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DPP #81 "Mike Barnard interview! Venom final review!"

Don's Pinball Podcast (regular feed)·podcast_episode·45m 16s·analyzed·Nov 10, 2023
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claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Don reviews Venom as B-tier after 200 plays; interviews Rush artist Mike Barnard on pinball art process.

Summary

Don's Pinball Podcast episode 81 features a comprehensive review of Stern's Venom pinball machine after 200 plays, followed by an interview with artist Mike Barnard who created the art for Rush pinball. Don rates Venom a solid B-tier game (5.9/10), praising its character-based mechanics and Premium edition features while criticizing incomplete code, single-flipper design, and casual player accessibility issues. The interview covers Barnard's background in rock band art, his selection process for the Rush project, and the collaborative art design workflow with Stern's art director Greg.

Key Claims

  • Venom Premium has grown on Don after 200 games and is now a solid B-tier game rated 5.9/10

    high confidence · Don's extended review segment, direct statements: 'I think Venom is really uh you know kind of warmed up to me' and 'It's a solid B-tier game' and '5.9. It's above average.'

  • The game is missing a true wizard mode and only builds up to defeating Null

    high confidence · Don's review: 'It's still missing some things in the code. Like, there's not really, like, any kind of, like, true wizard mode. It's really just kind of build up to the null.'

  • Fast lock system animations cause delays and prevent hurry-up timers from pausing, creating frustration

    high confidence · Don's detailed complaint: 'the timer is counting down on the hurry up. So when you finally do get the ball back, you have one maybe time for two shots, and then it's timed out'

  • Casual players without login accounts struggle significantly because they must level up quickly during a single game

    high confidence · Don's analysis: 'if you didn't log in and you're just a casual person putting your dollar in there... Otherwise, you really have to be on your game and blowing this thing up to be able to get to level 40'

  • Gwen is the easiest character to play because the center ramp is in open position

    high confidence · Don's gameplay observation: 'Gwen, for sure for me, is the easiest character to play with. And the reason is because that center tilting ramp is in the open position.'

  • Mike Barnard initially reached out to Stern years prior with no response, then reconnected and was selected for a confidential 'test' for Rush

    high confidence · Barnard interview: 'I actually reached out to them. I think I had reached out to them a few years prior to that. I never really heard anything back... I just happened to reach out to them right when they were looking for artists'

  • Barnard was asked to submit a test design for the Rush project under NDA, and he painted the entire back glass rather than just a sample area

    high confidence · Barnard interview: 'he said, okay, uh, maybe paint it, paint it up a little bit... I work really fast so once I jumped on it I ended up just painting the entire thing'

Notable Quotes

  • “It's a solid B-tier game. You know, it's a fun game for me right now. I think I like this game a lot better at its level of development than I liked Bond.”

    Don @ ~19:00 — Core thesis of Don's review; positions Venom favorably relative to previous Stern releases despite mid-tier rating

  • “5.9. It's above average. You know, it's ahead of strange science. It's better than Bonebusters. It's not medieval madness, so that's kind of where it falls in there.”

    Don @ ~20:00 — Quantifies the B-tier assessment by benchmarking against classic and recent Stern games

  • “So maybe that will be something that will be added in code... I'm like, tapping my hand on the cabinet, like, come on, ball. You're supposed to be a fast lock system. Let's speed it up.”

    Don @ ~25:30 — Identifies specific code optimization opportunity; shows frustration with fast lock animation delays

  • “by the time you get up to level 10... I'm on ball 3 And then I'm probably going to drain And not even make it that far... it seems like it's ten shots to get through each of the two phases. And, you know, that seems a little overbearing.”

    Don @ ~30:45 — Articulates key balance concern: difficulty curve punishes casual/non-logged-in players

  • “I think my style lends itself, you know, to that really well. So it's just something I want to kind of get on board with. I mean, basically, you know, these things are designed to be commercial machines. They're supposed to be eye-catching.”

    Mike Barnard @ ~43:30 — Explains Barnard's artistic philosophy and how concert poster/band art translates to pinball cabinet design

  • “he said, you know, you sign a nondisclosure. and then we'll tell you what the project is and then you basically submit what you would do for this project if it were given to you.”

    Mike Barnard @ ~38:45 — Reveals Stern's formal 'test' process for vetting new artist talent on confidential projects

  • “I work really fast so once I jumped on it I ended up just painting the entire thing... I got it done weeks early”

Entities

DonpersonMike BarnardpersonGregpersonMike FordpersonStern PinballcompanyVenomgameRushgame

Signals

  • ?

    code_update: Venom lacks a true wizard mode and has incomplete boss callouts for Null and Grendel; Don expects future code updates to address these gaps

    high · Don: 'It's still missing some things in the code. Like, there's not really, like, any kind of, like, true wizard mode' and 'I would like to see call-outs from Null... when you're playing him, he's completely mute and silent'

  • ?

    product_concern: Fast lock system animations delay ball return and prevent hurry-up timers from pausing, causing player frustration and reducing effective gameplay flow

    high · Don: 'the timer is counting down on the hurry up. So when you finally do get the ball back, you have one maybe time for two shots, and then it's timed out'

  • ?

    gameplay_signal: Casual/non-logged-in players struggle with difficulty curve; must reach level 10+ during a single game to fight bosses but arrive severely under-leveled for meaningful challenge

    high · Don: 'if you didn't log in and you're just a casual person putting your dollar in there... By the time I do that, I'm on ball 3 And then I'm probably going to drain'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Venom uses character selection to alter playfield layout and difficulty scaling; each character has distinct mini-mode structures and progression mechanics

    high · Don: 'I love the aspect of the four characters actually being somewhat meaningful as far as changing the layout of the game' and detailed analysis of Gwen's easier center ramp positioning

  • ?

    personnel_signal: Stern Pinball conducts formal NDA-based 'test' submissions to vet new artists; Mike Barnard was selected through this process for Rush after prior unanswered outreach

