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Ep 24: Happy Holidays!

LoserKid Pinball Podcast·podcast_episode·58m 40s·analyzed·Dec 18, 2019
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Analysis

claude-haiku-4-5-20251001 · $0.035

TL;DR

Rick and Morty sells out in 4 hours; Stranger Things rumors heating up; collection philosophy debate.

Summary

Josh and Scott discuss the pinball market during the slow holiday season, focusing on game collection philosophy, Spooky's record-breaking Rick and Morty announcement (750 units sold in 4 hours), and rumors about Stern's upcoming Stranger Things release. They analyze how niche themes work in pinball, production capacity constraints, and why certain premium-only games like Elvira struggle to find mainstream audiences despite strong enthusiast appeal.

Key Claims

  • Rick and Morty sold out in less than 4 hours with a 750-unit cap

    high confidence · Josh announces this as breaking news at the start of the episode, stating 'it sold out in less than four hours i mean this is a record for spooky definitely'

  • Spooky produces approximately 10 games per week, making 750 units roughly 75 weeks of production (1.5 years)

    high confidence · Josh calculates: 'if they're producing about 10 games a week, 750 is probably their max because that's 75 weeks of production'

  • Stern released Munsters in the second or third week of January last year

    medium confidence · Scott states: 'I feel they released Munsters last year, second or third week into January'

  • A reasonable depreciation for pinball machines within the first year should be around 10%

    medium confidence · Josh asserts: 'a reasonable hit on a pinball machine after it's new, at least within the first year, should be maybe 10%'

  • TNA machines held value at roughly 90% of retail price in the secondary market

    medium confidence · Josh states: 'you can still get them for roughly about 90% of what the retail was'

  • Jurassic Park has been selling extremely well ('red hot demand') during the six-month gap before Stranger Things announcement

    high confidence · Josh notes: 'the demand for Jurassic park has been red hot' and observes the gap between Jurassic Park's July release and December Stranger Things announcement

  • There's been a six-month gap between Jurassic Park (July) and Stranger Things announcement (December), which is atypical for Stern

    high confidence · Scott observes: 'there's been such a space between Jurassic Park and Stranger Things. You know, Jurassic Park was officially released in July, and now we're into December. It's almost a full six months'

  • Cassandra Peterson hasn't been making public appearances for 15-20 years

    medium confidence · Scott states: 'cassandra peterson hasn't really been making anything for the last you know 15 20 years'

Notable Quotes

  • “it sold out in less than four hours i mean this is a record for spooky definitely”

    Josh Roop @ early in episode — Announces Rick and Morty's record-breaking sales performance

  • “if they're producing about 10 games a week, 750 is probably their max because that's 75 weeks of production and you have to freshen up the lineup”

    Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Reveals Spooky's production capacity and explains their business model justifying the 750-unit cap

  • “we are a small town business and we are trying to make sure that we don't have these crazy swings in production and we have steady lines of production”

    Josh Roop (describing Charlie's philosophy) @ mid-episode — Articulates Spooky's business philosophy around controlled production and avoiding market chaos

  • “The theme surprised me a little bit because it is outside of the wheelhouse of the 45-year-old guy with a game room, which is exactly my demographic”

    Scott Larson @ mid-episode — Acknowledges Rick and Morty targets a younger demographic outside the traditional 80s rock/nostalgia demographic

  • “the only group that she still resonates strongly with is the pinball crowd... pop culture has really moved past Elvira”

    Scott Larson @ late-episode — Explains why Elvira appeals primarily to pinball enthusiasts rather than mainstream audiences

  • “unless you personally own it or you know someone who owns it, you are going to forget about anything that doesn't have a pro game”

    Scott Larson @ late-episode — Articulates the market importance of Pro versions for location visibility and mainstream awareness

  • “there's this fine line between being too easy and too difficult. Having the game that has that nice mix of satisfying shots that are difficult but findable”

    Josh Roop @ early-episode — Discusses the critical design balance needed for wizard mode difficulty and player satisfaction

Entities

Josh RooppersonScott LarsonpersonSpooky PinballcompanyRick and MortygameStranger ThingsgameStern PinballcompanyKerry Hardyperson

Signals

  • ?

    business_signal: Spooky Pinball sold 750 Rick and Morty units in under 4 hours, generating $750,000+ in non-refundable deposits

    high · Josh: 'it sold out in less than four hours... they sold 750 of these. That's three-quarters of a million dollars in four hours'

  • ~

    sentiment_shift: Rick and Morty sold out quickly despite targeting younger demographic outside traditional 80s rock fanbase, indicating successful market segmentation by Spooky

    high · Josh: 'they branching out from my demographic... it's certainly a niche theme... it's a perfect game for Spooky. And I'm actually quite surprised that it sold out so quickly'

  • ?

    competitive_signal: Premium-only games (Elvira, Black Knight, Beatles) lack location visibility without Pro versions; market segments casual players out of gameplay due to distribution limits

    high · Scott: 'unless you personally own it or you know someone who owns it, you are going to forget about anything that doesn't have a pro game'

  • ?

    design_philosophy: Niche theme targeting (Rick and Morty for younger audiences) represents strategic diversification away from core 45+ demographic with traditional rock/nostalgia IP

    high · Scott: 'it is outside of the wheelhouse of the 45-year-old guy with a game room, which is exactly my demographic... I am happy that there are some alternative things out there'

  • $

    market_signal: Stern maintaining sustained production of Jurassic Park alongside new Stranger Things announcement despite 6-month release gap (atypical for Stern)

    high · Scott: 'the demand for Jurassic park has been red hot... I'm wondering, since they have multiple lines, perhaps they just feel that, well, we can still keep Jurassic Park going'

