which is myself, because I just knew they were coming out. And you get caught up in the moment of, oh my God, they're going to be available again and I can get one for $12,500. Remember when that was happening, people were spending almost $20,000 on one if you had one new in box at that point. So it seemed like a no-brainer just from a collectible standpoint. But as I've said on my show and I'm staying true to this. I'm not flipping that game for money. I would put it in my apartment, but I think where I'm at right now is I've got it. I know it's not going to lose any value. So it's like kind of having money under the mattress. I do want to see, because I have very limited room, what's next from Stern Pinball, because I think it is Stranger Things. I really do. Cool. So Stranger Things is your guess for next? Yeah. I think I was set up with Karate Kid. I think it is Stranger Things. all the karate kid that's right i've heard from so many people uh i think that is next from brian eddie and and that's where i'm at when you have limited space can i cut you off for just a second yeah all i'm saying is if if stranger things were to be next and brian eddie would be next in line i mean those are two things that i'm it's like the perfect storm the license is a dream license for me and i've been excited about brian eddie since he went back to stern and with that guy working on what would be again uh something that i've spoken on my podcast as a dream theme of mine it would be unbelievable. I've not been in pinball where I saw a theme that was released on a machine that I had considered a dream theme. So in a lot of ways, it would kind of... All right. Let me... Yeah. Just to close the loop on Lebowski, then I want to talk stranger things because I know you love it. Basically, if I only have room for a pinball machine or two to put Lebowski in here, yeah, I've been thinking about it. But what really makes me nervous is support, getting spare parts, actually enjoy flipping it because I'd be nervous if something breaks, that's it. Like I'm done. So I'm just keeping it where it's at. Now, Stranger Things is also, I don't know if it's a dream theme for me. I love the show so much. I'm just curious. Well, and it lends itself well to a modern day approach on 80s nostalgia. And I know that's kind of what you believe is the niche market. But here's my question for you guys. And I'm curious what you both think. Do you think Stern Pinball will get enough of that license and the assets that really bring the nostalgia to life, everything from Eggo waffles to all the songs that are in it. Like, how can you do season three's finale without never-ending story and getting the rights to that song? So do you think Stern will actually invest in getting what we need to make the dreamers who love it satisfied?
    40:29
    Yeah, I think if there's a manufacturer that has Stranger Things as a license, it would be impossible to encompass everything that goes with that license. It wouldn't make any sense financially. You'd have to make an effort to focus on what the major elements are in the game. And music would play a big role in that, absolutely. You would have to figure out a way to have a great implementation of the upside down. It doesn't necessarily need to be a lower play field, but you'd have to have call outs. And regarding the call outs, I mean, like these kids are still young. I don't know that they're considered superstars. I don't know that they command high dollars for voice work in a pinball machine. And I'll tell you what, I would be perfectly happy with Stranger Things season one as being the main focus of that machine and not worrying about trying to cross over into other seasons. Maybe that would simplify the process. And I guess what I'm most nervous about with the license, if it ever comes out and it's a pinball machine and it's bad, I'll it'll just be horrible, man. Like, I'll never be able to forgive myself. I will have missed my chance for my grail pin. now you know how now you know how star wars fans feel when they see the pin that stern put out yeah you're not a big fan of the star wars pinball machine i'm i love star wars the movie is like nothing else no i mean come on i mean we won't go down that road but i make that's but that's the big gamble is when you do a dream theme if you don't do it justice for the people who love that theme even though it's a good pinball game it you know and waka went through this a little bit, right? We saw that feedback. If you don't give the fan base, the diehard fans, enough of what they want, it doesn't matter if it's a great pinball machine. You might disappoint them. Bill, what do you think? I think that they're going to put everything they could in, but I think there are certain limitations, especially with the music. I don't see how they nailed down all those rights.
    42:16
    I think I'd be more happy with what Ken said, just trying to focus on season one. Do you think they'll get Clips from do you think they get clips from the show I think you have a better chance of that than something like a movie The funny thing is if Stranger Things ever comes out and it a pinball machine I be almost content if the artwork looked nice and it played the theme song during a tracked mode. I'd be 50% complete. It could only go up from there. So you guys are both nervous like you never want to meet your heroes just in case.
