Welcome everybody to Canada's Pinball Podcast. You do not have to wait long when you listen to this show. We're going to get right to it on episode 800 and something. Thank you for being a club member. So let's talk first. about Godfather, used sale prices. Then we're going to talk about Evil Dead. Spooky Pinball is most likely making this game sometime next year, the 1981 version of the Evil Dead movie. And then we're going to talk about the data. What did people vote for when I put up a poll about what were the themes you were most excited about in the pinball world as we head into 2024 and 2025. And it's going to shock you where people are voting. I'm surprised. And we got over 2,500 votes on these themes. So this is a pretty good sample of the pinball buying community. All right. So let's talk about this real quick. There's no avoiding this. You can, as of today, go buy a new in box Godfather LE for $10,699. Now that is a game that is brand new, unopened. We also have distributors trying to sell you this game for $12,000 firm, firm. And I'm looking at this marketplace and I'm saying, wait a minute. If you're a distributor and you're sitting on a Godfather LE for $12,000, how do you think you're going to find a buyer if someone is selling the same exact game for $10,699? How do you think you're going to find a buyer? That's $1,300 less money if you just buy the other person's game. and now what do you think these opened up godfathers are going to be worth it's just going to get worse and worse and worse for these games where there's not a lot of demand i think a lot of you out there are all in the same boat you want to see what's around the corner you don't want to buy into these games at these prices and now we're starting to see what's really going to happen the inventory is going to start to pile up with these distributors and what's going to happen then how are they going to order the next game? How is a distributor who's sitting on a lot of not just Godfather, but also Toy Story, who's also going to be sitting on a ton of Venom premiums, how are they going to write a big check to order new games like Elton John? How are they going to do it? We're definitely seeing a slowing down in the pinball market. And I also think a lot of it has to do with there hasn't really been a home run game since Godzilla. There hasn't really been a take my money now game like that game. Foo Fighters did really well. James Bond did okay. But we really haven't seen a game that just won over the imagination of the pinball buying community since Godzilla. Now look, if the year were to end today, absolutely Foo Fighters would win game of the year. It probably would win best art package of the year that or it would be Venom, which means Zombie Yeti is hoisting up the trophy regardless. But I really do think we're starting to see people be a lot more cautious because nobody really wants to lose money. Nobody. And now that we're seeing Godfather Ellie at 10,699, not even unboxed, what do you think all these opened up Godfathers are going to be worth? They're going to be worth much less than that right now. And then I think we're going to see these Godfather CEs just absolutely tank in value. They're going to be $12,000 by the end of the year. And all of this just speaks to a larger issue. It's not just Jersey Jack. It's a larger issue happening in pinball. It is going to be really hard to keep these prices this high and put these high prices on every single game you come out with, regardless of the theme, regardless of the demand, regardless of the toys in it. And I'm going to do a whole nother podcast about mechanisms and toys coming up soon, where we look at each company and we ask, hey, have they made a magical toy in the last like five or ten years. I think it's going to be really interesting when you see the criteria by which I'm going to say what really makes a good pinball toy, right? It's like why we see games like Medieval Madness still holding strong, like the values are holding so strong. A game that's like 30 years old still has some of the coolest toys in the history of pinball. So the other thing that's interesting too is, you know, we're seeing distributors like JJ at Game Exchange and he's like, make me an offer on Toy Story CE and Toy Story LE because I have them new in box. He won't even put a price on what he wants for those games. Make me an offer. Isn't make me an offer I can't refuse a godfather line? But it's all speaking to a larger issue. And for all of you out there who have waited this out, if you've waited on the sidelines like Kaneda, it is going to be a really great 2024 for you because if you want any of these games, you're going to be able to march in and get any of these games for thousands less than if you bought them in 2023. How is that not a good thing? And I think it's going to send a message to all of these manufacturers. You just went a little too far, maybe a lot too far, but you really hit the ceiling and then some, and I think people are going to hit pause more and more. All right. So speaking of that, do we think spooky pinball has a hit theme on their hand with Evil Dead. So here's what I'm hearing. Evil Dead is going to come out. It is a standard body game. The main mech in the game is the cabin that's in the movie. I think it's going to be the original movie from 1981. Maybe it's going to be Evil Dead 1 and 2. I think fans of that franchise are hoping it's both of those, but I'm hearing that Spooky has that theme. Now, some of you are like, Kaneda, you already said it's Looney Tunes and you said it's the Princess Bride. Well, I'm also hearing Spooky has three titles secured, so they could easily be working on all three of these titles. Okay, so we will see what happens. They've still got a ways to go with all these Scooby Doos to build. I think we'll probably see a new Spooky machine sometime in the middle of next year All right so let get to the data So I ask people what themes are you most excited about Which ones have you