Transcript

groq_whisper · $0.176

0:00
hey thanks for tuning in to the loser kid pinball podcast it is episode 24 with me my co-captain as always scott larson hey scott how you doing today man you know i feel like if it's episode 24 we should probably do like a 24 theme like a jack bauer theme so we're gonna do like 24 hours of just podcasting? What were we going to do here? No, I was thinking we were going to review the classic Stern title 24. That was so widely received in such an amazing pen.
0:37
You know, honestly, I've never seen one in my entire existence and didn't know it existed until I heard it on. May was head to head. I didn't know that. Yeah. Have you even played 24? No, there is, there's kind of this wasteland in the, um, And basically after Lord of the Rings and Simpsons Pinball Party, there's this wasteland of pinball, just wilderness, where you hear about these games. You're like, yeah, I kind of remember those games, but there's nothing memorable about them. They are completely phoning it in. and we've talked about the second renaissance with Jersey Jack coming in and saying, huh, well, what they're doing is not up to the quality we think we should do. So, hey, guess what? We are going to step up the game. And then the Empire Strikes Back, Stern said, oh, that's what you want to do? Okay, let's show you what we can do.
1:35
Yeah. So it seems like in that whole wasteland, there's a few games that bubble to the top that are fun to play. but off the top of my head, the games that are fun to play pre-ACDC,
1:52
and we're talking after the fall of the pinball 2000. So you have Lord of the Rings. You have since this pinball party.

“this is a home run no matter what. I mean, obviously it's a home run. They sold out in four hours”

Josh Roop @ mid-episode — Affirms Rick and Morty's success despite personal lukewarm feelings about the theme

Charlie (Spooky Pinball)person
Keith Johnsonperson
Joe Lemireperson
Ken Cromwellperson
Rob Zombiegame
Alice Cooper Nightmare Castlegame
TNA (Total Nuclear Annihilation)game
Jurassic Parkgame
Elviragame
Shrekgame
Simpsons Pinball Partygame
Lord of the Ringsgame
Attack from Marsgame
Black Knightgame
Beatlesgame
  • $

    market_signal: Secondary market depreciation for pinball machines appears stable at ~10% within first year; Rick and Morty expected to follow TNA pattern (90% of retail)

    medium · Josh: 'a reasonable hit on a pinball machine after it's new... should be maybe 10%' and 'TNA, you can still get them for roughly about 90% of what the retail was'

  • ?

    product_strategy: Stranger Things announcement expected within days/week; 6-month gap between Jurassic Park (July) and Stranger Things (December) unusual for Stern's typical cadence

    high · Josh: 'The rumors that are ramping up this week are Stranger Things... our sources are saying it's going to be released probably within the next week'

  • ?

    product_concern: Rob Zombie experienced secondary market chaos with excessive flipping and price volatility despite quick sellout, contrasting with stable markets like TNA and Alice Cooper

    medium · Josh: 'Rob Zombie was... people buying them, and then the hype was so unreal. And then, like, six months along, people were bored with their Rob Zombies'

  • ?

    rumor_hype: Stranger Things will feature lighting-based 'Upside Down' mechanic and no lower playfield according to Joe Lemire/Head to Head speculation

    low · Josh: 'Joe Lemire over at Head to Head said that the upside down is going to be a lighting effect... The other rumor is there won't be a lower play field'

  • ?

    business_signal: Spooky maintains deliberate production cap of ~10 units/week to control demand swings and steady product pipeline; 750-unit limit reflects ~1.5 year production window

    high · Josh: 'Charlie has really focused on. We are a small town business... we are trying to make sure that we don't have these crazy swings in production... if they're producing about 10 games a week, 750 is probably their max'