    42:49
    That's literally what you guys are going through. I'm not totally into Stranger Things. I haven't seen all of them. So my expectations are low. So just even a decent game, I'm going to be happy. You know, and as we consider what I call like a super license, and we've mentioned Harry Potter, if you don't appeal to the majority of the fan base with that release, then it's like a big letdown. But how do you appeal to that entire fan base? And what direction would you take that pinball machine? Because ultimately what's going to happen is you're going to let somebody down. So it's like regardless of your efforts, the fan base is so passionate and so big that you're not going to appeal to everybody, and you're ultimately going to let a large amount of people down. Maybe not the majority, but – Right. Well, you know what game was always interesting to look at was Pirates of the Caribbean, right? Because a phenomenal pinball machine on a pinball level, right? No one would disagree with that. I think the game gets almost nine-point-something rating. it's one of the best pinball machines from a pinball standpoint but if you love pirates of the caribbean films and you love jack sparrow and you love that humor the game comes up humongously short for you so and i and i always we always have this debate like does it need to succeed on a pinball level or a theme level and the greatest games of all time they succeed on both lord of the rings is a great example of that how do you mean give me an example of what you're I mean, Lord of the Rings without – yeah, without an LCD, I don't – you can't walk away from the Lord of the Rings pinball experience without feeling like it immersed you in the moments of those movies that you love and it's all there. And above and beyond that, it emotionally pulls you into like going into battle. Like when that to war multiball starts, it is like you're there. And all the drama and anxiety and stress and like joy of the films, it's translated through pinball. And to me, that is what pinball is supposed to do for a theme. It is supposed to translate what you love and pay homage to what you love as closely as it can to that theme. And when games start to stray away from what we love, that's where I have issues or that's where I think they fall short. Sure. And for me, and I've talked about this on Special One Lit. But for me, it's like it's the overall pinball experience. After I play a few games on a machine, I want to have something that makes me want to come back because something captivated me about the experience of playing. And for me, like a perfect example of that is Willy Wonka. It wasn't a theme that I was real passionate about. I didn't really care about Willy Wonka in general. But after playing the game and walking away from it, it was one of the best games that I ever shot. And it made me want to come back and play it again. I loved it. Now, if I was more personally invested in the theme, could I have dissected it and figured out a different way where it could have been integrated into the pinball machine for my liking? Yeah, I mean, absolutely I can. But that wasn't important to me at the time, and again, it was like the pinball experience.
    45:49
    Well, and it's almost – ironically, it's almost easier to get – it's almost easier to enjoy it when you're not as much of a diehard fan of the movie as some people are. That's a really good point, man. Who is that? That's very interesting. Is it Chris the Pinturn? You dressed up like Willy Wonka at TPF? Yes. He didn't buy one because he's a huge fan and he's like, it's just a miss because it doesn't capture the movie the way I remember it. But that doesn't mean it's not a great pinball machine on a pinball level. Right. And again, it's that balance. And look, it's all subjective. Some people see it one way. Someone sees it the other way. It's you have to play it. And if it does enough for you and you enjoy it, then buy it. You know, I just got mine down in the basement Saturday. I bought a standard one. Willy Wonka, right. And playing that in my own home for the first time, I got like, you know, a handful of games on it. But I mean, that game just immerses you. You know, I love that game. Were you a real big fan of Wonka when you were growing up? Or was it a movie that you really looked forward to watching too, even as an adult? I was mellow on it. I wasn't in love. I love Wizard of Oz more, and I love that game. That's why I got one, okay. But Willy Wonka, I think it's a great game. It's a great point that Chris makes. It's a lot easier for somebody to enjoy a theme that they're not heavily invested in. Because if you're invested in the theme, it's easier for you to become critical on the execution. Well, here, so let me throw you this one, Chris. Baywatch. Theme sucks. Have you ever jumped on one? Yeah. And Baywatch has so much going on in it, and it's a fun pin to flip.