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.136

0:00
today coming back at you like leah patcher it's friday and it's don's pinball podcast episode number 81 and i have an action-packed fun episode this is a special one that's coming for everybody first off i figured it was time to review stern pinball's venom the latest release that they have well until we get a blood red kiss right following that i also have an interview that's going to drop with mr michael barnard he is a stern artist that worked on the rush pinball machine uh we got a whole interview we get into the all the nuance of creating pinball art and what that process is like it is hype it's gonna be awesome so once you get in here settle in and listen to my dulcet tones let's bring it in here buddy boom well just i figured today was the time that i should just talk about venom pinball let's do an actual review of it not a first impressions not a reaction video but like I've put 200 games through this thing sitting behind me, you know, so what am I thinking? The short of it is this game's actually grown on me a bit. Now, I've got a Venom Premium, okay, so this review will be based on Venom Premium. The pro, you can miss me with that. You know, so as I've been playing this game, you know, it's the one that's got the, you know, you log in, you level up your character, and then as you go through the different modes, the modes are easier the higher level you are. The higher level you are, the longer it took to get there, and, you know, the longer your total game global play time will be until you beat the final boss, right? You know, it's still missing some things in the code. Like, there's not really, like, any kind of, like, true wizard mode. It's really just kind of build up to the null. And I think that will come in time. So, you know, I just kind of want to do this review more talking about, you know, the features of the layout and how I feel about them. And I want to talk about the doppelganger mech. this is the guy that swings off in that little spring-loaded swing arm, and he's got his dangly bits underneath. And I've been having fun with that little character. Okay, I do enjoy it. So here's the thing. I had the glass off because I just did all the powder coat, put the armor back on and everything, and as I was testing it, I was thinking I never really played around with this very much and really understood the nuance of what exactly is going on with the doppelganger. As you hit the stand-up targets, you clear enough of them, and then he swings out, and then you've got a limited amount of time to hit his little dangly targets. There's three light-up inserts underneath each of the three dangles. The first time he comes out, you just have to hit one of them, and then you complete it. And then you go around and hit stand-up targets. He pops out again, and then there's two to hit. And then the third time, it seems like it randomly jumps around, and you have to hit them all. But then what happens when all three of them hit? So I just sat there, and I just mashed with my fingers on the stand-up targets until he flipped out. I dangled his danglies with my fingers, did that three times, filled them up, and then this insert lit on the scoop. And then that started this rampage mode, which I hadn't even got into before. Really kind of a fun mode. All the shots light up blue, and you have a limited amount of time to hit a bunch of these shots to build up a score multiplier or a score value. And then you go into this rampage mode where Doppelganger's out. It's kind of just like open rain on him. Every insert's lit on him. Just hit his dangles as many times as you can for this period of time, and you'll be awarded however many points you built that point value up to. So that was kind of fun. I noticed once he flipped out and we were in that final mode, I just started playing with the glass off with the flippers, throwing balls up there, and then realized that I had about 2 billion points.

  • Barnard received the call confirming the Rush project on his birthday in August 2020

    high confidence · Barnard interview: 'it was actually on my birthday in August of 2020 I got the phone call from him'

  • The Venom Premium and LE versions include physical toys and mechanisms not present on the Pro, such as the flapping ramp and doppelganger swing arm

    high confidence · Don's review: 'And I don't even know, like, how you really even do a doppelganger mode on the Pro because there's no physical mechanism at all... there's not even a character or a plastic.'

  • Don is executing a 'Stern 4' rotation experiment to own new Stern games for ~3-4 months each, selling them to fund the next purchase

    high confidence · Don's detailed explanation: 'The idea being, what if there was a way that I could just have a rotating brand new Stern game through my game room for the next year?' and 'two games in now with Venom' and 'I'm going to sell Venom. I'm going to sell Foo Fighters. And I'm going to move on to whatever Stern has next.'

    • Mike Barnard @ ~42:00 — Demonstrates Barnard's work ethic and speed; exceeded expectations on the Rush test submission

  • “It was a blast it was a huge deal to me it was a lot of fun and uh it's it's awesome seeing the reactions to it.”

    Mike Barnard @ ~36:00 — Shows genuine enthusiasm for the Rush project and community reception

  • “I'm going to stick to the original plan that everybody said was not going to work. And I'm going to get ready to sell Venom. I'm going to sell Foo Fighters. And I'm going to move on to whatever Stern has next.”

    Don @ ~32:15 — Shows commitment to rotation strategy despite skepticism; signals Venom's role as temporary acquisition

  • “It's covered in art blades. It's got a shooter rod. It's got everything you would want, shaker, knocker. The only thing you would have to do is, like, a speaker upgrade, if you want, or some HD glass. Otherwise, you know, it's ready to go.”

    Don @ ~34:00 — Describes fully modded Venom ready for sale; indicates high value-add from customizations

    • Foo Fighters
    game
    Blood Red Kissgame
    Nullgame_feature
    Grendelgame_feature
    Doppelgängergame_feature
    Garbage Pail Kidsproduct
    Skid Rowband
    Motley Crueband
    Flip Modscompany
    Pinsideplatform
    Spike 2platform
    IFPAorganization
    Multimorphic P3platform

    high · Barnard: 'you sign a nondisclosure. and then we'll tell you what the project is and then you basically submit what you would do for this project if it were given to you'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stern develops multiple distinct art concepts for Pro/Premium/LE variants; final tier assignments may occur during development rather than being predetermined

    high · Barnard: 'I don't think they really know right out of the gate. I think you just try and come up with three solid pieces. and then I think as we're working on them, they kind of decide'

  • ?

    collector_signal: Don's 'Stern 4' experiment targets minimal holding loss (~$500 per game, $200/month) through rapid rotation; implies expected depreciation cycle and fungible market for recent Stern releases

    high · Don: 'My hope was that maybe I would take a $500 loss on each game after having it for three or four months. Maybe $2,000 averaged over a year. Which comes out to around $200 a month'

  • ?

    product_launch: Blood Red Kiss is positioned as Stern's next release after Venom; timeline not specified

    medium · Don: 'well until we get a blood red kiss right following that'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Venom Premium/LE uses fast lock system for ball retention; differs from classic wire-form locks; creates trade-offs between speed and animation presentation

    high · Don: 'I didn't talk about the fast lock system I do like it... this one doesn't do that, it's a little bit quicker how am I going to feel about that? I've adjusted to it just fine'

  • ?

    design_innovation: Doppelgänger swing arm with multi-stage targeting creates depth and progression; progressive hit requirements (1, 2, 3) build engagement; unlocks secondary rampage mode

    high · Don detailed walkthrough of doppelgänger mechanics; legitimate achievement of rampage mode after 200+ plays demonstrates sustained engagement