    • 2:04
    Spider-Man's fun. It's a fun game. Oh, yeah. I would put Iron Man in that category too. Pirates of the Caribbean.
    2:14
    What am I missing? You know, honestly, I think you've hit them all. The ones I can think of. No, I will say there are other ones that are passable. They're okay. I will say that I have committed to playing Shrek to understand it and really try to appreciate the game because I've just never really been able to get into it. I bought it a little sight unseen, and the theme is fantastic.
    2:54
    The flow, it's quirky. It's interesting. But I've come to the conclusion that every time I play it, I think, huh, what would I – so when you play the what would I rather have? Would I rather have this or would I rather have something else? And then I start thinking, you know what, maybe it's time to shake up the collection a little bit. And I'm not a guy who shakes up collection that much. Yeah, all the time I've known you, I think your collections pretty much stayed the same. I mean, the last thing that come in was Attack from Mars, and that was when they released it, dude. Yeah. No, basically it's kind of a pain to move things in and out of my basement. And so that has really helped in me not turning over things that much. But I also feel that I want to dominate. I don't want to say dominate a game, but when you buy a video game, you beat the game, right? You eventually finish the game, and then you're like, okay, I finished that, and I want to move on. And maybe it's just that I don't. One, I'm not really an epic pinball player. And two, I just don't have the time to put in to really get good on one game. and so I've never really felt like I have scratched that itch on the game to move it on.
    4:12
    So that's why I've been trying to. And it's a fun game, like a fun theme. The call-outs are amazing. I just, when I play it, I think, huh, I think it's just like I have gotten the enjoyment I want out of this game and so I just want to move on. But I don't know. Are there games where you bought, where you said, you know, I really wanted that game. And then after you played it for a year or six months or something, you said, you know what? It's still a good game. And it's not like I'm selling a dump to someone else. But it's just time to move on, I guess. I think there's been a couple of games like that in my collection.
    4:57
    The first one that comes to mind is Fishtails. I enjoy Fishtails. But it just was not. my collection's small um i'm down to three right now i think the most i've ever been up to was seven um i'm kind of getting that itch again of i've got to get rid of something to get something new yeah but fishtails definitely floats to top um i loved johnny mnemonic but it was kind of samey samey after about six months yeah um but it's a that's a fantastic game it's just with a small collection and you start playing it over and over, it kind of, um, it kind of loses its replayability, I guess. Um, the one that would shock a lot of people that I, we're, I was actually talking to, um, the guys over at Buffalo pinball. We were talking about this. Um, I had Simpsons pinball party for like six months and just moved it on. Um, I don't know what it is. I think the, the best way I could describe it to them is the game feels claustrophobic to me. Okay.
    6:01
    I think it's because the pop bumper's on the left. It's kind of like that Addams Family kind of layout where you've got some stuff really close on the left side in the middle, and then really the only shots are... Well, there's tons of shots on this game, but I just... I don't know. I felt like I was shooting garage TV, garage TV. I know a lot of people say, hey, there's a lot more to that. There's pretzel multiball. There's, you know... My favorite mode was the auto mode. Once you've collected all the kids, you get the Twilight Zone mode where your flippers reverse. Love that mode. But I just, I don't know. Simpsons, to me, fantastic game. Very deep. But after six months, I just kind of was done. I think I focus in on games so much that I don't want to see everything. and I kind of get burned out on them. I think it's like what Martin said over at Head to Head. You get so involved into a game and you play it just way entirely too much and then you're kind of done with it way too quick. Because he's trying to not do that with Jurassic Park and he's loving it right now, but he's taking it in stride. You know what I'm saying? Right. And he did that with Iron Maiden. So that's... It makes sense.
    7:19
    There are so many games that people who play so much, they get tired of them a lot faster than I do. I guess I would say it's that album that you love, but you listen to it so much that you're just, you know, you need a new itch. You need something else to move it on. But I don't really have that much time to play. So, you know, I can play for 30 minutes, But I don't have that six-hour streaming capability where I can be alone and just really get into a game. And so it feels that, at least with Shrek, that I've seen all that I need to in the game.
    8:07
    And I do understand the history. The history, obviously, it started off with Family Guy, and it just wasn't selling that well, so they re-skinned it. And, you know, I would say on the quick, they put everything in. Now, I will say at least the art package for how quickly they reskinned it, I think they did a fantastic job. And I absolutely love that they used the McDonald's toys for the sculpts in the game.
    8:36
    So you're playing a Happy Meal. Yeah, you know it. Yeah, it's actually pretty ingenious that they did that. However, I think they didn't make that epic wizard mode that you're really shooting for. We talked about this with Monster Bash where I got to the end. And by the way, if I can get to the end of the game, then that means that it's really pretty straightforward. It can still be fun. And I've been to the end of Iron Man, and I still enjoy playing Iron Man just because it's a fast experience.
    9:16
    But I also feel, okay, well, there's not much else that I'm really trying to shoot for. Yeah. I get you, man.
    9:25
    Well, and the funny part is I know your collection sits forever. And my collections usually I've got like two or three good staples, and then there's a revolver.
    9:33
    I sold my revolver to have some cash. and now I'm just down to my three staples. And it kind of dawned on me. I've had Monster Bash. It's been in my collection the shortest and it's been a year. And so I was like, well, dang, honestly, that's pretty much the longest I've ever held or not held a game. But I'm just like, it's time, dude. So hopefully it should all work out. I'm still waiting on it. But it sounds like I'm getting rid of Monster Bash and I'm going to pick up a shadow and a Lord of the Rings. Hopefully it all goes through well. But I figure that's not a bad trade-off, you know? No, and you talked to me about that, and I thought it was a good option to mix things up.
    10:22
    You know, the challenge is you can't really own them all. And so in many ways in this hobby, it's okay to have a few grails where, yeah, this is really what I want, and it's just never leaving my collection. But in many ways, you have to learn to enjoy a game and learn to part with the game too because otherwise you're going to have a warehouse in Baniff that has 150 games. Hey, what's wrong with that? No, okay, it would be epic. But could you imagine the maintenance nightmare on those? Oh, it'd be crazy. It'd be crazy. But yeah, so I'm just hoping... I really don't have that game that has that kind of depth that I really want, so that's why I'm going for Lord of the Rings. And I've always loved Shadow. I've wanted Shadow for years now. The crazy thing about Lord of the Rings, if you think about Keith Johnson coding both Simpsons and Lord of the Rings in the same year.
    11:23