the most excited? Now, you know me, I always harp on this. I think pinball companies do very little market research. Market research means you don't make Galactic Tank Force. Market research means you do not make Toy Story 4 only. market research would show you you do not do the Godfather pinball. If you simply go by your gut or pick a theme that might be popular somewhere else, like Godfather is hugely popular with the movie and the cinema buffs, but is it a good theme for pinball? No. Will it have tons of crossover with the pinball buying demographic? No. Simply because it's not a good theme and it's also a very old property. Now, that does not mean that old properties can't work. You know, it's another old property. I love when people complain about Jaws. Another old property that came out right when Jaws came out is a little movie called Star Wars. So that works really well in pinball format. So I asked people out there to vote and they could vote more than once on which games they're most excited about from a theme point of view. Here is what we got back. And I'm going to read these in order of most popular, which means most people want these themes in pinball, to the least popular. All right. Are you ready? Let's do this. Number one on the list out of 2,653 votes. That's a good sampling of this pinball market. Number one, number one with 409 votes is a little theme called Back to the Future. Obviously, this is a game that a lot of people want. it's had a pinball machine before it was never a great machine and so if they can make this game and you could just base this on the first movie I think it would be great to base it on the first two movies because the second one is a lot of fun as well I mean who wouldn't want a hoverboard happening in a pinball machine right I don't think we need the third one so I think you just do the first two so back to the future that's a take my money now theme for a lot of people it's a take my money now theme for me personally. I launched Pepsi Perfect when Pepsi was a client at Comic-Con. I love this movie. It's perfect for pinball. The hard part is getting the assets, but if anyone can do it, it's going to be Stern Pinball. And we're hearing rumors. I mean, this has been a rumored game forever. If it does happen, I think it's going to be a Joe Kamnikow game. It's going to be a Kapow title. And gosh, you know, as much as we complain about high prices right now, If Back to the Future comes out, may we all tell our wives and partners and kids, we're not going on vacation this year because whatever it takes, we're going to go get it. Number two, a very close second with 396 votes is Jaws. And I was surprised by this because a lot of people have been down on Jaws. But here's why I think people are loving this theme. And I think it's going to do super well is that we know it's real. It's coming like this isn't just pure speculation. We also know it's going to be Keith Elwin. So I think Jaws is going to really surprise people. I think it's going to be a humongous hit. If I were you, I would at least get on a distributor's list for Jaws right now. Mark my words, it's going to be hard to get. After that, it gets really interesting. The next highest game with 196 votes is He-Man. A lot of people voted for He-Man. And you know, we hear a lot of polarizing things like it's too much of an 80s cartoon. I was just too old when it came out, or I was too young when it came out. But He-Man Masters of the Universe is a great theme for pinball. If they do it right and get the original clips, I think it can work really well. So after He-Man, with 186 votes, is another game that is a recent rumor that we are hearing. Might be a Keith Elwin game or a John Boer game, and that is John Wick. So John Wick is at the top of this list. It's a contemporary theme, and I think that's why John Wick has a lot of votes. I think people just want some new themes in pinball. We're tired of always looking backwards. Now, John Wick doesn't have the nostalgia factor, but it's an awesome movie, and if done right, I think it can make for a great pinball machine. After John Wick, with 177 votes, is the Tim Burton classic Beetlejuice. Beetlejuice would be a great theme for pinball. They just greenlit the sequel to the movie. It's going to be in culture again. It's always been in culture. I think Beetlejuice is one of these great evergreen properties. I think it would be the first Tim Burton movie made into a pinball machine. And I would love, I would love, love, love to see them make a Pee-wee's Big Adventure game, considering Pee-wee is no longer with us. So after Beetlejuice, with 164 votes, is The Matrix. Wow, The Matrix this far down the list, a little surprising for me, but another one where there's four movies, two of which are terrible. Matrix 1 and 2 are the ones you'd want to make the pinball machine on. I actually would just make it based on the first movie only. I kind of feel like this trilogy didn't really work out, and then the fourth one is just terrible. So Matrix, if done right. Now, the rumor is this is going to be Dutch Pinball's next game. And I think if Dutch makes this game, the way they integrated the Lebowski, if they integrate the Matrix in pinball format, I think this game is going to be a knockout hit. Now, after the Matrix, surprising this one is this far down the list. With 159 votes, Harry Potter, the most expensive pinball license of all time, apparently, $10 million just to get it. But Harry Potter, you know, you think it would be more at the top of the list, but this kind of makes sense. Because Harry Potter isn't really within the 40 to 60 year old male demographic. It's not really the fantasy theme that you grew up with because you grew up with Star Wars. You grew up with Star Trek. You grew up with Lord of the Rings. And so Harry Potter you know has a humongous fan base around the world But does it carry over into the pinball buying demographic And would getting the assets you need to make it right be worth spending 