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Don's initial skepticism about Venom (2023, viewed as generic Marvel, insert hunt) shifted positively after 200 plays and deeper rule understanding; now rates it solid B-tier

    high · Don: 'The short of it is this game's actually grown on me a bit' and 'as I've been playing it and I learned where the shots are on the flippers and I understand the rules now... you know it's fun for me'

    • 3:27
    So I wasn't logged in, so it didn't affect my Insider Connected score or anything. I went ahead and canceled out of that game, so it didn't register as a high score or anything. But that was fun. That was the first time I had done that was just cheating with my fingers. And then later on, like two games later, I'm not kidding at all, I actually legitimately got to that mode on my own, glass on, no cheating. So that was pretty amazing. I put up a half-billy score. It was fun.
    3:54
    What had happened is I actually ended up stacking, and I'll go into this now. I ended up stacking the Mayhem multiball. This is the one that you can build up. It starts automatically at a multiball of two, or you can cancel that with the action button and keep locking balls all the way up to six. So I got it up to four. I thought, four is enough. Let's go ahead and play that. And then one thing I like about this is as you're playing, you hit that carnage captive ball, and then you can hit the center wrap to start a carnage multi-ball. Well, as I was in the mayhem multi-ball, I also started the carnage multi-ball. They stacked, and then, you know, doppelganger kept flipping out. And then with all these balls running around, I mean, you can't hit any shots when there's four or five balls in the play field because there's just this mayhem. But you can hit stand-up targets pretty well. So that's how I was able to get through and get the doppelganger up, and then hitting his danglies wasn't a problem with balls everywhere. Tons of balls, tons of danglies, no fingers were needed. And then actually got to the mayhem modes. That was fun. It was fun. So I'm enjoying that. I love the aspect of the four characters actually being somewhat meaningful as far as changing the layout of the game. Now that I've played it a lot, I've got 200 games through this, like I can appreciate that nuance now. Gwen, for sure for me, is the easiest character to play with. And the reason is because that center tilting ramp is in the open position. So in that case, the horseshoe plays like a true horseshoe just like the pro does. The nice thing about that is if you don't get a shot that's perfectly on that's going to do the whole horseshoe, it registers just by crossing that opto at the front. So even a weak shot that just approaches and then rolls away will trigger that, and that is one of the ways that you finish her mini modes. It's also, if you select the skill shot at the beginning to glide a mini mode on that hurry up, that's an easy way to get it. you can actually kind of hit it both ways. If you hit the horseshoe backwards, the pin will sometimes pop up, the ball will bounce back, the pin drops, and then as it crosses the opto, it'll trigger it that way. So if you want to get in and get used to playing this game, maybe start with Gwen, and that'll be a way that you can actually get the modes a little easier and kind of get through the game faster.
    6:00
    So that was fun. I do like the little flap on the right, too, that changes the direction that the ball goes. It's that second shot from the right, not the orbit, but the one next to it. You know, that's fun, and none of that is on the Pro. And so I don't even know, like, how you really even do a doppelganger mode on the Pro because there's no physical mechanism at all. There's not even a character or a plastic. I actually just have to shoot, you know, lit inserts. It just becomes an insert hunt. So my first impressions from this game were that it was essentially, you know, light-up inserts, everything's at the back of the play field. This could have been a P3 module. What the heck? as I've been playing it and I learned where the shots are on the flippers and I understand the rules now um you know it's fun for me it's a fun game to to come down and put like four or five games through you know because sometimes you're playing for points to try to level up sometimes you're playing to try to get through those boss battles so I think Venom is really uh you know kind of warmed up to me I mean it's only two flippers all the shots are in the back but at least on the premium and le um the extra mechanisms and the extra little modes the the the multi-ball modes the mayhem mode uh there's a toxic team up i'm still not sure exactly how i trigger that it just shows up if i'm playing well um and then you know it's fun to play through the bosses uh you know i'm getting through grendel easier now i've beaten all three times i've unlocked the extra characters um one thing when you do get to the extra characters if anybody hasn't played them uh instead of doing three mini modes to get to a buttoned boss or a next level you actually play six, and when you do that, you've finished two parallel columns on that insert grid, and then there's perks that are within there. So if you do pick the other characters, they do have their own callouts and things. It is a little bit harder because you have to do six mini modes before you get to a boss, but when you do, you've unlocked those perks, too. So it's almost like doing two characters at once. Kind of fun. Adds some more nuance to the game. The code's still not at 1.0. So, I mean, I was trying to think, like, do I want to do a letter grade? Do I want to do a number grade? I mean, letter grade, you know, this isn't Godzilla. It's not Iron Maiden. You know, it wouldn't be an S-tier game. I don't know if I will quite make the cutoff for A-tier game. It's a solid B-tier game. You know, it's a fun game for me right now. I think I like this game a lot better at its level of development than I liked Bond. So, yeah, yeah, I'm good with, like, a higher B for Venom. I think it's a fun release. If I was given a numerical score of 0 through 10, I think, you know, 5.9. It's above average. You know, it's ahead of strange science. It's better than Bonebusters. It's not medieval madness, so that's kind of where it falls in there.
    8:34
    I like the music. I like the sounds. I like that the different characters have some nuance, and I like that there was unlockable characters.
    8:40
    Kind of like a watershed game because of how the code is introduced in here. Where I see this game going forward, if there is this rumored Venom version of Ghost Rider that's going to be in the game, maybe unlocked with a topper, maybe not, But, you know, I would like to see call-outs from Null. I mean, you've got this big, bad boss who's not explained at all during the gameplay, and when you're playing him, he's completely mute and silent. I think there was, like, one call-out I heard that I couldn't attribute to anybody else that may be Null, but I would like to have some, you know, taunting or something. Grendel? Does Grendel talk at all, or is Grendel just a big monster? You know, so I think there's room for more call-outs. I think there's room for some more modes. I don't know if there can be any kind of wizard mode. I would like to see some maybe hidden modes that unlock or something, or like a disco mode or something, something. So I think Venom might be a game that actually does have some legs later in the code. I mean, not too dissimilar from Bond. And so, you know, that's kind of where I'm at. Now, I've been having fun doing a lot of mods with Venom. The first thing I thought of off the bat when I saw that tower with the bell in it is a Taco Bell, right? So, you know, I talked to Mike Ford over at Flip Mods. We collaborated, and he graciously put my idea into reality, so I have a Taco Bell tower that's up there now. I added a spinner to the game. I think it adds some kinetic