    Yeah. Those are both games that are encyclopedic. Like when people talk about getting to Valinor, okay, great. don't know too many people who have actually made it to Alien Invasion and beyond in Simpsons I certainly haven't even come close see and I think that's the other thing that frustrated me about Simpsons is I would put all that work in and get to Alien Invasion and I know Steve Ritchie would just say play better but it is so hard to do Alien Invasion I don't know if anyone out there has tried it and been successful but the handful of times that I got to alien invasion, it's, I don't know, in my opinion, it's kind of like a kick in the face because it's like, Oh, you got this far. Congratulations. Now, good luck. You know what I'm saying? So, but it, it's that wizard mode that has to, it has to have the payoff where I imagine the video game analogy where you get to the end and then they're like, welcome to the end. You're dead. Yeah. You, you, you have to feel like there's, there's this progression and yes, you can actually accomplish or a satisfactory conclusion in the game. Otherwise you're really going to feel like, ah, that's not worth it. So, you know, what's funny. I don't know why I just remembered this, but there's a video game called Mario and Luigi superstar saga. It's an RPG based, like a term based attack game. But the literal final boss is you beat her and then she kills you within 1% of your, like one hit point and then after you like you come back i think like some guy brings you back to life you still only have one hit point and then she barrage attacks you with all these ridiculous amount of attacks that you've got to dodge to finally even just take a health potion and i know a lot of people that got to that point and hated it so much they just they quit the game they're like i've gotten to the end i'm calling it good you know what i'm saying no absolutely it feels like it can't be too brutal.
    13:35
    Correct. There's this fine line between being too easy and too difficult. Having the game that has that nice mix of satisfying shots that are difficult but findable.
    13:51
    Otherwise, you're just going to feel like this is brutal. It's not fun. I agree. well shall we move on to uh some news i think we should uh so anything happened in the last two weeks i mean it's uh it's been a slow time of year for pinball right it really has it's like you know christmas is here so they're taking the month off at least i think i think spooky deserves a little extra time off now yeah well i don't think they have any time off so uh if you If you haven been hiding under a rock in pinball you will have seen that Spooky has announced the Rick and Morty pinball machine and they put it out there at what two days ago and a cap of 750 and what happened josh uh it sold out in less than four hours i mean this is a record for spooky definitely okay now holy crap we have talked about this before tell me about the like what was your initial reaction to Rick and Morty and what is your reaction now? Now you've seen, you've seen the play field, you've seen the innovations, you've seen, you know, that classic Italian bottom with the pop bumper. That is, uh, I would say a slight risk considering that Ghostbusters tried at least, uh, messing with the kickers. And I would say unsuccessfully, uh, with, uh, with the premium and le people just didn't like what happened down there now this is different you have a kicker on the right side and you have a pop bumper on the left okay i know that is a huge question so first off let's talk about rick and morty how excited on a scale of one to ten were you about rick and morty and the second part is what do you like how do you see that as fitting into the global scheme of pinball themes?
    15:55
    Okay. So I will, I will answer your questions in the order that you ask them. So as far as Rick and Morty, um, I was probably about average seven. Like I love it when new pinball comes out, regardless. I don't care if it's my little pony or Rick and Morty. Like it doesn't matter. Pinball is pinball. You know what I'm saying? Okay. So my little pony is your grail theme. That's what you're saying. You know it. That's what I'm saying. You're a brawny, aren't you? No, actually, it's Golden Girls. Me and my wife watch that often. And so I could dig a Golden Girls pinball machine. I'm not going to lie. Okay, now I will say, I'm going to do a little tangent here. Okay, so, you know, Rufus Wainwright, the guy who, I don't think he actually sings the Hallelujah song in Shrek, but he's the one that people always think sings the Hallelujah song in Shrek because his single came out like right after Shrek. And so people just identify that with Shrek. Okay. Yeah. And so he watched the Golden Girls with his grandma all the time. And he finally met, it's Bea Arthur. And he went up and he told her the story of, you know, man, I really enjoy your show because I would, you know, bond with my grandma. And she turns to him and just says coldly, I'm not your effing grandma and walks away.
    17:19
    nice so i think that should be the wizard mode if there ever is a golden girls pinball machine okay yeah sounds legit okay so meanwhile back to your experience with the theme okay so starting off average uh i'd never really seen an episode of vick and morty i've watched like half of the first episode since then to now um i binge watched the first season and half of the second and as far as a theme goes for a pinball machine i think it works very well with pinball i think there's a lot of awesome campiness that you can do with the pinball machine as far as rick and mori itself it's not for me um i know that a lot of people are starting to find it they're all excited for it um they're they're loving this theme they're loving the show and so they're loving the translation it can make into pinball i just i don't know what it is i i just i'm not a fan like sorry i i'm not gonna be one of the 11 million people that watched the finale of season three um i just i'm not that guy i i don't know what else to say to it like I don't know. I'm still excited for this pinball machine. Looking at the play field, I think it's unique. I think it's doing something fresh. I think the pot bumper is a cool idea. It hasn't been done in a long while. I think what makes it a cool idea is that Scott also made that rail on the backside of that pot bumper. It's not so crazy chaotic next to the flipper.
    19:01
    You're pretty much getting two-thirds of a kicker, a rounded kicker, instead of just a pop bumper. And so, I don't know, man. I like the looks of this.
    19:12
    The one person I'm going to shout out, Kerry Hardy, is awesome that within an hour of the reveal of the teaser, he had a full-fledged video up, like a 20-minute video, and broke down everything. That man is just awesome when he comes to those things. Like if you haven't watched the video, it's just awesome. Go, go give Carrie Hardy a look. So, yeah.
    19:38
    I can't remember if you had any other questions other than that. So I was, I was lukewarm on it. Love the design. Yeah. Rick, Rick and Morty love it or leave it. I still think it's a home run no matter what. I mean, obviously it's a home run. They sold out in four hours.
    19:54
    So sure. Now I will also point out the, a fair counterpoint would be they also sold out of Rob Zombie, and that one hasn't had the longevity that some of the other ones have. Yeah, but Rob Zombie was only, what, 250? Yeah, it wasn't that much. It wasn't a ton.
    20:13
    And who was – oh, crap. I'm so sorry. I've listened to so many pinball podcasts in the last seven days. I can't keep them all straight. But someone was talking about – It's also 11 o'clock at night. Yes, that's true. But they were talking about the fiasco that Rob Zombie was, too. Like, people buying them, and then the hype was so unreal. And then, like, six months along, people were bored with their Rob Zombies, so they could sell them for higher than what they bought them for because Spooky wasn't producing them fast enough. with how Alice Cooper Nightmare Castles went, and it's went very smoothly and just on production. I don't foresee those kinds of problems with Rick and Morty.