    47:20
    As a theme, yeah, I mean, it's Baywatch. I mean, it's campy. It's corny. But, you know, I wouldn't say anyone has, like, seen and memorized every episode of that show. But, yeah, it's a Hasselhoff experience. Well, you walk up to that game thinking, not expecting a whole lot, and you start playing it. And, you know, with the shots, with the tower, I think it brings more than you. It's almost like if you would have rethemed it to just about anything else, it would have performed a lot better and would be recognized as a more popular machine. I think it would probably have done better if it was even Spies Like Us, the 80s movie now. So it's like Johnny Mnemonic in the Matrix, right? When they reskin that pin to become the Matrix, all of a sudden, the game took on a whole new meaning for people, right? And I think the last one, they made like five of them sold for $30,000. I'm still kicking myself. I had a chance to buy one for the wholesale price of $20,000 about four years ago. So in your opinion, do you think that we see a Matrix pinball machine? Is it still a theme that's worthy enough for public consumption? Does it command? Absolutely. We remember George Gomez said he had the opportunity to make The Matrix instead of Lord of the Rings back in the day. But here's the issue now with The Matrix. Because there's another movie coming out, I think the movie studio is going to want that fourth film to be part of whatever happens around the franchise from a marketing standpoint. So I think we might have to wait a while. And if I did do a Matrix movie, I would only do the first movie. So I'm going to double up this question here. uh who would you like to see it be made by the pinball machine look i i know he doesn't love me but as it stands right now if you gave me any one of my dream themes looking at who's making pinball machines right now i would always want jersey jack to make the game i i just think they go the extra mile um when it comes to these machines so if stern increased their bomb and actually put more in absolutely stern but right now jersey jack would would be the company i would want to make my dream theme i mean imagine jack making star wars compared to what we got well you know honestly i'm just thinking about the letters running down the screen on a big giant uh jjp screen and that seems pretty awesome yeah jack you know i think jersey jack again no one listens to my marketing advice but if i'm sitting with them i think they have to get out of the themes that are like PG rated. And I think they have to start making themes that have a little bit more of an adult appeal. It's going to be interesting to see how they handle Guns N' Roses, which is a more adult hard rock band. I mean, you know, are they going to have the It's So Easy in it and some of those lyrics? I don't know. What about you guys? If you had your dream theme manufacturer, who would you hand it to? Yes, an interesting question, because I think Stern Pinball, for me, makes the most approachable games and the most fun games from the first plunge. Like you can just kind of get enveloped and having a good time. Jersey Jack pinball, they put a lot into their games and they have such a deep rule set with code. So for me, I think it would have to be like a hybrid of the two companies for me to come up with what I would consider like a dream release. So, all right. So one dream team that I would love to would be Getaway 3. And I'd like to see Stern make the X. I think they nailed it. And not just because of Steve Ritchie, but how the games flow and, you know, what they put in. But one that I kind of thought about the other night when I was sitting there holding my son, National Treasure made by Jersey Jack would actually be pretty stellar, I think. The Nicolas Cage movie?