satisfaction. It's not currently integrated into anything because I would have to do some plastic modifications to fit a micro switch in there or an opto, but it could easily be wired to something. I just didn't want to make any permanent modifications. I've added a little doodads here and there. I, like everybody else, didn't like the exposed boards on the fast lock system. Uh, so, uh, Mike Ford also made some, uh, some 3d printed, uh, coverings that go over that. So, you know, pick them up. I think they're pretty cheap, 15 bucks or, you know, design your own or something, but you know, fun little mod to put in there. Uh, the flipper toppers are in there. I completed the whole, uh, art package look on the inside. I think that really brings the game together. And I just got my illusion midnight powder court, powder coat, speaker panel, coin door, side armor. There's a shooter rod, a mounting plate. the game is kicking and firing on all cylinders now and fun game I was just thinking I didn't talk about the fast lock system I do like it I've adjusted to it doesn't really surprise me anymore at first I thought I like to watch balls roll down the wire forms this one doesn't do that, it's a little bit quicker how am I going to feel about that? I've adjusted to it just fine I don find it missing on other games that don have it and it doesn shock me as something strange on this one It just kind of works with it I will say one of the unintended sort of things that has happened though is it does cause the game to play a little bit slower actually So, you know, if you shoot a ramp and you're locking a ball or something, there's a little scene that plays out. You know, ball one locked, you know, and it shows a character or something. Or, you know, if you've locked two balls, it'll do the same animation, then you can hit the button to cancel it. And as you're doing that, like, nothing's happening. You know, the ball is in the fast lock, but it's not shooting out. It's just waiting for this animation to finish. You know, sometimes if you hit a scoop or something, you've got an extra ball, there'll be another additional delay while you're waiting for this to play out. And I'm kind of thinking, like, you know, this can play out. I don't need to be looking at the LCD screen. I'm, like, tapping my hand on the cabinet, like, come on, ball. You're supposed to be a fast lock system. Let's speed it up, you know. So maybe that will be something that will be added in code.
    12:06
    Another aspect, though, that is a minor frustration, But the mini modes work such that you hit the lit insert and then a flashing insert will light. It's a hurry up. You have to do that one to qualify that mini mode and complete it. Well, there's a timer on it because it's a hurry up. And it doesn't currently hold if the ball is stuck in one of the fast locks while animation is playing out. So there's been frequently, you know, I'll hit this thing, a ball will lock. It's got to play the ball lock little video and everything or whatever it's going to do. So all the time this is happening, the timer is counting down on the hurry up. So when you finally do get the ball back, you have one maybe time for two shots, and then it's timed out and you have to go and start it again. A little gripe, you know, and I think it's something that can be fixed with code. You know, if you're stuck in the fast lock system waiting for an animation to play out, maybe just kind of extend that timer a little bit until the player actually gets control of the ball and can do something again. You know, I think that would be fun. Or let me, you know, cancel out of it hitting the flipper buttons or something. Passing on. So that's kind of where I'm coming down on Venom.
    13:09
    I've had a lot of fun with this game. I've put 200 games on it. It's very thrilling to finish Null. It was a great sense of accomplishment to finally, you know, get the character. I think a game like this, playing it just coin drop without logging in, is kind of fruitless, right? You know, I've tried that a couple times now, just to see what the average person would walk up and what their gameplay experience to this would be. And it kind of sucks a little bit. But, you know, you start off at level one, and, you know, if you're playing a halfway decent game, you can get yourself to level 10, which is the minimum that you have to be in order to then go to the next level and actually beat one of these or fight one of these bosses, right? Agony, Phage, Lasher, you know, the little guys there. The problem is, you know, by the time you get up to level 10 for, you know, I'm an average player, maybe a little above average. I could drop catch, right? I know how to dead flip. But even I can get to around level 10 If I'm having a halfway decent game Not blowing it up, but Not totally draining, I can get to level 10 And then start one of those things But by the time I do that, I'm on ball 3 And then I'm probably going to drain And not even make it that far And if I do, here's the thing If you get to level 10, you're playing well enough You leveled up, you unlocked the boss You did the mini-modes, and then you go into one of these battles You're going to be severely under-leveled At level 10 You know, it's going to take you like, it's frustrating. It seems like it's ten shots to get through each of the two phases. And, you know, that seems a little overbearing. But, yeah, you know, level up and it's easier, of course. But it's hard to do that over the course of just one gameplay. So I don't know what the solution to this is. I don't know, you know, if you log in, sure, it makes total sense that you're just going to get your butt handed to you until you level up. But you're going to be able to continue where you left off as you go. But if you didn't log in and you're just a casual person putting your dollar in there and you're going to play a game on this, I kind of think they should maybe make it easier to level up if you're just playing a one-off game that you're not going to have a way to continue, just so you have a chance on getting through it. Otherwise, you really have to be on your game and blowing this thing up to be able to get to level 40 or something to be able to actually blast through these bosses and things. So those are my thoughts on Venom. It's a solid B game. It's enjoyable. I'm glad I had it in my game room. It's part of the Stern 4 experiment that I started. The idea being, what if there was a way that I could just have a rotating brand new Stern game through my game room for the next year? I figured they would release three, maybe four games over a year. Is there a way I can get the brand new hottest Stern game in, play it, and then when the next one comes out, sell the one I have and use those proceeds towards the purchase of the next one? and do it almost like a subscription model where I'm almost kind of rent-owning the game. It comes in, I play it, get that one off, get the next one in, and then at least I could play through the next four games. And if I really like one, I could keep it or find it again later. And so here's how it's going. I'm two games in now with Venom. Foo Fighters was the first one. Foo Fighters is still here, but I wasn't expecting Foo Fighters to be as fun as it was, so that's why it stuck around. But now it's time to move on. I'm committed. I'm going to stick to the original plan that everybody said was not going to work. And I'm going to get ready to sell Venom. I'm going to sell Foo Fighters. And I'm going to move on to whatever Stern has next. And then at the end of this experiment, I'll see kind of where I was at. My hope was that maybe I would take a $500 loss on each game after having it for three or four months. Maybe $2,000 averaged over a year. Which comes out to around $200 a month to have the hottest, brandest, newest Stern game in your game room for a whole year. And I thought that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. So we'll see how it's going. We're halfway through the experiment. What