    20:59
    And it does bring up a new predicament. I mean, there's only 750 of these. And this is, seems like a very desirable theme. Do you think it's going to create some chaos in the hobby? Like maybe Rob Zombie did? No, I don't. So let me, I'm going to answer my question now, and then we'll swing back around and talk about the chaos.
    21:24
    Well, actually, no, I'll talk about the chaos in the hobby. I don't think it will. I think it will be very smooth just like TNA was in that it felt like the production of TNA meshed very well with the demand. in that it didn't seem like people were flipping them over quickly, but there was, I guess, a healthy second market for them, but the prices weren't crazy high. They weren't crazy low. I would say that a reasonable hit on a pinball machine after it's new, at least within the first year, should be maybe 10%. And considering cars, I think that's actually a pretty good return on investment if you buy a machine for, let's just say, $5,500 and then you sell it for $5,000. But let's assume that you've had it in your in-home environment and you've had $500 to $1,000 plays on it. you're still getting value for your money, but you're able to do it in, in a home environment on a machine that is highly tuned as opposed to a location machine that you don't know what you're going to get.
    22:43
    And I felt that TNA, you can still get them for roughly about 90% of what the retail was. It seems that Rick and Morty is going to follow that same path and that there are some very diehard fans out there, which, and this gets back a little bit to the theme. The theme surprised me a little bit because it is outside of the wheelhouse of the 45-year-old guy with a game room, which is exactly my demographic, which is why when I hear of everything that Stern has put out. They put out Aerosmith. They put out other things. What are people's dream things? Oh, well, they'd want a Van Halen one. They'd want a Motley Crue one. They'd want a Def Leppard one or whatever.
    23:38
    That's all in my demographic of growing up in the 80s, really. And so when they talked about a Rick and Morty theme, the first time I had ever heard about Rick and Morty was with Ryan on Head to Head, and he talked about he would love a Rick and Morty theme, and I had no idea what he was talking about.
    24:00
    So I saw that as a positive thing in that they're branching out from my demographic. Now, I still want them, obviously, to cater to my demographic and to give machines that are in my wheelhouse, but it does make me happy that there are some alternative things out there. And Rick and Morty, it's certainly a niche theme. It's not a mainstream theme. So it caters to, hey, this is a fun, small thing. And it also works really well for Spooky. This would not be a good release for Stern or Jersey Jack because the volume just wouldn't be there. But this is a perfect game for Spooky. And I'm actually quite surprised that it sold out so quickly. but I am happy for Charlie and Spooky, and it really says how healthy the diversity in the field is. No, I agree. I don't know. I think it's a home run regardless. I think it's going to be good for Spooky. I mean, obviously, there's a $1,000 non-refundable deposit. They sold 750 of these. That's three-quarters of a million dollars in four hours. They got to be popping champagne over there or something, dude. They've got to be partying for Christmas. So I'm excited for them. It's perfect for their, you know, part of knowing your business is you have to ask some hard questions about knowing yourself and what are you trying to be.
    25:37
    That's the challenge with so many businesses is there's a mismatch on what they're trying to be versus what they really are. and Charlie has really focused on. We are a small town business and we are trying to make sure that we don't have these crazy swings in production and we have steady lines of production. And really, if they're producing about 10 games a week, 750 is probably their max because that's 75 weeks of production and you have to freshen up the lineup. You have to. So that's, you know, about a year and a half. And that seems about right for their development. So every year and a half, they put out a new machine. If you're always just making the same machine, eventually you're going to get stale. Congratulations to those guys over there. Hopefully we've reached out to Scott and we'll reach out to Charlie. We want to have them on the show sometime in the future. I know right now is probably not the best time. So, but yeah, I want to hear from those guys. And I bet you guys out there in Loser Kid Pinball land want to hear them too. So, moving on.
    26:54
    Rumors. The rumors that are ramping up this week are Stranger Things. I know that we've been talking about this for what? Okay, it's not really a rumor. I mean, Stern all but said that that's what it is when they're releasing it on their Facebook page and everything is, it is all stranger things. Yeah, it's officially unofficial. The rumors we're hearing, our sources are saying it's going to be released probably within the next week. We're hearing that we're going to be seeing stuff very, very soon. And if not, by time, knowing our luck, I'll edit this down and release it, and Stern will release the pictures and the videos. So that's how unshocked I'd be. But our timing is already better than everyone else in podcast land because everybody recorded their podcast. And then Spooky dropped Rick and Morty and showed exactly what it was. Yeah, and so people are like, oh, okay, well, there goes our podcast. So we at least have timing on that.
    28:04
    Yeah, that's true. Are you surprised at all by the timing of them releasing this, or do you just think, no, this is just how many releases they do in a year?
    28:15
    Yeah, that's how I feel. I feel they released Munsters last year, second or third week into January. They're kind of holding towards their schedule. And so this puts it right in line where they should be releasing a game. It doesn't, it's kind of, I guess not weird that they're releasing a week before Christmas, but maybe it's perfect. Maybe people are going to get those orders in so they can have a stranger things in their house by new year's. So, yeah, it's, I, I am surprised by the timing just because the, the demand for Jurassic park has been red hot. Yeah. So I'm wondering, since they have multiple lines, perhaps they just feel that, well, we can still keep Jurassic Park going on one of the main lines or a secondary line and still get this new one out. It's the same thing as we need to stay relevant and still make those things. So it does surprise me a little bit considering how well Jurassic Park is selling But I really happy that they uh it healthy And this is really this really should be in my demographic but I haven watched an episode yet Uh, I'm, I'm one of the three people on the planet who have not seen a Stranger Things episode. Um, so I actually, the closest I've seen is the parody on Saturday Night Live where it talked about stranger things gotcha okay okay it's it's a good show it's the first season's really good i had a kind of i didn't watch the second season fully until the third season come out and the third season was i was hearing was really great so i finished up season two and finished season three i think all within a week it was it was really good um okay the rumors that we're hearing Joe Lemire over at Head to Head said that the upside down is going to be a lighting effect. This is his guess, but this is what we're hearing rumor-wise. It's actually going to be a lighting effect. So the lights will be one way for when you're in normal world. And then when you're in the upside down, the lights will change and the play field will kind of be altered into the upside down that way.
    30:35
    The other rumor is there won't be a lower play field. That's been a lot of speculation because upside down is in the ground, so why wouldn't you put a lower play field in?