    50:56
    Yeah. Out of all the movies that are out there, Bill, that's where you land. Hey, listen, man, you know, I don't give you crap about your choices. You know, Big Trouble in Little China, I don't give you crap about your choices. What about The Rock? I'd have our green beans. Wouldn't the rock be better? The rock would be another good one. Or face-off. Yeah. That would be another cool one. Hey, so what do you think, Chris? We've had you here on Special Unlit for about an hour. I know you've got some dinner plans with your wife, Brenda. Is there anything else you wanted to touch on before we let you skedaddle? No, I just want to thank you guys for having me on the show. You know that I've always been a big fan of your show. and you know I think you guys bring a very positive and optimistic and and fresh take on the hobby and you know I just appreciate you taking the time to talk to me and it feels good to be invited on his show I will say it gets lonely it gets lonely in in Canadian pinball podcast land because it seems like everyone talks about me but no one will ever talk with me and so I just appreciate you guys having me on to have a chat about pinball yeah Chris absolutely I remember I'd been listening to your show for almost two years. I wasn't there in the beginning of the inception because I didn't even realize that pinball podcasts even existed. The thing with Canadian Pinball Podcast is when I'm listening, I don't always agree with what you're saying and your beliefs. And sometimes I don't agree with the way that you, you know, your delivery methods. But you know what? That's what makes you you. And I appreciate you for it. It's very apparent to me that you want to be as truthful as possible with your listeners and your listener base and with yourself. And I can appreciate that as well. I mean, listen, man, you're a very polarizing person in pinball, a very polarizing person in the pinball media. And where you tend to, in my opinion, you kind of wear your feelings on your on your sleeve. But that doesn't necessarily mean it's a weakness. It can be also used as a strength. I wanted to just thank you for coming on the show and talking pinball with us. And if you want to come back on and talk some pinball down the road, we'd be happy to have you back on special one lit. Yeah, and we're going to – I want Ken and Bill, I want you guys to come on the show as well. And I'll just say this. For all of us out there who do pinball podcasts and streams and whatnot, we're not making money doing this stuff, right? I mean we're doing it for the entertainment of people out there. Nobody makes anyone listen or tune in to any of it. And I know you guys spend a lot of time – and your stream and your Twitch stream is phenomenal. I mean it's so much fun to watch that. Thanks, man. And for those of you, you know, I keep sending people there from my show and I do. I think it's fun to watch pinball, talk about pinball and to create content that's entertaining. And that's why we're doing it. It's fun. I mean, this is always fun to spend an hour not thinking about the stresses of the real world and to just geek out on pinball. So, yeah, let's keep it going. Yeah, I think it's important to recognize like this new wave of pinball content and media. And media is a difficult word because I'm not a professional journalist by any means, but I am a pinball enthusiast, and I do like talking pinball, and I do like providing additional content for pinball, and that's always fun for me. And sometimes it rubs somebody the wrong way or I don't say the right thing, but at the end of the day, as long as I'm able to kind of put my head on the pillow and sleep the sleep of the just, then I'm okay with it. Chris, I'm going to jump in here and say this. you know you are you you you have uh touched on a lot of subjects which might have been controversial but you've always spoken from your heart what you know whether that was the right move at the time or the wrong move you're always honest with yourself and that i can appreciate no no but you know what i mean you're just true to yourself man and hopefully uh you know you you put your head down at night not worry about a damn thing yeah i think you know i i think that i think what's hard for people sometimes is to separate the personalities that we have on that we do on our shows and the show content from the fact that, you know, there's 24 hours in a day. And so we do shows about pinball. But we also have families, we have jobs, we have other responsibilities. And this is an outlet for all of us, right, just to have some fun with. And, and so I think sometimes people assume that they know everything about us. And then this goes for your listeners, too, right? It's because when you listen to someone for hours, you feel like you know them intimately. And people do know us, but there's so much more to all of our personalities in our lives. And all I ask is that we treat each other with respect. And until someone's ripping you off, I think everyone deserves respect in the pinball world. It's funny because you talk about doing this as an escape and for fun. And, you know, The unfortunate side of things is that there are times where this becomes the major point of stress in my life. And it's with the people and peers and that sort of thing. And when that happens, it's never fun. But we always strive forward and we plan on going for a while. Absolutely. But Chris, congratulations on over three years and over 400 episodes of Canada's Pinball Podcast. If you don't mind, can you tell our listeners, if they don't know, how they can get a hold of you and how they can listen to the show? Yeah, we're on Canada's Pinball Podcast. It's on SoundCloud and iTunes.
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    And so just Google Canada's Pinball Podcast, and that should come up. My email is canadapinball at gmail.com. Happy to converse with anyone via email. And then we're on Facebook as well if you search for Canada's Pinball Podcast. Well, again, it was great having you on. We do appreciate it. For Chris Kalouris and Bill Webb, I am Ken Cromwell. Don't forget to take some time out of your day and play some pinball. So long, everybody.
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    you