that means to you, dear listener, is I've got a tricked-out Venom here, fully powder-coated with a topper, and all these mods and things that people have sent me and I've purchased that are in there. It's covered in art blades. It's got a shooter rod. It's got everything you would want, shaker, knocker. The only thing you would have to do is, like, a speaker upgrade, if you want, or some HD glass. Otherwise, you know, it's ready to go. And I'll have it available for, you know, a great price, probably right under MSRP. If you're interested, email me now. It's not even listed on Pinside yet, and we can make a deal. We can do delivery. We can do local delivery. We can figure it out, and I'm reasonable. Give me a reasonable offer, and I'll probably accept it. So if you want to get yourself a Venom, it doesn't have to be a game you've got to commit to 10 years of ownership. But if you want to get it in and play it, especially now going forward into the next year when a lot of these code updates will be coming out, when this topper is going to be coming out, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world. So your buddy Don will hook you up, so holler at me. all right i'm very excited to get to this next part right i've got michael barnard artist for stern his first project was rush pinball uh which as you know i own the le uh fantastic game let's get into this interview um i had a ton of questions on the process and everything and we did get them answered so here we go oh man coming to the podcast i'm super excited to have mike barnard with us he's the artist from a recent stern release i believe let's see what was that hmm oh right he was the guy that did all the rush arts yeah mike what's up buddy hey man how's it going that's fantastic man it's always a good day here at the district on arcade world headquarters for podcast recording and you're coming to us from the lovely greater southern california region so man you did a pinball project for stern that's amazing i did yeah it was a blast it was a it was a huge deal to me it was a lot of fun and uh it's it's awesome seeing the reactions to it. It was a great experience. It was a lot of fun. Yeah, so me and you have been talking online. I just want to pick your brain a little bit and see what the process is. How does one get picked to do or even find out that pinball is a thing and they're still being manufactured and they need artists?
    18:51
    Sure, yeah. I actually reached out to them. I think I had reached out to them a few years prior to that. I never really heard anything back. The way that goes, it's all about timing. I just happened to reach out to them. Somebody I was messaging with, talking to, said, hey, you should reach out to Stern. You should do some pinball stuff. So I shot them an email, and they actually answered me back. I talked to Greg, the art director there at Stern, and I just happened to reach out to them right when they were looking for artists to come on board for a big, top-secret new project. Of course, they won't tell you what it is, but I sent him a bunch of samples of my work, and And, you know, he's like, oh, yeah, you might be a good fit for this. For that project, they were doing what they call a test. I don't think it's something they normally do, but it's where they, I guess it's sort of their way of maybe exploring new talent, finding some new people.
    19:47
    He said, if you're interested, we can get you set up. Basically, you know, of course, he couldn't tell me what the project was, but he said, you know, you sign a nondisclosure. and then we'll tell you what the project is and then you basically submit what you would do for this project if it were given to you. Sure. And so from what I understood, they reached out to a handful of people and I said, you know, of course, this would be awesome. So they got the nondisclosure. I found out it was Rush. I was like, okay, that's cool. Yeah. So I talked with Greg a little bit and, you know, he sent some links to some stuff. He said this is some of the imagery, you know, that we'll probably use. hear some of the songs and videos and that kind of thing. And, um, I put together, you know, a layout for a back glass is my first pinball project I'd ever worked on. Um, it was just, it was just the back glass. It was just like a, you know, one, one solid horizontal piece of art. Um, he liked it and he said, okay, uh, maybe paint it, paint it up a little bit, kind of show us what some of the final art would look like, you know, just pick like a little area of the design and paint it up and I work really fast so once I jumped on it I ended up just painting the entire thing oh wow and yeah and uh I got I had it done weeks early and uh he seemed to like it and he said all right we'll get back with you and it was actually on my birthday in August of 2020 I got the phone call from him and he said yeah because you're on if you want it now now is this the kind of art that you typically do or was this a departure for you I mean do you do like concert or band art or posters or promotional stuff? I do. I've been doing a lot of work for rock bands for years, mostly more of the hair band type of stuff I grew up with in the 80s. I do all the stuff. I do stuff for Skid Row and Slaughter. I do all of Vince Neil from Motley Crue. I do all his stuff. Okay. Kick, Cinderella, Firehouse, Steelheart, Def Leppard, all that kind of stuff. I mean, I've done stuff for like Fall Out Boy and other bands too, But as far as pinball goes, this was the first, like, game art I'd ever done. Now, are you kind of like a pinball arcade guy to begin with, or are you just kind of, like, aware that it exists?
    22:00
    Yes and no. I mean, I've always loved it. I don't really have any arcades around here, you know, that I've been to. But, I mean, I grew up loving that kind of stuff, and there was just something about the art packages that just always appealed to me, you know, the backlit art and that kind of stuff. I just thought it would be, I think my style lends itself, you know, to that really well. So it's just something I want to kind of get on board with. I mean, basically, you know, these things are designed to be commercial machines. They're supposed to be eye-catching. And just like a concert poster you'd see on a wall, you know, you might walk by and see that cabinet art and say oh okay now I need to connect with that theme and walk over there And you know essentially the back glass is just a big illuminated you know canvas back there you know to draw people in so I could see you know how it can connect with you know other art that you may have already done you know
    22:47
    Yeah, sure, yeah. It's just something I always thought would be fun. And, you know, it was a blast working on it and kind of learning how all that stuff works, working with the team there, working with Greg, who's awesome. those guys are next level. I mostly work with t-shirt companies across the country. I've done toy packaging design. I've done... I work with Topps. You remember Garbage Pail Kids? Oh, do I, sir. Oh, yeah. So I've worked on all that kind of stuff. So I try and reach out and work on as many different things as I can. Pop culture related type stuff is kind of my thing. Sure. Now for something like this since it's not a completely original theme i mean you've got a ton of art to draw from already you know you've got all these album covers and posters that have already been done so like you know what's the process for putting together like an art package like say for the pro here you know where it's kind of like on the cabinet it's a cartoon concert scene you know was that something that was uh you know taken from like a comic book that already existed or something do you have to redo all that de novo from scratch or can you borrow from what's already been made before by other artists?
    23:57
    Well, we didn't really want to take something that was already done, but we wanted to kind of borrow from it to kind of play off of it as sort of a nod to something out there that Rush fans would pick up on.