    30:47
    The funny part is we're probably saying all these rumors and then, like I said, they'll release the video.
    30:54
    Stern will do to us what Spooky did to everyone else. No, these are wild guesses and wild speculations. It's not like we have any information that no one else has out there. Correct. This is just us thinking, well, you know, the best way to analyze a company is to say, what would I do if I were in the company?
    31:16
    And so when you're looking at, that would be an easy way. Well, okay, easy may not be the right thing, but it would be a clever way of not having to alter the geometry of it, but have it appear differently. Does that make sense? Yeah. Um, um, I'd be really curious to see how they do it, uh, technologically though, because, um, you have such crazy different environments that these are getting played in. You have the home environment, you have the, the bar environment, the well lit, the low lit. Um, you know, I've never really noticed that Wizard of Oz is super low lit, but I also play in my basement. And so I can see pretty much the whole play field. But when I played either on location or someone's house where they have the lights low, I mean, it's really a different environment. And so having a special effect that is dependent on ambient light, I'm really curious to see what they come up with.
    32:17
    I hope it's something cool like black light. And then like, there's the, the play fields done in a certain way that when the black light turns on you, it emphasizes other things like you would normally have with black light. Like, I don't know. I, that's just a concept that comes to my head when we're talking about this. So, yeah, but honestly, there's not much more to say besides everything else. It's already been repeated since, I don't know, months ago. But the one thing I do want to bring up that Ken Cromwell of special and lit was talking about. And why do you think, because we keep talking about like, you know, there's been such a space between Jurassic Park and Stranger Things. You know, Jurassic Park was officially released in July, and now we're into December. It's almost a full six months, and that's not this typical Stern thing. But he says, why do we keep skipping over Elvira? I have a couple theories, but I want to hear your thoughts first, Scott. um elvira is one of those games that is made for the people familiar with the hobby uh elvira is not she she hasn't been making you know cassandra peterson hasn't really been making anything for the last you know 15 20 years right and so this is really hearkening back to um back to that day and then of course you have elvira and the party monsters you have scared And so the people in pinball are very familiar with Elvira. I would say pop culture has really moved past Elvira. And so the only the only group that she still resonates strongly with is the pinball crowd.
    34:01
    Obviously, it's a fun, it's a campy film. There's a campy show that used to be on late night before, you know, back in the day when TV actually signed off at the end of the day. You know, with the, do you ever remember that, Josh? That TV actually went dark.
    34:22
    I do, actually. Yeah, late at night. They played the Pledge of Allegiance, and then it went to, like, Attack of the Flies. And then it didn't come on until about four in the morning again. And that's really the time era when Cassandra Peterson's Elvira was in its heyday. So the challenge, too, is that it's an expensive premium machine.
    34:50
    And the volume, I don't know of anybody who's – so it's an expensive premium machine. It's a kapow title, and it's really going to cater to the pinball enthusiasts just like Black Knight did. I know I really like Black Knight. I think it's a fun game. However, if you don't know anything about pinball, you're not – very few people are going to look over and say, huh, there's a Black Knight over there. I want to go play it because they have no idea who the Black Knight is. They would think, is this an Ivanhoe game, a classic literature game? Yeah. But that's the reason why people just glance over it, because there isn't a pro version. And really, to be relevant on location, unless you personally own it or you know someone who owns it, you are going to forget about anything that doesn't have a pro game. I think the same thing happened to Beatles, and Beatles is a fantastic game. But people forget about Beatles just because of the premium price. And unless you know someone who personally has it, you're not going to play it.
    36:00
    That's very true. And honestly, those are the main reasons. I think you've hit it on the head. Honestly, I think the biggest thing is price. I think that pro is what keeps everyone chattering about your pinball machine. I think that's why Jersey Jack's trying to bring their prices down to be competitive it's just I think I think it's fine and dandy that there's premiums and le's and that's wonderful that we have those but I really think if you want to stay relevant in a market and sell a ton of pinball machines you're gonna have to have a pro-priced pinball machine that's that's just me I mean, look at Jurassic Park. I think that's why Jurassic Park is so loved and revered is because I can't think of another Stern game where we had three pros in Utah all out on location within the first month that it released.
    36:58
    And it's just like, you know, there's not a single Elvira in the state of Utah. You can't tell me that's – I don't know. I really think it comes down to price. I think that's what it comes down to. Yeah, of course it comes down to price. And that's where Stern wins. Stern has proven two things. One, yes, it is all about the theme. The theme is relevant. And two, yes, it is all about the price too. Because you have to be able to, you can't just cater to selling high-end toys to middle-aged dudes in their basements. because eventually, guess what? We're all going to get old and die. So you need to find ways of catering to the next generation and figuring out ways of getting them in. And if you do not have pros, you are going to become irrelevant in 10 years.
    38:00
    And that's what happened in the 90s, really, is pinball became irrelevant. They did not have a way of competing with PlayStation. yep playstation kills pinball well here's my thing though too is is right now the economy is really strong um or it it's going well enough that people can have a hobby like this to pay for pinball machines that's what it comes down to what happens when we have another 08 recession uh yeah you know uh high-end hobbies are the first thing that die yep they really are because Because right now, people can buy a machine. And you're seeing a little bit less of a turnover of some of these classic titles because they've become so expensive. Because as people who had some more disposable income decided to get in, however, housing prices are going up. And maybe people aren't going to be able to buy an arcade to put in their basement. And what happens is it starts with, well, I don't want 10 games. Maybe I'll have eight. Maybe I'll have six. Well, you know what? I'll just choose four. You know, I just need two. And it just slowly whittles down. And eventually you're going to see, I don't want to say a flood on the market, but you'll see a lot of games that start moving around as people start tightening their belts.
    39:33
    Well, and here's the other thing, too. Lord of the Rings, fantastic game. It's been around about $6,000 for the last year or so on average. I saw four in the last two weeks at $5,500 or less. And we're talking $5,000 to $5,500 and sitting.
    39:53
    I think we're starting to see some of those older games are going to sit. I don't know. We could go all night about pinball pricing and all that jazz. But like I said, I think what keeps you relevant is that lower price. That $5,800 is very, very nice compared to a $7,000 to a $7,500. I mean, it is what it is.