10 million on the license And it starting to look like the answer is no. So after Harry Potter, one of my favorite movies of all time with 136 votes is Top Gun. Now look, I'm very biased here. Top Gun is a take my money now theme for me. I think it's perfect for pinball. I think you can make either movie and it would work for pinball. Both of them are incredible. And we would love to see a Tom Antonio Cruz pinball machine for the first time. I also think because it's a Tom Antonio Cruz movie, that's why we'll probably never see it. Because I hear he's a nightmare to get approval for his licensing permission. All right, after Top Gun with 107 votes is The Evil Dead from Spooky Pinball. Now look, for Spooky to make Evil Dead work, they really only need to sell between 750 or 1,000 of them. And I think if they license a theme like this, there's enough fan base around the world for Evil Dead for Spooky Pinball to sell 1,000 units. What I don't think we're going to see from Spooky is another double run, like one layout over two themes. I also don't think they're going to sell 2,000 games like Scooby-Doo. It's too much. I think they need to figure out a better model moving forward. Everyone who buys a Spooky game now, the first time they open the order banks, you guys are all losing money. And who's going to rush in again to buy a Spooky machine right away? If you just wait, you can then go get the machine for much less money than if you commit your dollars to them. And remember, all the Spooky deposits are non-refundable. So it really is a silly, silly thing to do is to give any of these companies non-refundable deposits, especially seeing the way the market has cooled off so much. So after the evil dead with 101 votes, a little surprising it's this far down the list is Indiana Jones. Now look, the reason why I think Indiana Jones, people are kind of like, eh, like, is it going to be the original movies we love? Is the studio going to make them do the most recent film, which was just okay. The last two ones were just okay. They were sort of mediocre. I think if you make this game, you've got to make it based on the first three movies everybody loves, but I don't see them doing that. And I don't want all five of them in one pinball experience. And we already have one of the best Indiana Jones pinball machines ever in the Bally Williams game. So it's a weird game to try to go remake. Stern tried it and they failed horribly. So that is why I think people are sort of like, eh, we don't really need another Indiana Jones. After Indiana Jones with 84 votes is Sonic the Hedgehog. Who has this license? We know that someone took it from American Pinball. We just don't know who. I can't imagine it's not Stern. Now look, I would love to see a Sonic the Hedgehog pinball machine. You gotta do the loop-de-loops. You gotta collect the gold coins. It would be perfect for pinball. Now look, Super Mario Brothers would be better, but we all know we're never getting a Super Mario Brothers pinball machine in modern time. But I think Sonic the Hedgehog, done right, with the colorful world of Sonic the Hedgehog, would be a great pinball machine. That's why I'm not surprised Sonic got a somewhat decent amount of votes. After that, with 82 votes, is Metallica Vault Edition. And so, look, I'm not surprised. People don't want to pay the high prices for Metallica. I'm not excited by, really, any Stern Vault Editions, unless it's Lord of the Rings and unless it's Tron. Those are the only two ones I would love to see them redo, fix the artwork and make some enhancements on the game packages overall. You don't need to do that with Metallica. It's already come out in so many trims. And what are you going to do to enhance it? So like, I don't know why we need more. After that with 80 votes is Twilight Zone Remake. And after that with 69 votes is Whitewater 2. So some of these classic games, you know, people definitely would buy them. If Twilight Zone came back, they would not have a problem selling it. I think the real issue would be how much do you charge for a Twilight Zone remake? How much would you pay, right? They made a lot of them. They're floating all over the pinball space. I think the thing about Twilight Zone is this. It is loaded. It's not the best game from a gameplay standpoint. And it's a little bit overrated. I know, I know, don't kill me. But I do think Twilight Zone, out of the older games, I do think it's a little bit overrated. I would rather have an Addams Family, a Totem. there's just other games from that period that I think are better medieval madness attack from Mars like those games are just better pinball experiences Twilight Zone is a game that like newbies just fall in love with it's like Wizard of Oz they walk up to it and they see so much stuff that it just wins them over by the sheer amount of stuff that's going on under glass but here's the thing people put a Twilight Zone next to a Godfather CE and a Venom LE and one is 13,000 and one is $15,000. Twilight Zone looks like in the current marketplace, it would cost $37,000. So I don't know how they're going to make this game and price it. But man, if they can get the price right, you know, how come CGC can figure out how to put everything and then some into Cactus Canyon and only charge people $9,000? Why is Stern charging for a game like Venom with so little in it? And that's the other reason why I think people are just like, huh, it doesn't make sense. Like, it doesn't make sense. These guys are totally over-inflating the price with greed. It's not getting into the game. And that's why people are just hitting pause and saying, nope, I don't see the value. All right, so after Whitewater, we've got with 56 votes a Big Bang Bar remake. All right, well, that's a rumor that's been floating around. I think out of all these remakes, we're most likely going to see Big Bang Bar unveiled at Chicago Expo in October by Pedretti Gaming in partnership with Planetary. That's my bet. Now we're getting towards the end of