    24:09
    Yeah, in the beginning, we just kind of laid everything out. We looked at all the different album covers. We went into some of the music videos, looked at some of the lyrics, and just tried to pull imagery that we thought would appeal to Rush fans and look good up there on the back glass and on the cabinets and stuff. So I think in the beginning, you know, you kind of make a decision, like do we want to do one with portraits? Do we want to do one, you know, the owl is just obvious, you know, the big blue owl, you know, that kind of stuff. So we just kind of threw some stuff out there, you know, the staircase, of course, different things like that that people would recognize what we were referring to but maybe kind of make it our own. a different angle of it, a different view of it. And that's kind of where we started with that. And then, yeah, there was a comic book. We used that, you know, for the portraits and that kind of thing. Okay, I did see that mentioned before, yeah. Like, I was kind of wondering, you know, like, the pros got kind of, you know, that cartoon look, you know, with, like, you know, bright spots of light. You know, the premium has that kind of satellite snow field with the, you know, big bright, you know, rush with the kind of white tracing lights coming off of it. And then, of course, you've got the steampunk-inspired LE. Now, were these just kind of three different concepts, and that's where they ended up? And then at the end, they kind of put them down like headshots, like, this one should be for the pro, this one should be for the premium, this is an LE. Or do you design them from the beginning, like, we know this is going to be the pro art, but we want to put more time and effort into the higher tiers? How does that process work? No, I don't think they really know right out of the gate. I think you just try and come up with three solid pieces. and then I think as we're working on them, they kind of decide, you know, this will work better as the pro. Let's do this one as the premium. You know, the steampunk stuff came to us pretty fast, so we carried that over onto the play field, and that was sort of like tying everything together. So I think they kind of figured that was going to be the big, you know. Oh, okay. You know, the heavy-duty, you know, beautiful, you know, limited edition, let's do the steampunk with that one, And then, yeah, I'm not really sure how that process works. I don't know. I guess they just kind of sit there and lay them out and decide, you know, which one's which. And then once we decide which one is going on which model, then we design the cabinet around the rest of that to match that back glass. Oh, I see. Okay, because I didn't know, like, you know, are the back glasses just kind of off on the side separately? And, you know, or do you try to tie kind of what you're coming up with for the back glass to that cabinet design and back box design too? Yeah, that's kind of how each package is determined, is basically just starting with the back glass and then tying the cabinets into each one. Okay. So, yeah. Before we get into the play field, though, I do want to say I had the LE of Rush, man. Love that machine. And one of the things that I really love about that LE trim level that Stern does are kind of like the foil embossments and things on the cabinet graphics. You know, they go a step above just a simple vinyl print, you know, the gloss or whatever. Like, do you have input on, like, those finishes? Or does your art go to somebody else that does, like, a layout of how the foil is going to look or what kind of texture embellishments they're going to do? Okay. At this point, I'm so new with them. For me, it's just I just do the art. And then they kind of know that's their thing. And they'll kind of just tell me, like, hey, we're going to give this treatment to this. And we're going to put a reflective piece over here. and, you know, like they're so good at that. They have that so dialed in. I don't know if maybe like Jeremy, you know, like Zombie Yeti, when he's doing it, I have a feeling he's probably more, you know, like, hey, we should do this. I'm kind of still the newbie, so I'm just kind of like, hey, here's the art. You guys do your thing with it.
    27:58
    But, yeah, they definitely know what they're doing because the machines come out just incredible. Yeah, and I think it's really been a thing over the last, you know, year and a half or so with Rush being one of the first ones that I've noticed it. And, you know, you had a Mandalorian Ellie that came out, a Godzilla Ellie. And I didn't really notice that they had stepped up that kind of finish on, like, the texture of the graphic. And then I saw Rush. And when I unboxed it in my house down here, that was the first time I saw, like, this, you know, kind of foil reflective embellishments on it. And, you know, the custom side armor there with the steampunk, you know, look to the armor. Did you have any input on, like, those sorts of things, like the Ellie armor that's on the side where it's like a guitar going into the gears? Or was that a different department? um with as far as the art yes i mean we kind of all throw ideas out one of the coolest things about working with them and it took me a while to realize this was just how much artistic freedom they give you like to come up with stuff like they really are all about if you think of it throw it out there like every idea you can think of because and that took me a while i'm not really used to that i'm used to working with a lot of t-shirt companies and places where they kind of just tell you everything to throw in there. Or like they're micromanaging you and just, you know, putting the boundaries up and you have to work within that.
    29:14
    Yeah, with Stern, I mean, I remember when I was first working on that job, the first couple months, I remember that, you know, having a talk with Greg one time where he's like, listen, because I was kind of waiting for them to tell me what they wanted. And they're like, no, go. Like, go nuts with this. Like, come up with everything you can.
    29:32
    But, yeah, even down to like the side armor and that kind of stuff. I remember doing a couple different things that I threw over the fence to them, and they kind of narrow it down and come back with their ideas. Of course, John Borg, he's a huge Rush guy, so he had all kinds of ideas too. That's great, yeah. Yeah, he was really good with that stuff. He'd send me YouTube links and all kinds of stuff. Hey, check this out and pay attention to this part and maybe look at this. He was really into it. So it wasn't that everybody was kind of like remote in their own silos, and then, you know, this project just kind of gets stitched together at the end. Like, you know, there was kind of cross-input between, you know, the artists and the other designers of the game.
    30:15
    Yeah, yeah, and it's a fun process, and it's, you know, I'm on the other side of the country, obviously, from where they're working on all this stuff, and we happened to be working on this during COVID. So everyone was working from home anyway, so, you know, we would have like a weekly Zoom meeting, you know, and everyone would pull out their little sketch pads and hold up, you know, hey, this is what I'm thinking. And, yeah, it's a really fun team effort, you know, those guys really could. So I kind of imagine that by the time you get involved as far as, like, working on the play field, you know, they've got themselves a Whitewood, right? They've got their game layout that they want, the targets and everything they want, you know, and then you kind of have to come in and, like, how do you start that process of populating a play field with art, you know? Do you look at the play field first, then start incorporating concepts, or do you have an idea and then try to make it fit?
    31:07