    40:19
    Well, it's a big price difference. When you look at – I know people say, oh, it's just $1,000 more, just $2,000. Well, okay. But when you're looking at – let's just do basic prices, $7,000 versus $5,000. And you're looking at about a 40% increase. That's huge. Let's move on to the next rumor. Let's just keep it really short and sweet.
    40:46
    Kaneda announced or broke the news that Hot Wheels is the next American pinball. Maybe not the next or it might be the one after. But Hot Wheels is a title for American pinball. Give me a 30-second thought.
    41:03
    Yeah, okay, I'll recognize it. But if you had told me it was Mario Kart, I'd be interested. If you're talking about Hot Wheels, I'm not really that interested. So this is where – and we're just talking theme alone, right? Am I going to be interested in the theme? Not really. Okay, so it's a car that – and I'm sure the ramps will be those orange – those orange ramps with the little guide things.
    41:36
    It's okay. It doesn't make me want to give up my quarter. What about you? I'm right there with you, dude. I remember playing with them as a kid. There probably can be some really cool stuff. It's one of those things. I'm going to have to see it before I, you're going to have to warm me up to the idea before I actually get excited for it. Yeah. It's, this is a little, this is a deviation from the eighties nostalgia wheelhouse that we have. Right. The 80s nostalgia wheelhouse really kicks in when you're 12 to 17. And that is I am aware of the world and I have a sense of what's cool and what's not. OK, between that era, which is that wheelhouse we're in right now, that 80s nostalgia wheelhouse and Hot Wheels isn't in there. And He-Man's in there. Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is in there. um gi joe would be in there um star wars would be you know just things like that where i i yeah it's it seemed relevant for that age demographic um hot wheels it's relevant for five-year-old like and my son who's nine he doesn't play with hot wheels and he's moved on my son doesn't either like my son has a whole collection of hot wheels and doesn't play with them yeah we do too i mean what what about a thomas the train pinball machine would you buy that no yeah neither would i so no like i said it's gonna be one of those things where that they have to they're gonna have to show us the product before i yeah and it basically okay and we're just talking the theme it's basically going to be a fast race car based thing uh you know and so okay fine like it can still be fun it'll be a racing game and so maybe it's a little bit more of a need for speed or something that lines so maybe that's a cheaper way of doing a uh a cosmic not a cosmic kart racing which is basically mario kart right um the mario kart license would even if nintendo licensed it would probably be more expensive so i the um my guess is that it's easier for them to build a racing theme that is recognizable without having to pay the Mario Kart premium So with the animations they could make it cool It just when we talk theme alone I don know I have to see how they implement it So on our last episode we talked about a story about Cactus Canyon and a gentleman saving one out of a boiler fire. And we challenged anyone that if they had their own stories, they were more than welcome to send them in and we would read them off on air, whether it be an epic pinball save, whether it be just a heartwarming story. A listener of the show, Michael Peterson, sent in his own pinball story. He wanted to share it with everyone. So let me pull this up really quick. Okay, this is Michael Peterson.
    44:39
    Hey, fellas, here's the story I'd like to share. So I've been in the hobby for almost three years, and I've done, I dove in headfirst. Like many of us, I built up a nice collection through buying, trading, and selling. Well, my best friend loves pinball as much as I do, but he just can't financially afford to buy one right now. He absolutely loves playing my machines and always talks about owning one someday. He's a great guy. He helps me clean and upgrade my games occasionally just because he's a great friend and he just loves everything to do with pinball, like myself. So for his birthday, I wanted to do everything I could to get him a pinball machine. I saved up some extra cash and a very nice seller worked with me on a good price for a Cleopatra, which was in very nice shape. I went and picked it up and brought it home. The next day I invited my friend over and showed him my next pinball machine. I wanted help cleaning and upgrading, asked him why he thought I wanted his help on this particular machine. Then I told him, because this is your pinball machine. Happy birthday, brother. I had never seen my best friend cry ever. Well, he did this day and it was awesome. Pay it forward. My friends, life is short at the end of the day, money and these machines really don't mean anything. It's just about the relationships we build and just living life.
    45:50
    I thought that was an awesome story, especially for this time of year. It was like, it's just perfect for the Christmas time of year. Exactly. My heart just grew three sizes. So, and that's a super awesome story. And that really is, that goes beyond friendship. And that's a, you are making a difference in someone's life. It seriously is an awesome story. I mean, good for you. That really is going above and beyond. Well, let's make a difference in someone else's life. How about, what do you say, Scott? Okay, let's talk about the giveaway. And refresh our memory about this awesome, sweet giveaway. So Brad Hunter of LitFrames.com said, Hey guys, let's do something fun. Let's give away a Superman 78 Translite. There was only 25 of these made signed by Christopher Franchi. He did them for Pinball Expo. and Brad Hunter was awesome enough to get a couple of them and he decided to give one away on our show. So thank you, Brad. We really appreciate it. Um, so what we did is if you liked our page, if you like the posts that we put along with commenting on it and sharing it, you got, uh, an entry for every time you did something of that sort. We had what, It was ridiculous. It was like been shared 30 times or something like that.
    47:13
    Let's see. It was shared 20 times, commented on 30 different times. It reached over 1,300 people. I mean, it was awesome. Just our page likes has went up. We really appreciate everyone that just joined in on the fun. You know what I'm saying? Yeah. And I'll point out, really, we're trying to do this to find a positive alternative to all the junk out there. And so the wider audience that we can reach and to expose to pinball and to make this fun and to give a little positive reinforcement in life, then that's great. And so these type of contests really do help us out in our goal.
    47:58
    Yep. All right. I think this is the moment everyone's been waiting for. So what I did is I printed off the page. I cut everyone's name up onto little pieces of paper, put it in one of our hats. Can you hear that, Scott? I can hear it, yeah.
    48:13
    Sweet. So I put it into one of our hats, and we will pull a name out of the hat. You ready for this? Let's do it.
    48:19
    Okay. There we go. Christopher Franchi. No. All right. uh katie no sorry kate haberman kate haberman looks like you won the superman 78 trans light we will get uh we'll catch up with you and along with brad and we'll get you your translate awesome congratulations that's awesome we had some kind of fireworks i'll add fireworks later and applause.
    48:54
    But yeah, awesome. You're, you're now the new proud owner of a Superman 78 trans light signed by Christopher Franchi. Yeah, it's actually pretty, uh, it's pretty amazing. Uh, like what, um, obviously, uh, Christopher has put these, these dreams themes out there and it certainly is. It's absolutely an amazing job, and it looks like a great thing to go into any pinball room. So that's pretty awesome.
    49:26