the list. And this is a problem for a company that you know all too well After that with just 50 votes is Elton John And if you Jersey Jack and you need your next pinball machine to be a hit like Elton John is coming people and you see it this far down the list of what people are excited about, I think someone needs to raise the red flag over at JJP. They need to call a huddle and they need to figure something out because this is not working. These are not the themes people want. And they need to get their ducks in a row. And I think the sad reality is Jack Guarnari, his name is on the company. He's the one who's been steering the ship on theme selection. He's the one who picked Toy Story 4. He's the one who picked Godfather. He's the one who picked Elton John. I don't get it. I really don't get it. It's a head scratcher. After Elton John with 49 votes is the Princess Bride. I totally understand why this niche movie is all the way down here. It is a cult classic. And again, I think if Spooky just made like 500 of them or 1,000, I think they would find buyers for it. But it's definitely not one of the more popular themes out of all the rumors we're hearing about. And then right after that with 46 votes is Looney Tunes. So again, here we're in the section of if I had themes that were only getting this many votes, I would be nervous. I think all these themes right now, Looney Tunes, Princess Bride, Elton John, you know, I think you're starting out with two strikes. Nobody's on base, right? When you have Back to the Future, it's bases loaded and a 3-0 count. And the next pitch is a fastball right down the middle. That's what's going to happen with Back to the Future. That's what's going to happen with Jaws. But man, when you've got Looney Tunes and Princess Bride and Elton John, I think you're staring down the barrel of a gun. And if you don't get it right in this marketplace with these prices, it's going to be really, really difficult for these companies to justify some of these themes and some of these prices. All right. The final four with 36 votes. Marty Robbins is War of the Worlds. All right. Well, look, not very popular. I don't know if we're ever going to see the game. I think Haggis is saying that they're going to fill up a container. I've been reading this on Pinsight. Everyone's getting all excited. They've never been able to fill up a container. Here's the one thing I'm asking of Marty and Damien. If you fill up a container, can you do us a favor? Take a picture of it. I would love to see you finally, after three years, fill up a freaking shipping container for the people who put deposits down on these games so they don't have to spend like $1,800 on like air freighting the machine to their house. All right. After that, the final three with 24 votes, Jurassic Park 30th Anniversary Edition. We don't want any more Jurassic Parks. I think people know if they do this, it's going to be like an Elvira 40th and Stern's going to try to charge $25,000 and that's why nobody's really excited for it. After that, this is shocking with 18 votes, Avatar, Avatar. And we know the rumor is that Jersey Jack might have Avatar. That might be Mark Sadan's game. I hope it's not Avatar now because it's second to last. The only game it beat out on this list with just six votes was Food Truck. Food Truck. It's rumored that American Pinball might be making a single level version of Barry O's Food Truck. The six votes here were probably from the employees at American Pinball. So there you have it, people. A really interesting journey into the themes that are rumored, how excited people are. And if I was just to have a crystal ball, I think Stern's got the big themes ready to go. I think Jersey Jack does not. I think American pinball is lost. I think spooky pinball is going to be fine. They're going to pick themes that they know they can sell like a thousand of, and they've got a little niche community. But spooky pinball needs to get their quality up. But otherwise, I'm never really worried about spooky, because as much as we say, oh, we're never buying from them again because of the quality, and then this, and then that. And then every time they launch a game, because they're so damn friendly and nice, we buy it. and it's a no-fail purchase, you know you're going to get it. I think CGC is going to be fine with Pulp Fiction. And then Mark Ritchie has another game coming out after that. One of these might be Mark Ritchie's game. So that's exciting. You know, we hear American Pinball might have He-Man. And if you look at this, He-Man is number three on the list. So if you're David Fix and you have He-Man, why would you make Galactic Tank Force? Why would you waste a day even bothering with original IP stuff when you've got the third most popular theme on this list voted by 2,653 people. You've never sold 2,653 games. So look, this market research is important. You know, what's interesting about this industry is they always want to keep everything secret. They want to create FOMO on launch day, and that's why they never tell you what their release schedule is going to be. And I think it's starting to bite some of these companies in the rear end, and it doesn't always work. You can't implement the same marketing strategy regardless of theme, regardless of what the game is. If American Pinball got out in front of people more with Galactic Tank Force, the reception would have been different. Same thing with Godfather. Same thing with Toy Story 4. You've got to give people time to warm up to stuff that is not stuff they really want. You've got to convince them. What do I know about marketing? I've only been doing it for 20 years. Everybody, thank you for being a member of the Canada Club. More shows probably coming this week. If not Friday, you're going to get Saturday Morning Spectacular. Thank you. Let me know in the comments section which of these games you are most excited for. We'll talk to you soon. Good night, bad night, sweet night, bad night, sweet night, bad night.