    Kind of both. I mean, they've got the wireframe, you know, the templates and that kind of stuff. Like you said, it's all kind of dialed in already, so they send you basically this weird-shaped blank canvas, and then you kind of start with the focal point and work your way out from there. And they've already got certain things in mind, like we want to kind of have this here. We're going to do a time machine element, and it's going to be right here. So maybe build out around that and then figure out how to blend certain sections of things together where it all looks seamless.
    31:42
    But, yeah, I mean, it's kind of like the other things. It's just a blank canvas, and you start coming up with things based on where certain things have to go. and then you put those in there and then you just kind of fill out the rest of it with either textures or elements. That seems a lot easier than trying to shoehorn a concept into somewhere and just make it fit, right? Beat it into submission.
    32:05
    Because by the time they bring it to you, they've got an idea of what the modes of the game are going to be, what inserts are going to be lit up. But the idea of the planets at the bottom, who came up with that? Did they come to you and say, we kind of want a planetary system down here, come up with something? I don't remember if they came up with that or if I just threw that in there yeah I mean there's also the element too of following the direction of the ball and the flow and coming out from the bottom center fanning out and there are certain lanes and things in the game that you want to kind of have your art contour to so yeah I mean it's really just There's a lot of back and forth. I mean, you'd be amazed at how many back and forth revisions there are, you know, where something looks good but maybe doesn't fit or, you know, this piece looks really good, but, you know, in the end it's going to get covered up by a toy or, you know, or a ramp or something like that. That's something that I'm still kind of getting used to, you know.
    33:09
    You know, you're working on the art as a stripped down flat piece, and you kind of have to think ahead and look at some of the other schematics and things that they send to you to kind of realize, like, oh, you won't even see this back here. Yeah. So, like, you know, what's your medium you're working in when you're sketching this stuff up? I mean, are you in, like, an AutoCAD file and, you know, adding your art there, or do you have sketch pads and then get it all scanned in, or how does that work? I do have sketch pads for, like, the very, very early stuff, but, I mean, I do everything in Photoshop. I use the paintbrushes. I have a Wacom tablet. but even a lot of the sketches are done just as quick Photoshop paintings, little drawings and stuff on there, and that makes it easy to just save it as a JPEG and shoot it over the fence to them And then yeah all the way up through final artwork I do everything in Photoshop Throughout the course of this process how much do you have to travel to Chicago to meet in person with people with reams of things under your arm? Or is this all done completely remotely now? It's all remote. I did happen to go there. I'm actually from Ohio, so I have a lot of family there in Dayton.
    34:18
    Shout out to Dayton. We, shout out to Dayton. So we went to Dayton to see everybody. And I was like, oh, you know, it's only about a five-hour drive. So, and again, this is during COVID, but we went up there. I drove up there to, you know, to meet everybody. And, of course, half the people weren't there because they were working from home. But, you know, Greg gave me a big tour of the shop there. And I got to see how everything works and how everything was put together. And that was really cool. I mean, that was, I kind of felt like a, you know, I got to see kind of behind the curtain a little bit. You get to go in the chocolate factory, yeah. Yeah, and when I went there, they had, you know, they were right in the middle of working on a prototype, you know, of the Rush game. So it wasn't complete, but I got to kind of see the bare bones of it and how it was coming together and stuff. That was really cool. Yeah, now when you're doing a play field, you know, a play field isn't a piece of art that you hang on the wall, except for, you know, some of the extra play fields I have on my walls. you know but functionally when you're playing these things i mean they're laid out in front of the player so do you have to take that perspective in in mind when you're designing the drawings and everything in the art you know is there like forced perspective you're put in there because you're you're viewing this at like a 45 degree angle or so yeah yeah and again that kind of goes back to like what i was saying before about like certain things are hidden behind other things that you know while you're working on it you're assuming that you forget as you're painting it that you're looking straight down on it. But yeah, it's not.
    35:44
    Kind of, yeah. I mean, you do kind of want to use that perspective and kind of draw the eye back to certain mechanics that are back there. You know, some of the toys and that kind of things or certain shots you're going after.
    35:56
    I gotta imagine it's gotta be interesting, like, the first time you see an actual populated play field with your art on it and you look down and you're like, oh man, I spent so much time sketching out this thing and I didn't like how it was coming out and now there's no way to even see it because there's a ramp sitting on top of it. Do you have art that's hidden in there that you're like, I worked really hard on that and you can hardly see it? I don't think so on that one, really. But I do remember the first time I saw the completed game was when they revealed the video. That was the first time I saw it. It was when they first rolled out that promo video, and I was like, oh my god. It was so cool looking. I couldn't believe how awesome it looked. I was like, wow. So that is kind of like, you know, these games take a long time. I mean, I worked on that for over a year. Yeah. And, you know, you get done and you do it piece by piece, and then you work on the plastics. And, like, you know, you're doing everything in these little, you know, little projects, little individual projects and shooting the files over to them, and then you just move on to the next thing. And then all of a sudden at the end when it's done and it's all put together and you're looking at everything with the lights and everything, you're just like, whoa, that is awesome. So, yeah, that was great. I will never forget the first time I saw that video. I was blown away. It was the coolest thing ever. We hear this from actors and things, too, sometimes. You know, they're working on these films and these projects and these producers and everything, and then they say, the first time we saw the completed cut was at the premiere. And I'm like, what are you guys talking about? I mean, you were working on this thing the whole time. But, you know, there's so much that happens, and then it all gets kind of squirreled away. And then, you know, like that last 5% of development is probably when, like, the most noticeable changes are happening, when everything's getting integrated, you know. So, yeah. Sure, yeah. So the first time you saw it was just that video reveal. And then did they bring you out for like an unveiling? Do they do like a red carpet thing or like an industry party when these things are getting ready? Is there a launch party that Stern does where everybody can get together and kind of celebrate their games coming out or no? Or does it just happen at Expo?
    37:54
    Yeah, I think they just kind of pick an event like that and roll them out. I didn't really go to anything for Rush. I kind of wish I had. I almost went to the Texas Pinball Festival, which I guess they did a big thing there with it. At the time, you know, that was the first game I had worked on, and I was kind of like, I don't know. Like, is it worth me going there? I don't know. Maybe I'm going to just be like a one-off. You know, like I'm not really sure. Like I don't want to show up there like I'm, you know, this big new Stern employee and then never work on anything again. And then afterwards, everyone's like, you should have came. You'd have loved it.