    Congratulations. Let's wrap this up with our holiday wishes for everyone and what we hope to see in the new year. Well, I would like to wish holiday wishes to everybody who's listened to our podcast. We do this because we find it fun. the hats we're trying to do things to just make this a great escape for life and so when there's so many other things out there I just want you to realize that there are good things in life and fun things and ways that you can actually use your hobby to break down so I'm going to reach out to everybody who has contacted us and people we have contacted through this podcast It's been a crazy year. Been able to talk to a crazy amount of people that I never really thought that I would be able to. And Josh and I, at least I've had a great time with Josh. And Josh has put his fair share of work in driving things behind the scenes. And so I just want to wish everybody a safe and happy holiday season and to wish next year to be even better.
    50:41
    I agree. um holiday wishes to all those that have also helped us along the way too um Martin from Head to Head has been really good to us giving us pointers same with Ken Cromwell of Special Unlit Zach Many, Dennis Creasel um there's names are slipping my mind there's so many people out there that have been generous enough to reach out and whether it just give us pointers on our show or just give us a slap on the back you guys have been fantastic I'm still so humbled that people even want to listen to us. Thank you, thank you, thank you for you guys that tune in every single two weeks that we do this and listen and just email us and whatnot. It's awesome to have met these people that we would have not met otherwise if we would have not done this. And let's also give a shout out to everybody who took a risk on two guys who they had no idea who they were. Eric being able to come on being our first big guest and he is an amazing designer I'm really excited about what he did Keith I know you're super busy buddy really appreciate you coming on and talking we would love to have you back love to have Eric back too but everybody we talk to loves to have Keith back now that he's had Jurassic Park out and be able to talk more about the development of it. And we had Bowen Cairns on. If you don't know who Bowen is, then just search any of the Google machines and you'll come up with him telling you how to play your game.
    52:17
    Also, Jeff Teolis coming on and being the new... Josh Sharp. Josh Sharp, exactly. Well, I was going to get there. I was going to say Jeff took over for Josh for the next year. but um i mean seriously anybody who has been able to come on we really do appreciate it and we know that you're doing it because you are trying to reach out uh to people too and we love being able to help interconnect people let's what what do you hope for in 2020 man i didn't even think about that. Um, you know what I hope for? I just, I hope pinball brings more people together. I hope that we, we put aside all of our differences. Um, those that need help, reach out, lend them a helping hand. Um, and we just, we have fun. We play some pinball and get to know each other better. Yeah. And I would say, I hope for more positive things in the hobby. Um, I it's every time you hear about the bad behavior of someone, it really does just make my head shake and think, really? This is – come up to speed. Let's just say – let's do a reset. Regardless of who you were in the past and maybe we are all evolving as a culture, let's all just try to reach out and just to be nice. That's crazy. Just be nice to everybody. And I'm not saying, hey, you have to agree with everything. You don't have the same politics. You don't have the same religion. You don't even have to have the same orientation. You don't have to have anything like that. But find a way just to look for the positive in the hobby and be able to reach out and maybe play a game with someone who is completely different than you. And it's amazing just to see that there are so many positive things to meet about every different person, even if you have nothing else in common other than pinball. Yeah, there's no better way to put it. So I'm going to end on this. I'm going to end on our friend Landon Orr. He just moved away from Utah and moved back to his home state of North Carolina. He's lived here with us for eight, ten years, somewhere around there.
    54:30
    But he left this note. This was our group here in Utah is called SLAP, the Salt Lake Area Pinballers. He just said, I just want to say thank you to everyone here in SLAP. Last night, I probably wouldn't have walked up into a random group of strangers to play pinball if it wasn't for slap six months ago i'd been sitting in my car outside the salt palace debating whether or not i should walk in to help a bunch of strangers set up a bunch of pinball machines i'm so glad i did that and every event after words was amazing it taught me that pinball folks are pretty good people my wife and i have had been a bit worried moving out to north carolina where we didn't know anyone but i knew that i'd find some good people out here playing pinball and slap taught me that our time with slap was so short but it meant so much to us i know we've made lifelong friends there we're excited to see everyone at gaming con um yeah it's just awesome that pinball has changed someone's life in the fact that you could go from utah to north carolina and feel like you're automatically included and welcomed in the community because you have fellow people in the pinball community. So awesome that that's, that helped. I don't know how to put it. Well, okay. In modern world, there's so many ways of building walls. There's so many ways of isolating ourselves, whether or not it's commuting in our car, working in our cubicle, coming home and watching TV or playing a video game. There's so many ways that we can isolate ourselves. And even, you know, even our entertainment has become solo entertainment. Like this is one way to break down some walls and actually just go and meet other people by interacting, you know, the way that, you know, we are, we're programmed to do as a species, we're programmed to be social, we're programmed to interconnect. And so just, you know, take that, you know, maybe one night when you're thinking, you know what, maybe I'll do a Rick and Morty binge or a stranger things binge. Maybe you say, you know what, maybe I'm going to text my buddies and let's go down and play some pinball. Yep. That's what it's all about, man. So, well, that's pretty much it for us. If you want to send us in a story or a comment, anything like that, hit us up at loser kid, pinball podcast at gmail.com. Uh, you can also hit us up at Facebook and Instagram. we're more than happy to listen to you and hear your wonderful stories that you guys have been sending us please do let us know if you want us to share them I mean I assume that you do if you're sending them to us but still and also check out on our Facebook page we are having our winter hat lineup getting set up again we really make very little on these things we just make enough so we can get people out hats we have some great beanies that we are going to be making for the first of the year. And so if you want to get in on the warm hat action, please just message us and we'll be able to hook you up with that. We will be making a batch of them, like Scott said, at the beginning of the year. These sweet new era ones with the pom-poms on top are fleeced lined. They are fantastic.
    57:46
    But yeah. Anything else, Scott? No, I think that's it. I want everyone to have an excellent new year and we'll see you around January. And we may have a pop, we may have a pop up if, uh, if they release a, uh, stranger things, a play field and we'll be able to see. Yep. We'll get, we'll see you guys in 2020. And also if you have any suggestions, our one year episodes coming up, shoot us some suggestions if you got anything for us. So.
    58:10
    All right. Later, Scott. All right. Thanks. See ya. Outro music.