    38:28
    Hey, I mean, your first game out of the box, game of the year, man. What kind of mic drop is that? That was pretty cool. I will say the one thing that I kind of came away from that game with, I mean, I was super proud of it. It is a blast to play. It's fun. But I caught so much crap over those portraits on the play field. It was hard because you put all this time and work and, you know, literally hundreds if not thousands of hours into, like, all these different back glasses and the you know cabinet art and plastics and you know all these little details and all this stuff and then of course front and center are these portraits which they had wanted to be like that they you know that was a specific order was you know we want these to be these based off of these comic book characters and i don't know if maybe they just assumed people would make that connection and know that that's what we were pulling from I'm sure even the moderately diehard Rush band fans probably got that. But like me, I've been getting into the band, but I didn't know them on that intimate level. I don't own any Rush comic books, for instance. So when I saw that, it was like everything's kind of like steampunk and gears and everything, and then here's like three cartoon guys from like a Hanna-Barbera cartoon or something. But then I found out later on that this is like what – was it the band that wanted this, or this was kind of art that they had already had? The band had wanted those. And I kind of thought when I was working on it, I remember thinking that the issue, if there were any issues with it, it was going to be that the three guys were taken from different eras. It's more of a modern, you know, Geddy Lee with the glasses and the little soul patch thing. And it was a really old school. Neil. Neil, you know, and everyone, as soon as it came out, everyone was like, Neil looks like a magician. And people were arguing with, you know, everybody over it. And I was just like, oh, my God. And, like, I don't know. That was probably the hardest thing about that whole project because I felt like after all that work, that was, like, the one thing everyone just laser-focused on. But, you know, I mean, people were passionate about it. It was a big deal. And, you know, Rush is a pretty divisive band, I think, in a lot of ways. It seems like a lot of people just kind of love them or hate them. Sure.
    40:42
    So I know a lot of people were kind of set out to hate it right out of the gate. Like, they never were going to like it no matter what just because, oh, God, Rush. I remember I didn't know any rumors that this game was coming out, and then my first shot was the trailer when it dropped, and I was just like, I had just been getting into Rush over the last year, and kind of appreciating them on an adult level, not like when I was a teenager and they were on the classic rock station, it's like, how's his dad music? And then that drops, and it was like, I've got to make this happen somehow. And then I did. One came available. I got myself an LE with very low plays. I had it for a year here in the game room. And, you know, as I was playing it, you know, the jarring effect of the, you know, cartoon folks down there, you know, just kind of went away. It just blended in. So, you know, I think it really, you know, it's what the band wanted. It comes from a place of rush, you know. So it wasn't that somebody just kind of sketched something that didn't really care and threw it in there. You know, thought was behind everything.
    41:38
    Yeah. On one hand, it didn't bother me in some ways because I felt like that was the one piece of the entire art package that wasn't really my style. like it was meant to take off of something else that existed so on one hand I could kind of blow it off and be like yeah you know that's the one part that's not really me and that's the part everyone seems to have an issue with so okay that's fine I hope that speaks to a brighter future for you though too because you know the original art that you made I love it especially like that premium too looks good I would love to get that with like foil embellishments on it did you have a hand in making the banner um actually not really is it just cobbled together from the work that's done and the layout artist does that yeah they've got some people on staff there i guess that know photoshop pretty well when i'm done i upload you know these massive photoshop files i don't know if you ever messed with photoshop but you know you work in layers and stuff some of these files have you know 1500 2000 3000 layers in them they're a nightmare i can't imagine dealing with someone else's files like that.
    42:44
    It's one thing when you've built it and you can understand the nuance of it, but try to dive into somebody else's.
    42:49
    Yeah, exactly. So I send the files off to them and I try and simplify it down as much as I can and then send it off to them and then, yeah, they've got people there that'll take those files apart and build banners and promotional stuff and set up whatever they need from those files. And I always tell them, I'm like, I'm here if you need, you know, I don't mind if you guys need, if If I could save you guys some time, I could probably do it faster. But, yeah, they take those and make the banners and stuff. Well, sir, that's fantastic. Yeah. So I hope we're going to see some more from you. I mean, are you one and done with pinball? Or do you think there's a possibility that, you know, if, you know, the right offer were to come by, would we see something else from you from the pin world?
    43:29
    Oh, you'll see more. Oh. Oh, secret knowledge. All right. I'm going to need a street date. I'm going to need a theme. I need to know the designer. How many balls are in the machine, sir? I'm kidding. I'm not going to press you for any of that. No, I'm not. But I'm excited. I can't wait to see what you have up next for us here.
    43:47
    Oh, I am too. Believe me. It's almost hard to sleep at night. I'm so excited. But, yeah, you'll see more. You'll see more. I want you to try to stay – do me a favor and stay warm this winter down there at your homestead there. I'm sure it's frigid, of course. Yeah, it's down to, I think, the mid-70s right now and sunny. You might have to wear thicker cargo shorts when you go get tacos then.
    44:08
    All right, buddy. Thanks so much for coming on. No problem. Thanks for having me. Yeah, buddy. Michael Bernard, you are a gem. Thank you so much for coming on with us. I really do appreciate it, and it was fun getting a chance to talk to you, buddy. All right, that brings us to the end of another episode, man. I want to thank Mike for joining. Welcome back anytime, sir. I hope you've got some new projects in the works. Come on, we'll talk about them as soon as you're able to have the embargo listed. If you want to get yourself a Venom, go ahead and holler at your boy Don, man. We've got it ready to go. Don's Pinball Podcast at gmail.com is a great way to get a hold of me. Patreon members, Don Pinball Podcast at the Patreon backslash. Go check that out. Join the crew, man. We got mailings going out. I will be around. Hit me back with that outro music. I'm not done yet. I'll be at IAAPA next week in Florida. If you're in the area, you want to meet up, hang out, play some games, invite me over, introduce me to your Aunt Sally. I am down for that, man. We'll be in Florida all week. I'll try to do some live streams from the show floor. Try to do. You know I'm going to do it. And then we'll do some episodes, too, later in the week. I've got some feelings that some more news is still going to be on the way. Spooky sending out stuff. It's crazy. Check out the live stream. Later.